Rowing Sailboat/Sailing Rowboat Race Rule

[sharpii2]

Hi All:

Here's an idea I got while reading up on the 'Water Tribe' races down in Florida. It is an attempt to encourage sailboats that row well and row boats that can sail well for people who don't want the usual specialized craft that are available today.

So here goes.

LENGTH VS. SAIL AREA ROOT RULE

The concept here is for fair competition between sail powered boats,
Oar/paddle assisted sail boats, and sail assisted oar/paddle boats.
The central idea is that, as a boat gets longer, it gets successively
easier to move through the water. It is for this reason that most 19th
century rowboats were at least 14ft long and most 'sea kayaks' are
around 18ft long. Since human muscle is an inherently limited source
of power, a one person paddle or row boat has a limit to how far and
how fast it can go in a day. A sailboat has no such limit as long as
there is plenty of wind. A race between a 20ft sailing dinghy and a
20ft sea kayak would hardly be fair, if there was any kind of wind
blowing.

Why would anyone want to have such a race?

Because sailboats and oar/paddle boats have perhaps become too
specialized.

In an age of ever increasing fuel costs, people are going
to need a boat that does not need an engine, yet is easy and quick to
set up and can be moved about on the water when there is no wind. A
pure sailboat rarely meets this need. Most are designed for racing and
have rigs designed for maximum efficiency up wind. These rigs tend to
be tall and require rigidly extended stays which need to be tightend
before use. Such boats also require a great deal of initial stability
to hold up these rigs, so need either deep, heavy, ballast or wide
beam. Neither of which is good for rowing or paddling. Rowing/paddling
boats tend to be equally specialized. Extreme examples tend to be long,
narrow, and somewhat tippy.

The idea here is to create a compromise. Something that has the best
combination between sailing and row/paddling capability. The race course
sets up about the most perfect laboratory of what works and what doesn't
that humans can devise.

But any such contest must be reasonably fair. So design trade offs must
be forced. Allowing unlimited length will merely insure that the longest
boat wins. So I propose a trade off betweenlength and sail area. The idea
being that a longest boat would have no sail
area at all. Whereas a shorter boat will be allowed more and more sail
as it gets shorter and shorter. If all boats in this race displace
roughly the same amount, This could be an interesting trade off. The
shorter boat would have a much higher Displacement/Length ratio and
should be harder to row or paddle. It will also have a shorter water
line length also making it harder to row/paddle at any reasonable speed.
To counter this disadvantage, it will be allowed more sail area.

This, in itself, creates an interesting requirement. The shorter boat
will have to be rowed/paddled at the same time it is being sailed to be
at all competititive with the longer boat. This would be introducing a
whole new skill to boating.

To do this, I propose one basic formula along with three stipulations.

FORMULA:

The length of the boat, in feet, will be subtracted from 20.0. What is
left will be squared. And that, as long as it meets the following three
stipulations, will be the allowed sail area.

STIPULATION #1

An absolute limit of 100 square feet will be imposed.

STIPULATION #2

A 'bank' amount of 20.0 sf of sail can be added until the the new sail
area either equals 50 sf, or the 20 sf bank is used up.

STIPULATION #3

The boat must be entitled to at least 4.0 sf on its own to be allowed
any sail area at all.

Here are some examples of boat lengths and the amount of sail they
would be allowed to carry under this proposed rule:

_9ft_____100 sf (stipulation #1)
10ft_____100 sf
11ft______81 sf
12ft______64 sf
13ft______50 sf (stipulation #2) (49+1=50)
14ft______50 sf
15ft______45 sf (25+20=45)
16ft______36 sf
17ft______29 sf
18ft______24 sf
18+ft_____00 sf (stipulation #3)

Now I will compare one boat from each extreme that is allowed to carry
sail as well as one in the average range. Hopefully, I will be able to
demonstrate the equity of my proposal. I will show three values:

The displacement length ratio, the sail area/displacement ratio, and
the square root of the length multiplied by 0.75:

(each boat displaces 400 pounds and is assumed to have a water line equal
to its over all length to keep things simple)

10ft___D/L=183___S/D=29.5___Length sqrt X 0.75=2.25
14ft___D/L=067___S/D=14.6___Length sqrt x 0.75=2.80
18ft___D/L=020___S/D=07.1___Length sqrt x 0.75=3.20

As I hope I have shown, the 10ft boat will be under sail a lot as it
struggles to keep up with the 3.0 knots that the 18ft will be able to
make at a more leisurely rowing/paddling rate. The 18ft boat will probably
only use its sail when the wind is blowing well because it will have so
little of it. The 14ft boat will be nicely in between those extremes.

[alan white]

This is interesting. No wind and the longest boat wins (if the sailor can drive it's length). Lots of wind and the planing hulls take off. It's a question of horsepower.
If the weather couldn't be predicted, and only one boat were allowed per sailor, I'd be in the 10 footer (maybe 10 1/2) with 100 sq ft. It will be most able to plane at a lower wind speed, since length isn't needed to plane so much as the right underbody. Then, ghosting, the shorter boat again excels. Reaching hull speed requires some real physical fitness in longer boats, but hull speed for a 10 foot boat (4.23 kts), while slower than its 16 ft competitor's 5.36 kts, will not be so tiring to maintain. The difference may drop to 1/2 a knot once the longer boat gets tired. If the wind then arrives, goodbye 16 footer, who won't get up on a plane without a hurricane, goodbye 9 footer, who is insane but inspiring to watch as he tries to climb the first 12" wave until his enormous sail lifts him clear of the water.
Sounds like fun!

Alan

[sharpii2]

Thanks, Alan.

This was originally intended for multi day races where it is more difficult to predict the weather. The 'Water Tribe' races all cover considerable distances. The shortest covers over 60 miles. The longest circles the state of Floriday (requiring a 40 mile portage).

Some parts of the race are at open sea where there is usually plenty of wind, and some parts occure where there is hardly any wind at all, which makes the design trade offs that much more vexing.

They have four classes of boats and the fourth class is 'unlimited' sail boats.

The 'unlimited' is a bit of a misnomer as the crew has to be able to drag the boat up the beach at each check point above the surf line.

The winner of the 'Everglades Challenge' was a 22 ft sailboat designed to plane. It had two crew.

I wanted to have sail boats at lesser level of competitition such as 'class three' which is canoes and kayaks converted to sail. I thought smaller sailboats should be able to compete in this same class, but the chief wasn't buying.

I came up with this idea to make sure that, if let in, the sail boats would never chronicly best the converted canoes and kayaks.

These boats typically carry around 125 lbs of stores and equipment.

BTW Your 10.5 footer would only be allowed to carry 90 sf of sail.

20-10.5=9.5. 9.5*9.5=90.25.

As I hope you can see, winning with a shorter boat that planes may not be all that easy. Particularily if the longer boat crew is allowed to row/paddle at the same time it is sailing.

But, that being said, an 8 footer was entered in class four and it came in 10th in the 'Everglades challenge'. That race was a particularily windy race.

Bob

[alan white]

Yes, I realized 10 1/2 would mean lower sail area. Sounds like the races would be fun. They would spawn all sorts of hybrids and curiosities.
A lot more fun than the stiffy blue-nose patrician class races that I see up here. A bit more egalitarian.

Alan

[gonzo]

In any wind a moth foiler would always win. Narrow sailing canoes would also have a huge advantage. This formula would create an extreme design like most formulas do.

[alan white]

Would the Moth foiler get up and go if it displaced 400 lbs?

A.

[frosh]

Alan, obviously a 400lb. Moth would need a lot of "******" to get up.
Why do the Americans always insist on such heavy small boats anyway?
Is the 400lb meant to be boat, rig, crew person and enough stores to last a week, or what?
If it was boat only 150lb. seems ample, even with a rig.
Looks like the v word is banned from this forum. :eek:

[alan white]

Alan, obviously a 400lb. Moth would need a lot of "******" to get up.
Why do the Americans always insist on such heavy small boats anyway?
Is the 400lb meant to be boat, rig, crew person and enough stores to last a week, or what?
If it was boat only 150lb. seems ample, even with a rig.
Looks like the v word is banned from this forum. :eek:

Americans insist on small heavy boats? I didn't think so. I think the meaning of the displacement figure was "all up", regardless of how the weight was apportioned. Usually a small boat has weight, and displacement is what happens by adding people and gear.
I think what was meant here was that the boat, sailer, and whatever else went in it could not be less than 400 lbs.
If there were no displacement minimum, a foiler could compete, and the whole egalitarian principle of the formula would be for nothing.
The idea, I think, was to open up racing to many varied craft already owned.
I like this approach because you don't stand on shore watching a dozen identical boats racing, but you happen to own a no-class boat.
The Moth, incidentally, is a great formula because it encourages not just sailing expertise, but design expertise as well. Anyone can be a hero who is smart enough. Anyone with money can buy a first rate regular class boat, but not anyone can buy a first rate design that will win. That takes ingenuity.

Alan

[sharpii2]

Yes, I realized 10 1/2 would mean lower sail area. Sounds like the races would be fun. They would spawn all sorts of hybrids and curiosities.
A lot more fun than the stiffy blue-nose patrician class races that I see up here. A bit more egalitarian.

Alan

Precisely.

I in vision this a blue jeans/sweatshirt event or series of events that would be raced with the wind from zero to, say, 20mph. Some days you would row/paddle all day and others all but the longest boats would be sailing.

Bob

[sharpii2]

In any wind a moth foiler would always win. Narrow sailing canoes would also have a huge advantage. This formula would create an extreme design like most formulas do.

Perhaps foilers should be banned for this reason.

Lets face it, foiling is an expensive and tricky technology. Maybe thats why we don't see fleets of foilers right now. Despite their blistering speed.

I have not yet heard of any foilers going camp cruising yet, but I will not be surprised if it happens.

It's not so much that I am down on foilers, but rather I think they should race only amongst themselves.

Their inheirent speed advantage practicly mandates that.

Who knows. Maybe foilers will someday replace conventional sailboats.

But then again that's what was once said of multihulls.

Bob

[frosh]

Around three years ago I decided to design and build an outrigger canoe for 2 persons with a parachute spinnaker, carbon mast, and minimal sailing hardware. This ended up being 22'6" in length with a 14 ft carbon windsurfer mast, and a 66 sq. ft. spinnaker. My son and I had endless hours of fun paddling upwind and then sailing back to the starting point. After a few outings I had the idea that this if it was a development class with certain broad rules and specs, it would be a fantastic and interesting form of racing. Sometimes in light winds the spinnaker gives a lower speed than paddles, so you then douse the spinnaker. Also paddling a fairly large outrigger canoe into a strong breeze is physically challenging. In strong winds the downhill ride is very quick and exhilarating. I saw the potential of a great competition emphasizing paddling skill, physical endurance, and sailing ability. Furthermore it could be quite tactical deciding on what angles of the race course the spinnaker would be a viable option, and when it wouldnt be. I never followed up as I believe that Australians generally would not see this as a worthwhile form of sport. Aussies would much prefer to be full on canoe buffs, or into pure sailcraft, not a hybrid boat, as mine is. I might be wrong about this, but a strongly suspect that it would not attract any interest in my part of the world. More the pity though, as regular racing in small boats although fun, has been "done to death" so to speak, and is definitely in decline in Australia.
If any Aussies are interested in this concept please speak up and I will provide more info on the boat. :)

[gonzo]

A Moth with crew will displace close to 400 lbs.

[frosh]

Hi Gonzo, I refer back to my comments that Americans always build heavy small boats. You may not agree with this statement, but you say that a Moth with a crew will weigh close to 400lb.
Sorry, but not in Australia. Fastacraft foiler Moths weigh 30kg or less fully rigged. This is 66lb. Australia' top Mothie Rohan Veal weighs around 70kg. This is 154 lb. Even allowing for some clothing and buoyancy jacket, say 10lb. this all totals 230lb. Much less than 400lb. Some-one please come up with a realistic set of facts that show me that Americans do NOT build their small boats too heavy! :confused:

[sharpii2]

Around three years ago I decided to design and build an outrigger canoe for 2 persons with a parachute spinnaker, carbon mast, and minimal sailing hardware. This ended up being 22'6" in length with a 14 ft carbon windsurfer mast, and a 66 sq. ft. spinnaker. My son and I had endless hours of fun paddling upwind and then sailing back to the starting point. After a few outings I had the idea that this if it was a development class with certain broad rules and specs, it would be a fantastic and interesting form of racing. Sometimes in light winds the spinnaker gives a lower speed than paddles, so you then douse the spinnaker. Also paddling a fairly large outrigger canoe into a strong breeze is physically challenging. In strong winds the downhill ride is very quick and exhilarating. I saw the potential of a great competition emphasizing paddling skill, physical endurance, and sailing ability. Furthermore it could be quite tactical deciding on what angles of the race course the spinnaker would be a viable option, and when it wouldnt be. I never followed up as I believe that Australians generally would not see this as a worthwhile form of sport. Aussies would much prefer to be full on canoe buffs, or into pure sailcraft, not a hybrid boat, as mine is. I might be wrong about this, but a strongly suspect that it would not attract any interest in my part of the world. More the pity though, as regular racing in small boats although fun, has been "done to death" so to speak, and is definitely in decline in Australia.
If any Aussies are interested in this concept please speak up and I will provide more info on the boat. :)


Fosh:

If I may tender some gentle critisizm.

Your boat may be great fun for you and your son, but at 22ft it is quite long. And, seeing that you only mention down wind sailing, it seems a little lacking in capability.

I can understand why it is not widely copied.

When I dreamed up this idea, part of the goal was to keep the boats within reasonable lengths. That is why I noodled it so an over 18 footer would end up with no sail.

Another goal was to encourage the developement of good multi purpose boats that went without engines.

Actually, the genisis of this idea goes quite far back for me. I thought about what if a sail boat race is schedualed and the wind doesn't show up?

Or the race has to be completed within a certain deadline and there is insuficient wind for the speed such a deadline requires.

In short, I thought of this as more a racing class for developement than a developement class for racing.

The hope was that these boats may be raced on Sunday but actually used for angling, excercise, and just plain relaxing during the rest of the week.

Bob

P.S.- Your boat probably would have done quite well in this year's 'Water Tribe' 'Everglades Challenge'. The race was around 300 miles long and mostly down wind. And the winds were quite strong this year. Your boat would have been a fairly good Class Four entry. In class four, length and sail area are not limited, but you have to get under some pretty low bridges and through a passage way that is 11 ft wide. You and your one man crew must also be able to haul your boat and gear up the beach past the surf line. From how you discribed your boat, it seems like it would have met those criteria quite admireably.

[frosh]

Sharpii2 thanks for your well expressed comments. First of all why did you start this very interesting thread in this section, when you would have more exposure under "Sailboats"? Also what has this to do with a true motorsailer? Not meant to be a criticism, I am just curious.
My Outrigger canoe is quite long but I carry it all on an MG station wagon, on roof racks, so for me it is not that big nor heavy.
My inspiration was from the wonderful Hawiain OC6 which is usually paddled by six people but many have sailing rigs. I have only one son so I reduced the OC6 to a 2 man version. It was never planned to be anything more than a one-off for our own pleasure. Also I was desperate to find out if I could successfully design and build a boat in cold molded plywood as I have always been a great admirer of this boat building technique. I am happy to say that it turned out even better than expected and will definitely outlive me and maybe my son also, as it is bulletproof but very light. BTW it is carbon sheathed. Rowing boats for recreation or racing if they are not full-on racing shells (Olympic games stuff) are almost unknown in Australia. Also paddling with a single blade as the Polynesians do seems far more interesting than a double blade, which I have done also in the past.
I know that in my part of the world the competition that you envisage has no chance of happening, but I will follow the progress of your proposal in the US with interest.

[frosh]

I forgot to mention a couple of important things. In Perth we have strong winds most of Summer, and then very little wind at other times. As we have sailboards and a few other sailcraft, we were looking for an activity for Winter which is not too cold in Perth, when we could get out on the water in almost no wind and have fun.
Also I said the spinnaker is for downwind use. This is not strictly correct. It sails really well at an angle of up to 45 degrees of either side of dead downwind.
This makes a total range of 90 degrees. An asymetric spinnaker would probably increase the range from 90 to 130 degrees. The main hull has no daggerboard nor leeboard, nor do I want one, so that upwind sailing was never something I wanted for this boat. The main purpose was really to get exercise and have fun on no or low wind days.

[alan white]

Hello Frosh,

I designed a proa for a training daysailer competition sponsored bu Woodenboat (a skiff won). Mine was simple ply, two seats back to back, tramp, daggerboard, and non-reversing in direction. The float was designed to supply counterweight or bouyancy depending on the tack. I think it weighed 50 lbs, and was spaced far enpough outboard to make the whole boat 8 ft wide. The design of the hull was like a long dory. I should have built it, since the idea of proas really appeals to me. The idea was to stay in your cockpit most of the time and use the tramp for real speed when the occasion permitted. The float was as long as the hull, and had just enough bouyancy to float the displacement, if I remember.

[sharpii2]

Sharpii2 thanks for your well expressed comments. First of all why did you start this very interesting thread in this section, when you would have more exposure under "Sailboats"? Also what has this to do with a true motorsailer? Not meant to be a criticism, I am just curious...

I did it because I think of these boats as human powered motorsailers. I don't think I would have gotten much out of the sailboat crowd, because they tend to be into to either big boats or pure sailboat racing.

I thought that these tiny boats (400 lbs and < 18ft long) could provide interesting but relatively low cost motorsailer experiments.

I have often thought of a type of motorsailor I call a 'dromon'. It has a rig that can sail all points of sailing, but can only propel the boat in moderate to strong winds.

The mechanical propulsion must do the rest.

But because the sailing rig is capable of sailing out of trouble, the mechanicl propulsion does not have to be all that powerful. A boat like this would be a real gas sipper.

As for my proposed class, I would expect to see a lot of single outriggers as time went on. In my mind, a single outrigger would make a perfect 'dromon', because the rig would not have to be very tall in proportion to the single outrigger's beam to work. It, therefore, would be much easier to keep upright in strong winds.

Bob

[alan white]

Well Bob, I can see that your combining of two aspects of propulsion is more than a way to create a new formula. It is an illustration of two aspects of perception, the finite and the infinite, drawn together into a single experience.
The motivation to do so tells me you have an innate understanding of what makes for balance and integrity in all things,
I mean, um, how do you weigh the boats? Four men, like pall-bearers on bathroom scales?

A.

[frosh]

Hi Sharpii2, As the rules of this new concept are not yet set in stone, would you consider a significant change to the all up weight minimum. A 400lb minimum for what will be maybe an 11 ft, one man sailing craft all up, seems hugely excessive to me and almost every other small boat builder in Australia. :eek:

[messabout]

Frosh:
Americans do not build heavy boats on purpose.. At least not small boats. When I was a kid, an old and wise sailmaker told me that for every pound of boat and crew, the boat must push a pound of water out of the way. That may not be a technical absolute but the idea is leading in the right direction. I never forgot that gem of wisdom.

My little 16 foot Sharpie, fully rigged, weighs 136 pounds. I was sorely disappointed as I thought it too heavy. It has provisions for rowing and also a provision for mounting a small motor so it fits into the class thing herewith discussed. I once built a Moth that weighed in at 54 pounds with rig. That was before we'd ever heard of CF and before the modern moth. Most of we go fast sailors will work for hours to remove a pound of weight. The people who build heavy boats are those that are mass producing fiberglass blobs with a chopper gun and rich resin mixtures. Fanatical sailors do not buy those but casual weekend type sailors do. The casual sailor is more concerned with the perception of durability and visual appeal than he is in good engineering. We do have a large population of non sailors who buy sail boats.

Are you confusing our boats with our automobiles? Americans have an irrational love affair with family automobiles that are built like a tank and weigh 6000 pounds and more. We'll get over that foolishness as soon as U.S. fuel prices catch up to the world market prices.

Sharpii2; Your idea has merit and I can certify that it is fun. Sometimes the guys at gatherings of traditional small sailboats race. Paddling is legal, one may get out and push if desired. It is not legal to throw empty beer cans into the other guys boat, only full cans that have been suitably chilled. Also, protests are not allowed. None of these shindigs have had a set of rules to make the boats more evenly matched. Keep working on this idea it might catch on.

My own pipe dream is to organize sailboat drag races. Simply a short straight course of 150 yards or so. Timed runs through the gates will settle arguments and encourage wagering. Time the boats from running starts as well as standing starts.

[frosh]

Hi, what do you mean that Americans don't build heavy boats on purpose? I do NOT refer to commercial mass producer boat builders at all. Simply the home builder enthusiast. For example if you were building a Moth for general fun sailing out of marine ply, what thickness would you use for the skin?
You give me your considered answer, then I will give you mine answer to the same question.
I am definitely not getting confused with automobiles, which is a whole different serious problem for US car makers and consumers in the US. But this topic is not for this forum.
Regards, Sam

[sharpii2]

Well Bob, I can see that your combining of two aspects of propulsion is more than a way to create a new formula. It is an illustration of two aspects of perception, the finite and the infinite, drawn together into a single experience.
The motivation to do so tells me you have an innate understanding of what makes for balance and integrity in all things,
I mean, um, how do you weigh the boats? Four men, like pall-bearers on bathroom scales?

A.

Allan:

The all up displacement of around 400 lbs is a suggestion, not a requirement.

I figure with a 150 pound person and about 125 lbs of gear, the boat will displace at least 275 lbs even if the boat itself is made of air.

Most people I know weigh considerably more than 150 lbs, myself included.

And the boat itself is going to weigh something, isn't it?

Frosh mentioned in an earlier post that a Moth champ weighed in at 154 lbs.

I think that is cool. But, as much as I would like a race in which skinny teenagers can win, I don't want one which can be won ONLY by skinny teenagers.

BTW I should have put a 125 lb 'cargo' requirement in my proposed rule.

This, I hope, will insure the boats can be used for things other than racing, which, in my mind, is a big problem in the sailboat field.

I think a Moth with a human propulsion system in good working order could do quite well in the sort of race I propose. But, I also think that on a low or no wind day, longer boats would dominate.

Actually, I have no idea of just what proportion of boat length to sail area would come to dominate. But I would hope that designs that row/paddle well and have handy and easy to unship rigs could at least stand some chance of winning.

I can even imagine a series of races these boats could compete in in which even completing the race confers some points to the season's over all score with fleet placement, other than 1st, 2nd, or 3rd is considered as well.

Perhaps the scoreing of each race would start with one point for the boat that comes in last, two points for the boat that comes in ahead of it, and on and on up to the boat that comes in first whose points wil equal the number of boats sailing that day. Has anyone ever tried a point system as bizzare as this.

I personally think that good sport is about much more than winning. It should be about fellowship as well.

Bob

[alan white]

Allan:

The all up displacement of around 400 lbs is a suggestion, not a requirement.

I figure with a 150 pound person and about 125 lbs of gear, the boat will displace at least 275 lbs even if the boat itself is made of air.

Most people I know weigh considerably more than 150 lbs, myself included.

And the boat itself is going to weigh something, isn't it?

Frosh mentioned in an earlier post that a Moth champ weighed in at 154 lbs.

I think that is cool. But, as much as I would like a race in which skinny teenagers can win, I don't want one which can be won ONLY by skinny teenagers.

BTW I should have put a 125 lb 'cargo' requirement in my proposed rule.

This, I hope, will insure the boats can be used for things other than racing, which, in my mind, is a big problem in the sailboat field.

I think a Moth with a human propulsion system in good working order could do quite well in the sort of race I propose. But, I also think that on a low or no wind day, longer boats would dominate.

Actually, I have no idea of just what proportion of boat length to sail area would come to dominate. But I would hope that designs that row/paddle well and have handy and easy to unship rigs could at least stand some chance of winning.

I can even imagine a series of races these boats could compete in in which even completing the race confers some points to the season's over all score with fleet placement, other than 1st, 2nd, or 3rd is considered as well.

Perhaps the scoreing of each race would start with one point for the boat that comes in last, two points for the boat that comes in ahead of it, and on and on up to the boat that comes in first whose points wil equal the number of boats sailing that day. Has anyone ever tried a point system as bizzare as this.

I personally think that good sport is about much more than winning. It should be about fellowship as well.

Bob

The point system could be fun to apply---- Everyone starts with, say 100 points. For instance, boaters arrive to the race. At that point, they place "point bets" based on what they feel their chances are that day. The bets are sealed until the end of the race. A boat sure to lose bets on average not too much (or nothing), but the ones with chances bet higher, based on hubris, and the reverse happens when opposite weather conditions occur. Now the boats on the opposite end of the spectrum bet high.
In this way, no weather condition favors anyone. More than just sailing or rowing, it becomes a mental game, often with high stakes, with excitement the whole way through. Everyone's motivated because they can always put it all on the line. Braggarts get their just desserts and "secret weapons" take on a whole new meaning. After the race the bets are made public. The winner is always the first to cross the finish line, and yet might have won nothing. The second place might very well have bet the farm, and has nothing left. Third place might be saving his points for the next race, and so only lost a few. If ten races are run, it would be possible to reach a 102,400 points theoretically (I think). It would be wild!

A.
A.

[frosh]

Hi US compatriots. What is it with the weight problem? I don't mean to offend but what is freaky about a grown man weighing a normal 154lb?
Most people I know weigh considerably more than 150 lbs, myself included. QUOTE
Also what is the 125lb gear? Are we taking tents, gas bottles. pots and pans and canned food for a week?
It is only a race for a few hours, is it not? I would have thought a protein bar and an energy drink (total weight 2 lbs) would be ample.
Honestly I don't get it. Sure I can build a small boat out of half inch ply, but it becomes harder to transport, costs more to build.And it wiill paddle or row with a huge effort, making you tired in about 15 minutes. And it will sail about as fast as an Optimist dinghy. In my book none of this is much fun. Anyway it is purely theoretical for me, as Aussies would never go for this type of event IMHO
Best of luck with it; seriously.

[alan white]

Where I live used to be one of, if not THE busiest port in the world. They say you could walk clear across the Penobscot river (1000 ft) by stepping from ship to ship.
Boys grew up on the river, and could sail practically before they could walk. The town catered to a sailing culture. Sails were everywhere on the river, for work and pleasure. Cutting classes and going out on the river to investigate ships of all kinds from every corner of the Earth was every boy's dream.
Today, not one marine dealer within a 20 mile radius sells sailboats. They are seen occasionally---- Sunfishes and a few other plastic boats---- on lakes and ponds, but perhaps one person in a hundred around here knows how to sail. Most have never been on a sailboat, even as a passenger.
Instead, jetskis wail all day up and down any stretch of water with more than a foot of depth. Almost every boat except cheap aluminum jon boats is styled the same--- they look like they were designed by sneaker manufacturers with silly curves on top of curves and stupid graphics (the obligatory "Italian fashion signature", a strange whizzy S-curve in light teal and bronze, the same as is seen on every motor home and camper--- God knows why).
On the coast, thins are different. Rich kids on Summer vacation have parents who belong to expensive yacht clubs. Every yacht club has a class race schedule or two, so a brand new boat is ordered by the parents if the kid wants to win, an Optimist or a US 14 or whatever they're called.
So there is this split, at least between the larger middle and lower middle class group, and the wealthy Summer coast dwellers and native-born blue-bloods.
It's a matter of exposure. Kids around here may never step aboard a sailboat, let alone discover a new way to have fun.
This is why such a race as described in this thread makes sense. Anyone can race, be exposed to every kind of boat, and begin in a way that gets their feet wet without having to spend much or get a co-signer on a loan for a $6000 14 ft class boat.
Later, a few will become unsatisfied with just participating. They will investigate what makes a boat go fast, maybe build their own.
To reach them, however, it is useless to demand they compete with the most sophisticated designs and builders.

When I learned to sail, it was because a girl I knew had a Sunfish, and I borrowed it a lot, went out alone where nobody could see me, and mastered the boat. I didn't want to be seen screwing up. It seems this is a similar case, where a kid or an adult could break into sailing (and rowing) through the back door.

A.

[messabout]

Yes Frosh we are "off topic yet", but it is all in good fun. Let us agree that weight is the enemy of high performance. My own preference is decidedly in the light is better direction. But there are compromises that we must make that are a result of design which will influence our choice of material.

A hull with rounded sections can have a thinner skin and remain sufficiently stiff. In the case of a boat with flat sections one must account for the stiffness requirement by increasing the skin thickness or using a large number of frames. My little sharpie has a 9mm bottom and 6mm sides. Anything less and it would pant or oil can badly unless there were numerous frames which I did not want.

The old time Yankee boat builders often built them them with robust scantlings. Aparrently they wanted them to last for a hundred years. The New Englanders of the northeast US are still doing that sort of thing. They are a practical lot and while those boaters enjoy a fair turn of speed they are hesitant to sacrifice durability and hardheaded Yankee tradition to saving a few pounds of weight. In fact many of them will argue doggedly that heavy boats are better. The argument is that a heavy boat will better carry it's way through rough water and carry way through a tack or jibe. They dont give a damn for Newtons F=Ma. Our light boats will respond to a puff and theirs will just continue as before. OK that is just one mind set and that works for those who embrace it.

The dinghy racing sailor is cut from a different cloth. Some of our performance gurus like the Geougeon brothers have been at the worlds fore front of ultra light weight design and construction for both dinghys and larger boats. Way back in time (like 1904) there was a now famous builder named Rushton. He built canoes that weighed 11.5 pounds. Rushton obviosly did not have the advantages of epoxy or carbon or anything else exotic. Today we have numerous builders of kayaks and canoes that use Kevlar and or carbon to produce boats that weigh under 20 pounds. There are legions of other American sailors and builders who burn boundless energy, and lots of money, in their quest for light and fast boats.

I'll wager that there are Aussies a plenty, Tasmanians and Kiwis too, who will opt for a heavily built boat. It is all a matter of end use and personal persuasion.

[frosh]

Hi Messabout, I was almost about to leave this thread, (1) because I couldn't seem to get anyone in the US to understand that a small sailboat doesn't need to weigh 200lb or more for the hull only, and still be strong enough not to pant and last at least 15 years of regular sailing. (2) Because I am convinced that even though regular dinghy sailing is in obvious decline in Australia, Aussies are not of the right temperament to ever adopt this hybrid style of boat racing. However I personally find it quite fascinating and can't leave this thread!
Now to the main thing I wanted to say; hull skin thickness which is a large factor in total boat weight.
I built my 18"6" tri main hull in marine ply and WRC frames. The hull is also fully decked which will add a bit more weight than if it was an open boat.
Bulkheads internally and a large area of the deck is 4mm thick.
Bottom skin is 2mm made by a unique method (in my belief) of cold molding, one layer only. Sheathing of the bottom ply is with one layer of 100 gsm fibreglass of very tight weave, and epoxy resin. You cannot even flex this bottom more than a 2 mm using all the force that you can muster, pushing the botton with your hand.
The topsides are simply 2mm thick marine ply. Epoxy coated inside and out, and no fibreglass sheathing at all, and a polyurethane paint finish on the outside.
By carefully engineering the panel structure there is almost no flexing of the topsides when you push hard with your hand. This boat has sailed in a proa configuration and I estimate that we have exceeded 15 knots a couple of times. There was no panting of any panels, and the whole structure was extremely rigid even at that speed. There must be something wrong in the framing design if a 16 ft. sharpie needs 6mm and 9 mm marine ply to overcome the tendency of the panels to pant. I am not trying to put you down by stating this.
BTW I am not a trained boatbuilder, nor ever a professional craftsman of any sort. I am well read, and experienced in boat building of small craft, and completely self taught. BUT, what I have built, has always worked well and the thickest ply I have ever used for boats, my largest is 23 ft. long is 4mm ply. Quite honestly, I don't see the need to exceed 4 mm for any small boat sailed by 1,2 or 3 people under 20 ft. long.

[alan white]

4 mm, or a bit less than 3/16", is not suitable for the needs of many people.
I can understand that to some people, speed is the primary goal.
My own boat is heavy, a fifteen foot gaffer with perhaps a 1500 lb displacement. While docile, and not particularly weatherly, she carries 155 sq ft of mainsl and soon shall have another 30 sq ft of jib.
My goal in sailing is not speed, obviously. Nor am I incapable of understanding structure, and how stiffness can be had at extremely low weight. The truth is I LIKE weight. The boat may not be speedy, but she's a joy to sail in all kinds of conditions. This is the kind of boat where you can sip a coffee when it's blowing 25. The tiller requires little attention, because she's got a full keel. Altogether, a predictable, able, and responsive boat.
Take a look at the thread entitled "wingspar rig". The design shown is a go-fast boat. There's a boat that might be built light, maybe out of 6mm ply.
It has a ballast keel but it represents what could be done with a deep foil that can be raised while sailing.

Alan

[messabout]

Frosh;
I defer to your experience and obvious bravery in using very thin skin material. Even if we had the fortitude to build with 2mm skins there would be another constraint that plagues we impecunious ones. We can get 2mm ply, usually in birch wood. It is often referred to as aircraft ply. It costs a princes ransom and then some. We can get very thin veneers that could be used for cold molding. That is also pretty costly and certainly labor intensive.

Part of my problem is that I may be overly dedicated to structural engineering practice, at least in this area. When one applies standard plate deflection formulae, the results are persuasive toward additional thickness. Plate deflection is a function of the cube of thickness, so thin sections, regardless of material, cannot be as stiff as we think we want them to be. That brings up the question of: how stiff is stiff enough? Here opinion is divided. There are arguments for skins that are deliberately flexible. Case in point; The Aleut Bardarka. Not only were those boats animal skin on frame structures, but also the frames were made to flex alarmingly. Frame flexure may not have been deliberate because the boats were made with all joints lashed with animal hide string. Builders were constrained to use the materials and methods that they could find. Though human powered these boats were incredibly fast.

From a technical point of view, a rippling skin is thought to be a detriment because of presumed seperation and miscellaneous eddy making. Many of us fall into that manner of thinking. A small light (by American standards) boat will typically have ten to eleven pounds per square foot of static loading on the wetted surface. That does not seem like much but when applied to large areas of unsupported plate it will cause a lot of deflection. What we must do is to put our skin material in at least partial compression mode as opposed to pure bending. We can do that by making the sections round or parabolic or nearly so. Thus we can build a tortured ply 4mm Tornado.

Alan White is one of those New England Yankees that I mentioned previously. I do believe that his point of view should also be appreciated. In his part of the country there are some absolutely lovely, and God awful heavy, boats that are held in highest esteem by the locals. They'll sail in some very brisk weather with reasonable comfort and assurance that one will get home without benefit of Epirbs. I'm thinking of the likes of a Herrshoff twelve and a half, and similar designs. Yes, they race those things with regularity. The regatta participants are as keen on winning as are the crews of the Aussie 18s. They just have their fun at a slower pace.

Different strokes for different folks.......

[alan white]

Speaking of Herreshoff 12 1/2s, or likely Havens, I hope to play at racing against those boats this coming Summer. Most are built locally, and godawful expensive (how's 40k sound??), and so those boats are relegated to the rich in almost every case.
The boats around the coast here are indeed strong and heavy. one reason is that our boat season is pretty short unless the boat can be made comfortable in the spring and fall seasons (which nearly collide somewhere in July). In fact it's said of Maines seasons that we get 11 months of winter and one month of bad sledding.
Another reason is deep water near shore. All things considered, old timers had no need to beach boats of any size. They built working sail craft on the same principles of the British pilot cutters. When you make a living from the sea, you fish in all kinds of nasty weather, and so you build a husky boat. Chesepeke fishermen built sharpie types, but then they seldom worried about being carried out to sea or encountering giant swells. Instead, they built light shallow boats.
Those old designs had a large influence on local yacht design. The designs came to be loved for their time-tested qualities.
Those same qualities still serve today. Avoiding the granite boneyards of the 3500 islands off Maine entails a design with a long, deep keel and a weatherly rig, not to mention the ability to survive the occasional grounding, which is invariably craggy rock.
Did I mention fog? Or tides of 11 ft? More reasons for strong and heavy boats, able to stay out when they are sailing blind or against the current. GPS and radar are available today, of course.

[frosh]

Hi Messabout and Alan and others. Heavy boats like a Herreshoff 12 and a half are almost non-existant in Western Australia. However I can appreciate that for some folks this might be the epitome of the desirable qualities that they want from their own sailboat. I naturally assumed that if Sharpii2 is proposing a form of race, especially since an unknown proportion would be human powered by rowing or paddling that an extremely heavy boat creates many more problems than it solves. I could be wrong, but speaking for Aussies, the idea of the hybrid racing craft is very unlikely to appeal, and if it included a rule that minimum displacement was to be 400lb. it would become a complete anathema.

As far as marine ply available in Australia, we used to be able to buy 3 ply at a total thickness of 1mm. Nowadays the thinnest that I can source is 1.5mm which I have used a few times. My 23 ft. OC2 is a round bottomed cold molded two layer 1.5mm marine ply construction which is frameless, apart from 2 bulkheads mainly to provide sealed buoyancy chambers in the bow and stern, and a tiny section internal keelson of WRC.
It probably was strength overkill but I also sheathed the hull in one layer of woven carbon, followed by one layer of very thin woven fibreglass to protect the carbon from abrasion damage.
It is not my intention to go into the engineering of how to build flat panelled boats with very thin ply skins, but I believe that the Gougeon brothers were pioneering the methods decades ago, and have published books on the subject.
Cost of thin marine plywood was mentioned also. We can buy here a sheet of 8ft. x 4 ft. marine ply of superb quality of 1.5mm or 2 mm or 3mm made from Australian hoop pine a medium weight timber with a good surface hardness for around $75 per sheet Aust. dollars. Compared to the cost of boat hardware in Stainless steel, rigging costs including a quality tapered mast in T6 aluminium or in carbon fibre the cost of a few sheets of marine ply is really a pittance.
Also there would be no compulsion to use marine ply for the hull skin. What about WRC strip planking, or a foam/fibreglass epoxy composite. These methods completely overcome panel stiffness issues with minimal engineering.
Regards--- Sam

[sharpii2]

Hi US compatriots. What is it with the weight problem? I don't mean to offend but what is freaky about a grown man weighing a normal 154lb?
Most people I know weigh considerably more than 150 lbs, myself included. QUOTE
Also what is the 125lb gear? Are we taking tents, gas bottles. pots and pans and canned food for a week?
It is only a race for a few hours, is it not? I would have thought a protein bar and an energy drink (total weight 2 lbs) would be ample.
Honestly I don't get it. Sure I can build a small boat out of half inch ply, but it becomes harder to transport, costs more to build.And it wiill paddle or row with a huge effort, making you tired in about 15 minutes. And it will sail about as fast as an Optimist dinghy. In my book none of this is much fun. Anyway it is purely theoretical for me, as Aussies would never go for this type of event IMHO
Best of luck with it; seriously.

What I have in mind is more like a 'Water Tribe' challenge which could last for a couple of days to a week. And yes you will need to bring pots and pans, canned stores and some kind of cooker, as well as some spare changes of clothes.

I find it hard to believe that the land that produced Steve Irwin would not eventially go for such a thing. I have always thought of you Aussies as tougher and more hardy than us pampered Yanks.

Yeah, and a lot of us ARE carrying around some extra weight.

Maybe events like I propose could help change that.

Better than spewing 5 gallons an hour worth of hydro carbons into the air. (your typical 60hp 'personal watercraft'. Which is only fun at full throttle).

Part of the idea here is to help develop good seaworthy small boats for those of us who cannot afford proper cruising auxilliaries and all the trappings that go with them.

Bob

[frosh]

Hi, I have said my piece already and more is the pity that the land that produced Steve Irwin will not take on the type of challenge you have described in this thread. The chance that I have misjudged the people of Australia (by saying that although I like the concept it won't catch on here), is highly unlikely.