motorsailers past and present

[kharee]

What is the forum's opinion of the Atkin's motorsailer designs compared to more modern designs in general? In particular the Hartley & Brookes Tahitian designs. I'm considering a small motorsailer with emphasis on actually motorsailing or motoring if necessary. Sailing for the joy of winging it down wind in a heavy breeze. Pilothouse of course for live-aboard. Thanks Kharee

[FAST FRED]

Get Thee to a BOAT SHOW!!

All of the older classic boats work just fine , the hassle is today folks want ROOM ROOM ROOM!

If you can live with the "classic " interior , fine.

But it would be worth the ticket and drive to see what can be done today , in terms of space utilization etc.

Engines are far lighter and burn considerably less fuel , and todays plastic boats have no heavy frames to eat interior volume.

FF

[kharee]

Hello Fast Fred.Thanks for your reply. I thought the layout might be tight, but I only need room for two. Just looking at the lines shows a very sleek hull. The Atkins boats really seem to be "in" the water. Less is probably easier when it really comes to building a boat. I've seen a Gordon Munro design from 1928, which is a beauty, but a center-boarder. A NA could spec it out for me. I would certainly want a more modern accomodation plan, and a simplified sail plan but these old designs seem just about perfect. I finally came to motorsailing, once I decided that if I needed a sail back-up, I might as well sail outright and get the benefit of the sailing experience. Running downwind in the evening sun light in a strong breeze. It takes me back to my Navy days, now long past. Peace Kharee

[FAST FRED]

Think better, with todays materials a 90/90 can be done.

A boat that sails as well as any cruiser , but pays the penalty of having a tiny bit larger engine , and carries the weight of much more fuel (as required).

AS a motor boat the only "penalty" is the extra draft and keel weight for the rig , and the slight aero drag of pushing the mast thru the air.

Motor Sailors can get loaded down with tons of "stuff". Which hurts performance under sail OR power.

FF

[kharee]

The larger Atkins motorsailers listed on their website are actually small boats for this day and age. I think updated construction materials and techniques along with modernized accomodations (lose the ice box and add a shower, a little extra tankage instead of extra berths) and engines would make great live-aboard cruisers for singles or couples.

[FAST FRED]

Most present sailboats can motor with reasonable efficiency.

If you are building the boat , leave room to swing a 24 inch 2 blade prop.

These can be locked behind the deadwood for very little drag under sail, yet the LARGE diameter and 2 big blades will have the ability to produce the required thrust at low fuel cost.

FF

[gonzo]

What are reffered to as sailboats today are usually auxiliaries. That is, they have a motor. Motorsailor is a term coined by sales brochures writers decades ago. It was at the time when auxiliaries had heavy underpowered engines. Nowadays, outboards get boats to hull speed. Many of the modern motorsailors are slow trawlers with an undersized rig. They are slow and unwieldly on either mode. I think an Atkins with a modern engine and rig would be great.

[Olivebank]

I would love to point out a motorsailer built from 1970-1980 (oldie but goodie). We have not found a single Claymore Motorsailer owner in the United States.
Are there any out there? Would love to hear from you!
http://www.eastcoasthorizon.com/Claymore/index.htm

[brian eiland]

I guess I don't recall, or have forgotten the Atkins vessels, but I imagine most were of wooden construction and it might be hard to find a used one in decent shape.

However I am an unabashed fan of motorsailers: Here are a few reference postings:

Rhodes and Alden Motorsailers
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16721
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sailing-discussion/6710-motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden.html


Monohull vs Multihull, powersailers / motorsailers
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4499 (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4499)


New Age Trawler/Motorsailer....Kite assisted PowerYacht
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20319

[kharee]

Hello Olivebank. The Claymore is quite an attractive boat. I like the design brief. A design for blue water. The size is right. The aft cabin is very appealing.
The center cockpit is a good idea, espoused by Robert Beebe in his design of Passagemaker.

How well do they sail?

[Olivebank]

It's difficult for me to comment on how the Claymore motorsailers 'sail' as a whole because our Claymore (1970) is an oddball. At one point she was owned by a rather eccentric gentleman who decided that a junk rig would be a nifty idea. It's actually very interesting on the water, because of the look of the boat with the tanbark colored junk rig sails - not the norm. Our boat tends to be a bit "tippy" mainly because of a mast that we feel is much too heavy. When we win the lottery maybe will look at carbon fiber. You can read under cruise logs on our website; John on his M/S "Claymore" with the standard Claymore rig writes about how his boat handles under sail.
Best regards!

[MarkC]

What is the forum's opinion of the Atkin's motorsailer designs compared to more modern designs in general? In particular the Hartley & Brookes Tahitian designs.

Don't really think there is much difference in the dates when the Atkin and Hartly designs were released. Perhaps both were designed in the 1950 or 1960s?

The Atkins' 'Vega' design is an honest-looking 'salty' design. This traditional-look seems to be quite popular with some in the USA at the moment. (I would love to have it but built in steel).

I have seen some nicely done Tahitians and some more ratty ones too.

Many of the modern motorsailors are slow trawlers with an undersized rig. They are slow and unwieldly on either mode.

I understand what you mean, but I think motorsailers have their place - even today. Great for places like where I grew up - with no winds in the mornings so you had to motor and howling afternoon sea-to-land (convection?) winds.

Atkins 44' Vega and the 28' Degero (below)

[RHP]

The LM range from Scandanavia were always nice yachts and look very similar to the Degero shown. Yacht World has a few for sale at reasonable prices (LM30, LM290/29/27 etc..)

[Olivebank]

You might be interested in Guillermo Gafaell's classification of ratios on his website: http://www.xente.mundo-r.com/motorsailers/label.htm
It gives a lot of good information about motorsailer sail to power ratios.
Regards,
Olivebank
http://www.eastcoasthorizon.com/Claymore/index.htm

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Eileen (or Peter?). :) Nice to meet you in these forums.

Kharee,
you can navigate through the pages of the two sites under my signature, to find something about motorsailers.

Best.

[Olivebank]

Good day, Guillermo! I didn't think you'd mind me posting your information. We found it very interesting and your credentials as a naval architect certainly give you the ability to teach us all - even about the boats we think we know so well. Many thanks!
Eileen (m/s 'Olivebank')
http://www.eastcoasthorizon.com/Claymore/index.htm

[Guillermo]

....and your credentials as a naval architect certainly give you the ability to teach us all...
Mmmm...I wouldn't say that. Rather the opposite. Thanks anyhow for your nice words.

Cheers.

[lazeyjack]

finally got some sailing pics my last build on her way to Darwin for Indonesia rally, not really mo sailer , but a 100/100

[MikeJohns]

Well done, great build quality. You shouldn't be retired, get back to the coal face:)

[lazeyjack]

Mike I am blushing, I jsut spent 40 days in Turkey /Ukraine exploring the poss of starting, but the Turks they tell me one thing today , something else , next, wonderful place,
This is Nimbus finally being used and they call each day , they are delighted, which is kinda pleasing
But Aussies dont buy spensive monos things may change, with price fuel, who wants a Riviera swallowing 50 gals hour

[Guillermo]

Hi, Stu! Welcome back!
You should post more images from construction details and solutions adopted in this your very nice boat.
All the best.

[lazeyjack]

just came thru
i would not use this rig next time, would have aft lowers, no runners, heavier stick section, hyd furlers although they replaced the bamars now they are ok, as I said once before, the leisurefurl main is very hard on luff rope , but with boom so high hard to find alt

[brian eiland]

just came thru
i would not use this rig next time, would have aft lowers, no runners, heavier stick section, hyd furlers although they replaced the bamars now they are ok, as I said once before, the leisurefurl main is very hard on luff rope , but with boom so high hard to find alt
Are you suggesting you might be tempted to a B&R type rig?

Was your furling boom main difficult to get working right?

Would like to hear more about your rig thoughts and suggestions?

[lazeyjack]

hello brian
no, the furling brand, LEISUREFURL, works well, the sail foot to luff is critical 3 degrees cut, and then you set the vang and leave it, this way the sail reefs in a tidy roll, if the sail is not cut right your roll will work towards the mast . We could reef in any weather, down or upwind There are huge loads on the reef line and a powerful winch, hyd or electric is needed on this size boat, but on pilot I could manage alone, paying out the halyard, and at same time powering on the reef line
They are very costly, no reason to be
I am not sure of the rig you are talking of
The new owners dont use the runners except in heavier weather
look here
http://www.leisurefurl.co.nz/
i fitted one of the earliest back in 89, was all sorta fabricated then, then the guy sold up, but they have always worked well, only way for superyachts too

[brian eiland]

...I am not sure of the rig you are talking of...
Bergstrom & Ridder (B&R) rig
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=212658&postcount=15
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1534

[eponodyne]

Barely smaller than the Vega, more motor than sailor:

MAGPIE (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Magpie.html)

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Magpie-1.gifhttp://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Photos/Magpie/Magpie-01.jpg

[RHP]

What a beautiful yacht, Humphrey Bogart must be down below.

[Olivebank]

You forgot Lauren..... :-)