How to run E-85 biofuel in my outboard?

[codyjsmith]

Hi im looking for someone who can tell me what changes I need to make to be able to run the new E-85 biofuel in my outboard motor. I have an 1982 115hp johnson with 1 3/16" carbs, the stock jets are 54, 37, 34. I know, or if I have to enlarge the jets (orficeses), how much biger do I need to go and which ones do I need to enlarge. I have been around the block with this question and no one has yet to answer it for me. Hafe of the machanics didn't even know what E-85 fuel was so let me explain it for those who still do not know, it is 85% ethonal and 15% gas. Simulor to what they use to call gasohal. And yes you can buy it at your local gas pump. It is 105 octane and is cheaper than regular. If any one can answer this I think you so much.



Cody

[charmc]

While 10% ethanol, E10, is OK in modern outboards, generally those built in the last 10 years, E85 is currently not recommended at all. Apart from carb changes, you'd need to change most seals and all non-metallic fuel lines/hoses. Ethanol is a solvent with properties different from those of gasoline. It will destroy most of your existing rubber & plastic seals, hoses, etc, and it will dissolve crud in your existing tank, lines, etc, transferring it to the inside of the engine. If your boat has a fiberglass fuel tank, forget any ethanol blend at all, it will dissolve the resin and leak fuel into your bilge. Another consideration is water in the fuel tank. Water is absorbed easily by E85, leading to corrosion/rust and performance problems, and possible engine damage. Overall, I'd stay away from it until someone with genuine expertise publishes guidlines for conversion. Besides, the reason you need to rejet is because E85 has much lower energy content, so you'll use 20-30% more fuel. Not really accomplishing much, IMHO.

Here are some links with more details:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/107711/boating_tips_is_ethanol_in_your_outboard.html

http://www.theoutboardwizard.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html

[charmc]

The reason marine mechanics haven't heard of E85 is because it's not approved by any boat industry association or standard-setting body for recreational boating use, for all the reasons listed in my earlier post.

[marshmat]

Your 1982 motor is probably not a good candidate for high-grade ethanol. As charmc says, most of your motor's soft bits are probably not of high enough quality to handle this fuel. Many common biofuels (ethanol, most biodiesels) are good solvents and much cleaner than conventional fuel, and will do a nice job transporting all the crud in your fuel system to the fuel filter element. There are no internal modifications but the fuel injectors or carbs do need to be calibrated appropriately.
Cars that can run on E85 have soft parts (hoses, gaskets etc) made of higher quality materials, and computer controls to allow the engine to switch seamlessly between different fuel blends. I have never seen or heard of consumption going up 30%, but a 15% increase (by volume) is not uncommon.
In short, 10% should be fine and up to 20% might work, but don't go any higher unless the engine manufacturer recommends the higher grades.

[Frosty]

If you can get a gallon, put it in and try it. You may have slow running problems and this would be a problem for the gear selection --but try it, let us know.

[stonebreaker]

It will cost you about 10%, power-wise. In an engine optimized for alcohol, you can make quite a bit more power because the high octane allows you to run 13:1 compression or even higher, but because of ethanol's lower energy content, as mentioned above, it will cost you both power and mileage over straight gas in a converted gasoline engine.

Gasoline burns at 14:1 air/fuel ratio, and methanol burns at 9:1. I don't know what ratio ethanol burns off the top of my head, but I'd guess it's somewhere in between - maybe 11 or 12 to 1.

[RAWRF]

You would be surprised at what those old Johnsons will run on without any damage, short or long term. I have an old 1985 Sea Horse and one time I ran out of gas while going up the river because a bear climbed into the boat and tore open a couple cans, so I stopped at this old cabin and drained the gas out of a 3 wheeler with 3 flat tires that probably hadn't been running in 5 years or more, and in an old shed with the roof caving in I found an unopened can of methanol and a quart of motor oil. I used this as my premix. The whole mixture was the color and consistency of milk. The engine sputtered a bit and wasn't as powerful but got me where I was going, and I didn't bother making any kind of carb adjustments whatsoever. I still have that engine and have never done anything to it besides regular maintenance.

[charmc]

RAWRF,

Great work making emergency fuel, and I'm glad to hear the bear got your fuel and not you! 'Course, the smell probably drove him/her away.

I'm guessing that what you made was probably a 5, 10, or maybe 15% methanol blend with gasoline, similar to the EPA-mandated methanol blends replacing MTBE blends in high population density regions, and similar to E10 ethanol blend approved for most of today's outboards, and you used it once.

E85, 85% ethanol, to be used on a regular basis, is a whole different animal. Don't misunderstand my first post; I'm not against it, just against the stupid media hype that misinforms too many people, making them think it's just a question of getting a supply of the fuel. Phased in with proper precautions and preparation, E85 can be one option, out of several, for reducing reliance on imported oil, which seems far too often to be under the control of unstable or nasty governments.

[gonzo]

Many years ago when I was working in Brazil, I got a lot of experience with gasohol and straigh ethanol. It destroys all rubber parts (diafragms, hoses, etc.) and also corrodes the carburator bowls. They changed the rubber compounds to neoprene or something like that and carburators are either cast iron or plated inside. The HP is lower unless it is turbo or super charged in which case the pressure can be higher. Cold starts are a bit more difficult too.

[mrmoto58]

Hi I also had a run in with gasohol my fishing partner used my boat and it had a 98 .75 merc on it and he used gasohol in it not noing .he had to bay to get the carbs cleaned and re tuned .Ted

[redtech]

listen just about everyones right don't use it on the outboards or boats all together yet. to add to the argument ethanal also absorbs water (just something else we need in the fuel tank) and reduces the lubricating value of you fuel oil mix. engine manufactors say only 10% max ethanol theres a reson way and lets not forget about fungus that can grow when left to long in the tank
does anyone remember soy diesel when it first came out for sailboats???
just saying give it time don't jump one the wagon yet it may not float.

[openboater]

www.duckworksmagazine.com had a geat write up last month by their resident expert 'Max' on using ethanol in old engines. He used some pretty hi concentrates as I recall with no detrement to the engines.

[redtech]

openboater thank you for the article this is the first modern test i've seen just been going off of history e-85 was gasahol from the 50's and 60's
lets just keep in mind sythetic oils, modern rubbers, hot sparks, and good compression all these things were not around when e-85 first come out and went bust.
willing to try something new but playing safe for now
technology may have fixed this one

[ted655]

I just read the Tohatsu manual. If any type of alcohol mix fuel is used, the warrenty is void. Good enough for me, I get the point.

[dragonjbynight]

Depending on composition and source, E85 has an octane rating of 100 - 105[4] compared to regular gasoline's typical rating of 87 - 93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. Since the reciprocating mass of the engine increases in proportion to the displacement of the engine E-85 has a higher potential efficiency for an engine of equal power. One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E-85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E-85. Use of E-85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Using E-85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. E-85, 85% Ethanol by volume, also has a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) than gasoline leading to a reduction in power output in a gasoline engine. E85 consumes more fuel in flex fuel type vehicles because of its lower stoichiometric fuel ratio and lower heating value. So in order to save money at the pump with a flex fuel vehicle the price of E85 must be much lower than gasoline. Currently E85 is about 5-10% less expensive in most areas.[5] More than 20 fueling stations across the Midwest are selling E85 25%-40% cheaper than gasoline.[6] E85 also gets less MPG, at least in flex fuel vehicles. In one test, a Chevy Tahoe flex-fuel vehicle averaged 18 MPG for gasoline, and 13 MPG for E85, or 28% fewer MPG than gasoline. In that test, the cost of gas averaged $3.42, while the cost for E85 averaged $3.09, or 90% the cost of gasoline.[7]

Wikipedia definition as the question had also crossed my mind, however I would follow the previous reccomendations against using it. The extra savings would be eaten up by the greater consumption. Most study's done on E85, mention it is not reccomended for any motor not specifically designed for it.

[dragonjbynight]

Ted, wouldn't that be an issue with any gasoline, as most of the pumps now contain at least a 10% mixture?

[Jimbo1490]

Ethanol's higher (R+M/2) octane rating is basically a wash since it mostly comes from increased 'research' (RON) octane rather than 'motor" (MON) octane rating, indicating poor octane 'sensitivity'. Most users (me included) have not noticed any improvement in anti-knock performance over 93 octane premium (W/O ethanol) vs ethanol blends. Ethanol @ 10% will typically raise the octane of the gasoline to which it is added by 2 to 3 numbers ((R+M)/2) since it has a RON of about 129. Note that it has a MON of only 102.

With it's lower energy density, you do have to burn more to do the same work, as already noted. But owing to its richer stoichiometry, you can make more power by cramming more of it into the engine, which more than overcomes the lower energy density, albeit at the price of very high BSFC numbers. This is how/why you make more power with ethanol, NOT because of increased octane numbers allowing higher compression ratios.

It's the same with nitromethane but taken to an extreme, because it already carries most of the oxygen it needs for combustion. Consequently its stoichiometry is ridiculously rich like around 2:1, so you get to cram LOADS of it through the engine, if you can avoid the whole 'spontaneous disassembly' issue :D

There are still plenty of good reasons to use ethanol as a motor fuel, but it is quite a different animal than gasoline. Corn-based ethanol will probably never take off in a big way since it is dependent on the caprice of the trading price of two different commodities; corn and crude oil. Crude oil has to be high and corn low for it to make sense to turn corn into ethanol. An unfavorable change in either market and the refiner is screwed, owning great tanks full of ethanol nobody wants.

Jimbo

[Raftman1979]

Don't use Al Gore fuel in anything that's not specifically designed for it. E-85 is only cheaper because it's heavily subsidized by our tax money. It's junk fuel and shouldn't be used in any older engines or fuel systems.
If you're a tree hugger and want to use bio-fuels, I'd suggest getting a diesel outboard and running a biodiesel mixture. (I wouldn't use 100% bio just yet, because there are no federal standards for biodiesel in effect yet.)

But don't plan on having that thing start up in cold weather. Biodiesel has been known to turn to gel below 40 degrees, but who takes their boat out when it's that cold? Just run the engine out of fuel and return to port under electric power before you put it away for the winter.

[powerabout]

Doesnt it take 4 gallons of diesel to make and deliver one gallon of bio ethanol?

There is nothing less polluting than piping crude oil ashore or shipping and then turning it to gas/diesel and delivering it to the gas station for powering vehicles
If ethanol came out of the ground under pressure..i'd vote for 100% tomorrow

[powerabout]

Can you run an 82 car on E85 in the US?

OMC did make some alcohol kits for various race motors as the Europeans were keen.
I know it included new floats for the carbs as they were not alcohol resistant and all the other usual stuff, all fuel lines, puddle drain hoses, fuel pumps etc.
I remember a few methanol powered race merc V6's ( 80's) and they just removed all the jets and let the fuel run through the threaded holes.

I did read the artcle in Racecar Engineering about the CART cars now running 100 bio something and one interesting item was they had to increase the radiator area something like 30% to keep them cool and ofcourse they use lots more for them same output?

[Frosty]

When I go the gas station on my little 110 2 stroke suzuki I pull up to the pump with less motorcycles. I cant read Thai so i dont know what Im putting in it , but if other bikes are using it then its not deisel.

It has become apparant that I have been using E85 for years --confused by the difference in colour only, the 91 is red and the E85 is clear . I can honestly say that I have noticed no difference in either as I am not aware of what fuel I put in last.

[pistnbroke]

I did not read all of the posts ..we only have 10% ethanol here in Australia and the rule is dont use it on a boat as it absorbs water ,,,,,many have had problems ...

[powerabout]

Frosty

I didnt think there was any bio in Asia?
[edit] ok E10 in Thailand..anywhere else?

The colours are different in all countries

Powerabout

[powerabout]

I did not read all of the posts ..we only have 10% ethanol here in Australia and the rule is dont use it on a boat as it absorbs water ,,,,,many have had problems ...
Dont you only have it big in the states where the producers donated the most money to the governments in power....NSW???

[pistnbroke]

sorry dont understand that comment ..

[powerabout]

I think the only state with current laws to mandate E 10 are NSW where the company that makes it was the largest doner to the labour party in 2008
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/labor-delivers-for-big-donors/2008/02/01/1201801034860.html

The federal gov doesn't think it works...
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/RP/2007-08/08RP18.pdf

[Frosty]

Frosty

I didnt think there was any bio in Asia?
[edit] ok E10 in Thailand..anywhere else?

The colours are different in all countries

Powerabout

Well we got E85 --91 --96 and biodiesel. The biodiesel really is good stuff and I specifically look for it, the motor runs much better, more power and consiqently better economy,--say 20% better!!!

[marshmat]

Doesnt it take 4 gallons of diesel to make and deliver one gallon of bio ethanol?
The first-generation corn-based ethanol plants ended up with a net energy in/energy out ratio of roughly 0.7 to 1.3 or so- ie, roughly a gallon of fuel being burned to power tractors, tankers, stills, etc. for every gallon of useable fuel out. These are the ones that stirred up the whole "net negative energy" controversy, especially since the corn farmers had contributed significantly to certain politicians who ended up being big proponents of corn ethanol. Naturally, there were a wide range of values quoted, the producers claiming impossibly net positive numbers, and many of their detractors coming up with figures like the "4 gallons in for 1 out".

Some of the current biodiesel plants, along with a few of the cellulosic ethanol processes that are now at the pilot plant stage, are closer to 0.1-0.3 units of energy in for every unit of energy out. There is a lot of talk right now of algae-based biodiesel/ethanol plants that would run on a combination of solar power and coal fired power plant exhaust, and in theory could be an order of magnitude better than cellulosic. But so far, just small-scale demo plants.

Well we got E85 --91 --96 and biodiesel. The biodiesel really is good stuff and I specifically look for it, the motor runs much better, more power and consiqently better economy,--say 20% better!!!
Not to mention your exhaust smells like a chip truck instead of like diesel smoke ;)
Several bus fleets around here tried to run on high-blend biodiesel a few years ago. I heard a lot of good reports in summer, but they never did seem to get the fuel to stay sufficiently liquid in the Canadian winter. That's an engineering chemistry problem that could probably be solved with modifications to the process, but we don't really have any big producers who can invest the money to figure out how to control the low-temperature chemistry of the biodiesel. The cold weather problem, coupled with the relative lack of suppliers and the need to set up a gas station in your side yard (complete with spill containment and regulatory approval) seems to be hampering biodiesel adoption here.

I've heard from a few folks who run it in their 1980s VW/Toyotas to have a good supply of spare fuel filter elements when you convert to biodiesel- they've reported that the stuff acts like a fuel system cleaner, removing all the crud that had built up in the lines and pumps. Thus, for the first couple of months on biodiesel, the fuel filter would clog every few weeks.

I think the only state with current laws to mandate E 10 are NSW where the company that makes it was the largest doner to the labour party in 2008
Ontario mandates an average of at least 5% ethanol in gasoline (O.reg.535/05). In practice, the oil companies are generally giving us up to 10% in the 87-octane fuel, with none in the hi-test. The main rationale is that it's an oxygenating and knock-reducing additive, thus it promotes cleaner combustion and allows the use of a slightly broader range of hydrocarbon fractions that would otherwise pose a knock problem. It's also supposed to slightly reduce our foreign oil dependence (although not by much) and it acts as a gas line antifreeze in winter. We have only a handful of places where you can get blends higher than E10, though.

[powerabout]

Matt
Thanks for the info.
What do you think will happen as the bio fuel takes a bigger slice of the market and then the country has a bad farming season, no food or no fuel?
Powerabout

[Frosty]

It only smells like a chip shop if its been previously used to fry chips in.

Those are the guys that go round Mcdonalds etc,-- THAT oil will smell of the food thats been cooked.

To answer the original question yes you can use it. Do you think the gas station would /could sell something that could potentially damage your engine?

Anyway you have to dump some 2 stroke oil in it.

Bio deisel--at the gas station,- No it does'nt crud up your filters, its perfectly clean fuel made for the use of normal automobiles without any modifications.

The west is lagging way behind the east.

[marshmat]

I think we're almost ready to move to the stage where we recognize that not only is using food to make fuel rather dumb, but it's also not nearly as efficient as using agricultural waste or algae to do the same thing. Once the bugs are worked out of the next-generation ethanol processes, I suspect there won't be much controversy left to argue over.

Frosty- my '94 Johnson 30 calls for "67 octane or better" fuel (do they even make it that crappy?) although it does caution that the fuel lines and pump are not compatible with ethanol blends over 10%. Most engines seem to share the 10% limit. It is my understanding that the main changes in the "flex fuel" engines from Chrysler, GM & friends are alcohol-proof gas lines and gaskets, and some additional ECU code to allow it to adjust the combustion stoichiometry appropriately when using high-ethanol blends.

[Frosty]

No Ive never heard of 67, what is that parrafin?

I think it may mean 67 or better. You can always use better not worse.

Mercury mod VP engines used 110 octane, the racing guys had to go to the airport to buy it. 25 years ago. Dakotas ran of it with Pratt and whitney 24cylinder engines. I used to steal it for my Jag.

I was reading that there is a water plant that is proliferous and needs little care but is not edable and makes better synthetic fuels.

By the way in Thailand LPG for vehicle gas stations are common along with a new one called NGV,--I dont know what this is but there is a lot of new gas stations being built. LPG is what 99% of the taxis use.

[pistnbroke]

Can some of you not read .....While 10% ethanol, E10, is OK in modern outboards, generally those built in the last 10 years, E85 is currently not recommended at all. Apart from carb changes, you'd need to change most seals and all non-metallic fuel lines/hoses. Ethanol is a solvent with properties different from those of gasoline. It will destroy most of your existing rubber & plastic seals, hoses, etc, and it will dissolve crud in your existing tank, lines, etc, transferring it to the inside of the engine. If your boat has a fiberglass fuel tank, forget any ethanol blend at all, it will dissolve the resin and leak fuel into your bilge. Another consideration is water in the fuel tank. Water is absorbed easily by E85, leading to corrosion/rust and performance problems, and possible engine damage. Overall, I'd stay away from it until someone with genuine expertise publishes guidlines for conversion. Besides, the reason you need to rejet is because E85 has much lower energy content, so you'll use 20-30% more fuel. Not really accomplishing much, IMHO.

Here are some links with more details:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/107711/boating_tips_is_ethanol_in_your_outboard.html

http://www.theoutboardwizard.com/boat_ethanol_danger_precaution.html

[Frosty]

Thats what pure ethanol will do E85=85% petrol and 15% ethanol is not considered enough to do the damage you are talking about. IMHO

However running out of fuel and needing 1 or 2 tank fulls for the day wont hurt-- IMHO. But if you want to change and run on the stuff constantly then some changes should be made for reliability for going out on water. You are mixing with oil as well which in Thailand gas stations they advise no modifications necessary for 2 strokes, as the oil kinda takes the bite out of it.

A vehicle? stick the stuff in and see, if it stops who cares.

[powerabout]

I think the cars get away with e85 re the water issue as cars dont have fuel tanks that vent to the atmosphere ( not since the 70's anyway)
and fuel injected ones almost all re circulate as in have a return line so it gets filterd a lot.
Boats dont as the USCG rules will not allow petrol return lines so when it lays in your tank for a few months betwen uses...it could be messy.
Just leave a bowl of acetone un covered and here in Singapore it will pull the moisture out of the air in minutes and you have water in it.
Never noticed that when I lived in Melbourne ( oz)
Frosty
How about a test of your local stuff, put some in a glass and see what happens after a while?

If E10 is 10% ethanol how come E 85 means 15%?

[Frosty]

[QUOTE=powerabout;
How about a test of your local stuff, put some in a glass and see what happens after a while?

If E10 is 10% ethanol how come E 85 means 15%? [/QUOTE]

??? if I put some in a bottle it will stay there if I put some in a glass it will evaporate??

Ive always wondered about that E 85 here seems to be the other way round, does'nt surprise me.

Im always spilling the stuff washing carbs etc messing with motorbikes, and I don't notice any difference. It was months before I mentioned it to my mates that 91 was no longer red, they said "no you've got E85".

[marshmat]

E85 here is 85% ethanol, 15% conventional gasoline. When, that is, you can find it. It's still pretty rare. In Canadian/US terminology, 15% ethanol would be E15.

Pure ethanol would have an R+M/2 octane rating of 98, ie. better than any standard gasoline in Canada. But its energy content per unit mass is substantially lower (26.95 MJ/kg for ethanol versus 43 MJ/kg for gasoline), and it needs a lower fuel/air ratio (9.0 instead of 14.6). So in addition to alcohol-proof fuel lines, pumps and gaskets, an E85-capable engine has to be able to adjust the fuel/air ratio to compensate for the different fuel.

Keep in mind that the stuff is essentially non-food-safe moonshine. You don't see a Scotch going bad after several years in the bottle. Ethanol's pretty stable. But if it sits still for a long time, it can absorb water, and can separate out from the petroleum-based gasoline. If your E10-capable engine suddenly gets a shot of water-saturated, separated ethanol from the bottom of a tank that's been sitting a while, it will not be happy.

[powerabout]

Matt
Thanks for the great info.
Do you think ( like Gale Banks ) that if we geared up for 100% we could make better use of it?
Re smaller but turbo / supercharged engines?

If your Research+Motor/2 is 98 with ethanol what is the best you have now at the pump with that average?

Powerabout

[marshmat]

If you are willing to pay a dollar-plus a litre, you can get gasoline at R+M/2 = 94 here, but almost everyone runs 87-octane with 10% or less ethanol. I have yet to actually see a station selling E85 but I have heard that there is one in Ottawa.

[Frosty]

I might have got this wrong, I shall say no more, It may well be that E85 here is 85% ethanol in which case my claim that I use either without noticing any difference is even more astounding.

Cripes Ive been using E85 in my 1400 suzuki motorbike!!!! cripes. I dint notice anything.

[rasorinc]

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[powerabout]

Frosty

Thats amazing and nothing has melted yet like fuel lines OR
someone gets a bigger tax break selling 85 over 10....so its std petrol without dye........after all its Asia

[FAST FRED]

With it's lower energy density, you do have to burn more to do the same work,

THIS! is why most states demand the use of this crap.

10% poorer gas mileage is 10% higher tax take.

FF

[Frosty]

I picked up a tank off a motorcycle 2 days ago, It was leaking from the disconnected fuel pipe.

Some E85 touched my skin on my beer belly, I didnt think much of it and just pulled the shirt away from the skin and carried on like you do.

I have a burn mark that you would not believe was from E85. If I told you I leaned on a red hot soldering iron that would look more like it.

It is through the skin and is a 2nd degree burn. I cant believe it myself.

[Boston]

actually the logic is that it produces less CO2 although its one of those legislative gaffs that had they bothered to do the math they would have found that all it really doesn't do what was intended

and it costs money that might go towards more effective measures

[Frosty]

Your sympathy and understanding for my injury is overwhelming, thanks guys.

Yeah its kinda Ok ,--its getting better and not worse,-- thats the main thing.

Gasohol E85--- 95 octane here is 36 baht,-- regular 91 is 42 baht.

30 baht to a US dollar.

[Boston]

something tells me E85 and rum don't mix or did you change your shirt since that last romp in the bar. Might have been a reaction to something you spilled you know

[Frosty]

Na --it stung when the fuel touched the skin. Ive been stung by fuel before on even more sensitive areas than that but its never made a hole in me.

Try some --dab a bit on your belly, Ide be interested to know what is does to you.

Or dab a bit on the dogs bollocks.

[Boston]

I wouldn't do that to the dog
you should know better than that
where's W Bad maybe we can get him to try it
in a proper study there's always someone taking a placebo, IE taking the fake stuff, I'll do that one.

[FF26]

this is out of norm for here. I have a dodge spirit 94 and has a 6cyl. it too runs on both, gas and E85. I now on gas i get about 32mpg with E85 i'll be lucky to get 20gpm Hwy.. so you can see the increase in fuel. Untill they get this and the desolving of rubber hoses etc.. don't use it. stay with gas or go to diesle

[marshmat]

I wouldn't mind the reduced mileage (due to lower energy content per litre) if the price were noticeably lower.

But 89 octane E10 blends are going for $1.30 a litre this week, while the moonshine-free fuel (typically 94 octane or so) is something like $1.40 to $1.45. The difference is only worth it for high-compression engines that'll knock like crazy on the cheaper stuff.

Also worth noting- I tried running a tank of last September's E10 in my Johnson two-stroke this afternoon. The thing's been full of fogging oil all winter and the gas had only a shot of the cheap generic brand stabilizer. Started with less than 2 seconds of cranking, ran fine all evening through the whole throttle range. Those of you who keep saying "we have ethanol problems", well, your gas companies must be way behind ours in technical competence (or cheapness) regarding additive packages.

[powerabout]

but you did add a fuel stabilizer
if your outboard is an old model then the ethanol will destroy all the components not designed for it no matter what you add to it.