Four boats.

[Frosty]

Four identicall boats go up a reef on a desert island with trees on it. On is wood one is steel one is cement and one is fibreglass.

They all get a hole 1 foot by 1 foot----Yeah I know but--

The fibre glass guy has got resin and glass, the cement guy has got a bag of cement, the steel guy has a gen -welder and some steel, and the wood guy has got some tools.

Which one is repaired and gets away off the reef first?

[Pierre R]

The guy with the steel boat is going to get away first. Why, because he is working with the only ductile material you mention. His hole can be pounded back into place and welded in a relatively short period of time all with a better fix. Welding can be accomplished in wet condtions.

The second off the reef will be the guy with the fiberglass boat providing he has enough material on board. Fiberglass is relatively easy to work with and fast. It may not look pretty or be a totally satisfactory fix but he will be afloat. This is easy provided that the boat is high and dry for a period of time each day. There are also epoxy resins that will harden underwater and adhere. If the glass is totally saturated before submersion you could even do a fix without the boat high and dry using this epoxy.

The third off will be the guy with the wooden boat. He would normally have the best chance of all except you gave all of them repair materials. He is third only because repair of wooden boats is very labor/time intensive.

The guy with the cement boat is still probably on the reef. Cement does not bond to itself well and prep to get cement to hold to cement would be a nightmare. In wet conditions the cement will wash away.

[westlawn5554X]

The ferrocement boat with the guy who have a bag of cement... based on real life experience... could be wrong...:)

Stuff the bag of cement in the whole and let it do its work... seen in Vietnam and it is fast unless u have a major crack

[StianM]

Steel first no doubt.

If the fiberglass guy can get he's boat to a dry place he will be second, but if not the sement guy is my favorite for second.

Woodguy last

[messabout]

Jack:
You penalized the wooden boat guy by making him cut down a tree and mill his planking. Play fair and give the wood guy some plywood to start with. Give him a bucket of tar to go with the plywood and he'll have his patch done before the steel guy can even crank his gen set. Damage controlmen have been using wood emergency patches for centuries because it is quick and the participants prefer not to drown.

[bertho]

all get nuts before have time to repair because to much mosquito on this fuc...desert island.. and no fresh beer 100nm away! ..:p :p :p :P

[hansp77]

I like westlawns idea.
Fill up something, a large fender, a sailbag, etc, with cement, strengthening it with some spare stainless rigging coiled throughout, and stuff it into the hole. Have one person (or object) push from the outside, and one from the inside so that the bag mushrooms out on either side of the hole untill it sets- (the SS wire would be running around the curves of the mushroom doing a sort of 'figure 8)
once the cement is set , you could tightly coil a bit of rubber, some greased line, fabric and sikaflex- whatever- around the 'plug' on the inside and outside of the hull, to improve the seal- tie it off- and get the hell out of there.

may produce a bit of resistence, but you'll be ready to try to drag your boat off the reef in a little over the time it takes the cement to set. It has got to be quicker than any of the other options (aside from maybe the woody if he had some plywood and a bag of nails for a dodgey quick fix).

Dragging it off the reef is a whole nother matter (which if they all have to wait for the next tide might lead into a draw- or the lightest boat getting off first).
From what I have heard of my mates big ferro boat up in Darwin and his ability to 'park it' on rocks and reefs with no damage- the ferro may just have the best chance of getting back off the reef without knocking another hole in it.

[PAR]

The wooden boat skipper tears off the plywood countertop in the galley and nails a patch over the hole and is on his way, without the need for additional wood. I've done this, while well out in deep water. I used screws. While everyone else is looking for welding equipment, the hardener tube that use to be with the resin or wondering if the bag of concrete has some usable stuff in the middle of the rock hard exterior of the bag.

[lazeyjack]

all wrong the steel boat bounces up and down, does not get holed, sits and waits for high water, , breaks a coconut, mixes with rum, catches a fish hey you guys are all crackers:P
saw lotsa steel yachts and others too up on the reef and beleive me its very scary, unless you see the fury of the sea upon a coral reef you have no idea just how freaky it is, but i,ve seen em battered but never holed, the ferro boats never get off they just get pulped .as do most, although there was a big ally bilge keeler up on the reef our Noumea, she did get off there are without exaggeration hundreds lost in the Pacific on reefs every cruising season

[Trevlyns]

You're a cheat, Jack ;) Your original post said (quote) They all get a hole 1 foot by 1 foot----Yeah I know but--
Now you've ruined the friendship :D

[Frosty]

You're a cheat, Jack ;) Your original post said (quote) They all get a hole 1 foot by 1 foot----Yeah I know but--
Now you've ruined the friendship :D

And that what it still says,-- always has said that. I havent changed anything.

Im not a cheat sir --I demand satisfaction,-- Feather dusters at 200yds.

[Trevlyns]

Touche! Although I must warn you, my normal choice of weapons would be conkers :D

[Frosty]

Conkers !!!!! jeees our sepo friends wont know what we are talking about. I had a 109er once. Soaked in vinigar of course, hanging on a toilet chain.

Very intimidating at competition level.

Very well, if you insist,-- 6am under the old oak tree.

[lazeyjack]

you even got that wrong frosty, UNDER THE OLD HORSE CHESTNUT TREE!!
And mine which wuz oven baked(AGA- no less) was 999, er

[lazeyjack]

I,LL HEV YOU KNOW, I wuz educated at Harrow!! so our conkers were simply top notch, ole bean,

[charmc]

Jack (Frosty)and Jack (Lazey),

You're demonstrating why the British Empire sank flaming into the sea, never to return..... :) :)

[Poida]

Reckon timber away first because even if the other boats fixed their holes they would be too heavy to get back off the reef.

Poida

[Frosty]

This same question when asked in the bar results as such.

No 2 guys can agree.

Personally although not a wood man, I would prefer to work with some wood and fill the hole.

However I am more at home with steel and I would just like to comment that the steel repair would be permemant and would not need further attention. It would be sound to continue a journey.

However all the other boats would need further attention after getting off the reef and go immediately to a ship yard.

[timgoz]

If you had a suitable drill onboard a steel boat, you would not need a welder.

Drill holes around the edge of the hole & place a piece of marine ply or steel over. H2O proof epoxy, rubber gasket, ect... to seal.

Would work best to size patch first, then drill it and use as drilling template for hull.

Wood would be quickest.

As LJ said though, steel is far less likely to be holed in the first place.

Did'nt Bernard Moister's (sp?) steel boat "Joshua" basically grind several other boats to smithereens when washed ashore by a storm in Mexico.

She was able to be refloated.

Tim

[westlawn5554X]

If you are fully equipped with the knowledge of a hole and prepared yes then all have their ways...

I f you wanna look fast and well prepared team ... look at the submarine hole patcher you will be amazed... cuz if isnt patch fast then it sink fast.

[Frosty]

Mmm

Im not moving the goal post here but, if the was a hole was on a chine.

Any way taking ALL this into consideration, maybe the wood??

They say cement is pretty easy,

I have no experience with this but it does at least sound as though you mix sand---(mm would there be sand there) and water ---yup plenty of that --mix it up and bung it in. Straightening the re-bar as much as possible to get some strength. You could donate some old tools or kitchen cuttlery for extra strength and to hold it in place. Yes I could immagine that working.

Quick dry cement!!!

Maybe you could soak it in oil on the ouside to protect it for as long as possible.

[westlawn5554X]

You put a bag of cement in the hole and let the sea water set in and cure the powder no extra hardware or software... very hard to convince if ya didnt see one in action. :)

[Frosty]

You would be better off throwing a bucket of sea water over it and get it to set before the tide comes in.

Jamming tools or knifes and forks in the whole first and them mix up some cement as thick as you can would make the job pretty easy.

[westlawn5554X]

yeah you have a point there ole timer... :D

[Frosty]

Infact it might not be a bad idea to repair all of them in this manner.

Notice I did not include an aluminium hull in this problem.

Now that would make you put your head in your hands.

[Willallison]

C'mon you guys...that's just not how it's done anymore...what a bunch of relics you lot turned out to be.
Everyone knows the fastest will be the bloke with his sat phone. He'll call up seatow and arrange for them to come fix it. In the meantime, he'll sit on the 3rd or 4th story of his floating condo and enjoy that tropical island sunset whilst sipping on a cocktail.

[Poida]

Thanks Frosty

So while I patiently wait for the answer, whereby you would enlighten us with science, or maybe a comic answer, you calmly tell me you don't know the bloody answer.

Can't wait for the publication of "Frosty's Book of Brain Teasers."

What about the "Frosty Cube" where every square is a different colour, play with it for hours and you'll never get two colours to line up.

Frosty the No Man :p

Poida

[westlawn5554X]

C'mon you guys...that's just not how it's done anymore...what a bunch of relics you lot turned out to be.
Everyone knows the fastest will be the bloke with his sat phone. He'll call up seatow and arrange for them to come fix it. In the meantime, he'll sit on the 3rd or 4th story of his floating condo and enjoy that tropical island sunset whilst sipping on a cocktail.

say that to titanic survivor...:(

[Frosty]

I dont bloody know-- What made you think I know.

you've got more points than me --why dont you know?

[Omeron]

Just curious... to those who say steel..
The hole is probably somewhere near the turn of the bilge.
If the guy has a thick,flat sheet of steel, how is he going to bend it
to match the curve to begin with?

[timgoz]

Who said it had to be thick?

A smart skipper would also likely have some prebent patch material on hand. A small sledge hammer combined with serious need can do wonders. Thick gasketting material would compensate for an imperfect fit.

A readily formable alloy could be used for a temporary repair on steel also.

Tim

[Omeron]

If the guy had all these pre bent steel sheets to mach all the various curves
of his boat, a welding shop, sledge hammers, rivets and what not,he might as well build himself a new boat while he is at it, or make some design changes that he was always dreaming of...
No offense,Just joking really....

[timgoz]

Omeron,

The size boat I can afford (24-28ft.) is not large enough to facillitate carrying a welder/gen-set. The above ideas were put forth with that in mind.

Hey, don't you know that we don't joke around here! :rolleyes:

Take care.

Tim

[Frosty]

Hey theres a point.

Couldnt you weld on the plate from the batteries.

300-400amp bank of batteries?

Ive heard of it but Im not sure.

[timgoz]

I would think it would draw them down quick if it is possible. If you were able to run the engine and keep them charging, it would help. If you were high and dry you might be able to run a hose for water intake.

Another thought for flat sections is a sorta "hull skin sandwhich".

A piece of marine ply could be placed inboard & outboard of the hole. These could then be fastened together by way of screws with, once again, a suitable gasketting material employed. This way drilling through the steel hull skin would be avoided.

Tim

[westlawn5554X]

Use a 1200 CCA (cold cranking Ampre ) battery might work... it can let loose a lotta juice and it is dry mind you. :)

[Frosty]

A profesional diver /welder told me once he managed to stick some zincs on under water with a normal welder. He said you get a shock from it but its not too bad -just grit your teeth.

He also said something about changing the polarity from what you would use normaly . I guess he means posative earth!!

If you could just get it tacked on you could jam in socks and underpants from the inside. Or even some of that cheap caulking stuff you can buy these days.

[westlawn5554X]

I think there is a special weldin rod for sea water... _ Brocco?

[Omeron]

How about a heavy canvas wetted by epoxy and stuck over the hole.
Perhaps additional patches from the inside to thicken it up.
Would that hold?

[lewisboats]

DC+ is the correct setting for stick welding. The stick should be + and the ground -. The electrons flow from - to +.

Steve

[erik818]

Hull material doesn't really matter. Any boat can be repaired in an ugly but functional way so it holds together until there is time to do it properly. It helps if proper tools and material are available, but if necessary anything would have to do.
The boat with someone who is practial, can improvise and has the skill to handle tools will get off the reef first. The skipper who has a satelite telephone and lots of money will have to wait until someone bothers to come and help him.
It's difficult to prepare for a specific disaster. Something unprepared for will happen instead. Of the four boats in the scenarion, I would prefer to sit in the wooden boat in case of disaster. Not because it is wood, but because it is equipped with lots of tools. On the other hand, a steel boat that just happens to have welding equipment on board might have a few other tools as well...
Erik

[Pierre R]

Traditionally steel has always been the easiest to fix in remote locations. I do not have a steel boat but I do have a welder aboard. My voltage regulator is actually a welder. I has holes for leads. You need to run the engine at 1400 rpm to get the required amps to weld. Since my boat does not use raw water for cooling, I could do this even high and dry for a short period of time.

A one foot hole in a steel boat is unlikely to be just torn out. More likely there will be a tear with the pieces bent back. Steel is ductile and a sledge hammer will bend steel plating the thickness that is used on pleasure craft boats.

If holed I could probably repair the damage on a steel boat within a couple of hours. Epoxy and cement take far longer to achieve strength.

If you are partially on a reef and taking on water you can stuff things into the hole of a steel boat then start pounding the steel back in place a squeezing the stuff you put in the hole into a gasket or simple plug. The hole will have been punched from the outside so the steel will be bulged to the inside and can be pounded back from inside the boat. You can stop a big leak in a hurry using this method and it has been done many times in remote areas.


There are many instances of wood boats doing quick spot repairs using plywood, gasket materials and screws. The log books are full of this kind of stuff.

Fiberglass has traditionally not faired as well on doing emergency repairs. Matresses and blankets on the outside has had some success but fiberglass boats don't do well once holed. Delamination/deformation and structural damage are common with a one foot hole. If you have all the necessary materials and are not sinking you can do a fair job in a hurry with underwater epoxy. The loss rate of fiberglass boat on reefs is very high.

The tales of cement boats getting off a reef are few and far between. Ferrocement and portland do not do well in salt water. The loss rate on cement boats is nearly 100%.

Do your homework ahead of time and you will not end up on a reef in the first place.

[chandler]

Obviously the wooden boat! Patch of luan some 5200 and a few screws.
With a 1x 1 hole the steel boat will sink like a chunk of steel, the concrete hull will sink like a bag of cement before anyone even knows ther's a hole.

[Pericles]

I,LL HEV YOU KNOW, I wuz educated at Harrow!! so our conkers were simply top notch, ole bean,

I rather think you meant to write "I wuz edificated in Arrer!!! etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I can identify a swallowed vowel and dropped (h)aitch at 100 paces.
Conkers, bonkers. Kids can only play if wearing safety goggles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_6030000/newsid_6036800/6036847.stm

Pericles