Cuba

[longliner45]

it is enevitable that the govt will collapes,,,,so I cant wait for the key west to cuba race,,does anyone else have any thoughts of this?,,Im thinking leave the keys and race to a point and back ,,,

[marshmat]

Which government- Cuba's or America's?

I think it would be quite a good route for a short, friendly but competitive open-water race. I know if I had a boat down there I'd consider participating :)

[messabout]

There used to be such a race before the Cuban missile crisis and all that.

[longliner45]

marshmatt,,,,,thats a fifty/fifty,,:)

[ted655]

:D This would be a "innertube" rade, right? My money is on the Cubans if so.
.
Are we thinking that if it's government fall, Cuba will return to being USA's Casino/whoehouse again? Oh goodie!:P

[longliner45]

and dont underestimate thier boat building skills,,,,,,,I saw a floating truck,,1950 chevy,,,I think this will be good for boatbuilding,and sailing in general..longliner

[Vega]

Which government- Cuba's or America's?

:p :p :p :p :p :p :p

By He way, do you know why Cuba is called Cuba?

Cuba was discovered by Christopher Colombus. Is real name was Cristovão Colom and recent historic evidence proves that he was a Portuguese Jew born on Cuba, on Alentejo, Portugal. He just named the Island in memory of his hometown.

[ted655]

Ya learn sumpton ever day, yeah?
IF, I had money to burn, I would build such a (boat?) just to turn heads on the weekends.
How about a race that starts from Pensacola, around the back of Cuba & them onto St. Augustine? That would have to be a sailboat race I guess. What would a powerboat course look like?

[longliner45]

pensacola would be great,,,starting off in emerald green water with white sandy beaches,going to clear blue and then passing through the tidelines,,,then to deep blue ,probably most bueatifull race ever,longliner

[Guillermo]

By He way, do you know why Cuba is called Cuba?
Cuba was discovered by Christopher Colombus..... born on Cuba, on Alentejo, Portugal. He just named the Island in memory of his hometown.
That's not in absolute, true. Colón frst named the island as 'Cuba' in Oct 23, 1492, after noting in his diary the 21st that the natives called the island 'Colba'. Then 'Cuba or Juana' (1492, Dec 5), which he firstly thought it was a continent. In 1515 the name was changed to 'Fernandina' by King Fernando. Pedro Martir, in 1514, stated the natives called Cuba to the island. It seems the name is a contraction of the native words Coa (place), and Bana (big). United they form 'Coabana', and from there Coaba = Cuba = Big Place. It seems to be related with the mountanious regions of the island.

Another meanings for the name Cuba, depending on authors, are: "Inhabited land", "My field" or "My land". Also "My garden".

It's said Colón was a Jew, born in Pontevedra. We even have a ruin which is called the House of Colón. Alfonso Philippot Abeledo has extensively demonstrated the Pontevedrian origin of Colón in his well (and big!) documented book "The Identity of Cristóbal Colón" :P

[RANCHI OTTO]

NO....NO.....!:mad:

CRISTOFORO COLOMBO WAS BORN IN GENOVA, ITALY......HE WAS ITALIAN!:P
PLEASE VISIT IN GENOVA THE HOUSE WHERE COLOMBO WAS BORN....!!

[safewalrus]

One of the Greatest communists of all time! He lied his way to the top, discovered somewhere already discovered and did it all with somebody elses money - for what the greater glory of Cristoforo Colombo! Indeed a great man (oh yes he slaughtered most of the locals if they didn't do what he wanted)

and look what he produced, and what happened to it - still you can't be resposible for what comes after can you?

Well I guess that's my points back to the normal 40's then, appoligies to the guys who pushed 'em up - interesting to note that you guys have the guts to tell me - them as take em away......well, Jeff wouldn't like me being rude

[jbassion]

You guys eaver hear of the Cubavich? I had a chance to talk with Mike Rybovich. He told a story of two employees who worked for his father that stole all the designs for their sport fisherman and went back to Cuba and started building copies. I guess now they are building intertube rafts.

I too would be interrested in a Key West to Cuba round trip. It would be a great race.

[Guillermo]

I sailed from Cancún to Marina Hemingway in Cuba and back, with several other boats, with ocasion of a big game fishing tournament (Year 1990, if memory doesn't fail me). Nice trip.

[Guillermo]

...He lied his way to the top, discovered somewhere already discovered and did it all with somebody elses money...
A clever guy, perhaps....? :P

[Vega]

That's not in absolute, true. Colón named the island as 'Juana' (1492, Oct 31) and then 'Alfa y Omega' (Same year, Dec 5), when he thought it was a continent. Then (1525) it changed to 'Fernandina' by King Fernando. .......
It's said Colón was a Jew, born in Pontevedra. We even have a ruin which is called the House of Colón. Alfonso Philippot Abeledo has extensively defended the Pontevedrian origin of Colón in his extensive book "The Identity of Colón"

You and your absolute certainties:p :p . I have very few certainties and this one is not certainly one of the few:cool: .

But of course it is not me that have made it up that story about Cuba and its name. Mascarenhas Barreto is the one to blame. He has dedicated the last 20 years of his life studying Cristovão Colom’s origins and secret life. He is the one that says that the name of Cuba was given in honour of his hometown:


“Muitos foram os lugares descobertos por Colom ao serviço dos Reis de Espanha ….. a primeira ilha … a que deu o nome de S. Salvador … o verdadeiro nome do navegador era Salvador.
À segunda ilha deu o nome de Santa Maria da Conceição, … À terceira ilha deu o nome de Fernandina, … Colom tinha Fernandes no seu nome verdadeiro, Salvador Fernandes Zarco.
À quarta ilha chamou Isabela, que poderia ser em homenagem à Rainha Isabel a Católica mas também em homenagem a sua mãe, Isabel da Câmara. …
E à quinta ilha o nome de Juana, admite-se que em honra do Rei D. João II, mas depois, para manter o sigilo da sua missão, trocou-o por Cuba, nome da sua terra natal no Alentejo”.

A translation:

“Many were the places discovered by Colom while in the service of the king of Spain …to the first island he has given the name of S. Salvador…the Navigator’s true name was Salvador.
To the second Island he gave the name of Fernandina…Fernandes was part of the real name of Colom, Salvador Fernandes Zarco.
To the 4th Island he called Isabela, that could be homage to the Queen of Spain (Isabel) but could also be a homage to his mother, Isabel da Câmara…
To the 5th Island he gave the name Juana, probably to honor the Portuguese King (João), but then, to hide the nature of his mission, he changed it to Cuba, the name of his hometown in Alentejo”

According to Mascarenhas Barreto the Navigator was a spy at the service of the Portuguese King João II (Juana is the feminine of João and in Portuguese the word Island is feminine therefore Juana and not João) with the secret mission to drive the Spanish away from India. And if that is true, he has succeeded:p .

Of course this is a theory even if well backed up with facts and, as all theories, it can be not true, even if the proofs that I have seen about the nationality of Colombo seem to be overwhelming. However this thread is not the place to discuss it and anyway I have not any wish to discuss it with someone that has so many “absolute truths”.:rolleyes:

[Vega]

NO....NO.....!:mad:

CRISTOFORO COLOMBO WAS BORN IN GENOVA, ITALY......HE WAS ITALIAN!:P
PLEASE VISIT IN GENOVA THE HOUSE WHERE COLOMBO WAS BORN....!!

If you can read Portuguese (perhaps you can because I can read Italian) take a look at this web page:

http://amigosdacuba.no.sapo.pt/paginas/p14-cristovaocolombo.htm#CUBA,%20DESCOBERTA%20POR%20COLOM#CUBA,%20DESCOBERTA%20POR%20COLOM


According to Prof. Mascaranhas Barreto, Cristovão was a portuguese spy “planted” in the Spanish court as a Genovese to mislead Spaniards from India.

The "Genovese Columbus" was the son of a poor and uncultured man, a man that worked with lambs and wool. The "Portuguese Colon" was the son of a well known Navigator, born in a Jewish family that was also known by their cartographic skills. How could a poor and uncultured man gather the knowledge that obviously Columbus, or Colon, had?

This seems paranoiac but what we know from that time is that the Portuguese had the best information and disinformation service in the world. Today we know that the ones to whom the most important discoveries, like Brazil, were attributed, were not the ones that have been there first and we know that some of the greatest navigators were let in the shadow and his discoveries maintained in absolute secrecy by the imperative need that a small country had to control information on his behalf.


About some “errors” on the maps and the intentional general misinformation see what this contemporary Spanish Pilot, Juan Gaetan (that in Portuguese ships navigated the seas to the North of Australia) said about the Portuguese and their general disinformation tactics:

He says: "I saw … all their charts. They were all cunningly falsified, with longitudes and latitudes distorted, and land-features drawn in at places and stretched out at others to suit their purposes, ….."—[In Ramusio.]

For me, the most unknown of the Navigators and probably one of the greatest if not the greatest was Cristovão de Mendonça. This one seems to be the one to who was assigned the most extreme explorations. He has explored and made cartography of the Australian east coast, (only that map has been found and that doesn’t mean that we didn’t go further) but also it is believed that he was the one that has made maps of the “Tierra del Fogo” and Antarctica. Those discoveries were never disclosed and were maintained in absolute secrecy. We only know of them because some mysterious maps have survived. Can you imagine how many were lost?

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSSYD3449720070321

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/data/art/LUNDE02.ART

[Guillermo]

I have not any wish to discuss it with someone that has so many “absolute truths”.:rolleyes:
Thanks, my darling. I think you have learned very little on this matter, as always. Kisses :D

[Guillermo]

By the way,
Cristóbal Colón has been claimed to be: spaniard (several locations), portuguese (several locations), italian (several locations), and even polish, english and french, to my knowledge.

Only because of a matter of proximity (not scientific evidence, of course), I have some heartly affection to the theory which says Colón was from Puerto Santo, Pontevedra (1432), illegitimate son of Fernán Eanes de Soutomaior and Constanza Gonçalves Colón. It has been said this Cristóbal Colón became in 1441 Pedro Álvarez de Soutomaior, the later famous 'Pedro Madruga', Count of Caminha, a fascinating figure of those times who favoured the right to the crown of Castilla of 'Juana la Beltraneja' against her aunt Isabel (from here the name of Juana to the island of Cuba?), and saved the life of the King of Portugal Alfonso V at the 'Toro' battle.
The death of Pedro Madruga in 1486 is involved in mistery, so Philippot defends in his book he didn't die, becaming again Cristóbal Colón to hide his identity.
Somewhat crazy posssibility, but fascinating indeed.

Cheers.

[RANCHI OTTO]

Guillermo.....

let me dream....C.C. was italian...isn't?

:p

[brian eiland]

If I remember correctly there was an annual 'unoffical' race to Cube each year up till about very late 90's. Participation was pretty good till BUSH & company regulated our foreign policy with Cuba back to the stone age (pandering to votes in Florida)

I made a trip down on a 60 catamaran about 1998 for 5 weeks. They tried to keep the tourist and the populace separated as much as possible. They wanted the tourist money and investment, but sought to try and isolate their citizens to our 'bad' influence.

Biggest pain in the a-- was clearing in and out of ports....ton of paperwork and officaldom

[Vega]

let me dream....C.C. was italian...isn't?

:p

Well,you have Amerigo Vespucci. At least that one knew that America was not India:D. He was the one that first said that America was a big continent and in the company of Gaspar de Lemos explored a great deal of the American coast.


It seems to me very appropriated that the continent's name honor’s him and not Colombus. After all Eric the Red had already discovered America, some centuries before:cool: .

[RANCHI OTTO]

Amerigo V:D espucci was for sure from Portugal or Spain....

[Guillermo]

Guillermo.....

let me dream....C.C. was italian...isn't?

:p
I don't know. But they are running now some ADN tests not only to what is left from the Admiral both in Sevilla (this has been already done) and Santo Domingo (I think still waiting for permission), but also to said relatives (dead and alive) in Italy, Spain and Portugal. They'll find out.
Cheers.

[Guillermo]

Amerigo V:D espucci was for sure from Portugal or Spain....

Let's see:

"Figlio di un notaio fiorentino, nel 1489 si trasferì a Siviglia su incarico del banchiere Lorenzo di Pierfrancesco de' Medici. A Siviglia conobbe Cristoforo Colombo.

La figura di Amerigo Vespucci è molto controversa, a causa delle sue lettere la cui autenticità è stata spesso messa in discussione: la Mundus Novus ("Nuovo Mondo") e la Lettera (o "Il quarto viaggio"). Alcuni sostengono che Vespucci abbia esagerato il suo ruolo e romanzato gli avvenimenti, altri che abbia contraffatto gli originali di altri viaggiatori dell'epoca.

Le due lettere contestate parlano di quattro viaggi in America. Attualmente vi è una disputa tra alcuni illustri storici (Germán Arciniegas e Gabriel Camargo Perez) che sostengono che il primo viaggio di Vespucci sia avvenuto insieme a Juan de la Cosa nel giugno del 1497, con probabile comandante Juan Díaz de Solís, e altri che ritengono che questo viaggio non sia mai avvenuto.

1499 - 1500: Amerigo partecipò ad una spedizione guidata da Alonso de Hojeda. Nella spedizione vi era anche il cantabrico Juan de la Cosa, famoso pilota e cartografo.

Nel 1501 prese parte ad una spedizione comandata da Gonzalo Coelho. La spedizione si fermò alcuni giorni nelle isole di Capo Verde, e venne in contatto con le navi di Cabral, esploratore portoghese di ritorno dal suo viaggio in India.A Capo Verde Vespucci conobbe l'ebreo Gaspar da Gama che gli descrisse i popoli, la fauna e la vegetazione dell'India. Comparando questo racconto con quello che lui aveva osservato nel Nuovo Mondo, si convinse ancor di più che le terre da lui visitate non potevano fare parte dell'Asia. La spedizione, si spinse più a sud fino alla latitudine 52 sud.

Fu la rapida diffusione delle lettere circolate a suo nome che indusse il cartografo Martin Waldseemüller a usare il genere femminile (America) del suo nome latinizzato (Americus Vespucius), per indicare il nuovo continente in una carta del mondo disegnata nel 1507, contenuta nella Cosmographiae Introductio. L'idea di Waldseemüller era che l'appellativo si riferisse all'attuale America meridionale, cioè alle terre toccate da Vespucci.

Amerigo Vespucci fu nominato, nel 1508, "Piloto Mayor de Castilla", dal re Ferdinando II di Aragona. Questo titolo era importante perché era il responsabile di organizzare le spedizioni nelle nuove terre e di formare piloti e cartografi, insegnando loro l'uso del quadrante e dell'astrolabio.

Vespucci morì nel 1512 a Siviglia, in Andalusia. Non ebbe discendenza, ma lasciò i suoi beni alla moglie, l'andalusa Maria Cerezo"

So I'd say our controversial friend Amerigo was rather spaniard, or even portuguese, than italian....:D
(P.S.: ...and America was a name initially conceived for South America, not all of the continent. Speaking with precision, he discovered nothing, in my opinion. Discoveries were done by the spaniards and the portuguese, acting him only as navigator and cartographer. But the continent was finally called America. Lucky guy)

[charmc]

I'd have to go back to the sources to cite the details, but my recollection from student days is that Amerigo Vespucci accompanied several expeditions to the continents now known as North and South America, in a minor capacity. However, in later years he wrote an account of his travels, naming the continents after himself for his supposed "first sighting". The name stuck because he was a good promoter, better promoter than his contemporaries, who were explorers.

So not much has changed in the world. The promoters, rather than the doers, get the recognition. :rolleyes:

[charmc]

If indeed Cristoforo Colon was a Portugese agent whose mission was to prevent Spain from establishing strongholds and influence in India, then he was the most successful secret agent in history! :D :D :P :P

[RANCHI OTTO]

Thanks Guillermo for the infos...I love history and you gave me a lot of informations!:p

[Guillermo]

If indeed Cristoforo Colon was a Portugese agent whose mission was to prevent Spain from establishing strongholds and influence in India, then he was the most successful secret agent in history! :D :D :P :P
No, no, no! Christophorus Columbus was in fact a double agent of the Great Khan of Cipango, who didn't want more ***** occidentals trying to steal his spicies and to copulate like pigs with his harem! So he sent Chin-to-fo-lus Col-um-Bush :) to lay a continent in the middle of the way and then 'discovering' it, creating at the same time a bloody confusion lasting till our times. A genius, the man...:cool:

[safewalrus]

Arh Guillermo at last the truth about the Great man, were you hiding it thinking we would not find out? and is it not true also that you descend from the mighty 'chinnee' which is why you have such a font of knowledge? (in this case most of it a piss take but never the less taken well because it indicates that pehaps you may, just may, be developing an Englishmans sense of humour........Now change your name to Drake and we'll get started - or are you claiming that the Great Dragon was a son of one don C.C. I guess if you called him dragon there may be some truth in it!!

ain't history grande

Mike

[Guillermo]

that pehaps you may, just may, be developing an Englishmans sense of humour.....
There are british members of the Gefaell family in the UK, since a couple of hundreds of years ago. Maybe some influence here....? :D

[safewalrus]

A misquote here methinks (from Bram Stokers Dracula)

"by God I have created a monster!!":D :D :D :D

[charmc]

and is it not true also that you descend from the mighty 'chinnee' which is why you have such a font of knowledge? pehaps you may, just may, be developing an Englishmans sense of humour........ Mike

Hmmmm, so it could be that, like his supposed countryman half a millenium ago, Guillermo is a secret Chinese agent, sent to stifle the highly constructive debate amongst foreign devils, on multitudinous worldshaking issues on boat design forums, by introducing truckloads of dry, indisputable facts. But he has been subverted by our foreign devil quirky humor (dammit, there's only one "u" in humor, Mike!), and he now lapses into joking with the foreign devil Westerners. Even worse, he now buys and rents houses on little-known islands all over the Western Ocean. :D :D

[safewalrus]

Charlie whilst I have a lot of time for my american cousins (I was actually made an honourable or was it horrible? yank some time back on this forum - I suspect it was to shut me up?! eh Longliner? but it didn't work!) you still can't spell worth a damn - theres as many 'u's in huumouur as you want, as long as it makes 'ee laff'

Mike

[Guillermo]

Hmmmm, so it could be that, like his supposed countryman half a millenium ago, Guillermo is a secret Chinese agent, sent to stifle the highly constructive debate amongst foreign devils, on multitudinous worldshaking issues on boat design forums, by introducing truckloads of dry, indisputable facts. But he has been subverted by our foreign devil quirky humor (dammit, there's only one "u" in humor, Mike!), and he now lapses into joking with the foreign devil Westerners. Even worse, he now buys and rents houses on little-known islands all over the Western Ocean. :D :D
You're a wise guy, charmy... You got me! ;)

[charmc]

Charlie whilst I have a lot of time for my american cousins you still can't spell worth a damn - theres as many 'u's in huumouur as you want, as long as it makes 'ee laff' Mike

Brit vs Yank spelling is one of those subjects best discussed over some fine liquids brewed from hops. In such a setting the discussion may be long, agreement never reached ... but who cares? :D :D

[Vega]

I'd have to go back to the sources to cite the details, but my recollection from student days is that Amerigo Vespucci accompanied several expeditions to the continents now known as North and South America, in a minor capacity. ….

. :rolleyes:

Humm, the Spanish Sea captains in the XV century, beginning of XVI were not very good, but Spanish were not stupid. Their political skills would turn them in one of the most powerful nations in the next century.

So, if they were not stupid why should they choose to put a foreigner and a minor sea captain as “Piloto mayor de España, a title corresponding to the modern one of head of the admiralty, and which was borne by Vespucci until his death"?????????.

It is obviuos that Amerigo was far better than any other Spanish Captain and clear that this was no minor sea captain, but the best Spain could find for the job.

On the expeditions he has participated he has the Captain of his own boat and the only reason he was not leading, was because he was not Spanish, neither Portuguese.

He was the one that first said that America was not India, but a great continent and had said that with the knowledge he had adquired in his voyages and with his outsatanding cartogtapher and navigation skill.

Minor sea Captain?

Take a look:

“ Having obtained three ships from Ferdinand, King of Castille, Vespucci was able to undertake his first voyage. Accordingly, he set sail from Cadiz on 10 May, 1497, sailing toward the Fortunate Islands, and then laying his course towards the west. After twenty-seven or thirty-seven days, on 6 or 10 April, he touched the mainland (Guiana or Brazil?), and was well received by the inhabitants.

In this first voyage he may have entered the Gulf of Mexico and coasted along a great portion of the United States, as far as the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Then he returned to Spain, and landed at Cadiz on 15 October, 1498. ….

On 16 May, 1499, Vespucci sailed from Cadiz on his second voyage, with Alonzo de Ojeda and Juan de la Cosa. He directed his course to Cape Verde, crossed the Equator, and saw land, on the coast of Brazil, at 4° or 5° S., possibly near Aracati. From there, he coasted along the Guianas and the continent, from the Gulf of Paria to Maracaibo and Cape de la Vela; he discovered Cape St. Augustine and the River Amazon, and made notable observations of the sea currents, of the Southern Cross and other southern constellations.

There two expeditions were undertaken in the service of Spain; the third and the fourth, in that of Portugal.

On 14 May, 1501, he sailed from Lisbon to Cape Verde, and thence westward, until, on 1 January, 1502, he came to a gulf at 13° S., to which he gave the name of Bahia de Todos Santos, and upon the shores of which the city of Bahia now stands. From there he coasted along South America, as far as the Plata. On his return, he discovered the island of South Georgia, at 54° S., and 1200 miles east of Tierra del Fuego. He arrived at Lisbon on 7 September, 1502.

On his fourth voyage, he sailed with Gonzal Coelho from Lisbon, on 10 June, 1503, touched land at the Cape Verde Islands, and bent his course towards the Bay of All Saints. At Cape Frio, having found great quantities of brazil-wood, he established an agency, exactly on the Tropic of Capricorn. Thereafter, he coasted along the continent, nearly to the Rio de la Plata, and then returned to Lisbon, where he arrived on 18 June, 1504.

Vespucci made a fifth voyage with Juan de la Cosa, between May and December, 1505; they visited the Gulf of Darien, and sailed 200 miles up the Atrato River. .

The facts regarding the voyages of Vespucci are accepted as given in the above narrative by the majority of the authoritative biographers of that navigator; but the inexactness of the printed texts, the difficulty of identifying the names of places, used by Vespucci, with the modern ones, and the error of attributing sincerity to all assertions contained in official documents, especially in those relating to legal proceedings, have given rise to enormous confusion in all that relates to the voyages of Amerigo Vespucci, of which the chief base for future criticism will be the investigation of the apocryphal codices of the narratives of the voyages of Vespucci, written at the time when the authentic ones appeared.

Vespucci was certainly held in high esteem in Spain, where he established himself after his voyages in the service of Portugal. In 1505, by a royal decree of 14 April of that year, he had received Spanish naturalization, and a decree of 6 August, 1508, named him piloto mayor de España, a title corresponding to the modern one of head of the admiralty, and which was borne by Vespucci until his death.
……
It is impossible to determine, here, the place of Amerigo Vespucci in the history of the discovery of the New World, in relation to those of Christopher Columbus, …... First it is necessary to distinguish between the geographical, and the social, discovery of America. The former is due to the Icelanders, who established, on the eastern coast of Greenland, a colony that was maintained from the tenth to the fifteenth century, of the history of which a very good compendium is given by Fischer in "The Discoveries of the Norsemen in America" (London, 1902); in connection with this work there should be consulted the collection of documents concerning the relations of the Church of Rome with Greenland during these centuries, published by order of Leo XIII. "

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15384b.htm

As I have said, geographically, he has the first to point correctly that America was not India, but a great continent and as it was pointed out, America has been discovered already by the Vikings centuries before Colombo arrived there.

So, in my opinion, America is a well chosen name.

[longliner45]

the spanish sea captains ,,,,at the time were smart,,,,,,,,so they had to outsource the job,,because at that time ,,,,,,the world was flat,and you would fall off the edge ,,,,,,,,,longliner

[artemis]

the spanish sea captains ,,,,at the time were smart,,,,,,,,so they had to outsource the job,,because at that time ,,,,,,the world was flat,and you would fall off the edge ,,,,,,,,,longliner

Ah yes, outsourcing. And C.C., being from Genoa, was certainly a good choice. After all, Genoa is much closer to Greece than Spain and it was well known that the Greeks had demonstrated the world was round over 2000 years before. :P

[Guillermo]

..... and a decree of 6 August, 1508, named him piloto mayor de España, a title corresponding to the modern one of head of the admiralty
King Fernando named him 'Piloto Mayor de España' a position hierarchically dependant of the 'Casa de Contratación' in Seville, so not the head of the Admiralty. His mission was to teach navigation (particularly the use of the quadrant and the astrolabius, which many spanish pilots didn't know), cosmography and piloting, at the recently created pilots school in town. He has also the responsibility of the cartographic and hydrographic registers, being a mayor task the keeping of the 'Padrón Real', the map of the new discoveries.

Many of the voyages of Americo Vespúcio (as he is known in Spain), are little or no documented at all and are motive of historical controversy. Some of them seem to be, with a high probability, total inventions. Depending on authors he may have done between two and six voyages. In general he doesn't seem to be very well considered among historians.

Just an example:
The matematician and astronomer Duarte Leite in his work 'Descobridores do Brasil' expresses an opinion particularly despective:

"This vain character is no more than a liar novelist, as good a pilot as many others, cosmographer repeating others' ideas, false discoverer who appropriated the glory belonging to others. In spite of all this, he managed to impress generations of cultivated men who maked enormous efforts trying to interprete his fantasies and give sense to his nonsense"

For those of you reading spanish: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C3%A9rico_Vespucio

[safewalrus]

Wheras Mrrs Drake, Frobisher and others were to busy stealing anything that move to be bothered about naming places etc. but the English (and their Dutch and occasionally Portugese allies) probably did more exploring than the rest of the Med put together - they had to to stay away from rather upset Spaniards who in those days (Guillermo is now taking the Spanish Nation further by developing a sense of humour!!) just couldn't see the fun in 'borrowing' gold and stuff from their coffers;)

[Vega]

Many of the voyages of Americo Vespúcio (as he is known in Spain), are ... motive of historical controversy. ... In general he doesn't seem to be very well considered among historians.

Just an example:
The matematician and astronomer Duarte Leite in his work 'Descobridores do Brasil' expresses an opinion particularly despective:

"This vain character is no more than a liar novelist, as good a pilot as many others, cosmographer repeating others' ideas, false discoverer who appropriated the glory belonging to others. In spite of all this, he managed to impress generations of cultivated men who maked enormous efforts trying to interprete his fantasies and give sense to his nonsense"


My God:D

Duarte Leite was born in 1864, he was a mathematician and mainly a Politician. He was prime minister of Portugal in the first years of the Republic.

That work you talk about is the work of someone who is a Patriot in a very difficult period of our history and didn’t have any background on History. It is a Patriotic work and as Americo Vespucio was Italian he tries to take away all his credit.

Modern (and real) historians from Portugal and Brazil (and elsewhere) recognize the vast importance of Americo Vespucio as one of the Great Navigators and probably, between the navigators, the best Cartographer. (In my opinion miles away from Colombo who needed many years to found out where he was).


This discussion is so ridiculous (about the importance of Americo Vespucio) that I refuse to continue. I will only say that everybody knows that the first Map where the coast of South America was drawn was the Cantino Map, (1502) an Italian Map. Guess who has provided the information for it?

By the way, are there no Italians on this forum?

"Imago Mundi is the only English-language scholarly periodical devoted exclusively to the history of pre-modern maps, mapping, and map-related ideas from anywhere in the world. It was founded in Berlin in 1935 ..... Since 1977 each volume has contained a full complement of scholarly aids in the form of book reviews, bibliography, and chronicles, all of which have made Imago Mundi a valuable journal of record as well as scholarship".
http://links.jstor.org/journals/03085694.html

This is a link to Imago Mundi’s "new" article about Amerigo Vespuci and the origins of that “confusion”. It leaves no doubt about the hard data (maps) that prove his more controversial voyage, the third, when he sailed south, as far away as Patagonia.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0308-5694%281954%2911%3C37%3ANLOVTV%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage



About Cristovão Colom (Christopher Columbus) there are big news:

A Spanish scientist has collected COLOM’s ADN and has been in Portugal to collect the ADN of the families who claim to be of his blood. Results will come in 6 months.

[safewalrus]

It certainly would appear that the Americas are well named then!!

After a no good con artist and a dreamer who misapropriated everything he laid his hands on for his own uses!!

I would like to be a fly on the wall when you tell that to our American cousins (from all American Nations not just the US of A):D

[Guillermo]

...This discussion is so ridiculous (about the importance of Americo Vespucio) that I refuse to continue....
Then, why do you continue it at all....? :P :P :P

[artemis]

It certainly would appear that the Americas are well named then!!

After a no good con artist and a dreamer who misapropriated everything he laid his hands on for his own uses!!

I would like to be a fly on the wall when you tell that to our American cousins (from all American Nations not just the US of A):D

We sucked our ma's teat real well! :P

[Vega]

I have found a big image of the Cantino Map (12Mb).
It is very interesting. Go to the link and to the map picture. Below the picture, click on full resolution.

Take a look at The Iberia Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) and look at the banners. Those banners are all over the map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CantinoPlanisphere.png