the vector fin proa

[fritz roth]

.

.... if you are going out with a regular 8' dingy ....

you will soon notice that >

either you are going slow
or you are making a big wake !


now take a trip on a 16' kayak
there things are already better

but its a hassle to get in and out !

or take a 32' skuller >
the best in speed
but you need to stabilise your self constantly
with your skulls !

now put a sail on your dingy !

notice the preformance > like above >
your are either going slowly
or are making a big wake >

meaning energy is wasted !


or if you increase the lenght
you have a hell of a problem !

keeping your boat from ..........

so ?

you need an out rigger to have both !!!




cont >>>>>>>>

[marshmat]

Umm.... maybe it's just me, but this seems a bit nonsensical? Are you trying to sell us something (if so, what?) or are you just promoting proas in general? What's the deal?

[Chris Ostlind]

Herr Roth,

This is just the teaser to the richly presented proa saga, is it not?

When are you going to show us the pictures?

[Mikey]

Well, get on with it. But who needs a vector fin? Waan Aelon Kein seems to sail just fine with just the thousand years of experience it is built upon

[fritz roth]

.



.... if you just want to ..... paddle around
with your long and easily driven hull >>

and do this safely >

then all you need is an out rigger with a log on one side
like the polynesians have done so for centuries !

but if you just try and surf with this
having the log on the lee ward side

then on the bottom of the wave the log
may just be going on and on ............... down ward !

so ? .... what do you do ?

make your vessel going both ways !
then you can always use the log on the right
meaning the >

>>> wind ward side <<<< !

or the wave ward side .....

then you have a basis for making your sailing vessel
as well

the most ideal configuration ....


cont >>>>>

[Mikey]

All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling

Don't stop though :) I could wait with opening my presents until Christmas when I was a kid so I can wait now.
Just don't understand why :confused:

Mikey

[fritz roth]

.


..... now ...

you take your 8' sabot out on the bay ....

in 15 ktns of wind !

and you will plane along like a charme !
with a wake like a destroyer ....

but as soon as you will have any waves it all
the fun will be over !


but if you take out a 16'x 2' hull with an out riger on
it will be a lot better already !

like a beach cat .... but half the weight ....

and now imagine 24' long x 16" !
no wake to speak of any more ....

and any wave will just be parted with no fuss it all
and your ride will be as smooth as with ....

a boat being twice as long !



cont >>>>

[Mikey]

A poet can survive everything but a misprint
I suppose there were a whole lot of misprints, right? :) :)

Keep them coming, Fritz, keep them coming

Mikey
"I'll be back on Monday"

[fritz roth]

.

....... now .....

if you just want to sail in moderate winds
for a few hours along the way .......

you will have no problems with your polynesian proa !

but if gusty conditions prevail
or you want to eat some lunch in peace .....

with out constantly watching out for your balance !
then you need some devise to do this for you ....

just put your lateral area as well to wind ward
and shape it >>

so it will take all the wind forces
what ever the waves will do to your boat !

then you will have your speed
from your lite and slim vessel

and have the stability as well !

see www.proadesign.com and links for more .....

.

[kach22i]

Without this thread I would never of found out that a proa is. I mean I' ve known since childhood what an outrigger was, just never heard or read the term proa before.

Is there a difference between a proa and an outrigger?

http://www.sailmag.com/boatreviews/HPVisionarry.jpg
http://www.harryproa.com/

http://www.sailingcourse.com/sailing_html.htm
A Proa does not turn by tacking or jibing. It turns by shunting. Throughout this maneuver the passenger hull stays towards the wind. The mast rotates 180 degrees and the sails reverse direction. The back of the boat becomes the front and the boat begins to sail in the opposite direction.
http://www.sailingcourse.com/images/shunting-proa.gif

[Mikey]

I put all my genius into my life; I put only my talent into my works

I suppose that was work and not life :)

Mikey

[Mikey]

It's over, there is no cont >>>>!

Sad, I have a few quotes left, the next one was supposed to be nice too. Well, never mind, here it comes

He lives the poetry that he cannot write. The others write the poetry that they dare not realise

In a way, that could apply to many proa sailors actually. Well almost, just replace dare not with can not.

A proa doesn't need expensive sails, rig, winches and other equipment (loads on sails and rig are low so there is no need for expensive materials or equipment). They are generally very cheap and also easy to build. Most proa sailors have built their proas themselves, many of they would not be out sailing if they had not. A sailing boat is not a cheap hobby. Proas are fast and it's an interesting sailing experience for the price.

Someone building a proa for a few thousand dollars gets to sail much more than he who aims too high and thereby gets nothing... :)

I am not so sure about the Harryproa style proas though, the simplicity is taken away and it's not cheap any longer, it's simply too much money. You really have to be a proa enthusiast to buy something like that.

Mikey

[Mikey]

Difference between proa and outrigger

The outrigger is just the outrigger, it can be a log or a hull, anything that acts as a float.

Proa is a sailing boat that "tacks" by shunting, you wrote it yourself, if --->

The back of the boat becomes the front and the boat begins to sail in the opposite direction

---> then it's a proa.

A pacific proa has the outrigger (ama) to windward and an atlantic proa has it to lee. A proa can have more than one outrigger, few do but it's possible.

Mikey

[nero]

Harryproa not cheap? They use a lot less material than you think. Hull thickness is amazingly thin. Except for his fondness of uni carbon, Rob keeps everything to a minimum. They are designed for an amature to build.

[Mikey]

http://www.harryproa.com/brokerage.htm

According to that link, a new Elementarry ex factory is AUS$25,000

Never sailed one but I bet it is extremely fast, extremely fun to sail, and extremely extreme, but it's also AUS$25,000 for that little boat in the picture.

All proas use little material to build, I don't see the advantage with that the hull is super thin

Mikey

[fritz roth]

.


..... the drawing shown is the ancient way to do it

taking minutes !

see how it is done in the 21 century
in seconds >

www.proatech.org

/change.gif
change2m.gif
change3m.gif



ps >> the first modern out rigger
was the malibu out rigger designed by warren seeman
about 50 years ago

you still can see what they look like
at the yahoo > malibu outrigger group ....


pss >>> a harry is already as expensive as a vfp to build !

just to pay for the plans alone .........

with out building the harry itself !

.

[fritz roth]

.

....... its obvious to see .......

some here are not interessed in discussing new technology !

but just to be guarding
the problems of stone aged concepts


with the help of miss prints
non sense
pre judgements

and endless miss placed poetry

so just let them be changing directions as well !



.

[Mikey]

An idea that is not dangerous is unworthy of being called an idea at all

The idea is good but I would call it dangerous to invest money in it as a business :)

Mikey

[Mikey]

It is a very sad thing that nowadays there is so little useless information

Not even this thread is useless, it's informative, ask Kach22i

Fritz, you were the one starting the poetry stuff... :P

I admire first of all the simplicity of (most) proas and secondly how fast and well you can make them sail, spending very little resources. If there is a way to improve them and still be able to call them simple, then I want to know. A proa with 3 sails... I don't know.

Mikey
I don't have to change direction about proas...
... but I do have to change direction when I "tack", if I sail one...

[fritz roth]

.

........ actually .........

you need no 3 sails to have a vfp !

but why in heavens ?
would any one want to be left with a single sail ?

where you have a much longer time to spend changing directions !

where you can not turn on the spot with !
when manuvering in crowted harbors
anchoring ....

where you have not the perfect selfs steering ?

so ........ why not have them ?

they are not much more to do
then one big one .........


ps ..... if I knew .........

this tread wouldnt be of some ones use
I would not write them up !

but about > the useless information < ?

I cant subcribe to !

and that this world is to set in its track
to make an ideal solution a viable bussiness proposition >

this I cant either ........
because this planet can do what ever it wants to >

I am surely not stupid enough to compete with !


pss ..... thanks for the compliment ...........

I never though of my writing as poetry before !




.

[Chris Ostlind]

.

........ actually .........


I never though of my writing as poetry before !




Don't get all misty on us, Fritz. I think the poetry reference is more about the fact that your written stuff is so free associative when compared to what most people call normal, written communication. There's a fairly big jump to poetry from there.

What I want to know is this... do you speak in this fashion as well?

[fritz roth]

.


......... I thought ..........

this was a design forum !

where people discuss technical aspects of what ever boat type
they may be talking about ????







ps ..... I talk like any other .........
and write like any other human !

the difference seems to be in the content !


.

[Mikey]

I was actually enjoying the opportunity to post Oscar Wilde quotes... but the style was a bit irritating, not as bad as in the proa_file community though where Herr Roth was placed on moderated posts today

*************
FYI to the Proa_file community: I have placed Fritz Roth on moderated
posts. He is still a member of this group, and may still post
messages. His messages will be reviewed for appropriate content, and
inappropriate content may be edited out. This is his choice, as he has
repeatedly ignored my requests to moderate/tone down his posts
himself. He may be returned to regular posting status when he
demonstrates that he will moderate his own conduct on this forum.

It is my sincere desire that every member feels safe in posting their
opinions and questions without fear of ridicule and personal attack. I
will continue to moderate this group to that end. Certainly if anyone
feels I am doing this in an unfair fashion, he or she may bring this
to my attention, to the group owner, or to the entire Proa_file community.

Thank you and have a great day,
Marc Ellsworth
Moderator
*************

[fritz roth]

.

......... for giving me the opportunity to make this public >>>>


the > propaganda file < has no interest in any technical discussions !
just as no one on this planet has the courage to do any thing right !

and just as the catastrophies here
is only making propaganda

on what they have been told before ...........



>>> I am of cource no longer a member of the > propaganda file < group ! <<<






I was actually enjoying the opportunity to post Oscar Wilde quotes... but the style was a bit irritating, not as bad as in the proa_file community though where Herr Roth was placed on moderated posts today

*************
FYI to the Proa_file community: I have placed Fritz Roth on moderated
posts. He is still a member of this group, and may still post
messages. His messages will be reviewed for appropriate content, and
inappropriate content may be edited out. This is his choice, as he has
repeatedly ignored my requests to moderate/tone down his posts
himself. He may be returned to regular posting status when he
demonstrates that he will moderate his own conduct on this forum.

It is my sincere desire that every member feels safe in posting their
opinions and questions without fear of ridicule and personal attack. I
will continue to moderate this group to that end. Certainly if anyone
feels I am doing this in an unfair fashion, he or she may bring this
to my attention, to the group owner, or to the entire Proa_file community.

Thank you and have a great day,
Marc Ellsworth
Moderator
*************

[proabum]

Here's what we have done to add stability and it works fine. We can stand, walk around. The picture shows the version with our electric motor, but we can put a sail on it when we are going where there is wind. Believe me, some lakes in western NC, don't have much wind.

[messabout]

Fritz must surely be smoking 'funny' cigarettes.

[proabum]

I'm sorry, I'm not much good at this......I thought I was replying to a thread concerning stability. Again, I'm sorry..........BTW, what's a "funny cigarette"?

[proabum]

Ol' Fritz sounds like that guy on Pirates of the Caribean........are you a pirate Fritz? The thing about sailing a proa is the simplicity of it. I have seen them out in the ocean, between islands in the South Pacific, where you couldn't see land anywhere, yet they seem to do quite well. Why complicate the thing by adding multiple sails. In close proximity to other craft, drop the sail and pick up the paddle!

[rob denney]

G'day,

Extremely everything you say, including pricey. The reason for this is we build them as one offs. If Hobie were to build a one off Hobie 20, it would cost a lot more. If we were to build thousands, the cost would be the same as a Hobie. Amateur built, they are very cheap. There is a $US6,000 Elementarry preparing to sail round Aus this summer. The really cheap proas (construction ply and housepaint hulls, 4 x 2 planks for the beams and tarpaulin sails) seldom further offshore then their owners can swim.

The Elementarry in the photo has had a few changes, and currently only has one of the rigs, mounted in the middle. It is a test bed for ideas for my solo Transpac 50 footer, currently being built for launch in October. http://www.harryproa.com/SoloTranspac/Solitarry1.htm

There is a video of a heavy (3 tons) cruising 50' harryproa at windspeed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA

The cost of Harryproas is low compared to cats of similar space and/or performance for a number of reasons.
Simple to build hull shapes and beams,
Simple rigs, \
Half the weight, so half the materials of a similar size cat, and plans which allow the builder to build almost everything hinself.

Regards,

Rob Denney
www.harryproa.com

http://www.harryproa.com/brokerage.htm

According to that link, a new Elementarry ex factory is AUS$25,000

Never sailed one but I bet it is extremely fast, extremely fun to sail, and extremely extreme, but it's also AUS$25,000 for that little boat in the picture.

All proas use little material to build, I don't see the advantage with that the hull is super thin

Mikey

[messabout]

Aw come on Proabum. Every one knows that a funny cig is one made with cannabis or some other substance that tends to induce silliness..

[fritz roth]

.

........ all the irrelevant remarks here .......

I will just for now iqnore
because if any one has nothing better do to >

> its a waste of time to answer <


but at > http://www.proadesign.com
a couple of new developments have come about since >

>> first > a 96' >> 30 ktn tourist vfp
for up to 30 passenger >

for a tourist operator in central america !

>> second > a 8' boa x 27' loa hinged vf proa !
you can just as a hobie launch and trailor
but having two bunks and a lot more capability
in bad weather !

for more just visit the links on the site ........



.

[proabum]

Oh, yeah, I forgot.......I'm a retired cop and sometimes I forget:-). I saw some designs that Fritz Roth did, on a website, and he seems very compitent and outside the box. I respect that, even if he stretches other envelopes inhis written stuff. Besides the money career as a criminal investigator, I have always been an artist and look at proas as a historical piece of living art and look forward to the day when my rigging and outfitting will be finished so I can paint what I want on the sails and bow.

I have looked at several sail types and believe I will go with a modified bat wing, single sail. Being new at sailing, I don't want to complicate my learning curve with multiple wind planes to deal with.

Some time ago, I saw where a guy was experimenting with an inverted wing design where the lift capability of an air craft wing was directed to pull a vessel. Have you seen any proa types with this wing configuration?

[proabum]

I don't want to swap spit with you, but I think you are a genius.......a forward thinking individual who just articulates a little differently.........and it is kind of like poetry!

[Chris Ostlind]

I don't want to swap spit with you, but I think you are a genius.......a forward thinking individual who just articulates a little differently.........and it is kind of like poetry!

Here's a little something you may enjoy, then, if you think Fritz is borderline.
The illustration attached below is a sailing Travel Canoe by Heinz-Juergen Sass from Sweden waaaay back in 1987. In the drawing, you can clearly see that Mr. Sass has employed a very nice foil to stabilize his craft while out on the water under sail.

Does the idea look familiar to you?

Before Fritz nabbed the concept out of thin air, some folks took to calling the form a Bruce foil. You can read about that variant here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_foil You can see that the Bruce foil was around well before Mr. Roth appeared as a person interested in boat design.

Put it all together and Voila!... the vector fin proa. Is it new and significant? I'm sorry to say that it it is neither.

Oooops! I had forgotten to include the image when I first posted the response. Here it is.

[fritz roth]

.


........ well ........... here we have >

the same old " borderline syndrom "
as all the others .......



first of all >>

take a look at the foil !
its a simple straight plate
not able to stabilize a craft automatically

in any sea way !


then its the usual one way craft !
not able to have an analog computer type fin >

> as the vfp <

because only on a two way vessel
can you have an angled fin >
or a hinged fin >

adjusting its force to the vector of the wind and wave forces !

> on both directions <


soooo ?

who is here making propaganda ................. ?

for the never ending stone age !








Here's a little something you may enjoy, then, if you think Fritz is borderline.
The illustration attached below is a sailing Travel Canoe by Heinz-Juergen Sass from Sweden waaaay back in 1987. In the drawing, you can clearly see that Mr. Sass has employed a very nice foil to stabilize his craft while out on the water under sail.

Does the idea look familiar to you?

Before Fritz nabbed the concept out of thin air, some folks took to calling the form a Bruce foil. You can read about that variant here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_foil You can see that the Bruce foil was around well before Mr. Roth appeared as a person interested in boat design.

Put it all together and Voila!... the vector fin proa. Is it new and significant? I'm sorry to say that it it is neither.

Oooops! I had forgotten to include the image when I first posted the response. Here it is.

[fritz roth]

.


...... this " moderator " below >

being such an enslaved mind !
can not differentiate between who is attacking !

and who is simply defending him self
from all the hideuos propaganda
being put forth by most every one >>>
on his propaganda file ......

meaning > he < is the problem !

not some one
not cherishing the insults

to any inteligent mind ......




ps ....... I just noticed .....

there are some here ...... not inclined to defame !
maybe even appreciate some new solutions !



.

I was actually enjoying the opportunity to post Oscar Wilde quotes... but the style was a bit irritating, not as bad as in the proa_file community though where Herr Roth was placed on moderated posts today

*************
FYI to the Proa_file community: I have placed Fritz Roth on moderated
posts. He is still a member of this group, and may still post
messages. His messages will be reviewed for appropriate content, and
inappropriate content may be edited out. This is his choice, as he has
repeatedly ignored my requests to moderate/tone down his posts
himself. He may be returned to regular posting status when he
demonstrates that he will moderate his own conduct on this forum.

It is my sincere desire that every member feels safe in posting their
opinions and questions without fear of ridicule and personal attack. I
will continue to moderate this group to that end. Certainly if anyone
feels I am doing this in an unfair fashion, he or she may bring this
to my attention, to the group owner, or to the entire Proa_file community.

Thank you and have a great day,
Marc Ellsworth
Moderator
*************

[fritz roth]

.



good day to all honest people !





G'day,

Extremely everything you say, including pricey.



.......... really now !




The reason for this is we build them as one offs. If Hobie were to build a one off Hobie 20, it would cost a lot more. If we were to build thousands, the cost would be the same as a Hobie. Amateur built, they are very cheap.




..... how can they be ?

if the design is so critical >>> they need >
> carbon fibers < to hold together .......

or cant structurally be trusted
to return to australia from south africa ?




There is a $US6,000 Elementarry preparing to sail round Aus this summer. The really cheap proas (construction ply and housepaint hulls, 4 x 2 planks for the beams and tarpaulin sails) seldom further offshore then their owners can swim.



......... how do you do this rob ?

the elementary plan costs as much >
as building a whole vfp in materials !

of the same lenght .........




The Elementarry in the photo has had a few changes, and currently only has one of the rigs, mounted in the middle. It is a test bed for ideas for my solo Transpac 50 footer, currently being built for launch in October. http://www.harryproa.com/SoloTranspac/Solitarry1.htm

There is a video of a heavy (3 tons) cruising 50' harryproa at windspeed at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA

The cost of Harryproas is low compared to cats of similar space and/or performance for a number of reasons.
Simple to build hull shapes and beams,
Simple rigs, \
Half the weight, so half the materials of a similar size cat, and plans which allow the builder to build almost everything hinself.




........ the harry proa design >>>
has no principle advantage in weight to a cat .........

contrary to the vfp !

so a harry designer is just saving on structural safety !
or needing carbon fibers to hold together ........


but on a vfp > its the design >
making less displacement possible !

meaning less $ .........





Regards,

Rob Denney
www.harryproa.com

[Chris Ostlind]

It must be tough
standing there while

the fury> of the entire world blows

your face
swept clean and you

remain doing battle

with but the simple

elegant tool

The VECTOR FIN of magificent proportions



Yes, being the only one who believes is a mighty difficult place in this big bad world of ours. Have you presented your uber technik for proas to the German Multihulls discussion forum? Are you being received well there? And what happened to your Don Q/Sancho Panza act with Don Elliott? Did you guys slay all the windmills in sight?

Come on Fritz. Knock-off the weirdo Euro-guy routine and start talking something like a normal guy.

[proabum]

Those folks that act and talk like they know everything are very annoying to those of us that truly do!

[messabout]

Chris; I too had some thought that related this thread to Cervantes tale.

But maybe we had ought to cut this guy some slack. He seems truly convinced that he has discovered/invented something new or better. It is difficult to relinquish a strongly held opinion even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Once, in my youth, I invented the wheel and I was devastated to learn that someone else had already done so. Not only that but those damnable Firestone and Dunlop people had put tires on it. Imagine how disappointing it was to have ones' crowning achievment poo-poohed.

So salty old curmudgeons like you and me can be generous by showing Fritz some sympathy, maybe even encouragement. He needs both.

[fritz roth]

It must be tough
standing there while

the fury> of the entire world blows



..... how boreing !



your face
swept clean





........ how right you are !




and you

remain doing battle




........ battle ?

where is the enemy ?




with but the simple

elegant tool

The VECTOR FIN of magificent proportions




......... well ........

I didnt say any thing about the ultimate proportions !

in fact I am still working on finding better ways .........
for each application .........

seen the 8' wide trailor version ?





Yes, being the only one who believes is a mighty difficult place in this big bad world of ours.




........ bad world ?

I am finding not a one
to even being able to discuss any thing !

> having no competion it all <

its like you are in pre historic times seeing some guy there
trying to find ways to stabilize his hull >

when in fact >
hunderds of generations later >

homo sapiens then has figured out

> how to do it <





Have you presented your uber technik for proas to the German Multihulls discussion forum?




........ yes !

and one even is testing the principle extensively with models !
type in > mike stolle leipzig vfp <

but he dis likes homo sapiens
because they are not getting drunk
every other day ....

you know how western > un < civilization ....... is !




Are you being received well there?




.......... and some others there !

are really enticed with my ideas
but they object to me not writting
as their > deutsch lehrer < told them to !

you know how they are > following the leader !




And what happened to your Don Q/Sancho Panza act with Don Elliott?




........ we run over them ...........
till no one would even say a word any more !

just a few week ago he run another series
like a vfp introduction >>>

at yahoo groups smallboats >

you can as well >

read the texts of the vfp building manual
from > nov 05 > feb 06




Did you guys slay all the windmills in sight?




........ not a one left !




Come on Fritz. Knock-off the weirdo Euro-guy routine and start talking something like a normal guy.




........ I have no intention to getting imbezile as well !

I will not even buy a windows vista
or a 3 ghz pc

because I will principly not compete
with all the borderline cases an the planet .............



.

[fritz roth]

Those folks that act and talk like they know everything are very annoying to those of us that truly do!



......... you are quite right !

you know ever thing about >

>>>> pre historic times <<<<



.

[fritz roth]

Chris; I too had some thought that related this thread to Cervantes tale.

But maybe we had ought to cut this guy some slack. He seems truly convinced that he has discovered/invented something new or better. It is difficult to relinquish a strongly held opinion even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Once, in my youth, I invented the wheel and I was devastated to learn that someone else had already done so. Not only that but those damnable Firestone and Dunlop people had put tires on it. Imagine how disappointing it was to have ones' crowning achievment poo-poohed.

So salty old curmudgeons like you and me can be generous by showing Fritz some sympathy, maybe even encouragement. He needs both.




........ I would recommend ....
having some sympathy for your selfs !

because one day .......

>>>> some vfp will jet by you <<<<

and you .... will not even know what it was .........




.

[rob denney]

G'day,

Fritz and I have had this discussion on a number of lists and chat groups. He generally leaves with his knickers in a twist, or is thrown off. For the record, I think the vfp is a solution to stopping proas capsizing, but is not as good a solution, either structurally or in terms of performance or layout as having the crew and accommodation weight in the windward hull. It is not a Bruce Foil, as it relies on forward speed to generate downwards force, whereas a BF relies on leeway.

I think the building method, rig and accommodation on Fritz' boats is rubbish, for reasons which I will go into if anyone other than Fritz wishes me too. Please have a look at his building instructions and drawings first and then ask pertinent questions.

Specific answers to Fritz's comments follow. Conversations with Fritz rarely achieve anything, so after this reply I will be very selective about which of his answers I reply to. Any one who wants more detail, please ask.

rob
Extremely everything you say, including pricey.

The reason for this is we build them as one offs. If Hobie were to build a one off Hobie 20, it would cost a lot more. If we were to build thousands, the cost would be the same as a Hobie. Amateur built, they are very cheap.

Fritz
..... how can they be ?

if the design is so critical >>> they need >
> carbon fibers < to hold together .......

or cant structurally be trusted
to return to australia from south africa ?

Elementarry is a 25' beach proa, not an ocean voyager. The carbon allows a lighter boat. It could be built in cheap or rubbish materials to save money, at added weight. The reverse of this applies to Fritz's .

Fritz
the elementary plan costs as much >
as building a whole vfp in materials !

of the same lenght .........

Rob
Plans are $Aus1,000/$US800. 5 sets have been sold. One small vfp has been built, nobody saw it or sailed it, apart from Fritz, who made some extreme claims about it which nobody verified. The pictures of the boat in a F8 looked like a F4. The claims of F12 in Gibralter Bay were rubbished by the Gib met office. Nobody weighed it, nobody raced or even sailed against it. Repeated requests by me and others to look at it have been refused, for increasingly inane reasons.

Maybe a 25' vfp could be built for $1,000, if you scavenged enough materials. It would be nowhere near the quality of the cheaply built Elementarry, much less the professionally built one.

Fritz....... the harry proa design >>>
has no principle advantage in weight to a cat .........

Rob
This is nonsense. The 15m in the video weighs 3 tonnes/tons. The sports version 2.5. A cat of similar space would weigh and cost double this and not perform as well.

F contrary to the vfp !
R Until one is built, we will never know.

F but on a vfp > its the design >
making less displacement possible !
meaning less $ .........

R This is absurd. A vfp with usable accommodation anywhere near a Harry has never been designed, much less built. There is nothing in the design which implies it will be lighter, and many things which imply it will be heavier.

Proabum. You may be right about Fritz. You are not the only one who thinks he is a genius with a communication problem. Don Eliot (arguably an even bigger clown), thinks so too. However, a sail on a few other boats, maybe some experience building one will soon put you off the idea. If it doesn't, please build one, so at least we can find out how they perform, and what they actually cost and weigh. I do suggest that you get some form of guarantee from Fritz that it will cost you $US800 before you start, if this is the basis for your purchase.

regards,

Rob
www.harryproa.com

[naturewaterboy]

Hello from Key Largo USA! I just found this thread...can I ask a question? Me and my skinny blonde girlfriend (weak arms but lots of other good assets) would like to build a proa, one optomized for use in the Florida Bay. Florida Bay is thousands of square miles of shallow (mostly one fathom or less) water with numerous flats and mangrove islands.

Can everyone suggest what plans I can buy to built a proa that will:

-be good for day use

-shallow draft, less than 2 ft. - less than one ft. would be really sweet

-have a small cabin for a potty (some girly girls must have), a place to wait out the weather, maybe enough room to lay down (to, how should I say, you know)

-be light weight so that it can be pulled up onto a beach

-able to be stored in a garage occasionally (in case of a hurricane)

Any designs out there fit this description? Anyone out there built one of these?

[fritz roth]

Hello from Key Largo USA! I just found this thread...can I ask a question? Me and my skinny blonde girlfriend (weak arms but lots of other good assets) would like to build a proa, one optomized for use in the Florida Bay. Florida Bay is thousands of square miles of shallow (mostly one fathom or less) water with numerous flats and mangrove islands.

Can everyone suggest what plans I can buy to built a proa that will:

-be good for day use

-shallow draft, less than 2 ft. - less than one ft. would be really sweet

-have a small cabin for a potty (some girly girls must have), a place to wait out the weather, maybe enough room to lay down (to, how should I say, you know)

-be light weight so that it can be pulled up onto a beach

-able to be stored in a garage occasionally (in case of a hurricane)

Any designs out there fit this description? Anyone out there built one of these?



....... have you checked out the yahoo proadesign group ?

there is a hinged vector fin proa shown under " files "
having 6" of draft !

with out the fin ......
and this can just slide onto the beach or over a sand bar .........

or be pulled up completly !





.

[fritz roth]

G'day,

Fritz and I have had this discussion on a number of lists and chat groups.




xxxx I know rob is a hardy marketing type .........




He generally leaves with his knickers in a twist,




xxxxxxx ?????





or is thrown off.




xxxxx this happens to rob all the time !





For the record, I think the vfp is a solution to stopping proas capsizing, but is not as good a solution, either structurally or in terms of performance or layout as having the crew and accommodation weight in the windward hull.





xxxxxxx that is just because this population
is still fixed into pre historic times

>>> onto the weight principle !

every thing higher is just too much for them ........




It is not a Bruce Foil, as it relies on forward speed to generate downwards force, whereas a BF relies on leeway.




xxxx a fixed > flat plate cant possibly be doing any " thinking " for it self
as a vf can ......





I think the building method, rig and accommodation on Fritz' boats is rubbish,




xxxxxxx where are the arguments here ?

solid facts !

like a harry is just an optimized cat athwards ships !

so it has some advandage on going to wind ward
in just the right conditions over a cat

> not a vfp <

but any cat build to the same scantlings >

will be faster down wind
because it is optimized for going one way !

and having the same weight dragging .........

contrary to the vfp >
having only one hull !



for reasons which I will go into if anyone other than Fritz wishes me too.




xxxxx and I think >

rob is a marketing instrument for carbon fiber companies !





Please have a look at his building instructions and drawings first and then ask pertinent questions.





xxxxx and check out an independant authors booklet on building the vfp >>>
don elliot of yahoo smallboats group !




Specific answers to Fritz's comments follow. Conversations with Fritz rarely achieve anything,





xxxxx how could a marketing instrument ?

being un able to comprehend any higher principle
then brutal weight technics

discuss any thing in real time ............





so after this reply I will be very selective about which of his answers I reply to. Any one who wants more detail, please ask.




xxxxx any more propaganda ?






rob
Extremely everything you say, including pricey.

The reason for this is we build them as one offs. If Hobie were to build a one off Hobie 20, it would cost a lot more. If we were to build thousands, the cost would be the same as a Hobie. Amateur built, they are very cheap.

Fritz
..... how can they be ?

if the design is so critical >>> they need >
> carbon fibers < to hold together .......

or cant structurally be trusted
to return to australia from south africa ?

Elementarry is a 25' beach proa, not an ocean voyager. The carbon allows a lighter boat. It could be built in cheap or rubbish materials to save money, at added weight. The reverse of this applies to Fritz's .




xxxxxxxxxx rob is always forgetting the shock loads !

run onto a beach full speed with a carbon fiber boat
and it snaps because of the twisting stress
and no give !

> like it happens all the time
with carbon fiber sail board masts <

but a glas bridge deck gives !
and survives ........





Fritz
the elementary plan costs as much >
as building a whole vfp in materials !

of the same lenght .........

Rob
Plans are $Aus1,000/$US800. 5 sets have been sold. One small vfp has been built,




xxxxxxx the principle of the vfp is self evident to any advanced mind !
and as long as this population is not able .........

what can I do ?





nobody saw it or sailed it, apart from Fritz, who made some extreme claims about it which nobody verified. The pictures of the boat in a F8 looked like a F4.




xxxxxx have any of you
ever heard of a wind gratient ?

especially over a lake being surounded
with a lot of scrubs and trees ..........





The claims of F12 in Gibralter Bay were rubbished by the Gib met office.





xxxxxxx the gib met office ....

has no inclination of damaging the tourist bussiness there >
so they will not have the weather station data published from marina bay !
but just from the protected met station ..........

any more questions ?




Nobody weighed it, nobody raced or even sailed against it. Repeated requests by me and others to look at it have been refused, for increasingly inane reasons.




xxxx any one not capable of comprehending any thing more
then neatherthaler weight principles

I will not want do meet any where ..........

actually just discussing with such is dis tast full !





Maybe a 25' vfp could be built for $1,000, if you scavenged enough materials. It would be nowhere near the quality of the cheaply built Elementarry, much less the professionally built one.





xxxxx fact >>> glas is just as good as carbon for a small beach boat !
because its flexibility compensates for the higher strenght of the carbon >

so why use carbon there ?





Fritz....... the harry proa design >>>
has no principle advantage in weight to a cat .........

Rob
This is nonsense. The 15m in the video weighs 3 tonnes/tons. The sports version 2.5. A cat of similar space would weigh and cost double this and not perform as well.




xxxxxx this is not a scientific argument
but involves simple marketing propaganda !





F contrary to the vfp !
R Until one is built, we will never know.




xxxxxx modern man can similate going to the moon >

so why can it not comprehend
that a vfp has an advandage in weight >

because it has only one hull !
and a lateral area doubling as a stabilizing entity !

there for having much less structural needs
meaning >>> one <<< hull less >

> and no fighting of two hulls with each other <

like if you beach a craft >>> one hull being jaulted up wards

>>> while your harry wind ward hull has all the weight as inertia <<<<<

meaning the same old problem as you have on a cat !




F but on a vfp > its the design >
making less displacement possible !
meaning less $ .........

R This is absurd. A vfp with usable accommodation anywhere near a Harry has never been designed, much less built.




xxxx and a 30 passenger tourist boat coming up ?

I can see this becoming the standard of the future
as well as a sail ferry service

> where wind conditions are reliable <





There is nothing in the design which implies it will be lighter, and many things which imply it will be heavier.




xxxx simple marketing talk .......

any homo sapiens can see !





Proabum. You may be right about Fritz. You are not the only one who thinks he is a genius with a communication problem. Don Eliot (arguably an even bigger clown),




xxxxx as rob ?

him self being just able to defame >
throwing around with " clowns and rubbish "

with out argueing scientically .....

> with technically valid facts <




thinks so too. However, a sail on a few other boats, maybe some experience building one will soon put you off the idea.




........ as soon as we have just one more homo sapiens on this planet !

that will be able to build one more ........





If it doesn't, please build one, so at least we can find out how they perform, and what they actually cost and weigh. I do suggest that you get some form of guarantee from Fritz that it will cost you $US800 before you start, if this is the basis for your purchase.




xxxxx why should it be more ?

if I dont have any contract with the carbon fiber ............

company !




regards,

Rob
www.harryproa.com


xxxxxxx and just one hull to build !

>>>> half the sail area to go as fast <<<<




.

[rob denney]

Hello from Key Largo USA! I just found this thread...can I ask a question? Me and my skinny blonde girlfriend (weak arms but lots of other good assets) would like to build a proa, one optomized for use in the Florida Bay. Florida Bay is thousands of square miles of shallow (mostly one fathom or less) water with numerous flats and mangrove islands.

Can everyone suggest what plans I can buy to built a proa that will:

-be good for day use

-shallow draft, less than 2 ft. - less than one ft. would be really sweet

-have a small cabin for a potty (some girly girls must have), a place to wait out the weather, maybe enough room to lay down (to, how should I say, you know)

-be light weight so that it can be pulled up onto a beach

-able to be stored in a garage occasionally (in case of a hurricane)

Any designs out there fit this description? Anyone out there built one of these?

G'day,
You could have a look at Elementarry http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry.htm Using both rudders, it would be possible to sail it with only 12" draft. The camping version gives plenty of space for the toilet and a 6' wide double bed. It is light enough to pull up the beach, although you will need either fenders for rollers or to empty out the cruising gear if you want to get it a long way up the beach. It comes apart to 8' wide for trailering, and my racing version can be ready for sailing 20 minutes after arriving at the ramp.

There has only been one camper built so far, but the owner has done a couple of overnight coastal sails and is planning a trip round Australia this summer. He is pretty happy with the handling and speed. If you want more information go to http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry.htm and look through the "Messages" for those from Doug Haines, or ask him any questions on the forum. There is also a guy named Carlos who sails his own design in Florida.

There are a couple of other proas to look at (Google Mbuli and Gary Dierking). Although they don't fulfill your most important requirement, this could easily be addressed with a deck tent.

Any questions, please let me know.

regards,

Rob

[Trevlyns]

I must say I’m intrigued by the way this thread is developing. ;)

I’ve only recently come to study proas in depth and am designing one myself. This thread alone has sent me off in various directions searching ever deeper for more answers.

I think there is definitely merit in what both Fritz and Rob have to say. Healthy disagreement stimulates interest but I don’t think just brushing off Rob as a marketing man holds water. I’ve been in contact with Rob a couple of times about technical issues and he has always been most obliging and helpful.

Similarly, Fritz has a message too but because he does not present it in a “normal” fashion is no reason to cast doubt on his abilities.

I say let’s keep the arguments coming, but let’s not go over the heads or below the belt. That way we could all learn a thing or two. :p

[naturewaterboy]

Thanks for the info. I did join the Yahoo group on proas, and visited the harry proa website briefly. I'm going back to view the harry site again. Any estimate on build time for the various models out there?

[fritz roth]

.



...... can any one ?

saying > ??? a multi having 2 hulls >
is only being as heavy as a vector fin proa >

having only one hull ! ???


>>> and <<<

a boat having the only accomodation in his
>>> short <<< hull

is having >>> more <<< accomodations ! ?
then in a long hull ! ?

or even in >> both << hulls of a catamaran ! ?


>>> and a bridge deck <<<

having all this twisting to confront
for having to hold two hulls together !
in a seaway >>

is not heavier ???
as one having just a fin on his end !


and finnally
saying my plans are rxxxxx
when he hasnt been even seeing one
with his own eyes !

just the decade old general previews
being published at my sites ......


can any one ?
saying all this rxxxx >>>

be telling the truth ?



ps >> the ocean is ....
like a mountainous region most of the times !

and if you set a regular chair on a rocky ground
it most likely will wip around there !

and if you sit on it with all your might !
it will break >

>>> try it <<<


so ..... a regular multi is a 4 legged chair
snaping around an the mountainous sea !

>> just open your eyes ones <<

a harry has the hind legs closer
then the front .........

but it has more weight at the back
so it is about the same problem configuration ........


contrary to all this
a vfp is a >>> 3 <<< legged chair !

having just one hull being like 2 legs
and a single leg >>> the fin !

and a 3 legged chair will be sitting
with out wiping there on any thing !

no breaking if you sit on it with all your might !


just like the vfp being comfortable in any thing .......

no wipping > no stress ........

meaning a lot less weight !
and the same speed at half the sail area ...........



.

[fritz roth]

.


......... the best " cabin " .............

is a gigantic tent on your bridge deck !
when anchoring ............

because it doesnt fould your sailing preformance >
and its high up >
to really be able to look around !

an it can be bigger then any thing
you could possibly be dreaming of in a cabin ..........





Hello from Key Largo USA! I just found this thread...can I ask a question? Me and my skinny blonde girlfriend (weak arms but lots of other good assets) would like to build a proa, one optomized for use in the Florida Bay. Florida Bay is thousands of square miles of shallow (mostly one fathom or less) water with numerous flats and mangrove islands.

Can everyone suggest what plans I can buy to built a proa that will:

-be good for day use

-shallow draft, less than 2 ft. - less than one ft. would be really sweet

-have a small cabin for a potty (some girly girls must have), a place to wait out the weather, maybe enough room to lay down (to, how should I say, you know)

-be light weight so that it can be pulled up onto a beach

-able to be stored in a garage occasionally (in case of a hurricane)

Any designs out there fit this description? Anyone out there built one of these?

[melong]

Forsooth
why must thou
post in haiku

Tis not artistic
merely foolish
and pretentious

Thou lookest
muchly like one
that tosseth.:P

[rob denney]

Thanks for the info. I did join the Yahoo group on proas, and visited the harry proa website briefly. I'm going back to view the harry site again. Any estimate on build time for the various models out there?

G'day,

Build time is a difficult subject. I built a 35 footer in 500 hours, but it was pretty rough http://www.harryproa.com/Newsletters/news2_hg2.htm. I then had a very disgruntled customer who was still on the fiorst hull after 500 hours. It also depends on how much you do yourself. We supply the plans for you to build mast, boom and beams and most of the fittings, but you could also buy these. The 50 footers ready to cruise take professional builders about 4,000 hours. Not sure how long Doug took to build his Elementarry, but it was not long.

Sorry I can't be more specific, but there are just too many imponderables.

Regards,

rob

[terhohalme]

As a guideline:
Building time is approximately one hour per one kilogram of boat.
Building cost is $10 to $15 per one kilogram of boat.

These are for "low tech" boats.

Terho

[messabout]

Thank you Melong. You have described the originators text with style, art, and class.

[fritz roth]

.


..... I have been ......

hearing people say >
you cant build a vfp for a $ 1000 !

so here I will start a series of ideas
to make it possible >>>>

starting with your epoxy !

you mix into on every batch >>> glas bubbles !
to lighten and strengthen the out come >

like when filling in glas cloth
you mix into enough glas bubbles >>

to make the mixture roll even more easily
into the cloth !

being then lighter at the end
and costing less as well ......

and you will lay onto the soaked layer of cloth
the next and the next !

till you have all the resin mixture soaked up !

needing no vacum technic
nor having any of your mixture wasted !

and if you need a patty >
you mix into more glas bubbles

to have a very lite mix
and again saving money !

you have to be carefull
not to get too many glas bubbles into >

but with the help of a digital kitchen scale
you can do it after trying it out some .....

then of cource >
you will not get into your car >
and buy a quart of epoxy at your neighborhood store !

but are buying 10 gal of it at a distribitor !
you have been checking out on the net ....

and you know will sell > a good epoxy system <


all in all
you can save 90% of the cost of your epoxy
if you follow this inteligent proceedure !


.

[fritz roth]

.


....... now ...........

are you all aggreeing with me fully ?

or are you not able to comprehend what I said ?

maybe you are having alterior intentions ?

or all of them ?





.



...... can any one ?

saying > ??? a multi having 2 hulls >
is only being as heavy as a vector fin proa >

having only one hull ! ???


>>> and <<<

a boat having the only accomodation in his
>>> short <<< hull

is having >>> more <<< accomodations ! ?
then in a long hull ! ?

or even in >> both << hulls of a catamaran ! ?


>>> and a bridge deck <<<

having all this twisting to confront
for having to hold two hulls together !
in a seaway >>

is not heavier ???
as one having just a fin on his end !


and finnally
saying my plans are rxxxxx
when he hasnt been even seeing one
with his own eyes !

just the decade old general previews
being published at my sites ......


can any one ?
saying all this rxxxx >>>

be telling the truth ?



ps >> the ocean is ....
like a mountainous region most of the times !

and if you set a regular chair on a rocky ground
it most likely will wip around there !

and if you sit on it with all your might !
it will break >

>>> try it <<<


so ..... a regular multi is a 4 legged chair
snaping around an the mountainous sea !

>> just open your eyes ones <<

a harry has the hind legs closer
then the front .........

but it has more weight at the back
so it is about the same problem configuration ........


contrary to all this
a vfp is a >>> 3 <<< legged chair !

having just one hull being like 2 legs
and a single leg >>> the fin !

and a 3 legged chair will be sitting
with out wiping there on any thing !

no breaking if you sit on it with all your might !


just like the vfp being comfortable in any thing .......

no wipping > no stress ........

meaning a lot less weight !
and the same speed at half the sail area ...........



.

[marshmat]

Hi Fritz,
I must admit, the vector fin concept is intriguing, and probably worthy of further study.
I do wish that you could write in sentences and paragraphs on here. It would make it a lot easier to understand what you're trying to say.
As far as mixing microballoons in to reduce epoxy use- I should caution anyone thinking of doing this, that using such a blend to wet out fibreglass is substantially weaker than laminating with epoxy alone, to the point where the structural integrity of the craft may be compromised. Screwing with laminate design requires a very solid understanding of how each component works and why; simple substitutions rarely work well.

[Doug Lord]

Check this out:
Hydrovisions Innovative High-Performance Watercraft Design
Address:http://hydrovisions.com/ Changed:5:55 PM on Friday, May 5, 2006
-----
The foil is manualy controlled to allow it to pull down or lift up to create righting moment.
Be sure to see the excellent illustrations under "How it works" and the "Photo Gallery".
Brilliant idea!

[rob denney]

Hi Fritz,
I must admit, the vector fin concept is intriguing, and probably worthy of further study.
I do wish that you could write in sentences and paragraphs on here. It would make it a lot easier to understand what you're trying to say.
As far as mixing microballoons in to reduce epoxy use- I should caution anyone thinking of doing this, that using such a blend to wet out fibreglass is substantially weaker than laminating with epoxy alone, to the point where the structural integrity of the craft may be compromised. Screwing with laminate design requires a very solid understanding of how each component works and why; simple substitutions rarely work well.

G'day,

Not just weaker, but no lighter. The ampount of resin required to wet out fibreglass and the wood under it is the same, whether the resin has glass balls in it or not. Adding the balls to the resin during wet out just makes it harder to wet the cloth and may result in their not being enough resin to wet the timber. Making a much stiffer bog afterwards and filling the weave will result in less resin use overall, an easier job and a better laminate, which is why every boatbuilder in the world does it this way.

10 gallons of epoxy and hardener at the 40 gallon price from Shell, who produce it, is $Aus266. A 5 kg bag of glass balloons at the 100 kg price from the producers is $AUS40. Total so far is $306, assuming you know someone who is in the business and can get you these materials at cost. This is 30% of Fritz's total spend of $AUS1,000. If you can get it cheaper than this, Fritz, please let us know the web page of your source.

Look forward to more cost saving techniques and quantities of materials required.

regards,

Rob

[fritz roth]

.



...... of cource you need carbon fibers ......

never !

because glas is more flexing
meaning more for giving !

so you can save the much higher cost
of carbon fibers

and of cource you dont buy your glas cloth
by the yard !

but get a whole roll !
close to a 100#

and if you dont use all
you can use in a hunderd years still
if you keep the sun away from it !

and .... most distribitor have special offers >
like from customers
no getting their special ordered widths
or what ever ....

for one half or less !

just look at their sites ...........



.

[melong]

>Oi Fritz!

>Some questions I have







>for you!


>Why for teh fin
>
>of teh nature vectoring?

>Vos is up mit dis mein ol' cobber?

>Adding this is

>downward force to windward.

>Effectively this makes teh boat









>heavier!

>Why not Bruce foils to teh loo'ard side mate?
>Lifting teh boat this would be. Also safer.
>Vot is happening to your windward foil in waves?
>Leaving the water it is maybe? Not ferkin good for stability, that.


On a more stylistically conventional note, no bloody way will you build anything you can fit in for $1,000AUS. Nor is glass a better building material than CF unless your only criteria are abrasion resistance and cost. Your problem Fritz is that you appear to be totally unrealistic.

[fritz roth]

G'day,

Not just weaker, but no lighter.




..... you guys are really a funny bunch !

trying your most > to spending a lot of money
to make a heavy or weak boat .......

and having no logical concept it all !




The ampount of resin required to wet out fibreglass and the wood under it is the same, whether the resin has glass balls in it or not.




...... are you trying to be albert einstein ?

having invented just now ???
the new relativity !

>>>> if I mix into a batch of epoxy >
a certain amount of glas balls
having a specific weight of under >>> 1/10 <<<

meaning great volume and practically no weight
then how can it require the same amount of resin ?
with the specific weight of about > 1 <

> to fill in the spaces in the >>> cloth <

and how can it not just >> roll << into the cloth
much easier ! ?

like .... are you saying a ball bearing has more friction ?
then a friction bearing ...........

you can even see when mixing glas balls into the batch
how more fluid the mixture becames ......

and how ??????

can spheres of glas filling the voids of the cloth >>>
be not stronger then the resin alone ????????


> try to destroy a patty of glas balls and epoxy <
its the toughest !

and take it to you kitchen scale !
its the litest ........





Adding the balls to the resin during wet out just makes it harder to wet the cloth and may result in their not being enough resin to wet the timber. Making a much stiffer bog afterwards and filling the weave will result in less resin use overall, an easier job and a better laminate, which is why every boatbuilder in the world does it this way.




........ if I hear " all " the responces here >
like to my post about " mr denney " >>>

I have no doubt it all >

that not a one here has the faintest idea of building a boat
let alone doing it with the least amount of money ......






10 gallons of epoxy and hardener at the 40 gallon price from Shell, who produce it, is $Aus266. A 5 kg bag of glass balloons at the 100 kg price from the producers is $AUS40. Total so far is $306, assuming you know someone who is in the business and can get you these materials at cost. This is 30% of Fritz's total spend of $AUS1,000. If you can get it cheaper than this, Fritz, please let us know the web page of your source.





....... I wouldnt let you into on this >

for any thing !





Look forward to more cost saving techniques and quantities of materials required.




...... one of my connections >

even begged me ones to come and get 20 gallons of gel coat !
a customer ordered ......... but didnt want .........

because they would have to put hardner into it
and then dispose of it as a dangerous material !

>>> you know .... we are in clean europe <<<




regards,

Rob


regards ?

answering all the question posted by me >>>>>> first !



.



.

[fritz roth]

>Oi Fritz!

>Some questions I have
>for you!


>Why for teh fin
>
>of teh nature vectoring?

>Vos is up mit dis mein ol' cobber?





........ what are you trying to say ?

you are having no idea ?

just a mass of dis information !

you are trying to impress some one ?
with out having any idea ?

it all !





>Adding this is

>downward force to windward.

>Effectively this makes teh boat
>heavier!





........... this is any day better !
then flying away >

because when you are really adding dynamic weight !

then you need it too !!!

I mean in a sea way >
not your protected speed way .........




>Why not Bruce foils to teh loo'ard side mate?
>Lifting teh boat this would be. Also safer.





.... just go on surfing down a big wave ones !
it will be your last time ..... you are posting any thing like this !






>Vot is happening to your windward foil in waves?
>Leaving the water it is maybe? Not ferkin good for stability, that.


On a more stylistically conventional note, no bloody way will you build anything you can fit in for $1,000AUS.




......... suprice ! ..... I already have !

but of cource not $ aus >

>>>> real dollars !





Nor is glass a better building material than CF unless your only criteria are abrasion resistance and cost. Your problem Fritz is that you appear to be totally unrealistic.




....... appearance ........ ?

what appearance ?

>>>> if I see >>> people buying 3ghz pcs >
for writting statements about appearances !

then all they are saying must be >>>> fake !

ps ..... I will not buy a windows vista for any thing ........... too !

for appearances ........


.

[fritz roth]

Check this out:
Hydrovisions Innovative High-Performance Watercraft Design
Address:http://hydrovisions.com/ Changed:5:55 PM on Friday, May 5, 2006
-----
The foil is manualy controlled to allow it to pull down or lift up to create righting moment.




......... > limited < righting moment !

just surf on down the next big wave with it !
with your float and fin on your lee ward side

then I will never again ................




Be sure to see the excellent illustrations under "How it works" and the "Photo Gallery".
Brilliant idea!




.......... what is brilliant about having to control your boats stability ?
limited at that >

in addition to your sheets !

mr bruce had this idea !
last century ......

but a vfp needs no controlling !
in the 21 centrury ......

because it has the ability to tend for its self !

because the designer of
had the ability to think in a logical way ...........



.

[melong]

>Oi Fritz!

>Some questions I have
>for you!


>Why for teh fin
>
>of teh nature vectoring?

>Vos is up mit dis mein ol' cobber?





........ what are you trying to say ?

you are having no idea ?

just a mass of dis information !

you are trying to impress some one ?
with out having any idea ?

it all !.
>Fritzy Baby............hopeth I

>confusedeth thee not! Surely mein.......



>......thoroughly.........

>buggered and disjointed.......!!:D !!


>post, did not........

>scramble thine eyeballs?
>Using your preferred format for clarity I was!

>Taking teh piss I be not doing.........

>speaking in tongues I am.... for ease

>........ of comprehension on your part!

[melong]

>Why not Bruce foils to teh loo'ard side mate?
>Lifting teh boat this would be. Also safer.





.... just go on surfing down a big wave ones !
it will be your last time ..... you are posting any thing like this !Why? It's easy. Cats and tris do it all the time with floats and foils to leeward. What's your point?

[fritz roth]

Why? It's easy. Cats and tris do it all the time with floats and foils to leeward. What's your point?



.......... oh my .............

where in heaven am I here ?

have any of you heard of diagonal xxxxxx ?

this term its like half a century old
when the first trimarans did it so well !

because when you surf on down ........

the float doesnt have enough boyancy
to compensate the force of ...........

this is why I have >> even a harry has ?

the long hull to lee ward !
and your righting concept to wind ward !


> but I get the feeling you will never get it <


.

[fritz roth]

>Fritzy Baby............hopeth I

>confusedeth thee not! Surely mein.......



>......thoroughly.........

>buggered and disjointed.......!!:D !!


>post, did not........

>scramble thine eyeballs?
>Using your preferred format for clarity I was!

>Taking teh piss I be not doing.........

>speaking in tongues I am.... for ease

>........ of comprehension on your part!


........ for some one .......

who doesnt know a thing >

you shurely say a lot !



.

[fritz roth]

.

...... this is about your structure ......

>>> have you heared the name of >> structural foam ?

this is the stuff >>> that costs at least 10 x
what a much liter foam costs

and is no more structural then this !

because if you put an both sides
of your " structural" foam
some fiber glas !

then pull at it from the apposite sides !

and you will see >>>
it does no only flex greatly
from the shear forces !
but it will stay sheared after !
if pulled at it enough .....

so ?

you need to have a connection
from one side to the other !

> other then the foam itself <

no matter what foam you use !
so use the one that is the litest and cost 1/10 ....

like the 3/4 ps polydur foam > basf
then you have 1" wide strips of this >
with structural mixture glued together >

to have a box girder ..... with every one there ....

and because its 1" over all thick >
you have the most stable of structures possible ...........



.

[melong]

.......... oh my .............

where in heaven am I here ?

have any of you heard of diagonal xxxxxx ?

this term its like half a century old
when the first trimarans did it so well !

because when you surf on down ........

the float doesnt have enough boyancy
to compensate the force of ...........

this is why I have >> even a harry has ?

the long hull to lee ward !
and your righting concept to wind ward !


> but I get the feeling you will never get it <


.So when we cut through all the crap all you're saying is that the leeward hull needs sufficient bouyancy not to bury. I would have thought this was perfectly obvious. Where did I ever suggest anything else? So you agree there's no problem with having a float to leeward? What, then, were you waffling about?

[fritz roth]

So when we cut through all the crap all you're saying is that the leeward hull needs sufficient bouyancy not to bury. I would have thought this was perfectly obvious. Where did I ever suggest anything else? So you agree there's no problem with having a float to leeward? What, then, were you waffling about?



........ only if you are having a float to wind ward at all times !
if you have one it all .....

and your main hull to lee ward all the time !
will you have enough safety in any thing !

this is obvious for decades !
and any mind worth taking about > will see this clearly why ....

and all the crap and waffling you are giving forth
is obvously >>> crap !

so as far as I am concerned you can cut it !
because all you do is be a shame .......

to humanity !

and forget the contraption called "raptor" as well !

because first > it has the float on the lee > half the times !
and in addition you need to control the stability all the time !
the wind is heavy .....

like you did have enought to do then ........

before I would get this "raptor" >
" this brilliant idea "

I would rather get just a cat
then I would have the same sailing ability

on both tacks !!!

or better yet >
I would get the really brilliant idea >

a vfp !

but for this
I have to be able to under stand some thing more advanced >

then weight
or idiotic contraptions .............


.


.

[fritz roth]

.

..... this is about the engine of your vfp ....

the rig !

>>> now imagine !

you should have a free standing one >>
high tech >>> and modern rig !

say >> 2" thick and 20' high !

so .... you are having only 100# on the top
and because you are so " high tech " >

having a ton compression / pulling
at the bottom .... at least !

a free standing mast maybe worth a consideration >
on a slim line mono ... with low stability
and no base to speak of >

but on a multi ... especialy a vfp >
its simply insanity !

because you need it much thicker
to be able to be even functional
in regular wind loads >

but then it will have a lot more windage
then a 2" stayed mast
and >>>> it will need to be turn able !

some thing other wise not needed on a proa
because the sail is on the lee ward side
not behind >>> fastened on ....

> so the air flow is smooth <

so .... buy a $ 10 aluminum tube
and fasten it with stays to your wide base deck
and you will have maybe # 200 compression load !
>>> and this even over the whole profile <<<

and forget about a $ 1000
carbon fiber reinforced contraption !



.

[Chris Ostlind]

My Gawd, Fritz Old Boy...

This has turned into a Fritz-a-thon.. Next thing you know, there'll be a mandatory donation to the Fritz Charity of Fritz's discretion.

I haven't seen this many self-serving posts since.... Well, since any of the various and sundry lifting foil based, shill posts.

What, exactly, is it that you are desperately trying to say, Fritz? Can it be that the English language thing has gotten you so in a quandary that you've lost your cohesive train of thought on all this? Please tell me that this is not all you have on this topic?

No, really, I'd like to hear your definitive pitch about vector foils, Fritz, but it is more than a hassle to read your posts and it ends up not being worth the effort to push through your, rather stilted, prose.

[melong]

Which is precisely why I've been enjoying taking the piss out of Fritz. If he wants his audience to take him seriously he should have the courtesy to take his audience seriously. He can do this by making his points clearly and succinctly, in a conventional, easy to read format. If he lacks the humility and decency to do this I see no reason why he shouldn't be given the finger.
Everything he has tried to say so far could easily have been dealt with in two or three fairly short and lucid paragraphs.

ETA: By the way Fritz, your idea about adding fillers to laminating resin was ridiculous. If you won't take my word for it take the examples of all the top boatbuilders and aerospace companies in the world. All your method would do is make laminating more difficult and decrease the inter-laminate strength.

[fritz roth]

.


......... any one homo sapiens looking at this so pitifull word ........

will shurely see faster then he can blink with his eyes >
that one idiot is competing with the other >>>
to confirm the mass of idiots !

trying soooo hard to stay idiots ..........


just take your computer > it will have a 3 ghz clock
for nothing but using too much power !
for creating a climatic collaps .......

like 500 watts instead of 5 !

and of cource > being able to run the biggest idiot operation system >
this world has ever come up with >

>>> windows vista !


so ... as soon as some one comes along ..........

who is not an idiot > he will be defamed >
till he knows for shure >
that this population is just all idiots .......


to prove this to the not to be prove to any thing !

>>> I have heard no valid arguments >
what so ever here >
just idiots trying to to stay to be cherished idiots !

like " a raptor is a brilliant idea "
( straight out off the last century )

and the new century version is " cxxxx " !


and no one should be talking now of me using foul language
because it wasnt me who started this ..........

it all !



I was just the human
trying to help this poor population
up out of their stone age mentality >

but there will be no chance at that >

just think of what bill gates would be doing
with all the population being as inteligent as I am .........

creating a 5mb windows 75' ?



ps >

even sp has mentioned the possibility
of adding glas bubbles to their epoxy system
when filling in cloth .........

and sp is one of the most advanced companies
in the field of structural fiber systems !

and if you can ever see the light for one second >
you can make a gf board >>> floating on water >
being stronger then any thing else ......

or make your self a patty lighter then spruce !

all you need is the right bubbles
some being big
more being medium in size
and the most small !

and all of them > smooth < at the surface
almost like your window pane so they will not use up the liquid !

but just make the mixure very lite
and fluid !

>>> and very strong because of all the glas bubbles >
like egg shells ..........


and of cource the bubbles have to be thin walled
meaning very lite ..........



.

[fritz roth]

.


....... for all the confirmation >

of all I ever said !


and especially for my social science thesis ........




.