Ok, its time has come

[dem45133]

With two summers of fishing Lake Erie under my belt I have a question...

I almost, repeat almost, bought an older Sportcraft 27ft sportfisherman... 454 inboard... but the $1.75 per minute to criuse is simply not doable (I haven't won the lottery yet!)

My friends 25 ft sport fisherman uses $70 worth of fuel to go the 15 miles and back at about a 23 mph (sorry, gps set to mph) on the most efficient plane/trim engine rpm I could get. And this boat gets an "economical 1.5 mpg", big blocks are generaly in the 1 or <1 mpg range. Many of these guys no longer go out unless they can get several people together to share the fuel costs... then leaving their own boat in the slip. This year fuel topped $3.80 gal at their marina.

Thinking 27-28ft sail / motorsailor, but Lake Erie is unpredictable and when your 14 miles out and the weather changes, a 6-7 knot sail or 5-6 knot aux powered simply takes too long to get in.

Whats needed is real efficient displacement haul that can slice through the water, maintain a 14 or 15 knot cruise... maybe more... and not break the bank on fuel.

Seems to me a slightly slower but very efficient displacment hull (maybe even aided by sail for those so inclined, like me) is possible... and still be able to power in and take on 6 ft seas (NOT uncommon) when the weather catches you. Most watch the weather like a hawk... but Lake Erie often fools everyone.. even the weather man.

Oh, and draft need to be shallow, as most of the fish camp marinas are not deep enough for conventional sail drafts.

Personally, whatever boat I get has to be trailerable... don't care if its seventy feet and I need to get a semi truck... but it comes home for the winter in my own shed. My 3/4 ton will pull 10k thus I'm currently limited to about 28 - 30 ft or so. I don't really care if it needs a wide load permit... I'll get one.

Any ideas?

Dave

[SAQuestor]

A pure displacement hull form won't get it for you. Figure it out from this: Square root of the waterline length X 1.34. No matter how much power you add, ya ain't gonna go much faster with a pure displacement hull.

IMO you need an excellent semi-displacement hull form. A hull that will economically cruise at 8-10 knots (2-3 NMPG, maybe a bit more if you go a bit slower) but still be able to kick it at 15-18+ knots to get back away from those sudden storms.

As just one example, take a look at Paul Riccelli's gallery (http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/2040). Especially the RYD 26 design. Semi-displacement, pilothouse and cuddy - perfect for getting out of the weather. Large cockpit for fishing. And trailerable. Power choices from outboard to full inboard.

Other examples abound. Since I'm on my lunch at work I do not have access to other links from my home computer. Will post several other links tonight.

Best,

Leo

[dem45133]

Thanks SAQuestor... looking forward to your links.

Looks like I need to research "semi-displacement". I probubly mis-used the term "displacement" per say...thinking more along the lines of simply non-plane.

[alan white]

Regardless of how unpredictable the weather, seas do no build that fast, except in rare circumstances. The idea of a motorsailer is fine, but motorsailers are really not generally faster than sailboats--- they are simply designed to motor more often at closer to hull speed.
The idea of paying a dollar to go one mile, to me, is patently ridiculous. Yet even what supposedly passes for an efficient powerboat might cost that much to run.
A displacement boat pays the least penalty of weight of all hull types. Something 25 ft long and 3 tons, trailerable at the upper limit without hiring the transport done, could achieve 10 mpg or better. What allows this is the hull being designed specifically to move most efficiently at a low speed, say 5 kts.
Sailboats commonly get similar (10 mpg) mileage figures when they motor, even if they are very efficient hulls for sailing too. The water really doen't know what's making the boat go. It's the hull that matters.
Displacement hulls also happen to do better than planing hulls when conditions get rough. They have more rounded bottoms and narrower transoms as a rule. They also usually have lower centers of gravity.
A very comfortable cruising yacht 25 ft long, 3 tons, with 15 hp or so diesel inboard won't be so much bothered by rough conditions if it is designed right.
Such boats exist. They are not fast boats. They will be cheaper to run, however. And a sailing rig never hurts when the iron wind fails.

Alan

[Guillermo]

dem45133,
On the motoring side of it, you have something here:
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11670
and for the sailing side, here:
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11492

There are other threads on these forums with useful info on the matter. Just do some search.
Enjoy.

[SAQuestor]

Dave,

I had every intention of posting a dozen links in response to your earlier post.

But I think that these three will be sufficient.

Sounds to me like you want a economical fishing boat that will run all day inexpensively but have the speed to get from 20+ miles out to shore in less than an hour. Right?

Start looking here. (http://www.fishyfish.com/tolmanskiff.html)

Then look at this Yahoo group. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tolmanskiff/)

Finally, if the Tolman design doesn't ring your "gotta have" bell, try this link for lots of Downeast boats. (http://midcoastyacht.com/A-downeastboats.html) I'd particularly look at the Dyer 29 as a suitable craft for your use.

IMO of course and YMMV and all those other qualifiers. :)

Best,

Leo

[lewisboats]

http://www.skiffamerica20.com/

very efficient boat for it's size...it planes with a 25 hp and gets good mileage. It might be a bit small for your needs but Kilburn may be able to do a stretch model for you.

and here is another...: http://www.bluejacketboats.com/

The hype sounds good and I have heard/read good thing too
Steve

[Pericles]

Gas powered. http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/DE25Cockpit_study.htm?prod=DE25Cockpit

Diesel powered. http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/LB26_study.htm?prod=LB26

Pericles

[kengrome]

Whats needed is real efficient displacement haul that can slice through the water, maintain a 14 or 15 knot cruise... maybe more... and not break the bank on fuel.Maybe what you really need is an efficient planing hull. Here is Slicer from Phil Bolger:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/excerpts/maib/1/index.cfm

[dem45133]

Thanks all... it'll take me a bit to check out all the links and it won't be today... still researching... especially a concept call "powersailors". Sort of a marrage all all three basic hull forms. Yes, which likely is inefficient in any one, but its intriging to say the least.

Will get back to you all...

Dave

[dem45133]

to: Alan White

QUOTE] The idea of paying a dollar to go one mile, to me, is patently ridiculous. Yet even what supposedly passes for an efficient powerboat might cost that much to run. [UNQUOTE]

Yea Alan, me too, which why I started this thread... but "only" a dollar per mile would make my fishing buddies go giddy with joy.

When I calculated the running cost on a 27 ft 454 V-8 powered sport fisherman at 1 mpg (the concensus of other 454 big block owners)... it came to 1.65 per minute at least years fuel cost at "criuse". Since "cruise" according to Sportcraft for this boat was 27 knots (about 30 mph... max was 41 knots BTW... we wont even calculate that big 4 barrel being opened up all they way)... 1 mile is approx 2 minutes... at 1 mile per gal at $3.30/gallon is $3.30 a mile at last years prices. Was $3.80/gal for a bit this year. Yes, a more relistice 25 mph criuse would be a little less, but not all that much.

I don't know if I can even fathom what (well actually I can,its just numbers) what those 50 or 60 ft triple engined giant block supercharged boats cost to run at their 55 knot or whatever cruise... let alone opened up. I've heard of unoffical boy toy races accross Lake Erie, where they routinely hatch out $100,000 powerplants and think nothing of it! Just one of them would pay off my mortgage!

But, I know, $ is evidently a relative thing. Like most, just never had enough to get that serious on play items.

later,

Dave

[alan white]

$1.65 a minute... imagine that!

[FAST FRED]

You might consider pulling some of the posts ,on the Atkin New Jersey Sea Bright Skiff.

These seem to be very seaworthy and the claim is very fuel efficient too.

My goal is 18K at 3 or 4 gph, but if you plug in Canadian fuel prices, 3gph is about $12 per hour and 4gph would be about $16.

Sure, slower would be cheaper , so two miles per dollar could be done (10K?)

Almost a buck a mile is a reality , unless you can use a very seaworthy open boat.

The Robb White version of an Atkin Sea Bright was claimed to get 35mpg at 18 to 20 mph.

The best I have ever heard of , but it was an open very light boat .

All the Sea Brights were built beachable , no machinery damage on running aground, and if narrow enough trailerable on a flat bed.

FF

[kengrome]

The Robb White version of an Atkin Sea Bright was claimed to get 35mpg at 18 to 20 mph.Actually this is what his web site says:

"... gets about 28.6 nautical miles per gallon
of Diesel fuel running at its most economical
speed of 10.5 knots."

Not quite what you posted Fred, but still much better than any other boat I know of.

[eponodyne]

Just a beautiful boat, too. Absolutely gorgeous.

[FAST FRED]

"gets about 28.6 nautical miles per gallon of Diesel fuel running at its most economical speed of 10.5 knots"

Sounds good since the boat was about 20 ft the S/L is about 4K, so economical at a S/L of 10.5 is still a S/L of 2.5 (or so) .

Scale that up to a waterline with S/L of 2.5 at the speed desired.

And the ability to run much faster (if needed with a bit poorer fuel burn) would still suit a Get Home situation.

FF

[Man Overboard]

I don't know if I can even fathom what (well actually I can,its just numbers) what those 50 or 60 ft triple engined giant block supercharged boats cost to run at their 55 knot or whatever cruise...

I met one of those guys on a run across Lake Supiorior. His boat got 2 to 2.3 MPG it was 55 feet long, and had 2 supercharged big block motors. It actually gets worse mileage going slow.

My fathers 22 foot Boston Whaler gets about 5 mpg at 35 knots. (4000rpm)It runs a new four stroke Yamaha (350 I believe). I know this is not the type of boat you are looking for, but I can testify that the Yamaha is quite, fuel efficient, smooth, absolutely a beautiful motor.

[FAST FRED]

and had 2 supercharged big block motors. It actually gets worse mileage going slow.

A guess would be 40 to 50gph PER engine at 400hp .

FF

[dem45133]

You sure he didn't say 2-2.5 GPM (gallons per mile)? But then he is covering the distance pretty quick... so maybe.

Still more than I could even think of. I need to be in the 1-2 gallons per hour slow class.. as in hull speed... 6.5 knots according to bayliner.

To that end I did buy a cruser sailboat this past week... a 27 ft Bayliner Buccanner off ebay. Affectionately known of in sail circles as a water winnebago... but thats just fine... all sail is slow (sorry racer fans... ther're slow too, by planning boat standards... my background).

Converting a old low cost 7000 lb cap trailer for it now (will up it to 9000 suspension)... need to haul it home from northern WI.

It'll live in my shed... not a marina's with an "auto lean" on them all the time... not going that route. Only marina cost I want is launch fees and maybe a couple weeks slip here and there... paid in advance. I'd rather eat the fuel cost to tow it... yea 7 mpg... but then we can go any where we want then too. If we can't afford to go ... its not eating anything here.

Its an outboard version... which I wasn't crazy over... but will be a good test to see if my wife is into it as much as she says... if not... I'll only be into the boat (kept ready to sail), motor (running), and trailer for about $2100 including the fuel to get it home (1400 miles RT). Your going WHAT???

800 for the boat and motor (78 Bayliner Buccanner 270, 12 hp Chrysler OB)
300 for the trailer (a preaviously modified old flatbed a guy used for a 9000 lb 26ft displacment cruiser for while... yea he was pushing it on a pair of 3500 lb axles and spring set... surprisingly nothing is bent).
400 into trailer mods (I can fabricate anything in steel... be like a factory unit when I'm done, some material I already have)
50 acetylene and O2
75 for trailer paint supplies (I'll prep and spray it myself... quicky job.. to keep DOT at bay... they get nervous over rust)
350 into fuel to get the boat home
100 in food for trip.. (sleep in truck... Mickky D's $1 cheesburgers)

Totals $2100 give or take a little

Yup.. a poor man's boat. Will see what the boat needs.... but I suspect just a general clean up... at least for now. Supposedly no repairs needed... sailed this summer. I expect some core issues... some would be minor as the steel fabricator in me says that anything with a balsa core wasn't really relying very heavily on the balsa fot its strength compenent... If it need mains... I'll replace them. 7 knot sail boats likley do not have the critical stringer system a planning hull has... a lot less impact stresses to hold up agaist... not real worried about them.

I'll let you know how this really turns out... a little risky sight unseen... but thats ebay.

Dave
Hillsboro, OH

[Squidly-Diddly]

Save on mooring fees.