DynaRig MotorSailer, ala Maltese Falcon

[brian eiland]

"Sail, the historic implement of world exploration, has within itself many new horizons that beckon for pursuit, but you have to be willing to venture past charted waters." - Gary Hoyt

This quote from Gary Hoyt has never been more illuminating than today, when I introduce a new motorsailing design that sports 'another unusual sailing rig'. An inventive and resourceful gentleman, Tom Perkins, has 'ventured past charted waters' to bring us a modern version of the old square-rigger, the DynaRig. He has done it in a big way with a real-life 'proof-of-concept' aboard his innovative and fabulous new 290' superyacht, Maltese Falcon.

My prior 'mast-aft ketch' had elicited notable resistance among members of the conservative sailing community, but I retain that discussion here on the website for those who can't grasp the newest concept of a free-standing, square-rigger. The DynaRig's application to a multihulled vessel is addressed under the new section, DynaRig MotorSailer (http://www.runningtideyachts.com/dynarig/). The selling this new design and rig should be quite a bit easier following the prototyping provided by Maltese Falcon.

[OldYachtie]

Gosh, you could haul it aft a bit, and add control sheets to the spars. Oh, wait a minute, then it would be a junk rig. Well, since we went that far, why not put unstayed masts in each hull, and have a bi-plane junk rig. That would have many advantages from an engineering and sailing point of view.;)

[yipster]

Brian, wrong thread but like to reply and share okay?
OldYachtie; sort of like team phillips or what i drew up below
with me wondering about aperant wind in lateral sails
i now see Tom Speer's study's on riggid twin wings, wow
http://www.tspeer.com/landyachts/twin/Concept.html
http://www.tspeer.com/landyachts/twin/yacht.jpg

[OldYachtie]

Re the last four thumbnails: Plus, you couldn't see it on radar, I bet. Looks just like a stealth plane or navy ship. Great for 21st century pirates, ar ar! Swash me buckles, matey!

[Guillermo]

Brian,
I really do like your new design of a motorsailer cat with the DynaRig, and find it appealing to cruising people (I don't know about big game fishers. Maybe those are another kind of guys). To my taste it's a much more 'sellable' concept than your previous aftmast one (this said without discredit of this one). I also like the Rim-Driven diesel-electric propulsion you suggest. A nice modern concept of a motorsailer. Congratulations. I wish you the best of lucks with this new project.
Cheers.

[brian eiland]

Does she sail....and beautifully

[yipster]

that’s sure looking good and no bad words from me on the airorig but I see more innovation in a folding aft bipod with its clean leading edge sail

a quik search learned solid wings deliver almost twice the effort with less drag vs soft sails that again perform better downwind

than a platonic fictional vision of a “beetle rig” came to my mind.
it wasn’t the booz and girlfrend dont wanna hear so pardon me telling / asking you sailing anargists again

when a ladybird wants to fly she opens her hard shelled wings and than from under there another pair of soft membrane wings.
made me somehow think of raising solid wing masts and fwd sails on a boat; time to see a shrink bout my boat syndrome?

confusing hypothetics and when thinking of the science I wonder if it isn’t better to exit to patching up my canvas, spring is here

ah well, i'll enter, said stranger things before i figger so here a spotted ladybird
http://www.nature-shetland.co.uk/naturelatest/pics05/ladybird.jpg

[Guillermo]

I've posted a new post at the New Propulsion Systems for Ships thread, which is also in relation with Brian's big game fishing catamaran concept:

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=130326&postcount=285

Cheers.

[brian eiland]

Now that is rather innovative, and very interesting

[yipster]

as Brian sayd
i like that motorsailer and thanks for the link
think its even in relation with beetle above

[mydauphin]

Where can I get more info on this Kite powered motorsailor rig? thanks

[brian eiland]

Where can I get more info on this Kite powered motorsailor rig? thanks
Did you follow those links posted above, and did you visit the Skysail website??

I plan to draw up an adaptation of the SkySail rig to my 62-65 motorsailing catamaran real soon. And then a bit later include a tri-hull arrangement in that same size range, as contrasted to the Humphrey's 132 footer

[brian eiland]

I recently wrote with regards to an inquiry about a 40-ish version:

Unlike my 'single-masted ketch' design that I feel is not necessarily appropriate for a vessel of less than 45 feet, the DynaRig is appropriate for this smaller size vessel. In fact a ‘3-panel’ dynarig might be considered rather than the 4 panels of my new 63 foot DynaRig cat design, or the 5 panels of Falcon. However, I would still favor the 4 panel configuration, as it offers more variation in reef-able sail areas. And with my simplified sail furling mechanisms, it doesn’t add that much weight or complication to the overall rig.

Falcon’s dynarig was complicated by requiring the sails to be furled up inside the mast thru a hollow slot on one side;
1) the mast itself needed a slot in itself all the way down one side of the already weaker side of an elliptical cross-section. This necessitated an internal structure be built into the carbon mast section to reinforce it at the slot area

2) the furling mechanism then needed to be built inside the mast section, and a complicated track mechanism was required to guide the edges of the sails out onto the bridges to the yardarms & the yardarms themselves



I am proposing a much simpler furling and track mechanism for this modern square-rigger concept:
1) The mast will not have internal stowage of the sails, so no slot is required, nor internal support structure. It will be a simple elliptical section that will taper at either end to a smaller section at the top and a circular section at the bottom….not that much more complicated than an ordinary carbon mast for a sloop rigged vessel with a mainsail attached. It might also be a ‘sealed unit’ for ultimate flotation purposes.

2) Each rectangular sail will furl around a ‘wire’ (PBO, Kevlar, Spectra, carbon, etc) sewn across its mid-girth, and having eyes at both ends that clevis pin into ‘continuous line furling drums’ as you might find on ‘Code’ type reaching sails. The sails are constructed of low-tech, light-weight ordinary Dacron, and are of such relatively small dimensions that when furled around a very small diameter ‘wire’, they present a very small diameter package to the elements when ‘stowed away’. Each individual sail panel can be quickly and easily replaced, and inexpensively as well.

3) The furling drums are incorporated into the leading edges of the yardarms/bridges so as to present less windage, and they are’ stacked’ up vertically end to end in a line such that they ‘share’ bearings at either end. One small electric motor drives each panel for furling. For each panel of sail there are two (top & bottom) additional motors to unfurl the sail.

4) The yardarm ‘bridges’ can be shorter in length than Falcon’s with many inherent advantages including the more readily usable ‘forestay arrangement’ with or without a ‘code’ type reaching sail. Shorter lever arms requires less power to rotate the rig as a whole.

5) Three of the yardarms are of equal length thus less production cost…in fact probably these three would be only slightly more expensive than the elaborate furling/stowing booms now found on many ‘ordinary’, modern, short-handed sloop rigs.

6) The low-tech, Dacron sails of this rig should present some considerable savings over those modern sails for Bermudan rigs, and help offset the other initial extra cost of the Dynarig.

7) The sealed mast and yardarms could offer the flotation for the ultimate non-capsizing protection.

These proposed changes to the original Falcon’s interpretation of the DynaRig concept should result in a less expensive version, which is just as viable in sailing characteristics as the Maltese Falcon is proving to be.

[charmc]

II am proposing a much simpler furling and track mechanism for this modern square-rigger concept: ....

These proposed changes to the original Falcon’s interpretation of the DynaRig concept should result in a less expensive version, which is just as viable in sailing characteristics as the Maltese Falcon is proving to be.

Brian,

I wrote elsewhere that I like your concept for the smaller square rigger. Your ideas for simplifying the rigging make sense; I don't know if there will be any performance improvements; on the other hand, I can't see anything to detract from performance.

You're on the right track (sorry, couldn't help that), particularly since clients like Tom Perkins don't come around too often. :) You're working on innovative toys for the "average" wealthy guy. Hopefully, you'll sell a bunch.

[FAST FRED]

Each rectangular sail will furl around a ‘wire’ (PBO, Kevlar, Spectra, carbon, etc) sewn across its mid-girth, and having eyes at both ends that clevis pin into ‘continuous line furling drums’ as you might find on ‘Code’ type reaching sails.

Rope doesn't resist torque well , the sails might reef as poorly as the old setups with sewn in wire .

A simple solution (from the 1800's) is to use a chain under tension when rolling up.

The chain resists torque well with minimum tension , although sail attachment may need hand sewing.The chain sails can be bagged , SS wired cant.

FF

[brian eiland]

Rope doesn't resist torque well , the sails might reef as poorly as the old setups with sewn in wire .

A simple solution (from the 1800's) is to use a chain under tension when rolling up.

The chain resists torque well with minimum tension , although sail attachment may need hand sewing.The chain sails can be bagged , SS wired cant.

FF
I understand where you are coming from, but remember I am not asking these sails to 'reef' (partially furl). They are either fully deployed or fully rolled up. The relatively short lengths of these individual 'mid girth wires' is much shorter than std forestays. Some of the synthectic riggings are much better in torque than 'rope'.

[brian eiland]

I understand where you are coming from, but remember I am not asking these sails to 'reef' (partially furl). They are either fully deployed or fully rolled up. The relatively short lengths of these individual 'mid girth wires' is much shorter than std forestays. Some of the synthectic riggings are much better in torque than 'rope'.
Actually I'm coming back to the idea of just using 'solid rod' for these 'mid girth wires'....can be relatively small dia, so not that much more weight, handles the variation of load/no-load better than synthetics, and is cheaper and longer lasting than syns

[brian eiland]

I received a rather nice press release in an up-scale yachting publication just recently

Dyna Cat

[yipster]

compliments, thats a very very good article
did you see the rough ladybird pdf (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14475&d=1182962063) i made?
okay inspired but many paralel thoughts :cool:

[mydauphin]

Yipster, Great Ladybug PDF. Hope you build it one day. I like concept - I wonder how concept could be adapted to a large monohull ... How much sail is needed to move a 70 footer that weights 70,000 at 7-9 knots.

[yipster]

thanks mydauphin, ehr.. think others here can answer that question better and faster but did order marchaj's books.
forexample procyon has a strikable bipod. like making some schetches to see what aspects of concept to alter and have some L/B and deck dimensions.

[charmc]

Congratulations, Brian, that's a nice writeup. Hopefully good for business!

[charmc]

Beautiful design, Yipster. Hope you get the funds to build it!

[Guillermo]

I received a rather nice press release in an up-scale yachting publication just recently
Dyna Cat
Congs, Brian. As I told you, I like your DynaRig Cat concept. Good luck!

[SeaSpark]

In one of the Yachting World articles about Maltese Falcon was a detailed explanation by Gerard Dijkstra about why the Dynarig is not suited for a sloop configuration. As far as i can remember the main reason was the the inability to trim lateral sail balance.

[yipster]

eh, ah, that my ladybird can, reefing in stages tho
this beeing the intruded thread this idea got up why not a short animation
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/500/ps.gif

[Pericles]

SeaSpark,

Have searched Yachting World for article about Maltese Falcon, but cannot find it. Could you post more information please?

Pericles

[Pericles]

An interesting comparison between specially rigged proa and catamaran models.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-AzmNEj0EE

Pericles

[Landlubber]

Pericles,
try these mate, she is one hell of a yacht.
http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/20060513151951ywnews.html
http://www.yachtingworld.com/yw/supersail/falcon.html
http://www.ybw.com/yw/blog/20060908111845blog_david_glenn.html
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/perini-navi-yacht/2487-perini-navi-maltese-falcon-sailing-yacht.html

[Pericles]

LandLubber,

She's a real beaut!:D

More years ago than I care to remember, I learned about a square rigged topsail gaffer schooner that used a pulley system to deploy the rectangular sail, outwards from the foremast, on rings sliding along the upper and lower spars. I've been thinking it was Joshua Slocum's design, but I can't be sure.

The sail could be set or reefed in seconds, like pulling curtains. With a bit of tweaking it would not be too difficult to emulate the Dyna Rig by laminating the spars from marine ply and epoxy, to create a 12 degree arc and then rigging the sails, top and bottom in sail tracks. A bit of muscle power on inhaul and outhaul sheets, passing down to the deck from the outer ends of all the spars and which are then cleated off, would position the rotating mast for upwind work. A car disc brake at the base of the mast would lock things quite securely. This square rig system is only suited for broad beam fast catamarans, as Brian Eiland has so effectively demonstrated, because although the mast rotates, it is still supported by very widely positioned stays.

OK, so there are a few more ropes, but we are sailors after all. It's what we do, haul 'em up, reef 'em in. :( :( :( Also, I must have a mainbrace to splice and a yard arm for hanging pirates.:P :P

Avast behind, me hearties!

Pericles

[Landlubber]

Pericles, no wonder women do not understand men, I would have been a pirate in another life, it really must have been a very adventurous time sailing around plundering wealth merchants. Today all we are allowed to do is go sailing still, but those times also will be limited if the dogooders have their ways, we would have to be licenced to go to sea, must have the manning, even if we want to sail solo or limited, have to wear hard hats, steel capped boots etc etc, "if it only saves one life"....oh please, let me go free.........

She is truely a woonderful little ship... great that someone would think outside the square, but put the money on the table too....that is the hard part.

[Pericles]

Become a private contractor and apply for Letters of Marque from Congress. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque

Pericles

[SeaSpark]

Sorry Pericles, can't find the "Dynarig not for sloop" article either. There have been at least three multiple page articles about Maltese Falcon in Yachting World and have got only one at home. I'm pretty, sure it was in YW but i can be wrong, i read a lot of magazines and many of them featured MF the past Year.

I will try to find it.

[Tad]

http://www.hiswasymposium.com/symposium_papers.asp

Included is the best paper on the Dyna rig application, see 2004 papers.

JD explains that esthetics played a large part in rig geometry for Maltese Falcon. But in the context of an 87 meter vessel, certainly a single un-stayed mast version would not be sensible.

Tad

[yipster]

http://www.balancedrig.com/balancedrig_images/cruisingworld.jpg
found Tads good link and this balanced rig (http://www.balancedrig.com/) while thinking and searching
how a (up to 40% better sailing) aerorig may work in bi or A masts

[BigCat]

http://www.dunnanddunnrealtors.com/wingsail9.jpg

From http://www.dunnanddunnrealtors.com/Catamaran.html

[brian eiland]

http://www.hiswasymposium.com/symposium_papers.asp

Included is the best paper on the Dyna rig application, see 2004 papers.
Thanks Tad, I had missed seeing this paper...probably as I only had a cursory interest at that time

[brian eiland]

Just months after beginning the construction of a Sunreef 102 Double Decker, Poland's Sunreef Yachts has received an order for a 32m (106ft) multihull based on the exterior lines of the Sunreef 100.

The new Sunreef 106 Sailing is being built for a European client, and its modern interior is the result of close cooperation between the Sunreef in-house design team and the yacht's new owner.

''We've been receiving many inquiries for large custom yachts which is gratifying and supports our strategy to build these kind of boats," says Sunreef VP Nicolas Lapp. ''With our first two superyachts due to be launched in the coming years, we have now achieved our goal to be recognised as a builder of large custom yachts that only happen to be multihulls."

Headquartered in Gdansk, Poland, Sunreef Yachts specialises in luxury sailing catamarans and claims to be the first and only shipyard in the world to have under construction two multihulls over 30m (100ft). The company also builds monohulls and power catamarans, including the Sunreef 67 Power, which is due to be launched in April 2008.
(1 April 2008)

...I knew I needed some exposure in Europe, Brian

[brian eiland]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJBzk5b3b7o

[schakel]

as Brian sayd
i like that motorsailer and thanks for the link
think its even in relation with beetle above

Ha, Fun to joke when it comes to littelary translated dutch translations but to get to your design;

Is that a skysail (a kite like the kite surfers?) kind of thing you were planning in your sketch. Great but the yacht is so heavy it benifits only a little when it comes to the uplift effect of a kite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP0x7naNZ0A

[brian eiland]

Is that a skysail (a kite like the kite surfers?) kind of thing you were planning in your sketch. Great but the yacht is so heavy it benifits only a little when it comes to the uplift effect of a kite.
That sketch was just at the point of launching the kite, not for lifting.

....more here
New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/new-age-trawler-motorsailer-kite-assisted-poweryacht-20319.html)

[dskira]

I recently wrote with regards to an inquiry about a 40-ish version:

Unlike my 'single-masted ketch' design that I feel is not necessarily appropriate for a vessel of less than 45 feet, the DynaRig is appropriate for this smaller size vessel. In fact a ‘3-panel’ dynarig might be considered rather than the 4 panels of my new 63 foot DynaRig cat design, or the 5 panels of Falcon. However, I would still favor the 4 panel configuration, as it offers more variation in reef-able sail areas. And with my simplified sail furling mechanisms, it doesn’t add that much weight or complication to the overall rig.

Falcon’s dynarig was complicated by requiring the sails to be furled up inside the mast thru a hollow slot on one side;
1) the mast itself needed a slot in itself all the way down one side of the already weaker side of an elliptical cross-section. This necessitated an internal structure be built into the carbon mast section to reinforce it at the slot area

2) the furling mechanism then needed to be built inside the mast section, and a complicated track mechanism was required to guide the edges of the sails out onto the bridges to the yardarms & the yardarms themselves



I am proposing a much simpler furling and track mechanism for this modern square-rigger concept:
1) The mast will not have internal stowage of the sails, so no slot is required, nor internal support structure. It will be a simple elliptical section that will taper at either end to a smaller section at the top and a circular section at the bottom….not that much more complicated than an ordinary carbon mast for a sloop rigged vessel with a mainsail attached. It might also be a ‘sealed unit’ for ultimate flotation purposes.

2) Each rectangular sail will furl around a ‘wire’ (PBO, Kevlar, Spectra, carbon, etc) sewn across its mid-girth, and having eyes at both ends that clevis pin into ‘continuous line furling drums’ as you might find on ‘Code’ type reaching sails. The sails are constructed of low-tech, light-weight ordinary Dacron, and are of such relatively small dimensions that when furled around a very small diameter ‘wire’, they present a very small diameter package to the elements when ‘stowed away’. Each individual sail panel can be quickly and easily replaced, and inexpensively as well.

3) The furling drums are incorporated into the leading edges of the yardarms/bridges so as to present less windage, and they are’ stacked’ up vertically end to end in a line such that they ‘share’ bearings at either end. One small electric motor drives each panel for furling. For each panel of sail there are two (top & bottom) additional motors to unfurl the sail.

4) The yardarm ‘bridges’ can be shorter in length than Falcon’s with many inherent advantages including the more readily usable ‘forestay arrangement’ with or without a ‘code’ type reaching sail. Shorter lever arms requires less power to rotate the rig as a whole.

5) Three of the yardarms are of equal length thus less production cost…in fact probably these three would be only slightly more expensive than the elaborate furling/stowing booms now found on many ‘ordinary’, modern, short-handed sloop rigs.

6) The low-tech, Dacron sails of this rig should present some considerable savings over those modern sails for Bermudan rigs, and help offset the other initial extra cost of the Dynarig.

7) The sealed mast and yardarms could offer the flotation for the ultimate non-capsizing protection.

These proposed changes to the original Falcon’s interpretation of the DynaRig concept should result in a less expensive version, which is just as viable in sailing characteristics as the Maltese Falcon is proving to be.


Did you do a cost estimate compere to a more classical rig?
Cost is often the difference between possible and impossible.
The MF was possible because a large amount on money was pouring in without restrain. It is not a viable model for any boat.
But if your simplified the rig to a cost at the same level as a, let say, a full batened classic multihull rig, why not? And they are not cheap.
Cheers
Daniel

[brian eiland]

Gosh, you could haul it aft a bit, and add control sheets to the spars. Oh, wait a minute, then it would be a junk rig. Well, since we went that far, why not put unstayed masts in each hull, and have a bi-plane junk rig. That would have many advantages from an engineering and sailing point of view.;)
That is what this fellow is proposing, a bi-plane version:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/square-rig-variation-30031.html (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/square-rig-variation-30031.html)

[brian eiland]

Did you do a cost estimate compere to a more classical rig?
Cost is often the difference between possible and impossible.
The MF was possible because a large amount on money was pouring in without restrain. It is not a viable model for any boat.
But if your simplified the rig to a cost at the same level as a, let say, a full batened classic multihull rig, why not? And they are not cheap.
Cheers
Daniel
I did no cost comparison as I had no final alternative configuration yet. But this other subject thread (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/square-rig-variation-30031.html) has me thinking about a 'bare bones' version....buildable in back yard. Started writing and sketching a bit yesterday, but now headed to Florida to visit an old friend for a week. So probably won't finish that until I return.

[richard sauter]

DynaRig sounds impressive, but a sail by any other name is not much of a sail if it doesn't function as a well designed wing. When it comes to determining the best sail design there are no uncharted waters. It has been proven time and again that nothing beats a Wing sail.

Why venture past chartered waters when what you seek is staring you in the face?

[brian eiland]

Are you ready to take a wing sail into the ocean for a long voyage??...with all of the variety of wind conditions you experience there??

[ancient kayaker]

I have, for the time being anyway, abandoned my plans to make a dynarig sail/mast assembly for my small sailboat.

The reason for this is my concern about what will happen during a change of tack. The entire sail will be backwinded simultaneously with heeling moment reversing suddenly at "top dead center". In a decent breeze the resulting violent motions of the hull and stresses on the mast worry me.

The only ways to safely change tack appear to be, either wear ship or reduce sail area prior to tacking.

No doubt a multi-masted ship such as Maltese Falcon can rotate one mast at a time or quickly reduce sail area using its powered controls. An old-timer square rigged vessel had sails that could be retrimmed one at a time and also fore-and-aft sails, also air can be easily spilled from the softer sails of yore.

For this reason I suspect that, in the long run, wingsails will prove safer and more practical that the dynarig. However, there is a lot of development and learning needs to happen before wingsails will be seen on anything other than specialized boats. In the meantime conventional sails are getting better and better.

[richard sauter]

Am I ready to take a wing sail into the ocean for a long voyage??...with all of the variety of wind conditions you experience there? Yes, if the vessel is modeled after “Formula Zero”

www.SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

[dskira]

Am I ready to take a wing sail into the ocean for a long voyage??...with all of the variety of wind conditions you experience there? Yes, if the vessel is modeled after “Formula Zero”

www.SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

I didn't see anything in your website explaining your design. What is formula zero?
Are you trying to sell and idea or a design?
Just asking
Daniel

[richard sauter]

Here are a complete set of elevations along with plan views of each deck

[dskira]

Am I ready to take a wing sail into the ocean for a long voyage??...with all of the variety of wind conditions you experience there? Yes, if the vessel is modeled after “Formula Zero”

www.SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

Do you have a prototype or a testing model?
Did you try a prototype by all sort of wind and sea?
I am sure you didn't state the above without serious study because is quite a serious statement which require some kind of back up.
Can we hear?
Daniel

[richard sauter]

Wave piercing displacement hulls reaching speeds of 55 knots have been in service for 2 decades. T-foils and stern flaps at least one decade. Slotted symmetric Wingsails, when allowed to compete against traditional sails have always won. Bi-wing sail configurations are common place on the fastest group of sailing vessels. In the Shipbuilding industry diesel electric azimuthing propulsion with counter rotating propellers are accepted as the most efficient system yet devised.

The claims I make are not solely based on my prototypes and the results I achieved at the MIRA wind tunnel, but on proven examples of highly successful commercial and completive vessels.

According to a recent statement made by Richard Branson, achieving the IMO’s target of a 75% reduction in GHG emissions in boats by employing existing technology is totally realistic.

file:///E:/WEB%20E/richard-branson-aims-rock-boat-green-shipping.htm


Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

[dskira]

Wave piercing displacement hulls reaching speeds of 55 knots have been in service for 2 decades. T-foils and stern flaps at least one decade. Slotted symmetric Wingsails, when allowed to compete against traditional sails have always won. Bi-wing sail configurations are common place on the fastest group of sailing vessels. In the Shipbuilding industry diesel electric azimuthing propulsion with counter rotating propellers are accepted as the most efficient system yet devised.

The claims I make are not solely based on my prototypes and the results I achieved at the MIRA wind tunnel, but on proven examples of highly successful commercial and completive vessels.

According to a recent statement made by Richard Branson, achieving the IMO’s target of a 75% reduction in GHG emissions in boats by employing existing technology is totally realistic.

file:///E:/WEB%20E/richard-branson-aims-rock-boat-green-shipping.htm


Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

Are you talking sailing boat or motor boat?
As for Richard Branson statement let me tell you something: he is the king of MARKETING. Don't be a fool please.
Big name is not to impress the NA community, and you seams to be confuse by lot of different systems.
And a lot of sell pitch.
Sorry for that, but you have to be more specific that copying what other said or did.
I am not trying to offend you just professional curiosity.
Daniel

[richard sauter]

I stand behind Richard Branson, who stands behind the IMO, who stands behind shipbuilding giants like Wartsila, BMT, and the ONR.

Who do you stand behind?

Be specific.

I invite all those “professionals” like yourself, who stand behind you, to write in and be counted.

Lets keep it short and simple, a PRO IMO or PRO DAN will do.

Many who reply will invariably embellish their stand. Seeing no necessity for me to defend the IMO, Wartsila, BMT or the ONR, I reserve the right not to enter into a debate with a PRO DAN.

Boat designers that abstain from voting I will assume are PRO IMO

Richard Sauter


Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

www.SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

[dskira]

I stand behind Richard Branson, who stands behind the IMO, who stands behind shipbuilding giants like Wartsila, BMT, and the ONR.

Who do you stand behind?

Be specific.

I invite all those “professionals” like yourself, who stand behind you, to write in and be counted.

Lets keep it short and simple, a PRO IMO or PRO DAN will do.

Many who reply will invariably embellish their stand. Seeing no necessity for me to defend the IMO, Wartsila, BMT or the ONR, I reserve the right not to enter into a debate with a PRO DAN.

Boat designers that abstain from voting I will assume are PRO IMO

Richard Sauter


Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

www.SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

You stand being what you want, but that is no proof.
I don't have to tell you to whom I stand behind because it is a very ridiculous question, quite childish.
If I stand being the NASA doesn't mean I can go to the moon by myself. You get it?
Show us some numbers, prototype, studies not cute design of the interior.
Your marketer Branson broke is boat in pieces. And is no boat designer nor naval architect, he just make money and make people like you a fool.
But it is not about him, it's about you, and to be frank you seams quite ignorant of the principle of naval architecture.
As for pro IMO or pro Dan, we hit a high level of stupidity.
Since WE DON'T KNOW NOTHING ABOUT YOUR BOAT, nobody can be behind anything.

Daniel

[richard sauter]

Pro Dan

One

Pro IMO

All but one

Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

www.SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

[Jeff]

Let's not get hostile here, please.

[dskira]

Let's not get hostile here, please.

Don't to worry, I am out of this thread. :cool:
Daniel

[ancient kayaker]

Me too.

[Tad]

This Richard Branson? Looks like this lady is ahead in "Standing behind"......errr, perhaps she's just hanging back a bit?

41956

He's obviously an expert in energy consumption and conservation......

But back to the Formula Zero.......Are you seriously stating that building monster wing-sailed luxury catamarans is going to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? The disconnect is stunning.......no one needs that thing....so just stop......don't build it and really reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Or is that the idea.....sell rich folks pretty pictures of themselves sitting on the deck of this thing....and use the money to feed people in Haiti.

[richard sauter]

We all need to become “experts” on reducing GHG emissions
or perish.

If it weren’t for the mind set of the “rich” we would still be living in the stone age.

www.SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

[Timothy]

People in the stone age lived lived better and longer than the majority of people today. It was't until we ate the forbidden fruit and adopted agriculture that rich people became possible. Its been all down hill for everybody else since then.

[CT 249]

Slotted symmetric Wingsails, when allowed to compete against traditional sails have always won.

No they haven't. Ben Hall's A Class was beaten into (I think) 30th place at the worlds, despite carrying a slotted wingsail. And I think there were two 18 Squares with slotted wingsails that had good, but not amazing, records. My memory is vague on them.

So (leaving out the 18 Squares on which my memory is vague) that's two classes that use slotted wings, and they win in one of the two.

Of course, we could drop in the proa Rozieres, which had a slotted wing if I recall correctly, but my information on her is in storage and she never actually finished a race. Perhaps it would be unfair to note that the score could therefore be 2-1 against slotted wings, or perhaps 3-1 if my very vague memory about the 18 Squares being beaten is correct.

And, of course, there are many classes that are allowed to use slotted wingsails in which they have never been tried. These classes are such innovative ones as the Moths and windsurfers. Such classes have tried wing masts and found that the aerodynamic efficiency is outweighed by weight and handing problems, sometimes meaning that you're just better off with a taller soft rig for the same weight. The point is that experience in such classes appears to indicate that theoretical efficiency is not the be-all and end-all in reality.

If wing masts have been proven to be slower than softer sails (despite a higher theoretical efficiency) in these boats, surely it is reasonable to think that wingsails could also be less effective in reality on many classes? After all, there have been numerous attempts at a non-slotted wing in conventional monos. These also supposedly offered superior performance that failed to show up in real life.

This is NOT saying that slotted wings are not fantastic and obviously amazing performers on the right boats, because we all know they are. However, the fact that they work on some boats (maybe 8 in the world at the moment?) is not proof that they are the best for all craft.




Bi-wing sail configurations are common place on the fastest group of sailing vessels.

Could you please provide us with information to back this claim?

[richard sauter]

I see now that what I said was a gross overstatement of the facts. Of course you are right, a poorly made, poorly designed wingsail of the same area might not always beat a rag, but properly designed and properly made it should in boats over 50 feet. Why else did the Oracle keep it a secrete?

If I had said in vessels over 18 feet would I be correct?

Thanks for taking the time to help me get my facts straight.

Sincerely

Richard

Richard@SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

www.SauterCarbonOffsetDesign.com

[CT 249]

Lots of sailors have kept lots of things secret; Australia II's wing keel, the Kiwi Hula, Mariner's stern, Conner's multiple certificates are some that spring to mind. Not all of them work, so the fact that an AC team keeps something secret has no bearing on whether or not something works.

For the rest of it, much remains to be seen. One inshore light-wind regatta where a huge high tech cat raced a huge high tech tri is not what anyone would call a good test of all-round all-weather ability. Yeah, in the conditions the AC was sailed in, the wing was outstanding - but whether such a rig would handle ocean conditions or perform oustandingly well on a heavier boat is something we've never seen tested.

I've never used a solid wing, but I've sailed with and owned a bunch of wing masts and wing-like extended luff pockets. While they are impressive performers, in reality they never seem to show the sort of speed advantage that is often claimed for them in theory. I've always found it interesting (and probably highly significant) that there are about three distinct types of craft where wing masts, wing sails and wing-style large pocket luffs perform really well, but there's another bunch of craft where they don't seem to show a performance advantage.

[FAST FRED]

"People in the stone age lived lived better and longer than the majority of people today."

If you liked dieing (most) before the age of 5, or living to the ripe old age of 30 then dieing , you will love the stone age.

No dentist , no drugs or antibotics , no food but what they found wandering about, , not exactally most folks idea of Utopia.

FF

[ancient kayaker]

"People in the stone age lived lived better and longer than the majority of people today."

If you liked dieing (most) before the age of 5, or living to the ripe old age of 30 then dieing , you will love the stone age.

No dentist , no drugs or antibotics , no food but what they found wandering about, , not exactally most folks idea of Utopia.

FF

-and some of the food would try to kill you! Mind you, when I think of all the salt and cholesterol in a hamburger ...

[Timothy]

Author And Page Information
by Anup ShahThis Page Last Updated Sunday, March 28, 2010
This page: http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats.
To print all information e.g. expanded side notes, shows alternative links, use the print version:
http://www.globalissues.org/print/article/26
Almost half the world — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day.



At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day.Source 1

More than 80 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where income differentials are widening.Source 2

The poorest 40 percent of the world’s population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income.Source 3

According to UNICEF, 24,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”Source 4

Around 27-28 percent of all children in developing countries are estimated to be underweight or stunted. The two regions that account for the bulk of the deficit are South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.

If current trends continue, the Millennium Development Goals target of halving the proportion of underweight children will be missed by 30 million children, largely because of slow progress in Southern Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.Source 5

Based on enrolment data, about 72 million children of primary school age in the developing world were not in school in 2005; 57 per cent of them were girls. And these are regarded as optimisitic numbers.Source 6

Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.Source 7

Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.Source 8

Infectious diseases continue to blight the lives of the poor across the world. An estimated 40 million people are living with HIV/AIDS, with 3 million deaths in 2004. Every year there are 350–500 million cases of malaria, with 1 million fatalities: Africa accounts for 90 percent of malarial deaths and African children account for over 80 percent of malaria victims worldwide.Source 9

Water problems affect half of humanity:

Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.
Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.
More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day.
Access to piped water into the household averages about 85% for the wealthiest 20% of the population, compared with 25% for the poorest 20%.
1.8 billion people who have access to a water source within 1 kilometre, but not in their house or yard, consume around 20 litres per day. In the United Kingdom the average person uses more than 50 litres of water a day flushing toilets (where average daily water usage is about 150 liters a day. The highest average water use in the world is in the US, at 600 liters day.)
Some 1.8 million child deaths each year as a result of diarrhoea
The loss of 443 million school days each year from water-related illness.
Close to half of all people in developing countries suffering at any given time from a health problem caused by water and sanitation deficits.
Millions of women spending several hours a day collecting water.
To these human costs can be added the massive economic waste associated with the water and sanitation deficit.… The costs associated with health spending, productivity losses and labour diversions … are greatest in some of the poorest countries. Sub-Saharan Africa loses about 5% of GDP, or some $28.4 billion annually, a figure that exceeds total aid flows and debt relief to the region in 2003.Source 10
Number of children in the world
2.2 billion
Number in poverty
1 billion (every second child)
Shelter, safe water and health
For the 1.9 billion children from the developing world, there are:

640 million without adequate shelter (1 in 3)
400 million with no access to safe water (1 in 5)
270 million with no access to health services (1 in 7)
Children out of education worldwide
121 million
Survival for children
Worldwide,

10.6 million died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5 (same as children population in France, Germany, Greece and Italy)
1.4 million die each year from lack of access to safe drinking water and adequate sanitation
Health of children
Worldwide,

2.2 million children die each year because they are not immunized
15 million children orphaned due to HIV/AIDS (similar to the total children population in Germany or United Kingdom)
Source 11

Rural areas account for three in every four people living on less than US$1 a day and a similar share of the world population suffering from malnutrition. However, urbanization is not synonymous with human progress. Urban slum growth is outpacing urban growth by a wide margin.Source 12

Approximately half the world’s population now live in cities and towns. In 2005, one out of three urban dwellers (approximately 1 billion people) was living in slum conditions.Source 13

In developing countries some 2.5 billion people are forced to rely on biomass—fuelwood, charcoal and animal dung—to meet their energy needs for cooking. In sub-Saharan Africa, over 80 percent of the population depends on traditional biomass for cooking, as do over half of the populations of India and China.Source 14

Indoor air pollution resulting from the use of solid fuels [by poorer segments of society] is a major killer. It claims the lives of 1.5 million people each year, more than half of them below the age of five: that is 4000 deaths a day. To put this number in context, it exceeds total deaths from malaria and rivals the number of deaths from tuberculosis.Source 15

In 2005, the wealthiest 20% of the world accounted for 76.6% of total private consumption. The poorest fifth just 1.5%:



The poorest 10% accounted for just 0.5% and the wealthiest 10% accounted for 59% of all the consumption:

Source 16

1.6 billion people — a quarter of humanity — live without electricity:

Breaking that down further:

Number of people living without electricity
Region Millions without electricity
South Asia 706
Sub-Saharan Africa 547
East Asia 224
Other 101
The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the 41 Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (567 million people) is less than the wealth of the world’s 7 richest people combined.Source 18

World gross domestic product (world population approximately 6.5 billion) in 2006 was $48.2 trillion in 2006.

The world’s wealthiest countries (approximately 1 billion people) accounted for $36.6 trillion dollars (76%).
The world’s billionaires — just 497 people (approximately 0.000008% of the world’s population) — were worth $3.5 trillion (over 7% of world GDP).
Low income countries (2.4 billion people) accounted for just $1.6 trillion of GDP (3.3%)
Middle income countries (3 billion people) made up the rest of GDP at just over $10 trillion (20.7%).Source 19
The world’s low income countries (2.4 billion people) account for just 2.4% of world exportsSource 20

The total wealth of the top 8.3 million people around the world “rose 8.2 percent to $30.8 trillion in 2004, giving them control of nearly a quarter of the world’s financial assets.”

In other words, about 0.13% of the world’s population controlled 25% of the world’s financial assets in 2004.Source 21

For every $1 in aid a developing country receives, over $25 is spent on debt repayment.Source 22

51 percent of the world’s 100 hundred wealthiest bodies are corporations.Source 23

The wealthiest nation on Earth has the widest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation.Source 24

The poorer the country, the more likely it is that debt repayments are being extracted directly from people who neither contracted the loans nor received any of the money.Source 25

In 1960, the 20% of the world’s people in the richest countries had 30 times the income of the poorest 20% — in 1997, 74 times as much.Source 26

An analysis of long-term trends shows the distance between the richest and poorest countries was about:

3 to 1 in 1820
11 to 1 in 1913
35 to 1 in 1950
44 to 1 in 1973
72 to 1 in 1992Source 27
“Approximately 790 million people in the developing world are still chronically undernourished, almost two-thirds of whom reside in Asia and the Pacific.”Source 28

For economic growth and almost all of the other indicators, the last 20 years [of the current form of globalization, from 1980 - 2000] have shown a very clear decline in progress as compared with the previous two decades [1960 - 1980]. For each indicator, countries were divided into five roughly equal groups, according to what level the countries had achieved by the start of the period (1960 or 1980). Among the findings:

Growth: The fall in economic growth rates was most pronounced and across the board for all groups or countries.
Life Expectancy: Progress in life expectancy was also reduced for 4 out of the 5 groups of countries, with the exception of the highest group (life expectancy 69-76 years).
Infant and Child Mortality: Progress in reducing infant mortality was also considerably slower during the period of globalization (1980-1998) than over the previous two decades.
Education and literacy: Progress in education also slowed during the period of globalization.Source 29
A mere 12 percent of the world’s population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World.Source 30

Consider the global priorities in spending in 1998

Global Priority $U.S. Billions
Cosmetics in the United States 8
Ice cream in Europe 11
Perfumes in Europe and the United States 12
Pet foods in Europe and the United States 17
Business entertainment in Japan 35
Cigarettes in Europe 50
Alcoholic drinks in Europe 105
Narcotics drugs in the world 400
Military spending in the world 780
And compare that to what was estimated as additional costs to achieve universal access to basic social services in all developing countries:

Global Priority $U.S. Billions
Basic education for all 6
Water and sanitation for all 9
Reproductive health for all women 12
Basic health and nutrition 13
Source 31

Notes And Sources
Sources:
Shaohua Chen and Martin Ravallion, The developing world is poorer than we thought, but no less successful in the fight against poverty, World Bank, August 2008
For the 95% on $10 a day, see Martin Ravallion, Shaohua Chen and Prem Sangraula, Dollar a day revisited, World Bank, May 2008. They note that 95% of developing country population lived on less than $10 a day. Using 2005 population numbers, this is equivalent to just under 79.7% of world population, and does not include populations living on less than $10 a day from industrialized nations.
This figure is based on purchasing power parity (PPP), which basically suggests that prices of goods in countries tend to equate under floating exchange rates and therefore people would be able to purchase the same quantity of goods in any country for a given sum of money. That is, the notion that a dollar should buy the same amount in all countries. Hence if a poor person in a poor country living on a dollar a day moved to the U.S. with no changes to their income, they would still be living on a dollar a day.

The new poverty line of $1.25 a day was recently announced by the World Bank (in 2008). For many years before that it had been $1 a day. But the $1 a day used then would be $1.45 a day now if just inflation was accounted for.

The new figures from the World Bank therefore confirm concerns that poverty has not been reduced by as much as was hoped, although it certainly has dropped since 1981.

However, it appears that much of the poverty reduction in the last couple of decades almost exclusively comes from China:

China’s poverty rate fell from 85% to 15.9%, or by over 600 million people
China accounts for nearly all the world’s reduction in poverty
Excluding China, poverty fell only by around 10%


The use of the poverty line of $1 a day had long come under criticism for seeming arbitrary and using poor quality and limited data thus risking an underestimate of poverty. The $1.25 a day level is accompanied with some additional explanations and reasoning, including that it is a common level found amongst the poorest countries, and that $2.50 represents a typical poverty level amongst many more developing countries.

The $10 dollar a day figure above is close to poverty levels in the US, so is provided here to give a more global perspective to these numbers, although the World Bank has felt it is not a meaningful number for the poorest because they are unfortunately unlikely to reach that level any time soon.

For further details on this (as well as some additional charts), see Poverty Around The World on this web site. back

2007 Human Development Report (HDR), United Nations Development Program, November 27, 2007, p.25. back
Ibidback
See Today, over 24,000 children died around the world from this web site. (Note that the statistic cited uses children as those under the age of five. If it was say 6, or 7, the numbers would be even higher.)back
See the following:
2007 Human Development Report (HDR), United Nations Development Program, November 27, 2007, p.25. (The report also notes that although India is rising economically, “the bad news is that this has not been translated into accelerated progress in cutting under-nutrition. One-half of all rural children [in India] are underweight for their age—roughly the same proportion as in 1992.”)
Millennium Development Goals Report 2007
back
Millennium Development Goals Report 2007 . The report importantly notes that “As high as this number seems, surveys show that it underestimates the actual number of children who, though enrolled, are not attending school. Moreover, neither enrolment nor attendance figures reflect children who do not attend school regularly. To make matters worse, official data are not usually available from countries in conflict or post-conflict situations. If data from these countries were reflected in global estimates, the enrolment picture would be even less optimistic.”back
The State of the World’s Children, 1999, UNICEFback
State of the World, Issue 287 - Feb 1997, New Internationalistback
2007 Human Development Report (HDR), United Nations Development Program, November 27, 2007, p.25. back
2006 United Nations Human Development Report, pp.6, 7, 35 back
State of the World’s Children, 2005, UNICEFback
2007 Human Development Report (HDR), United Nations Development Program, November 27, 2007, p.25. back
Millennium Development Goals Report 2007 back
Ibid, p.45 back
Ibid, p.45 back
World Development Indicators 2008, World Bank, August 2008 back
Millennium Development Goals Report 2007 , p.44 back
See the following:
World Bank Key Development Data & Statistics, World Bank, accessed March 3, 2008
Luisa Kroll and Allison Fass, The World’s Richest People, Forbes, March 3, 2007
World Bank’s list of Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (41 countries), accessed March 3, 2008
back
See the following:
World Bank Key Development Data & Statistics, World Bank, accessed March 3, 2008
Luisa Kroll and Allison Fass, The World’s Richest People, Forbes, March 3, 2007
back
Trade Data, World Bank Data & Statistics, accessed March 3, 2008 back
Eileen Alt Powell, Some 600,000 join millionaire ranks in 2004, Associate Press, June 9, 2005 back
Based on World Bank data (accessed March 3, 2008) as follows:
Total debts of the developing world in 2006: $2.7 trillion
Total official development assistance in 2006: $106 billion
back
See the following:
Holding Transnationals Accountable, IPS, August 11, 1998
Top 200: The Rise of Corporate Global Power, by Sarah Anderson and John Cavanagh, Institute for Policy Studies, November 2000
back
Log cabin to White House? Not any more, The Observer, April 28, 2002back
Debt - The facts, Issue 312 - May 1999, New Internationalistback
1999 Human Development Report, United Nations Development Programmeback
Ibidback
World Resources Institute Pilot Analysis of Global Ecosystems, February 2001, (in the Food Feed and Fiber section). Note, that despite the food production rate being better than population growth rate, there is still so much hunger around the world.back
The Scorecard on Globalization 1980-2000: Twenty Years of Diminished Progress, by Mark Weisbrot, Dean Baker, Egor Kraev and Judy Chen, Center for Economic Policy and Research, August 2001.back
Maude Barlow, Water as Commodity - The Wrong Prescription, The Institute for Food and Development Policy, Backgrounder, Summer 2001, Vol. 7, No. 3back
Consumerism, Volunteer Now! (undated) back
Where Next?
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United Nations World Summit 2005
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Anup Shah, Poverty Facts and Stats, Global Issues, Updated: March 28, 2010

“When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.” — Dom Helda Camara
© Copyright 1998–2010

[dskira]

No offence, but are you sure you are on the right thread.
Very interresting indeed. Thanks.
Check the general topics, your input can be very valuable. we surely need people like you.
Daniel

[brian eiland]

Too bad...looks like this subject thread has gotten hi-jacked with unrelated STUFF :(

[Timothy]

My apologies. I am not trying to high jack this thread .My post was perhaps inappropriate and certainly off topic It was a knee jerk reaction. As I have for some time now been trying to develop a balanced rig for my own boat I am very interested in the subject of this thread and would not want to hinder the discussion.

[AdvShipbuilding]

Do you have a prototype or a testing model?
Did you try a prototype by all sort of wind and sea?
I am sure you didn't state the above without serious study because is quite a serious statement which require some kind of back up.
Can we hear?
Daniel

I just finished my thesis on wingsails, windtunnel testing one versus a classic sail and checking performance . Coming across this formum in the search of nasa research i wanted to put a little info here. I'm graduating as naval engineer within a month and last year won the naval engeneering price with my new wingsail prototype, so as thesis I went testing...

Below a model out of my study.

When both sails have the same camber (5%) like normally the following is a fact: Wingsails are better at low angles. And classic sails at higher angles.
The best sail is actually a combination. Within that study for the university I developed a wingsail with adjustable camber. This sail can adapt itself camber by a system so you always have optimal performance.
This kind of adjustable camber wingsails are the future.


For the attachment: profielzeil is dutch for wingsail. Below are the angles horizontaly. Vertical you have the windforce generated at same condition of wind at 1.1m/s. The scale is in gram as the forces were measured realtime by a electronic balance. For those who want to scale the information. The sail surface was in all cases 0.438m².

[brian eiland]

...The best sail is actually a combination. Within that study for the university I developed a wingsail with adjustable camber. This sail can adapt itself camber by a system so you always have optimal performance.
This kind of adjustable camber wingsails are the future....

How about a reversible camber wing sail?..did you play with this idea? ...where the camber on a Maltese type rig could be reversed without 'tacking' the rig' ??

[AdvShipbuilding]

How about a reversible camber wing sail?..did you play with this idea? ...where the camber on a Maltese type rig could be reversed without 'tacking' the rig' ??

The wingsail I made for the study can camber in both ways (Starboard to port). I used Sail tissue on both sides of the mast. It is formed in naca by the battons. With a pully system within, the desired camber can be done to the desired side.
For a full size wingsail I've also drawn a rigging system so it could be operated like a normal sail for pleasure yachts.
The only thing here is that because of it's complexity the comany will need to test the system first on its user friendlyness and it may need modifications during testing.
I'm not familiar with the maltese type rig so I'm going to look it up. I hope the above explaination helps.

[AdvShipbuilding]

People in the stone age lived lived better and longer than the majority of people today. It was't until we ate the forbidden fruit and adopted agriculture that rich people became possible. Its been all down hill for everybody else since then.

If there were no rich, there were no company's, no company's mean no workers; So in other words no jobs for the workers, no job = no income,
It is often forgotten that the more profit, the higher the bonuses and the more employees a company employes. Never forget that being poor is mostely due to no job. Everyone who works, earnes. The more you work , the more you earn.. simple mathematics. For the third world country's when they use support for war or it is lost in governmental treasuries its not our own fault. Company's like Suez have tried alot in Africa. But the problem is that working was simply not as easy as doing nothing. And there is your development problem. How do you help an entire continent of ppl who mostly want it easy; no work... It doesn't work that way...

[ancient kayaker]

With a fully-battened sail on a rotating mast, the batten leading edges could be attached to the mast. This would allow the use of mast rotation to modify the batten shape, and perhaps optimize the profile and/or sail twist.

Has anyone experimented with this idea? The biggest problem might be establishing batten stiffness: this would likely be optimized for light winds where efficiency would be most desirable.

Like a rigid wing, there is likely no way to reef such a sail.

[AdvShipbuilding]

With a fully-battened sail on a rotating mast, the batten leading edges could be attached to the mast. This would allow the use of mast rotation to modify the batten shape, and perhaps optimize the profile and/or sail twist.

Has anyone experimented with this idea? The biggest problem might be establishing batten stiffness: this would likely be optimized for light winds where efficiency would be most desirable.

Like a rigid wing, there is likely no way to reef such a sail.

Your idea is good we also went that way..
In my wingsail the wing is twisted partly by being fixed to the mast. It also can be riged by use of a much larger chariot. The sail is fixed in X to the chariot which is fully around the mast. By means of a rail the round chariot can move up and down but not around the mast which allows the sail to tense when it is puched by the wind around the mast. The effect received is exact with your idea. The problem I had within the study is that with the changing of windpower the battons don't keep a good angle. The system needs a secundary pully system to finetune. We drew the chariot system to allow reefing but we suspect it will need some testing and adjustments before it is fully operational. My father wants to build a reefable wingsail for his 45 foot catamaran so even after my thesis ended (few weeks ago), we'll keep working on building a usable good system.

[ancient kayaker]

if the basic concept works, perhaps the next step would be to use inflatable battens so their stiffness can be adjusted to suit wind pressue.

[AdvShipbuilding]

if the basic concept works, perhaps the next step would be to use inflatable battens so their stiffness can be adjusted to suit wind pressue.

It is possible but maybe not very reliable in every day use. It would offer opportunities to finetune but inflating would require every batten to have its own air supply. In that case too many hoses would have to go in the system. In a fixed version it is possible but leakage and damage by wear and storm would be a problem in sails. Best case use kevlar for the tubes to minimize. Feefing would be made very difficult. I think too many problems in usage would make it not applicable in every day yachting. Maybe in the racing tests can be made.

[brian eiland]

Sorry I don't have time to elaborate at this time, but one thing I had been thinking was how to marry the idea of a reversable rigid 'camberspar' in place of the yards of the square rig :idea:

Camber Spar
http://www.freedomyachts.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8583

[ancient kayaker]

Brian, I'm not sure I fully understood that article. It seems to be describing the use of a wishbone sprit on the jib. I tried a double wishbone sprit on a leg-o-mutton sail but it was clumsy and was getting too elaborate so I gave up.

I have been trying to conceptualise a reversible Dynarig-type spar to eliminate backwinding when changing tack but haven't been able to come up with anything that would work. One problem is, the sail needs to move to the other side of the mast without rotating the mast 180 deg. About the only thing that would allow that would be an A-mast, but that would be virtually impossible to rotate.

[brian eiland]

Hi Terry (Ancient Kayaker),
I can see from your contributions to this discussion and contributions to this other subject thread, ‘Square Rig Variation’ (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/square-rig-variation-30031.html), that you have a great interest in this subject matter.

I do as well, but unfortunately at the moment I’m working on the opposite end of vessels…a propulsion drive leg design rather than the sailing rig ;)

I knew this fellow Dave Bierig, a sailmaker in PA, who developed this Camberspar idea. It was right about the same time that Freedom boats were introducing their wishbone booms on their freestanding mast, and here was a concept that required only a half of a wishbone boom. It was contained in a pocket built into the sail as opposed to double arms ‘around’ (external) the sail.

I’ve often thought of other applications where this camberspar idea might be utilized, including the mizzen sail and the inner foresail on my mast-aft concept (http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/65undersail.html). Perhaps it was this posting of yours #20;
…but I’m also thinking of having a double skin forming a full aerofoil profile which would be symmetrical on either tack and self-tacking. In my earlier adaptation of your concept I planned a one-piece sail with pockets for each yard instead of separate sail panels.
..that prompted me to think of possibilities of using the Camberspar concept on a Dynarig design. I have a bunch of ‘doodles’ on various napkins and pieces of paper, but I’ve never gone through a development process.

My basic thought was a round freestanding mast that has external tracks down either side 180 degrees apart. These tracks would allow the a ball-ended ‘camberspar yard’ to ride up and down the mast, and these camberspar yards (half yards really) would be able to rotate over 180 degrees in the horizontal from one camber of sail to the opposite camber. This rotation of the camberspar yard (better described as a ‘flop’ from one camber to the opposite) would occur within a pocket built into the sail panel. This sail panel pocket would be horizontal on its bottom edge such that the camberspar yard would rest in it at full camber when on either tack. The sail panel’s pocket would be exaggerated in dimension at its outer edge in order to allow the tip of the camberspar yard to flop over on the opposite tack (camber). Perhaps some sort of ‘leech line’ internal to the sail would be needed to facilitate the ‘flopping’ of the camberspar yards. Naturally you would want both ‘halfs’ of any one camberspar yard to rotate onto the new tack in unison, or you might end up with an ‘S’ shaped sail aerofoil rather than a full camber foil shaped sail.

That nice round mast might have two cambered panels bonded on either side, that project out at each end to form a small slot that allows the camberspar yard and its sail to exit the mast’s slot. These two panels would act to make the mast appear as an elliptical aerodynamic shape at the center of the cambered sail.

I know this is an incomplete thought process, but it was my idea for using the camberspar concept as a yard for the square sail ‘dynarig’ configuration. It harkens to your call for a “one piece sail with pockets for each yard instead of separate sail panels”, and could “form a full aerofoil profile on either tack” while requiring very little mast rotation.

(I'll try to add a sketch in the next few days when I get a chance)

[ancient kayaker]

I was thinking of the same thing, more or less, but rejected the idea as being too complex and likely to cause excessive sail wear. I believe the essential thing about the Dynarig is the vertical tension that the spars impose on the sails to maintain them in a smooth curve. To create that tension there would have to be an outhaul or somesuch to move the spar at the end of its travel after each change of tack. Sounds like a lot of work. Also there would be continuous tension at the edges of the sail which would be applied at the ends of the spar(s), leading to a tendency for them to jam. I have to admit that I don't like the idea of the camberspar itself for the same reason.

re-reading my own earlier post, it seems what I was really thinking about was a wingsail.

[brian eiland]

...To create that tension there would have to be an outhaul or somesuch to move the spar at the end of its travel after each change of tack.
I don't know that I follow you here? The sail is tensioned on the camberspar just like a full batten in a mainsail. That batten can flop from one tack to the other without any readjustmet of the tension. The camberspar can as well.

I have to admit that I don't like the idea of the camberspar itself for the same reason.
Have you utilized a camberspar jib before? I installed one on one of our Firefly trimarans (http://www.runningtideyachts.com/trimaran/) for a gentleman who sailed singlehanded all of the time, and tacked a lot out of his creek on the Chesapeake Bay. He loved it.

[ancient kayaker]

I don't think I understand how it works: I have not been able to find a picture.