Traditional boat definition

[Guillermo]

On July 5th to 8th there will be a Traditional Boats Gathering in the port of Ferrol, a north Galician city (http://www.culturamaritima.org/ferrol2007/)
At the same time there will take place a technical conference on this type of boats (days 5 and 6 of July) and I'm invited as a lecturer there.

I'm writing a lecture on the "technical caracterization of traditional boats" and, to my surprise, I have not been able to find, nor in my books, nor in internet, a definition of what a "Traditional Boat" is. It's interesting: It seems everybody has clear in his/her mind what a traditional boat is, but...what's the precise definition? I've been thinking about it and I've come to the conclusion it's not so easy to give a clear and concise answer.

So I request help from these forum's kind members to help me to find out what a definition should be. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance to all contributors.

Cheers.

[waikikin]

Guillermo, maybe to start a tradition some one has to do something the same or similar more than once or in series or have even generational repitition of similar construction hence not retricted to wood/steel/composite specifically anymore as all now have tradition of excellence in generational construction mediums of vessels- very interesting philisophic line of thread & I award points for posing it in a new tradition of lovely reward. Regards from Jeff:)

[MikeJohns]

Ahh Guillermo avoid lectures :)

Can we really help or will we just confuse the issue? Here's a shot.

Perhaps; it is the style, function, construction techniques and adopted solutions that have persevered over time as workable sensible solutions. Often shaped by local culture, and the constraints of the areas of operation and above all the task for which they were built. Characterisations such as Comfort, volume, seaworthiness, draft, shelter, displacement.

Can you have a traditional boat in modern materials? Certainly it could fit the bill for everything bar the hull material.

Cheers

[RANCHI OTTO]

This is only my personal point of view....traditional boat is:

- wood
- submerged propeller(s)
- speed less than 30 knots:confused:

[waikikin]

Mike/ Guillermo, lecture$ are fine $o long a$ the effort i$ appre$$iated. Lechering for love is a different matter. Regards from jeff:) PS: I'm younger than history of most contruction mediums & have in whats left of it grey hair although I can't really picture a bunch of woodboatbuffs appreiciating a lecture on the beauty & aroma of the slush or the upstanding Aussie alu Quinnie tinnie traditions!

[Bergalia]

I would think, Guillermo that 'traditional', as my colleagues have suggested, is defined in the distinctive style - the 'indigenous; style developed by a 'people' over many generations. A style most suited to their uses and prevailing conditions. For example - the Faroese, The dhow, the 'junk', gondola, Norse longboat, etc. Styles which are 'instantly' recognisable and attributable to a specific country.
And good luck with the lecture.:)

[M&M Ovenden]

Wouldn't a traditional boat simply be a boat we can instinctively associate to a historic cultural group.
Hence certain fishing culture, racing culture, exploration culture....
If there is a story to be said about the a group of PEOPLE associated to the boat you most likely have a traditional boat.
Thats for my try,

Murielle

[Guillermo]

Just a quick post at lunch time, to say thanks to all of you. Tonight at home I'll post some of my thoughts on the matter. In the mean time, I'll welcome more contributions.
Cheers :)

[safewalrus]

Guillermo your question appears to have been answered above! My lowly view?

Traditional - something that has withstood the tests of time, weather and bad fortune and still come up on top! It is a system that works - for that location! (maybe not others that have different requirements), is simple to operate and hopefully fix, if it goes wrong, but won't go very wrong very often! and also most importantly "it feels right" to them that use it! There may be little quirks that the stranger does not know, but generally to the user, as I said 'it feels right'.

Well thats my view, please use any or all of it if it helps in any way and good luck with the lecture!

Mike the Walrus

[yipster]

a boat must have been one of the first tools intelectual mankind invented, i think :confused:

[Guillermo]

Here some of my present thoughts:

First on some ethnographic related matters:
- Able to efficiently perform a professional task on the water in a simple and forgiving way.
- Developed and perfectioned over centuries by craftsmen/users.
- Building knowledge transmitted orally and by practice.
- Linked to an historical or ethnic group.
- Defined style depending on group and task.

I'm leaving apart pure recreational boats, as they evolved mostly from working boats, many times with the applying of more scientific knowledge. But I do not want to close doors: We can leave this for a second thought.

Now on some technical considerations:
- Displacement forms, not planning.
- Seaworthy within the scope of the pretended use.
- Providing a comfortable 'stability of platform' (gentle motions).
- Rugged and strong construction, using as few elements as possible.
- Wood as main construction material (used for centuries. Animal skins or bones can also be considered, but are marginal)
- Mechanical unions in structure.
- Simple and effective rigs and maneouvres.
- Synthetic materials for rigs excluded.

Those are some of my thoughts at this time, but they are here to be debated, not pretending to be an statement, of course.

And now some questions about some further technical aspects:

On structure:
- Any limit on size? (are we talking boats, or also ships and vessels?)
- Should we include steel? (I'd say aluminium, GRP, and composites should be excluded)
- If steel is included, riveted or also welded?

On propulsion:
- Propulsion only by oars and or sails, not engines?
- If engines, where the historic limit?
- What the type of engine? steam? internal combustion?
- Type of fuel?
- What the power/kg limit or any other aspect of engines?

There are surely more doubts. More will pop-up for sure.

More tomorrow. Now it's late. Your thoughts, please.
See you tomorrow. Good night (morning, evening, whatever)
Cheers.

[Bergalia]

That'll have 'em rocking in the aisles Guillermo. One small criticism though - couldn't help noticing you've neglected to mention goats.....:D

But as we 'Aussies' say - "Go for it...":)

[Raggi_Thor]

...
- Able to efficiently perform a professional task on the water in a simple and forgiving way.
- Seaworthy within the scope of the pretended use....

I was in the middle of a lengthy answer when my pc crashed.
So here is the short version :)

It's an interesting topic and I think the definition is always changing.

Traditional Norwegian small fishing boats like the different kinds of faerings are not forgiving, and not as seaworthy as larger decked boats. They where cheap and fast to build, easy to row and handle and quite fast to sail.

In the 1850s more than 700 men drowned each year. This number was reduced to 300 in 1875 and later to 200, in a period where the population and fisheries grew. The answer is nontraditional boats :) The ballasted decked boat, later with outside ballast as we know it by Colin Archer in the 1890s was a huge step forward. Colin Archer and his competitors introduced everything we can call modern or nontraditional; drawings, calculations, tables, outside ballast, theory (even if the wave form theory was "wrong" it worked for Archer). Pure traditionalists in Norway seem to think that the art of boatbuilding reached a top in 1890 (with the faerings, built by eye and a few marks on a stick for strategic dimensions), since then all kinds of modernity has reduced the art to engineering, and saved a lot of lives. Others would now, hundred years later, say that a Colin Archer rescue boat or pilot boat is "traditional". I like them, in their way, but not because they are traditional, but on the contrary, because they where revolutionary, and still I think we can and should do better today.

[charmc]

You've had some excellent contributions already, Guillermo, and your own thoughts have started you on the road to a structure for your talk. I can add but a few thoughts:

Webster and the Oxford both include the element of handed down knowledge by word of mouth and example, without written instructions, as being crucial to tradition.

Mike Johns describes, rightly, the roles of culture and geography in shaping traditional boat design and construction for a given task. This is certainly true: traditional fishing boats, for example, vary in appearance from region to region.

Raggi's point is well taken: while traditional boats represent effective solutions to a given "problem" (The problem may be how to build a boat big and seaworthy enough to go offshore and carry back several tons of fish, but small enough to be built by 10 men from the village with hand tools only, using the timber found within a week's walk from the village.), they may or may not represent the best solution. They will be limited by constraints of geography and culture ,,, and by the fact that human nature tends to enshrine tradition with a respect sometimes based more on its age than on its capability. So traditional boat building will reflect a resistance to change, even in the face of superior alternatives, which is why some traditional workboats become tour or recreational boats, having been supplanted in their original roles by more effective competitors.

I would agree that traditional boats will be oar or sail powered. (Although some traditional boats have been modified by adding engines.) I believe that purpose built powerboats are not traditional. They are the product of written engineering and design standards, and the technology is evolving at a relatively rapid pace from steam engines to turbines to gasoline and diesel engines to gas turbines and much more, in a century and a half. Similarly, traditional construction is wood. Iron and steel hull construction techniques are a product of written standards also, and have evolved at a relatively rapid pace.

OK, time to go to bed. Good luck, Guillermo; don't forget to include some of our boat jokes to warm up your audience! :)

[safewalrus]

MMMmmmm! Charlie would you say the 'Cutty Sark' is/was a traditional clipper? if so remember she's composite built (iron frames, wood skin) or the eskimo kiyak - which is also composite (bone frames, walrus skin [ help]) Same system different style? It's a bit like a bit of string isn't it? Trust Guillermo to chuck this one at us!

[Bergalia]

MMMmmmm! Charlie would you say the 'Cutty Sark' is/was a traditional clipper?


No. The Cutty Sark, and her ilk were NOT traditional craft - any more than an oiltanker can be classed as traditional. She was purely a commercial vessel designed and built for speed and trade, and a variation on others of her class, contemporary to her day, much as are the yachts designed for the Americas Cup etc. Or would you consider them to be 'traditional'.

There were no 'generations' behind her pedigree as with other 'localised' commericlal vessels such as fishing and trading vessels evolving over many centuries of 'local' experience.

[SeaSpark]

The problem defining traditional is frequently met by the organisers of classic boat races it would be interresting to look at the rules the various committees formulate. Could not find any rules on the internet but examples are the races in the Mediterranean circuit (where they invented the "in spirit of tradition" class), and the traditional boat races at the Azores islands.

Picture of dutch Skutsje's sailing, the organizers of this race discuss traditional or not year round.

[Guillermo]

I have found this:
The 'Heritage Boat Club' defines a heritage boat as "vessels constructed of wood regardless of age, and/or representative of traditional design." although they later say: "In other words, we're talking about wooden boats, primarily -- although older, traditional boats of some other materials also qualify under this definition of "heritage boats."

[Bergalia]

...The 'Heritage Boat Club' defines a heritage boat as "vessels constructed of wood regardless of age, and/or representative of traditional design.

It's a case of semantics really. Are we discussing 'traditional' boats - or 'heritage' boats. I don't believe they are one and the same. Much as the world of elderly vehicles is distinctly classified as: Veteran (up to 1918); Vintage (between 1918 and 1930); Post Vintage Thoroughbreds (a handful of marques - Rolls, Mercs,Buggatti and such) built despite mass-production; and Classics.

Traditional boats are not necessarily heritage boats. Heritage being something worthy of inheriting. But would you want to inherit a corracle ?

[Guillermo]

..'traditional' boats - or 'heritage' boats. I don't believe they are one and the same....
I agree. They are not the same. I posted just to exemplify the lack of a precise definition reagrding this kind of matters.
To inherit a corracle may not be important to me, but I admit it can be for others. Don't you agree?
Cheers.

[Guillermo]

I've just received this kind message from Matt Murphy, editor of Wooden Boat magazine:

Dear Sr. Gefaell--
I think you are correct when you say it means different things to different people. Tradition evolves; some people consider certain fiberglass boats to be traditional now. In the world of wooden boats, however, we consider a traditional boat to, generally, be one that's built of solid planks on bent or sawn frames. Non-traditional methods would include plywood and cold molding.

Best--
Matt Murphy
Editor

[safewalrus]

Bergalia I'd consider a Folk Boat to be a Traditional boat! you obviously wouldn't! And a T2 (American WWII tanker) there again in the late 1800's was that new fangled boat the Zulu considered traditional? It might be now but then? Seems it's a case of how long is a bit of string!! Probably a good subject to stay away from if you had any sense! Luckily I'm renowned for not having any so I'll keep on arguing! Jusy for the craich!

As for yer coracle - if it had a walrus skin I'd love to inherit it (might have belonged to someone I knew)

[Guillermo]

I attach here a very interesting document.
A representative of the European Maritime Heritage (http://www.european-maritime-heritage.org/), along with many other knowledgeable people (not me) will also give lectures in Ferrol. I'm going to learn a lot!

From: THE BARCELONA CHARTER (http://www.heritageafloat.org.uk/barcelona.htm). EUROPEAN CHARTER FOR THE CONSERVATION AND RESTORATION OF TRADITIONAL SHIPS IN OPERATION

"DEFINITIONS
ARTICLE 1. The concept of maritime heritage afloat embraces the single traditional ship in which is found the evidence of a particular civilisation or significant development as well as traditional sailing, seamanship and maritime workmanship. This applies both to larger ships and to more modest craft of the past, which have acquired cultural significance with the passing of time."

[safewalrus]

Guillermo I'm jealous - enjoy my friend enjoy! Max Like I was saying 'how long is a piece of string?'

[Bergalia]

...Max Like I was saying 'how long is a piece of string?'


Ahhhhhhhhh.....String.....Walrus you know how to arouse a man.......(has quiet orgasm). As you well remember string is 'my bag'. (Does anyone use that expression anymore I wonder.)

You make a good point about the Zulu. Personally I'd discount it as a 'traditional' vessel having evolved from the finer points of two earlier work boats, and as it's name implies only appeared post-Zulu-Wars (late 1800's). However I'm sure it will rank as such among others. I believe there is a restored Zulu in the maritime museum in Fife - but not sure how they classify her. (She arrived after I'd fled the shores).
My concept of a traditional craft is one which instantly identifies the country of origin...again I cite the Faroese. A marque which can't be mistaken for any other. But Walrus old chap - it's a mute point.
And I'll join you in again congratulating Guillermo - and the conference for choosing him as a speaker. (What a great excuse he has for house-hunting).:D

[Guillermo]

And I'll join you in again congratulating Guillermo - and the conference for choosing him as a speaker. (What a great excuse he has for house-hunting).:D
Thanks, Max & Mike for your warm wishes.
I hope not to need a house there, nor an hotel, as I'm sailing to Ferrol with my own private home, the good old MARIE (weather permitting). An old friend of mine and my son Guillermo are accompanying, so I hope to enjoy a wonderful week sailing, watching traditional boats and learning a lot.
By the way: Conference will be held inside the water supply steam vessel HIDRIA II (http://www.hidria.net/), where she used to have the water tanks, now a multi purpose saloon.

More photos from HIDRIA II at: http://www.modelismonaval.com/magazine/hidria/presentacion.html
(Navigate through left menu)

[Pericles]

Guillermo,

Within the first line of Article 1 is a little gem of an idea.

"The concept of maritime heritage afloat embraces the single traditional ship in which is found the evidence of a particular civilisation".

Over the centuries there have been many "civilisations". I would prefer to use the term "Cultures". Egypt, Carthage, Rome and China to mention but a few. Then, there were the Nabateans :D For any group of peoples, their "single traditional ship" was of its time and there are precious few triremes, galleys and Scandinavian longships plying the waves, because change happens and traditions can be lost.

Scotland lost a long and very important tradition of building iron and steel ships, when the shipyards closed. A cultural icon of the Clyde could the the fleet of "Puffers". http://www.tradboat2.co.uk/sourcepages/clydepuffers/clydepuffersource%20page.htm

Puffers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_puffer developed from the Gabbert, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabbert, which could mean that old Gabbert skippers would have bewailed the passing of the old ways with the coming of these new fangled steam boats.

Then again, were I to develop and build many boats eminently suitable for a market place rather than a locality with its local sea conditions. could I be starting a tradition that in years to come, the future owners of those boats will talk in hushed tones, of the building methods http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=147990&highlight=pericles#post147990 that ensured the physical survival of their craft, 150 years in the future. :D :D

We can be fairly certain that there were disputes between builders of dugouts about building method for hollowing out. One guy uses fire, another a stone adze and here comes that bloke with the foreign sounding name, lording it over everyone with his copper axe. "Whose he think he is, building a better boat in half the time without the traditional breaks for placating the gods. Mark my words. It'll all end in tears"

Of course, it never did and two boats for one was the first expression of early Advertising Man.

Traditional boats. All things to all men and all is for the best in this “best of all possible worlds".

Pericles

[safewalrus]

Nuffink wrong with the old log - as long as it's traditional -but does it not loose tradition once you start to hollow it? it does according to Bergalia!

[Pericles]

Ah!,

for a log to be traditional it must be the correct species. We know about balsa rafts, but the first log?:D

Pericles

[Guillermo]

Perry,
I agree Puffers and other vessels like those are called traditional boats nowadays, as a colin archer is called a traditional boat. But are they really? They were developed from pre-existant local boats, which we may say were the real traditional ones (?). Let's take the Puffers: As you say they were derived from the 'Gabberts' or 'Gabarts', sailing barges carrying coal and fish in inland navigations, specially along the river Clyde (Interesting: I can find nothing in internet about the Scottish Gabberts other than in Wikipedia.... Bergalia?)

The term 'Gabart' is similar to the spanish 'Gabarra' or the french 'Gabarre' which was one of those generic terms (like sloop/shallop/chalupa) that got used for various kinds of watercraft at different times and in different parts of Europe. In 1867, Smyth (who was given to resurrecting obsolete terms from old word lists) recognized three variants, thus:

GABARRE. Originally a river lighter; now French store-ship.
GABART, or GABBERT. A flat vessel with a long hatchway, used in canals and rivers.
GABERT. A Scotch lighter. (see GABART.)

The term 'Gabarra' is used nowadays in Spain for the english term 'Barge', including self-propulsed and non self-propulsed ones. 'Gabarra' is the generic term and if the vessel has its own propulsion system, then we call it 'gabarra autopropulsada'. The term 'barcaza' is another one for a small not self-propulsed 'gabarra'.

Coming back to topic: the problem is where we put the limits. That's why I tend to consider traditional boats only the wooden ones without engines (developed through centuries...etc). This is the difference between 'heritage' vessels and 'traditional' ones. From my point of view the concept of 'Heritage vessel' is wider than the concept of 'Traditional vessel', allowing to include all kind of vessels deserving to be saved after their service life because of their cultural interest.

So a 'Traditional boat' is always a 'Heritage boat', being the contrary not always true.

Cheers.

[Guillermo]

Following this way of thinking, may we say the term 'heritage' applied to boats is rather related with 'culture' while 'traditional' is rather related with 'ethnics'?

To clarify concepts: We can consider Gypsy Moth VI as an heritage boat, but not a traditional one.

[Bergalia]

Gosh Guillermo - but you've opened a fascinating can of thingies here.
The terms 'heritage' and 'traditional' obviously mean different things to different parties.
My own view is that 'heritage' are designs and builds which are 'worth keeping' for their beauty and style. But traditional, to me, means a craft which has evolved from generations of practical experience to suit specific conditions, purposes, and available materials for building.
Wooden boats of course fit the latter category. But I do not object to the addition of later 'improvements' - sails for oars; engines for sails.
Do we discount the old sailing wherries and barges because an engine proved more convenient to carrry freight in slack winds - when a schedule had to be met. But these two examples - being reasonably modern - I'd class as heritage rather than traditional.
And Guillermo, I'm afraid I can add little to the gabbart - except to say she as originally a lighter - slightly larger and more graceful than the Port Said 'bum-boat'. Originally under oars, later under sail, and finally under steam/diesel.
Final word, my friend. Try not to get too cluttered with the advice and opinions (though all worthy) offered in this thread. Go to the conference and give them the benefit of your own thoughts on the matter, and few will argue.

[Guillermo]

...Go to the conference and give them the benefit of your own thoughts on the matter...
I'll do that, Max. We always do, don't we? :)

More for the thinking: May we introduce the term 'Classic' also into the debate?

May we use 'Classic' as a term to define more modern vessels, inspired in or derived from traditional ones (so with some ethnic considerations, too), but independent of their construction techniques/developments?

If so, we'd have three categories: Traditional (ethnics based), Classic (more or less traditional inspired?) and Heritage (deserving to be saved, historical) vessels.

Still many fields to explore (precise definitions missing). How fantastic!


P.S. We shouldn't consider Classic boats as closely and inmediately related to traditional ones, as they can be very far away after decades of development. Let's think of a Riva, definitely a classic, but little resembling a traditional boat.

[Guillermo]

From the Memorandum of Understanding of Traditional Ships (Attached):

Definition:
For the purposes of the present Memorandum of Understanding, “traditional ships” can be all kinds of historical ships and their replicas including those designed to encourage and promote traditional skills and seamanship, that together serve as living cultural monuments, operated according to traditional principles of seamanship and technique, and holding the national certificates listed in Annex I.

[Bergalia]

But, Guillermo - it's typical of Raggi to 'muddy' the waters with his 'Sea Stallion' billed as the world's biggest and most ambitious Viking ship reconstruction. A longship modeled after a warship excavated from the Roskilde fjord after being buried in the seabed for nearly 950 years.

She is designed to carry a 'crew' of 65 volunteers, and using replicas of Viking era tools — chisels, knives, spoon bits and axes — craftsmen built the 8.25-ton Sea Stallion using 5,250 cubic feet of oak and 7,000 hand-forged iron rivets.

"Within a certain framework, we knew how they built the ship and how the missing parts should be," said Erik Andersen, 68, who designed the replica. "The only guesswork was the color of the ship and the sail."

In 'Sea Stallion' I suggest we have the 'traditional, the classic, and the heritage' ship all in one. :(

[Guillermo]

In 'Sea Stallion' I suggest we have the 'traditional, the classic, and the heritage' ship all in one.
Yes, for sure. But you have not to be sad; that's not a contardiction. It's OK. In fact, being traditional you gather all three categories in one. But a classic may be not traditional, nor heritage. And a given Pogo 40 may become heritage someday, who knows, without being a classic nor a traditional boat.

[Poida]

So all we've worked out sofar is a traditional boat is something that floats. 'cos traditionally that's what they do.

Is it too late to change the subject of the talk to something like, 'How to Have Sex in a Hammock."

It certainly would be boat related and the audience is likely to stay awake for a longer period of time.

Glad to be of help.

Poida

[Bergalia]

Is it too late to change the subject of the talk to something like, 'How to Have Sex in a Hammock."


Not traditional Poida - however in Scotland it's an 'auld' tradition to have sex on a hummock...And in certain churches sex on a hassock....:)

[Guillermo]

So all we've worked out sofar is a traditional boat is something that floats. 'cos traditionally that's what they do.

Is it too late to change the subject of the talk to something like, 'How to Have Sex in a Hammock."

It certainly would be boat related and the audience is likely to stay awake for a longer period of time.

Glad to be of help.

Poida
Thanks for your comment, Poida, but I find it not constructive. If you want to have sex in a hammock, you know what to do....;)
Cheers.

[charmc]

Ahem ... moving back to the original thread subject (although Poida's suggestion is far more interesting :) ) ...

"Classic", as I understand the term, can have at least 2 meanings, although they are similar. First, something not going back many generations, but not new either; a design in the early stages of being valued for its beauty and/or functionality in comparison to more modern designs. Second, something recognized universally, or generally, as representing the best elements of its type. For example, not all traditional boats are classics, but there are a few designs which have long been celebrated for their beauty, grace, or simplicity.

Sorry, Guillermo, but I think your separation of culture and ethnicity in the heritage vs traditional statement is arbitrary. I know you posed it as a question, so my answer is no. Interestingly, several dictionaries define "heritage" as concepts and practices handed down from ancestors "by tradition". The same sources define "tradition" as "the passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication". I agree that the terms are interrelated and not easily separated.

Your original question of technical characterization of a traditional boat incorporates all of these diverse elements. Possibly you might want to distinguish between traditional boats and traditional designs. Our friends here have mentioned several times that traditional boats are characterized by design and construction elements which have evolved over time as best meeting the needs for which the boat is used. Traditional designs may be used to construct a boat with modern materials; here the boat itself is not traditional but the design is. Modern material renderings of traditional designs are done because the traditional skills or materials are not available or are prohibitively expensive, because modern materials have proven stronger, more durable, or require less maintenance, or simply because someone wants a modern boat with "classic lines".

Confusing? I think so, because boat design is often art as much as science.

Guilermo, you are a man with knowledge of, and love for (passion for, even?), traditional boats. As at least part of your talk, why don't you show some illustrations of traditional designs that you think are worthy of mention. That, I guarantee, will deeply affect some in the audience, and leave them with the feeling that at least one of the speakers was entertaining. :)

[Guillermo]

Thanks for your post, Charlie. It deserves a proper answer. In a hurry now, I'll do this tonight.
Best.

[Raggi_Thor]

Classic and traditional is different, of course.
We have classic cars, but not traditional cars, yet?
Then traditional is a relative term, I think.
For example, the faerings and nordlandsbåt used to (traditionally) be made with a hollow garboard, that is really hollow, a hollow plank, made by adse or a hollow plane. That is a lot of work, so sometime (I guess 1890) they started to build the boats with regular sawn strakes, also in the garboard. It's a small development, but the boat is still traditional.
So how much development can we allow and still call it traditional? These boats changed the rig from square sail to gaff, then they had small engines installed, but's it's the same hull. In the 1950s(?) the hull shape changed radically, much higher cp to suit more powerful engines and carry more load. It's still clenched and with sawn frames (more of them now), but I think this is a new tradition, or a modern boat.

[safewalrus]

Traditional is or has evolved from way back to suit local conditions and materials. Also it would suit the use required for the boat! The ancients did not use nylon rope because they did not have it! If they did I'm sure it would be used in prefereance to that grass stuff! This does not mean a vessel built ine old style is not "traditional" surely/ By your definitions traditional will die out - I see traditional as ongoing, slowly (very slowly) improving to suiut present conditions materials and the like!

Classic could be said to be traditional style but modified - fishing boat converted to yacht!

But "heritage"? no don't recognise it? is it something you've inherited from those who went before? surely that is "traditional"; unless of course it was your dad's boat - that's the only heritage I recognise! Sorry fellahs but that's my take on the situation (good old 'Walrus contaversial (can't even spell it) as usual!

[charmc]

Traditional is or has evolved from way back to suit local conditions and materials. I see traditional as ongoing, slowly (very slowly) improving to suiut present conditions materials and the like!

Mike and Raggi both have good points. We need to recognize that what we see as traditional is, in effect, a photograph, a single moment in time. Tradition does evolve, although evolution is, by definition, very slow change.

Raggi's illustration is good: gradual changes in construction methods over time are evolutionary and are incorporated into the tradition. Modifications resulting from a change in power from wind to engine, however, are revolutionary changes made in a short time frame because of an innovation, i.e. the use of combustion engines.

Viewed from our perspective, these are breaks from tradition. But 300 years from now, as the fishermen zip around on their fusion powered anti-grav platforms, zapping fish with their phasers, they may very well lump all boats that actually touch the water under the heading of traditional. :)

[Guillermo]

Refining (and simplyfying) my approach, I tend to think we should consider traditional vessels the ones which:

- Are linked to an ethnic group.
- Were conceived to efficiently perform a professional task on the water.
- Have been developed and perfectioned over many generations by craftsmen/users.
- Building knowledge acquired empirically and transmited orally.
- Rugged and strong construction, using as few elements as possible.
- Wood as main construction material (Animal skins or bones can also be considered, of course)
- Mechanical unions in structure.
- Propulsion by rows or sails, not engines.
- Simple and effective rigs and maneouvres.

Of course there are many twighlight zones which are still not clear to me. Can we consider an XVIII century man-of-war ship a traditional vessel? or a Roman galley? the Vasa? Should we consider those just as historical vessels rather than traditional?

Then we have classics. Those to me are boats evolved from traditional ones, with the use of more technical knowledge and systems. Here we could mention a Herreshoff yacht, i.e., but also the scottish puffer.

Heritage boats/ships are those having had a significative role in the history of a country and deserving to be kept for the future generations. Historical of course, but not necessarily traditional or classics. Let's think of USS Enterprise, as an example.

All four categories may mix betwen them, so we may have a traditional boat (singular or just the style) being an historical one and deserving to be a part of the maritime heritage of a country.

Makes all this sense....? I'm still not sure. For the time being I'm going to center my lecture just on boats I've defined upwards as 'traditional', to narrow the scope (all units at the Ferrol gathering are going to be that kind of boats). I'll try to focuse on the technical caracterization of those, and on what our national rules and regulations should consider to register and use them as such (we have a big problems with this).

I attach a photo from a friend of mine's traditional galician 'dorna', built under those premises (Is my company's logo in the sail a traditional feature....? :D )

[charmc]

Very traditional. Advertising goes back to ancient times. A Greek vase in the Louvre from the 1st Century BC had an inscription which translated, "This is a bargain". Commercial and political advertising has been found on papyrus scrolls.

Go ahead, Guillermo, promote yourself, it's an ancient tradition! :P :D

[Poida]

Hi Guillermo, that was my creative way of talking, I was trying to be re-constructive not constructive.

What I was saying is that you appeared to have picked a subject that you stated on your first post that you didn't know the meaning of the title that you have chosen. Since then the meaning of the term traditional seems to be up to debate.

Traditionally when one gives a talk, the lecturer picks a subject that they are conversant with.

Unless of course you are conversant with the subject matter and asked for help to obtain more material.

In the film "10 Canoes" the Australian Aborigines removed bark from trees, the type I can't recall. Heated the bark over a fire to make it plyable and then formed it into a canoe.

When it cooled it became rigid.

The Australian Aborigines are well known for their dugout canoes and I was surprised to see this method of construction.

Poida

[Guillermo]

Unless of course you are conversant with the subject matter and asked for help to obtain more material.
Thanks, Poida. That's exactly what I pretend, as the term 'tarditional' seems to mean different things to different people. Unluckily the lack of a precise definition and normative leads to a variety of problems with the authorities in many countries, when someone tries to build up and navigate such a boat. The intention of the Conference in Ferrol is to analize the problem and try to contribute to a better definition and understanding of it, giving clues and ideas for a homogeneous regulamentation not only in Spain but throughout Europe, in the line of (and collaboration with) what the European Maritime Heritage (http://www.european-maritime-heritage.org/)organization is doing.

Cheers. :)

[Guillermo]

In the wake of the Ferrol gathering two years ago, this year we will have another Traditional Boats Gathering, this time in the lovely fishing village of Muros on July 9-12. See:

http://www.mardemuros.com/index.html (galician language)

Some 150 boats will attend and all of you are invited to come end enjoy this big "fiesta". A pavillion has been ready for free sleeping and lunchs for the four days only cost 20 euros.

I'll be there, not as lecturer this time but as an avid learner at the technical session. :)

Cheers

[Ad Hoc]

was it successful last time?
Did you come to a consensus on "traditional"?

I doubt you will since many designs have evolved pertaining to the local conditions. Hence each "tradition" is different.

[peter radclyffe]

On July 5th to 8th there will be a Traditional Boats Gathering in the port of Ferrol, a north Galician city (http://www.culturamaritima.org/ferrol2007/)
At the same time there will take place a technical conference on this type of boats (days 5 and 6 of July) and I'm invited as a lecturer there.

I'm writing a lecture on the "technical caracterization of traditional boats" and, to my surprise, I have not been able to find, nor in my books, nor in internet, a definition of what a "Traditional Boat" is. It's interesting: It seems everybody has clear in his/her mind what a traditional boat is, but...what's the precise definition? I've been thinking about it and I've come to the conclusion it's not so easy to give a clear and concise answer.

So I request help from these forum's kind members to help me to find out what a definition should be. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance to all contributors.

Cheers.
before ww2

[Guillermo]

Ad Hoc,
We have only a vague technical definition we need to improve. Still discussing these matters.

Thanks, Peter.

Cheers.

[Ad Hoc]

may i ask the reason for defining it, and making the definition so prescriptive?...it is being driven by legislation?

[Guillermo]

There are various reasons,
Firts is the keeping of heritage. We need to be able to as accurately as possible decide what is a traditional boat and what's not.

There's a second issue related to the necessary permissions to build a boat (so the technical documentation to be presentd to the authorities) and then how that boat is going to be used by the public (liability issues).

Cheers.

[Ad Hoc]

Well..as for "old", such as "tradition"..surely this is dictated by the local sea/weather conditions and local materials to build with, and then this 'drives' the type of vessel. But materials have changed, legislation has been slowly introduced, as have safety features, all these contribute to render a "traditional" boat no longer "traditional". Hence it would be next to impossible to follow exactly a traditional boat design/build, in this sense.
So surely this becomes more of a historical perspective?

This would surely then drive the second issue.

[Knut Sand]

Maybe I'm far astray here...?

Should a traditional boat always be considered linked to an ethnical group? In some areas there are at least two ethnical groups, both choose the boat that functions best for the local conditions; riverboats have evolved in many different areas of the world, but in my opinion the hull shape have very similar spec. So in some cases, the location, river, narrow channels, flowing water, makes it sensible with a long slender hull, also for reducing the "spin"... Forests are also normally available.

Other traditional boats, kajaks, balsa fleet, straw boats, built locally, by local materials... ( The first eskimo to take the "roll" must have been a special person, pretty close to Darwin award... Icy waters....).

Heritage boats; I feel that some of the following boats may come in under this group: War ships, or other boats, taken care of, due to the history they represent, either individually, or as an example. Record breaking boats, speed.... Change of design, hull, sail, engine, the first (or one of the first) decked boat. Following this line of thought the first hollowed out log should clearly be on that list. (can almost hear someone yell: "hey! you're destroying a perfect log! stop doing that!").

[Knut Sand]

I tend to think we should consider traditional vessels the ones which:

- Are linked to an ethnic group.
-
-
- Wood as main construction material (Animal skins or bones can also be considered, of course)
-
-
- Simple and effective rigs and maneouvres.



What I wanted to point out with my post above here, some traditional vessels forms, have evolved pretty similar in many places, hence the environment to operate the vessel in and the materials available have meant more for the direction of the development than the ethnic group using the vessel.

Mainly wood, but as stated; Other materials also; animal skins, bones, straw, balsa....

Simple and effective rigs and maneouvres.... Just want to point out; not alway as manouvrable as one might wish....:D

[Ad Hoc]

"...Should a traditional boat always be considered linked to an ethnical group?.."

hence the posting of:

"...surely this is dictated by the local sea/weather conditions and local materials to build with, and then this 'drives' the type of vessel..."

Whatever 'ethnic' group you consider, their methods will always be considered "local".

[Pericles]

3500 years ago, a group of Celts seem to have decided to bury their boat for whatever reason and in 1992 it was discovered, preserved in mud and silt, during work to widen the A20 road in Dover, Kent. It was originally built using traditional methods with only very basic hand tools, then sewn together with tree roots and caulked with moss. Sounds like stitch and glue to me.:D :D :D :D

http://www.canterburytrust.co.uk/hilights/d_boat.htm

http://www.doverdc.co.uk/museum/bronze_age_boat.aspx

http://www.archaeology.co.uk/the-timeline-of-britain/the-dover-bronze-age-boat.htm