Cheap!!!

[timgoz]

So many threads deal with those who want to go cheap, either constrution wise, or involving other critical areas of boat ownership & use.

I call this false economy. No problem buying "proper" equipment & materials at the best price. The problem is using materials known to be inferior because they are CHEAP. That word should not be associated with a proper boat.

In the area of longetivity, I have a related story. When I worked construction my friend bought 30-40 dollar work boots. I spent 100+ dollars on mine.

He went through 2-3 pairs a year. Doing the same work mine lasted, (with a resoling, an option not available with cheap boots), 2+ years.

In reality his "bargain" boots cost twice what my expensive ones did. Plus they did not function as well, comfort wise & traction/safety wise, as mine.

As I have stated elsewhere, "I am to poor to be cheap".

A boat deserves the very best you can do.

Take care.

Tim

[safewalrus]

Tim the term cheap is a different term to all people! In your concept, Yes cheap can be dangerous! In other concepts cheap can be simply that "not expensive" or purchase of the right equipment through sensible outlets at a reasonable price! It does not necessarily mean you go to the same point of sale as everybody else (f'instance the majority of equipment for small boats may be purchased far cheaper from a caravan shop - as long as you ensure that you purchase equipment that suits the marine environment! if you buy something with plain steel bolts they will rust out before you know it in a 'salt atmosphere' it will then cost more as you say!)

I've bought expensive boots for the construction industry which have been purely gimmicky and expensive as hell! other cheaper boots have proved better because ther are no gimmicks involved! The cost of anything is not just about how it is there is also the way you use it to be considered!

Having said that Tim, yes I do agree that if you are buying cheap you must know what your doing otherwise you will buy a lemon without realising it - that is not cheap!

cheers - luck with the buying, Mike

[timgoz]

Like you said cheap means different things to different folks. Don't think I left out the possibility of using less expensive things. I agree, many items can be purchased at a hardware store that are as good or better than the dreaded & pricey "marine" items.

As for boots and the related story. The individual must posses a certain degree of dicernnment. As in anything, this comes with time on earth & our individual experiences.

Becuase of the above. A new builder looking to go cheap is in more danger because of his lack of experience. A old builder will know how to reduce costs significantly without reducing quality.

Have a good one Mike.

Tim

[KnottyBuoyz]

I don't think you're allowed to use "cheap" and "boats" in the same post! Gotta be a rule against that somewhere????

Some think I'm cheap. In that I've decided to build my own boat because I don't want to fork over a small kings ransom for a clorox bottle production boat. Even 20 yr old boats in the size we feel we'll be comfortable on for extended inland cruising are well beyond our means, well not means, but what we feel is reasonable to spend on a recreationial activity. I'm just a poor civil servant ya know!

The one thing that bothers me, well really p*sses me off, is purchasing materials or equipment from Supplier A only to find out 2 weeks later that Supplier B has the same item at 20% less!! I think there was a thread here awhile ago about exhorbitant restocking fees! Anyhow, being cheap I do a lot of sourcing of materials and parts on the web. Its a great tool but also has a lot of shorcomings when it comes to getting the apples compared to the apples etc.

Will, because I'm cheap, compromise on the quality of the materials I put into our next boat? Not likely! If anything I fully intend to use the best materials I can get at a price that I'm willing to pay for them. For example: I have a whole lot of choices in epoxy for the boat. The designer has his brand and it's reasonably priced, tested to work with the materials he specifies and provides technical support so there's a lot of value added to just he price of the raw material. Or, I could go with e-Bay seller for the same amount of epoxy and save $500. No testing (risk), no technical support, nadda. No value added there. Guess which one I chose? Same goes for marine plywood, yes at a premium but has some assurance it's superior than buying regular exterior const. grade. I'll use the marine version.

As an example where I believe there are areas to "economize" without sacraficing quality or functionality I just bought a 6 gal h/w heater. $249 Cdn. It wasn't the shiney SS version by the same mfgr which retails for $399. Did I compromise quality or functionality? No and I saved $150. Nobody's gonna see the stupid thing anyways eh?

So for me (us, the Admirnal is paying half although she dones't know it yet) it boils down to a value for money equation and not just being labelled "cheap". I spend a good amount of time researching materials and equipment and sourcing them at the best price I can get. I call that being smart and not cheap!

[Wynand N]

S
The problem is using materials known to be inferior because they are CHEAP.

Tim, I totally agree with you. However, I had seen some really poor quality at premium prices, and again, some real quality at cheap prices....

Amateur builders as a rule build their own boats due to a limited or shoestring budget, and they want the most boat for their buck. Of course some of them will cut corners to achieve their objectives - is that a sin? Why do not all of us drive the best wheels there are, again, simply because we drive what we can afford. Same goes for spares for your nice car; OME and branded names are sometimes just to expensive and one takes the other route.
And I think the same argument applies to boats.

When I used to built boats for a living, we had many comebacks with failures of quality branded items over the years, some of these even when first used to the dismay of the owner. IOW, quality products do not always means free of problems/flaws. Most of the times brand names are hype - isn't it nice to brag at the clubhouse that your boat is fitted with Harken hardware for instance, whereas Barton, costing a fraction of that, does the same job?

But to get back to your quote; how would the average Joe sailor or amateur sailor knows it is (known) inferior quality?

[timgoz]

That is a double-bladed sword Wynand. :) If one has not been around long enough to develop a sense for discerning quality I reckon asking a number of people and seeing where the trend leads "might" work. Depends on who they are asking.

Places like this forum might help.

I never equated cheap with inexpensive (I don't think). Nothing wrong with, and even smart & commendable, to find the best price for quality gear.

Affordability. I fish a decent flyrod (approx. $80.00 US), it gets the job done.
I would like to fish an Orvis or equivelant, but cannot afford it.

A galviniced but proper strenght & size turnbuckle from the hardware store would be a fine substitute for one priced 5 times as much from a marine supply. Shiny is not that important to me. Functionality is.

Thanks for your comments Wynand. Hope all is well down your way. :)

Tim

[Frosty]

I agree with walrus here 100%. It depends on how you use the word cheap. Cheap as in poor quality as tim refers to or cheap as in less expensive. Cheaper means less cost but not necessarily poor quality.

I am not of the opinion that you get what you pay for. As the conversation has mentioned foot wear I too can offer similar. I buy running shoes a lot (Yeah yeah) I have paid a lot and have bought seconds. The seconds had been rejected because too much glue had been used.

I had those shoes for maybe a year where other fancy stuff I can stuff up in 3 months if im lucky. The exess glue did in fact make a better product.

I think the word "cheap" fails us here. A frugal shopper is not a cheap person. The word cheap is not definitive enough for the use we give it.

[timgoz]

I should have titled the thread "Inferiour Materials & Equipment". :)

Frosty, do not think I ever heard you agree with the Walrus before!

Tim

[PsiPhi]

In England there are two popular phrases . . .

"Cheap and Cheerful" - something inexpensive that does a job

and

"Cheap and Nasty" - self explanatory realy

I think what people like me need to know is, how to tell the difference.

Read PAR's comment on this thread - http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18416&page=2 . . . it made me rethink my idea of 'cheap'

[lazeyjack]

hey timbo,
yeppers I bought some 100 shoes, here made china, very comfortable, lasted 9 months, shop did not want a bar of WHY,
I used to buy Florsheim, and they last 30 years, so went back, there
and same boats I give 10 years warrantty on my hulls,
thanks for feedback,
I heard today that the moderator Jeff had given my name to a query abt neg feed, so much for the integrety of this place

[Frosty]

Sometimes cheap doesnt matter, electricity, water, women and beer.

Theres probably some other items that dont suffer from the effects of cheap.

Cheap air ticket same thing just cheap.

I saw some baby chicks in the market, they were going cheep.

[Halcyon]

I have a foot in two camps, marine and property development. For the past ten years the UK property development has been working to the buzzword "whole life costings". This echos your initial point of the overall cost of a component against the expected life or cost of ownership. This is where we shouldnt be looking at cost but at value. (and for those in the industry please dont raise the chestunt of value engineering, if applied properly the concept is correct. unfortunately the bean counters get to it and it ends up being cost engineering). Over a 25 year period the typical cost breakdown for building and operating a facility is 20% capital and 80% operational, this data comes from the Building Perfomance Group with whom I worked with in the UK. Whether you see value in increasing your capital costs to reduce your overall whole life cost is directly down to whether the operational costs effect you or not.

It would be interesting to do an analysis on the whole life costs of boat ownership. Does anyone know if this has been done? I would be happy to collaborate with other builder's, charter management and maintainance shops to put this together.

Matt.

[PI Design]

I don't know about boats, but it certainly has for ships. I don't know the figures though. In the UK MoD, different agencies are responsible for the initial acquisition of ships and the through life support. So, as you say, the first agency tries to build the thing cheap and allow the ship to have high maintenace costs. The second agency is constantly lobbying for the ships to be better designed and built in the first place, so they don't have to spend so much looking after them...
Value engineering! You are absolutely right, a decent idea completely misunderstood and mis-applied by bean counters. They fail to understand that something is only better value if it is cheaper whilst offering equal functionality. Not a difficult concept, but I have yet to find an accountant who got it. And they paid soo much...

[Poida]

I paid a premium price for 2 x stainless hooks for my winch and a rope. Both of them opened out with very little weight.

A hook at half the price from a lifting supplier was rated, and was no problem.

A point to make is cheap may not last, but do you want it too.

At my age a cheap item will probably outlast me.

Poida

[Frosty]

Poida-- good point. A tailor wanted to sell me an expensive suit, I said why is it so expensive , he said that it would last 20 years.

Who the hell wants to walk around in the same suit for 20 years. Im not from Cornwall!!

[Bergalia]

....Who the hell wants to walk around in the same suit for 20 years....


Eerrrrrr...I've got a three-piece that's thirty years old. So it's shiney at the knees and seat...and half the buttons are missing...but.....

But better still I've still got my RN skivvy - and after 40 odd years it still fits....Mind you my fashion conscious daughter has now glued sequins to it:(

[timgoz]

Poida,

On a boat that cheap items failure & your death could turn out to be similtaneous events. :(

Hope all is well Ancient One. :)

Tim

[Bergalia]

...Frosty, do not think I ever heard you agree with the Walrus before!Tim


Even more startling Tim - never heard him use the word 'frugal' before...:(

[Poida]

Timgoz, did you not read the hooks that failed. Why can't you pay attention?
In a boat shop they have things that cost a fortune because they make them shiny and ar weak as the stuff that Sa Sam posted on the drivel thread.

Anyway if my boat and I, cease to exist at the same time it suits me. My wife does not want to be left with a carcass, I leave enough rubbish laying around the house as it is, without my remains clogging up the floor space.

I would like to have my ashes scattered in the ocean, so, if I end there, good enough for me.

Thinking of building myself a boat actually. Bit of chicken wire, cover with paper mache, bit of epoxy, no hang on too expensive, shellac, should do the trick. Got an old lawn mower engine in the shed, extend the shaft down the transome to a prop made out of an old room fan. Now the steering is a bit of genius, a tiller that comes from the engine with a seat on the end.
You sit on it and slid to the right if you want to go left, and slide to left if you want to go right.

The paper mache will consist of pages from Playboy and Ralph (composite material) so if you do get stuck a few clicks from shore you've got plenty of reading material.

Nice and cheap and does the job

And to think some people waste their hard earned money on aluminium.

Poida

[Bergalia]

....I would like to have my ashes scattered in the ocean, so, if I end there, good enough for me....Poida

Don't waste them Poida - have your (widow) incorporate them into a cement mix for either a mooring anchor, ballast, or even part of a cement hull.

And stop shouting at my friend Tim....

[timgoz]

Poida,

It is crucial to use the most expensive paper you can obtain! It could mean the difference between staying afloat 1.25 hours vs just 1.0 hrs. :rolleyes:

Ashes in the sea sounds good. In my case they could then wash up and intermingle with my vast worldwide seashell collection. :cool:

Berg,

You tell him! :D

Tim

[M&M Ovenden]

On that subject we came up with a concept that helps us make (maybe) smarter decisions when comes time to spend. We call it “cost of regret” . When facing different well valued options we consider the cost difference between the more costly and cheaper option and consider this value as our cost of regret. Would we, down the road, regret not having spent the extra dollars? What is that valued to us? Is the price difference worth some peace in mind? In case we picked the cheaper option what would be the cost of it being a mistake? That cost becomes the true cost of regret and is often so much more (usually over double the investment) that initially spending a little more appears like a bargain. It happens we find cost of regret to be more than money, it can be life....I would hate to face death or to cause someones death feeling it is a direct consequence of a cheap decision.

So might sound crazy but for every purchase and decision we put a value on possible regret.

Murielle

[safewalrus]

P.I. looking at the MOD and cheap, remember what war canoes are designed to do! on the odd occasion somebody tries to stick holes in them! egg or e.g. (never sure which - that great denzien of the English Language will no doubt tell me, eh 'Snowy')

Any way back in the 70/80's certain war canoes were built with aluminum superstructure partly for cheapness (supposed lightness too but hey that's not part of the aurgument) pretty good eh! Went to a party (sometimes known as Star Wars or 'the Empire Strikes Back' in the Southern regions of the world! the opposition easily put holes in them! Not so bloody cheap then were they (lost some good mates down there but that's beside the point)!! so as the old saying goes "it's horses for courses!"

[Bergalia]

Ah...Dame Thatcher's War. You might add the 'cost' of the 'flash-hoods' - made of nylon instead of wool. Cheaper...but look at the unholy burns they caused when melting instead of just singeing. That economy cost a lot of matelot skin.:mad:

[timgoz]

I think aluminum warships/superstructures can actually burn on their own once temperatures reach a certain point. Certain incendiary (sp?) substances such as thermite could cause this. Thought an exocet missle did this once?

Max, did not hear about the blast hoods. Crazy. Probably a politician making choices that belong to a top soldier.

Tim

[Bergalia]

..Max, did not hear about the blast hoods. Crazy. Probably a politician making choices that belong to a top soldier.Tim

Twas ever thus, Tim. Amatuers deciding on the tools for professionals.
Luckily the scarred Navy boys were banned from taking part in the 'Victory Parade'....their faces would have quite 'spoiled' the day.

[Frosty]

Eerrrrrr...I've got a three-piece that's thirty years old. it:(

My great grandad died wearing a three piece suit, with a gold chain and watch.

30 years old berg? But how do you know how long the bloke before you had it?:rolleyes:

Oh I hate those little smiley gits. I just thought Ide try one.

[PI Design]

Yup, and our ships are now aluminium free. Though I think aluminium was used to save weight, not cost. But it was an expensive lesson.

My mum used to be costume designer and managed to 'inherit' an old suit of Yul Brynner's. I still have it, but it no longer fits - he must have ben a very small fella.

[Bergalia]

...My mum used to be costume designer and managed to 'inherit' an old suit of Yul Brynner's.

A family 'hairloom?'

[PI Design]

As my uncle says "never buy a cheap wig, you don't know where its been".;)

[Bergalia]

Obviously a man ahead of his time....

[safewalrus]

My mum used to be costume designer and managed to 'inherit' an old suit of Yul Brynner's. I still have it, but it no longer fits - he must have ben a very small fella.

Yes but what a fine head of skin!!

[Frosty]

My mum worked at the laundrette and stole Arnold Swartnagers suit ,--It fit perfectly.

[Poida]

Nah Frosty your thinking of Tom Arnold.

Poida

[Frosty]

Walrus is wearing one of Charlie Chaplins hand me downs.

Who the hell is Tom Arnold ?---gimme a movie( film)

[Halcyon]

Ah...Dame Thatcher's War. You might add the 'cost' of the 'flash-hoods' - made of nylon instead of wool. Cheaper...but look at the unholy burns they caused when melting instead of just singeing. That economy cost a lot of matelot skin.:mad:

your kidding. right? What kind of ***k brained idiot thought that one up, 'spect he was too busy counting beans. "..ha'peny worth of tar".

[Poida]

Frosty, Rossanna's ex.

Can't think of a movie.

Poida

[Frosty]

Frosty, Rossanna's ex.Can't think of a movie.Poida


Oh, Oh,- right got ya,--Mmm dont think he did one, big bloke,liked bowling and always wore a red kinda lumberjack shirt.

Na I dont look like him, (pssssst people say I look like Eryl Flynn I dont see it myself but who am I to argue. Actually as I get older,--- errrrr mature, I look more like sir Antony Hopkins,---so they say?)

[Bergalia]

.... people say I look like Eryl Flynn I dont see it myself but who am I to argue.


No, no Frosty - fair play you look exactly like Eryl Flynn...(he was one of Santa's little helpers...actually a leprechaun who had emigrated to Hollywood...) But nothing like Errol Flynn.

[Frosty]

To get back on subject ---cheap. Yes I like cheap beer, I am drinking some now look--slurp slurp--burp----ahhhh lovely. It not actually cheap as in guality it is cheap because I live on a duty free island at the top of malacca straits. just a tad under Thailand and bit up from Pinang. Anyway -slurp- its good for me here.

4 of us went out last night for a meal ,--no i didnt pay for it, anyway we had fish and curry and vegies and peppered beef and oh all sorts of stuff.

I had a bucket of beer. Thats a bucket with ice and 5 beers in it.

I believe looking over my mates shoulder it came to about 30 dollar, thats US dollar.

So not so cheap after all --slurp.

[Poida]

Frosty, you must be drunk, you said you didn't pay for it, and then followed by saying it was $30 US so not cheap.

If you didn't pay for it, it's cheap regardless of the cost.

If I go to a party where the beers provided. I buy a $10 present and drink $50 worth of beer. Now that's cheap.

Not the beer me!

Poida

[Frosty]

Jeeees 50 dollars of beer, what the f$% --do you spill most of it or what?

Well I dont worry about that side of things too much I know that if im invited then its my bubbling personality that people enjoy and not that I bring the value of my drinking expectations. Unlike Walrus who was invited to his friends 60th birthday recently starved himself all day so he could stuff more food in his face.

How many times have I asked shall I bring something,-- Oh no just bring yourself they say ha ha. ( is this the drivel thread?) oooopps

[Poida]

Yeah well if they say, yes bring something, I bring one of me mates.

Free Loader Poida

[KnottyBuoyz]

So not so cheap after all --slurp.
Sheez, now we need a "dribble" thread! ;)

[marshmat]

That we do, KB ;)
The earlier part of this thread reminded me of browsing around a certain marine supply shop at the other end of the lake.... I was shocked to see a one-inch SS shackle listing for $32 or so, compared to the $4 that the comparable galvanized part goes for at the normal hardware store. SS is certainly not eight times the price of galvanized steel, is it? Tiller extension handles for the outboard were over a hundred bucks. This morning I installed a very similar one I fabricated in three hours out of $10 worth of aluminum. Works just as well at less than a tenth of the price, and with a coat of Tremclad it looks just as nice.
So yes, there are ways to beat the price-gouging demons. The trick has got to be, figuring out which low-cost options aren't going to cost you in other ways.

[safewalrus]

Marshmat - shiny always costs more, don't matter how you get the shine! If it looks shiny it costs!

[safewalrus]

Frosty I do believe it's true you DO look like Errol Flynn - how longs he been dead? :p

[Bergalia]

That we do, KB ;)
I was shocked to see a one-inch SS shackle listing for $32 or so, compared to the $4 that the comparable galvanized part goes for at the normal hardware store.

It's a point I've made before in earlier threads dealing with 'economic' boat building. Bottle-screws, shackles, chain, and many other 'galavanised' fittings always seem to prove 50 - 75 percent 'cheaper' - yet give as good a service. And if you want 'shiney' - a lick of paint serves as well.

[Frosty]

Stainless steel was invented in the 4o's I think. It was invented for making stainless steel sinks. Its not much good for anything else.

I laugh at these people with st/st anchor chains.

Oh its pretty good for hand rails and ---errrm.

[Bergalia]

Stainless steel was invented in the 4o's.. It was invented for making stainless steel sinks.... I laugh at these people with st/st anchor chains.


Why laugh Frosty. It makes their anchors sink doesn't it ?

[timgoz]

That is not as bad as a polished stainless anchor. I prefer an anchor that is ugly. Looks more workmanlike.

Tim

[Poida]

I prefer an anchor that is ugly. Looks more workmanlike

And your women?

Poida

[timgoz]

As for women, I like mine good looking. You got to be willing to "go to work".

:)

Tim

[artemis]

Stainless steel was invented in the 4o's I think. It was invented for making stainless steel sinks. Its not much good for anything else.

I laugh at these people with st/st anchor chains.

Oh its pretty good for hand rails and ---errrm.

:P :D :) Actually it was invented in 1912 by Harry Brearley of Sheffield, England. It was first used in knives. 'Course, you wouldn't have known that, "snowball", as you were still using stone knives. The reason you've confused it with stainless steel sinks is was that you first encountered it as a flush toilet and, because it had running water, you thought it was a sink. :) :D :P

[safewalrus]

Can't understand all this about stainless steel sinks - of course it does! so does every other kind of steel! Its made out of stone isn't it! Ok you gotta get it kinda hot to work it but it's still stone!

So Atermis looks like you were right when you said 'Snowy' used stone knives! I'm surprised he knows what a knife is for?

[Frosty]

Dont you just admire these people that google something then come back at you will ALL the information dates etc like they some F$%^ professor.

They are so cool when they start the post ---Actually---

Sheffield is in Yorkshire.

[Poida]

I wouldn't like a stainless steel boat if it sinks.

Poida

[Frosty]

Stainless steel stinks,-- it is the most usless material.

For some reason it is glorified as a magnificent wonder steel that will not rust,(staved of oxygen it rust like normal steel) it cracks and does all kinds of silly things that you dont want on a boat. It cost around 30% more to make (thats all) simply because of its Chromium content.

Ok Artemis google up !!!!!! Lets hear it.

[PsiPhi]

But it's pretty ! ! !

[lazeyjack]

well I can honestly say I never googles and pasted here BUT I will say there is SS and SS, like that Avesta high ten 2025??> I am getting old, made all my stocks and shafts with it,and you can reduce dia. no end and now cant remember, but its excellent in warm salt water which normally stuff SS, which yes is generally highly overated , like the ss screws in my noodle are rusting, and thats the only reason I cant use cad, frosty you useless bastard wheres my rep points> you gave me so many neg ones I spose you can' t undo it yet?:P

[safewalrus]

Yes Frosty Sheffield is Indeed in Yorkshire (Just), guess the People's Republic of Sheffield wouldn't want to be in England would they?

[Frosty]

frosty you useless bastard wheres my rep points> you gave me so many neg ones I spose you can' t undo it yet?:P

Lazy --Trying to sweet talk me into giving you points again? Im pointed out,-- no have,-- finito Ille keep clickin though. ive given walrus a **** load in the years,-- the usless bastard has never reciprocated (that means given back Walrus) Bloody Sotherners.

[safewalrus]

This could be embarassing - I am not a tite barsteward, but I have a small problem? how do you give these rather mythical points - did I but know I might actually give some . . there again....

[Frosty]

Walrus me ole mate how are you today. Go to one of my posts --any one and If you click onto the little icon on the top that says 'post feedback' you should get a little box that lets you give points or take away.

If you need any further assistance please dont hesitate to ask, Alright mate ---see you later then,--bye.

[Poida]

I tried that myself Frosty and it just said Do I agree or Don't I agree and add to Frosty's reputation.

I haven't given you a point have I?

If so how do I get it back?

Poida

[Frosty]

How do I know it was you? I received the points in the bank at 12.03. You posted at 12.07 Mmmm it could you you I suppose.

Ok I just clicked it and it says I gotta spread some around before giving points to poida again---what can I do? Ille keep clicking.

I got 104 points na na na na!!!!!!

Thank you poida . I dont care what they say about you,-- I think your all right mate --buddy.

[timgoz]

Man Frosty, you keep being so bloody nice to everyone (it's a little sickening), and you will surpass the Walrus & Berg!

Tim :cool:

[timgoz]

See you already got Walrus.

[Frosty]

Oh yeah ---tee hee hee.:p

[safewalrus]

Hey Frosty tried wot you said and it sez I can't give you anymore? that can't be right me give you points? naw something wrong somewhere!

[longliner45]

I heard you can cash points in for beer,,,,,,,I think Jeff is in charge of this,longliner

[Frosty]

Walrus you must have made a mistake .I have checked all my points wich are named,--unless you mean negative ones. So no you hav'nt given me points ----mate.

Thats ok Im over the moon with 104 that'le do for me,--dont even deserve those really.

[longliner45]

jack you are correct ,,so lets cash them in and drink some beer,,longliner

[Frosty]

Well I dont know about cashing them in for beer, But it is Fri and that is the day that I show my liver the gates of hell.

[safewalrus]

Hey snowman IF I gave you points (which I doubt) I wouldn't have told you - I mean you crow enough as it is! if you thought I'd been nice to you you would be unbearable (what you mean that's what your trying to be?)

[timgoz]

"But it is friday and that is the day I show my liver the gates of Hell".

That is a classic Frosty.

Tim