Solidworks2000 design methods

[Brandon]

I havew been experimenting with Solidworks2000 as a boat design tool, I am wondering if anyone has any experience with using this program for boat design, I have used it extensively for mechanical design but as we all know boat design and mechanical design are quite different...any suggestions/help would be aprreciated. Thanks, Brandon

[Dim]

Dear Brandon,

I thought, whether it is necessary to display some pictures from the past jobs. Probably I shall show. Because I same tried much to model in "Mechanical Desktop" ship constructions.
Difference "Mechanical Desktop" and "SolidWorks" in a geometrical "base". In "Mechanical Desktop" - "Asis", and in "SolidWorks" - "Parasolid". As far as I could read about their characteristics, Parasolid - it is better.
It seems, that usage of solid-state simulation in "Mechanical Desktop" and "SolidWorks" in shipbuilding is meaningful only in the event that it is necessary to make stress calculation. The well familiar environment of development of solid-model will allow you with the least quantity of time to create model then to export it in calc's unit of stress calculaton soft. That is, to work, for example not in "Femap", but in "SolidWorks".
As sometimes it happens expediently to use not native for shipbuilding of the program, when it is fast necessary to test proper design from the point of view of the sizes. That is, if this detail will be of such size, whether that can it be installed in a necessary place?
Basically, I consider, that it is more expedient to use the specialized software.
Probably I not of the rights.

Yours faithfully,
Dim.

[txjm]

I don't know if this is a help, but can't Solidworks 2003 and 2004 do sheetmetal lofts. I would think would help generate flat patterns. I played with 2001 and found it easy to generate a solid model, but could not find a use for it. I am going to try 2004 as soon as I get time.

I played with it some. It looks like the sheetmetal lofts will not do but 2 profiles.

[navinod]

Hi, I use SW 2001+ for mechanical drawings & sometime for boat design, but "it's a real mess"!!
The hull must be a surface, not a solid in order to be modified. It's not so easy to export it as IGES file too.
I suggest U to use Maxsurf or Autoship to moded hulls & decks.

B.R.

M-V

[Paul B]

SW really wasn't designed specifically for the task of Yacht Design, so it isn't as good a choice as something like MaxSurf.

However, your lofts can be solids and not only surfaces. All of the pics in my gallery are Base Lofts in Solidworks. That produces solids, not surfaces. I can modify any point in any sketch at any time.

[Wil]

I've done a fair bit of sheetmetal lofting with SW2004, it'll only let you do the 2 profiles (no guide curves) because it needs to be able to unfold flat - if it has other curves in it, it'll need to rip the surface to be able to be flattened (which it obviously won't allow). It's good in a way that it's constrained like that, so you know that what you're making relates to real world construction (sorry if that isn't clear, i'm not the best at trying to explain stuff sometimes).

But it's good being able to pick any part of the boat and develop the flat pattern in an instant, worth the initial effort to figure it out (only started doing it recently). I give my boss the flat patterns and he sends 'em off to the guy with the cnc.

I'd like to talk with other people about using Solidworks (esp, sheetmetal lofts etc.), i'll check out this forum from time to time.. email @ wil_919@hotmail.com

[CGN]

Hi I been using solidworks too, and it works great for modeling the structure of a vessel, I do not use solids for the hull surface, just not working and I really don't need it, and I'm using solidworks with Rhino and open and saving the surface as rhino 3d native format, there is no way to develop a surface within solidworks only with plug ins, there is a new free surface add on for solidworks but I have no idea what it does, I know that one of the best combinations is to use surfaceworks and its plate development software but again surfaceworks works inside solidworks and the surfaces that you can create are parametric, I like solidworks only to create the structure all my surfaces are coming form rhino 3D, I been practicing and is really good, change the shape of the bottom of your boat in rhino and then re-import it in solidworks and that's all the structure updates.

"It seems, that usage of solid-state simulation in "Mechanical Desktop" and "SolidWorks" in shipbuilding is meaningful only in the event that usage of solid-state simulation in "Mechanical Desktop" and "SolidWorks" in shipbuilding is meaningful only in the event that it is necessary to make stress calculation"

I will like to make a comment here, 3D modeling is to be able to have a model with a bill of materials, track your materials and "try" to not omit any detail and of course FITTING... the true meaning of 3D make sure that what you are designing it's going to fit (all its parts), Also to have a model capable to be updated in anytime and in a fast way, and do any mechanical study FEA, CFD or whatever calculation can be practiced to the model itself.

Solidworks has been really easy to work with I haven't use Pro I for example, but I have seen software like VX, Alibre, Parasolid and some other software but none has been easy as solidworks to work the structure of a hull, there is some features that I haven't seen in many other software that is really helpful.

So you really need other software to make company to solidworks, solidworks can't do everything, no plate developing, no easy hull fairing tools, you need this software and then export to solidworks.

[ludesign]

I typically model and unfold all major surfaces (hul, deck, frames bulheads, etc) in TouchCAD and then export it to VectorWorks as solid NURBS surfaces. I can either add a material thickness directly in TouchCAD, which allows a variable material theckness and nice corner trims, or by using the Shell feature in VectorWorks. The later generate fully operational solids where you can cut out or add pieces, calculate volumes, and trim / round corners.

/Claes

[CGN]

Hi, Claes can you have a full parametric model?, like all parts of the hull related, like moving a bulkhead from pint A to Point B without having to redraw it?. or modified the surface and update all the structure related to that surface with out redraw or redefine the frames?.

I still have vectorworks in my computer but i'm doing really slow with the demo but is a great software.


Thanks

[ludesign]

Hi, Claes can you have a full parametric model?, like all parts of the hull related, like moving a bulkhead from pint A to Point B without having to redraw it?. or modified the surface and update all the structure related to that surface with out redraw or redefine the frames?.

I still have vectorworks in my computer but i'm doing really slow with the demo but is a great software.


Thanks

I'm not sure if you refer to VectorWorks or TouchCAD but both have some but not full parametric features in the sence you describe. This is a clear difference between high end programs such as SolidWorks and less expensive programs such as VectorWorks and TouchCAD.

In TouchCAD, where I personally do all such jobs, you can simultaniously reshape any number of control points located in any number of surfaces. if you for example just make the entire model a bit longer everything will still fit perfectly.

If you for example move a bulkhead (or several for that matter), you typically need to refit it to the hull skin. This is however quite easy using the Align to Ruler/Surface tool. You can even trim any number to control points located in any number of surfaces at the same time. Only to one "mould" surface/curve at the time though.

Resizing in VectorWorks essentially works in the same way though you can not edit any number of points and surfaces at the same time an surface fitting/trimming of for example bulheads and frames is a lot smoother in TouchCAD.

A nice feature in VectorWorks solids is that you can step back to earlier levels of solid activities and fix/update it without having to redo it from scratch.

/Claes

[CGN]

Great, Thanks for the response.

[Wil]

-----------------
Paul B
SW Lofts

SW really wasn't designed specifically for the task of Yacht Design, so it isn't as good a choice as something like MaxSurf.

However, your lofts can be solids and not only surfaces. All of the pics in my gallery are Base Lofts in Solidworks. That produces solids, not surfaces. I can modify any point in any sketch at any time.
-----------------

Actually you can do Surface, Solid, and Sheetmetal lofts (Lofted Bends). Sheetmetal and Solids are very different - Sheetmetal features come with it's own features but also it's own limitations. For example - as far as i know you can't use Sheetmetal as a cutting tool (please correct me if i'm wrong), I had to reproduce replicas of my sheetmetal features as surfaces so I could use them as cutting edges. Still worked out great though.

[yachty4000]

solidwork has its uses I no it was used to create all the internal moulding for a 46 foot cruiser racer which were milled direct from the model. And Ribtec also use it for there consel units on there ribs. It powerful and intandem with maxsurf has it place and uses. Its substancially better than rhino.

Examples http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&groupid=174998&ck= and http://www.mills-design.com/dk46.htm

[Wil]

So you really need other software to make company to solidworks, solidworks can't do everything, no plate developing, no easy hull fairing tools, you need this software and then export to solidworks.


Plate developing? Isn't that what the Sheetmetal features are about? (in Solidworks)

[seaarkmarine]

I havew been experimenting with Solidworks2000 as a boat design tool, I am wondering if anyone has any experience with using this program for boat design, I have used it extensively for mechanical design but as we all know boat design and mechanical design are quite different...any suggestions/help would be aprreciated. Thanks, Brandon

Hi Brandon,

I work for a aluminum boat building company and we just puchased Solidworks 2004 in the hopes that it could give us a competitive edge. So far, we haven't produce one single print since we've had it. If I can't figure out how to best put it to use, well there goes 10 thousand dollars down the drain.
I'm hoping I can buy a solidworks book that covers sketching in depth. The training I received (4 days or 32 hours) sucked. I wish I know someone that uses Solidworks for designing boats, that could train me.

Wes

[Danielsan]

Hi there,

I dont think SW is the best way to do hull design Maxsurf is a lot better and easyer.
But I am little bit used to work with SW it's kind a different to work with.

Don't look at the little me's I used them to get some ergonomic thinking :D

Greetz,

Daniel Peeters

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1573&stc=1

[seaarkmarine]

Hey,

I'm beginning to think hull design can't be done at all using Solidworks 2004.
Well, I have no choice, but to make it work. I will look into Maxsurf, when I have a chance, but for now I'm almost ready to sell my soul for some great tricks on the best approach.
Since, our boats are aluminum so we use frames in the hull for strength. How would you construct the frame using Solidworks if the hull had to be in sw as well?

Westley,

[Andrew Mason]

Westley

Solidworks is a great program, but it is not ideal for the work you are doing. It is not a hull design program and you would be better off using one of the dedicated hull design programs for that function.

Solidworks is very good for modelling objects with significant volume and it is excellent for designing solid or moulded parts.

For structure built out of thin plate parts you are better off using a system that is tailored for that purpose (i.e. not a solid modeller). We do a preliminary structural design system (named Workshop) for plate vessels and we link this to ShipConstructor for detailed design. ShipConstructor works within Autocad and is specifically set up for doing steel and aluminum vessels.

[Paul B]

Hey,

I'm beginning to think hull design can't be done at all using Solidworks 2004.
Well, I have no choice, but to make it work. I will look into Maxsurf, when I have a chance, but for now I'm almost ready to sell my soul for some great tricks on the best approach.
Since, our boats are aluminum so we use frames in the hull for strength. How would you construct the frame using Solidworks if the hull had to be in sw as well?

Westley,

You can probably build a hull using SW. I believe SW claims that the One World Team in the last America's Cup used their software. The attached is a loft in SW.

However, as far as I can tell it is best to use something like Andrew's MaxSurf to do the lofting and hydrostatics. Then you can import it into SW to do structural details.

SW does have some limitations as far as working with non-planar surfaces. In hulls/decks/foils there are a lot of non-planar surfaces and interfaces between non-planar surfaces.

[ludesign]

Hey,

I'm beginning to think hull design can't be done at all using Solidworks 2004.
Well, I have no choice, but to make it work. I will look into Maxsurf, when I have a chance, but for now I'm almost ready to sell my soul for some great tricks on the best approach.
Since, our boats are aluminum so we use frames in the hull for strength. How would you construct the frame using Solidworks if the hull had to be in sw as well?

Westley,

I primarily work with aluminum and I do all my hull fairing with lines, frames, bulkheads, stringers, etc. essentially all major panels in the boat. I think it is easier to do as much as possible in one program for example to make sure that all parts fit to one another. TouchCAD also does all major weight and center of gravity calculations and compile it in a worksheet (all parts have their individual weight or weight per area unit property). The built in unfolding feature allows me to unfold just about any shape and automatically send it to the Unfold view where I can compile a complete panel layout and optimize the use of material without loosing the dynamic link to the 3D model or any of its rather extensive parametric unfolding features (automatic X-Y coordinate measurements, panel and point numbering, alingment marks, overlaps etc.). TouchCAD does all this in a single unit and with no limitation to the number of panles that can be used. I essentially only use my CAD program (VectorWorks) to finalize the production drawings and a rendering program (Artlantis) for photo realistic renderings beyond the built in OpenGL rendering /fly-over/ walkthrough / animation / dynamic cut-throughs. www.touchcad.com

Claes Lundstrom

[Andrew Mason]

You can probably build a hull using SW. I believe SW claims that the One World Team in the last America's Cup used their software.

Oneworld used Maxsurf for their hull design, as did Alinghi, Team NZ and most of the other teams. Maxsurf has been used by the challenger and defender of the past 3 America's Cups.

All of the teams use other CAD systems in addition to Maxsurf for detailed appendage design, Finite Element Analysis and general design, and Solidworks is one of the most widely used, however Maxsurf remains the dominant system for actual development of AC hull shapes.

[Paul B]

Oneworld used Maxsurf for their hull design, as did Alinghi, Team NZ and most of the other teams. Maxsurf has been used by the challenger and defender of the past 3 America's Cups.

All of the teams use other CAD systems in addition to Maxsurf for detailed appendage design, Finite Element Analysis and general design, and Solidworks is one of the most widely used, however Maxsurf remains the dominant system for actual development of AC hull shapes.


That would be a better expalnation. I was at a SW user's meeting a while ago and the rep was making a big deal about the OW use. I specifically asked if they used it for the hull design and he said yes. Probably a bit of ignorance on the rep's part, but he sure wasn't going to say no if he wasn't sure. I doubted that it was so, since something like MaxSurf would be a better tool for that application.

[seaarkmarine]

Westley

Solidworks is a great program, but it is not ideal for the work you are doing. It is not a hull design program and you would be better off using one of the dedicated hull design programs for that function.

Solidworks is very good for modelling objects with significant volume and it is excellent for designing solid or moulded parts.

For structure built out of thin plate parts you are better off using a system that is tailored for that purpose (i.e. not a solid modeller). We do a preliminary structural design system (named Workshop) for plate vessels and we link this to ShipConstructor for detailed design. ShipConstructor works within Autocad and is specifically set up for doing steel and aluminum vessels.

Mr. Mason,

You pretty much told me what I was expecting. The only problem I have with your insightful advice, is the cost of ShipConstructor. Someday I hope to get some experience using that program, after reading information on it, some time ago, it was my first choice. Unfortunately, Solidworks is all I have.

[alumar]

We are at present building a radius chine design by Dudley Dix. All the frames and a large number of other components were NC cut. The cutting files were made with SW. With a few tricks the you can chop the frames into "live" components (If modifications are made on the model, all components are updated automatically). For nesting I used AutoCAD (www.alumaryachts.com).
I must say I am very happy with SW. Without any training and no experience with any other drawing program I managed to model the entire boat, thus allowing for (manual) calculation of stability, weight etc.
By NC-cutting the frames (incl. lofting floor!) you ensure that all dimensions are correct and save a really large amount of labour costs.

Re. plate development: The decks of our Dix 43 are not fully developed (rolled in one direction only) and can therefore be NC cut very easily.

The developed plating however was hand cut (templates). Creating the cutting files for such plating is very difficult. When welding Al the plating shrinks considerably. Thus pre-cut plates these will probably not fit as well as well as you may think.

A semi- or custom built aluminium yacht is a piece of art. Building her will always require a large amount of craftsmanship and patients. There is no way around it.

[Hans Friedel]

This company uses SW. But it is a bit tricky and they are rather alone

You could buy Rhino and make the surfaces in Rhino and then import the surfaces to SW.

http://www.kock-marin.se/index.html

Hans

[seaarkmarine]

We are at present building a radius chine design by Dudley Dix. All the frames and a large number of other components were NC cut. The cutting files were made with SW. With a few tricks the you can chop the frames into "live" components (If modifications are made on the model, all components are updated automatically). For nesting I used AutoCAD (www.alumaryachts.com).
I must say I am very happy with SW. Without any training and no experience with any other drawing program I managed to model the entire boat, thus allowing for (manual) calculation of stability, weight etc.
By NC-cutting the frames (incl. lofting floor!) you ensure that all dimensions are correct and save a really large amount of labour costs.

Re. plate development: The decks of our Dix 43 are not fully developed (rolled in one direction only) and can therefore be NC cut very easily.

The developed plating however was hand cut (templates). Creating the cutting files for such plating is very difficult. When welding Al the plating shrinks considerably. Thus pre-cut plates these will probably not fit as well as well as you may think.

A semi- or custom built aluminium yacht is a piece of art. Building her will always require a large amount of craftsmanship and patients. There is no way around it.

Thanks Alumar,

I appreciate your encouragement, it's nice knowing your enjoy using sw, and I'm amazed that you could model an entire boat without any training or experience. Did you come across a good sw manual, tell me, I want to buy one. Someday, if I every get were I can operate SW efficiently, I'll send you some email of my work, so you can tell me what you think.

Westley
seaarkwestley@yahoo.com

[seaarkmarine]

This company uses SW. But it is a bit tricky and they are rather alone

You could buy Rhino and make the surfaces in Rhino and then import the surfaces to SW.

http://www.kock-marin.se/index.html

Hans

Hey Hans,

When I last imported a 3D Autocad drawing into Solidworks, my zero thickness Hull surfaces, all become 2D flat surfaces and the frames remained 3d objects. Will the same happen if I import a Rhino 3D hull surfaces into SolidWorks? I thought any hull plating in Solidworks has to have thickness otherwise, its a surface that can't be used to calculate weight.

Westley
seaarkwestley@yahoo.com

[Hans Friedel]

You have to convert the dwg file into a Iges file.

Hans

[seaarkmarine]

You have to convert the dwg file into a Iges file.

Hans

Thanks for the iges reminder, I just skipped a step.

On a brighter note things are looking up now. I just spoke with someone at "C. Raymond Hunt Associates, they do most of our hull design work. Well, they use Prosurf and Rhino and are willing to send us information in those formats. They have been sending it to us in Autocad, but now since I've asked otherwise, I can start taking their Rhino drawings and using them in Solidworks. This will save me so much time! I'm so happy!

Seek and ye shall find.

Westley

[AndyRed3D]

Hi Brandon,

I work for a aluminum boat building company and we just puchased Solidworks 2004 in the hopes that it could give us a competitive edge. So far, we haven't produce one single print since we've had it. If I can't figure out how to best put it to use, well there goes 10 thousand dollars down the drain.
I'm hoping I can buy a solidworks book that covers sketching in depth. The training I received (4 days or 32 hours) sucked. I wish I know someone that uses Solidworks for designing boats, that could train me.

Wes


Hi Wes

I have been using SW for about a year and a half, and I think you should stick with it. The training we got was pretty good, but even so it took me a while to get my head round things. Have you got good technical support? I certainly got my money's worth from our guys, and on a few occasions they have gone away and worked out how to do something, to show me. So after a year and a half I can now create some pretty interesting shapes and have just designed an intricate deck layout matched to a hull, with curves in all sorts of directions.

SW isn't as good at producing crazy organic shapes like a human face, in which case you'd want to use something like Rhino. But it can model just about anything you can machine etc. For example I have seen a whole engine modelled in SW.

The best part though is the ability (IF the model is built correctly) to create parametric features, such as hull frames that will update if you alter the original hull shape.

You can model hulls in Solidworks, I've done it a couple of times, but it's much better to originate them in something like Maxsurf which is easier and gives you the all important hydrostatic data to feedback into your design as it evolves. In fact you can do this in SW as well, but it involves splitting the hull into two parts at the waterline, and then measuring the volumes etc of the underwater section - which is cumbersome and time consuming.

I know of someone who might be able to help as he seems to be able to do some pretty awesome structural stuff in SW now... Check out:

www.djaweb.co.uk

I hope this is of help, and good luck - stick with it.

Andy

[AndyRed3D]

Hey Hans,

When I last imported a 3D Autocad drawing into Solidworks, my zero thickness Hull surfaces, all become 2D flat surfaces and the frames remained 3d objects. Will the same happen if I import a Rhino 3D hull surfaces into SolidWorks? I thought any hull plating in Solidworks has to have thickness otherwise, its a surface that can't be used to calculate weight.

Westley
seaarkwestley@yahoo.com

If you go to Tools > Mass Properties I think you can calculate the surface area of an object (in an assembly). If you need to have plate thickness to calculate the weight, then you could "Thicken" the iges surface you import from Rhino.

Or if the hull surface is defined as the outside of the hull (not the inside of the plate) then you could create the hull surfaces as a closed solid body (knit surfaces first) and then do "Shell" to hollow it out to the correct plate thickness. You could then create the frames or whatever from the inside surface.

[seaarkmarine]

Thanks Andy,

I will stick with it (SW). But my technical support lacks interest. The guy who originally trained us, left the company shortly thereafter. I will look at that site you recommend (www.djaweb.com.uk).

Maybe sometime you can let me take a look at some of your work?

Thanks again for the positive note, Westley