The Elipse - A Proposal

[venomousbird]

Preamble (an appeal to those with open minds):

I require a good boat for purposes of liberation. I am not a prisoner in the ordinary sense, I am free to roam about as I please, I live in Canada, a wealthy, apparently free nation.

However, I feel that I am a prisoner of mediocrity. Some might call it a flaw, but I have an unpacifiable inner urge to go beyond and be more than I am currently. I do not see this characteristic as being manifest in most of my countrymates, and perhaps in most people globally, who are content to abide by the status quo, living from paycheque to paycheque, and indulging heavily in abuse of alcohol and other worldly aversions. I have patience, but only so long as I feel that I am working towards my goal, which is to eventually (and hopefully soon) have a craft of some kind that will be explained as follows, that will enable me to travel afar over water and land, and bring me to a place of fertile ground on which to drop and cultivate my seeds and thrive.

The Current Idea:

This is a design I have been turning over in my head over the years, and I am now sufficiently motivated (alarmed?) to make an attempt to bring this concept to fruition, hopefully with your help.

I want a boat that can potentially be completely sealed up in order to weather the worst storms the ocean can throw at me. Some boats accomplish this with sheer bulk, but my hope is to rather use innovative design to overcome this obstacle. The name Elipse is derived from my inspiration as to the shape of such a vessel. I am thinking something along the lines of a torpedo shape, somewhat similar to a kayak, approximately twenty feet in length, and six feet at the beam. I want the boat to be fully enclosed.

Envision if you will, a watercraft similar in some respects to a jet fighter. I want to cover the exterior in solar panels, and have a small trolling motor attached. I would also like to have footpedals in the cockpit for auxilary power. It should not require much thrust to push a boat with such an aerodynamic design, and as such, rigidity, strength, and a light overall weight will be considered paramount in my design. Comfort is of little importance. After all, the Viking longboat was perhaps the most advanced ship design of its day and it didn't even have any sort of enclosed shelter. If I have room to lay down in it and stay dry, I will be more than content. The design must be self-righting. I essentially want to have an aerodynamic cork that can take a severe thrashing on high seas without falling apart. I think that carbon fiber would be the ideal hull material for a boat such as this, as it is light enough to be pushed without much power, but strong enough to take a beating.

I need help regarding overall design and frame materials. Thanks!

[venomousbird]

http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v81/169/37/502786037/n502786037_79236_3397.jpg

Is this possible?

The 'wing' is to be on both sides, to be used for aerodynamic stability and power in times of high winds, surface covered in solar panels to be lowered in times of low wind and sun for additional power output.

[venomousbird]

Could a wing be raised and lowered, to be dipped into the water to prevent rolling? Has this ever been tried?

[venomousbird]

many of you have probably seen the flashlights that can be powered by shaking? a magnet slides back and forth inside of a tube that is wrapped in magnet wire, and the motion of the magnet produces an electrical charge

banks of light, thin plastic tubes, with an interior coated in teflon, wrapped in thin copper magnet wire could have a cylindrical neodymium magnet inside that would move back and forth through the tube in the rocking action of waves

this would produce an electrical current that could be used to help power a boat, and would make use of the movement that is normally wasted

[kengrome]

I want a boat that can potentially be completely sealed up in order to weather the worst storms the ocean can throw at me.If the storm beats or fatigues you to death all you'll end up with is a floating coffin. Is that what you want, a one-of-a-kind floating coffin?

I am thinking something along the lines of a torpedo shape, somewhat similar to a kayak, approximately twenty feet in length, and six feet at the beam.Where did you get these numbers?

Envision if you will, a watercraft similar in some respects to a jet fighter.I thought you wanted a boat, now you're talking about making it look like an airplane. What's the point?

Sorry but it seems like you're pretty unfocused or confused between what you want and what is practical. Maybe you should post your priority list of features and a clear description of the functions and your intended use for this boat, so people will understand what you're trying to accomplish ...

[venomousbird]

an interior of foam padding would prevent being beaten to death, along with a good 5 point seatbelt for the worst rides

the numbers are meant only as rough figures to explain that I want something larger than a kayak, but smaller than a traditional cruising vessel

I don't know much about proper proportions yet, it's something I need to research. . . I just started working on 3D renderings yesterday and I'm making some good progress, as well as researching new fabrications methods that haven't been implemented on a wide scale at all as of yet

the point of making it like an airplane is that it would be self-contained

what I'm really trying to accomplish is to make a pod that can go anywhere in the world and carry a passenger through, alive, despite almost anything that is thrown at it, and run on improvised power from a broad range of sources

basically the nautical equivelant of a bunker

[venomousbird]

btw, the boat on your homepage is beautiful

[kengrome]

an interior of foam padding would prevent being beaten to death, along with a good 5 point seatbelt for the worst rides

the numbers are meant only as rough figures to explain that I want something larger than a kayak, but smaller than a traditional cruising vessel

I don't know much about proper proportions yet, it's something I need to research. . . I just started working on 3D renderings yesterday and I'm making some good progress, as well as researching new fabrications methods that haven't been implemented on a wide scale at all as of yet

the point of making it like an airplane is that it would be self-contained

what I'm really trying to accomplish is to make a pod that can go anywhere in the world and carry a passenger through, alive, despite almost anything that is thrown at it, and run on improvised power from a broad range of sources

basically the nautical equivelant of a bunker

I guess I have to ask specific questions:

where will it be used
how will it get there
how long will you spend in the boat each time you use it
how far (in miles) you plan to go in the boat on non-human power
will it be trailered
will it have any electronics in it, and if so what
what is your design displacement
how is the wing going to provide power

[Guest625101138]

I agree that there are many areas to explore with the development of boating. I have some reservations about the practicality of what you propose.

I get the impression that you have not spent a lot of time at sea. Please advise if this is not the case. So to help you better understand the challenges of making the escape to life at sea, I suggest you spend a week or so in a small boat in rough weather.

After you have that experience, set about making a specification for a boat:- Where you want to travel, how fast you want to travel, what luxuries you want, what is the target displacement, what is the budget etc. I find it difficult to come up with a design that can provide extended safe ocean cruising and displaces less than 1 tonne.

You will not get much out of this size boat with human power. Even with solar power it will be a slug - remember there is no sun at night. Wind and solar might be more practical. Using construction such as modern composites I expect you would need a budget of at least USD50k if you have the requisite skills to design and build it.

Rick W,

[venomousbird]

I certainly agree that a boat like this would cost a great deal, would definately require a great deal of electronic equipment, and would not be easy to build. I see it as a definate challenge and one that if successful would definately be worthwhile. Here is a rendering of an 'artists conception' I made tonight. It isn't fully to scale, but it's a rough idea of what I've been thinking of. My 3D skills are improving pretty rapidly!

BTW, I grew up on a small island in Lake Erie, so I know what happens to shallow water when a major storm hits. I've always lived near a major body of water, be it the great lakes or the ocean, so it feels natural for me to want to explore the world by sea. I agree about the pedal power, I've scaled up the design somewhat. I'm thinking more so now that I would try power generation from solar, wind, the rocking motion of the boat, and a small diesel/biodiesel generator hybrid system. My idea would not to go fast unless it was suddenly necessary but rather to travel consistantly.

Sails and wings actually operate on the same principle of pressure differences. When a wing is turned into the wind at an appropriate angle, wind will flow more rapidly over one side, which is straight, and more slowly over another side, which is curved. This difference in pressure is what keeps planes in the air, and would also work to move a boat through the water.

http://photos-037.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v81/169/37/502786037/n502786037_79883_8103.jpg

http://photos-037.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v81/169/37/502786037/n502786037_79882_5490.jpg

[PI Design]

Where's the picture? From your description, I'm imaging a cross between a submarine and a pedaloe!

[venomousbird]

sorry, I guess the images I tried to link from that I posted before weren't working. . . most webhosts don't want people linking to their photos on other sites, I hope this will work:

http://wildedibleplants.angelfire.com/

The images are all up on the main page, I haven't put anything about wild plants yet. I suspect if I actually build this thing, and I want to, the number of nessie sightings are going to increase dramatically. . .

[longliner45]

venomousbird look in your backyard ,,you will find some really great sailboat designs in your area,,I read your thread ,,you are a sailor at heart,,,,we all always dream,,its the ones who make it happen that are different,,,it is always good to dream,longliner

[venomousbird]

I thought I should mention, even if the pedal power would not amount to anything very significant, a few hundred watts at most, I was thinking of its benefits as a means of exercise while at sea, and as such, it makes sense to at least derive a little bit of power from it.

It wouldn't be all that much compared to the yield from a good sail, but it would be something. I like the idea of solar panels and pedal power to push me out of the doldrums if I'm ever out of fuel and get stuck. Even if I can only push at an average speed of a few knots on that auxilary power, that's enough to get out of a slack area much faster than just sitting there.

I suspect that in good sunny conditions though, a good solar array on the topside of a boat would be able to push you along pretty fast. I looked at a thread that showed a catamaran that crossed the atlantic with solar power, and could keep roughly the speed of a traditional sailing vessel, of course the design was a little bit scary. . . I wouldn't venture onto the open seas in something like this:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/images/07_02_14_sun21_martinique.jpg

I think hybrid power systems are the best way to go, but most current designs are focussed to lean most heavily on only one, like a traditional sailboat, powercruiser, etc. That is the primary motivation for my design efforts. I think the ideal boat is one that is strong enough to withstand storms, but also able to make use of a variety of power sources to keep moving regardless of what conditions manifest. Also, on a boat with multiple renewable power sources, you have the advantage of an immediate power source when you get somewhere that you would like to stay for a while. For example, solar panels that could power an electric chainsaw for building a cabin or something.

[charmc]

OK, so you're a dreamer with little knowledge of boat design. No crime in that, and this is a good place to begin to learn. There are well established techniques for building exceptionally strong hulls with lightweight materials like carbon fiber; search the forum and you'll find good discussions as well as links to other sites. Ken's list of questions is a good way to break down your dream into specifics; once you have those, you can begin to prioritize them. Knowing specifically what you want is essential to achieving it.

Rick's suggestion about spending a week or so far out at sea in a small boat in rough weather is excellent. Watching storms, even being in them in coastal waters is one thing; experiencing a storm far from land, with huge waves every few seconds, continuing for days without end, is another thing altogether. The experience will help you decide if a bare bones capsule is really what you want.

If you plan to be mostly in tropic waters, sail and solar propulsion makes sense. Rowing or pedaling can always be a good backup, as well as a way to stay fit. Your thoughts about wings instead of sails are sound; there are some good articles about rigid sail (rigid sail = wing) propulsion. Most of the development work has had speed as the goal, but efficiency at lower speeds should be possible.

It might be a good idea to study sailboat design thoroughly. Even though you want to be innovative, knowing the fundamentals of current design is important, if only from the point of view of safety.

Working toward a dream is as good as it gets.

[charmc]

Yipster, a regular on this forum, has a study for a sailboat that includes links to other sites with more information on wing sails. You can read his study here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14475&d=1182962063

[venomousbird]

interesting link, it looks like I'm not the only one who has this kind of an idea for a boat

[mydauphin]

There is nothing wrong in dreaming. My favorite saying is

"Years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things that you did do. So throw off the bow lines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - - Mark Twain.

HOWEVER,

Remember that every time you get in a boat and leave the dock you are risking your life and everyone on your boat.

1. Boats can sink - Most boats sink from simple things, i.e. lose hose
2. Boats can hit or get hit by another boat, reef, rock...
3. Wave or wake can flip you around, throw you upside down and perhaps even send you underwater.
4. A boat traveling thru water at 10 mph is like a car at 150 mph because water is much denser. And water doesn't compress like air does.
5. Your low fighter wings are history from first wave.
6. It gets really cold and really hot on a boat.
7. You cant drink or breath saltwater
8. A storm can shake you to death.
9. Everything on a boat is either broken or going to break
10. BOATING is FUN

GET a boat designed for the sea that you are going to travel. The one you design is good in a virtual world. Boats are designed like boat for a reason.

Set a budget first, Set a goal... then lets talk real world.

[boatsource]

The idea of the vessel and initial torpedo shaped vessel reminded me of another person who likes to spend time at sea:

http://www.oceanrowing.com/Andrew/andrews_progress.htm

He was in a 27' rowboat for 267 days trying to make it across the Pacific. They also make note of a rower who had been at sea for 304 days in a small boat.

Although there has been notes of the practicality and potential durability of it, I don't get the impression that this is a project for a production model made of balsa cored fiberglass or the like.

I think it sounds like an interesting project and look forward to seeing some of the creativity and problem solving flow from those involved.

Good luck with your dream venomousbird.

[yacht371]

I hate to be a cynic--no wait I take that back--I like to be one!

The most imaginative designs are invariably from those of little experience. The more experience one has, the more you tend to realize that boat design has evolved the way it has because what didn't work was eliminated. Darwinian theory works at sea as well.

If you can come up with a design that bears no resemblance to anything out there, chances are it won't work.

Now, to the design at hand:
A fully enclosed boat, as watertight as a submarine may be safe, as long as you don't have to breathe, cook, or go to the toilet. In real life we need to do all of those things. The smallest boat I'd consider ocean worthy is a Bruce Bingham Flicka 20. This is a small heavy, expensive boat but has all the elements of a good offshore cruiser.

Windsurfers have proven the effectiveness of a wing sail, canted to windward, so it generates some lift as well as forward drive. Your wings would generate some lift, I can't see how they would develop forward drive, at least upwind.

Airplanes sitting on a runway in a headwind don't move into the wind. If the wind is strong enough they might leave the ground, but will blow backwards.

Rowing is hard work. Yes, people have rowed across oceans, but even the slowest sailboat (see Flicka) is WAY faster.

Assuming the wing sail worked when horizontal, how would you reef them when the wind is too strong?

My boat has 2 x 75 watt solar panels which generate enough power in sunny weather to keep the beer cool. They cost about $1500. Three sets plus some AGM batteries (so you can run at night) and a trolling motor should be enough to push a 20' boat at about 2-3 knots, when the sun shines. The same money spent on mast and sails woul probably drive you faster, but still, if you can afford it a case can be made for a pure solar powered boat.

But what happens in a storm? Just when you need extra power to keep the bow into the wind, the sun is hidden by black clouds, and the battery is dying...

Diesel fuel is a way more efficient energy storage medium than batteries...the wind tends to blow in the open ocean.

How much money do you have to spend on it?

0-$10000 Forget about an ocean crossing boat.

10,000 to 20,000 Some amazing voyages have been made in West Wight Potter 19s.

20,000 to 30,000 Contessa 26 will take you around the world in safety and surprising speed.

30,000 to 200,000 A wide variety of excellent good used and new production cruisers which will do the job are available.

Got even more money? Hire a naval architect to design and engineer your dream boat.

[Guillermo]

...I feel that I am a prisoner of mediocrity. Some might call it a flaw, but I have an unpacifiable inner urge to go beyond and be more than I am currently....
Are you a prisoner of mediocrity? Do you want to go beyond what you are? May I suggest you to become the responsible and loving father of six children? I grant you mediocrity will be a very, very small concern in your live! This is a granted (and quite expensive) way to solve your dilemma. :D :D

Search these forums for human powered boats, solar and waves propulsion, etc. You´ll find a wealth of information. Good luck with your project!

Cheers.

[bart streb]

From a non-designers view, but more of a survivalists, how long could you expect to stay in a huge squall at sea when you really couldn't outrun it, or avoid it with the boats lack of speed? You would basically be consumed by it, and have to ride it out. Then think of the duration of such squalls if you are riding with it. Days maybe? A week? I think it would become a coffin, no human can endure that kind of exposure, laying down, being tossed about. It would be better to design a submarine that could dive below the fray!!
Keep dreaming, when we stop dreaming, we stop living!

[westlawn5554X]

Try a submarine yacht...

speed mean power... from wind or engine...
The bigger the powerplant meaning more fuel u need to carry along.

U can have a fat lady look like paris hilton:)

U can instead buy a boat that carry your toys and play around the world. Buy a ex Tug boat , refit and recondition to fit all and carry your toys for the crazy journey.

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/yacht-escort-ships-shadows/4195-review-shadow-marines-paladin.html


Is this mean to be leisure or survival inclined vessel?

Or a world record breakin dart?

[rwatson]

W.T.F.P ?
(The first letter stands for What's - the last for Point)