max beam

[gonzo]

Let's remember that the maximum legal width on the road is 8'6". I have seen irate boatowners stopped on the highway for towing overwidth boats. The salesman told them the boat was "trailarable". So are bridge sections, however they are required to have a permit, an escort and drive during daylight hours. Some cities also have restrictions during traffic hour.

[Willallison]

Not even that I'm afraid.
As O-1 was conceived as a 'world boat', some of us (like here in Oz for example) have to suffer with max of 2.5m - 8'2"....

[Willallison]

ps - nice to see some o-1 input again....maybe it'll spur some others on...

[yipster]

It’s nice to launch, haul and drive a boat over the road anywhere you like yourself,
I have had some trailers and thoughts on the max size trailer behind a car…

*Legally it’s not only the size of the boat: here, and I assume in more countries, 2 to 3 ton (have to check again) trailers are only legal behind monster trucks like hummers and even than its possible you need to store water, fuel, canned food etc in the car.
*For storage of any trailer you do need a big(ger) garage.
*Heavier boats need bigger trailers and even big trailers I’ve seen bending.
*Professional transport is not all that expensive, can go extra wide and there is much to be said in favor of having a bigger boat launched a by crane anyway.
*Beam size in the 8 to 10 ft range makes a big interior space difference in this type of boat.

I found trailers much more useful for somewhat smaller boats.
Sorry my contribution isnt more possitive and thats why i liked your bigger design all along.
Off course that’s my personal opinion; like to hear (pro and con) other considerations…

yipster

[Willallison]

Of course we would (almost) always choose bigger, more comfortable, more expensive, etc etc.
But at the end of the day, not all of us can afford a 50 x 15 footer. The group chose to make O-1:

1 Coastal hopping. 1 week duration without re-supply
2 Trailerable
3 Range 300 miles
4 Crew, 2 minimum
5 Price range, under 50K US, for home built.
6 Must be able to carry on a normal conversation at 3/4 throttle.
7 Outboard power
8 Locate head up (on same level as saloon as opposed to down with berths)
9 Light weight - about 1500 - 1800kg

There is little to choose from if you're shopping for this kind of boat and for many it is a far more practical option than anything bigger. The larger the boat becomes, the more complicated moving it about becomes. It's ok to have a crane drop your boat in the drink if you only ever cruise from the same place, but certainly not a practical option for those who regularly use their boats in different places.
I think the balance we've struck with O-1 is about right. What we need now is some more input to take the design to the next stage.....

[yipster]

that sums it up quit nice and i quikly try'd to check weight against bayliner's ciera 2655 (starts at 42K)
yes bayliner, this one is supposed to be strong according to boating magazine march 2000- LOA 26.7 beam 9.5, but it does not mention weight and this one is just a ft to wide to trailer.
i'll also try to find back trailer weight versus towing vehicle info.
building your own boat does gives great satisfaction and with that lightweight O1 might just have it all rite...

[Willallison]

Well, Yipster, I can tell you that the combined weight of my 27ft Searay (similar to the Bayliner you mention - though dare I say it, somewhat better built...;) ) is 4100kg. Rather more than your average family sedan can haul. I just towed this rig (with a 6.5litre turbo diesel Chevy Suburban) 3500kms from one end of Australia to the other. I can assure you that whilst I would regard my boat as transportable, it certainly ain't what I'd call a trailerboat!

[dskira]

Well, Yipster, I can tell you that the combined weight of my 27ft Searay (similar to the Bayliner you mention - though dare I say it, somewhat better built...;) ) is 4100kg. Rather more than your average family sedan can haul. I just towed this rig (with a 6.5litre turbo diesel Chevy Suburban) 3500kms from one end of Australia to the other. I can assure you that whilst I would regard my boat as transportable, it certainly ain't what I'd call a trailerboat!

Both you and Yipster has a good point.
What is interresting is the difference between "transportable" and "trailerboat"
I will say between 2.5 to 3 long tons will be the max possible. A 5 liters V8 two tons car can haul it. Unfortunatly a very good trailer cost around $7000, and that is expensive. Plus it is better to change the chocks on the car if hauling on long distances and often. And more that 8'6" is an absolut no no in the majority of the States in the US. Some States are 8'. Length can be around 30' to 35' to be on the safe side. The total length (car and boat) should not exeed 60' again in the majority of the States.
My two cents
Cheers
Daniel

[u4ea32]

I tow my 32' x 8'3", 11000 lbs on trailer with my F350 dually V10 truck. Its really not hard to do, and on long runs even with high mountains I get just over 10 miles per gallon on the highway if I keep the top speed at 55 mph (wind drag causes mileage to drop rapidly with highway speed).

However, for the next (and what I expect will be my final) boat, its got to be MUCH lighter. Light enough to tow with a small diesel vehicle like a VW Tiguan. That probably means 5000 lbs MAX on trailer.

And I agree with Will that a 2.5m (8'3") beam is better: its the beam that makes towing difficult. There are many launch ramps where non-boating facility designers leave me with scant inches on either side getting through gates.

However, as I've said many times before, length really isn't a problem. My boat is 32 feet long, but its 40 feet from my trailer hitch to the end of the outdrives due to the long tongue. Road regulations tend to be oddly written -- they aren't written by god, they are written by a series legislators over many years (who really could care less about getting things right or consistent in most cases). So in the US, where one can easily find listings of length-width-height restrictions, if you look into the reality, its far less clear.

Specifically, its legal to tow 53 foot containers nearly anywhere in the developed world. So in practice, you can safely and legally tow nearly anywhere as long as you are smaller than those biggest semi+53' trailer combos: 2.5 meters wide, 53' long, 14' high, with a very, very large tow vehicle often exceeding 24 feet in length (the big sleeper cab long nose models). Oh, and stuff tacked on is not measured: mirrors, lights, steps, awnings, ... In the US, this legality is federally mandated: no state can restrict the movement of such loads.

I'm probably going to stick with the following constraints:

53' trailer hitch ball to aft end of the boat.
Bow overhanging back of tow vehicle OK.
8.25' beam.
13' high on trailer (to miss the trees that are clipped by the 14 foot high trucks).
5000 lbs with fuel, water, food and gear for a week, on trailer.
3500 lbs lightship on trailer.

[dskira]

I tow my 32' x 8'3", 11000 lbs on trailer with my F350 dually V10 truck. Its really not hard to do, and on long runs even with high mountains I get just over 10 miles per gallon on the highway if I keep the top speed at 55 mph (wind drag causes mileage to drop rapidly with highway speed).

However, for the next (and what I expect will be my final) boat, its got to be MUCH lighter. Light enough to tow with a small diesel vehicle like a VW Tiguan. That probably means 5000 lbs MAX on trailer.

And I agree with Will that a 2.5m (8'3") beam is better: its the beam that makes towing difficult. There are many launch ramps where non-boating facility designers leave me with scant inches on either side getting through gates.

However, as I've said many times before, length really isn't a problem. My boat is 32 feet long, but its 40 feet from my trailer hitch to the end of the outdrives due to the long tongue. Road regulations tend to be oddly written -- they aren't written by god, they are written by a series legislators over many years (who really could care less about getting things right or consistent in most cases). So in the US, where one can easily find listings of length-width-height restrictions, if you look into the reality, its far less clear.

Specifically, its legal to tow 53 foot containers nearly anywhere in the developed world. So in practice, you can safely and legally tow nearly anywhere as long as you are smaller than those biggest semi+53' trailer combos: 2.5 meters wide, 53' long, 14' high, with a very, very large tow vehicle often exceeding 24 feet in length (the big sleeper cab long nose models). Oh, and stuff tacked on is not measured: mirrors, lights, steps, awnings, ... In the US, this legality is federally mandated: no state can restrict the movement of such loads.

I'm probably going to stick with the following constraints:

53' trailer hitch ball to aft end of the boat.
Bow overhanging back of tow vehicle OK.
8.25' beam.
13' high on trailer (to miss the trees that are clipped by the 14 foot high trucks).
5000 lbs with fuel, water, food and gear for a week, on trailer.
3500 lbs lightship on trailer.

Very instructive, thank you much.
Cheers
Daniel

[Fanie]

Hi Gonzo, guys,

A 2m500 boat trailers a bit difficult in heavy trafic, especially if you try and miss the potholes. We usually depart when trafic is lowest and you can drive more relaxed - middel of the night.

Normally (I think) one would not tow the boat from one coast over the continent to the other coast like Will does :D Depends how far you have to go to launch the boat and how long you plan to stay each trip.

The old saying a boat is always too big on land and too small on the water. If you're going to spend more time on the hard then a smaller boat will suffice. If you plan to stay out there for a bit then the biggest boat would probably be better.

The only way to get a big(ger) boat on the water while trailable would be to make it foldable. Mine is 10m LOA and 6m BOA. The more I work with this the more I like it. At least is a way to get a bit of the compromised boat back being trailable.

Our length restriction is 22m including the towing vehicle, height restriction is 4m200 and of course as mentioned 2m500 width. So it's quite a monstrosty you can take on the road. I assume other countries would be similar.

[tom28571]

So O1 is getting some more action, or at least talking about action. We ran into the same issue that all such endeavors run into. We each had somewhat different specific wants in such a boat beyond the broad attributes that we could "mostly" agree on.

I know some have gone ahead with our own interpretations. Will has his either in the water or near launch. My latest is below.

It is 28'LOA and 8' 6" BOA. Dry weight w/o engine is 2500lb. Max design displacement is 4000lb. Power is 90hp Etec and top speed is 26mph (hopefully conservative)

Like all such boat of this size, it is best for two people but will be reasonably comfortable for an extra two kids or occasional guests. It will launch in the Spring.

[tom28571]

Oh yes, trailering limits are a hodgepodge. Here is NC, the 8'6" limits was recently rescinded and is now up to 10' with some restrictions. It is mostly ignored anyway and I know of no one who went beyond the past limit that was ticketed although it must have happened.

[Fanie]

Neat boat Tom, how about pics of the inside and why what is where. Always nice to see and learnfull.

[tom28571]

Fanie,

Interior of this boat is not yet finished. The owner is working on it now and I only have a few photos but they don't offer a full view. He is doing a great job and it will be a nice and very workable interior. There are some photos on my website of my Bluejacket 24 which has a similar if smaller interior. Main difference is that the larger boat has a dinette table that converts into a full length berth.

http://www.bluejacketboats.com/bluejacket_24.htm Use Internet Explorer.

[Fanie]

Main difference is that the larger boat has a dinette table that converts into a full length berth.
Who wants to eat in bed anyway :D

(Who-ever is hungry :D)



Why doesn't he put up some pics then ? It really would be very nice to see how it progresses. There is much to learn from the interior's build, one normally just see the hulls (as if that's the whole boat).

[tom28571]

Why doesn't he put up some pics then ? It really would be very nice to see how it progresses. There is much to learn from the interior's build, one normally just see the hulls (as if that's the whole boat).

OK Fanie, I dug around and found a few shots sent to me by the owner this year at various stages. The first is a shot of the aft chines that I use to get the boat onto plane at low speed and for a smother ride in chop. The others are the steering station, forward cabin, dinette seat and crew seat pedestal and the head.

[Willallison]

Oh yes, trailering limits are a hodgepodge. Here is NC, the 8'6" limits was recently rescinded and is now up to 10' with some restrictions. It is mostly ignored anyway and I know of no one who went beyond the past limit that was ticketed although it must have happened.

The one crowd who do take notice of the various regulations are the insurance companies. Run oversize, or overweight, and you will likely find yourself seriously out of pocket if you need to make a claim....

[dskira]

The one crowd who do take notice of the various regulations are the insurance companies. Run oversize, or overweight, and you will likely find yourself seriously out of pocket if you need to make a claim....

I didn't thought of that. Good point. I will remembered.
Thanks
Daniel

[marshmat]

The insurance companies will have your head served on a plate if you need to make a claim and it turns out your rig was illegal. I wouldn't even think about chancing it.

The same goes for trailer weight- in Ontario at least, any trailer over 4.6 tonnes requires a Class A trucker's licence. A lot of folks pull five-tonne RVs with only a Class G, ie. the standard car driver's licence- the cops don't much care, but the insurers will kill you if they find out.

I might add that an additional advantage of keeping beam at 8', besides not running into width issues as you move between jurisdictions, is that it allows you to make full-width bulkheads out of standard plywood sheets, no splicing.

[kim s]

Here in UK I bought a boat that was 9'4" wide. I walked into the local police station and they basically did not have a clue. They phoned the head of the local traffic police to ask.
I have not converted to metricsohere you are
I was told

Behind a CAR----trailor max wheel base 7'6" width--- with 1ft overhang either side MAX.
I had to remove all the stanchions as this made the boat 9'8"

got stopped by the local police and they where right snotty. I was told I should have an escort vehicle. and I was almost definatly over weight.
I got the tape measure out to prove the size and it took them 20mins to contact the traffic police to check. Once I proved I was right, I was asked to take the lot to the public weigh station.
Once it was confirmed I was NOT over weight by 230Kilo (short but fat light weight racing boat) They then went through the car with a fine tooth comb and where quite upset that all they could give me was a 7 day wonder for producing the insurance/mot/liscence etc (we dont need to have them in the car at all times).
The boat I bought was available in UK with a tilting trailor to conform to the euro roads.

Kim

[Fanie]

Write a letter to the trafic dept head and explain to them it is not nice to be harrassed when you try to do everything within the law. It is unreasonable behaviour.

[kim s]

Fanie,

Its not so much as being hassled, Its more worriing that they dont know the laws?? mind you I suppose 2 guys cant know everything and all the laws. The rest was just cos they dont like smart asses who know a bit of law better than they do.

Kim

[marshmat]

I had a fun time a few years ago with a cargo trailer.... 8'6" wide, completely within all limits for that class of trailer.

But nobody had told the road work crew on King Street that 8'6" is a legal width. I managed to simultaneously whack the pylons on both sides of the lane for about a 50-metre stretch. Needless to say, the following day, the temporary lane was set to the proper width ;)

[SeaJay]

I did a bit of research a couple of years ago for my project and can report my parameters and findings.

1. I'm in Sacramento, CA and wanted access to all West Coast cruising grounds, including Lake Tahoe. I wanted the maximum siz boat that could be "conveniently" trailered. I started with a LOA of approximately 40'.

2. With the exception of Lake Tahoe, I could access virtually all areas via the Interstate highways which are much more accomodating to over-width loads.

3. I would likely move the boat once or twice a year (Puget Sound in summer, San Diego in winter), so weekend trailering was not a requiremnt.

4. With my limited trailering requirements, it was very questionable if I could economically justify the ownership cost of a tow vehicle and trailer. (This was a big disapointment to me as I was all excited about having a good story to tell my wife why I just had to have a new beefy diesel PU.) I think you have to take a very critical look at the cost associated with a trailer and tow vehicle. For me, and I believe a lot of other people, it is not only the direct costs of the tow package, but you also have to consider storage costs. All of a sudden I was going to be facing both dock fees and trailer storage fees. It started making a lot of sense to just hire a trucker to move the boat when required.

4. I started with an 8'-6" beam as no permits seemed to be required on the roads I wanted to travel. (Each state PUC website will post oversize load requirements)

5. The design spiral soon indicated that a 10' beam (as noted earlier in this thread) offered a more realistic interior layout as well as side decks. 10' feet seemed like a reasonable compromise as although over-width permits were required there were no pilot car requirements and minimal restrictions over smaller highways.

6. It was a short jump from 10' to 12' in that while I would be more restricted on smaller highways, no pilot cars would be required on the Interstates and the access roads to the ports I was considering.

I now have to recues myself from this thread as I ended up buying a hull with a 14' beam and shipped it down from Canada. The shipping / permits weren't really a problem, but the pilot house I'm building will be much more of an issue as it will likely push me beyond a 13'6" overall height. From what I determined, overheight is much more of a problem. I haven't ruled out the possibility of highway transport, but it will be a big infrequent project and in no way could be considered "trailering".

Best Regards,

SeaJay

[FAST FRED]

IN the USA at this time large tractors are almost a giveaway.

Pre EGR (before 2003) is most reliable

A unit that has a sleeping area , small stove ect can be registered as an RV.

Since its cheap only RV liability , $100 or so from Progressive .

Now you can tow almost anything , max LOA 65 ft (front of tractor to end of boat).

NO CDL (its an RV ) no problem with going up or down hills!

8,6 wide is a restriction I would observe (no overwide permit) but a 45 ft boat would be pretty easy to have a fine interior in

The Brit canal boats seem fine to me.

FF

[u4ea32]

I continue tweaking the design to decrease beam, and now I'm down to 7 feet.

[Easy Rider]

David,
Just got to say this. As I recall your boat is 32' and no hassle trailer/load widths of well over 8' is fine in your area .. why in god's green earth would you want to reduce your beam down to 7 feet??? That's a L/B ratio of less than the Atkins rule of thumb (4-1) .. and they are from the old school gravitating to quite narrow boats.

Easy

[u4ea32]

The biggest reason for narrow beam is for a smooth ride. Second biggest reason is for efficiency. Third is to eliminate the resistance hump above hulls peed. And finally, the narrower, the lighter for a given hull depth.

Smooth ride: Note that peak vertical accelerations are what cause people to want to slow down. And vertical accelerations are correlated with the cube of the beam. So a small decrease in beam is a large decrease in peak vertical accelerations.

Efficiency: In glass smooth water, a wide beam is good for planing hulls (effectively increasing the aspect ratio (beam/length) to increase lift over drag). In all other conditions -- displacement, semi planing, and planing in anything but glassy conditions -- narrow is more efficient. And the aspect ratio can be improved even on very narrow planing hulls by steps or "shingles" if one goes far enough back in history for one's terminology.

Narrow hulls have so much less resistance at speeds below full on planing that the hump resistance is negligible. At about 7 to one (like on high speed naval monohull vessels) and higher length/beam ratios, the hump is gone, the resistance is almost linear up until planing begins, at which point the resistance curve gets flat (horizontal). So one is much less constrained to speeds at some "sweet spot" and able to simply go whatever speed makes sense for conditions, tidal gates, noise, whatever.

And regarding displacement, consider this: Savitsky tests found a D/L of 20 is optimal for transport efficiency. But even lighter is still even less energy. So ultimately, its all about minimum displacement.

I don't know where Atkins gets his rule of thumb, but it sure is not based on any performance models I have ever found, nor on results of competition.

[Fanie]

Cheeesss David, I would want my hulls as wide as possible, it adds stability. The smoothness can have a lot to do with shape. Wider boats tend to have better draft, which offers less weight vs depth, and relative less displacement per area.

Your vertical accellerations is relative to what you've got there, but trust me, a boat has to go vertical or you're in for a surprise in the next swells :D

Width also means space and space ia usually directly proportional to comfort. Sits pretty high in my book.

[Wavewacker]

Nice boat Tom, at cruise, what's the fueld consumption in the calm? Looks like a Looper!

[Submarine Tom]

I'm 10' 3" and 2 feet overheight (14') and I can tell you it's a pain in the ass to move even though it's only 10 000 pounds.

-Tom