A delicate question

[Bergalia]

Australia's first submarine which was lost during the outbreak of World War I might have been found off Papua New Guinea.



Attempts are currently underway to raise the wreck of the AE1, what is claimed to be Australia's first submarine.

The 60-metre sub and its entire crew disappeared during a routine mission in 1914, and was last seen near the Duke of York Islands in East New Britain. But two years ago sonar detectors on board Australian Navy ship HMAS Benalla detected an object a similar shape and size to that of the AE1 sub, near Rabaul.

Further investigations proved the speculation correct and efforts are now underway to raise the wreck.

The delicate question I pose is wether it should be left at rest along with its crew and respected as with similar 'marine wargraves' - Sullum Voe in the Orkneys being a prime example. Or do we treat the resting place of these men as we would an archeological dig (objects of curiousity) as with long-barrows or tombs of ancient Eygypt.

[longliner45]

no ,,its time to give the sailers a proper funeral and resting place,,and put the artifact in a museam,,,restored,...and yes we have the arizona and the monitor,,,the crew of the Arizona was given a naval burial at sea ,and a monument was made to those brave man,,the monitor itself was put at the mariners museam,and the crew given a proper navel burial,,,,and next of kin ,,notified,longliner

[charmc]

No problem with raising a warship so long as it is done with all proper honors to the dead. The key, IMHO, lies in honoring the sacrifice of courageous warriors. Most recently here in the US, the Hunley, believed to carry out the world's first successful undersea combat attack, was raised. The remains of the crew on board were identified, families notified, and they were buried with full military honors. I think that's the right thing.

[StianM]

The marine museum is Sidney is a good one and some stuff from that sub would not make it worse.

When I die I would not mind people diging me up a few times becuse I'm dead so I wont care, But I gues there si people more spiritual minded than myself. Why should we not dig them up since there seam to be no problem putting the old Egypt kings and Ozy the iceman on display, I doubt there is annyone alive today remembering those seamen.

[Frosty]

To me the people inside arnet people any more they are deceased.

Thier remains should be respectfully laid to rest, with appropriate honours from the government.

The sub however needs as much respect if not more. This is a place of death where very brave men gave thier lives fighting for something they believd in.

If the sub will be used for a childrens attraction in a theme park then leave her be at the bottom of the sea.

If it will be apprecited as a place of death and respected as such then it too can be placed in a suitable building.

[westlawn5554X]

second that in motion... you're sooo cute and nicie jack :)

[charmc]

To me the people inside arnet people any more they are deceased.

Thier remains should be respectfully laid to rest, with appropriate honours from the government.

The sub however needs as much respect if not more. This is a place of death where very brave men gave thier lives fighting for something they believd in.

If the sub will be used for a childrens attraction in a theme park then leave her be at the bottom of the sea.

If it will be apprecited as a place of death and respected as such then it too can be placed in a suitable building.

Aaaaaaah! The professionally cynical curmudgeon shows his true colors at last.

Seriously, that was well said, jack.

(Don't worry, I won't tell Walrus you're really a good guy)

[lazeyjack]

leave her down IMO,
we can all silently appreciate their loss, but here war or the aftermath of it, is oft glorified here, they rabbit on and on My old Pa was 6 years away WW2 he always said "why the hell don't we forget it" it took him away from Mum all that time, and to go march every year, to him, was a bloody joke
i f it was was one of my rels, I would say leave him be
Whose waters is she in, I,ll bet if it was in our waters and a German or Jap, there would be a 30 year commission of enquiry before we let "em in our waters"
i think its kinds noble to be entombed in a ship, leave em be

[timgoz]

They should ask the sailors surviving family & decendants. Personally I'd leave her at rest.

Tim

[safewalrus]

there's a lot of merit in both sides of the argument! do we leave her or raise her and give the crew a decent burial?

My view? If theres any close relatives (sons or daughters who remember dad) still alive she should be left, as is, until they are gone - or an attempt made to find out how she went before raising her! We don't know how they went! If that is not the case raise her then find out what happened and take it from there! Decent burial or slip her back beneath the waves, as a 'war grave'! But whatever it must be done quietly and with no press until after wards! Bit of decorum to start with - if that can't be done , leave her be!

[Guillermo]

Just a bit off topic, and this said with all respect, I wonder why we have to treat navy people who died at sea with more honours than, let's say, fishermen who also died at sea. Why armies' or navies' people deserve more honours than any other men or women who die, whatever the reason, in the everyday's battle to feed and/or grow up their families and collaborate to build up a better society?
I have never understood this.

[MikeJohns]

Yes it is tricky

Thinking about it; if I was asked if it was me dead and entombed I would say please recover the vessel and tell the tale. I know other people would say leave them. There was a strong view in Christian society that mortal remains should remain undisturbed for the resurrection of the flesh.

Unfortunantely after that length of time all our remains completely de-mineralize in the sea water. The men’s remains have long since mixed with the ocean and dissipate with the first breach of the hull.
Ultimately the ocean disturbs all wrecks, it is only recent ones that have the crews remains aboard unless you take a spiritual view.

But then if the spirits remained with the wreck wouldn't it be better to have it back on dry land ???

The Sydney harbor raid WW2 Japanese midget sub was just found after 60 odd years off a nearby surf beach. Examination of the vessels exits has told the tale that the crew died within but it is conjecture since their remains have long since gone. We are sending some sand from within the breached hull to Japan so they can bury it. All symbolic and very emotional but important in that the family gets what the psychologists call "closure" knowing what happened is valuable to surviving relatives. Like exhuming mass graves.

[Bergalia]

Just a bit off topic, and this said with all respect, I wonder why we have to treat navy people who died at sea with more honours than, let's say, fishermen who also died at sea. Why armies' or navies' people deserve more honours than any other men or women who die, whatever the reason, in the everyday's battle to feed and/or grow up their families and collaborate to build up a better society?
I have never understood this.


An excellent point Guillermo. While there are of course memorials raised to those lost ‘souls’ who 'served' in the merchant marine - fisherfolk included, as you suggest few 'annual' ceremonies dripping pomp and circumstance - pipes, drums, reversed rifles and a forest of wreathes - include those who served ‘out of uniform.’

It would be nice to believe that the annual services of remembrace are held to acknowledge the ‘sacrifice’ made by the fallen military, navies and airforces - young men and women despatched to ‘correct’ the diplomatic blunders committed by past political animals. That in ‘honouring ‘ the dead we are emphasising that their deaths were ‘not in vain.’

Unfortunately this is seldom true. More often than not it is a thinly veiled media spectacular redolent with hypocrisy. True, for some there is a deep sense of regret at the waste; for others it is simply a ‘custom,’ a day to wear some flimsy token of ‘respect,’ - often a poppy whose symbolism is long since lost; and for the politicians (few who have military experience) it is essentially the chance of a ‘photo opportunity.’

Meanwhile the parents, widows, children and siblings of those ‘lost at sea’ performing ‘unremarkable’ yet necessary tasks for the continued welfare of their nations will grieve silently, privately and in their hearts, but receive little public recognition. It is, after all - just part of the job.

[timgoz]

I think many fishermen would prefer low-key to elaborate. Death is an ever present possibility and to much emphasis on past loss brings to mind what may come.

As to things such as Memorial Day in the US. We have thousands of relatively small intimate cerimonies. They are not for polititians and recieve minimal media coverage. They are for what they should be.

Tim

[Bergalia]

....In the US. We have thousands of relatively small intimate cerimonies. They are not for polititians and recieve minimal media coverage. They are for what they should be.Tim

Tim, I was speaking from the heart. I am an ex-fisherman, from a small island community which contained not a single family which had not been touched at some time by the loss at sea of a father, son or kin. The only 'memorial' was an imported 'government-issue' slab of sandstone (a mineral foreign to the island) for victims of a private aircraft which had crashed whilst transporting a handful of bureacrats enroute for Iceland in 1952.

But my experience is of 'official' ceremonies which annually occur in the UK and here in Australia. In my small corner of New South Wales we 'celebrate' Anzac Day in many of the small settlements. On that day, starting at dawn and ending in the late afternoon our local Federal politician wears himself to a frazzle attempting to appear at every event. And the following week the local paper has a page of pictures devoted to 'The Hon X' with his head bowed respectfully at up to a dozen local 'intimate' gatherings.

[timgoz]

That would be bothersome, making political points on the sacrifices of brave men.

Why have not the fishermen & kin placed a memorial?

In Newfoundland I've seen simple oblisks with names engraved of all local folks "Lost at Sea". I like the elegant simplicity of such memorials.

Tim

[Bergalia]

...Why have not the fishermen & kin placed a memorial? Tim

Native reticence, Tim. Grief is considered a personal private thing. Apart from which it is still a small enough community to know, without being reminded of the losses.

[Frosty]

A Navy sailor dies for King and Country. he probably had not much say in the matter.

A fisherman dies because he wanted to be there to make money.
It was his desicion to be a fisherman and to go out in that boat on that day.

There was no gun at his head.

[timgoz]

Aint that what I was getting at above? :confused:

Off-topic: Watched Braveheart last night. Do you know if it was filmed in Scotland? That is some awesome country! I envy your roots. :)

BTW, my new avatar is reportedly the Gosnold coat of arms. We Gosnells were originally Gosnolds. Hopefully I have a family link to Bartholmew Gosnold.

Gonna get off early as I just got mum home from a 5 day hospital stay.

Take care Max.

Tim

[Bergalia]

A Navy sailor dies for King and Country. he probably had not much say in the matter.
A fisherman dies because he wanted to be there to make money.


Too simple an answer Frosty - and displays a sad lack of understanding of 'fishing' society. I'll allow you that over the past few years greed has seen an enormous rise in the number of people and nations who viewed 'fishing' as a fat milch cow. But I'm referring to societies whose whole livelihood has been dependant on fishing as a traditional way of life - where fathers and sons followed fathers and sons into the only trade they knew. Societies where there has been no alternative; no factories 'down the road,' no colleges or technical schools where they could enlist to learn 'new skills'; where the sea is the only available way of earning a living - and then mainly to feed their families and bring a small, I emphasise 'small' income back to that community. Sure, no-one put a gun to their head - only necessity.

[Bergalia]

...Gonna get off early as I just got mum home from a 5 day hospital stay.Tim

Off you go Tim. Don't hang around, and you take care of your mum. You just don't appreciate them until they are no longer around. And, hey, give her our love (and I'm taking the chance, for once,that no-one on this forum will disagree with these sentiments.):)

[Frosty]

I watched 'Perfect Storm'

Do they have buses in these little fishing communities, or even a road out of the place.

If I saw little blocks of stone all over the village identifying lost or drowned fishermen I am pretty sure I would be standing at the bus stop.

I sold up and caught a one way plane to the other side of the world when I was 21 because I wasnt happy with the road in front of me.

necessity isnt necessarily necessary.

[Bergalia]

I watched 'Perfect Storm'...Do they have buses in these little fishing communities, or even a road out of the place.
If I saw little blocks of stone all over the village identifying lost or drowned fishermen I am pretty sure I would be standing at the bus stop.
I sold up and caught a one way plane to the other side of the world when I was 21 because I wasnt happy with the road in front of me.


What's your point Frosty ?:confused:

[Frosty]

APATHY It can kill you.

[Bergalia]

APATHY It can kill you.

Then I apologise for my family being apathetic during the past 300 years....

[Guillermo]

Too simple an answer Frosty - and displays a sad lack of understanding of 'fishing' society. I'll allow you that over the past few years greed has seen an enormous rise in the number of people and nations who viewed 'fishing' as a fat milch cow. But I'm referring to societies whose whole livelihood has been dependant on fishing as a traditional way of life - where fathers and sons followed fathers and sons into the only trade they knew. Societies where there has been no alternative; no factories 'down the road,' no colleges or technical schools where they could enlist to learn 'new skills'; where the sea is the only available way of earning a living - and then mainly to feed their families and bring a small, I emphasise 'small' income back to that community. Sure, no-one put a gun to their head - only necessity.
:) :) :)
I think every single person who tries to build up honestly a life, working hardly every day, whatever the occupation, deserves no less recognition than a soldier does. Nobody puts a gun in the head of a soldier to sign in nowadays, at least in developed countries. It's just a job, risky sometimes, true, but no more risky than many other risky jobs. So I do not understand very well all that 'honours' stuff in the times running (Maybe with the exception of heroic acts in service). Maybe the only reason to keep that kind of ceremonies and medals giving thing alive, is to compensate armies' people for what is most of the times a not well enough paid job, as well as to keep their minds 'on line' to obey orders. And this is not a criticism (I've been a navy officer myself), absolutely, just a note.

[timgoz]

Thanks Berg. I passed that on to mom. Lost my father as an infant, so she is all I ever had. Trying to appreciate her while she is alive. :)

Tim

[safewalrus]

Tim as Bergalia said (and as one who lost one same as you, only the other way round!) cherish them whilst you can! Your mother is the most important person in your life - bar none!! give yours my love as well!

Mike

[safewalrus]

As to why we have cerimonies for dead servicemen and not civilians - would advertising have anything to do with it? You'll go out fishing or trading for money to feed your family (if you've got any kind of compassion - and are part of a family, no matter how small. some haven't and arn't - sad! Some think that's the qway to be! even sadder and disillusioned). so to get people to go out and kill or be killed for no obvious reason now we can't force them to we have to have large well meaning ceremonies with lots of 'swank' to make 'em think it's all worthwhile! And the dumb buggers who went and came back (and there's a lot of us) - you got to help them get over the loss of friends etc and make them think it was worth it! Maybe it was, I've known a few who could say otherwise??!! But I still attend - each to his own, I guess! I know those who wouldn't go anywhere near a parade, of any sort and some of them...............

[Frosty]

When some one dies and you cry. Why are you crying? Is it because they --the poor person has died so your crying for thier loss of life --Or are you crying for yourself because you will never see them again.

I have never understood this?

[longliner45]

when jack dies ,,I will cry ,,,,,,,,,,,tears of joy:)

[Bergalia]

When some one dies and you cry. Why are you crying? Is it because they --the poor person has died so your crying for thier loss of life --Or are you crying for yourself because you will never see them again. I have never understood this?


All of the above Frosty. But Highlanders don't cry...we just get rat-arsed.

[Bergalia]

when jack dies ,,I will cry ,,,,,,,,,,,tears of joy:)


No you won't Longliner...there'll be a large chunk of your life suddenly missing.

[longliner45]

yea your probably right ,,,I really enjoy the folks here,good conversationalist,,and just good in general,,and I learn alotte,,,,,,,longliner

[Bergalia]

yea your probably right ,,,I really enjoy the folks here,good conversationalist,,and just good in general,,and I learn alotte,,,,,,,longliner


Still haven't learned to spell or use those......yet :D

[lazeyjack]

No you won't Longliner...there'll be a large chunk of your life suddenly missing.
Its funny how threads get lost, I have not seen this one for days

Cryin? depends last year I lost a friend, was an young guy used to work for me, took his life, he was a smashing young lad,
When I got the news yeppers I cried all right, but most of it was for me on that day, but since that day was for him, and what he suffered,
the first time I pulled mangled bodies from a wreck(car) I had nightmares for days, they were not dead, but a young family, the next time they were dead and where tatooed hoons, drunk, I remember me and the doc working on em, the Doc was my own doc as it turned out, anyways it did not bother me one bit,
It is quite amazing how we all react differently, for instance there was a big crowd present by the time I got there,a crowd had formed they were all scared to go and check this very still form laying in one of the cars, I digress , sorry
Max in Ru, there are memorials to lost fishers, I think yes, erect monuments to dead seaman, however they lose their lives, but not to yachtsman, silly buggers:))

[Frosty]

Hey now dont go all soppy on me.-- I only asked a question.

Aahhh feell good today --might go for a jog later.

Didnt feel too good yesterday, this woman at the bar said I might have a low sperm count. I took a de worming pill and she must have been right. I feel good,

[Bergalia]

..Cryin? depends last year I lost a friend, was an young guy used to work for me, took his life, he was a smashing young lad. When I got the news yeppers I cried all right, but most of it was for me on that day, but since that day was for him...

Understood Stu. And there's no 'shame' in that. It's incredibly human.
I grew up in a culture which frowned upon 'men' showing any emotion whatsoever. (Even though I saw dad - when he thought he was alone - weep for lost friends and family). We'd been told that tears are for the women, and women alone. Men just 'brace up, and get on with life. Even hugging among men was frowned on. I sat beside my father and watched him die, longing to put my arm around him and tell him just what he'd meant to me. But the look on the old bugger's face told me such a display would be 'undignified' - even in that moment.
Stu, I envy you the ability to reveal the 'true' side of your nature.

[Frosty]

Weeping --crying-- is for whimps, stand up man straighten up.

Am I stronger --or am I weaker --I dont know

[lazeyjack]

Weeping --crying-- is for whimps, stand up man straighten up.

Am I stronger --or am I weaker --I dont know

Frosty you are ok, but just a wee bit lonely. Bars are for whimps, , and gays and kids
Now you take me, I never go there, I dont want to drink my vodka warm or have it mixed with pink fizzy ****
Max, I watched my dad die and when I said bye I cried, he was alive, ,
the way we bonded was to get our winter wood in, all over the farm, they were good memories I did not cry cos he was going but for what we never had
Our family are all men, but we never held back emotion. I know zakkly how you must have felt and do and always will, for things left unsaid, undone
Thats why when ya go to bed, you must never go to bed mad with someone, sort it first, tomorrow may be too late

[timgoz]

Hey Frosty, you homophobic?

I give my designated drunk driver "Budrick Earl of Tarrs" a kiss on the head (not lips) on occassion, I'm as hetro as any man.

Berg,

The reason I have strong feelings concerning Vets is that my father, who I never knew, dying when I was 20months, was a 101st Airborne 17r. old WWII volunteer. Nevr got over it. Took his life at 40yrs. I am now 43yrs. :)

Not bragging, just stateing fact. It is an everpresent, (or for the most part), mental entity.

Had a couple tonight. Gonna get to bed before someone docks me for more points.

Take care Sir.

Tim

[timgoz]

My fellow Buckeye (born in Euclid, OH), which is considered a "useless nut", take care. :)

Tim

[Frosty]

Ok Im not such a hard bastard.

If you want to talk stiff upper lip dont cuddle shut up kind of family --thats us lot--the Fosts,-- hard Yorkshire up bringing. At my school you would get beaten up for lying or being un punctual-- a very serous crime . It was considered wasting anothers time.

I said good bye to my parents last time I saw them in Uk going on 3 years ago. They are both in there 80's.

My dad keeps buying mountain bikes for Petes sake.

When I meet my dad he will shake my hand and say hello son ,Im just going down for a drink ille see you later then. That was after 5 years.



I then sit and talk in the Kitchen with me mum, before I go up into town for a hotel.

When I last left they ( I had managed 10 whole days in Uk) both stood in the doorway, My mother fought of the teers and stood up straight. and then the strangest thing happened my mother hugged me. It was then that I noticed my dad a bit close, Damn it he cuddled me too. I was blown away. Ive never cuddled my mother before.

Gotta go in Sept I suppose. If you think Im hard you wanna see my sister.

Is this all why Im a bit wierd. But I like puppies.

PS I mean hugged not cuddled

[lazeyjack]

Ok Im not such a hard bastard.

If you want to talk stiff upper lip dont cuddle shut up kind of family --thats us lot--the Fosts,-- hard Yorkshire up bringing. At my school you would get beaten up for lying or being un punctual-- a very serous crime . It was considered wasting anothers time.

I said good bye to my parents last time I saw them in Uk going on 3 years ago. They are both in there 80's.

My dad keeps buying mountain bikes for Petes sake.

When I meet my dad he will shake my hand and say hello son ,Im just going down for a drink ille see you later then. That was after 5 years.



I then sit and talk in the Kitchen with me mum, before I go up into town for a hotel.

When I last left they ( I had managed 10 whole days in Uk) both stood in the doorway, My mother fought of the teers and stood up straight. and then the strangest thing happened my mother hugged me. It was then that I noticed my dad a bit close, Damn it he cuddled me too. I was blown away. Ive never cuddled my mother before.

Gotta go in Sept I suppose. If you think Im hard you wanna see my sister.

Is this all why Im a bit wierd. But I like puppies.

PS I mean hugged not cuddled

Frosty, you say bye, poka(russian) , ciao, but you never ay GOODBYE, cos goodbye is final, so always bye, poka, ciao, ok? God do I hafta teach you everything?

[Bergalia]

Alright, alright - enough of this weepy weepy stuff....Anybody got any new knitting-patterns to swap....:)

[westlawn5554X]

To all the hero that had parrised, without it I would be speaking and writting in a Japanese boat forum... Rest in peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rlJEbO63o

[Bergalia]

To all the hero that had parrised, without it I would be speaking and writting in a Japanese boat forum... Rest in peace.


Dash it Westie...I was under the impression you were doing that already....
:p

[westlawn5554X]

U have too a big gulp of scott emulsion my fine sir... :)

[lazeyjack]

someone said, that bones disappear in sea water
In 72, 1972 that is:)) I got up some wine, crockery and horse pelvic bones from Wreck of the Wairapa, Gt Barrier Island NZ, she had been carrying race horses from Ireland, sunk 1893

[safewalrus]

Tim ain't the will power you got trouble with (wasn't he a U2 pilot, no that was Gary Powers - totally irrelivant but 'wot the f') it's the WON'T power as in I won't have another smoke!!;)