Please help me solve this riddle...

[Wynand N]

I am busy with some course and was presented with this riddle and needs to have an answer by Friday.

You are flying in a plane and the pilot pointed to you an island ahead with a landing strip that forks at the end. He mentioned that the fork leads to a settlement of good people on the one side and to cannibals on the other side and also warned that the cannibals are big liars and deceivers.

Just then the plane's engine let go and the pilot makes a crash landing on the island and the plane came to rest at the fork junction of the runway and you realize that you are the only survivor. When you stepped out of the plane there was a person standing at the fork junction....

Now comes the crunch. You want to be with the good people who can help you but you do not know which side of the fork to take and you can ask this unknown person only ONE question to help/save you. What would it be?

[longliner45]

whats for dinner?

[safewalrus]

guess!

[jehardiman]

There is no proper question as you phrased it. In order for there to be a correct question, the cannibals MUST ALWAYS LIE!!

If that is the case then the question is....Hey! Who are you and what are you doing with that big pot?...No!...Wait!................

[SamSam]

Ask him if he wants the dead pilot.

[charmc]

OK, try this.

Assumptions:
1. The cannibals/bad guys ALWAYS lie.
2. The good people ALWAYS tell the truth.
3. The left fork leads to the cannibal/bad village.
4. The right fork leads to the "good guy" village.

Ask, "If you were from the other village, not your own, which fork would you tell me to take to get to the "good guy" village?

If he's a good/truthful guy, you're asking him what he would say if he were a liar. Being a truthful guy, he will say "left fork".

If he's a cannibal/liar, you're asking him what he would say if he were a truthful guy. Being a liar, he'll say, "left fork".

Either way, one question tells you to take the right fork. (If I figured this out right. Otherwise, you're screwed! :D:D )

[timgoz]

I'll go with Sam on this one. I'm stumped but also tired and if I exert to much mental energy thinking on this I'll get a headache.

Tim

[jehardiman]

OK, try this.

Assumptions:
1. The cannibals/bad guys ALWAYS lie.
2. The good people ALWAYS tell the truth.
3. The left fork leads to the cannibal/bad village.
4. The right fork leads to the "good guy" village.

Ask, "If you were from the other village, not your own, which fork would you tell me to take to get to the "good guy" village?

If he's a good/truthful guy, you're asking him what he would say if he were a liar. Being a truthful guy, he will say "left fork".

If he's a cannibal/liar, you're asking him what he would say if he were a truthful guy. Being a liar, he'll say, "left fork".

Either way, one question tells you to take the right fork. (If I figured this out right. Otherwise, you're screwed! :D:D )

There is a simplier solution....:D

[marshmat]

Charlie's solution would work just fine if the natives were all computer-controlled robots with precisely logical yes/no thinking..... but IMHO he'll confuse whoever he meets so badly that they'll just end up mulling it over long enough for you to fix the broken motor :D

[charmc]

There is a simplier solution....:D

???????????

[jehardiman]

???????????

Check your PM's.

I will post it my thursday AM. Lets see if any others have seen this before.

[MikeJohns]

Wynand

It helps to reduce these sorts of problem to a simple logic table, draw a table of inputs and outputs then the pattern becomes a bit clearer. In this case you can consider the truth to be a one and a lie to be a zero


Query Cannibal NiceBloke

1 0 1
0 1 0

grouping the ones you get the truth from
Not the Cannibal AND the Nicebloke

Theres no ORs in the solution and the AND is the key it involves both the players so your query must somehow involve them both.

By effectively passing the query through both parties you must always get the negative or the lie.

You could try and incorporate the NOTs into the query to get a true answer but easier to ask a plain yes no and knowingly get the lie

So make it a yes no question and do the opposite.

Sorry it may all look a bit complex if you haven't studied logic but it is really easy once you get the hang of it. Unless you have no pencil then you end up as the fellow below :)

[charmc]

Wynand

It helps to reduce these sorts of problem to a simple logic table, draw a table of inputs and outputs then the pattern becomes a bit clearer. In this case you can consider the truth to be a one and a lie to be a zero


Query Cannibal NiceBloke

1 0 1
0 1 0

grouping the ones you get the truth from
Not the Cannibal AND the Nicebloke

Theres no ORs in the solution and the AND is the key it involves both the players so your query must somehow involve them both.

By effectively passing the query through both parties you must always get the negative or the lie.

You could try and incorporate the NOTs into the query to get a true answer but easier to ask a plain yes no and knowingly get the lie

So make it a yes no question and do the opposite.

Sorry it may all look a bit complex if you haven't studied logic but it is really easy once you get the hang of it. Unless you have no pencil then you end up as the fellow below :)

OK do you see it yet ?

Jehardiman,

You thought MINE was too complex?? :D :D

[hansp77]

I know there is probably a logical answer for this, but,
Ask him if the water is wet, if the sky is blue, or any other damn obvious question. If he answers yes, follow him home. If he answers no, wait and see which way he goes and go the other. If he has a cousin or some sort of Romeo and Juliet relationship happening in the other villiage, you might be in trouble.

[hansp77]

While logically the whole,
"If I asked a man from the other village if this was the road to the cannibal village what would he say ?"
might make sense, in the practical situation, I just don't see it working.

I think you might get some sort confused look and an answer like

"huh? man from other village... what? I am man from village. Not other man. no other village... what?"
And then you've blown your question.:D

even if the islander understands your language, and your question properly (cause if he doesn't understand it, he could still answer truthfully or in a lie in a way unexpectable) you would still have to wonder about the logic of walking towards the village that the only person you could find said WAS the cannibal village!:D (I can just picture the after dinner conversation as they are sucking on your bones, "can you believe this guy? What a fool! I actually told him that this was the way to my cannibal village- Don't ask me why, I was still a little dazed from watching the plane crash! the damn fool grinned like a stupid monkey, and strolled on straight in! that was when you walked up and speared him in the back! I couldn't stop laughing... ahh... stupid bloody foreigner eh!"

The other option is of course to just grab the dead pilot (par-cooked?) from the plane wreckage, throw him over your shoulder and pick any old path.
If you arrive at the non-canibal village, you have appeared as a concerned friend who brought your buddy to be cared for and eventually buried,
if you arrive at the cannibal village, well you have brought dinner, and after after offering him around, you indicate that you will just go and grab another one for desert, and slip off down the other parth to the other village.

[MikeJohns]

:) :) :) :) :)

[Bergalia]

No need for words. Take the bloke by the hand and start walking down either road. If he objects - you'll know he is friendly and you're walking towards cannibals. No objection - then he's a cannibal and you're walking him 'home'.

[timgoz]

He would also not object if he were from the good village and you went that way. And if from the bad village and you went toward the good one he may object, unless he was headed there for lunch anyway. :)

Tim

[jehardiman]

I will post it my thursday AM. Lets see if any others have seen this before.

The simple solution is to ask him

"Which way to your house?"

The good/truthful will point right (good village)

the cannibal/liar will point right (the NOT bad village)

MikeJohns truth table showed that there was both a positive (i.e. pointed you the right way all the time) and negative (i.e. pointed you the wrong way all the time) way to form a response; and charmc gave the negative one.

BTW, the negative solution is the perfered solution to the "Bad identical twin" problem. In that case you ask one what the other would do and then do the opposite.

[HighTide]

This is so easy.

Ask the guy standing a the fork, "Are you the good guy from the cannibal village?

The bad guy will say YES and take you to the cannibal village. The good guy will say NO and take you to the friendly village.

Here is the logic. The good guy will instinctively say no because he is not from the cannibal village. The bad guy on the other hand will lie pretending to be the good guy and have you for dinner.

This riddle is child's play. Got any more? :D

[MikeJohns]

The simple solution is to ask him

"Which way to your house?".

You are a true reductionist:)

[reswin rauf]

sir, I am proeeding with a project,how the power &speed of the vessel can be increased .Sir wat is u'r opinion about fitting nitro boost engines in vessel,will this cause any hindrence to the smooth movement of the vessel.Also pls explain the merits &d-merits of using nitro engines in the vessels...........::)

[Trevlyns]

Wynand, I remember seeing this years ago but one piece of information is not quite correct. At the fork are two people, one from each tribe. Then the answer would be simple.

Address one and point to any other islander and ask “Which fork would he tell me to take?”

Then take the other fork.

If he’s truthful and the pointed out fellow is a liar, he would say what the liar would say. If he’s a liar and the pointed out fellow is truthful, the indicated route would still be a lie.

[Trevlyns]

... but then, I didn't reply by Friday, so you probably already know the answer!:D

[smokeonthewater]

Did the official answer ever get posted??

[Bergalia]

Did the official answer ever get posted??


Ah, another trick question.....:)

[SamSam]

Maybe it wasn't a trick question. Wynand was posting pretty regular, but the start of this thread 2 weeks ago was his last post. Perhaps he was actually standing at the fork looking for advice and made the wrong decision. Woe is us.

[Bergalia]

... Wynand was posting pretty regular, but the start of this thread 2 weeks ago was his last post. Perhaps he was actually standing at the fork looking for advice and made the wrong decision.


I've had a quick check around the web - no items concerning mass vomiting among cannibal tribes...

[SamSam]

I've had a quick check around the web - no items concerning mass vomiting among cannibal tribes...]

That could be because most islands only have a weekly paper and no reliable delivery.

Another solution to the riddle was to go with the flow and become a cannibal , which sounds better than becoming a meal. You could always mend your cannibalish ways but it would be hard to recover from being eaten.

Sticking with the scenario, you could ask the guy at the fork "What's that behind you?" and when he turned to look, flatten him. Then run into the jungle and surrepticiously scope out the two camps until you found out which was which.

[charmc]

Sticking with the scenario, you could ask the guy at the fork "What's that behind you?" and when he turned to look, flatten him. Then run into the jungle and surrepticiously scope out the two camps until you found out which was which.

At last, a simple, practical, easy to understand solution! :D :D

[Bergalia]

]....Another solution to the riddle was to go with the flow and become a cannibal....

I think you've solved the riddle of the vanishing Wynand.I see that the South African Film Corporation is doing a re-make of "Guess Who's All Coming To Dinner....." :(

[Frosty]

Heres a riddle for you.

How come Mugabwe is still in power and hasnt been shot.

Un emplyment 80% ---inflation 2000%

He says its not his fault.

[Bergalia]

Heres a riddle for you.How come Mugabwe is still in power and hasnt been shot..


Don't worry frosty - Wynand is on his way to eat him....:)

[BarendGrobler]

Hey frosty
Just to clarify, Zim inflation 9000%!!!
Mugabe still alive because he's serving someone els's pupose; destroying a country who will then willingly give up resourses to those just willing to feed the people.
And the riddle: why did this dude fly in the first place, just shows, rather go by boat!

[Frosty]

Hey frosty
Just to clarify, Zim inflation 9000%!!!

9000%? --I cant work that out .-You mean that if a beer was 1 dollar in 2007 it will be 9000 dollar in 2008 ?

Thats a bit difficult to swallow.

[charmc]

Easy, Frosty!

Per cent means to divide by 100.

So 9000% inflation means the $1 beer there will only be $90 next year. Is that a bit easier to swallow? :)

[Wynand N]

not that easy to get rid of me:D I rather have a steak than to be a steak.....

Anyhow, no answer was given to this riddle.
However, the moral of this riddle - when making a serious decision, think carefully, it may just backfire on you.

[Frosty]

Oh thats better,-- only 90 dollar.

Oh dear thats a lot isnt it. You wouldnt want that for a few years.

[Wynand N]

and on the old Bob issue...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/wynand/D1107WW0.jpg

[BarendGrobler]

To give you an Idea of what its like to live in Zim (I don't, but as a neighbouring country we are receiving most of the refugees, so plenty of 1'st hand accounts!)
Most people have to get DAYLY pay increases (that’s right, a raise every day!) because of the ridiculous inflation rate.
What used to be shops, now only holds the bear-necessities and only very little (you cant sell to much bread @ Z$1 when tomorrow it'll cost you Z$1.5)
What used to be flourishing farms are now empty wastelands- that’s what catalizes all this mess, because off the ridiculous land reform, there's no food in the country and almost all the people in the agriculturally powerful country lost their jobs (unemployment rate around 90%)
Worst of all, its an amazing country with great mineral wealth, great agricultural potential and beautiful natural wealth!
Sorry for the sermon, just very passionate about the poor people being destroyed by Mugabe and those financing him.
cheers

[Frosty]

Pitty they dont have oil , then the Americans would be concerned and de seat him.

They like a bit of oil do the Americans, they get a bit upset if the flow is restricted--anywhere.

Its an incredible situation, hard to imagine really.

It cant go on fore ever though,-- I mean it will have to burn itslf out. When theres no food, no electric ,no water, no army --finished. free to whoever wants to take it on.

It leaves you thinking how dumb can this man be?

[charmc]

It leaves you thinking how dumb can this man be?

Not dumb, evil. He is the leader of a small group of people, living behind armed guards and electric fences, who are gathering all the wealth for themselves.

Once everything is gone, they will somehow manage to live off the few hundred millions they have moved to offshore investments.

Takes lessons from his Dear Leader dear buddy in North Korea, who trained his private army within the army, "5th Brigade", if I remember correctly.

[Frosty]

Its hard to believe the world could stand by and watch this happen.

I am ashamed.

[SamSam]

Zimbabwe took the wrong fork.

[charmc]

Its hard to believe the world could stand by and watch this happen.

I am ashamed.

Well said.


Zimbabwe, Darfur, Sudan, Somalia, Indonesia, Haiti, North Korea, etc., etc.

I share your feeling.

[jehardiman]

The fact that it is an issue to you means that the world is not standing by and letting it happen.

First thing though, the government/powers that be in the area need to want to be helped. The whole Al-Anon thing...first you have to admit you have a problem.

[PI Design]

I normally stay out of the political stuff on this site, but have to agree with Frosty on this. Blair etc say about Iraq "we can't sit back and watch", but they do just that in Zimbabwe, which is under a regime at least as bad, and has closer links to the UK. Whilst I normally believe we should steer clear of interfering in other countries issues, I am ashamed that we appear to do so little about Zim.

[timgoz]

That is why I do not trust thier stated "motives" for interference elsewhere such as Iraq.

Other motives, some I feel sinister and/or of a purely monetary reason, must be behind these situations.

Look who made the big $$$ in Vietnam. Oil companies at the top. Bush has stocks in what?

Then you had a certain intelligence agency most likely smuggling "H" out of SE Asia.

The opium crops since we invaded Afghanistan have set records almost every year. Makes you wonder.

I'm no conspiracy theory wacko, just someone who has been around enough to know the way things can be.

My motto is "If you do not trust anybody, you do not have to trust anybody".

Enough drivel.

Take care.

Tim

PS Sorry guys, thought I was on the drivel thread. These discussions do have a way of evolving do they not?

[longliner45]

with that said ,,,,,,the latter.keep in mind that war is fought for money ,,if there is no money to gain ,,no help will come from the greedy bastards that run the free world,,,,,,longliner

[Bergalia]

No riddle at all gentlemen. (I have explained to Tim my 'silence' of late has been due to a mini-hurricane putting me off line - perhaps a blessing for some).
Economic rationalism would appear to be the answer. The 'civilised' powers of the west rely on manufacturing to keep their economies (hence nations) 'healthy'. Weaponry, oil and chemicals are the driving force rather than 'democracy'. Profit, profit, profit.
At present there is little profit to be made in interfering in the affairs of countries lacking in oil or mineral wealth...until it is discovered. Then and only then will the need to impose 'democracy' become urgent.

[charmc]

While I occasionally cling to the idealism of my youth, I have recognized the realities of the ways governments act. Unfortunately, the money factor is paramount. Had South Africa been less blessed with diamonds and strategic metals, would the "Western democracies" have been so united and active in their support for a peaceful end to apartheid and non-violent transition of power in government? Cynical question? Yes, but also recognizes reality.

[Verytricky]

Heres a riddle for you.

How come Mugabwe is still in power and hasnt been shot.

Un emplyment 80% ---inflation 2000%

He says its not his fault.

It is not his fault. It is a result of the White Minority plooting to 'loose' their farms in a pre-arranged plot to create discord and unrest in order to topple his government. The plot was defined 20 years ago by Smith and has been executed impecably.



South Africa was a different fish so to speak. A very strong local economy and due to slowly implemented sanctions an economy that could adapt year by year. The apartheit government also had the backing of about 1/3 of the black population who were working towards a peaceful 'federal' state, along with several nominally indipendant countries within their borders, effectivly resolving about half the black populations grievence for the vote. Had there been a swift implementation of sanctions, and a unified opposition to the white power by the black power groups, the issue would have ended up like Zimbabwe in a very short time.

[BarendGrobler]

[QUOTE=Verytricky;149087]It is not his fault. It is a result of the White Minority plooting to 'loose' their farms in a pre-arranged plot to create discord and unrest in order to topple his government.QUOTE]

WHAT???:confused:
Sorry, I'm trying to figure out whether you are being sarcastic or whether you actually mean this utter rubbish?

[PI Design]

Was wondering the same thing myself :confused:

[Wynand N]

that statement of verytricky defies all logic. Then again the best players are the spectators in the pavilion....
I wonder if he had ever been to South Africa or Zimbabwe:?: As I stay in SA and visits old Bob's ruins for our annual fishing trip to the spectacular Zambezi river (whats left of it) since the early 70's, I had seen this once prosperous country reduced to ashes. One has to experience it to believe it.

The bad thing of this current situation in Zim, is that no one wants to flee northwards into Africa where it is about the same after the colonists were evicted and the black locals took over government and the rest is history. Hence, they trampled our borders into SA and took the few jobs that are available away from our citizens that needs it most:mad:

[SamSam]

It sounds like cannibals are everywhere, no matter which path you take.

[Albert Ilardi]

The answer, of course, is no. One of the fundamental rules of being a soldier is that you follow orders. The military and war is not an episode of Let's.
Albert Apple

[longliner45]

its time to quit being led like sheep ,by the powerfull few,,,,soldiers can question task,,like kelly at mialy,he did not question ,and was called on it .and is serving time ,,the peoples voices should be heard,,,,,,now is the time ,,,,,,longliner

[Bergalia]

The answer, of course, is no. One of the fundamental rules of being a soldier is that you follow orders.


Sounds familiar Albert. Nuremburg Trials if I remember right. But the world doesn't seem to have learned that lesson.

And Longliner, it would seem the only way out of this cycle of meglomania is to demand our 'leaders' do exactly that. They lead. It's what we pay them for. We should insist that they are first 'over the top' with fixed bayonets...and the rest of us might then be willing to follow...

[SamSam]

its time to quit being led like sheep ,by the powerfull few,,,,soldiers can question task,,like kelly at mialy,he did not question ,and was called on it .and is serving time ,,the peoples voices should be heard,,,,,,now is the time ,,,,,,longliner

Not is, was, and not much of it.


US Army Lt William Calley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley) was convicted in 1971 of premeditated murder in ordering the shootings and initially sentenced to life in prison; two days later, however, President Richard Nixon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon) ordered him released from prison, pending appeal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal) of his sentence. Calley eventually served 4½ months at a military prison at Fort Leavenworth. Calley claimed he was following orders from his captain, Ernest Medina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Medina); Medina denied giving the orders and was acquitted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquit) at a separate trial. Most of the soldiers involved in the My Lai incident were no longer enlisted. Of the 26 men initially charged, Lt Calley's was the only conviction. The entire episode inspired what is known today as a Medina standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina_standard).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

[longliner45]

perhaps deep down inside ,,,I wanted him to still be seving time ,I stand corrected,,longliner

[jehardiman]

One of the fundamental rules of being a soldier is that you follow orders.

The fundamental rule of being a soldier is that you serve your country. That means you follow legal orders. It also means you do not follow illegal orders. Every month you get read the UCMJ, that defines legal and illegal actions. There is no "I didn't understand" or "I was just following orders". This is plain enough as it goes back to the 12th century, with Henry II and Thomas Becket.

[timgoz]

In the heat of combat it may be hard to differentiate the morality of an order. Given time afterwards to reflect, and with more complete knowledge of "why" the order was given, a correct judgement would be easier to obtain.

Happy to not be over there either as a Private or especially anything higher ranking.

Take care.

Tim

[SamSam]

In the heat of combat it may be hard to differentiate the morality of an order. Given time afterwards to reflect, and with more complete knowledge of "why" the order was given, a correct judgement would be easier to obtain.

Happy to not be over there either as a Private or especially anything higher ranking.

Take care.

Tim

Wynand, excuse me for taking part in hijacking your thread. I don't know if anyone here reads 'Vanity Fair', but I was surprised to find that even though it's full of full page ads for lipstick, purses, shoes, clothes, etc., the majority of articles deal with serious issues, as much or more so than the 'New Yorker' (which broke the Abu Grub story). A few months ago they had a detailed account of the Haditha incident, where some troops killed 20+ 'civilians?' after a roadside bomb killed/wounded some of their team. It detailed how vague the orders from above were, to the effect that if it seems to be a threat you have permission to kill it, to how specific the rules actually are once the dust has settled. In the majority of all infractions of the 'rules' of war, the private and those on the scene pay while the higher ranks slide by to retirement.

[timgoz]

Sam,

Lets hope when we get our people home from the present engagements we will not be so hasty in getting involved in future ones.

It is not like we do not have plenty of issues that need work on right here.

Wynand,

I to apoligize for getting off topic.

Tim

[Wynand N]

Wynand, excuse me for taking part in hijacking your thread....

what hijack:confused: It is all part of the riddle is it not, and very interesting turn it took - I enjoy reading other peoples views on different affairs:cool:

[SamSam]

Sam,

Lets hope when we get our people home from the present engagements we will not be so hasty in getting involved in future ones.


That brings to mind the cliche about failing to learn from history dooms you to repeat mistakes. The problem isn't learning, it's remembering.
I wonder where the music is in this war?

C'mon all you big, strong men,
Uncle Sam needs yer help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam,
Way down yonder in Vietnam,
So put down yer books
And pick up yer gun
Whoopie, we're gonna have some fun!

[timgoz]

The "history" they teach these days would not be any good to remember, as they tend to teach what they think should have been, instead of what actually was.

Tim

[longliner45]

are they still teaching history?//??what are they teaching in school? ever been to macdonalds or a gas station ,,and the cash register goes down and you buying a 3dollar item ,,,,,,and the show stops because the kid cant figure out change from a five?longliner

[timgoz]

I know a 17 yr. old girl who cannot read an anolog clock, only digital. I'd say only 20% of US 12th graders could name the seven continents.

Hardly any young folks read anymore.

Lord help us in the future, we are going to need it.

Tim

[Frosty]

A deseast friend of mine told me that during the Vietnam war it was possible to go to the border and give the American soldiers some money and they would escort you to a secure wall and let you fire at people.

Like at a fair ground. I have no idea how much it was to have a go at killing rice crop workers.

I would have thought the location would have changed daily.

[SamSam]

A deseast friend of mine told me that during the Vietnam war it was possible to go to the border and give the American soldiers some money and they would escort you to a secure wall and let you fire at people.

Like at a fair ground. I have no idea how much it was to have a go at killing rice crop workers.

I would have thought the location would have changed daily.

A guy told me once him and a friend bet on whether they could hit a farmer gook way, way, way off in a paddy. The other guy shot, nothing happened, the guy shot, the farmer fell down. They relized what they were doing then, the guy still felt kind of bad 10 years later. True or not, I don't know. he seemed serious.

[SamSam]

are they still teaching history?//??what are they teaching in school? ever been to macdonalds or a gas station ,,and the cash register goes down and you buying a 3dollar item ,,,,,,and the show stops because the kid cant figure out change from a five?longliner

Our education system is one of the worst counties in the state, the state is one of the worst in the nation, the nation is one of the worst in the industralized world. Plans are in the works to statewide cut the number of school days from 180 to 170 to help supply workers to bolster the tourism industry, and to introduce creationism and Christian Bible studies. Apparently 'no child left behind' is important when it comes to the Rapture, not so much for life on earth.

[charmc]

ever been to macdonalds or a gas station ,,and the cash register goes down and you buying a 3dollar item ,,,,,,and the show stops because the kid cant figure out change from a five?longliner

How to become a celebrity and get instant respect from a youthful cashier (albeit momentary, since their attention span is about that of a poodle):

When your total is $17.88, give him/her $23.13. He/she will stare at you, openmouthed, then mumble, "You gave me too much". When you explain that it's just so your change will be a five dollar bill and a quarter, he/she will shrug, "Whatever", and input the total you gave. When the screen reads: Change due: $5.25, he/she will gasp, "Wow, that's sooooo cool! You can, like, do math in your head? You've gotta be way smart to do that, you know".
Crying or banging your head against the nearest wall is optional.

It happened to me.

Yes, Tim, these are the folks who will be paying into Social Security as we begin to collect. Pretty scary.

[timgoz]

Charlie,

SS is scheduled to go broke the year I can retire. What an investment!

I taught math for a year at a private school, 7th & 8th Basic Math & Pre-Algebra. Some kids are so thick you would find it hard to believe. If they cannot figure it out in 5 seconds they give up and daydream of when they can get back to thier video games. :(

Gotta go relax and digest my chicken wings. Take care sir.

Tim

[charmc]

Our education system is one of the worst counties in the state, the state is one of the worst in the nation, the nation is one of the worst in the industralized world. Plans are in the works to statewide cut the number of school days from 180 to 170 to help supply workers to bolster the tourism industry, and to introduce creationism and Christian Bible studies.

Wow, Sam, and I thought Florida was bad. At least we finally got rid of Katherine Harris.

Some years ago there was a New Jersey high school principal in a ghetto who got tough, insisted on parental accountability for kids, and went back to a basic curriculum. He made headlines, received national awards, saw average graduation rates and test scores soar ... and was fired when the Board of Ed said he was making the other schools look bad. A principal in Baltimore a few years later had a similar experience.

Bill Cosby was attacked by self-appointed minority "leaders" when he said that minority kids would never get a good job until they stopped imitating gangsters and started working harder at school subjects. Instead of using the opportunity to unite in supporting him, they said he was way off, didn't understand that it was society's fault the kids don't behave better.

Tim, where's that barf smilie?

[timgoz]

There ya go.

Tim

[longliner45]

samsam,,I think it was real ,,I seen once on a war footage of korea ,,a p-40 strafing a field and fireing on a farmer riding an ox ,,the farmer ,who his whole life was probably engulfed in this one field ,,he was probably un educated and knew much about farming his field ,,,his life was simple,it was too easy for the fighter pilot to squeeze the trigger ,no repercusions for him,I made a choise as a young man ,,to join the army ,and volunteer for sf,because of this movie ,,I decided that if I went to war ,I would face my enemy ,,,face to face ,,,,,,,no distant killing ,,sam the few short sentances were chilling to me ,,,I did end up going to war ,,called conflict or operations ,, and I still have bad feelings ,,and yes I cry about it ,,,,,,,man is a preditor ,if he has the upper hand on his fellow man ,he will use it ,,,,,I hope someday things will change,,,untill then I will be sailing ,,,,,,,,longliner

[Frosty]

When I went to school I could be hit whacked, shouted at (frequently)or expelled.

As my Father would have gone ballistic I tried no to get him involved . I wasnt a bad kid.

It would appear that bad schooling/ and or bad kids came around the same time we told the teachers to not hit them any more . Even worse could not shout at them, or anything really.

The reall worst thing was to tell the kids that.

[artemis]

When I went to school I could be hit whacked, shouted at (frequently)or expelled.

As my Father would have gone ballistic I tried no to get him involved . I wasnt a bad kid.

It would appear that bad schooling/ and or bad kids came around the same time we told the teachers to not hit them any more . Even worse could not shout at them, or anything really.

The reall worst thing was to tell the kids that.

Send them to a parochial school. The Sisters will bring them around quickly (ruler to the knuckles for starters).

[Frosty]

Rulers to the knuckles? Is this before the kids rape them.

They need punishment not tickling.

There will probably be a big call for late education . people who wise up and realise what a dork they are and wish now to learn something.

[SamSam]

Longliner, I didn't mean to dredge up any junk, sorry.
I think you're right about man being a predator. And that brings us full circle, back to them damn cannibals and which fork to take! ;)

[SamSam]

When I went to school I could be hit whacked, shouted at (frequently)or expelled.

As my Father would have gone ballistic I tried no to get him involved . I wasnt a bad kid.

It would appear that bad schooling/ and or bad kids came around the same time we told the teachers to not hit them any more . Even worse could not shout at them, or anything really.

The reall worst thing was to tell the kids that.

Yes, but once one finds out, it's only a short time until they all know.

It's kind of two different things, you can beat them with sticks but they can still be plenty stupid.

If you can maintain discipline with beatings, that will help stop the ones that don't want to learn from disrupting the ones that do, but you also have to have a curriculum that has something to offer and teachers that can teach.

And parents that give a sh!t.

[Bergalia]

Right, that's enough of this S&M nostalgia. Here's another 'riddle'. (Mind you it involves a father's punishment...sort of...)

A wealthy Arab was worried by his two sons' show of ambition and greed and lack of sharing. They were always arguing among themselves (not at all as brothers do...)
So he told them that he had decided to give all his fortune to the son whose horse came 'second' in a race from Medina to Mecca.
The two boys set off, stalling and pausing, making every excuse for being slow and delaying the eventual outcome. But after weeks and weeks they eventually came in sight of the walls of the holy city, where they dismounted at an oasis, neither willing to go any further.
Sudenly an idea came to one of the sons and he leaned forward and whispered to his brother. At that they both leapt into their saddles and raced at breakneck speed towards the city.
Since the race ended abiding to the original rules - what did the boy whisper to his brother?

[MikeJohns]

Don't look behind you but it's the second crusade and there's a horde of vengeful religious fanatics ?

But being sensible I had to think about that one, now it seems so obvious he didn't only whisper something they did something too.

[Frosty]

They agreed to split the fortune 60-40 The larger going to the winner.

[MikeJohns]

Nope Frosty its so simple its embarrassing when you see it.
The original deal stands but read the winning clause as a lawyer would.

[jehardiman]

Right, that's enough of this S&M nostalgia. Here's another 'riddle'. (Mind you it involves a father's punishment...sort of...)

A wealthy Arab was worried by his two sons' show of ambition and greed and lack of sharing. They were always arguing among themselves (not at all as brothers do...)
So he told them that he had decided to give all his fortune to the son whose horse came 'second' in a race from Medina to Mecca.
The two boys set off, stalling and pausing, making every excuse for being slow and delaying the eventual outcome. But after weeks and weeks they eventually came in sight of the walls of the holy city, where they dismounted at an oasis, neither willing to go any further.
Sudenly an idea came to one of the sons and he leaned forward and whispered to his brother. At that they both leapt into their saddles and raced at breakneck speed towards the city.
Since the race ended abiding to the original rules - what did the boy whisper to his brother?

"Lets swap horses."

In the contest, the horse has to be second...not the son. By swaping horses, the first son to finish whould have his horse be second. Of course, the smart son (the whisperer), had chosen a nag while his not so smart brother a 17 hand arabian. He just waited till the right moment to spring his trap.

[Frosty]

Is that it?

[Bergalia]

"Lets swap horses."

That's the answer Frosty, JE has proven a master of lateral thinking.:)

[thudpucker]

That was called "The lady and the Tiger" when I went through school. I dont remember if I ever figured it out.

[Bergalia]

Something to get the brain ticking over:

1: You are in a race. (Yachting - powering - even running, whatever) You overtake the second person. What position are you now in?

2: And if you overtake the last person, you are now...?

Answers sometime in the future

[SamSam]

1. Second place.
2. One lap ahead of the last place person.
3. Out of breath, hurting, ready to collapse.

[Bergalia]

Excellent SamSam. Right both times...the third I can't believe.

Now try this - no pen and paper - no calculator. Do it in your head: Take 1000 and add 40. Add another 1000, then add 30. Add another 1000, plus 20. Add another 1000, and add 10. What is the total?

[thudpucker]

You tricky devil, You wanted me to say 5000 didn't you?

[Bergalia]

You tricky devil, You wanted me to say 5000 didn't you?

Yes - but you shouldn't :)

[timgoz]

4100.

[Bergalia]

Correct - but you cheated Tim - you took your shoes off to count....:mad:

[timgoz]

Did not. I did come up with 5000 first. Then always being careful to double check, I broke it into doing thousands first then the smaller #'s.

That will get you though. :)

Tim

[timgoz]

Berg,

I was somewhat embarrased, but will now come clean. Years ago in a pub there was a fellow, from Scotland he said. He'd almost be 70 now I would guess.

He wanted to consume large quantities of alchohol, like most Scots, but also like most, he did not want to spend the matching large sums of money.

So he tricked me and others with your word/number qiuz. Devious man he was. Said he would use the money accumulated over years of trickery to relocate from Scotland, (he had to for being so devious amongst his own), to somewhere halfway around the world or thereabouts.

Yep, seen it before.

Tim

[Bergalia]

[QUOTE=timgoz;153521...I was somewhat embarrased, but will now come clean. Tim[/QUOTE]

Sorry Tim - can't believe you. You must have taken your shoes off because your explanation is so full of flaws not the least being that you met a Scotsman in a pub; that the Scot drank alcohol, and that the Scot was devious...None of which bears close scrutiny......:)

[timgoz]

I was expecting a better reply than that! Try more coffee next time. :)

Didn't have to take my shoes off as they were off already.

You guys have had it quite cold down there eh?

Tim

[Frosty]

How the hell is it 4100 I must be a bit thick or something because I have done it ten times or more and its 5 bloody thousand.

No matter you add it up as you read it or add in 1000's first?

Oh are these Scottish 1000's ?

[longliner45]

frosty maybe walruss can help you???????

[timgoz]

Frosty: A person who can handle any job onboard but Navigator.

40+30+20+10=100

1000+1000+1000+1000=4000

4000+100=4100

Tim

[Frosty]

How the hell can 4x one thousandS +40+30+20+10 come to 4100 ?

Bloody Scottish,--- usless at maths.

Unless its some silly play on words and not a mathmatical problem at all. In which case I still dont get it.

Im going ,--Im going to hammer a nail into a peice of wood.

[longliner45]

for witnessing this ,,I should get 4100 points,,,,,,dont you agree? oh I almost forgot :) :) :)

[longliner45]

Ill be the first to say,I am not the sharpest tool in the shed ,,but wasnt it an english band ,,jethro tull? that wrote the song ,,,,,(thick as a brick,)love ya all ...longliner

[Frosty]

Im not too bothered about the smiley ones Longliner it the tounge sticking out one that sends me into a raging lap top smashing lunatic.

Err on the other hand I dont see an one explaning this as to why its
4100 just,--It is.

Is this a wind Frosty up exercise?

Ask Walrus ,---ha ha ha I dont think he will get it. If he gets it I will show my arse on the town hall steps. Unless some one PM's him first.

Oh yes definately a wind up Frosty day.

[longliner45]

troling moter wont start,,,,,,what kind of rope to use,,,,,park avenue boom,,,,who has time for that ,,when all this is going on,,,,that was really good bergy......I tried to give everyone points ,but im all used up right now,,,,all you guys are great ,,,have a good night,longliner

[Frosty]

Jethro Tull--the leg twisting flute player, worked at British Government premium bonds office in Blackpool.

I have never heard of "thick as a brick"

I have heard of "Brick in the wall " but that was the Boom town rats singer,--Oh what his name he is a sir now? He threw a **** load of money at Africa.--------Bob Geldoph.

[longliner45]

dont feel bad frosty ,,I had to do it on paper 4 times,have a good night man,longliner

[Frosty]

.I tried to give everyone points ,but im all used up right now,,,

Me too just in case anyone thought I wasnt pulling my weight.

[charmc]

Im not too bothered about the smiley ones Longliner it the tounge sticking out one that sends me into a raging lap top smashing lunatic.

I'd be careful about sending yourself into a raging laptop-smashing lunatic, Frosty ... he might hurt you. :p :p :p

[Frosty]

I'd be careful about sending yourself into a raging laptop-smashing lunatic, Frosty ... he might hurt you. :p :p :p


Its not those that do it,--- its these,----:P ARGHHH, SMASH, BIF, BOOM, BAM.

[timgoz]

My laptops screen resulution and/or eyesight must be bad, because I thought these ":P " (sorry Frost) were a fruit or vegetable.

Tim

[charmc]

Its not those that do it,--- its these,----:P ARGHHH, SMASH, BIF, BOOM, BAM.

Ahhhh, now I get it. It's you who are the laptop-smashing lunatic. The way you said it at first it sounded like you were bumping into a big nasty guy at a bar (never a good thing to do).

I always wondered what ever happened to the Hulk (Greenie, not Hogan) ... hmmm .... could it be that you have a secret identity under that snowy exterior? The grouchiness would fit .... hmmm ... and the brilliant physics professor alter ego, no, that doen't fit at all. Of course Hulk's a lot older now, maybe the physics prof has Alzheimers and just sits around drooling and staring at the cute young things in bikinis ... :P :P :P

[charmc]

I have never heard of "thick as a brick"

I have heard of "Brick in the wall " but that was the Boom town rats singer,--Oh what his name he is a sir now? He threw a **** load of money at Africa.--------Bob Geldoph.

Frosty, Is this how you wind everyone else up?

Never heard of "Thick as a Brick"?
"Boomtown Rats" doing "Brick in the Wall"?

Think I'll retire to the dark side of the moon for a bit to calm myself ... too late, ARRRGH BIF BOOM BAM.

[charmc]

Ask Walrus ,---ha ha ha I dont think he will get it. If he gets it I will show my arse on the town hall steps. Unless some one PM's him first.

Pssssst, Walrus, it's Charlie. Say 5716, or 10200, or 12; whatever you do, don't say 4100!!

[timgoz]

Hey Charlie,

When you did the 4100 riddle in your head the first time, what did you come up with? Doing it as written I came up with 5000. :(

The second time I did as stated above and got 4100 (sorry Frosty).

It is strange the brain.

Tim

[charmc]

OK, Tim, yah got me.

Yeah, I got 5000 the first time. I did it quickly, thinking it was simple, and my brain said "four thousand ninety, plus 10, 5000. OK, that was easy ... oops!" :o

[timgoz]

That Berg sure is a tricky old salt.

Tim

[Frosty]

No,--- I have never heard the song 'thick as a brick' well I don't think so ,--can you sing it?

If some kind person would explain it to me I would appreciate it. I would be prepared to re emburse someone with points if you are not one of the persons to whom I have given points to recently.

There are 4 1000's yes,-- and 50+30+20+10= 5000--?

[Frosty]

Frosty: A person who can handle any job onboard but Navigator.

40+30+20+10=100

1000+1000+1000+1000=4000

4000+100=4100

Tim

Oh yeah---- why did I get it to 5000? Thats strange isnt it.

Thats very clever that. I would always check my change off bergalia.

[Bergalia]

.... I would always check my change off bergalia.


And what makes you think bergalia gives change ??????

[Small Wally]

A hen and a half lays an egg and a half in a day and a half.

How long does it take 100 hens to lay 100 eggs?

SW

[Bergalia]

I reckon a single day. Not even I have half hens laying....yet....:D

[alan white]

I got 54,243. My theory is there are two answers.

[Frosty]

Im not doing any more of these silly questions ,--How can you get a hen and a half ?
So a hen and half a dead one,-- lays the same as err 1 egg in half a hen--No

Nope --- dont know. My missus says you cant buy half an egg.

[artemis]

...Nope --- dont know. My missus says you cant buy half an egg.

Here in the States one can buy hard boiled eggs at most deli's. So if I buy three, I can sell half of one to Frosty and he can show his missus how smart he is. :P :P :P

[timgoz]

Speaking of chicken, I have some Chicken Cordon Bleu in the oven as we speak. Cuople more minutes I'll pull the foil off it so it crisps up a bit.

Made it once before to try to impress a girl (knockout!). Must not have had it's intended effect, as though she got the chicken, I did not get what I was after. :mad:

Sorry, thought this was the drivel thread.

Tim

[Frosty]

Tim I just tried to give you points for taking the foil off the chicken so it crisps up a bit. I know what you mean about crispy chicken,---- here I like to eat crispy duck!!,-- same thing but different.

Anyway I could'nt give you points because I have to spread some more around else'where ,--- something like that.

In my opinion girls are a bit funny about chicken.

In Yorkshire I had very good results with Steak pudding chips and peas in a tray with gravy, outside the gas works.

[timgoz]

Should not have removed foil so quick. Was a little dry, but good.

[charmc]

Tim, Frosty,

Some self discipline, gentlemen, please.

This thread is R_I_D_D_L_E.

You are looking for D_R_I_V_E_L.

Tim, you might want to try Match.com/redneckbeautieswhogoforaguywhatcooks :D

Down here around Sarasota a guy who can cook for a woman can do pretty well. :)

[Frosty]

Just hold on Tim,-- Im sure someone will take you through the 3 digit barrier this evening. Sorry to hear about the chicken, I usually warm up a tin of baked beans and chuck em on top in these situations.

Or pour a VB over it. Just to put the fire out.

[timgoz]

I'm in no hurry Frosty.

Like the new avatar.

To keep with Charlies admonishment, I reckon we have to figure out what you have in the pipe?

Famous Thai "product"?

Tim

[Frosty]

Tim,-- Not a clue mate at what you mean,--'in the pipe'???Thai product???

Have you considered a new avatar, I mean what is that blue and yellow thing.

Is it a book cover?

As much as i like talking to septics ,-- and i do ,--honestly ,--no joke,-- no fibs,, I must get some beauty sleep, lots of it would be better.

So this is frosty Mc sausage muffin with egg,-- signing off.

[timgoz]

Avatar was family coat of arms.Now it is one of my sailing heros.

[Small Wally]

As I understand it, 1 hen can lay 1 egg per day.

Therefore, 100 hens can lay 100 eggs in 1 day.

So the answer is

1 day.

...but what do I know...

SW

[Frosty]

But where did the hen come from that laid the egg?

[Small Wally]

But where did the hen come from that laid the egg?

Picture this - a chicken and an egg lying in a bed. The chicken has a serene, satisfied look on its face and is smoking a cigarette, while the egg appears somewhat disappointed and annoyed.

Now you tell me, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

SW

[safewalrus]

But where did the hen come from that laid the egg?

A farm :?:

[Bergalia]

But where did the hen come from that laid the egg?


Confidentially Frosty - it was a Communist from Rhode Island USA - which is why we don't like to talk about it.....

[Frosty]

All that talk about Mugabwe earlier.---

Well would you believe it theres some big meeting here on my island in the sun and apparantly Mugabwe is here for some meeting with Asia leaders. I thought there was a load of police n stuff driving about.

Nothing goes on here without me knowing about it.

I just heard on the 1pm news 55 minutes ago that Africarn is the newest (latest) language on the planet.

[Albert Ilardi]

I understand that. But I - I would really like to have a chance to discuss what you keep telling me what I’m not discussing.”

[Wynand N]

I just heard on the 1pm news 55 minutes ago that Africarn is the newest (latest) language on the planet.

:?: :confused: :!: As a South African speaking "Afrikaans" I must admit that I have not heard of this one....BTW, in which country does one find this "Africarn" language?

[Bergalia]

....BTW, in which country does one find this "Africarn" language?


Good question Wynand. (Hi again, you seem to have been rather silent lately. Learning your 'new' language I suppose....:D )

I get the impression that 'Africarn' is another of those 'nice polite' phrases to cover a 'pidjin' language. And as far as I know Tagalog (Ta - gaa - log) is still the 'newest' adopted language on the planet (1937) to unify the several hundred seperate dialects of the Philippine nation.
However, who am I to argue with Frosty (who has his own language at times....)

[Frosty]

My two fellow and "white" enthusiasts. I tried to think very hard how to spell Africarn. As I feel deep down that you did in actuall fact understand me then I also have to say that communication and threfore "language' did occurr.

Argue not with me Berg but with the Malaysian 1pm news. I do wish you would pay attention, your a bright boy but you will day dream.

[Bergalia]

Well talking of language and euphemisms - apparently there is a 're-make' of the 'Dam Busters' being made for the US market. Now here's the 'riddle': How do they get around the name of Guy Gibson's dog ? (For the uninformed, the dog was called that 'N' word). The dog, you may recall played a major part in the closing scenes of the original film even giving his name to the 'successful mission' call-sign.
As this epic is based on fact - will the script-writers be allowed to alter history ? :rolleyes:

[Frosty]

"N" word WTF was that then.

"Nipples"???

Oh the septics Oh they do make me laugh. What was that movie "free willy"

I heard the story goes that they discovered what they had done but it was too late.

Apparantly if you make a good film and every one likes it you have to stick your hand in wet cement on the street??? Funny people the septics.

[alan white]

Well talking of language and euphemisms - apparently there is a 're-make' of the 'Dam Busters' being made for the US market. Now here's the 'riddle': How do they get around the name of Guy Gibson's dog ? (For the uninformed, the dog was called that 'N' word). The dog, you may recall played a major part in the closing scenes of the original film even giving his name to the 'successful mission' call-sign.
As this epic is based on fact - will the script-writers be allowed to alter history ? :rolleyes:

Boy, Max. You are playing fast and loose with some pretty politically incorrect terms. You can't any longer say the (you know what letter) word.
It is now the "14th letter word". Get with it.
My guess is they changed the dog's name to something acceptable like "Negrito" or "Schwarzenegger" after one of our distinguished gubernatorial movie stars.

[Frosty]

Oh Oh _-Oh Oh I get it now. A cloured gentleman. You know ive never understood this. They call themselves nigger and dog and all sorts of stuff they call us whitey and honkies, so whats the problem.

Am I a gullable Englishman?

In England we call them wogs, blacks, rag heads. I cant imagine what they would call me,--- All jolly good fun.

The Thai girls call them "choc-o-lat man" Ive never seen any one get angry about it.

[SamSam]

Good question Wynand. (Hi again, you seem to have been rather silent lately. Learning your 'new' language I suppose....:D )

I get the impression that 'Africarn' is another of those 'nice polite' phrases to cover a 'pidjin' language.

He might be trying to spell an accent. Some here say winders for windows, Canadiens say aboot for about. Blacks say nigga. You say tomatoe, I say Bloody Mary. ;)

[Bergalia]

....Am I a gullable Englishman?

Rhetoric I assume Frosty, after all it's a well-known scientifically proven fact that ALL Englishmen are gullible...why else would they drink blended whisky :D

[Bergalia]

OK - now for all you 'Good Ole Boys' Stateside: Harry S.Truman.

No googling - on your honour. What did the 'S' stand for?

[timgoz]

Stood for "S" so as not to offend either Granfather. That the best you got Berg?

[timgoz]

You did say Google, right? :) Actually knew that one.

[charmc]

Way to go Tim, holding up that Yank honor. Bergalia throws a lot of softballs, but we have to understand and humor him. Hey, aside from the new British PM, Max is the only Scotsman who ever learned to read. :P

[charmc]

Well talking of language and euphemisms - apparently there is a 're-make' of the 'Dam Busters' being made for the US market. Now here's the 'riddle': How do they get around the name of Guy Gibson's dog ? (For the uninformed, the dog was called that 'N' word). The dog, you may recall played a major part in the closing scenes of the original film even giving his name to the 'successful mission' call-sign.
As this epic is based on fact - will the script-writers be allowed to alter history ? :rolleyes:

Alter history to placate self-appointed "spokesmen" for minorities? In the US or Great Britain today? Naaah. Never happen. Historical accuracy is the most important element in any movie based on real events.

(Note: to anyone who believed the paragraph above, please PM me to discuss investments in Florida land between Naples and Miami. Mosquitoes, alligators, and other strange critters, but it's real cheap, and I'll give you a personally signed deed. :D )

[timgoz]

Max read Charlie? No way!

The female members of Max's family take turns reading the forum to him. They then translate his barely understandable Scottish (& Scotch) tainted jibberish into something we can read. Thier mum supplied all genetic material related to intelligence & general brain function. She is the real genius behind the witty & intelligent ramblings of the one we call Bergalia. :rolleyes:

Tim

[Bergalia]

Max read Charlie? No way!.. She (his wife) is the real genius behind the witty & intelligent ramblings of the one we call Bergalia. :rolleyes: Tim

No comment. However I did manage to tie the lace of my left shoe the other day without any help...even though the shoe was on the wrong foot. (Which is why I wear Wellies...Marked 'L' and 'R'.....):(

[harlemriverman]

I am busy with some course and was presented with this riddle and needs to have an answer by Friday.

...fork leads to a settlement of good people on the one side and to cannibals on the other...cannibals are big liars and deceivers...you stepped out of the plane there was a person standing at the fork junction...you can ask this unknown person only ONE question....

Which way to the canibals so that I will be eaten right away?

Canibal or good person, both will point the way. Go the opposite direction.

[Verytricky]

that statement of verytricky defies all logic. Then again the best players are the spectators in the pavilion....
I wonder if he had ever been to South Africa or Zimbabwe:?: As I stay in SA and visits old Bob's ruins for our annual fishing trip to the spectacular Zambezi river (whats left of it) since the early 70's, I had seen this once prosperous country reduced to ashes. One has to experience it to believe it.


Sigh.

Only spent 20 years there, so I dont really know much about it at all.

P.S. I thought it was only the americans that did not get ironic commentary? Aparently not?