White Oak-Red Oak?

[Winingar]

Hello All,

I'm preparing to build a 21' wooden runabout and was wondering if you guys could help me out to understand the difference between using White Oak instead of Red Oak to build the frame.

I understand that White Oak is recomended for marine use over Red Oak, but would there be any major difference in using Red Oak for the framing?

Thank You.

[timgoz]

Welcome. Plain & simple, White Oak is a superiour framing material. Others with specific expertise will chime in I am certain. A basic wood properties table would be informative.

Let me guess, you got a nice supply of Red Oak? :(

Good luck & once again, welcome.

Tim

[PAR]

Red Oak can be used in applications where it will remain well soaked. Typically, successful uses include deadwood assemblies on substantial craft that are moored or berth continuously in salt water.

This said, red oak is a weaker, much less rot resistant, species of oak and it has limited use as a structural element within the vessel. Framing pieces that have contact with sweet water, will rot very quickly.

On a trailered boat, where it will remain well ventilated, clean, dry and covered when not in use, red oak can be used to advantage. Encapsulated, it will survive much longer (as will any wood).

As a rule I recommend red oak not be used, except as trim or interior furniture. The ease at which it rots, the weight penalty for it's given strength and very porous nature make it less forgiving as a structural element material, without exceptional care. Since most don't care for their boats as they really should in this modern age, the more rot resistant materials are often a better choice, surviving neglect longer before repairs.

[Winingar]

Thank You Tim.

Well, actually I can get either White or Red, it's just Red is easily more available and also less expensive.

I just want to understand why White is more superior to Red.

I have been a cabinet builder for almost 15 years and have worked with almost every type but boat building has taken me back to square one.

I have used Red Oak for many years in quite a few different areas, all of which I understand have no relation to boats.

I am just wondering if it's due to rot, or strength, or application of finishes.

Would using Red Oak in the framing cause failure of some level?

Thanks again.

[timgoz]

PAR addressed all above.
Take care sir.

Tim

[PAR]

From a technical stand point there are two basic types of oaks the reds and the whites. There are some interesting off shoots, like the so called evergreen oaks. They're not, they just drop their leaves and sprout new ones, in a few weeks during late winter or early spring, making them appear evergreen. Some of these are superior to traditional white oak.

The whites are denser, stronger and more rot resistant then the reds. The physical structure of the reds cause them to be very porous, which isn't good on a boat, nor helpful at resisting rot. A 1/4" square by 12' long section of red oak, if placed in a container of water, will produce bubbles if you blow on the end like a soda straw. This is a function of it's fiber orientation and causes it to "wick" moisture throughout the piece.

As far as boat builders are concerned, it's the rot issue and partly the weight. If you're going to use a particularly dense hardwood, you'd like to get the strength of similar weight hardwoods, of which the reds suffer slightly. If it's weaker and rot prone, most just select a better suited species. I hope this helped, Good Luck . . .

[Winingar]

Thank you Par, your insight is appreciated.

So then, White Oak it is...

Now then, where can I buy it? I've called all my local lumber yards today and in fact White Oak is an ordered product.

How will I know if it's the correct species of White Oak?

[alan white]

I agree about white oak being better. The cost difference isn't very great either. !'m paying about a dollar more per foot here.
By the way, white oak, when quarter sawn, had many more medullary rays than red oak. All that tiger stripe oak furniture from 100 years ago was white oak. In that aspect, it is a far better looking wood too.

Alan

[longliner45]

it will be hard to work with ,,but barn beams are white oak,,,kinda plentifull now but getting scarce,,,,longliner

[PAR]

In Oklahoma, you may have an easier time finding live oak, which is superior to white in many regards. Try www.woodfinder.com to see who has the stuff you need locally. Live oak has an interlocking grain which resists splitting much better. It's also denser and slightly stronger. This wood is the reason the USS Constitution got it name of "Old Iron Sides" and it is the densest of all the North American hardwoods. It will still cause difficulty when machined, like all oaks, tending to chip along internal stress lines, but live is better (interlocking grain thingie) in this regard. Both white and live oak will be well suited to framing stock.

[longliner45]

paul ,not disagreeing ,,but I have never seen a live oak with enough staight line to make a keelson or keel ,they all look kinda crooked ,,am I wrong,,,,,longliner

[alan white]

All that said, red oak is available practically everywhere. I wouldn't hesitate to use it where it was high enough to stay dry most all of the time--- deck frames, sheer clamp, hanging and other knees, etc..
There is a point where practicalities enter into things. There are so many ways to protect wood these days, and a lot more attention to detail, and boats are babied a lot too. Standing water in the bilge used to be common, but today it is not. Bailing and pumping used to be the way of things, along with quick and dirty repairs using galvanized fasteners, tar, and a bucket full of creosote or pine tar thrown in for good measure.
A coating of epoxy is especially effective on wood having occasional wet conditions. Rot starts when there is a means to hold water for an extended period. Bilge water might come and go, but if there is no absorbant surface to hold it, rot doesn't have a chance.
Ventilation is your best maintainence. If air can carry moisture away, even untreated wood will do okay. Savvy designers recommend ceiling planks to create air chimmneys between frames that pull air into the top of the shady side, down under the sole, and up the sunny side. This is a solar pump of the simplest kind.

[alan white]

A few boatbuilders use red oak and get big money for their work. The Pulsifer Hampton is one example, but there are others. I'm not saying it's as good as white oak at all. But there is a point where common sense dictates that true elegance in any pursuit is the achievement of perfect balance of design, materials, and budget, because after all, titanium hulls are expensive, Honduras mahogany, teak, copper-plated bottoms, heavy bronze hardware, all monel fasteners, copper water tanks, sitka spruce spars, two-part paint, and other such niceties are hardly affordable to everyone.
It might be that red oak is readily obtainable where white oak isn't. I would say the better one-off builder is the one who most efficiently produces the best product for the money. What's wrong these days is that marine suppliers have become boutiques for people with too much money and the average shmuck is relegated to playing that game even though it's costing him all he's got.
I've played that game, and I'm afraid I've got to side with Dynamite Payson. He would use red oak and he's built hundreds of boats. Or Alton Wallace (I think that was his name) who built hundreds of west-pointer skiffs (strip-planked pine on red oak frames). Generations fished from those boats. I visited him years ago, still out on west point, in his early eighties, still building boats--- outside. His helper was maybe in his sixties. You can't get one of his boats any more nor anything close. He died a few years back, and copies of his boat are quite sanitary and properly built, and ten times as much money too, and fishermen in Phippsburg now buy fiberglass skiffs, and wealthy people buy the Wallace copies.
I did ask Wallace about the red oak he used, by the way. He just gave me a funny look.

[PAR]

I have two live oaks I felled last year from my front yard. They threatened the house (which is how I convinced her) and now are in a solar kiln after quartering. The trunk, at just above the bell is 24" on one and 19" on the other. The 24" one is 26', dead bang straight until the "crotch" and the other is just short of 20' with a slight bend (about 8") across it's length (no bells included). They were originally in a very tight stand, which is why they are so straight. If left in a clearing, they'll branch out at first opportunity, but if tightly packed they'll all fight for sunlight and reach for the sky trying to find some.

[longliner45]

gootcha good on that paul ,,the ones I noticed were in south carolina,,in peoples yards,,but they were large,,,,like the magnolias of tidewater va ,,have a good one,,,, longliner

[Winingar]

Got a quote of $6 per foot for 1x6 White Oak...

Should I keep looking?:confused:

[PAR]

I usually get it at about $5 a board foot. Did you try "WoodFinder"?

[alan white]

That's expensive. I pay maybe $4.50, any quantity, in the rough. Realize, however, that white oak is a bargain because wooden boat builders are such a small market that the attributes of white oak relative to boat use aren't effecting the price like mahogany and teak. It is sold generally for furniture because of it's appearence when quarter-sawn, and otherwise as a secondary hardwood so far as I know. I've seen pallets with white oak pieces mixed with maple, ash, etc..
Bottom line is, I'd pay $6.00 if I had to because it's worth it. I wouldn't build a business around such prices, but a single project/boat won't break the bank.

[PAR]

Agreed, I usually do get better pricing, but I posted the "retail" rate, most would find. White oak, will be cheaper to a person in Maine, then us poor southerners.

[alan white]

I think about you poor southerners every time I drop another red oak log into the woodstove. :))

[ROUGE]

Hello experts. I've been in the tall ship world for 6 years and helped out on some rebuilds, and now I've purchsed a headache of my very own. The steamed white oak frames on this 27' ketch have rotted away right at the turn of the bilge due to galvinized bolts being used and expanding with rust. I'm now faced with time and money constraints and have developed some sort of plan.
Does this sound crazy?
replace all the old galvy bolts, sister all the frames from the 5 oak stringers down into the keel, and splice the bottom halves of several completely gone frames (rather than replace them).

Obviously the boat would be quite a bit heavier from all this extra oak, but what I'm really concerned with is weather splicing a steam-bent frame will be sturdy enough even with a sister overlapping it.

[JJcurrach]

Could someone tell me what would be the best treatment to use for larch on oak rib members for a sailboat in saltwater?

[PAR]

Can you define your needs (question) a little better? You may also consider starting a new thread as this is a relatively old one.

[alan white]

Guessing the question has to do with a tried and true recipe like Stockholm tar? There's a pretty good discussion on that subject on the Woodenboat forum:
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-6677.html

[JJcurrach]

Thank you Alan, while the info you've presented w as informative it wasn't exactly what I was trying to ask.

[alan white]

I wonder what it was you wanted to know?

[nordvindcrew]

Ok, then , back to the issue. I want to buy some white oak from my friendly local saw mill to make ribs and stringers for a skin on frame fabric covered boat. some where on the forum there is a way to test with a common chemical to positively identify white oak. Can any one help me with this? thanks, Jeff

[alan white]

Luckily, white oak is pretty easy to identify. Red oak, freshly planed, is pinkish while white oak is more yellowish. That's simplifying greatly, though I've never seen white oak look pink.
The grain looks quite different too. How, i can't describe exactly. In any case, white oak in general has lot more prominant medullary rays, meaning when the cut of the face goes from inside to outside of the tree (quarter-sawn), white oak becomes georgeous with translucent ribbons, while red oak is only rarely so, usually showing only fine lines.
Any cabinet maker would know the difference.
I'm sure there's a chemical test, but the real easy test is to ask your yard for a sample of each, red and white, and see how they differ.

Alan

[alan white]

Ok, then , back to the issue. I want to buy some white oak from my friendly local saw mill to make ribs and stringers for a skin on frame fabric covered boat. some where on the forum there is a way to test with a common chemical to positively identify white oak. Can any one help me with this? thanks, Jeff

Also, is Holt and Bugbee still located down your way? They should have all kinds of hardwoods, and they know their woods.

A.

[nordvindcrew]

Holt and Bugbee rings a bell very distantly. The name is familiar but I can't place it as to where it is. I need fresh cut green wood to steam bend into ribs. Would they have access to that kind of wood? There are two local sawmills around here and I hoped to go buy some fresh cut and sawed local wood. I've got a lot of white cedar that is quite clear, but I'm afraid that wouldn't have enough strength fot my needs. The book I have on kayak building specifies clear spruce, but I'm building a larger boat to be rowed and feel the strength of the oak would be worth the weight. I could scale up the scantlings for cedar but would prefer the oak. Jeff

[alan white]

Holt and Bugbee rings a bell very distantly. The name is familiar but I can't place it as to where it is. I need fresh cut green wood to steam bend into ribs. Would they have access to that kind of wood? There are two local sawmills around here and I hoped to go buy some fresh cut and sawed local wood. I've got a lot of white cedar that is quite clear, but I'm afraid that wouldn't have enough strength fot my needs. The book I have on kayak building specifies clear spruce, but I'm building a larger boat to be rowed and feel the strength of the oak would be worth the weight. I could scale up the scantlings for cedar but would prefer the oak. Jeff

I don't blame you for wanting white oak. For a larger rowing boat, nothing indiginous comes close. For a kayak, laminated ash coated with epoxy would be fine, and very available kiln dried.
The bigger boat...ask the advice of Brooklin Boat Yard in Brooklin, Maine. Or Brad Story (Essex, Mass) down near you. Both are wood boat builders who would use steamed white oak.

Alan