SAIL vs POWER

[brian eiland]

Yachting magazine has a fairly new page at the end of each issue titled "In Our Wake"

The Aug 07 issue had a rather interesting observation:
"In 1987, Yachting focused about 80% of its coverage on SAIL"

I spoke about going back thru some older issues (early 60's) of Rudder mag when I wrote this posting on Rhodes & Alden Motorsailers (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16721). Well mixed in with some of these old issues of Rudder were also some old issues of Yachting. What a contrast between the amount of coverage of the subject of sailing compared to that of power boats.

No need to get either side offended....just an observation

[longliner45]

interesting concept..at most pionts ,,boats are boats,,for example planing hulls come from power boats ,,but some high teck sailboats have planing hull sterns,,,,,,,go figure,,allways something to learn,longliner

[Frosty]

And the observation is?

Who or what gets more coverage now than before?

[longliner45]

what ever generates more income,for sure,,,,money talks,but also interesting because so many applications of boats,,I only hope those power boat guys will learn,,longliner

[Frosty]

Well round here there is no wind. There are lots of sail boats but most are in transit and although some stay round here for years, they finally move on.

Racing is a problem sometimes (most times ) races are called off for no wind. Time after time the boats havnt got enough speed to cross the start line against a 1 Kt tide.

I had 2 yachts here and as I intend to stay I bought power. I have had many a discussion with Yachties who agree.

Not only that,- fuel is cheaper here than in most places.

[alan white]

Going back to the subject of the general trend all over changing (as it has, meaning a shift to power boats away from sailboats), I would guess it has a lot to do with the general exposure of the current boating generation to hands-on concepts. There are also hardly any more basement train-sets that used to be common. Nor do kids build as many model cars, planes, etc. nowadays.
In a world that has changed from you-do-it to we'll-do-everything-for-you, things that go at the touch of a button will always be more popular.

alan

[brian eiland]

I think you are right Alan.

BTW Frosty, what part of Thailand are you in?

I saw over the years the power market increase its share of the marketplace up to 80%, backed off to 75, then back up to greater than 80. It will be interesting to see what the future brings as the world oil markets climb towards the $100 per barrel that I've forecasted to happen (maybe only briefly) this year (before Jan 08).

[brian eiland]

Who or what gets more coverage now than before?
If you picked up an issue of "Yachting" magazine (American mag) now you would be hard pressed to find any sailing subjects. I would guess it is 97% power.

In contrast pick up an issue of "Yachting World" (English mag) and get a great diversity of boating discussions.... probably bias toward sailing.

[messabout]

Commentary on economics: Some really bright investors, Warren Buffet and others of his ilk, are betting that oil price will go to $100/bbl and beyond. That is to happen in the fairly short term. What the hell, it is at $70 today. If the hundred dollar and up predictions become a reality, some changes in propulsion preference are likely to follow. We do have a finite amount of dino oil reserve.

I certainly like the push button convenience of power boats but there is a limit to my discretionary funds.

Truth to tell, much of the power boating community consists of posers. Marina Queens and all that. Why is it so important that we appear important?

Given the near certainty that fuel prices will escalate, maybe prohibitively, is there a chance that the pendulum will begin to swing toward sail? If so maybe there will be fewer Jet Skis.

Social commentary: Alan is right when he suggests that people, these days, are less inclined to do things that may take some energy, ingenuity, craftsmanship, and sweat. Let us raise our glasses to those old timers who created things themselves.

[brian eiland]

That is to happen in the fairly short term. What the hell, it is at $70 today.
Don't know what country you live in, but I think it topped 80 today

It will only take some sort of little hic-up to drive it further

[brian eiland]

Here's a reference to another forum discussion of fuel prices entitled $ 2.00 Gas
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/552-2-00-gas.html

[yipster]

$ 2.00 gas ? we pay that here the litre, € 1.50

[Bergalia]

$ 2.00 gas ? we pay that here the litre, € 1.50

Bugger it - let's invade Iraq.....

[SAQuestor]

Bugger it - let's invade Iraq.....

No! No! No! Been there done that. Oh, wait. It was NEVER about the oil. :!: WMD's - not there. Nukes - not there. 9/11 sponsor? Nope, not that either. Finish what daddy started? Probably.

But hey, there's a coalition of 36 - so 'he' says - helping out in Iraq.

Maybe 'he' can get a few more for taking over all the oil in Iran. Oops. It's not about the oil - is it? :rolleyes:

[Willallison]

I think that it's mostly the way people use their boats that has resulted in the massive swing from sail to power. Few are interested in doing extended offshore passages - in fact few do extended inshore passages! Time is short - they want to 'get away from it all' for the weekend (that they insist on taking their aircon, dvd's, coffee makers, etc, etc is a matter for another discussion...;) ) And the reality is that for the most part power makes more sense for these people. Here in Tassie - for a long time, one of the last strongholds of sailboating - I guess the split these days is somewhere around 50/50. But on any given weekend - apart from those who are racing - I would guess that 90% are operating under power, regardless of vessel type. Why suffer the compromises that a sailboat brings if you're hardly ever going to sail it? I don't mean that as any sort of criticism - but whacking a bloody great stick thru the middle of a boat, with all it's attendant bits of wire and rope, does have some bearing on things!

As for the crystal ball, I don't think that that we'll see much in the way of change. There are a lot of cashed up people out there. They do 50 hours a year in their boats. It matters not if fuel is $50 or $200 per barrel. There will always be those who are after more efficient solutions, but they are the vast minority and are already there. We may see their numbers grow somewhat, but I suspect they will still be in the minority.
The hole in my wisdom will be if it becomes socially unacceptable to be seen as a resource waster. The day that conspicuous consumption is seen as a character flaw rather than a mark of ones success... that'll be the day when the bottom will fall out of the guzzler market.
But blow-boater's... don't hold your breath... we consumers are a greedy bunch!:D

[OceanFlorida]

Hi brian eiland,
With my opinion power boat is better than sail boat.and also for this topic you mind sharing that on splashvision.com. I go there a lot and I am sure the guys over there would really getting detail information about boat.

[brian eiland]

I think that it's mostly the way people use their boats that has resulted in the massive swing from sail to power. Few are interested in doing extended offshore passages - in fact few do extended inshore passages! Time is short - they want to 'get away from it all' for the weekend (that they insist on taking their aircon, dvd's, coffee makers, etc, etc is a matter for another discussion...;) ) And the reality is that for the most part power makes more sense for these people.

Will, I would have to agree with all that you have said.
Brian

[alan white]

On a nearby lake there are few sailboats. Those few I've seen only appear once a week during the summer for a small, well organized regatta. Average age of the sailors, maybe sixty.
Mostly, I see a few runabouts, pontoon boats, and jet skis. I also see a few canoes and kayaks, usually occupied by older folks.
Kids today are not sailing, rowing, or paddling at all, apparently. They are seen on jet skis a lot, and younger kids are "in training" as their parents pull them around and around (often with 200 hp boats) on plastic blow-up toys.
So in resonse to the notion that people today have little time to spend dealing with setting up or dealing with sailboats, witness the kids, aged 10 through 18, who have the whole summer off, but not a one is doing any sailing even though they live on a lake.
We sailed a lot when my daughter was small. We had small boats, easy to launch and retrieve and transport and store. No engines to winterize, no registration every season. The 12 ft O'day Widgeon was a perfect boat for quick getaways.
This is all about consciousness. Leisure time is not enhanced by horsepower and noise, I'm sure. Canoes and kayaks are as predictable and reliable as outboard motors, and far quieter. I would add that sailing is predictable and reliable if the boat can also be rowed or lightly motor-powered, but looking around I see that it must be that time and schedules aren't really so important since few sailboats are set up to row efficiently.
I would say the primary reason for motoring instead of sailing is that generation by generation, the idea of time itself has changed. People nowadays are far more aware that time is slipping away. Everything is measured. Nobody appears to be doing what they want to be doing when they're driving cars. They all tailgate if the one in front is only doing the speed limit and not ten over. They see transportation as time wasted, a kind of necessary evil. Even on vacation, around here in vacationland, people are in a huge hurry. They all appear to be going to the same places, so there are traffic jams and crowds.
I think what is happening is that the hurriedness of everyday living is transmitted to everything people do, even in supposed leisure time.
Given a few moments of free time at home, people go for a walk but they look busy even while they walk, listening to music or on the cell phone, or just a bit too aware of the exercise component, swinging their arms unnaturally. Time is money, or at least just being is not a good idea.
Motoring (in leisure) gives many folks a false sense that time is not being lost, never to be retieved. Ground is being covered rapidly. Scedules will be met.
Product reliability is at an all-time high. Engines don't konk out very often.
Death might even be avoided if people could just stay ahead of it.
Death, pollution, erosion, depletion of resources like oil, minerals, and clean water. If their boat can go fast enough, all of those things might just recede into the haze behind their wake.
This, I think, is what has changed. Culture runs away from guilt, from what it has done, and in doing so, only creates more to run from.
From a distance, it feels as if this culture is a powerful car racing along to nowhere, tossing garbage out of the windows, which disappears to the passengers seconds later. Yet the road ahead is already littered with other's garbage.

Alan

[messabout]

Willallison you hit the nail on the head. We're going to give up our power boats when conspicuous consumption becomes anathema or when we have insufficient money for fuel.

Economist newspaper publishes an encyclopedic book; "The World In figures". Among the incredible array of listings are the worlds largest businesses. Of the top 5, in terms of gross sales dollars, three are petroleum outfits. Of the top twelve, six are petroleum companies. Of those six of twelve, their revenue is 52% of the total of all twelve. If you are wondering who is the top dog, it is Wal-Mart. Second is BP, followed by Exxon, Royal Dutch/Shell then General Motors. Daimler, Toyota and Ford follow. General Electric is ninth, they're in the energy business too but not directly petrochemical. GE is a large consumer of petroleum for conversions to plastics and such and of course those GE jet engines use a considerable quantity of fuel. Tenth is Total Fina Elf, then Chevron Texaco and Conoco Phillips. (Leave it to the Brits to tabulate all that heady stuff)

So every damned one of them except Wal-Mart is directly involved in the depletion of oil reserves. Wal-Mart is responsible for the use of a lot of fuel as well, on account of all those container ships bringing Chinese stuff to the marketplace. The US market is listed as the largest user of oil at two and a quarter trillion tonnes (note British spelling) per year. All that is scary, don't you think? Do those numbers lend some credibility to words like "finite supply"? 'Scuse me, I'll get off the soapbox and go crank up my power boat for a while. For what it's worth I have a sailboat too.

P.S. "the sky is falling down" : C. Little

[Jimbo1490]

We do have a finite amount of dino oil reserve

Yes finite if you think of several thousand years as finite. We have more oil now than we ever did ITO discovered reserves, but we don't go after it. Here in Florida it is illegal to even look for it. We now know the Gulf of Mexico has more oil than all of the middle east. Ditto for the south Atlantic. Ditto for the Russian fields. Then there's shale oil. Every time we look for oil we find it. There is FAR, FAR more oil left in the ground than we have used altogether.

One day I hope we'll wake up from this silliness and adopt policies that reflect the reality of the world as it is, not the 'pie in the sky' so many want it to be. But I doubt that will happen in my lifetime.


Jimbo

[alan white]

When it burns, it pollutes. Maybe the supply is infinite. If so, the pollution may well be too.
It is conceivable that several minutes of blasting around in one's cigarette boat could convert more oil to pollutants than an African villager would in a lifetime. Both, however, breathe in the same amounts of polluted air.
It's hardly fair.
Just food for thought.

[messabout]

Alan, you are an astute observer as well as an accomplished philosopher. It seems to me that old line boat builders become a very practical lot, perhaps out of neccesity. Practicality also appears to be a trait, widely subscribed by old line Down easters. Will has posted some keen observations about reality.

I disagree with Jimbo but do not denounce him as a conspiricy theorist. It is remotely possible that he is onto something that has escaped most of us.

Brian, you started a thread in good faith and it has morphed into geopolitical discourse. More's the pleasure for we forum junkies.

Fair winds to all. (no offense intended toward power boaters)

Gene

[alan white]

Not just power boats, of course. In fact, few put many miles on pleasure craft. Road vehicles to a far greater degree, and homes.
At some point in the USA, the trend towards less consumption reversed. Certainly, the Bush administration has done whatever they could to increase the sales of gas-guzzlers through removing the luxury tax on SUVs. I can only assume that the president has interests in the oil business.
But enough of that. It's the way people live, and if they can't behave, then presidents like that will be elected to legalize their misbehaviour.
The problem isn't power boaters. They can't afford enough gas to make a difference unless they're rich, in which case their numbers drop off dramatically.
I am glad personally that I haven't a penchant for big horsepower. I can't afford it at all. Those who do, I know it's a personal thing, and not a personality defect.
Concern about pollution and resources is something we all have to work out on our own. The government won't give us the truth. In fact, it appears they are dangerously close to leading us into trouble by knowingly lying.
The answer, as always, is to think for ourselves.

A.

[longliner45]

its not up to the government to give us the truth,,,,,,ya gotta use your own brains,,,and make your own choises,,,,,im with ya alan,,longliner

[yipster]

power is only here the last 100 years, before we sailed for thousends of years
most sailboats today have power but only little is done putting sails on powerboats again

[bgeddes]

My ignorant observations:

In high school I did some sailing on the Great Lakes in other folks boats, family friends etc. I truly enjoyed the spirit of the sailing vessel. MANY of the power boaters were, in my opinion, incompetent to the point of near dangerous. They could start and move their boat, but the though of leaving th marina seemed to terrify them. They were all about the gadgets and glamor of boating. One of the boats I was on was owned by a school teacher, it was an older, not so fancy 32' craft. As sound and well kept as they get, but no showpiece. Many of the marina rats scorned the age and averageness of our boat. They did it every morning as we headed out across the lake to our next stop. Not all power boaters were like this, and many sail boat owner were the same way. It just seemed that more of the fossil fuel hog owners were all about the self image.

On a similar note, I have been a kayaker for about 10 years. Of late, it's a fad. LOTS of kayaks being sold. Not so many paddled, not much anyway. Friends of mine bought boats and we wer talking about going paddling. They could not believe that I can/do paddle for 20+ miles a day on a slow river. The fact that it takes hours and effort was foreign to them. For me, that is the joy. The quiet peace of me and the water. Their kayaks are far more expensive and fnacy than mine, but I put 100 times the miles on my humble little craft.

[longliner45]

kinda like tread mills,,,,,,a used one is as good as a new one ,,,,,,,low miles

[hiracer]

If it's cold, raining, and windy . . .

On a sailboat you tack or jibe and grind the winches to warm up.

On a motorboat, you turn up the heat, drink more hot chocolate, and adjust the windshield wipers.

Each of these activities appeals to a different segment of the population, and neither understands the other.

Clearly, passive entertainment has been growing for years in the U.S., not just in boating, and we have the waistlines to prove it.

[Vega]

In contrast pick up an issue of "Yachting World" (English mag) and get a great diversity of boating discussions.... probably bias toward sailing.

A big bias toward sailing:D and I like it that way;)

For the ones that want to enjoy a very good magazine at a fair price, there is a digital edition now.

[Vega]

Probably the percentage of sailboats versus motorboats in a boatshow shows the relative importance of both markets.

I left out exclusively sailboat or motorboat shows and had a look at those percentages on some of the world’s most important boat shows.

According to the data that I post below, it seems we can divide the world in three categories:

The American, the Russian and the Asiatic are mostly motorboaters.

The Canadian and the Australian have a more significant sailing market.

The European and the kiwis have a sailboat market that almost equals the motorboat market.

I believe that in the future we will see an increase in the sailboat share of the global European yachting boat market and I believe that has to do mostly with the growing ecological concern of the European.

Boat Asia
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 4%
Powerboats: 30%
Japan International Boat Show in Yokohama
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 5%
Powerboats: 50%
Moscow International Boat Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 7%
Powerboats: 60%
Miami International Boat Show & Strictly Sail Miami
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 10%
Powerboats: 52%
Fort Lauderdale International Boat Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 3%
Powerboats: 60%
New York National Boat Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 2%
Powerboats: 54%


Toronto International Boa Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 10%
Powerboats: 43%
Melbourne Boat Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 1%
Powerboats: 77%
Sydney International Boat Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 10%
Powerboats: 25%



Auckland International Boat Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 15%
Powerboats: 25%
Grand Pavois de la Rochelle
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 30%
Powerboats: 45%
hanseboot - International Boat Show Hamburg
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 25%
Powerboats: 26%
boot Düsseldorf
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 20%
Powerboats: 31%
Salon Nautique International de Paris
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 22%
Powerboats: 39%
Stockholm Floating Boat Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 41%
Powerboats: 51%
Scandinavian Boat Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 32%
Powerboats: 43%
HISWA Amsterdam boat show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 20%
Powerboats: 20%
Southampton International Boat Show
Composition of show:
Sailboats: 14%
Powerboats: 34%