Software

[TheRefugee]

Hello, and sorry for the stupid? question, but I am thinking of going to school for boat design, and was wondering what is the main program people use to make the boats as seen in the gallery here?

[Raggi_Thor]

I think Rhino will be the winner if we sum up,
but I am not neutral :-)

Freeship/Delftship seem to be popular also.

[CGN]

Delftship+Rhinomarine+2D CAD+Maxwell or V-Ray or Blender3D (rendering)
Prosurf+Rhinomarine+2D CAD+Maxwell or V-Ray or Blender3D (rendering)
Delfship+ViaCAD+2D CAD+Blender3D (rendering)
TouchCAD+2D CAD+Blender3D (rendering)

cheers

[Crag Cay]

If you are wanting to a professional yacht designer, then being a good 'draftsperson' with CAD is the one skill that will make you employable in the early days of your career. You cannot start too early getting your skills up to speed.

Although it's hard to predict the future, it's likely that AutoCAD will remain the 'lingua franca' in any engineering discipline. Whatever you think of it (and most of what I think about it is unprintable), I think it will remain a key tool in most design companies and getting to grips with even the LT version would be a good grounding even if the drawings you produce aren't as 'good looking' as some of the renderings in the gallery. But it's a bread and butter skill to have, and many local colleges run evening courses in it's use, even if they are mechanical engineering orientated, it's still the same skills.

Then you need a program that can let you design the shape of the boat. Although the 'Vox Pop' survey on here shows Rhino as being the tool of choice, I was able to conduct an alternative informal survey amongst many pro designers from around Europe at the weekend, and none of them use Rhino Marine for hull design and analysis. All but one used MaxSurf and they do a 'students version' on their website for you to try. However, you will need to know a little about boat design before you can produce anything worthwhile - it's clever software but wont design a boat for you.

Rhino then does have a lot of users in the marine world for building the complete 3D surface model of the vessel and details for rendering. I was also surprised (again despite the debates on these boards), by how many offices are turning to solid modelling programs, especially those involved with composite boats, where they needed absolute precision in describing the internal structural components and fit out. It also allows for multi party collaborations on projects. By far and away the commonest tool was Catia for this, although there was no metal boat designers there at the meeting, where I know Workshop / Shipconstructor allows the same procedures for them.

Finally another 'skill' you can learn that will always help in boat design is Excel. If you don't have it them the 'Open Office' version (Opencalc) will do. There is a lot of number crunching in yacht design, and being a ' spreadsheet power user' saves a lot of time.

Computers are not the 'be all and end all' of yacht design, but they do seem to take up a lot of the day. I've never wished I knew less about the computing.

[Raggi_Thor]

CGN, I am just starting to try out Maxwell Render, and I find it much better than Blender that I tried a long time ago.
How is userfriendlyness of V-Ray?

[Raggi_Thor]

I agree that the DWG file format is important (AutoCAD).
I used to be an Autodesk reseller, no I push Bricscad, 90% of the features and 10% of the cost :-) Other versions of Intellicad like Progecad have even been available for free...

[CGN]

V-Ray is great and is fast probably a little bit faster than maxwell, Maxwell is an amazing "light" simulator (excuse my poor explanation) meaning that tends to have longer rendering times but the results are top notch, if you liked Maxwell is a good render to keep.

My only problem why i do not advice about getting these plug ins for rendering is becouse for about the same cost you can get XSI foundation wich has included a v-ray engine for rendering and on top of that you get all the features like being able to add and control textures and IMO better control of your scenes and rendering results, i always mention blender as an option not only because is free (i don't like the interface), it really works fine and here on the forum are a lot of members that are new and want to get involved, so intead of buying anything they can use blender and produce real quatlity pictures for free, and in some point have more control than using rhino+plug in.

There is so many options out there and some take time and practice but i think at the end the results are sometimes really similar.

cheers

[Tim B]

I use Rhino and QCad. Very simple and easy to learn.
POV-Ray is a good renderer (best free renderer around) but I rarely actually use it.
Blender is very good, but it does take a while to learn.

I wouldn't personally bother with AutoCAD. I find it difficult to use and it is rather expesive (compared to QCad).

For Hydrostatics I use Archimedes MB (free for non-commercial use). and for Powering I use a mix of spreadsheets and my own code.

[ludesign]

TouchCAD+2D CAD+Blender3D (rendering)

cheers

A good combination for CAD and TouchCAD is VectorWorks.

TouchCAD can be used in combination with many rendering programs, such as Cinema4D, Cheetah3D, RenderWorks, Artlantis, etc. When exporting as DXF, you can choose to export color names as layers, which typically makes it easy to just apply the textures. When it comes to Artlantis, TouchCAD comes with a direct export feature. Artlantis is in my opinion by far the easiest to use rendering program on the market, and takes you from A to B quicker than anything else.

The picture shows 100% TouchCAD generated models. All but the bottom left images are Artlantis renderings. The bottom left image is rendered directly in TouchCAD.

[Chris Ostlind]

Hi Gang,

While we are on the topic of render engines for 3D files in nautical environments...

I am about to get my self a new render system for my marine design work. I principally use Rhino/RhinoMarine for my work. I specialize in small craft under 30 ' LOA and am pretty much tapped-out on the water render features in Flamingo. I like much of the stuff in Flamingo for object renders, etc., but it has few, diverse and flexible water surface capabilities that have a more realistic quality.

I want a piece of software that can either run inside Rhino or be fully compatible with either IGES, 3DM or any of the standard 3D file types so that I can port to the render package successfully and have a huge range of water render selections.

Please lay it out there for me. I'd like to avoid sampling each and every package to discover that there are really only two, or three, really good packages for this style of work.

Chris Ostlind

[Tad]

Maybe try this one Chris,

http://gameprog.it/hosted/typhoon/index.html

[CGN]

No such software, they all have "glitches", you best bet is V-Ray or Maxwell for rhino but be ready for serious hours of rendering, no "point and shoot" even blender can render nice water scenes, is about the user and lots of practice.

My recomendation is to get "XSI foundation" and learn the basics it will give you way better results than any rhino+render plug in, combination.

cheers

[Raggi_Thor]

My first shots in Maxwell, 40 minutes and 10 minutes, but just 1 minute to set up, and light can be adjusted afterwords....

The boat belong to a customer ( I only helped with Rhino modelling),
Grovfjord Mekaniske Verksted, www.gmv.no

[ludesign]

What took 40 minutes? To render? If so, at what resolution? This 100% TouchCAD generated model, consisting of 204 NURBS surfaces, took 26 seconds to render in Artlantis for Windows at 2700 x 1800 pixels, and on a 1.6 iMac running Windows XP under Paralells.

[Raggi_Thor]

Claes, I am learning a new way to render :-)
I am sure it can be done much faster, but
Maxwell is called a "light simulator", so it will always be slow compared to other methods. maybe it's not he best choice for boats, but light studies in buildings seem to be very close to reality.

[Michael Chudy]

Raggi,
What memory are you running on your computer? Such a simple render shouldn't take but a few moments. I use Flamingo, and I realize some here don't like it much, but it does a pretty good job with lighting at a good speed if you have 2G memory. (All of our renders at http://www.mooseislanddesign.com are either the basic Rhino render or Flamingo)
By the way, are you using Rhino 4 now or are you staying with v3? I'm debating about upgrading, and am not sure it is worthwhile. The 2D stuff still leaves a lot to be desired, and I don't see getting away from a 2D program for my final drawings (I use TurboCad).
Michael

[Steve Baer]

Hi Michael,
Maxwell and Flamingo are very different rendering applications. From the reports I have gotten from users, Maxwell always takes a significant amount of time to render, but the controls for setting up a quailty rendering are very simple and quick.

What "2D stuff" in Rhino 4 do you feel leaves a lot to be desired? I would like to know more about what users feel they need as far as 2D capabilities in Rhino for future additions.

Thanks,
-Steve

[ludesign]

Claes, I am learning a new way to render :-)
I am sure it can be done much faster, but
Maxwell is called a "light simulator", so it will always be slow compared to other methods. maybe it's not he best choice for boats, but light studies in buildings seem to be very close to reality.

What you probably mean is that you are using radiosity rendering, which can take forever to do. This method usually works best for internal renderings, as open shapes allows the calculations to spread over a very wide area, unless you restrict it. Radiosity typically generates more realistic renderings, though it can sometimes be hard to actually tell the difference.

In the example, one of these images was rendered using ray-tracing and one using radiosity. The TouchCAD model was imported into Cheetah3D, so both renderings where done in the same program. One took a minute to render and one took several hours. Can you tell which is which?

[Windvang]

I'm debating about upgrading, and am not sure it is worthwhile.
Michael

I think Rhino 4 is a major upgrade from 3. The ability to have any of your viewports, rendered, shaded, ghosted or as a wireframe is worth the US 295,-alone in my opinion.

[Raggi_Thor]

Michael, as i Said to Claes, I am still learning this new renderer, BUT, yes it seems like both simple and complex models take a long time. On the other side, it always make a realistic picture. I think after a short while i will never have to render more than once. All other rendererers I have tried have involved some trial and error.

[Raggi_Thor]

Claes, I think Maxwell is even more realistic than radiosity, not in the result, but in the process. If you make a prisme of glass you will get a rainbow behind. Will that happen in other programs? The settings are also easier to understand, you have sensitivity as ISO, shuter speed and aperture (like a camera). After the long rendering time you can adjust brightness and contrast and probably other things like color temperature.

[Raggi_Thor]

I am now using Rhino 4.0.
It's better at trimming and merging surfaces also.
I don't use the 3D stuff much as I am an old acad user.
The graphics on screen has improved, I think, with heavier lines on the surface edges, for example.

[Raggi_Thor]

...Can you tell which is which?
The one to the right is radiosity?

[ludesign]

The one to the right is radiosity?

No. :-)

[Raggi_Thor]

I think that proves your point :-)
Longer is not always better...

[Michael Chudy]

Steve - I love Rhino, but these are my problems with v4:

1) Line width does not show up in page layout, only in the actual print. That makes it more difficult to keep track of visually.
2)The page layout scaling is somewhat clumsy. I'd just like to be able to pick an actual scale, say 3/4" = 1 ', like on the printing page.
3) You can't put something in page layout without having a relationship to the actual model. When you turn off a layer, the paper space object gets turned off also. If I want separate details of items in the same paper space that are in different layers it becomes a problem. Now, I can see the benefit of real time relationship between the model and the page layout, but how do I show separate details from separate layers on the same page layout without without the object from one layer showing up in the detail of the other layer?

The first two issues are no big deal, but the third is a problem for me. Am I missing a way around this? ( I hope I am)

Michael

[Steve Baer]

Hi Michael,

1. You can turn line width display in page layouts on/off with the "PrintDisplay" command.

2. A cleaner scaling interface is on my bug list for things to clean up in the future. The good thing about this is that you usually only need to do it once and then lock the scale on your detail.

3. I'm a bit confused about what you are looking for with this item. We do have the "HideInDetail" and "ShowInDetail" commands which turn off the display of objects in individual details. We also have the "HideLayersInDetails" command which does the same thing on a layer scope available at http://en.wiki.mcneel.com/default.aspx/McNeel/RhinoLabsTools.html. This may not be what you're looking for but it seems worth it to describe this here. If you could provide me a little more detail about what you want I can determine if we offer it or if it should go on our wishlist.

Are there other 2D items that you feel leave a lot to be desired?

Thanks,
-Steve

[Raggi_Thor]

Dynamic sections :-)
A section command that updates automatically if you edit the surface,
like the one in Rhinomarine...

3D but OK? A Trim command that Retrims with the same cutting plane/object if the surface is edited...

[Michael Chudy]

Steve-
Thank you! The "print display" works fine. The "hide in detail" accomplishes what I was looking for. I'll check out the plug in for "hide layer". Those were my concerns - thanks again for the info.

In 3D, ditto what Raggi said about real time section updating. I'd love to see it for all the lines - that would be great.

Michael

[Steve Baer]

Dynamic sections :-)
A section command that updates automatically if you edit the surface,
like the one in Rhinomarine...

3D but OK? A Trim command that Retrims with the same cutting plane/object if the surface is edited...

Dynamic sections are already available through RhinoMarine, so this isn't too high on our priority list.

You might want to experiment with enabling history on the Project and Intersect commands. This might get you what you want in both of your situations you mention.

Thanks,
-Steve

[Michael Chudy]

Steve and Raggi,
I've found the "enable history" command to be very useful. I can watch a surface change shape as I move control points of the basis curves used to create it. Also, like Steve said, if you enable history when making a curve from projecting or intersecting, that curve will change shape as you move surface control points. Sort of a back door to dynamic sectioning! Way cool.
Michael

[Raggi_Thor]

Nice tip!
I'll try that :-)

[Steve Baer]

Here are some more ideas on how you could use history.

http://www.rhino3d.com/tutorials/softbox/Soft_boxes.htm

Michael, I'm still concerned about why you stated Rhino's 2D capabilities leave a lot to be desired. Was this just an "on the cuff" comment or is this a common concept in the boat design community? I want to figure out why people would think that and what we could do to improve 2D capabilities in the future. Just a little confused.

Thanks,
-Steve

[CGN]

Steve why you ask??, you know users want 2DCAD features running in rhino basically eliminate the need to use an external 2D Cad software.

IMO i prefer rhino to stay on the 3D modeling side. Leave 2D for 2D applications.

[Steve Baer]

Hi CGN,
We are by no means leaving the 3D modeling side. At the same time we have received a large number of requests over the years to add more drafting capabilities to Rhino and that is what we did in V4.

I was just concerned because it sounded like Michael was originally planning on not purchasing V4 because the 2D capabilities were not at a level that he needed. It sounded like this was a case where a potential customer would not want to upgrade because we did not meet his expectations of what the next version should be capable of.

Thanks,
-Steve

[Michael Chudy]

Steve,
Perhaps a little bit of both. As I learn more about 2D in Rhino 4, I realize I was wrong about that comment. I have used v3 for 3 years now, and used to do all my final drawings by hand because of the limited 2D capabilities in v3 for final drawing layout. Last year I got TurboCad for some of my drawings, (still doing by hand the ones I want to look more artistic), but using Turbocad after Rhino is so frustrating. Well, I finally got the hang of TurboCad, and now am trying to see if Rhino 4 can replace it for my final drawings. I went through the "Accessing page layout" tutorial, (had to hunt it down in the WIKI section) but was still left with the problems I mentioned earlier. Now I am slowly learning that v4 really can do what I need it to, and am very impressed with the improvements you have made. But the learnig curve has to fit in to my daily work schedule, which makes it slow.
As to the industry as a whole, I do think there is still the perception that Rhino can't replace an old fashioned 2D program for final 2D drawings. That should change as more people become aware of the improvements in v4. Perhaps more aggressive marketing of those changes would help? I know you have a list of the new capabilities in the "whats new in v4" section of the website, but more tutorials might help.
Thanks for all you help.
Michael

[Steve Baer]

Hi Michael,
We aren't trying to completely replace 2D programs with V4, just help streamline the workflow. By adding support for things like line types, line widths, and hatches it should be easier to get more of your information from Rhino into the 2D CAD application of your choice or from your 2D CAD application into Rhino.

Thanks for your feedback. It is always appreciated.
-Steve

[CGN]

Thanks Steve great to have someone from rhino listening to our comments, I have one comment, have you seen moi3D?, the polygon conversion is great and easy i always wonder why rhino was not able to achieve something similar to moi3d, i know the new version has a lot of control on meshes (and myself i learned how to use them since V2) but i was surprised to see how well the conversion form nurbs to mesh works on moi3d. is it something that rhino can do to facilitate such translation (nurb to mesh)?

Thanks

[Steve Baer]

Hi CGN,
There are an awful lot of meshing options in Rhino and meshes are used for such a wide variety of purposes that it is hard to have a "perfect" solution mesh for every purpose with a single setting. What type of meshes are you talking about (for display, STL output, FEA, subdivision surfaces, export to a different program,...)?

Thanks,
-Steve

[CGN]

Rendering.... I mentioned I know how to use it (mesh settings) and what mesh settings I need when fea or rendering or stl output, if you have look at moi3d and check how it manages the conversion of nurb to mesh you will see what I’m talking about, I don't mind the time converting to fea o stl is great to have all the options to tweak the mesh, but when rendering I would like to see something like moi3d simple and fast it produces good mesh without having to play with the settings too much.

cheers

[Steve Baer]

Hi CGN,
If you are having problems with the render meshes that you are getting out of Rhino, then we probably need to look at your model to figure out what we are doing wrong.

Thanks,
-Steve

[CGN]

No problems with meshes, please read the post...but problem with time expend on tweak the settings until i get the right mesh that i like, just looking at moi3d the way it handles converting nurbs to meshes really fast and simple.

And i can use such in rhino to speed up converting a full model of a boat to mesh to render on other applications (wich i do now but now using a little bit more moi3d)

Thanks

[Tgoy]

Cobalt sells for $5000.00, and it was programed by CSI who sells their version of CAD, Concepts Unlimited for $1800.00. It is nearly identical to Cobalt CAD. Puch Software bought out CSI. Punch specializes in very low cost software and relies on volume sales and they now sell ViaCAD which happens to be, you guessed it, a clone of CU. This software now sells for $99.00 and is a clone of Cobalt. This is real and the software is good. The surface modeling of ViaCAD may not be another Rhino CAD but it is worth a look.

[Raggi_Thor]

Funny, I just looked at ViaCAD the other day and thought it sounded too good to be true :-) Can it save as IGES or STEP? If it can you ca use it with Alibre Xpress, the free version, for parametric solids inside the hull, maybe.

[Raggi_Thor]

Regarding Maxwell Render,
Novedge has a nice gallery of examples,
http://www.novedge.com/Gallery.asp?GID=74&AFTK=NV0307
If you find "Boat" in the pull down liste, you get this one (made by Keytoon, probably) :

[CGN]

Yes Viacad can save iges and step and acis, still early to say but at least for some one looking to start serious 3d modeling this is a very complete software for a good price i may even get one to use it as a translator for sat solids. send emails to the guy that wrote the sofwtare and ask him for demo they don't have a demo available (for viacad) yet,

http://www.punchcad.com/products/ViaCADDataSheet.pdf

tim.olson@punchsoftware.com
he wrote cobalt (or most of it)

cheers

[Chris Ostlind]

Regarding Maxwell Render,
Novedge has a nice gallery of examples. If you find "Boat" in the pull down list, you get this one :

And that's the kind of "water" that would be remarkably variable with coloration, lighting and reflective surface effects.

Chris

[Raggi_Thor]

Thanks, CGN.
Chris, didn't you like it?

[Chris Ostlind]

Oh... I liked it a lot. Is that water surface variable and adjustable as a separate surface when in render mode? Does it have the capacity to behave as a water body and stay out of the form that would be illustrated as the boat?

[frigate_warship]

there are many sofwares more helpfull with users, i have known about Nupas_Cadmatic is for structural modelings, Piping and Electrically field,
Paramarine is for design and calculating on Warship and Submarine
and Napa is the best software for Hull design and calculatings.

[Raggi_Thor]

Next version of Flamingo from McNeel can be downloaded and tested.
Works easily with Rhino.
Don't find water, so this is just a flat plate and a background photo: