boat building in low-cost labor countries

[hawkey]

My husband and I would like to build a custom sailboat but cannot afford the cost of US boatyards. So, we are trying to locate overseas boatyards that build fiberglass sailboats for low-cost labor rates. For example, we have heard that countries such as Taiwan, Turkey, Honduras, etc., may have boatyards like that.
If you have had a boat built overseas or know of such a boatyard, please email me with any information you have. Thanks.

[Dim]

Dear Hawkey,

If you ask about the project, I can advise "ALA" Group at Ukraine.

Spassky st. 68, Nikolaev, Ukraine, 54001
Ph. (80512)35373; fax (80512)359047

Is if you address to them, they will solve the problem both on designing and about building.

They have web-site: http://yachtbuilder.mk.ua/ala/DgALAE.html.
e-mail: ala@yachtbuilder.mk.ua

Probably it will help to decide your problem.

Yours faithfully
Dim.

[Guest]

Hi you may like to reply to this company, its located in mexico and they may be able to give you an estimate.


you may contact

Shipbuilder Eng.
Ivan Carlos Ojeda

ivanco@prodigy.net.mx
cgnyasociados@hotmail.com

this guys have some boatyards that they work with, they probably can give you a good idea.

[gonzo]

Overseas yards can be of high quality, however there are differences in laws and working habits. For example, your boat may not be up to USCG standards, which would make it uninsurable. Also, consult a local lawyer for liability laws. In some places you may loose all your investment and have no recourse. Deadlines and construction schedules are unknown or disregarded in some countries too. In the US you would be able to sue for performance compliance. Have you explored Canadian builders? Their currency is quite low now.

[Peter_T]

How about checking out builder in South America, in Brazil: There is one posted. next to this section.

Gonzo's comment cannot be taken for granted. How about some Mexican yard next to the US border, so it is easy to bring the back and register and do some minor work to satisfy USCG. I think the vital part is safety regulations. Firefighting. As a pleasure vessel, there should be a lot of exemptions.

Building a boat out of country, must allow some travelling time and expenses. If this is the case, select a nice place for holiday waiting for the boat to be ready. Some boat yard have hull all ready. You just take a good look and select your engine, the boat will be ready shortly. Allow cost to register in US port with some minor addition of safety outfit.

Peter

[gonzo]

I'm not saying all foreign yards are unreliable. Rather that some of the expectations that would be normal for a US yard may not be so elsewhere.

[Guest]

please see
WWW.HANYAMARINES.COM
CONTACT
Eng, USAMA YOUSEF
USAMA@HANYAMARINES.COM

[Guest]

You have to look carefully at productivity, not just wages.

The best first world yards (including some in the US) do as low as 13 manhours per compenstated gross ton (a measure of boat size that includes effects of complexity and size). This is because high wages motivate management to find other solutions.

Some third world yards hit 150 MH / CGT.

Thus, the poor productivity means the wages are low per hour, but it takes ten or a dozen times more hours.

[Doug Carlson]

Guest,

This is an interesting area of discussion but I'm afraid your terms are pretty vague. Are you talking cad developed steel versus hand hewn timber. Are you talking commercial vessels of like construction? Do you have some specific examples?

I've been involved in manufacturing (non-marine) in the US over the past 30 years and in the past few years it has become abundantly clear that advanced manufacturing technologies are available pretty much world wide today. Is your experience as it relates to ship and boat building otherwise?

Doug Carlson

[Guest]

You are correct about most of this stuff being available, but with a low labor rate, why bother? Or at least that is what I assume they must be thinking. Also remember, most third world countries have other cultural issues that block such investments, because it isn't just technology, but workforce empowerment and other stuff that just isn't on in many third world countries.

There are exceptions, notably Korea in large commercial shipbuilding especially, but they don't seem interested in small vessel construction, even commercial vessels, much less yachts.

Of course, lots of US yacht builders don't know anything about improved productivity either, so the combination of high wages and poor productivity is deadly. There is some room for someone to make killing here.

[Doug Carlson]

Guest,

I suspect you have the ears (eyes?) of a number of interested parties if you'ld care to flesh out your thoughts a bit.

If you have specific knowledge of under-utilized manufacturing techniques that increase productivity, would you be willing to share them with us?

I'm guessing there are a few out there who would like to make, maybe even share, a killing. Also, improved productivity would theoretically make better boats available to more people.

Doug Carlson

[J@K]

Hi there Hawkey,

After reading your post and replies from the members I think an alternative is South America, and as well Brazil is a good option, Argentina it is.

There are several good and low cost companies that would be more than happy to undertake your project, both motor or sail oriented. The subject is, what you´re really looking for and here I dont have information to go forward and humbly advise to whom ring a bell.

May I suggest you then to drop me a line and simple data of you boat and I will be glad to help.

Now, the other side of the story is as said someone. My country is a bit far from the States. The advantage: low labour costs actually. You need to be prepared to flight downhere at least a couple of times, just to follow up the project.

USCG regulations. There are several shipyards actually building boats and sailboats under EEC standards for export operations. Don´t see why we cannot here in Argentina fulfill that. We need to tackle our PNA guys, why not your CG ?:) But being serious again, I dont see much trouble in this point.

The legal aspects of the operation are basically easy in theory (don´t know an easy lawyer in this world), but I will suggest to hire and engineering co. or similar to be your eyes and ears in this project.

Just a couple of toughts. Pls drop me a line and I will be glad to help if possible.
My office mail is jkaniak@baya.com.ar

All the best,

J

[J@K]

Sorry, forgott to say this and it is, I understand your project is a "dream boat" probably and respect that, but..........maybe another possibility is to buy an used american boat, no older than two or three years........the offer is huge actually, and a lot of people willing to sell. Best, J

[gonzo]

I grew up in Uruguay, across the river from Argentina. They have excellent yards that do high quality work. Just think of Frers. Uruguay has a couple of yards that build in composite boats at competitive prices too. Most notably Astilleros Rosendo. I am not endorsing anyone, but just commenting on yards I know personally.

[J@K]

G´morning Gonzo !
You´re right man, Rosendo´s boatyard is well known and very good people work at it.

Re. Argentinian shipyards, I don´t know how long gao you haven´t been around here, but things had change a lot and probably few of those you can remember had changed propietors or even closed. Nevertheless, there a quite a few good and reliable ones.

Abrazo !, J@K ;)

[Guest]

World class construction rates are on the order of 8-9 man hours / compensated gross ton. 20 - 30 is considered OK, but I worked at a US yard building small aluminum commercial ships that hit 13, so 8-9 is acheiveable. The compensation factor accounts for the complexity and size of the vessel, and for a big yacht is probably 5-10 (OECD would say 5, but in a pinch I'll buy 10, since a frigate is the highest surface ship listed at about 12 and no way a yacht is as complex or difficult as a modern combatant). This means that an MCA limit yacht, say 150' or so could have 25,000 - 45,000 man hours in it at world class rates - a labor content on the order of $2.5 M at Northern EU labor costs. Such yachts go for about $15 M, so there is either an awful lot of profit, or the labor productivity might not be where it could be.

I looked at the numbers for a 65' custom sailing yacht and it came out at 650 MH / CGT (at 5.0). This is (I hope) not typical, but it does show that at least one guy is a bit off the best.

There is all kinds of support for productivity improvements in shipbuilding. Unfortunately, unless it says "yacht" in bold letters, yacht builders aren't interested, but it's their loss.

As I said above, there are some big opportunities if someone wants to take them.

[Chris Rapson]

Dear All,
My boat building experience is a 32' Hartley Ferro built in Sydney and a 6.5m Van der Stadt ZeeMin built in New Guinea.
I have also looked at boatbuilding in a low cost environment and the following issues came up:
1. Security - Low cost environments occur because laws are not enforced with the same rigour that they are in a high cost environment. It is quite possible that just before your boat is finished that one of the local bright sparks will offer to let you live if you just hand over the keys.
2. Untrained Labour - Most of the low cost workers will have no idea about boatbuilding, and while they could produce a beutiful job if trained and encouraged this is a time consuming process.
3. Materials - It is unlikely that all the necesary machinery and equipment would be available locally, so most would need to be imported.
4. Local Boatbuilders - Those local companies that have the ability to build a boat also know how to charge a premium price. They are not going to stay in business by being cheap.
5. Site Costs - Boatbuilding sites have unique requirements, in particular power and launching facilities. One place where I costed puting in power it would have been cheaper to buy and run a generator.
I travelled through Asia from the Philippines to Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia and I was not able to locate a suitable place for boatbuilding.
However I want another boat, a big one, to retire on.
I am currently looking at the Philippines, Manila region, Subic Bay or Olongapo in particular. This area may have the following advantages:
1. Security - This area is a bit of a foreigner enclave. Plenty of people to talk to and to analyse possible problems.
2. Labour - There are still workers in the area who worked for the Americans when they had bases there. The would speak some english and be used to working for western employers.
3. Materials - The current free trade environment seems to be permitting impotation into the Philippines in a fairly secure manner.
5. Sites - There may well be existing sites.
I am planing to go to the Philippines sometime this year to take a look.
The sort of setup that I imagine would be something along the lines of Bruce Roberts Marine Park in Brisbane (not seen) or Taren Point in Sydney. An informal group of boatbuilders in a sort of cooperative, possibly under comercial management.
Has anyone had a look at the area or any experience of this sort of arrangement?
Regards,
Chris

[Raykenn]

For example, your boat may not be up to USCG standards, which would make it uninsurable. .

I would like to expand on Gonzo's comment about standards if I may. What is "standard" for us does not follow suit in the rest of the world. As an example, our electrical systems are generally based on a 110 volt service. In Europe and South America, the boats will most likely be wired for 220v service. Higher voltage, smaller current, smaller conductors. These smaller conductors could not handle the load placed on them by a 110 volt service. The convertors required to step up the voltage will be heavy, space consuming and expensive. I don't want to be a damp mop on your dreams, but before you go to a foreign builder there are a lot of questions that will have to be answered. Take nothing for granted no matter what the sales person says! His job is to fill contracts.

Good luck

Raykenn

[Blether]

Hmm. You need to keep the cost down, but you want a brand new custom yacht, in fibreglass.

What makes your requirements special enough that no existing yacht satisfies them ? Are your unique needs going to be common enough that the resulting boat will be in demand and the builder can defray the high cost of mould creation, over a series run ?

What is your purpose and what is your budget ?

In the Asia area, you might try www.pippenmarine.com - run by an Australian lady, based in Malaysia and Thailand - who may have recommendations.

DK yachts is a German-Malay venture in Malaysia that turns out beautiful racers and cruiser-racers, having got into carbon-fibre technology through projects to fabricate the domes for islamic temples. They're ISO9002 certified, and likely will beat a US yard on price.

[Chris Rapson]

The reason that a custom boat is commissioned is because no available boat is suitable.
I have been searching the for sale advertisments for my dream boat. The following problems have emerged:
1. Most second hand boats are old. I looked at one ex racer where the cyclic loading of the lead keel, combined with "osmosis" had left the bottom a mass of crumpled fibreglass matt.
Most of the equipment in an old boat is old, and would need to be replaced in a relativly short time.
2. Many, many old boats are overpriced. If depreciation, cost of repairs, projected equipment replacement and shakedown and delivery are priced in they become very unattractive indeed. The owners price them on the basis of how good they look in a marina, but that is not where I would want my boat to be.
3. The newer attractive boats are designed to a mass market, where the heaviest use is a weeks sailing. They are clean, light, fast and wet and move in a sharp manner. My need is for a large heavy cruising yacht that can go for years without a major overhaul. Every time my wife steps onto one of the smaller lighter yachts she looses all enthusiasm. And that is before leaving the harbour!
4. If you build or commission a boat yourself you know everthing that has gone into that boat. You know how it works, and how to fix it.
5. The boat that you build or commission yourself is a little like your own child. It is always loved more than someone elses.

[Hugh Miller]

If the yacht is for a steel cad designed another alternative would be to go to a South africa shipyard.

There is a good photostory on
http://www.discovery2001.co.uk/pelagic/masterframe_fleet.htm

This is the story of Pelagic boat.
I would very interested in hearing how the costs compare if you follow it up.

Thanks

Hugh Miller

[Neven]

Hello,

Please check out www.promaritime.com (http://promaritime.com)!

ProMaritim -Maritime Gateway to Asia-.

Regards

[Thomas]

Dear Madam,

Just visit: www.pmcyachts.com

Polish boatyard, they have built eg. for FE Hood from US.

Regards

Thomas

[mik-48]

If you are still looking. Please e-mail me
at mik-48@operamail.com

[dincerd]

hi,

i have heard that you re looking for building a sailboat.

i m a naval archicet in Turkey and we re building many yachts ( fiberglass, wooden, classic sailboats, modern high speed crafts) and as u know the price in Turkey is more comfortable than the other countries. if u would like to contact with me pls write into my e-mail adress.

best wishes

dincerd@hotmail.com

[warapotw]

go to url http://www.yachtsolutions.net for detail

[Skipper Jay]

Could ge get me an idea, of the following costs in Brazil for work on a 18m-Trimaran (Fibregalss ove wood) tht will pass your country later this year.
HGaul out and launch on slipway?
Laydays on the dry?
Labor rate for stripping down to plywood and relaminating with FG and epoxy resin, painting bottom and topsides?
Jay
tropicyacht@yahoo.com


Hi there Hawkey,

After reading your post and replies from the members I think an alternative is South America, and as well Brazil is a good option, Argentina it is.

There are several good and low cost companies that would be more than happy to undertake your project, both motor or sail oriented. The subject is, what you´re really looking for and here I dont have information to go forward and humbly advise to whom ring a bell.

May I suggest you then to drop me a line and simple data of you boat and I will be glad to help.

Now, the other side of the story is as said someone. My country is a bit far from the States. The advantage: low labour costs actually. You need to be prepared to flight downhere at least a couple of times, just to follow up the project.

USCG regulations. There are several shipyards actually building boats and sailboats under EEC standards for export operations. Don´t see why we cannot here in Argentina fulfill that. We need to tackle our PNA guys, why not your CG ?:) But being serious again, I dont see much trouble in this point.

The legal aspects of the operation are basically easy in theory (don´t know an easy lawyer in this world), but I will suggest to hire and engineering co. or similar to be your eyes and ears in this project.

Just a couple of toughts. Pls drop me a line and I will be glad to help if possible.
My office mail is jkaniak@baya.com.ar

All the best,

J

[Maciej]

Hi,

Please visit our website: www.pmcyachts.com

We have built ag 48Motorsailer and 52' Powercat for Ted Hood from Rhode Island.


BR
Maciej

[caribmon]

We are an American managed custom boatbuilding operation in Brazil doing custom composite catamarans. Brazil Boats is currently building a Malcolm Tennant New Yorker 51 Power Catamaran.

Wages are certainly much lower for both skilled and unskilled labour. With 18.000.000 million people less than three hours away in Sao Paulo there is no shortage of talent - as Brazil is building jets that compete with Boeing, just put a rocket into space and are enriching uranium.

The great benefit of building in Brazil is the Drawback program, where we, as a boatbuilding company, can import marine products duty and tax free for for boats that will be sold outside of Brazil. With factory direct buying on big ticket items and OEM accounts with the major wholesale companies in Florida, the key products will not be knockoffs... We are also building to ABYC standards which exceed USCG in many cases. In other words, we can buy better than US boatyards in some cases.

That combined with low cost labour means we can compete on the international market.

What is wonderful about Brazil is the fact that we have access to some of the finest woods and excellent craftsmen resulting in a clean, professional finish. A wide pool of interior designers at rates much lower than Europe and the USA means one can utilise professionals who can aid and source the right products and people resulting in an ergomonic and professionally finished yacht.

We protect our workers and are careful with disposal of toxic waste - yet, we don't have the EPA breathing down our necks which also saves a lot of money.

Regards

www.brazilboats.com (http://www.brazilboats.com/)