Can wooden boats survive in dry climates?

[cdianes]

I have inherited my grandparent's 1956 16ft, wooden, lake/fishing boat. It was made by Shell Lake Boat Company in Wisconsin.
It is made of Western Red Cedar strips with oak ribs. The interior is varnished and the exterior has oil based house paint. The boat has always been stored covered, on its trailer in Seattle, Washington. After years of storage, water is put in the bottom, and after a few days the cedar swells and it becomes water tight. So the boat is used to expansion and contraction.
However, I must now choose between finding a new owner for it (which I don't want to do), or moving the boat to New Mexico where I live. I am very concerned that moving the boat from the humid Seattle, WA climate to the very dry New Mexico climate (sometimes 6% humidity), that I will destroy the boat. Does anyone have any practical experience with this? Will I destory the boat if I bring it to New Mexico?
thankyou!

[charmc]

Welcome to the forum, cdianes.

In general, the dry climate will preserve, rather than destroy, the boat. UV rays will age coatings prematurely, so avoid storing in sunlight. So-called "dry rot" is a misnomer; moisture is the enemy of wood. Mold will not grow in low humidity. I think you're referring to the extra drying effect. That is true, but needing longer soak time is not a problem, just a different condition, IMHO.

[alan white]

When you say cedar strips, what exactly do you mean? There are strip-built boats, and they are made with parallel-sided strips of wood, each strip nailed to the last one, and there are planked boats, which are spiled (each plank is shaped individually).
Although your boat may be strip-built, such a method would have been the exception to the rule back in the fifties, though not unheard of. Mount Desert Island boat company built the Contoversy (note the name) series that way. They were larger boats and the hulls were edge-nailed and glued.
Knowing what your build method is would be helpful in providing the best advice for keeping the hull sound.
Charlie's right that there's no big worry moving the boat to a dry area. Knowing how it's constructed, there are ways to keep the boat from drying out too much (too much depending on fasteners, which don't shrink or expand, which nevertheless are buried in wood that does move). Rapidly drying or unevenly drying wood isn't good, nor is excessive drying good, primarily because the fasteners resist.
Cedar, of all woods, is known for its amazing ability to resist damage from compression (wet) cycles. That is to say, every time planking, etc., expands and contracts, it reaches a point where expansion is resisted and yet the forces of expansion are still acting internally, in effect micro-crushing the cellular structure. Then upon shrinking again, the wood is ever so slightly narrower than before. Cedar, however, accepts this cyclical pressure without much crushing.


Alan

[PAR]

Storage is a matter of the usual suspects, ventilation, dryness and keeping it clean.

Strip planking has been around a long time, the modern variants include glue with the edge fasteners, but older methods used just a sealer (shellac, lead, etc.) which required a wood that took to moisture content changes well, like most of the cedars.

Keep it dry, don't let moisture collect in the lower areas of the boat, have plenty of ventilation (use a box fan with a thermostat if necessary, to stave off condensation accumulation) and the boat needs to remain clean, particularly where moisture may collect.

Currently, I have a buddy storing his 1959 Chris Craft in my yard. I have a tent over it, which keeps the sun and rain off of it and a 30" box fan in the cockpit. The sole is removed and all cabinets are open. The box fan is wired to an attic vent fan thermostat and a timer. In the morning hours, condensation collects on the underside of the decks and the hull sides (inside), as a result of the rapid change from night time temperatures to sun warmed temperatures (in the desert this will be much worse) in the first part of the day. The fan doesn't need to run 24-7, just before, during and a little after the rapid temperature changes (dawn and dusk). This evaporates the moisture before it can get anywhere and doesn't permit any still air to remain in the boat for very long.

[cdianes]

Alan, I have the 1957 catalog & bill of sale to my grandparents. Here is the description of strip construction from the catalog.
""Sstrips of select, dry material fastened together to form a smooth, continuous wall with no overlaps or protrusions. This is why Shell Lake Boats are lighter, stronger easier to clean, more water-tight & much easier to handle in the water.
The strips are 1/2 inch thick by 1 1/8" wide.Before assembling, they run each strip through a shaping machine to round one edge & to hollow the other. Next, the strips are run through a glue spreader, where a stream of Sealer "900" covers the hollowed edge of each strip--full length. Pin holdes are drilled by machiens at four inch intervals & staggered so that all but the gunwales & keel strips fastened every two inches. The strips are then nailed togehter edgeways through the pin holes. A Sturdy, leak resistant hull is assured by the shape of the strips, the stream of sealer between each strip, & the careful way the strips are nailed together. Spaced close togehter, oak ribs are securely fastened to the strip hull iwth rust-proof screws."
The weakest link would seem to be the Sealer "900". Here is what the catalog says about it.
"Recently developed & a concern of national prominence, Sealer "900" applied between every strip is similar to rubber cement. It's elastic and never becomes completely hard.Bonded to each strip, it makes a water-tight seal which protects the boat against leaking, whether in the water, or left out of the water to dry out. Wehn the boat is again placed in the water, the strips expand, press togher the Sealer "900" and regain their original position without buciling. The lifetime of the Sealer "900" is indefinite."
Perhaps what I should be really concerned about it the age of the Sealer "900" & what 6% humidity would do to it. The boat has not been in the water for over 10 years, so I don't know if it is still watertight. Will let you know in 2-3 weeks, I guess I'm going to drive to Seattle & bring it down here.
ds

[alan white]

So many people ask questions here, using the wrong terminology, and I wanted to make sure you really had strip construction. Bead and cove strips is what you've got, a method that is still very popular.
Paint equally both inside and out, and I am sure you'll be fine.
Strip planking is an old methid, but most boats of that vintage and type were batten-seam construction, or ply, just before fiberglass made production wood-built boats practically obsolete.
The fasteners used in strip building are small enough to maintain a grip on the wood, their lengthwise travel being small.
Use the advice given to dehumidify and air the boat (under cover, with big air spaces, well painted and/or varnished inside and out---- your boat should last a very long time.
Got any pictures?

[PAR]

The "900" goo is likely polyurethane, possibly polysulfide (possably a 3M product), both were relatively new goos at the time. Polyurethane was more prominently used in the industry. The only real way of knowing how well the sealant has held up is exposing a seam or two. Maybe some has oozed out some place, like near the stem or transom framing, where cleaning any squeeze out up would have been more difficult. It should still be pliable if you can get at it. Unless exposed to UV for a long time, the stuff will last for many decades.

[charmc]

At least one Sealer 900 is a 3M product. 3M recommends it now for sealing flashing, ducts, and other "on land but in the weather" applications. Wes Farmer, a designer of wooden boats, mentions it as a good sealant. He can be reached through duckworksmagazine.com. 3M's website mentions 5200 as their recommended "lifetime" permanent sealer for marine use. If you do a search on the terms wood or wooden boats or classic boats, you'll likely find some folks with experience with sealers.

[ShellLakeScamp]

I am new to the forum. I am attempting to locate a Shell Lake boat. Through various internet searches I found myself here. I am trying to find out if "cdianes" still has the boat as I found her listing on a website with the boat for sale. Tried contacting through the e-mail address provided, but message was undeliverable.
I am wondering if it is still for sale and what the price would be.
Also, I am always interested in anything related to Shell Lake Boat Company.

[cdianes]

I have got the boat and am just getting ready to start restoring it. I have it upside down in my horse barn aisleway, so I have to get this project done before August when my year's supply of hay arrives. I have a few pictures, and will try to figure out how to post them.

[cdianes]

Photos before I start sanding. I'll read some of the other forums, but what do I fill these cracks with?

[PAR]

That looks to be a traditional strip planked hull. You wouldn't fill the seams with anything, they're glued and probably edge nailed as well as screwed the the frames. It's possible they used a sealant instead of glue. If this is the case, more sealant after cleaning the seams can help. Poke the seam goo with a scratch awl. If it's hard, it's glue, if it's soft, it's a sealant.

Look for signs of leaking, which would suggest the adhesive and/or fasteners have failed in spots. If none, they she's just dried out, which is normal. If you put anything in the seams, they'll just spit it out when she's launched again and the planks swell up.

Scrape her down to good paint and expose a few fasteners. The garboards and turn of the bilge planks would be the places I'd want to look for loose fasteners, as here will be the first ones to start. Test the tightness of the fasteners. If any are loose, then expose more, but usually if some are, all should be suspect.

If you keep her covered, ventilated and maybe even moist with a garden dribbler hose, those seams will probably close right up. After a long lay up on the hard, this is a common situation. Your New Mexico environment will make it worse, but all she probably needs is to be floated.

[Landlubber]

Basically all the advice above is relevant, however one more thong to add. Do NOT put water into the boat when you want to use it , to swell up the planks.

Instead, sink the boat for a day or two, bail it out and she is ready to go. Boats are designed to keep water out, not in, so the loads of water in the boat on the ghard are not natural. keep her absolutely DRY until use, often overnight is enough.

[PAR]

Do not sink the boat. This is an old school trick that no longer is valid and is only suitable for very small, easily carried craft of specific build type. It's hard to believe people still recommend this practice. It's ruined a lot of boats over the generations.

The build method on this boat requires the moisture be on the outside only, not inside. You don't want the frames, floors, stringers, etc. swelling more then they need to, just the planking.

[gonzo]

I've been succesful swelling planking with a sprinkler. I move it around under the boat and on the sides while the boat is tarped over to the ground

[Landlubber]

"is only suitable for very small, easily carried craft "

this is a little boat, it is a dinghy mate, sink the bastard, it will NOT damage it at all. It is not an old school trick for nothing....it is and has survived for centuries BECAUSE IT WORKS.

[PAR]

Lubber, it does swell the planks, but it also swells everything inside the boat, most of which have especially tight joints, not intended to be water soaked. You just stretch fasteners, test glue lines, etc. The only boats this works on is open carvels and they suffer a shorter life span as a result too. This isn't opinion, it's well documented, even Chapelle wrote about the "arcane" dunking of boats (50 years ago) as being the easiest way to shorten it's life.

Gonzo's got it right, I use a garden sprinkler too.

[Landlubber]

PAR,

I was born on the water and we did this process to the river rowing dingies for decades mate, and the boats today are as good as they were built then, they were built in the 50's. I still see them out for use today, so I wonder about the "arcane" dunkings...the ribs in these boats are tiny, they are all doublers and expand very little in fact at all. The bioats I see are clinkers and carvels, both have not been refastened as yet, nor do they seem to need so either.

I bow to your superior knowkedge humbly mate, it is with great respect that I will believe you as your comments to date have been exceptional on many subjects, it just troubles me that my observations, they are correct, maybe it is a local condition i am observing and not the overall position.

Thanks, John.

[PAR]

Chapelle used the term "arcane" in his boat building book, not I.

I know there are many success stories, and many people swear by this method, but as a rule, it's not a thing that is more successful then it's not. Again, in the small open boats you refer, little damage will be done. This is because these build methods use moisture gain to swell the planks shut and the open, simple nature of these craft, leave little to be damaged.

The boat above doesn't need to swell and in fact has glued seams, making a homogenous and continuous hull shell. The last thing you want is those hardwood frames to swell up against those softwood planks. It'll just test the pull out strength of all the plank to frame fasteners, as the hardwood grows at a much higher rate then the softwood.

We're probably on the same page John. I've found we agree a lot more then we don't. I just have trouble soaking an edge glued boat.

[cdianes]

I know the boat leaks very badly. Around 15 years ago, we used it and it was watertight. Around 10 years ago, we tried to use it and it leaked liked crazy. To take the boat from dry storage to water tight, the method my grandaprents used for 40 yrs & I presume recommended by the factory, & that I used, was to put some water in the bottom of boat and let soak for a week or so. If the boat never swells to hold water in, it sure won't hold it out.
I have sanded down, and have found two instances of dry rot under the keel about 2 inches long and 1/2 wide. Also a four places where the filling in nail holes was loose and when I dug that out a little dry rot around that. So, I need to fill, or replace the wood in those places. There is no indication of any loose fasterners. Since the water appeared to continue to leak out from everywhere, it would seem to me the Sealer 900 has failed...(it is 52 yrs old!!). During manufacture it was applied in the tongue and groove before the planks were put together. Since we can't do that, I need to find out if a hypodermic needle application along all the planks on the outside would make sense. It is so dry here, the wood has contracted to the point I can get a fingernail between the planks & perhaps more sealant there would do the trick.
I am just now attempting to contact Wes Farmer on duckworksmagazine.com as suggested in an earlier post regarding 3M Sealer 900 or 5200.

[PAR]

This will be the last time I say it, you can believe me or cut open a seam and have a look for yourself. You do not sink or flood a strip built boat, period. This is not a construction type that tolerates this well. Now you can leave it in the shallows and let the tide "have it's way" for a few days, but this is customary when the boat is in need of repair. This is far different then sinking or flooding.

This is classic, traditional strip construction, cove and bead edged, mechanically fastened and sealed with what is described as polyurethane or polysulfide. Under normal circumstances, this construction method produces perfectly dry boats. They don't need a "take up" period. If they do you have issues, which will not be fixed with swollen wood or wetted down seams, for very long, as you have already discovered.

If it's leaking you have damage or fastener looseness or sealant failure or a combination of all of these, which is most probable. Injecting goo into the seams means you'll be squirting more goo on top of shot goo and contaminated seams. How well do you think this is actually going to work out for you? I'm not trying to me coy, but it seems fairly obvious you need to pull the planking off the boat, clean out those seams, restore fastener holes, replace worn out fasteners and reassemble, with new seam sealant, fasteners and possibly a few new and/or repaired planks as well, all the while being grateful of the half of century of service this structure has offered.

[Landlubber]

PAR, You are right, I am sorry I had not read correctly the text, just jumped in "mouth wide open".....strip built and glued.....glued.....is certainly not for sinking to swell planks.

Sorry to anyone that I gave incorrect information to. However, non glued planks respond well as I described previously, glued planks should NOT be water swollen as you say.

[apex1]

Thats the trouble with this bastard Lubs, in the end Paul is right and we stand corrected, when it comes to boat repair skills.:D

[Landlubber]

apex1,

Yeah, pays to read the text correctly though eh......once again.....