Photos of electrical installations

[KnottyBuoyz]

Hi Fellas

I'm looking for photos of electrical installations onboard boats. Particularily of any unique or innovative ideas for keeping the wiring neat and secure. Here's one example:

Before;

http://www.cruisersforum.com/attachments/gallery/5/0/2/502p1010037-med.jpg

After:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/attachments/gallery/5/0/2/502p3190024-med.jpg

I don't get to stick my head in many new production boats on such an intimate level but I'd like to see how the pro's do it. We're currently re-wiring our 1987 express cruiser (originally all household wiring) and are planning a trawler build next spring. Not too much worried about estetics as long as the wiring is neat, secure and safe.

Thanks.

Rick

[Frosty]

Thats a very good before and after photo. it is very neat and safe as you say.

The top photo looks like my boat --well nearly.

I just think that if I had to fault find and trace out a problem I would rather work on the top photo than the bottom.

Apart from the 1mm loose neg there above the battery switch.

Why is there red,white,green and black all going into the sub neg bus?

[TerryKing]

The key to reliability is good design, and mechanically-solid construction.

They key to enabling troubleshooting is an accurate system wiring diagram, with terminal-strip layout drawings and back-of-instrument panel layout drawings, with wires labelled. Then you are not tracing a circuit by following the physical wire thru a bunch of other wires, wiggling it to see which one it is. You hope.

The US CG standard on electrical systems says quite a bit about mechanical issues in boat wiring. Every time my whole instrument panel goes "Bang!" with a hard wave-front, I think about how good my crimps are!

I started out wiring patch panels in radio stations, and putting connectors on 7/8 inch Heliax (Coax cable). I see wires in my sleep, still...

Those wires are going to bounce, hard, many thousands of times. The mechanical attachment is real important. Good lacing / tyrap / raceway etc keeps the wire from flexing at it's terminal with every bounce. That's a good thing.

(Somewhat) Other Subject. I'm not the expert on all this, but I started a Boatdesign.net Wiki page on Electrcial Systems at: http://www.boatdesign.net/wiki/Electrical_systems

Please drop in there (There's a 'discussion' Tab at the top), and contribute!

I'm looking for some schematic diagrams of typical boats of different types and sizes, and lots of other stuff.

This is a WE kind of effort...

[KnottyBuoyz]

Thanks for the feedback Terry. I've been working on the wiring plan for some time with a number of other fellas elsewhere on the net. Hadn't shared the plans on here till now. See attached PDF file.

Just a bit of background on the boat. It's a Jacques Mertens designed 28' trawler built in "Stitch & Glue" composite method.

http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=TW28 (http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=TW28)

http://www.bateau.com/prodimages/TW28_350.jpg

We'll use this boat for occasional weekend trips up and down the St. Lawrence river and extended (3-5 weeks) in the Rideau, Trent Severn and Erie Canals. Maybe a side trip through the Hudson River, Champlain Canal and Lake Champlain.

Electrically speaking we want her to be self sufficient w/o the need for a generator relying on shorepower for charging, which is abundant in these cruising areas, and a solar array for maintenance. Largest AC load will likely be a microwave oven, refer and the laptop computers (2). I would like to be self sufficient for a few days on the hook and am thinking about adding a large frame alternator to be able to recharge form the main engine. I'll probably switch the lead acid batteries for AGM's as well. Ease of maintenance is an issue.

The drawing attached (in Adobe PDF format) isn't totally complete and not all the equipment is specified. I'm also working on a systems mimic panel which isn't included. Any feedback or suggestions are welcome but I won't be revisiting this plan for a while yet.

I have access to the ABYC standards and as you know they aren't a "How to do it" book. I also have Nigel Calder's and Charlie Wing's books which are great but I find them a little lacking in some areas. I'm currently re-wiring our '87 25' express cruiser and am thinking techniques that I can use to make the refit look professsional. I have all the proper tools and am using all approved marine cabling and connectors.

I've done some testing of my battery cable crimps and have been able to hang my somewhat substantial body weight from the ceiling with them without failure. I think that makes the basic ABYC standard! *lol* I use a double ratching crimper for the smaller connections. Static pull test on a 12 ga cable & connector exceeded 70lbs to break it. I think that exceeds the standard as well.

I've attached a couple more contributions I've received from elsewhere.

PS. I'm sorry I posted this thread in the wrong section. If one of the moderators could move it to the proper category (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=25) I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again.

[Tim B]

Keep it simple, keep to a colour code. Nothing will go wrong.

Tim B.

[marshmat]

KB, that is an excellent example of the type of wiring diagram I like to see. Everything clearly laid out and labelled, colour coded, etc.
The presence of Xantrex equipment is an additional clue that you know what you're doing (OK, ok, I really like their stuff).
Regarding the first post, though... I think there is such a thing as too many zip ties! The rat's nest is a pain, yes, but if there's a zip tie every inch, it's a real pain in the butt to add something or to upsize a wire to handle a replacement unit that draws more power than the old one.

[KnottyBuoyz]

KB, that is an excellent example of the type of wiring diagram I like to see. Everything clearly laid out and labelled, colour coded, etc.
The presence of Xantrex equipment is an additional clue that you know what you're doing (OK, ok, I really like their stuff).
Regarding the first post, though... I think there is such a thing as too many zip ties! The rat's nest is a pain, yes, but if there's a zip tie every inch, it's a real pain in the butt to add something or to upsize a wire to handle a replacement unit that draws more power than the old one.

Hey Matt

Thanks for the feedback. It's easy to be seduced by all the options when you're in the design phase. I'll probably plumb and wire for almost every eventuality as I've indicated in the drawing even though when the boat goes in the water it may not have the thruster or windlass etc. actually installed but the wiring will be there and ready. I like the Xantrex equipment mainly because they're Canadian! Go team! *lol* I have an Iota IQ4 charger in our current boat and I just luv it! I was a little leary about going with a combined inverter/charger but a retired Xantrex engineer who helped me out with the original wiring diagram changed my mind.

Here's a few more that have been haunting my hard drive.

[TerryKing]

KB, that looks really good. How soon does this boat hit the water?? When you get to the Chambly Canal or the Champlain Canal, call 802-439-5503 and see if I'm in Vermont, USA. I've never boated on the Rideau Canal, but I've skated on it!

Two minor questions:

- Fuse locations on Thruster / Winch: Might it be better if these fuses were close to the battery bank, thus protecting the cabling running all the way to those forward locations? or is the switching you show actually back close to the batteries?

- Terminal block positions identification: I know you have the wires ID's at their end, but I sometimes find those hard to read. It might be nice to have an ID strip right alongside each terminal block, readable "RightSideUp". I started to do that in Broadcast installations after grumbling about what the heck was what.

And troubleshooting on shipboard might not be "armchair" and relaxed...

Also, I like permanently-installed independent in-cabinet lights so you don't have to have the flashlight in your mouth when needing two hands... I spec'd those in some Automatic Test Equipment cabinets and was asked why they were necessary. Later the maintenance manager said "We really like those lights!".

No design is ever finished unless you lock your office door :)

Oh: Was that diagram done in Visio?? If so, could I / we get a copy of the Visio file?? I'd like to learn how to do a diagram that looked anywhere near that good!! And I need to do some for the Wiki. Did you use a special template or set of Icons??

You are setting a standard that's tough to meet!

[KnottyBuoyz]

KB, that looks really good. How soon does this boat hit the water??

We should be starting construction about this time next year. I think I'll actually be able to get it in the water the following spring and fit it out while it's in the water. Plan is to build "out of pocket" so it'll look like a workboat finish at first then progress towards the complete fit out over the next year or two.

When you get to the Chambly Canal or the Champlain Canal, call 802-439-5503 and see if I'm in Vermont, USA. I've never boated on the Rideau Canal, but I've skated on it!

Will do.

Two minor questions:

- Fuse locations on Thruster / Winch: Might it be better if these fuses were close to the battery bank, thus protecting the cabling running all the way to those forward locations? or is the switching you show actually back close to the batteries?

Understood. I haven't gotten to the point where I've actually spec'd a particular windlass or thruster so I have "guestimated" loads. I think most equipment mfgr's provide or spec circuit protection and recommended installations. The batteries will be close, I'll be mounting them midships deep in the bilge so the runs will be short.

- Terminal block positions identification: I know you have the wires ID's at their end, but I sometimes find those hard to read. It might be nice to have an ID strip right alongside each terminal block, readable "RightSideUp". I started to do that in Broadcast installations after grumbling about what the heck was what.

I've got one of those fancy Dymo labellers that I plan to use a lot. I've plenty of experience labelling wiring and I find that the best choice.

Also, I like permanently-installed independent in-cabinet lights so you don't have to have the flashlight in your mouth when needing two hands... I spec'd those in some Automatic Test Equipment cabinets and was asked why they were necessary. Later the maintenance manager said "We really like those lights!".

Absolutely. I've got a bunch of LED's and am tinkering with them for that purpose and a systems mimic panel.

Oh: Was that diagram done in Visio?? If so, could I / we get a copy of the Visio file?? I'd like to learn how to do a diagram that looked anywhere near that good!! And I need to do some for the Wiki. Did you use a special template or set of Icons??

Visio 2007. You'll have to get the admin to allow .vsd files to be uploaded. I've got a slightly older version of that drawing you can play with. I used a lot of the standard icons in the Visio library and drew what I couldn't find. The entire back of the electrical panel I drew myself. It's easy and quick once you catch on. I followed Alden Trull's examples as the basis as well as the wiring diag's for the Coast Guard 47' MLB's.

http://www.midcoast.com/~aft/index2.html

You are setting a standard that's tough to meet!

It's not hard. All those drafting classes in Highschool & College helped I think! I could have used AutoCad but Visio is much quicker.

[TerryKing]

KB, Try to download this:
http://www.boatdesign.net/boat-design-wiki/uploads/6/6b/JoomlaSiteCreation-FromAnalysis.pdf
and then rename it to *.vsd

It's really a Visio file... If that works, maybe you can upload yours on the Wiki etc..

Just for people to see, it can stay as a .PDF, but to learn How-To the original would be great....

And, I don't know what a "systems mimic panel" is, but I'd like to :confused:

[KnottyBuoyz]

Mimic panel. Have you ever seen the damage control panels on ships? The ones with indicators as to the status of water tight doors, emergency pumps etc.? This is something similar that uses LED's to indicate the status/operation of various systems. The one I've attached is a fake but should illustrate the concept.

XP caused me problems renaming the file. It wanted to suck it into our document management system which choked on the file type. I've zipped it up.

[TerryKing]

OK, OK, got it.. just never heard that term. We used to call them "Pictorial Status Panels", I think...

It would be cool to find a good material to put the graphic on that could have the LED's come thru well from behind.

I'm looking to have a helm position that is totally sealed plastic from the outside, that can take multiple pails of seawater thrown at it, but includes decent visibility of a large LCD panel, most-necessary switches and controls, and helm-position display of variables like engine and electrical system 'gauges'.
I keep hearing about high-end 'waterproof' electronics like chartplotters and radars that end up 'fogged' inside their displays. Yuck...

Oh, the Zipped file was fine! I gotta get more Visio time.... Thanks!

[marshmat]

I haven't tried using Visio for more than the most basic block diagrams. Good to know it's capable of more.
I'm a lot more familiar with OrCAD for electrics. Still learning it, but it's incredibly powerful and it's possible to create your own component libraries. Knowing the input power needs of all your equipment it would be pretty easy to model everything in OrCAD, lay out the schematics, and actually simulate the power flow including any weird feedback or interference effects, as well as where things are likely to blow. Would be more work than the Visio method but it'd give me a lot more confidence in my system.
It would be cool to find a good material to put the graphic on that could have the LED's come thru well from behind. Frosted plexiglas, perhaps? (The stuff they sell for bathrooms.) Take two pieces. Print the graphics on one, leaving the lamp spots white. Print only the lamp spots on the other, and drill them out. Stick the two together and glue the LEDs in the holes.
I'm looking to have a helm position that is totally sealed plastic from the outside Good idea. "Waterproof" equipment means it won't be fried by a dousing, not that it will still be in pristine shape afterwards. Keeping the water off in the first place is the best option.

[TerryKing]

Matt, as much as I would find it recreational to go off on a discussion of tools, software tools, etc, I'll try to be good...:D Each of us carries our tool history with us. Every time I change continents the last few years, I bring my torque wrench, my DMM and a few other favorites...

I've used ORCAD quite a bit, even did a full PCI card with a DSP on it once. That was not what I recall as a lot of fun, and I had to do it away from home. Actually, I did start with a similar card, to be accurate. But Anyway, I'm not good on Visio yet, but if (a boat type) someone was starting from scratch, I bet Visio would be good to cover the non-hull-design stuff including electrics, plumbing, panels etc.

I like the plexiglass idea, although today "Polycarbonate" (Lexan) is easy to get and stronger. I wonder if it has that "transmit light sideways" effect like plexiglass?? I bet it could be done so that it could be edge-lit at night with orange or red LEDS.

I like the double-layer-layout idea. Mounting the LED's and stress-relieving their attaching leads with clear RTV would cushion them a bit, but still allow one to be dug out if it failed.

Why is it SO easy to get side-tracked onto something like this :p

If It don't have blinkin' colored lights it ain't fun...

[marshmat]

Lexan has a refractive index of 1.59, Plexiglas (acrylate) is 1.49. Your edge-lighting effect should still work; if anything, it might work better.
Why? Sheer coolness, is why. Gotta look hi-tech and all. If your helm looks like the pilot's station of the Starship Enterprise, so much the better.

[KnottyBuoyz]

If your helm looks like the pilot's station of the Starship Enterprise, so much the better.

Absolutely.

Nice thread hijack guys! :D

[Delta]

Oh, boy, do I have my work cut out for me. I am about to embark on completely rewiring my 1977 Whitby 42 sailboat (Hey, it's Canadian built, that's good here, right?) and have torn out the old panel and he boat is on the blocks and all I have to do is.....figure out what I need to do. Googled here and saw these totally excellent wiring schemes and am now depressed! Man, you guys are good. I'm still looking for a good book or two to get me started and you guys are turning out works of art! I had a 50 Amp AC shore power I want to duplicate and had an Onan Genset 7.5KW that I tore out and will eventually replace. My engine room is bare (Main engine out as well) so I can start anew. I guess I'll simply start reading through all these forums to glean what knowledge I can get. I do know I want a clean install like you guys have and want all new wiring. I may get an inverter as well so I'll plan on that in the grand plan. Thanks for a good start. Ummm....any good book recommendations on how to go about this? Thanks, folks,

:eek:

Delta

[KnottyBuoyz]

Welcome Delta

Two come to mind.

Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual by Nigel Calder

Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook by Charlie Wing

There are plenty of others. A quick Google search on marine wiring or marine electrical will give you plenty of research but I do recommend the two I've listed above. If you want to start a separate thread we can work together and I'll sketch out your plan like I did for my project. Kind of like an "electrical plan by committee" *lol*.

Rick

[Delta]

Appreciate the hospitality........and advice for books. This is one project that I think I have the "long term" patience to do right.:)

[KnottyBuoyz]

Appreciate the hospitality........and advice for books. This is one project that I think I have the "long term" patience to do right.:)

Peter Eikenberry mentions a few more on this thread....

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16677

You might want to check out his web site. Plenty of info there to get you started. Good luck on your project.

[KnottyBuoyz]

A new line of modular panels from Bluesea including of all things a "mimic panel"! ;o) And I was just about to patent my idea!

http://bluesea.com/viewresource/476

I like the idea of the modular design as it adds a lot of flexibility for upgrades down the line. I can see it driving up the complexity of the basic system design quite a bit though. Those familiar with Bluesea systems would probably adapt pretty quick.

There's a lot of good info on the Bluesea site Delta. Worthy of a look. You can get a copy of their catalogue which is chock-a-block with info.

[TerryKing]

If your helm looks like the pilot's station of the Starship Enterprise, so much the better.

Especially if it's on an original-looking (exterior) old Chinese fishing boat or Junk,
(which is distinctly possible!)

[Delta]

Ummm, Blue Sea systems.....may be the easy way out for a novice like me. Great site here. Gonna order the catalog. Thanks, man.

Oooh. I see they sell through Lewis Marine - we have an account there!!! Right on.

[Delta]

On my boat I have two AC units, water heater, air/water cooled refrigeration, trash compacter, batter charger, bunch of lighting on the 110 side. Of course, gonna upgrade a lot of that.

Who knows what I'll add on the DC side but I want to have capacity.

Inverter? Why Knot? (Partial Pun intended)

7 or 8 KW generator to go in to give me fifty amps.

50 amp shore power.

Oh, man, this is gonna be surreal.

From this point in time it all seems a little overwhelming but the sky's the limit and I have the time. (Although the marina charges are killing me even though I am on the blocks)

I'll be lurking here, for sure. Once I get an idea of where I'm headed, I'll start adding up all the amps I'll need!!!!

Thanks, folks.:idea:

[KnottyBuoyz]

Once I get an idea of where I'm headed, I'll start adding up all the amps I'll need!!!!
You might want to try e-Bay for a slightly used nuclear reactor!!! :P

Looking forward to following your progress. Take lots of pics and post them please. Good luck!

Rick

[Delta]

Yeah, first things first. I'm still dismantling the interior and finally - after fifteen years - glassing over some leaks that were behind the engine panel area. Seems like the gap between the deck liner and the interior liner had a gap where water from the cockpit was getting through. Gonna paint the interior and get better access to the wire runs. One problem I face is time. I have been living one month here in Fl working and one month off in the CO mountains on my time off for the past decade so my work on the boat has been limited to ensuring she is kept dry and mildew free. When I'm here I run fans all the time and when I'm off I have had one of my employees going down and running fans two times a week. Gonna have to start spending more time here in FL on my time off which means in the summer months I need to hook up a portable AC unit as it is too freakin hot here to even work!!! Also gonna replace all ten portlights with stainless ones - still looking at where for that - so this will indeed be a work in progress. I will post a picture of the area where I tore out the original electrical - pretty stark - and hopefully see how we progress from there. Thanks.:cool: