Double end power boats?

[duluthboats]

The double end power boat, where has it gone? We all have a dream boat that we work on back in those dark spaces in our minds. Well my dream boat is a double ender. Something like SailDesign’s, Myrddin (http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=615&password=&sort=1&thecat=500) . Now I’ve never been one to follow the pack, but with as much time as I spend looking at and reading about boats, I find very few power boats with two pointy ends. Is there a valid reason for this or is this another case where the cost per foot of dock has driven design changes.


Gary :D

[SailDesign]

duluth,
Thanks for the mention. I think the problem with double-enders these days is that there are very few _motor_ boats (as opposed to power boats) being built. By that I mena true displacement boats. A double-ender will never plane, or even come close to it, and so people just aren't interested anymore.
I know that's a rather defeatist attitude, but after having Myrddin on the web for a while, I have had lots of enquiries (mostly from folks who want free plans) and they all go quiet when i mention a top speed of 7.5 or 8 knots if they're lucky. They seem to think 20-25 would be better. Ah-huh!

Steve "still likes them slow boats...."

[duluthboats]

Another beauty!! (http://www.trabatsakuten.nu/batbilder/snipor_motorseglare/images/isabella.jpg)

NO WAKE seems to be the rule rather than the exception these days. Why not do it in comfort and style. I think the smaller power requirements would offset the less efficient use of length. But then I spend most of my boating time in a 16’ solo canoe.

Gary :D

[SailDesign]

Gary - No wake is a good one. It is, of course, somewhat rare these days, with most power boats slowing down to make maximum wash when if they would just frikkin speed up the wash would be reduced 10-fold and we could complain about speeding ;-)
Smaller power requirements? LOL!! When folks in the US start buying Yugos nd Fiats instead of SUVs, then you can think about low-consumption motor-boats. And only then.
It's a great thought, though, and it is truly nice that there are such visionaries as ourselves out there to keep the flame lit ;-))

Steve

[Willallison]

But wait! Who ever said boats are always about compromise? You can have it all!
.......well, sort of......
A boat with a round bum that goes fast!

www.apreamare.com

[Willallison]

there was meant to be a pic in there, but it seems to have beed lost in cyberspace....

ok - so they aren't exactly in the spirit of your discussion and they kind of cheat by having hull extensions out each side, so they're not really round. And I guess they say more about style than substance...but they are Italian!:D

how about these:
http://www.willardmarine.com/

[gonzo]

Double enders of proper design plane. For example sharpies and dories do. So does the Bartender.

[SailDesign]

Willallison says that www.apreamare.com are italian, and he is right. But really, I mean - come ON, Will! Sheesh - gimme a break, man!
Sorry - I mean...... they are fugly. REALLY fugly.
Ugh! Shudder.....

Gonzo - shame on you - I ain't never seed a double-ended sharpie plane (ain't seed many double-ended sharpies a tall...)
As for Bartender, well..... OK - it planes. But it cheats.
Steve ;-P

[Tad]

Gary;

It's that boat manufacturer's (not boat builders) are selling interior volume. This means that your product is actually more ugly than the next guy's, but, look at all that interior volume. This sells at indoor boat shows, where you can't even look at the boats exterior. It also sells to people who have no historic context for what a boat should look like.

Very few builders understand selling exterior looks, Hinckley is one that does. They fell into it by dumb luck. But the pressure to pump up the interior is fantastic.

A few years back I was lucky enough to have a couple of guys come along who wanted to build a beautiful boat that was really economical. We did it, the Memory 38 resulted, full displacement hull, she cruises at 7.5 knots with a 50 HP engine and uses about .75 gph. Hundreds of folks have been aboard her, and admired her, but no one has bought one. Painful lesson.

The folks marketing the Logan 33, www.heritagelaunch.com (http://www.heritagelaunch.com) are up against the same problem. Good looking boats that perform as they always have are very difficult to sell.

So as designers we have to show people they can have a good looking boat that will also perform really well. I'm engaged in this crusade somewhat with the Passagemaker Lite design series. They are boats with somewhat less interior, but good looking exteriors (IMO!), coupled with excellent performance. I hope to have some success with this formula, we'll see.

There is a French company, Latitude 46, who seem to be having some success at this. They are producing good looking boats that really perform and are not copies of something from the past. They are modern hulls that take advantage of modern construction and propulsion systems.

Planing double enders? Of course, but it will be a new design, taking advantage of all we now know about planing hulls, modern construction, and propulsion. The shape of the ends can be anything you like, but with the right bottom, the right power/weight ratio, and centers in the right spots, no problem.

Liberty is not a double ender, but she does have a very round butt. She planes nicely, some say beautifully. Before she was built some folks said that stern would be a problem unless it was cut off square. I said nonsense, her bottom was right, and the power is there, so she planes.

Lately I've been looking at some awesome antique Swedish powerboat sites, there are some double enders there. Elegant good looks, coupled with stunning performance, that's where we need to go.

My best to all, Tad.

[Willallison]

Saildesign: Fair point, then again I could have pointed you towards these, which are at best no better looking....

http://www.menorquin.com/menorquin_uk.asp?pagina=http://www.menorquin.com/ingles/llaut/index.htm

These guys take the term boarding platform to a whole new level

[Willallison]

Latitude 46:
http://www.tofinou.com/gamme/index.php?bateau=TOF&chglg=en

Beautiful looking craft Tad and I concur with all your remarks. There are plenty of examples of older double-ender speed boats which planed. And correctly designed, it shouldn't be too hard to achieve. The question though is whether a planing double-ender is any more or less efficient than its square-butted cousin? The lift you lose by chopping off the corners must have some effect...

[SailDesign]

Tad - Swedish double-enders? I have a mental image, and it's not a bad one. Thanks for reminding me.

Will - the Menoquin boats are "interesting". I wouldn't call them ugly straight off, it takes a while to see that. ;-)
As for the swimming platform - well, 'nuff said.

I think, as Tad said, that the pronblem (even with the Swedish-style boats) will be selling them to "real" customers. The folks who like funky old wooden launches will always have one, and it will probably be original. Introducing others to the same style, but not necessarily in aging wood? Could be tough, but it's worth trying.
Steve

[gonzo]

Saildesign: sharpies are traditionally double ended. They were later modified with transoms and other trappings. I have planed in double ended flat bottomed boats many times. In Uruguay , where I grew up, flat bottom double enders are the usual fishing boat. They are built in mahogany and powerd by a 10 to 15 HP outboard.

[SailDesign]

Gonzo - I looked through Chapelle's book "American Samll Sailing Craft" (my only real reference here) and could only find one double-ender. Lots of round-stern boats, lotsa of square, but only one double. I have to admit, that one did look good. ;-)
Do you have any references for traditional double-ended sharpies, I'm curious......
Also, from what part of the wrold are you taking the term "Sharpie", as it does mean different things to different areas, like the word "wherry"
Steve

[gonzo]

I agree that sharpie has different meanings depending on the area and historical context. If you have Chapelle's book, check the 34' model. I had one of them, and it planed under sail. The drawback while planing, is that there is so much spray forward it is impossible to see anything. Even a shallow vee in the forward section makes the spray go sideways and aft. The double ended sharpies are very similar to a downeast dory. However, the freeboard is lower and the bottom has a bit less rocker. I'll see what references I can get you. I'm just back from working out of town for three weeks.

[Marko]

To all,

How many of you remember the use of squat boards on traditional Chesapeake Bay workboats. Chapelle mentions them (I have forgotten where) and there are also some illustrations in Harry Sucher's books on Simplified Boatbuilding. This idea should be given some thought. Since they could be employed like trim tabs, they would be most effective as speed increases, dynamically eliminating settling of the stern as planing speeds are approached.

Comments?

[gonzo]

They call them "hobbles" locally. They developed to correct the squatting on sailboat hulls converted to power.

[Tom Lathrop]

I guess that I'm the outcast here since I like the look of properly proportioned transom sterned boats. I do see some "double enders" that appeal but many seem to look a bit forced. Tad is certainly right in that the shape of the stern above the water has nothing to do with the boats performance, displacement or planing. It's all in the shape under water. The traditional double ended pangas of Latin America grew the under water wings, whatever they are called, in order to take the large outboards that they now use. Calkin's Bartender is often fitted with these also in an attempt to keep the stern from squating so much when planing.

If a boat is to plane and be efficient doing it, it must lift the forward hull out of the water to decrease wetted surface. This requires that the stern be depressed to take an efficient trim angle to develop adequate dynamic lift to support the weight of the boat. A true double ender is not going to like this since there is insufficient lifting surface back there. Planing double enders do so in spite of, not because of, the pointy stern.

Long narrow boats with double end bottoms like Weston Farmer's Coyote are designed to make reasonably high speed in the upper teens and are very efficient doing it. I doubt that anyone could be a success at selling such a boat though. Martin's Energy 48, built during the 70's fuel crunch, was a good example and like the Memory, it did not sell.

[Willallison]

I guess that I'm the outcast here since I like the look of properly proportioned transom sterned boats.

...nope - or if you are, we can cast out together! I hate powerboats with pointy bums - except for a very few heavy displacement passagemaker types

[gonzo]

Flat bottom double enders with no rocker plane well. However, you got to withstand the pounding. It is not as bad as on a skiff.

[waterman]

I saw that statement and was surprised. Has every one forgotten the designs of George Crouch? Baby Bootlegger and Typhoon were both double enders! (Although I'm not sure if they have stepped bottoms or not....(which might be considered cheating)).

[djwkd]

Hi-my friend would like to build this boat so i need to ask the specifications and if you could give me free plans!!!!!!!I Also hope that this post will bring the thread to life.PS:sorry if this is a double post!

[SC1]

The double end power boat, where has it gone? We all have a dream boat that we work on back in those dark spaces in our minds. Well my dream boat is a double ender. Something like SailDesign’s, Myrddin (http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=615&password=&sort=1&thecat=500) . Now I’ve never been one to follow the pack, but with as much time as I spend looking at and reading about boats, I find very few power boats with two pointy ends. Is there a valid reason for this or is this another case where the cost per foot of dock has driven design changes.


Gary :D
What do you think about this Miss?

[FAST FRED]

Tad And Tom are right , boats are sold by the LOA /visable internal room equation.

Efficient long slim boats are out of style as slip space is sold by the LOA , not sq ft of boat.

So the 40loa by 22 beam is a winner in the market place. To move it requires massive power , so "mine is bigger than yours" power rating , is a plus for the dockbound boat owners.

Actually the boats "owner" is a bankster some place that allows the purchaser to operate the boat between payments.

How much it "Costs" is never the question , "how much per MONTH " is.

This probably wont change very much during our lifetimes.

If you want to see efficient boats , look on a mooring , not dockside, as a knowledgable owner has no need for the power hose, and its expenses.

A mooring can run 1/20 to 1/50 the expense of a slip, or less, and LOA is no problem.

FF

[Guillermo]

Gary;

It's that boat manufacturer's (not boat builders) are selling interior volume. This means that your product is actually more ugly than the next guy's, but, look at all that interior volume. This sells at indoor boat shows, where you can't even look at the boats exterior. It also sells to people who have no historic context for what a boat should look like.
....Very few builders understand selling exterior looks.... But the pressure to pump up the interior is fantastic.
....Good looking boats that perform as they always have are very difficult to sell.


Big and sad truth!

[djwkd]

Does anyone KNOW the specs???(sorry about caps-im on quick post and can't do italic)and does anyone actually HAVE the plans????

[tom28571]

Does anyone KNOW the specs???(sorry about caps-im on quick post and can't do italic)and does anyone actually HAVE the plans????

It might help if it was known what you are asking about.

[Willallison]

Ok - so not [Iall[/I] double-enders are butt-ugly (pun intended, sorry...), SC1 has proved that.

If you want to see efficient boats , look on a mooring , not dockside, as a knowledgable owner has no need for the power hose, and its expenses.


FF - I beg to differ. Just because you can afford the convenience of a marina berth, doesn't mean you aren't a knowledgeable owner

[kerosene]

old thread however I'll drop in

you can find lots of photos from google searches with merilainen + vene (boat in finnish) (meriläinen is correct) or fiskari + vene or retkivene

This type of boats are fairly common family boats in Finnish coast and lakes. I think they are still being manufactured and they do have pretty strong following.

example:
http://www.mikavanhala.fi/venesivut/veneet/kiiski01/

[Pericles]

Tom,

Re your post of 27th May

djwkd is the tyke on Tyneside who wants to drift on a raft.

http://www.freewebs.com/raftbuilders/

He last posted on 20th July leading me to think he set off on his adventure, with predictable results. :(

Let's hope he sees this post.

Pericles

[achipmunk]

No wake is a good one. agree with Steven..

[dobsong]

duluth,
Thanks for the mention. I think the problem with double-enders these days is that there are very few _motor_ boats (as opposed to power boats) being built. By that I mena true displacement boats. A double-ender will never plane, or even come close to it, and so people just aren't interested anymore.
I know that's a rather defeatist attitude, but after having Myrddin on the web for a while, I have had lots of enquiries (mostly from folks who want free plans) and they all go quiet when i mention a top speed of 7.5 or 8 knots if they're lucky. They seem to think 20-25 would be better. Ah-huh!

Steve "still likes them slow boats...."

Bartenders! up to 29' and 30+ knots!

[FAST FRED]

A double ender does look nice , BUT if I were looking for both practical and nice looking the round stern of the std tug does just fine.

The ability to pivot the boat against a wall or piling is a delight , and the aft deck doesn't loose too much space from the lack of corners , or a second pointy end.

FF

[tom28571]

A double ender does look nice , BUT if I were looking for both practical and nice looking the round stern of the std tug does just fine.

The ability to pivot the boat against a wall or piling is a delight , and the aft deck doesn't loose too much space from the lack of corners , or a second pointy end.

FF

Ah, Freddie, doing a lot of backing into walls are ye?

The one point that seems to be difficult to get across is that the shape of the stern above water has diddly effect on whether a boat will plane or not. It's only the shape of the part that meets the water that determines. Even there it is only the horizontal part aft that is important. The bottom can be truncated in points, rounded or like Mickey's ears if you like and if the boat meets the criteria stated by Tad earlier, it will plane.

[Tad]

the shape of the stern above water has diddly effect on whether a boat will plane or not.

Just for fun I'll be nit-picky and say I disagree...:D

If there was no boat at all above the planing surface...she would perform very well. Weight would be low and windage negligible. It would be great unless you met a wave or wanted to use the boat for something!

[marshmat]

Tad,
I think most of us have seen that photo of an outboard strapped to the back of an inverted kitchen table..... reportedly, it planes- fast- but I'd hate to meet a wave in such a thing.

As far as double ender power boats go- there was a comment what, five years ago on this thread, that people don't want a motor launch anymore. They want a powerboat, with the perceived ability to go 25-30 knots, even if the boat is horrifically thirsty and insanely uncomfortable at that speed. And frankly, when your marina bill is $2000-$3000 a year and your fuel bill is $10 a mile, someone who is only going out for occasional short trips a few times a season will often find it more economical to own a short, bulky boat that minimizes dock fees at the expense of terrible fuel mileage and rough-weather performance.

There is a market segment that I think would naturally be drawn to efficient displacement motor boats- older sailors contemplating a transition to low-physical-labour power cruising. But that doesn't seem to be a particularly big group, especially with the prevalence of powered sail-handling gear these days.

[tom28571]

Tad,

I don't know what to say. You have me there. Slow day in the San Juan's?

Matt,

There are a few of us on the forum who have that same goal in mind. Not always the same, but the main goal is how to be in the powerboating world and still afford to eat and raise the kids. The main division seems to be between those who are content to go slow and those who want the ability to cruise at twice or three times "hull speed" or higher if desired. Some want the higher to be a lot higher and some are content with a max of 20 knots or so. There is not a lot of consensus as witness the long running option one thread.

The double end vs transom thing does not even come into this argument. That is strictly an opinion on aesthetics unless one is talking about a true double ender, which is relegated to the displacement world. It's true that a few like the Bartender get past that restriction by cheating on the shape of the bottom and adding transom wings or other hidden contrivances. The Whio, featured in Woodenboat a couple years ago looks like a double ender but the designer cleverly hid a very nice planing hull under the water. For someone who doesn't much like pointy sterns on boats, sail or power, I'd say that Whio is the prettiest one I've seen.

[PAR]

I have a 39' double ended motor yacht with a 60 HP and an outboard hung rudder. It easy does slightly better then displacement speed with this current diesel/prop combination. It weighs in at 8 tons and I'm grateful it was designed with motoring efficiency in mind.

I remember "Whio" as well. An Australian built craft with clever weight reduction in her scantlings if memory serves me.

[dobsong]

I have a 39' double ended motor yacht with a 60 HP and an outboard hung rudder. It easy does slightly better then displacement speed with this current diesel/prop combination. It weighs in at 8 tons and I'm grateful it was designed with motoring efficiency in mind.

I remember "Whio" as well. An Australian built craft with clever weight reduction in her scantlings if memory serves me.

Whio..... wasn't that NZ built?

[tom28571]

Yes, it is a Kiwi. A beautiful boat and apparently has impressive performance and seaworthy characteristics. I thought it also made some serious compromises to achieve these successes. An expensive and complex construction and spartan accommodations. Way too many compromises in my view, but horses for courses.

[dobsong]

Yes, it is a Kiwi. A beautiful boat and apparently has impressive performance and seaworthy characteristics. I thought it also made some serious compromises to achieve these successes. An expensive and complex construction and spartan accommodations. Way too many compromises in my view, but horses for courses.

Yep a boat built for a very specific purpose. That is safe, speedy, comfortable coastal passages and to be able to cope with some serious seas. All this seems to have been achieved with fuel consumption of 2 litres per hour at 10 knots. and around 7 litres per hour at 17 knots!

You can read about her at http://www.steamlaunch.co.nz/Whio.html

But as you say horses for courses..... some like em long and lean and some like em fat and hungry (bit like the "built for comfort... " opps i digress!)

[dobsong]

Yes, it is a Kiwi. A beautiful boat and apparently has impressive performance and seaworthy characteristics. I thought it also made some serious compromises to achieve these successes. An expensive and complex construction and spartan accommodations. Way too many compromises in my view, but horses for courses.


http://www.woodenboat-digital.com/woodenboat/20060506/?pg=73

[PAR]

Oops, my bad about the country of origin. I too have reservations about some of the compromises made, but if it suits the client, it's well intended.

[334REG]

I just purchased a Saga 20, it's double ended and with it's MD2020 burns one quart diesel per hour at 7knts. There web site is Sagaboats.no

[334REG]

Check out Sagaboats.no

[Easy Rider]

Gonzo,
Sharpies are not double ended boats. They only have rounded transoms. A double ended boat is pointed or highly rounded below the water line. The Bartender is a planing hull and I don't consider them double enders. Their performance would hardly change at all if one gave them a flat stern. Perhaps I need to change my scope on what a double ender really is. I know my Willard Nomad is a double ender but it would be more efficient if it was pointed instead of rounded but like TAD says ..volume. Millions of people think the early Ford Mustang is a sports car.

Easy

[Joe Petrich]

My own interpretation of a double ender is a vessel whose hull shape comes to a pointed or rounded end above and below the water. I think my definition is fairly broad. Needless to say, I love narrow efficient boats.

So I might call this a "planing double ender". It's a Fairliner Torpedo designed by Dair Long who designed the fastest boats of WWII, the air-sea rescue boats, and built by the Fairliner division of Western Boat Building Co. in the late 40s. There are no hidden planing surfaces. The bottom comes to a point at the end. The performance was quite good with 6 cylinder power Although the picture doesn't do it justice as it is moving fairly slowly.

[334REG]

In the late 60's I sailed a double ended 65' ketch to Hawaii from Sausalito. She stayed in Lahaina for years as a dinner cruise excursion. Her name was VIAJERO spanish for traveler. Would love to know her whereabouts now or if she is still around. Reg

[Easy Rider]

Hi Joe,
They had cars in the 20s and 30s that looked like that too but that didn't make them double enders. The word double implies that both ends of the boat are the basically the same. An Adirondack Guide boat and a canoe are double enders. A Pea Pod, Viking Long Ship, and basically a dory are double enders. Pseudo double enders are common but "true" double enders can be turned around and run backwards as well or almost as well as forward. Many to most people think the Grand Banks yacht is a displacement hull but almost nobody would say they are a "true" displacement hull ..because the're not. Ther'e is this very valid element of degree. If you were addressing a group of stock brokers I'd say you could get away w calling the Fairliner Torpedo a double .. but here???. My Willard isn't really a double ender in my opinion. It has a full rounded transom and would not go gracefully backwards nor does the stern really look like the bow. 42405

42404

Look in the April issue of Woodenboat Magazine to see many many real and true double enders.

Easy Rider

[Joe Petrich]

Easy,

I would have to politely disagree with your statement that a true double ender can be run backwards as well or almost as well as forwards. By that definition the only true double enders would be ferry boats and canoes. Also some tugs with cycloidal drives actually run better in reverse in some cases despite their hull shapes being different fwd and aft. The Wedel Foss shown below is a good example of this. I would say your boat is a double ender. In any case I think there is enough ambiguity in the term to allow for different interpretations.

Cheers,
Joe

[Easy Rider]

Joe,
Our ferry boats don't go backwards. Calling them a boat is a stretch too. I guess your'e right on all counts. Perhaps I'm in the purist category. Some things are grey and some black and white. The double end boat concept is obviously hard stuck in the grey however there are many double end boats in April Woodenboat Magazine that are 100% double enders.

Cheers
Easy

[TollyWally]

Joe,
Are you relations to the Petrichs of Western Boatbuilding, Fairliner, etc.?

[Joe Petrich]

Yes I am.

[messabout]

One more to add to the planing double ender list. OK so it's a sailboat and a full on racer at that. The International 10 sq. meter canoe is a double ender because the rules dictate that it shall be. Yes, I know it is not in the same category as that intended by the original post.

[Easy Rider]

Mess,
Yes. A real double ender .. Intl 110. I was going to mention it but wasn't sure I had the name right. One thing thats great about flat bottomed sail boats is that when heeled smartly they become a deep V hull. Even though they are quite fast I think they are really full displacement hulls. Even at rest both ends are clear of the water due to enough rocker. Without the rocker it would be a planing hull but even then it's questionable and w power applied it would clearly be a FD hull.

Easy

[messabout]

Easy; the Int 110 was the brainchild of Ray Hunt a long time ago. It was essentially a double ended, square box with a fin and bulb keel. It was a very spirited boat as displacement types go. Its' strength was as you say; when heeled it presents an elegant vee shape to the water. As good and as simple as the 110 was, it never quite made it to the big time. The reason was that it was boxy and did not look like something that could be percieved as a "proper boat". Those snooty sailors, with their proper boats, too often, could only see the back end of the 110.

The International 10 Sq. meter canoe is a horse of a completely different color. They IC is a furious planing hull that is a double ender, but the taper of the aft end, is by rule, not to exceed 45 degrees per side. It is no surprise that they almost always configure the aft end, as seen in plan view, to be as nearly flat as the rules will permit. The boat is 17 feet long and one meter wide. More modern ones are less than one meter in beam. They can plane to windward when sailed by a competant IC skipper. A skinney boat with 10 meters of sail needs something other than magic to hold it upright. The IC uses a sliding hiking plank which is highly efficient and I swear it is easier to use than a trapeze. You may have seen these somewhere or at least pictures of them in action. The IC is a small but active class of racing boats that seem to attract technical types. One of the foremost of those technofreaks is a hydrodynamicist at the Annapolis Naval Academy.

[Easy Rider]

Mess,
Thanks. I can't believe how often I find a remarkable boat has been designed by Ray Hunt.
Oh ... I didn't know about the 10 sq. meter canoe. I thought you just left off a zero.
Interesting about the high performance sail boats. I saw a video/movie about sailboat racing and the photography was, as the kids say, awsome. Being a sailor youv'e prolly seen it.

Easy

[Tad]

This....I believe...is a double-ender....

42489

[Easy Rider]

TAD,
If you were to ask "would it help sell this boat to call it a double ender"? You would answer yes and then call it a double ender as you are selling this boat I'm sure. I think it's the aluminum boat on your web site. That boat looks so good to me I'm going to show it to a friend and he may buy it but I will not call it a double ender because it's pointed or tapered stern does almost nothing to change or enhance the performance or dynamic qualities of the boat. The name of something should reflect some significant or hopefully dominant feature of the thing to hearld what it is. And the performance of the "double ender" you present has almost nothing to do with it's rounded stern w a crease on the CL. Name it something that draws attention to some important feature or design capability. The big problem is when a real double ender comes along what are you going yo call it? If you call the Bartender and your boat a double ender the meaning of the expression double ender has been reduced 80%.
When you call a flat stern Lund type skiff a rowboat you fog or haze the meaning of the word rowboat to the point that it has little meaning.
I see on your website "blog.tadroberts" an old fishboat "Sea Star". Now thats a double ender!

Easy

[Tad]

TAD,
because it's pointed or tapered stern does almost nothing to change or enhance the performance or dynamic qualities of the boat.


And what is your basis for making this statement?



Below is a double-ended sharpie...Egret. Note that her topsides and bottom terminate in a stern post.
42541

These are double-enders, Scottish fishing boats, again the bottom and topsides terminate in an obvious stern post.
42542

This is a dory with a transom...it is not a double-ender and has no stern post.
42543

This is a Scandinavian double-ender, stern post is obvious.
42544

This is a double-ended Gunning dory, note the stern post.
42545

[Tad]

TAD,
The name of something should reflect some significant or hopefully dominant feature of the thing to hearld what it is. And the performance of the "double ender" you present has almost nothing to do with it's rounded stern w a crease on the CL. Name it something that draws attention to some important feature or design capability.

The boat is called the TimberCoast Troller, and it's marketed by Bartender Boats as such. An interpretation of a traditional double-ended West Coast troller, adapted for construction in sheet material, aluminum or plywood. Her hull is of full displacement form, with a single chine and deep-vee bottom, terminating in an obvious stern post. She is double-ended and does not have a round stern. Note that there is almost no wake at cruising speed, another distinguishing feature of the double-ended form.

42546

42547

[Tad]

a real double ender


Please define?

This is a double-ender
42548

This is not a double-ender
42549

This is a double-ender
42550

These are double-enders
42551

This is a double-ender
42552

[Joe Petrich]

Easy,

Whose definition of double ender are you using?

Overlook Illustrated Dictionary of Nautical Terms: "A vessel with a pointed end at both front and back. The term is also used, however, in a broader sense to describe any vessal with a similar front and back whether pointed or not."

www.seatalk.info: "Describing a vessel with a pointed shape to the hull both bow and stern"

Miriam Webster: Main Entry: dou·ble–end·er
Pronunciation: \-dər\
Function: noun
Date: 1864
: a ship or boat with bow and stern of similar shape

If you wish to change the definition as you see it to suit your own concepts who's to argue? But I think most people are happy with the accepted definition. That's my opinion.

[dreamer]

hey now...

let's talk canoe sterns!

:p

[u4ea32]

I vote with Tad on this double ended topic.

I vote with Dreamer on canoe sterns! My favorite!

[Easy Rider]

TAD,
I thought your TimberCoast Troller was like a Bartender in the stern. Now I even like it more myself but my friend wouldn't want a disp boat ..sorry. I accept everything in your subsequent posts except the sternpost has nothing to do w "double end" but your saying a Bartender is a double ender and a dory is not is not right. I agree w Joe Petrich and his Overlook Dictionary "similar front and back". Well I guess I was right in the first place ..my Willard is extremely bulbous in the stern and actually a bit hollow in the bow... not a double ender. The Willard stern is not pointed. Bow and stern too different. Even the Bartender is more pointed than the Willard. And a tugboat w a bulbous bow and stern is a double ender. And if my Willard's bow looked like the stern it would be a double ender. TAD, your TimberCoast Troller is a double ender to be sure (after seeing her stern). It was rude of me to say you were using the expression double ender to sell your boat. I'm sorry about that. I really like your boats and your web site and almost everything you say as well. Oh and thanks for the great pics too.

Easy

[ancient kayaker]

The canoe style power boat is a classic; precious few new ones. Not quite gone with the wind, there are lots of them still around, lovingly preserved from antiquity. It seems to me they are all on loan to the local boat museum, taking advantage of the free mooring no doubt, and only get taken out for the annual regatta when their owners show up in a plastic monstrosity with a great chunk of noisy metal hanging over the stern. Sigh.

Personally, if I wanted anything that old in style, I’d want to go all the way and use steam power and maybe paddlewheels. Hmm; my canoes and kayaks are double-enders ...

[Tad]

Describing and defining a canoe stern is even more difficult than the double-ender. A boat with a canoe stern might be a double-ender, or not. And a double-ender might have a canoe stern....but it may not!

I think of canoe sterns as finer and more graceful than the typical Colin Archer double-ender. Canoe sterns always have inboard rudders. The odd part is that canoe stern shapes have nothing in common with the indigenous canoes of North America. They do seem to be descended from the canoe yawl shapes popularized in the UK in the early 1900's. These small cruising sailboats were somewhat descended from the double-ended cruising canoe Rob Roy used by John MacGregor in the mid 1800's.

Amateur designers Albert Strange (1855-1917) and George Holmes (1861-1940) did a great deal to popularize the canoe yawl type by creating and sailing these small but capable vessels on some challenging cruises.

This is a MacGregor type canoe from which canoe yawls descended....which does not (to my mind) have a canoe stern but she is double-ended.
42571

A canoe yawl by Albert Strange
42572

Sterns defined by Ted Brewer......His "Short Canoe Stern" I would term a Cruiser Stern, which is that of the Willard powerboats.
42573

The spectacular 62' N-Class Nick Potter design, Serenade, (1938).
42574

Another Albert Strange design with canoe stern, Charm.
42575

[dreamer]

I guess in my mind, I picture a canoe stern as having tumblhome from about sta 6 or 7 back and around. Like the 'canoe' we mostly think of.

But, this whole thread has shed light on the nuances of 'canoe' versus 'double-ender'. While there may be cases where it is not clear when something is either/or, it is probably easy to figure when it's NOT one or the other. As impressive as Serenade is, I would not consider that a canoe stern and I would guess that in the popular vernacular, most others would not consider that a canoe stern.

[ancient kayaker]

Maybe in these days of high fuel prices and the coming years - perhaps not too far off - we may see a resurgence of efficient power watercraft including double-enders, for recreational purposes, but I doubt it. If the masses can't afford to run their honking great highspeed boats they will either go smaller or go away.

The term "canoe stern" is confusing as the canoe design we tend to think of as "classic" is merely one of many aboriginal types, the stern pattern varying wildly from coast to coast with purpose, conditions and available materials. Ignoring modern canoe stern variations, aboriginal builders were incredibly innovative and used many stern types.

The Algonquin used tumblehome in their birchbark canoes leading to moderate reverse rake.
The Mi’kmaq built birchbark canoes with rounded ends.
Typically NW American seagoing birchbark canoes had tapering stems like modern sea kayaks, no surprise there.
Dugouts of the same region often had small transoms or wildly raised sterns clearly intended to fend off - or surf down - a following sea.
A racing canoe was an entirely different design, extremely long 50+ ft with longest practical waterline as you might expect.
The Kutenai built a bark canoe with stems like extreme wave-piercing designs - I have never been able to figure out the reason.

- and the Innu famed for their skin kayaks also built “crooked canoes” of birchbark with so much rocker that the stern remains a foot or so above the surface rendering discussion of stern design moot.

Virtually all of the sterns in Ted Brewer’s figure can be found and a few more besides. I haven’t seen any flat planing sterns or tunnel sterns on an aboriginal canoe though, but they tried everything else.

[duluthboats]

I know it doesn’t matter at this late point in the thread, but when I started it I was thinking of boats very much like the Timbercoast 22. Whatever you want to call it, it is my idea of the boat for me.
Gary :D
Unless I win the powerball then I'll looking up Steve. :eek: