I want to learn how to navigate without GPS

[Vermonter]

I want to learn how to navigate without GPS. I've searched the forum and found that plastic sextants can be ok. Which brands are ok? How much more is it for a real metal one? What's the difference in weight?

What's a good book to learn from? Are there detailed web sites?

I'll be on land until next spring, then I'll just be in Lake Champlain. But I think it'd be cool to know how, and it might even save my butt someday.

It'd also be cool if I could learn how to tell how far away peaks of mountains are.

[timgoz]

Vermonter,

Plastic sextants need adjusted (index error) with almost every use.

A good metal sextant will go from $800-2000 US. Remember you will also need a Good timepiece. The shortwave time signal is handy for checking rate of error.

I learned Celestial Nav at a school but we used Florida Marine Institutes text. It is a simple "cook book" method.

If you know the hieght of a mountain & your elevation, by taking a sextant sight and obtaining the vertical angle, you can figure the height out. Simple trigonometry. I think Duttons or Bowditch have a chart for this.

Bowditch and Duttons both deal extensively with celestial nav but may be to heavy duty for a new student. I've seen a number of simpler books available but cannot vouch for them. Check out International Marine Publishers. They probably have a website.

Welcome to the forum & have fun learning to shoot the Sun & stars (Moon & planets too).

Tim

[lazeyjack]

I started this thread awhile ago, yours is a good idea , it can be very rewardinghttp://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17851

[Vermonter]

I saw that thread but it didn't mention any specific models or brands of sextants that are good.

Is this one any good? http://celestaire.com/catalog/Marine_Sextants/Astra_IIIB/

Any other sources? Everything boat-related usually costs twice as much as it should. I'm hoping the increased competition online will bring prices down.

[timgoz]

I think those sextants are made in China. They are probably the best price you will find for a metal sextant.

C Plath sextants are probably what most would consider the industry standard. Last I looked thier most popular model went for approx. $1500.

Tim

[Vermonter]

Yikes, maybe I should just learn with a plastic one, and save getting a nice metal one for when I'm going to actually need it.

For $1500 I could get 15 backup GPS units ;-) but that wouldn't help if the system was down.

[mydauphin]

Yikes, maybe I should just learn with a plastic one, and save getting a nice metal one for when I'm going to actually need it.

For $1500 I could get 15 backup GPS units ;-) but that wouldn't help if the system was down.

I too am concern if gps system goes down, what about loran?
I used to navigate by dead reckoning and a compass. I actually traveled to a few place (short distances) in Carribean this way before GPS. I never thought much about it but with all these crazy countries capable of orbital rockets and Nukes, it doesnt take much to knock GPS out for good.

What else is there?

[lazeyjack]

Ok I see, well this is mine and they were VERY popular, made in the GDR, BY freiberger prazisionsmeckanic, in 1977, they are probably still made and they are very good,

[lazeyjack]

been around the world this one, and not on a plane either

[timgoz]

Nice instrument Lazeyjack. GDR as in former East Germany? I knew someone over there made fine sextants but if I can't pronounce it I don't remember it.

Googled "sextants" earlier and saw C Plath might not be making thier classic models anymore. That would be a shame.

I used to have a ex-Royal navy Heath sextant. Sort of a mid-sized model. Got stolen from me.

Tim

[PsiPhi]

Hey, this is a Boat Building forum, you know, do-it-yourself stuff.
OK, so I'm not suggesting you make your own sextent, but if you have a good engineering university close by why not see if you can find a student who will build you one as a project? They much prefer having a purpose to their projects.
It may be crap, but it may be surprisingly good, and should cost comparitively little?

Just an idea from a guy who doesn't like to spend any more than he has to, on anything.

[Poida]

mydauphin

I think nocking a GPS system would be very difficult.
I believe America is the only country that has one although I here that Europe is getting its own for obvious reasons.

So an enemy of America knocking out the GPS system would be silly as they wouldn't be able to use it either.

Poida

[lazeyjack]

france is abt to launch as is china, get with the play Poida you ole bugger

[lazeyjack]

you want to learn celestial, google up books Mary Bluet, simple easy methods
funny how all those expert old trawler and tug skippers vanished at the mentch of all this:))

[Frosty]

I aquired an ex Royal navy sextant off a man in the pub. Its a 'Heath' (what ever that is) Its sort of a mid size model.

He said he stole it of a bloke in America.

[Crag Cay]

I've had my Astra IIIB for over 25 years. Works fine.

There are loads of instruction and work books around for astronavigation, but I would restrict yourself to those that use the Air Navigation Sight Reduction Tables.

However, you will find it hard to practice on a lake as you don't have a true horizon.

But before you get stuck in to all this, you really have to assess the relative risks with each navigation method before you can work out what is a back up to what. Is the chance of the GPS system failing (for what ever reason) really greater than you remembering how to do astronavigation, to having a current, accurate time variation table with you, to having kept your sextant undamaged and mildew free with known and stable errors, to having a working time signal radio on board, to having an up to date almananc with you, to having kept your sight reduction tables and plotting charts dry and usable, and then to be able to guarentee this GPS failure doesn't happen on a cloudy day ?

It's worth remembering that Mike Ritchey, who was president of our Royal Institute of Navigation, had to abandon his boat because he got all his navigation books and reduction tables sodden wet. If he had a handheld GPS with him as back up, the original yacht 'Jester' would probably still be sailing.

The back up to GPS is more GPS.

[timgoz]

While Celestial may not be practical on Lake Champlain, relying solely on GPS is not either.
Using a GPS AND keeping track of your position on a paper chart would seem the safest bet. Then if your GPS goes out or the system goes down (therefore making your backup worthless) you can run a DR course and speed utilizing the chart, compass, rules, & dividers like in the "old" days. Your sounder or even a leadline would be employed also.

The above could bring you close enough inshore, even under most reduced visibility situations, to then rely on basic coastal nav techniques.

Offshore GPS with a backup plus plotting on a paper chart would be the way to go. At least a celestial noon sight & later running fix would back up the GPS. Paper charts and other publications have been used for hundreds of years by mariners who managed to keep them dry most of the time. I've done it in an open skiff in the temperate rainforested waters of SE Alaska. As to the time, three good watches (for backup sake) with known rates of error, will give you what you need, time component wise, to do celestial. A SW radio time signal would only be needed on the longest passages. Your DR Longitude is plugged into your sight calculations so a "time variation table" is not needed, nor have I personally ever heard of such a table.

I would also, as Crag Cay has, recommend using the air sight reduction tables. I've never used the marine tables but hear they require several extra steps and are only slightly more accurate. In a small boat this extra accuracy will not be much of an issue. One mile accuracy is about the best you will ever get anyhow.

If you want to practice Celestial in Vermont you can utilize a "artificial horizon". Not ideal but better than running to the Atlantic everytime you wish to practice.

It is commendable to wish to learn celestial. If you ever do voyage far offshore it will prove a vital part of your nautical skills. First & foremost though, if you are not already proficient with basic coastal navigation, I would learn to be. In many ways coastal is more involved then celestial.

Tim

[Crag Cay]

Just to clarify, I was limiting my comments to oceanic position fixing, ie that part of the navigational art that used be done by celestrial sights.

Coastal navigation, pilotage, plus the arguments about paper versus paperless chart tables, etc, is a much broader discussion and one in which I am far more conservative. But for offshore and ocean passage position fixing, I still believe the back up for GPS is another GPS.

For many years I carried both my sextant and my walker log as back up to any electronic systems. But now both are mounted on mahogany plinths on the mantlepiece. I don't think they will ever go to sea again.

[lazeyjack]

in my opinion the OLD way is just a way of satisfying ones needs to be sort of self sufficient, its rather like sitting in front of a fire, hearth, or cutting wood, , it satisfies something within, it feels good,
I don't dispute the ease of gps, and the peace of mind it gives when either there is not time, no sun, or doubt,
i would never sell mine, kinda like old hand tools you hang on to em

[safewalrus]

The BIG problem with any GPS etc type of navigation equipment on a small boat is the problem with electrics - namely that electrickery and salt are lousy bedfellows! so you have all the super dooper magic, all singing, all dancing, bit of kit - bit of salt air and CRASH!

OK so yer paper gets soggy - keep it in a waterproof container until you need it, or if you are only doing short passages laminate the relevant pages! you then have a decent backup! OK main GPS then battery GPS then what ? white stick? somewhere in between is a bit of Celestial, cos you know that it always goes wrong miles from anywhere and no village shop in sight!

[Frosty]

Hand held water proof GPS running on batteries perhaps. Lets not go daft here, they are pretty cheap, even those for walkers will get you a position in any weather. Its not unusuall to have two three or four spares,- boxed --new --ready to go,--for the reall pesamistic minimalists amongst us.

[PsiPhi]

If you just want to learn how to use one . . .

http://www.tecepe.com.br/nav/CDSextantProject.htm

[Landlubber]

Not a good idea was it, all you have done is create a better market for stolen goods. "May the fleas of a thousand camels sleep with you tonight".

[Frosty]

Not a good idea was it, all you have done is create a better market for stolen goods. "May the fleas of a thousand camels sleep with you tonight".

Better one thousand that 2 thousand like I had last night.

[gonzo]

The new nautical almanacs have a pretty good method that is easy to use. They rely on a calculator and don't require sight reduction tables.

[safewalrus]

Now that gonzo is good to know (as long as your battery don't die - yeah I know you got solar! Anybody got a solar powered GPS - the mind boggles!)

[lazeyjack]

I've had my Astra IIIB for over 25 years. Works fine.

There are loads of instruction and work books around for astronavigation, but I would restrict yourself to those that use the Air Navigation Sight Reduction Tables.

However, you will find it hard to practice on a lake as you don't have a true horizon.

But before you get stuck in to all this, you really have to assess the relative risks with each navigation method before you can work out what is a back up to what. Is the chance of the GPS system failing (for what ever reason) really greater than you remembering how to do astronavigation, to having a current, accurate time variation table with you, to having kept your sextant undamaged and mildew free with known and stable errors, to having a working time signal radio on board, to having an up to date almananc with you, to having kept your sight reduction tables and plotting charts dry and usable, and then to be able to guarentee this GPS failure doesn't happen on a cloudy day ?

It's worth remembering that Mike Ritchey, who was president of our Royal Institute of Navigation, had to abandon his boat because he got all his navigation books and reduction tables sodden wet. If he had a handheld GPS with him as back up, the original yacht 'Jester' would probably still be sailing.

The back up to GPS is more GPS.

ye sCraig, agree air sight and plotting charts,

[Poida]

Captain Cook didn't have a GPS when he sailed up the East Coast of Australia. But then he slammed into the Great Barrier Reef and put a big hole in his ship.

If he'd taken a GPS this wouldn't have happened.

Poida

[timgoz]

Imagine how his (Cook's) survey work would have proceeded with GPS. His work's accuracy & extent are truly amazing.

Tim

[StianM]

I can learn to navigate without a gps anny day I want. My father where sailing as a 1mate in the mercant navy.

I was colour blind so I seteled for working in smal dark engineroms changing oil and calibrating alarms, but then I have no interest in navigation. The times I go out in a boat and drive myself I seldom go out to open waters and often row the boat for exercise.

I'm shure if people want to learn there is allway a old captain around that can teatch you.

[Poida]

Bit of trivia here, on a documentary I saw last Sunday.

Captain Cook actually taught himself how to navigate by stars because his hobby was astronomy and that is why his charts were so accurate.

In fact when he mapped out the East Coast of Australia he was not a captain.

The English Navy was engaged in working out dimensions in relation to our universe and to do so they needed the time that Venus crossed the Sun in an eclipse. Measurements were being taken in the Northern Hemisphere but none in the Southern Hemisphere so Cook who was a leiutenant was given the job of taking charge of a ship to Tahiti to observe the Venus eclipse because of his knowledge of astronomy.

After that he travelled south and mapped the East Coast of Australia.

Due to his excellent work he was made a Captain on his return.

Poida

[timgoz]

Even before that he charted parts of Newfoundland & the Labrador Coast. When I was in Labrador (1999 & 2000) the charts still used much of his work.

Tim

[alan white]

Check out Ebay. Many have sold their sextents due to having total reliance on GPS. People have made them too, though one must be very clever at such things and have a lot of time on their hands.
Try "Navigation Afloat" by Alton B. Moody for a comprehensive understanding of its use, along with all of the other ways of navigating.

Alan

[safewalrus]

Wrong - James Cook was when he joined the Navy as a seaman, actually a time served masters mate from the Merchant Service - part of his job (and still is) and that of all Merchant Naval mates is actually navigation! Because of this he was quickly promoted to masters mate and two years later to master! He then went over to the new world and did a bit of chart making (most navigators did if the could in those days - gets your name up in lights as it were) - so Ok it was his hobby, you can't blame a bloke for working at his hobby can you? makes the job more fun! I know I did for many years - same job actually (unfortunately not he same firm - as 'mate' much the same trade tho' and of course some body [another tyke] had already discovered Australia) Most of his 'work' in discovery was actually either as 'Master' (St Lawrence, Newfoundland etc) or 'Master and Commander' (captain of the ship)
he was then given the upgrade to 'Post Captain' for his job with venus - That is 'posted as captain' meant a bigger ship and more pay - useful!

[timgoz]

Walrus,

If you ever saw the coast of Labrador, you would not call it "a bit of discovery". Beyond description friend!

Thanks again.

Tim

[mydauphin]

I have been boating for the last 30+ years, making gps a new thing. Actually the boat I bought 2 years ago was my first with gps. I mostly went aroung Biscayne Bay in Miami, actually a pretty treacherous bay because of all the shallow water and submerged cays. I went cruising the Bahamas a few times. I cruised via compass, charts, sun and sight. I learn the bay since my youth by snorkeling around.

Anyway, my son-in-law bought a boat and he wants to go cruising the bay with his gps. I had a hard time convincing him to look at the water and not the gps. The gps is great for ploting courses not for navigating in channels or small bays. Familiarity with charts and local knowledge are the most important factors.

He learn his lesson the other day, he ran his boat into a sunken cay, not on the GPS. He is installing a compass on his boat now, and I gave him a updated paper chart.

[Frosty]

Before GPs and as the old 'satnav' was around I did a bit of sextant stuff. It might just be me but it was very hard and made me appreciate the accuracy of the charts as Cook made at that time.

Making a noon day sight with a plastic Davis in Hong kong the nearest I could get was 100miles away. Its not easy.

Wanting to do this instead of a 100dollar GPS,--- well I dont see the point.

[Poida]

I can't understand why you say I am wrong with my little bit of information on Captain James Cook Captain Walrus, when you have said virtually the same thing but in different words.

If I was ship's captain you would feel the sting of the cat o' nine tails.

And be keel hauled and hung from the yard arm.

Poida

[safewalrus]

Poida you ain't and after a good keel hauling I'd be so dead I wouldn't care - unless you keel hauled me around a canoe!

What you intimated was he learn't his nav in the Royal Navy - like most professional men of his time he actually learnt the basics in the Merchant Service - he then joined the 'Andrew' became a Masters Mate on the basis of a basic knowledge in nav and THEN honed his skills! But he was by then already an accomplished navigator - OK much the same but NOT quite!

Which is why he tried to be nice to the guys what slotted him - if he'd been throughand through Rodney he would have slotted the savage well before he had chance to do anything - simply because he (yer savage) was an uncouth lower being (much like his ratings (JC's) of course!)

[safewalrus]

Frosty - read what the dauphin is writting mate! it's all very well knowing where you are on the surface -it's what's below that matters and being able to 'read' that!

[Poida]

Listen here Walrus, all I was stating what was on the documentary, if it was wrong don't cut my bloody rum ration.

It did mention that he was not promoted to Captain because of his standing in society.

Also it mentioned that Captain Cook made a very accurate chart of Cornwall, then rubbed it out because he didn't think it was worth while having.

Captain Poida

[longliner45]

just yesterday in lake erie ,,a guy in a 45ft powerboat ,was relying on gps,,hit some rocks and was resquedby a local from his hometown of beavercreek,depthfinder should accompany gps or loran ,,,and always good to talk to the locals for that inside info of what you cant see ,longliner

[timgoz]

Lake Eire can be very dangerous. Land & shoals are always close. Strong winds result in quickly formed and very steep waves.

I've read several books on Capt. Cook. He was a man of humble origin. He was more a working class soul. I doubt if many high society types would of had the fortitude to do a tenth of what he accomplished.

He also generally dished out considerably more corpral punishment than Bligh. Actually Bligh's mixed signals to crew & officers, and lack at times of proper punishment, got him into trouble. He was a hell of a navigator though. He also served under Cook at one time.

Tim

[alan white]

Bligh didn't understand babefests, and that cost him. Great seaman, though. The only other who matched his feat might have been Shackleton. When I say 'feat", I mean being a leader who was able to encourage his men to do something that they probably considered impossible.

[Poida]

He also generally dished out considerably more corpral punishment than Bligh.

Where did you get this piece of info Timgoz?

I call upon the first witness Mr Walrus to make a comment on this.

Poida

[Poida]

http://users.orac.net.au/~mhumphry/jamescook.html

Info on James Cook

Poida

[Frosty]

Frosty - read what the dauphin is writting mate! it's all very well knowing where you are on the surface -it's what's below that matters and being able to 'read' that!

Walrus --are you on medication or something? We are talking about GPS. This clever little device although is clever doesnt tell you whats under the surface. Thats called A 'depth sounder'.

I did actually meet a yachtie who was about to buy a GPS and he --like Walrus though it told you how deep the water was too.

[Poida]

Mine does Frosty. You use the depths on the chart as well as the depths on the sounder to find diving spots.

It is not recommended to use a GPS as the only source of navigation. The course should be plotted on a chart.

The coast where I live is flat so a GPS is handy even on short trips as we don't have mountains or big buildings to navigate by.

Poida

[lazeyjack]

I can learn to navigate without a gps anny day I want. My father where sailing as a 1mate in the mercant navy.

I was colour blind so I seteled for working in smal dark engineroms changing oil and calibrating alarms, but then I have no interest in navigation. The times I go out in a boat and drive myself I seldom go out to open waters and often row the boat for exercise.

I'm shure if people want to learn there is allway a old captain around that can teatch you.

Stian ole boy nice to see you, where art thou now?

[lazeyjack]

Once I was on a Reefer(no frost and walrus) not a smoke kinda joint reefer, and then I invited the officers onto my yacht for dinner, we got talking stars , and so on, the Walker Sat Nav had just come out,the Reefer was Pand O, the mate told me once he had called a yacht to ask them their pos, and hisCaptain had told him in grave English Merchant Navy terms"we dont check our position from a yacht!!"" however the mates went on to explain how they shot morning stars, I never used stars,, but did use moon, Venus down here is excellent for "evening stars"
You lubberly lot, when was the last time you left your TV, WANDERED OUTSIDE AND MARVELLED AT THE STARS?

[lazeyjack]

Frosty are you internally or externally circumclipped?

[timgoz]

Poida,

Like I said, I read a few books dealing almost excluesivly with Cook & also ones on Bligh (the Trilogy ect...) that spoke of the matter. W/O digging them up & some serious searching I cannot say where I recall that from.

I in no way want to try to lessen Capt. Cook as a man. He is one of my nautical heros!
In the day though (& you probably know more than me) punishment was a real part of the RN. Cook does not seem to have dished out any more or less than average. My point was in contrast, Bligh (who history has as some sadist) dished out less. If I remember correctly, this came from the ships log (or Capts.).

Actually I feel history has slighted William Bligh. Though his people skills were suspect, he was an awesome navigator & seaman. Have you read "Men Against the Sea" ? The voyage in the longboat spoken of in it demonstrates his abilities.

I'll try to find the source for my info but can make no promises as my house is cluttered, to say the least.

Take care.

Tim

[charmc]

just yesterday in lake erie ,,a guy in a 45ft powerboat ,was relying on gps,,hit some rocks and was resquedby a local from his hometown of beavercreek

Longliner,

I was in Toledo (US, not Spain) when that happened; got some local info.

Apart from one passenger badly injured, the incident was pretty embarassing. The guy was a licensed charter skipper under contract to the Outdoor Channel. He didn't hit some semi-visible rocks out in the lake; he ran into the breakwater at the harbor entrance. The marine police report listed the cause of the accident as the operator looking at the GPS screen instead of looking out the window to see where he was going.

Regardless of your favored method of navigation: GPS, LORAN, celestial, dead reckoning, I've always thought that bit about looking out the window was a good idea. :)

[timshwak]

"Mine does Frosty. You use the depths on the chart as well as the depths on the sounder to find diving spots.

It is not recommended to use a GPS as the only source of navigation. The course should be plotted on a chart.

The coast where I live is flat so a GPS is handy even on short trips as we don't have mountains or big buildings to navigate by."

Just make sure that the datum on the chart you are using and the datum that your GPS is using are the same. You can "run into" (or onto) problems if they are not.

There can be alot of difference in GPS position and chart position if you are using different datums.

[timgoz]

That what scares me about onboard dash mounted car nav systems!

Anytime the vehicle is rolling the nav screen should default to blank.

Bad enough with the almost constant cell phone chatter some drivers seem intent on (will not mention primary sex involved).

Used to be all you had to worry about were idiot drivers who insist on looking constantly at the front seat passenger while talking.

Tim

[alan white]

Poida,

Like I said, I read a few books dealing almost excluesivly with Cook & also ones on Bligh (the Trilogy ect...) that spoke of the matter. W/O digging them up & some serious searching I cannot say where I recall that from.

I in no way want to try to lessen Capt. Cook as a man. He is one of my nautical heros!
In the day though (& you probably know more than me) punishment was a real part of the RN. Cook does not seem to have dished out any more or less than average. My point was in contrast, Bligh (who history has as some sadist) dished out less. If I remember correctly, this came from the ships log (or Capts.).

Actually I feel history has slighted William Bligh. Though his people skills were suspect, he was an awesome navigator & seaman. Have you read "Men Against the Sea" ? The voyage in the longboat spoken of in it demonstrates his abilities.

I'll try to find the source for my info but can make no promises as my house is cluttered, to say the least.

Take care.

Tim

I read that, Tim. Good read. Imagine repeating his voyage in the same small boat.

[charmc]

Poida,

Like I said, I read a few books dealing almost excluesivly with Cook & also ones on Bligh (the Trilogy ect...) that spoke of the matter. W/O digging them up & some serious searching I cannot say where I recall that from.

I in no way want to try to lessen Capt. Cook as a man. He is one of my nautical heros!
In the day though (& you probably know more than me) punishment was a real part of the RN. Cook does not seem to have dished out any more or less than average. My point was in contrast, Bligh (who history has as some sadist) dished out less. If I remember correctly, this came from the ships log (or Capts.).

Actually I feel history has slighted William Bligh. Though his people skills were suspect, he was an awesome navigator & seaman. Have you read "Men Against the Sea" ? The voyage in the longboat spoken of in it demonstrates his abilities.

I'll try to find the source for my info but can make no promises as my house is cluttered, to say the least.

Take care.

Tim

Tim,

I agree with you about Bligh. The Bounty Trilogy was a fascinating read as a 13 year old. He was a complex character according to all accounts. During the months required for the breadfruit seedlings to grow enough to survive transplanting, Bligh could have sailed away for more exploration and chartmaking. He actually decided to stay in Tahiti to give his crew some R & R. His problems arose, IMHO, from terrible people skills, insecurity, and mixed message communications. He was a superb navigator, however, and, when placed in a situation in which all the fancy stuff was stripped away, i.e. in an overloaded and understocked longboat thousands of miles from land, he rose to the challenge and became a leader who brought all of his crew to safe harbor.

Here is another account concluding that Bligh used corporal punishment less than Cook: http://www.plantexplorers.com/explorers/biographies/captain/captain-william-bligh.htm

[timgoz]

Alan,

Kept everyone alive if I recall correctly. Hardly the tyrant they make him out to be. But we are getting accostemed to rewritten history, are we not?

Tim

[Poida]

Timshwak

It took me a bit of time to work out what you were talking about.

But I don't put chart datums into my GPS.

Thanks for your concern.

Poida

[Poida]

Timgoz

You are certainly right there. Since I saw the documentary about Captain Cook and Bergalia disagreed with the information that I placed on this thread from information aquired from the afore mentioned TV documentary. ( Berg said Captain Cook was in fact a female who was sent to Tahiti to meet a man with a big Venus, or as the spelling mistake says) anyway:

I have read a few more articles on CC and they all seem to differ.
Such as, some of his crew did, according to some articles die from Malaria.
Whereas, some say his claim to fame, was none died of Scurvy.
So somehow we got from none died of scurvy to none died at all.

Until I have finished designing my time machine we may never knoa.

Anybody got plans?

Poida

[timgoz]

Poida,

I was speaking of none dying while in the longboat with Bligh after he and the others were set adrift. Don't recall how many died during regular ops.

Been looking for one book I read in particular. Think it was called "The Lost Journals of Capt. James Cook".

Tim

[Poida]

Alan,

Kept everyone alive if I recall correctly. Hardly the tyrant they make him out to be. But we are getting accostemed to rewritten history, are we not?

Tim

'scuse me buddy if I failed mind reading at university.;)

Poida

[timgoz]

Yeah Poida,

Sometimes I forget that just because I'm thinking it, does not mean it makes it to the screen. :(

Low of 63F tonight. Camping out under the stars. Maybe I can learn my nav stars better.

You have a good one.

Tim

PS: I like the game show Jeopardy. Last night three supposedly smart contestants did not know Sirius, Antares, Polaris (I think?) were stars. Found that interesting & a little truobling.

[alan white]

Alan,

Kept everyone alive if I recall correctly. Hardly the tyrant they make him out to be. But we are getting accostemed to rewritten history, are we not?

Tim

Thanks to Hollywood, and whoever those guys were that wrote the book. Few people today realize that back then, a captain was an ersatz ruler of a small kingdom, a world that lasted sometimes for several years, and yet with an opportunity for any sailor to jump ship easily at any port if he so chose.
Captains were the fairest of rulers generally, since their commision was performance-based. Those who joined the ranks of able seamen often were men without any normal ties to civilized society--- drunks, drifters, and misfits.
In a way, ships then were peopled with voluntary prison inmates. To mutiny was therefore a serious crime. It really amounted to stealing a ship and while sometimes could be justified, more often it was the human nature of a very suspicious and uneducated crew at work. In the case of the Bounty, the contrast of returning to a repressive society and continuing the hard life of a common seaman compared to the apparent delights of life in Tahiti (whose women were so hot and uninhibited...) was all too obvious. Christian tipped the scales, himself having personal stakes. If not for his own personal stake in the matter, history would have been very different.
Much of Bligh's ugly reputation came out of a need to justify another entirely different motivation.
Christian could have later returned to Tahiti easily. One can't blame the men who followed him. I would have done the same if I'd been one of them. But the mutinying officers were most surely a threat to the cohesion of the British navy, who held their vast empire together by the very kind of men of which Bligh was the best example. No other way could the Crown maintain its power except through the discipline of stalwart men such as Bligh was.
The story is a typical case of historical myopia. In the movie, Bligh is played by an ugly little man, and Christian is played by the handsomest actor in Hollywood. The idea was to get the audience to hate Bligh in part because he was simply too unattractive to be loved.

Alan

[alan white]

Yeah Poida,

Sometimes I forget that just because I'm thinking it, does not mean it makes it to the screen. :(

Low of 63F tonight. Camping out under the stars. Maybe I can learn my nav stars better.

You have a good one.

Tim

PS: I like the game show Jeopardy. Last night three supposedly smart contestants did not know Sirius, Antares, Polaris (I think?) were stars. Found that interesting & a little truobling.

Yeah, Tim, I watch Jeopardy too. It's interesting that while the Shakespere and opera questions are always so demanding, a nautical question is always absolutely simple and elementary. The bias is towards that relatively useless upper crusty educational drivel that is the hallmark of the priveliged and often equally useless upper class. Hardly fair, as it negates the value of real world knowledge that should be a source of pride to those who have mastered their art.
Perhaps this is why craftsmanship is a dying art in the USA. While in France, a carpenter is likely to make nearly as much as a doctor, here the doctor makes 10 times as much for his level of expertise. The irony is that I could run circles around my sister at Jeopardy, who is a doctor, who also can't change a car tire or put up a shelf.

Alan

[timgoz]

Alan,

Thats funny as my sis is a MD (general pratitioner) also.

Can't say she does not have some general knowledge, but it seems to be only in limited areas. Her poor ignorant brother (that would be me), I am quite confident, would destroy her at Jeopardy. That is if it did not have a bunch of stupid, irrelevant catagories. Seems the good subjects are being more & more neglected.

I'm not big into TV, but like the show. Take care of my disabled mom. Thats the one time of the day we always share.

Tim

[safewalrus]

Ah! Mr Bligh! good navigator reasonable Captain - wasn't he the guy who (as Admiral) was gov'ner of Australia (well the bit that was known about?) who had to be removed for kicking the poo out of the local white population - seem to recall he thought they were convicts or something!! Yes a misunderstood gentleman if ever there was one! As for Mr Christian - hardly call him an ocifer - Masters Mate more like. Being a 'transport' the 'Bounty' ran too one lieutenant in command (as master and commander no less, but not ranked as such, she was so small she didn't even rate to that level). a Masters Mate or Junior Warrant Officer/ Petty Officer and a couple of midshipmen who in those days (still?) rank little more than boys who can read, OK the more senior ones were actually given ocifer jobs with a small amount of authority (skipper of a prize crew and the like) to help train then for when they became full lieutenants but generally were boys under training!

[charmc]

Perhaps this is why craftsmanship is a dying art in the USA. While in France, a carpenter is likely to make nearly as much as a doctor, here the doctor makes 10 times as much for his level of expertise. The irony is that I could run circles around my sister at Jeopardy, who is a doctor, who also can't change a car tire or put up a shelf. Alan

I don't want to get political, and no disrespect to individual doctors intended. Having said that, the concept of doctors and healthcare in this contry has, IMHO, gone downhill in the past 60 years or so.

Doctors were once people who cared about and were paid for maintaining the health of their patients. Now they are people who are paid by the number and type of procedures they order and by lucrative fringe benefits (e.g. expense paid "conferences" and "training sessions" in exotic resorts) from pharmaceutical companies for prescribing hugely expensive drugs. They are paid by big business and government, not by patients.
They are paid for expensive procedures whether or not the patient's health improves, and they are paid very little for supporting and improving the patient's health if there are no costly procedures involved. General and family practice physicians make much less than specialists under this system, and, not surprisingly, there are fewer of them each year. :mad:

The difference is that craftsmen are paid for the quality of their results, as doctors once were paid. The demand in this country for high quality results is limited. Maybe it's the definition of "high quality", based on our society's growing tendency to look for short term results, instant gratification, etc. Don't build a home that will last for centuries; build one that you can resell for a profit in a few years.

I suspect very few doctors are well rounded enough in their education anymore to even consider navigating without GPS. (Nice segue back to topic, huh?) :)

[safewalrus]

Charlie you talking about the US or the UK? can't see much difference either way!

[alan white]

Huh? Quality is less an issue when it's free! Here, we pay to be abused!

A.

[charmc]

Good point, Alan. We get all the mediocrity and lack of efficiency of socialized medicine, without universal coverage, and we pay for it! :mad:

[mydauphin]

I think this thread needs a GPS

[Poida]

Not bad tho'

Went from Bligh to jeopardy to stars to doctors and the health service in 4 posts.

Don't mention the war!

Poida

[timgoz]

Hmmm?

[safewalrus]

Ok lets tie it all together - Cap'n Bligh navigated by the stars which on a cloudy night put him in jeopardy, doubly so because he had no health service in those days and thus no doctor onboard. These days of course because of GPS it would have been quicker to get to a doctor - if the health service was up to speed! God bless the war for making it possible!!

[charmc]

Wow, Mike,

I stand in awe at the brilliance of your logic. If Frosty were here, he'd stop drivelling for at least 2 minutes. You've earned your beer tonight! :D :D

[charmc]

Or does this come from some logic software bundled into your new computer? :P :P

[safewalrus]

Charlie first I gotta figure out how to turn the damn thing on! then start being logical!

Ah that's better applied a bit Frosty logic to it! Act stoopid it works every time, unlike the snowman of course - hi Frosty your peace is shattered mate, ahs back to annoy you tee hee:P :P :P :cool:

[timgoz]

I feel terrible Walrus. Did not even realize you were absent. :(

Tim

[Frosty]

Oh I did,---- I have enjoyed his absence for what 2 weeks now. No honestly nice to see you back. Excuse my while I go and slit my throat.

[safewalrus]

Arh Meesta Flost a cut above the rest eh! Glad to be back mate, missed our friendly little chats -no honestly (I only have one vice, I lie a lot)

[safewalrus]

Once I was on a Reefer(no frost and walrus) not a smoke kinda joint reefer, and then I invited the officers onto my yacht for dinner, we got talking stars , and so on,

So too was, I but not a posh one - fyffes, more down to earth, great job? if you like bananas and rum:p