Dan Ellison
12-23-2006, 10:01 AM
Great site,
View Full Version : waterspeed record
stonebreaker
12-23-2006, 10:57 AM
I LOVE speed. If you were located in St Louis I'd volunteer to help in the shop. For nothing.
stonebreaker
12-23-2006, 11:19 AM
Go for it. And if you need help, check out some of the hotrodding forums. There are gearheads aplenty out there who would love to help out on a project like this, even if you couldn't afford to pay them. Maybe you could get some students from a local University to help out? Maybe the University might be willing to donate some computer time, if they have an aeronautical engineering department?
Vega
12-23-2006, 12:59 PM
I already own the molds for my own designed boat.
Can we see the designs? I would love to take a look;)
Good luck for your project and please, keep us posted .;)
Can we see the designs? I would love to take a look;)
Good luck for your project and please, keep us posted .;)
Tim B
12-23-2006, 03:13 PM
Just remember what you're dealing with, and the people it's claimed in the past.
At high speeds, things on water happen VERY fast.
I suggest you have a look at Campbell's Bluebird. there's a lot that can be learnt from that.
Tim B.
At high speeds, things on water happen VERY fast.
I suggest you have a look at Campbell's Bluebird. there's a lot that can be learnt from that.
Tim B.
Tim B
12-23-2006, 06:06 PM
I'm just saying, remember what you're dealing with. I know how easy it is to get wrapped up in a design and miss important features. On a high-speed boat, everything is absolutely critical, and there is no room for error.
I wish you luck,
Tim B.
I wish you luck,
Tim B.
stonebreaker
12-23-2006, 06:58 PM
Dan,
Are you planning on scaling the boat up in size? How are you planning on fitting a enough power to go 500 mph onto that little boat? Rockets?
Are you planning on scaling the boat up in size? How are you planning on fitting a enough power to go 500 mph onto that little boat? Rockets?
Frosty
12-23-2006, 11:09 PM
Im sure we are all well aware that one of the difficulties is keeping the thing on the water and not to take off.
When then does it become a plane, Is there some rules on how much wing you can have and how much weight of the thing is held up from water as opposed to air.
If there are no such rules then why not go and get a used F16 from the Military store and put some floats on it. This wouldnt take more than a morning and the speed trial could be done in the afternoon.
500 MPh is pretty slow in the aviation world.
Who and with what has the speed record now?
When then does it become a plane, Is there some rules on how much wing you can have and how much weight of the thing is held up from water as opposed to air.
If there are no such rules then why not go and get a used F16 from the Military store and put some floats on it. This wouldnt take more than a morning and the speed trial could be done in the afternoon.
500 MPh is pretty slow in the aviation world.
Who and with what has the speed record now?
Frosty
12-24-2006, 10:25 AM
I see that my slight attempt at sarcasm was not appreciated--sorry
However I would still like to know who and with what holds the speed record to date, and Is there any rules to this?
However I would still like to know who and with what holds the speed record to date, and Is there any rules to this?
stonebreaker
12-24-2006, 10:37 AM
Huh, I just looked up Ken Warby's record. For some reason, I had it in my mind that he ran 417 mph, but he actually "only" ran 318. Why I had it in my mind he ran 99 mph faster than he actually did, and not an even 100, I have no idea. I must be getting senile.
All of a sudden, your goal seems emminently reachable. And going with a lighter turbine or jet engine over the big block with a supercharger on it, seems like it would move the c/g forward somewhat, which should make the boat more stable, right?
All of a sudden, your goal seems emminently reachable. And going with a lighter turbine or jet engine over the big block with a supercharger on it, seems like it would move the c/g forward somewhat, which should make the boat more stable, right?
Frosty
12-24-2006, 10:44 AM
I just googled it --easier, 316.60.mph Australia.
A British attempt called Quick silver will be going for it in 2008 with 25,000 hp.
The Brits will piss it, there good at this sort of thing. Proper RR engines of course.
A British attempt called Quick silver will be going for it in 2008 with 25,000 hp.
The Brits will piss it, there good at this sort of thing. Proper RR engines of course.
lohring
12-24-2006, 11:22 AM
For those who don't know Dan, he once desgned and built the most desirable gasoline powered radio controlled hydros. I still have one from the late 1990s. I've seen pictures of his drag boats on top fuel crankshaft builder Henry Velaso's shop wall. He understands the problems, and has been slowly working up toward this record for years.
Good luck.
Lohring Miller
Good luck.
Lohring Miller
Jimboat
12-24-2006, 02:15 PM
Dan - sounds like an exciting project. I will watch your progress with interest.
Verytricky
12-25-2006, 04:01 PM
DRAGBOATS.COM is infected with a VIRUS and attempts to install the virus onto your computer.
DO NOT VISIT dragboats.com untill they have resolved this issue!!!
DO NOT VISIT dragboats.com untill they have resolved this issue!!!
stonebreaker
12-25-2006, 05:09 PM
No, he's right, the site attempts to install something. I don't think it's a virus, I think it's more like adware or spyware. You wouldn't get a warning unless you have anti-virus software running on your computer.
Verytricky
12-25-2006, 06:59 PM
Never had a problem with that site, sounds fishy, I not the only one interested in this record, Fact is theres a number of people ready this coming year.
Well, I may be just a frustrated Britt and I dont want people to see his designs, so an American cant break the record. Or I am an internet Troll logging onto theses forums just to spread discontent.
OR - DUH - I may be a long term member posting a warning that this particular website has a downloadable virus.
Your choice!
Well, I may be just a frustrated Britt and I dont want people to see his designs, so an American cant break the record. Or I am an internet Troll logging onto theses forums just to spread discontent.
OR - DUH - I may be a long term member posting a warning that this particular website has a downloadable virus.
Your choice!
Verytricky
12-25-2006, 07:05 PM
OK, it is a virus by definition: It is WM/PolyPoster virus.
NAME: PolyPoster
ALIAS: Agent, Embarrasment
WM/PolyPoster virus steals user documents and posts them on usenet newsgroup boards.
This virus uses advanced replication methods to spread within Microsoft Word documents. Once a machine becomes infected by the virus, all Word documents manipulated in it will become infected and the virus will spread within them to new machines.
However, the most disturbing part of the virus is in it's activation routine. The virus activates at random times, and will try to send the user's Word documents to Usenet newsgroups. As an end result, the virus could post, for example, company confidential data or highly personal material in an open cyber-forum
NAME: PolyPoster
ALIAS: Agent, Embarrasment
WM/PolyPoster virus steals user documents and posts them on usenet newsgroup boards.
This virus uses advanced replication methods to spread within Microsoft Word documents. Once a machine becomes infected by the virus, all Word documents manipulated in it will become infected and the virus will spread within them to new machines.
However, the most disturbing part of the virus is in it's activation routine. The virus activates at random times, and will try to send the user's Word documents to Usenet newsgroups. As an end result, the virus could post, for example, company confidential data or highly personal material in an open cyber-forum
BOATMIK
12-31-2006, 06:59 PM
I just googled it --easier, 316.60.mph Australia.
A British attempt called Quick silver will be going for it in 2008 with 25,000 hp.
The Brits will piss it, there good at this sort of thing. Proper RR engines of course.
Are you referring to the fates of John Cobb in Crusader and Donald Campbell in Bluebird?
Sorry, I couldn't resist teasing such a bold statement.
Campbell (there was a stage when I had read everything available about him) had huge amounts of corporate and government help. I think that type of support is much more difficult to get these days.
Australia's Ken Warby is primarily a backyard operator. His boat was built in his backyard with his own hands and buying materials and parts as he could afford them. I think his sponsorship at the time was pretty miniscule - little more than fuel.
He is building a new boat - but he works quietly without a song and dance so we hardly hear anything unless he actually breaks a record.
A great man.
Michael Storer
Australia
A British attempt called Quick silver will be going for it in 2008 with 25,000 hp.
The Brits will piss it, there good at this sort of thing. Proper RR engines of course.
Are you referring to the fates of John Cobb in Crusader and Donald Campbell in Bluebird?
Sorry, I couldn't resist teasing such a bold statement.
Campbell (there was a stage when I had read everything available about him) had huge amounts of corporate and government help. I think that type of support is much more difficult to get these days.
Australia's Ken Warby is primarily a backyard operator. His boat was built in his backyard with his own hands and buying materials and parts as he could afford them. I think his sponsorship at the time was pretty miniscule - little more than fuel.
He is building a new boat - but he works quietly without a song and dance so we hardly hear anything unless he actually breaks a record.
A great man.
Michael Storer
Australia
FranklinRatliff
01-10-2007, 10:53 PM
Are you referring to the fates of John Cobb in Crusader and Donald Campbell in Bluebird?
Sorry, I couldn't resist teasing such a bold statement.
Campbell (there was a stage when I had read everything available about him) had huge amounts of corporate and government help. I think that type of support is much more difficult to get these days.
Australia's Ken Warby is primarily a backyard operator. His boat was built in his backyard with his own hands and buying materials and parts as he could afford them. I think his sponsorship at the time was pretty miniscule - little more than fuel.
He is building a new boat - but he works quietly without a song and dance so we hardly hear anything unless he actually breaks a record.
A great man.
Michael Storer
Australia
In 1966/67, Campbell was working on a shoestring budget.
Sorry, I couldn't resist teasing such a bold statement.
Campbell (there was a stage when I had read everything available about him) had huge amounts of corporate and government help. I think that type of support is much more difficult to get these days.
Australia's Ken Warby is primarily a backyard operator. His boat was built in his backyard with his own hands and buying materials and parts as he could afford them. I think his sponsorship at the time was pretty miniscule - little more than fuel.
He is building a new boat - but he works quietly without a song and dance so we hardly hear anything unless he actually breaks a record.
A great man.
Michael Storer
Australia
In 1966/67, Campbell was working on a shoestring budget.
Dan Ellison
01-12-2007, 03:46 PM
I own the molds to my current drag racing outrigger. Very little modification for a kilo record hull. Wish I had the sponsor $$$ of Wicks or Quicksilver. I do know of an attempt early this spring,(wish it was me). This could get exciting!
FranklinRatliff
01-12-2007, 06:17 PM
I own the molds to my current drag racing outrigger. Very little modification for a kilo record hull. Wish I had the sponsor $$$ of Wicks or Quicksilver. I do know of an attempt early this spring,(wish it was me). This could get exciting!
Are you at liberty to tell us any more about the spring attempt?
Are you at liberty to tell us any more about the spring attempt?
FranklinRatliff
01-12-2007, 06:30 PM
Dan - To get enough power with a small lightweight boat like the one you seem to be describing, either a rocket motor (which has its set of issues) or an afterburning version of the General Electric J-85 or Pratt & Whitney J-60 will be required. Having said that, I see no particular reason why a small boat shouldn't be a viable record contender.
As best I could determine from having been an eyewitness, watching the video of the last run, and talking with friends of Craig Arfons this is what happened.
Craig's boat weighed 2,500 lbs and with the J-85 engine could develop about 5,000 lbs thrust on afterburner. The afterburner was installed only after initial trial runs revealed dry thrust would not be enough to break the record.
The major problem with Craig's boat was it would get up to a certain speed and veer off to the driver's right because it stopped responding to the rudder. For the record attempt they positioned the boat all the way to the left side of the course with the hope that by the time it got to the end of the kilo it would still be inside the course markers. Because of this problem the boat accelerated for a longer distance than it would have otherwise. About halfway through the kilo Craig gets worried he's going so far off course he's going to run out of lake so chops the engine. The sudden change in the loading on the sponsons sets off an episode of chinewalking, Craig releases the drag chute but it fails to inflate, and the boat does divergent enough to blowover.
The boat's Kevlar/fiberglass foamcore composite construction probably accounted for the boat being recovered in just two large pieces. The front half was intact except for a missing windscreen which I was later told had been punched out by a battery breaking loose from the control console. Craig was still alive when pulled from the cockpit and might have survived if one of the anchors for his restraint harness had not failed.
Whether a rudder and stabilizer fin arrangement like Bluebird's would've helped Craig's boat I don't know, but I was struck by the difference when I saw the photos of Bluebird's stern after its recovery.
The events above are why I believe you'll need a lake allowing plenty of room for a gradual shutdown of the engine. I'd look at using a quarter-turn ball valve for modulating fuel flow to the burner so the driver can roll back out of burner, then roll back the dry thrust so he doesn't abruptly unload the hull.
As best I could determine from having been an eyewitness, watching the video of the last run, and talking with friends of Craig Arfons this is what happened.
Craig's boat weighed 2,500 lbs and with the J-85 engine could develop about 5,000 lbs thrust on afterburner. The afterburner was installed only after initial trial runs revealed dry thrust would not be enough to break the record.
The major problem with Craig's boat was it would get up to a certain speed and veer off to the driver's right because it stopped responding to the rudder. For the record attempt they positioned the boat all the way to the left side of the course with the hope that by the time it got to the end of the kilo it would still be inside the course markers. Because of this problem the boat accelerated for a longer distance than it would have otherwise. About halfway through the kilo Craig gets worried he's going so far off course he's going to run out of lake so chops the engine. The sudden change in the loading on the sponsons sets off an episode of chinewalking, Craig releases the drag chute but it fails to inflate, and the boat does divergent enough to blowover.
The boat's Kevlar/fiberglass foamcore composite construction probably accounted for the boat being recovered in just two large pieces. The front half was intact except for a missing windscreen which I was later told had been punched out by a battery breaking loose from the control console. Craig was still alive when pulled from the cockpit and might have survived if one of the anchors for his restraint harness had not failed.
Whether a rudder and stabilizer fin arrangement like Bluebird's would've helped Craig's boat I don't know, but I was struck by the difference when I saw the photos of Bluebird's stern after its recovery.
The events above are why I believe you'll need a lake allowing plenty of room for a gradual shutdown of the engine. I'd look at using a quarter-turn ball valve for modulating fuel flow to the burner so the driver can roll back out of burner, then roll back the dry thrust so he doesn't abruptly unload the hull.
Dan Ellison
01-12-2007, 07:44 PM
I'm very familiar with the arfons hull. it was a modified deaver hydro that was lengthened. That hull is known to chine walk right before they blow off. My first outrigger customer crashed three of those before deciding a change was needed. They bought my first hull and have since a national event win and set there e.t. and mph best. My design has a narrow tub(driver and engine area) with a large stable footprint, No airtrap and a very unique tapered bottom. As far as the spring attempt, I can't say who or where because its not my project. Soon as they make it official I will post it.
FranklinRatliff
01-13-2007, 10:56 AM
I'm very familiar with the arfons hull. it was a modified deaver hydro that was lengthened. That hull is known to chine walk right before they blow off. My first outrigger customer crashed three of those before deciding a change was needed. They bought my first hull and have since a national event win and set there e.t. and mph best. My design has a narrow tub(driver and engine area) with a large stable footprint, No airtrap and a very unique tapered bottom. As far as the spring attempt, I can't say who or where because its not my project. Soon as they make it official I will post it.
Thanks, Dan.
It's good to know that the flaw in Craig's otherwise worthy and innovative approach was not one that would have been obvious before the boat ran, even to someone more experienced with boats.
After so much tragedy with the WSR since 1967 it sure would be nice to see a couple of successful attempts.
Thanks, Dan.
It's good to know that the flaw in Craig's otherwise worthy and innovative approach was not one that would have been obvious before the boat ran, even to someone more experienced with boats.
After so much tragedy with the WSR since 1967 it sure would be nice to see a couple of successful attempts.
marshmat
01-14-2007, 08:33 PM
Anyone know why the entire original post is now gone? The spyware complaint maybe?
FranklinRatliff
01-15-2007, 06:46 PM
Anyone know why the entire original post is now gone? The spyware complaint maybe?
Learn to recognize what discussions are about, instead of focusing on the incidental and irrelevant.
There is plenty enough here to get an idea of what sort of concept Dan Ellison has in mind.
Learn to recognize what discussions are about, instead of focusing on the incidental and irrelevant.
There is plenty enough here to get an idea of what sort of concept Dan Ellison has in mind.
Dan Ellison
01-20-2007, 12:22 PM
I would be glad to provide any info about my hull, It's not top secret, as I have sold three already. The molds, drawings, lamination schedules, are also for sale.
stonebreaker
01-20-2007, 12:43 PM
What kind of hull bottom design are you using on your sponsons? I'm really interested because I've been tossing around the idea of using a hickman sea sled bottom in place of the regular displacement pontoons to make sort of a sleeper performance cat that looks like a regular lake pontoon boat. I have a 355 ci LT1 out of a wrecked impala ss that I was planning on using for motive power.
Dan Ellison
01-21-2007, 09:30 AM
What kind of hull bottom design are you using on your sponsons? I'm really interested because I've been tossing around the idea of using a hickman sea sled bottom in place of the regular displacement pontoons to make sort of a sleeper performance cat that looks like a regular lake pontoon boat. I have a 355 ci LT1 out of a wrecked impala ss that I was planning on using for motive power.Stonebreaker, Thank you for the interest. You would need more of a cat type of sponson for the hull you describe. My hull is basically a hydroplane with no airtrap. The sponsons are relativly narrow and are designed for very high speeds. They would be only half the length you would need, Dan
FranklinRatliff
01-21-2007, 09:44 AM
What kind of hull bottom design are you using on your sponsons? I'm really interested because I've been tossing around the idea of using a hickman sea sled bottom in place of the regular displacement pontoons to make sort of a sleeper performance cat that looks like a regular lake pontoon boat. I have a 355 ci LT1 out of a wrecked impala ss that I was planning on using for motive power.
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art61.htm
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art62.htm
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art63.htm
The pontoons on this jet boat built by Art Arfons might be what you're looking for.
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art61.htm
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art62.htm
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art63.htm
The pontoons on this jet boat built by Art Arfons might be what you're looking for.
Dan Ellison
01-21-2007, 12:30 PM
Those interested in seeing pictures can google, B&R racing liquidquik. This was the 1st one of the 3 I've built. shows the hull being rigged with hardware, V-drives,Capsule ect. Will give you an idea of the outrigger concept. This hull won a national event this year(they never made a final until my hull)They have run 5sec at over 237 in the 1/4mile.
stonebreaker
01-21-2007, 01:44 PM
Stonebreaker, Thank you for the interest. You would need more of a cat type of sponson for the hull you describe. My hull is basically a hydroplane with no airtrap. The sponsons are relativly narrow and are designed for very high speeds. They would be only half the length you would need, Dan
No, I don't want to trap air under the central portion of the boat - I only want to use the sea sled shape to cut friction by trapping air under the pontoons only. I don't have the math skills to calculate the boat's performance, and since I really don't have much of an idea of how fast this boat can go with the engine I have available to use (online calculators are guessing between 55 and 90 mph), I didn't want to risk a blowover. That's why I was asking about your sponsons, I realized you were using the same idea (only more refined and better engineered).
No, I don't want to trap air under the central portion of the boat - I only want to use the sea sled shape to cut friction by trapping air under the pontoons only. I don't have the math skills to calculate the boat's performance, and since I really don't have much of an idea of how fast this boat can go with the engine I have available to use (online calculators are guessing between 55 and 90 mph), I didn't want to risk a blowover. That's why I was asking about your sponsons, I realized you were using the same idea (only more refined and better engineered).
Jimboat
01-21-2007, 01:49 PM
stonebreaker - if you want to be able to calculate the performance of your hull design, check out "Secrets of Tunnel Boat Design (http://www.aeromarineresearch.com/stbd2.html)" book and "Tunnel Boat Design" software (http://www.aeromarineresearch.com/tbdp6.html).
stonebreaker
01-21-2007, 01:54 PM
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art61.htm
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art62.htm
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art63.htm
The pontoons on this jet boat built by Art Arfons might be what you're looking for.
Yeah, they're exactly what I'm looking for - you can see in the third pick that Arfons is using sea sled hulls in exactly the way I'm planning on. I can't tell you how encouraging it is to realize I came up with the same idea as Art Arfons! (except for the part with the jet engine and the wheels :p ).
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art62.htm
http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art63.htm
The pontoons on this jet boat built by Art Arfons might be what you're looking for.
Yeah, they're exactly what I'm looking for - you can see in the third pick that Arfons is using sea sled hulls in exactly the way I'm planning on. I can't tell you how encouraging it is to realize I came up with the same idea as Art Arfons! (except for the part with the jet engine and the wheels :p ).
stonebreaker
01-22-2007, 12:23 AM
Hey Dan,
I was reading up on some of the other guys who are planning a water speed record attempt, and one of them mentioned the difficulty in modeling what the boat does as it hits waves and bounces around, and how the forces build as the speed increases. It got me thinking - do the struts connecting your sponsons to the main hull flex at all? I was wondering if a little flex built into the struts might not act like suspension. Or maybe build an actual suspension with springs and shocks? It would certainly help when hitting a stray wake at 300 mph.
I was reading up on some of the other guys who are planning a water speed record attempt, and one of them mentioned the difficulty in modeling what the boat does as it hits waves and bounces around, and how the forces build as the speed increases. It got me thinking - do the struts connecting your sponsons to the main hull flex at all? I was wondering if a little flex built into the struts might not act like suspension. Or maybe build an actual suspension with springs and shocks? It would certainly help when hitting a stray wake at 300 mph.
Dan Ellison
01-22-2007, 10:45 AM
No, it is not meant to flex. That can cause the attack angle and deadrise to change, creating more drag on one sponson causing the hull to pull left or right,Not good at over 200+mph. Deadrise and sponson shape dictate how it will handle wakes. My RC models are raced in some rough water. This boat was designed off of that model.(which still hold several heat race records)A properly balanced hull will fly level,even if it's off the water. It's still a hydroplane.
RatliffFranklin
01-22-2007, 11:03 AM
No, it is not meant to flex. That can cause the attack angle and deadrise to change, creating more drag on one sponson causing the hull to pull left or right,Not good at over 200+mph. Deadrise and sponson shape dictate how it will handle wakes. My RC models are raced in some rough water. This boat was designed off of that model.(which still hold several heat race records)A properly balanced hull will fly level,even if it's off the water. It's still a hydroplane.
Warby's record setting "Spirit of Australia" was always exhibiting some degree of sponson walking.
Campbell's "Bluebird" on the other hand planed dead level with rocksolid stability.
Ironic, huh?
http://www.racingcampbells.com/content/boats.asp
The webpage above has a great cutaway drawing showing "Bluebird" in its 1955 configuration.
Warby's record setting "Spirit of Australia" was always exhibiting some degree of sponson walking.
Campbell's "Bluebird" on the other hand planed dead level with rocksolid stability.
Ironic, huh?
http://www.racingcampbells.com/content/boats.asp
The webpage above has a great cutaway drawing showing "Bluebird" in its 1955 configuration.
Dan Ellison
01-22-2007, 12:49 PM
Your right about Warby's sponson walk. I still believe that the outrigger design is superior in stability. Warby's hull was very narrow and was an airtraping type of hull. Looked alot like Lee Taylors. I'm trying to push a small amount of air with a large footprint. Also an outrigger lets you get away with less weight.Thanks for more bluebird pictures,That boat was ahead of its time.
RatliffFranklin
01-22-2007, 12:52 PM
Craig's last run in his jet hydroplane was the first time that boat had ever been run on glass smooth water.
In the video you can see, as Craig was still in dry thrust accelerating out of the cove at the north end of the lake, a distinct regular pitching oscillation where the sponsons were dipping in and out of the water. The pitching seemed to diminish when he hit the afterburner, but go up in frequency.
I wonder if this was a noticeable but insignificant quirk of the boat's behavior, or a characteristic of the Deaver hulls?
In the video you can see, as Craig was still in dry thrust accelerating out of the cove at the north end of the lake, a distinct regular pitching oscillation where the sponsons were dipping in and out of the water. The pitching seemed to diminish when he hit the afterburner, but go up in frequency.
I wonder if this was a noticeable but insignificant quirk of the boat's behavior, or a characteristic of the Deaver hulls?
RatliffFranklin
01-22-2007, 12:57 PM
Your right about Warby's sponson walk. I still believe that the outrigger design is superior in stability. Warby's hull was very narrow and was an airtraping type of hull. Looked alot like Lee Taylors. I'm trying to push a small amount of air with a large footprint. Also an outrigger lets you get away with less weight.Thanks for more bluebird pictures,That boat was ahead of its time.
The more I've learned about high speed boats the farther ahead of its time Bluebird seems to me.
With dragboats now pushing 260 mph they're actually going faster than most of the Bluebird records.
Since that's being done with air trap hulls it's makes me wonder what a small outrigger boat can do with the WSR.
http://www.users.myisp.co.uk/~climengs/bluebird/coniston.htm
The above webpage has a picture worth a thousand words photo of Bluebird's transom. The late Ken Norris believed that had Campbell applied the water brake first then reduced throttle he may have saved the boat.
The more I've learned about high speed boats the farther ahead of its time Bluebird seems to me.
With dragboats now pushing 260 mph they're actually going faster than most of the Bluebird records.
Since that's being done with air trap hulls it's makes me wonder what a small outrigger boat can do with the WSR.
http://www.users.myisp.co.uk/~climengs/bluebird/coniston.htm
The above webpage has a picture worth a thousand words photo of Bluebird's transom. The late Ken Norris believed that had Campbell applied the water brake first then reduced throttle he may have saved the boat.
Dan Ellison
01-22-2007, 02:20 PM
The more I've learned about high speed boats the farther ahead of its time Bluebird seems to me.
With dragboats now pushing 260 mph they're actually going faster than most of the Bluebird records.
Since that's being done with air trap hulls it's makes me wonder what a small outrigger boat can do with the WSR.
http://www.users.myisp.co.uk/~climengs/bluebird/coniston.htm
The above webpage has a picture worth a thousand words photo of Bluebird's transom. The late Ken Norris believed that had Campbell applied the water brake first then reduced throttle he may have saved the boat.The gains in drag boats is because of the success of the twindrives. Counterotating propellers have provided them with more stability.The airtrap hulls used today are made very heavy to keep them on the water and it takes alot of hp to move that weight(7000+hp). On the other hand the 1st team using my outrigger is able to get the same performance with far less hp(4500). They haven't tapped into to the boats potential. Take out the drives,shafts,struts,props, All the gear to run the fuel engine and I could get the jet boat in the 2000lb range easy. Just a thought.
With dragboats now pushing 260 mph they're actually going faster than most of the Bluebird records.
Since that's being done with air trap hulls it's makes me wonder what a small outrigger boat can do with the WSR.
http://www.users.myisp.co.uk/~climengs/bluebird/coniston.htm
The above webpage has a picture worth a thousand words photo of Bluebird's transom. The late Ken Norris believed that had Campbell applied the water brake first then reduced throttle he may have saved the boat.The gains in drag boats is because of the success of the twindrives. Counterotating propellers have provided them with more stability.The airtrap hulls used today are made very heavy to keep them on the water and it takes alot of hp to move that weight(7000+hp). On the other hand the 1st team using my outrigger is able to get the same performance with far less hp(4500). They haven't tapped into to the boats potential. Take out the drives,shafts,struts,props, All the gear to run the fuel engine and I could get the jet boat in the 2000lb range easy. Just a thought.
stonebreaker
01-22-2007, 02:26 PM
Anyone know if Art Arfons ever tested his 'wheeled boat' back in 1967-68? From the lack of info it obviously never went for the record, but I'm curious to know if his wheel concept worked. I'm guessing it didn't since there only seems to be info on 'before', but I'd still like to know what happened.
RatliffFranklin
01-22-2007, 02:28 PM
The gains in drag boats is because of the success of the twindrives. Counterotating propellers have provided them with more stability.The airtrap hulls used today are made very heavy to keep them on the water and it takes alot of hp to move that weight(7000+hp). On the other hand the 1st team using my outrigger is able to get the same performance with far less hp(4500). They haven't tapped into to the boats potential. Take out the drives,shafts,struts,props, All the gear to run the fuel engine and I could get the jet boat in the 2000lb range easy. Just a thought.
Craig's boat weighed about 2,500 lbs.
I think using the outrigger concept an even lighter boat would be very doable.
Craig's boat weighed about 2,500 lbs.
I think using the outrigger concept an even lighter boat would be very doable.
RatliffFranklin
01-22-2007, 02:32 PM
Anyone know if Art Arfons ever tested his 'wheeled boat' back in 1967-68? From the lack of info it obviously never went for the record, but I'm curious to know if his wheel concept worked. I'm guessing it didn't since there only seems to be info on 'before', but I'd still like to know what happened.
Unfortunately, Art didn't get sponsorship so the potential of his concept remains an unknown.
Unfortunately, Art didn't get sponsorship so the potential of his concept remains an unknown.
stonebreaker
01-22-2007, 03:13 PM
Unfortunately, Art didn't get sponsorship so the potential of his concept remains an unknown.
Well, it had potential: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/262235/jeep_over_water/
Well, it had potential: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/262235/jeep_over_water/
RatliffFranklin
01-22-2007, 03:21 PM
Well, it had potential: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/262235/jeep_over_water/
That gives hydroplaning a whole new meaning.
That gives hydroplaning a whole new meaning.
RatliffFranklin
01-23-2007, 09:33 AM
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Speedrecordgroup/
Above is a great photo of Bluebird in its final form at speed on the lake. According to the article below, by the time Bluebird hit the water after the blowover it had decelerated to 185 mph.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,819583,00.html
Above is a great photo of Bluebird in its final form at speed on the lake. According to the article below, by the time Bluebird hit the water after the blowover it had decelerated to 185 mph.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,819583,00.html
RatliffFranklin
01-23-2007, 02:02 PM
( www.lesliefield.com , click on "other history" then on "straightaway record." )
In the articles about Les Staudacher on Leslie Field's site, it can be seen how when Staudacher had the opportunity to build a second WSR jet boat he went away from the pickle fork airtrapping hull of Tempo Alcoa to an outrigger design much like Bluebird for Miss Stars & Stripes. Unlike a modern pickle fork drag boat, when Staudacher was testing Tempo Alcoa it would sometimes take him a mile to break suction and get on plane, so with Miss Stars & Stripes he was looking to build a hull that would break loose much easier.
Although it was a helluva way for a photographer to get the shots, the photos of Miss Stars & Stripes upsidedown on the shore give some great views of the boat's underside details
In the articles about Les Staudacher on Leslie Field's site, it can be seen how when Staudacher had the opportunity to build a second WSR jet boat he went away from the pickle fork airtrapping hull of Tempo Alcoa to an outrigger design much like Bluebird for Miss Stars & Stripes. Unlike a modern pickle fork drag boat, when Staudacher was testing Tempo Alcoa it would sometimes take him a mile to break suction and get on plane, so with Miss Stars & Stripes he was looking to build a hull that would break loose much easier.
Although it was a helluva way for a photographer to get the shots, the photos of Miss Stars & Stripes upsidedown on the shore give some great views of the boat's underside details
Hoffman
01-29-2007, 12:24 PM
Dan, as an avid dragboat racing fan and after seeing two of your hulls at the IHBA World Finals this year, I was interested to find out more information about the hull and you. The only information I have come across is this forum and the B&R Racing site, which I have been following for a few years. Dan, you should create a website of your own so your vision can be made more public and possible gain some sponsor money to progress your vision. I highly respect what you are doing and wish you the best of luck. Please keep us up to date on your progress.
I would like to see, be kept up to date and a continued list of the following:
1- Pictures of Arfons’ Deaver hull.
2- Dates and locations of attempts to set a new water speed record.
3- A continued list of people / organizations and websites that are pursuing the water speed record.
Quicksilver | www.quicksilver-wsr.co.uk/quicksilver
Russ Wicks | www.russwicks.com
Ken Warby | www.kenwarby.com
Dan Ellison
I would like to see, be kept up to date and a continued list of the following:
1- Pictures of Arfons’ Deaver hull.
2- Dates and locations of attempts to set a new water speed record.
3- A continued list of people / organizations and websites that are pursuing the water speed record.
Quicksilver | www.quicksilver-wsr.co.uk/quicksilver
Russ Wicks | www.russwicks.com
Ken Warby | www.kenwarby.com
Dan Ellison
RatliffFranklin
01-29-2007, 12:40 PM
Dan, as an avid dragboat racing fan and after seeing two of your hulls at the IHBA World Finals this year, I was interested to find out more information about the hull and you. The only information I have come across is this forum and the B&R Racing site, which I have been following for a few years. Dan, you should create a website of your own so your vision can be made more public and possible gain some sponsor money to progress your vision. I highly respect what you are doing and wish you the best of luck. Please keep us up to date on your progress.
I would like to see, be kept up to date and a continued list of the following:
1- Pictures of Arfons’ Deaver hull.
2- Dates and locations of attempts to set a new water speed record.
3- A continued list of people / organizations and websites that are pursuing the water speed record.
Quicksilver | www.quicksilver-wsr.co.uk/quicksilver
Russ Wicks | www.russwicks.com
Ken Warby | www.kenwarby.com
Dan Ellison
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15459
I posted some of my photos of Craig Arfons' boat in the above thread.
I would like to see, be kept up to date and a continued list of the following:
1- Pictures of Arfons’ Deaver hull.
2- Dates and locations of attempts to set a new water speed record.
3- A continued list of people / organizations and websites that are pursuing the water speed record.
Quicksilver | www.quicksilver-wsr.co.uk/quicksilver
Russ Wicks | www.russwicks.com
Ken Warby | www.kenwarby.com
Dan Ellison
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15459
I posted some of my photos of Craig Arfons' boat in the above thread.
Dan Ellison
01-29-2007, 12:52 PM
Hoffman, thank you for your interest. I have not made it official about the waterspeed record. I am hoping to generate enough interest in the hull that an attempt would be possible. Just getting the 3 drag boats on the water has been a struggle. The boats are a small part-time project. I'm also waiting for the group out of california(unamed still) to make there run. The only thing holding me back is a lack of funding. Hope this will change this year. As far as the web site, coming in the near future.
RatliffFranklin
01-29-2007, 01:24 PM
Hoffman, thank you for your interest. I have not made it official about the waterspeed record. I am hoping to generate enough interest in the hull that an attempt would be possible. Just getting the 3 drag boats on the water has been a struggle. The boats are a small part-time project. I'm also waiting for the group out of california(unamed still) to make there run. The only thing holding me back is a lack of funding. Hope this will change this year. As far as the web site, coming in the near future.
www.laffin-gas.com
Dan - The hybrid rocket technology being developed by this drag racing team in England might be the most affordable powerplant having all the characteristics needed for a WSR boat.
www.laffin-gas.com
Dan - The hybrid rocket technology being developed by this drag racing team in England might be the most affordable powerplant having all the characteristics needed for a WSR boat.
stonebreaker
01-29-2007, 08:17 PM
www.laffin-gas.com
Dan - The hybrid rocket technology being developed by this drag racing team in England might be the most affordable powerplant having all the characteristics needed for a WSR boat.
That's the same type of powerplant that Burt Rutan used on Space Ship One to win the X-prize.
Dan - The hybrid rocket technology being developed by this drag racing team in England might be the most affordable powerplant having all the characteristics needed for a WSR boat.
That's the same type of powerplant that Burt Rutan used on Space Ship One to win the X-prize.
RatliffFranklin
01-30-2007, 08:56 AM
That's the same type of powerplant that Burt Rutan used on Space Ship One to win the X-prize.
Both systems use nitrous oxide as the oxidizer.
The dragster's system is in some ways a little more sophisticated than Rutan's because it has a degree of throttleability while Rutan's system was simply on/off.
Both systems use nitrous oxide as the oxidizer.
The dragster's system is in some ways a little more sophisticated than Rutan's because it has a degree of throttleability while Rutan's system was simply on/off.
rebar
09-14-2008, 10:14 AM
Congrats on your world record Dan. Heres Dans website.
http://www.ellisonraceconcepts.com/
I have one of his RC models and its neat to know the same person who built mine , built many record holding boats RC and full size. Heres a link to info on his models. Never know.. One day his models maybe collectable.
http://www.jrcbd.com/showthread.php?t=16972
I would be glad to provide any info about my hull, It's not top secret, as I have sold three already. The molds, drawings, lamination schedules, are also for sale.
Iv always dreamt about building a full size rigger and was wondering if you could answer a few questions about your latest outrigger.
Is the AOA on the full scale sponsons close to the models at around 3 degrees?
Your full size uses rear sponsons but your models don't. Can you briefly explain why.
And where is the CG on your full size rigger? Does it follow the 15% after plane guide lines we use for models?
Again.. Congrats Dan. Your living the dream! Good luck!
http://www.ellisonraceconcepts.com/
I have one of his RC models and its neat to know the same person who built mine , built many record holding boats RC and full size. Heres a link to info on his models. Never know.. One day his models maybe collectable.
http://www.jrcbd.com/showthread.php?t=16972
I would be glad to provide any info about my hull, It's not top secret, as I have sold three already. The molds, drawings, lamination schedules, are also for sale.
Iv always dreamt about building a full size rigger and was wondering if you could answer a few questions about your latest outrigger.
Is the AOA on the full scale sponsons close to the models at around 3 degrees?
Your full size uses rear sponsons but your models don't. Can you briefly explain why.
And where is the CG on your full size rigger? Does it follow the 15% after plane guide lines we use for models?
Again.. Congrats Dan. Your living the dream! Good luck!
Dan Ellison
10-12-2008, 10:14 AM
An update on ellison race concepts, Working on the 7th outrigger hull, 6 are top fuel and the 7th is an alchohal version. Current IHBA et record holder@ 4.58 sec and current SDBA et record holder @ 4.81 sec. 07 and 08 SDBA top fuel champion, IHBA national event winners @ augusta, red bluff, and sandiego bayfair. The wsr hull is in the works as most of the running gear has been sponsored or promised, I am looking for a T-55 as this will be a propeller driven craft. Both records will be attempted, propeller and outright. Thanks all for the interest, Dan
jbaptistk
04-01-2009, 03:45 PM
WWW.ELLISONRACECONCEPTS.COM
Dan Ellison
01-01-2010, 01:56 PM
I would be glad to provide any info about my hull, It's not top secret//////
afrhydro
01-01-2010, 05:36 PM
wtg dan i just saw this a skimmed threw it a bit
do you know about Al copland Jr,s new boat
i spoke with Ken Warby on the putor the other day
they should get the proppeller record but Kens record will never be beat with a proppller driven boat
IMO and Kens IMO
but heres the link and i have pictures of the new boat on my shop putor from its unveiling in keywest
http://www.copelandsphenomenon.com/
i would love to see your new boat heres my email
swsteffe316@msn.com
did you make fire lake this year my other hydro i built ran lake racer # 002 he had engine trouble but it ran first pic is of the new paint as it raced in the finals
do you know about Al copland Jr,s new boat
i spoke with Ken Warby on the putor the other day
they should get the proppeller record but Kens record will never be beat with a proppller driven boat
IMO and Kens IMO
but heres the link and i have pictures of the new boat on my shop putor from its unveiling in keywest
http://www.copelandsphenomenon.com/
i would love to see your new boat heres my email
swsteffe316@msn.com
did you make fire lake this year my other hydro i built ran lake racer # 002 he had engine trouble but it ran first pic is of the new paint as it raced in the finals
Dan Ellison
01-03-2010, 08:20 PM
wtg dan i just saw this a skimmed threw it a bit
do you know about Al copland Jr,s new boat
i spoke with Ken Warby on the putor the other day
they should get the proppeller record but Kens record will never be beat with a proppller driven boat
IMO and Kens IMO
but heres the link and i have pictures of the new boat on my shop putor from its unveiling in keywest
http://www.copelandsphenomenon.com/
i would love to see your new boat heres my email
swsteffe316@msn.com
did you make fire lake this year my other hydro i built ran lake racer # 002 he had engine trouble but it ran first pic is of the new paint as it raced in the finals I saw that a while back. The current speed record for the quarter mile is 260 and change with several passes @264 and 265mph . my hull has ran 262 and 270. I have designed my outrigger to run over 300 with props. It can be done with a small amount of funding. I need a sponsor and I can build the rest and it's on the water for the propeller and outright record. I bet I could do it for less than what there paintjob cost!
do you know about Al copland Jr,s new boat
i spoke with Ken Warby on the putor the other day
they should get the proppeller record but Kens record will never be beat with a proppller driven boat
IMO and Kens IMO
but heres the link and i have pictures of the new boat on my shop putor from its unveiling in keywest
http://www.copelandsphenomenon.com/
i would love to see your new boat heres my email
swsteffe316@msn.com
did you make fire lake this year my other hydro i built ran lake racer # 002 he had engine trouble but it ran first pic is of the new paint as it raced in the finals I saw that a while back. The current speed record for the quarter mile is 260 and change with several passes @264 and 265mph . my hull has ran 262 and 270. I have designed my outrigger to run over 300 with props. It can be done with a small amount of funding. I need a sponsor and I can build the rest and it's on the water for the propeller and outright record. I bet I could do it for less than what there paintjob cost!
afrhydro
01-03-2010, 08:57 PM
didnt you have some molds for sale a while back as well all i could do for you would be to offer up a discounted labour rate
we are quite a distance apart but i would love to help
i got the same thing here i know i could have got that electric record and the hull i designed for it runs 70 + all day now and might be able to make a 100 + with just a few ajustments maybe even just with transfer of weight funding has always held me back if some one says that cant be done my ears perk right up
i think you got my number if not its on my web page
have you ever thought of putting a outboard on one of your hulls that record is only 179
we are quite a distance apart but i would love to help
i got the same thing here i know i could have got that electric record and the hull i designed for it runs 70 + all day now and might be able to make a 100 + with just a few ajustments maybe even just with transfer of weight funding has always held me back if some one says that cant be done my ears perk right up
i think you got my number if not its on my web page
have you ever thought of putting a outboard on one of your hulls that record is only 179
Loosecannon
01-18-2010, 07:25 AM
1/4 mile speeds is a very different deal to flying kilo's and sustained high speeds, People have paid with their lives finding that out, Dragboats are made for a 400 meter run, thay are a very different animal to a wwsr craft, people have also died finding that out, A 1/4 mile of water is much easier to control than 8-10 Kilo's of water you WILL need to take a shot at the WWSR, so you better make sure you hull can deal with changing water conditions
Why a Prop??...... GP and Unlimited's have having prop failure's at 180-200MPH, over flying Kilo's doesn't that tell you something? trying to bite off the outright with a prop is asking for big problems
Budgets???.....I don't think anybody will beat the tiny, tiny Budget Warby done his record on
There is NO money, nor real interests in WWSR theses days, if there was, the outright would of been broken by now believe me
Sponsors want more than just a headline, or a news story theses days
Why a Prop??...... GP and Unlimited's have having prop failure's at 180-200MPH, over flying Kilo's doesn't that tell you something? trying to bite off the outright with a prop is asking for big problems
Budgets???.....I don't think anybody will beat the tiny, tiny Budget Warby done his record on
There is NO money, nor real interests in WWSR theses days, if there was, the outright would of been broken by now believe me
Sponsors want more than just a headline, or a news story theses days
powerabout
01-20-2010, 05:32 AM
The outright prop is only about 220mph and quiet a few offshore race boats can do 200 these days with v8 chevs.
One boat posted a 198mph lap average the other day in a race
Al Copelands Jnr's boat should do that easy with turbines and props
One boat posted a 198mph lap average the other day in a race
Al Copelands Jnr's boat should do that easy with turbines and props
afrhydro
01-20-2010, 06:41 AM
its been real quite in the copeland camp everyone is on the edge of our seats waiting to hear the news on how well it ran
they should have tested it back in dec in the swamps of la some where thats all anybody knows just yet
im sure that prop record will be theres soon
good luck on your record 1/4 mile records runs ! in 2010 Dan im sure you will get more then one this year
they should have tested it back in dec in the swamps of la some where thats all anybody knows just yet
im sure that prop record will be theres soon
good luck on your record 1/4 mile records runs ! in 2010 Dan im sure you will get more then one this year
Dan Ellison
02-13-2010, 05:00 PM
.No longer available. Drawings were specific to customer and destroyed after completion where new would be made specific new consomer only , lamination schedules provided by fiberglass builder and not for disclosure. Molds are stored. may destroyed do to a BS lawsuit.
afrhydro
02-13-2010, 07:28 PM
No longer available. Drawings were specific to customer and destroyed after completion where new would be made specific new consomer only , lamination schedules provided by fiberglass builder and not for disclosure. Molds are stored. may destroyed do to a BS lawsuit.
wow let me know what you can when you can
we all know lawyers are just in it for the money
good luck Dan
wow let me know what you can when you can
we all know lawyers are just in it for the money
good luck Dan
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