33ft/10m LOA motorsailers. Why there are so few of them?

[xarax]

There was a time, not so long ago, when small motorsailers around 30 feet, like Nauticat 33 and the like, were popular to young or not-so-young couples looking for extended vacations in a roomy, but affordable and easy handled boat. With the inflation of the late nineties, the boats got bigger and bigger, and now it seems that the minimum length of such a motorsailer is 40, even 50 feet LOA. Why is this so? Why cars, for example, are getting smaller and cheaper, while sailboats are getting bigger and not-cheap-at-all any more? Is the small motorsailer outdated?

[FAST FRED]

Is the small motorsailer outdated?

The "old " motorsailors were a delight for X pure rag baggers to at last be warm & dry.

Todays boater has not usually started in dink racing and worked up.

Today the Quest is for a house afloat , washing machine , dish washer and all.

The size required is larger to carry the equipment necessary for modern electronic cruising.

Paper charts? GASP!! How do you know where you are on those?

FF

[yipster]

all that and dont forget motorsailers allways did cost more

and there was / is the compromise, sailing with small sails
and bigger motor or motoring with a mast up sailboat etc

my gallery shows some scetches on another idea for a motorsailer
maybe some wharram style construction to keep price down?

yeah, that porsche shown is nice but i'll chance it to a minicar
reason i'm driving a mini is ive got a boat, yaeh, its all compromises

[xarax]

" Today the Quest is for a house afloat..."
This is the heart of the problem for the modern obesity pandemic in the recreational boat industry in general.
There are the sea-men who want a bigger boat and the land-men who want a smaller house, a floating copy of the one they have in their farm, with the garage and the porshe in it, if possible...
But this is not what boats were supposed to do, at least it was not when I, for one, fall in love with them for the first time in the old days. When there is not any molecule of terra firma under your feet, what you really need is less weight, not more. When there is so much unobstructed space around you, what you really need is a small cabin, not a huge palace.
Modern technology gives us stronger and lighter materials, so we can have some of the facilities we are accustomed to have at home without excessive loading of the boat. Modern electronics are beautiful because they are small and light, lighter than the old navigation systems with all their paraphernalia.
When we are talking about sea-going boats, size matters but so does seamanship too. We must not use it as an excuse for staying at the fictional safety of the marina.
A 33ft/10m motorsailer is big enough for a couple looking for a few weeks sea journey. If they find the right boat.

[yipster]

ok, journey's can be made with a, sorry, two bikes aboard also
10 meter motor ( not smaller sail ) boat we find allready to small for a week
while i'm a calm frendly guy and did hear bout advanatges of the small cabin :D
but how small is big enough to really be comfortable
the real motor sailor dont go for less weight and junk, he wants a multi purpose
good for all type of boat, preferable with workbench and all is it not?
but i hear you, car goes mini, dump the dishwasher too

[FAST FRED]

"A 33ft/10m motorsailer is big enough for a couple looking for a few weeks sea journey. If they find the right boat."

Many , many boats smaller than 33ft have completed uneventful circumnavigations , 2 or 3 YEARS , of cruising.

The MS configuration should be more comfortable in heavy weather , and the bigger engine would allow refrigeration .

With todays light weight construction ,and engines a 90/90 is easy to envision , rather than the slow 50/50 of years gone by.

FF

[yipster]

all agreed, and i envy that nauticat 33 (http://www.en.best-boats24.net/werftenliste/N/NAUTICAT/1.html) as a very attractive small motorsailor!
our (power) boat has the same size tho and even fitting a radio or so is often too tight
the cat sketch i made must be 16m for clearance and other considerations
but for liveaboard motorsailors i belive cats to be the future

[xarax]

...and a small motorsailer cat has questionable: 1) interior space. 2) blue water capabilities. 3) marina costs. I see no future there! If you go as high as ,say, 16M LOA, you better spend the night at the five stars hotel nearby :) .Women seldom prefer small sailboats from big hotels, anyway...

[FAST FRED]

"but for liveaboard motorsailors i belive cats to be the future"

Liveaboard , and lakes bays and rivers perhaps.

But for ocean cruising far too much time would be spent in port waiting for a weather window.

Cats can capsize , the smaller the easier to be flipped.

"Much Ungood"!

FF

[yipster]

in my mind plays a powerboat that can outsail a sailboat (downwind ;-)

[xarax]

...with the garage and the porshe in it :)
It could well house a 33ft/10M LOA motorsailer as well...:)
(The drawings are pretty, though.)

[FAST FRED]

The usual problem with the old 50/50 is the limited ability to transit.

With never enough fuel to cross an ocean UNDER POWER , and a tiny cut down sail rig , the boat is best for coastal passages.

To voyage with the tiny sail rig would require the patience of a Saint.

Of course at 60 ft LOA , its another world.

FF

[yipster]

come to think of it, what sailboat does not have a motor nowadays
on the other hand, what powerboat has a ( fold-out ) sail

pretty? more to draw and calculate but thats what counts :)

[FAST FRED]

what powerboat has a ( fold-out ) sail

If the Kite folks have their dreams come true, most ocean transiting motor boats will be be wind powered under some conditions.

FFF

[yipster]

yes i was crazy, i've been hanging on those stairway foil gliders
long ago fantasised hanging on one with dolphins in the water
( the type that sweeps sideways clearing mines )
motorsailors usually have deck stepped masts, hmmm
a new thread on masts and riggings (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14881&page=2) may be a good idea

[sharpii2]

There was a time, not so long ago, when small motorsailers around 30 feet, like Nauticat 33 and the like, were popular to young or not-so-young couples looking for extended vacations in a roomy, but affordable and easy handled boat. With the inflation of the late nineties, the boats got bigger and bigger, and now it seems that the minimum length of such a motorsailer is 40, even 50 feet LOA. Why is this so? Why cars, for example, are getting smaller and cheaper, while sailboats are getting bigger and not-cheap-at-all any more? Is the small motorsailer outdated?

I think you forget to factor in that the middle class, at least here in the U.S., is shrinking in favor of a much poorer working class and a far more afluent upper class. The upper class are going to want all the comforts of home plus high performance and the new working class can't even afford to get near the water. I first noticed this change in the early nineties when the boats mentioned in the sailing magazines started getting bigger and bigger (40 and 50 somethings) and the smaller boats (20 to 30 somethings) started getting less and less press.

I guess boat builders, like everybody else, have to go where the money is.

I would hope, though, that if I were a part of the upper class I would see the advantages of a smaller boat. Greater handiness and, hopefully, less yard hassles. Being able to go out for a few days just on a whim on a boat I can easily handle has great appeal to me.

Bob

[fcfc]

I think you forget to factor in that the middle class, at least here in the U.S., is shrinking in favor of a much poorer working class and a far more afluent upper class. The upper class are going to want all the comforts of home plus high performance and the new working class can't even afford to get near the water. I first noticed this change in the early nineties when the boats mentioned in the sailing magazines started getting bigger and bigger (40 and 50 somethings) and the smaller boats (20 to 30 somethings) started getting less and less press.



I agree with this in europe. The first beneteau sailboat was the "First 30", then the "First 22". Now the typical beneteau sailboat is a 40.

And back to motorsailers.

What do you think of : http://www.sirius-werft.de/EN/32DS_Daten.html
http://www.sirius-werft.de/EN/sirius.html

Is it a motorsailer, or a decksaloon sailboat.

[yipster]

what to say... nice boat eighter way
fisheye panorama pics show tasty details

[FAST FRED]

"I think you forget to factor in that the middle class, at least here in the U.S., is shrinking in favor of a much poorer working class and a far more afluent upper class.'

Fraid you have been sold a bunch of garbage,

loads of folks are no longer in the Middle class , because there now in the upper class.

I realize as a recovering New Yorker that only $100,000 a year in NYC (say a skool aid and a underground train driver $125,000combined income before tax extraction) have a heck of a time living in a good apartment and sending their kids to a good skool, but they indeed are no longer in the middle class , just look at the tax extortion forced on them.

The illegal migrants on most Long Island street corners , looking for work , do not accept less than $100 a day and lunch.

Where ARE these millions of "poor" ?

The only POOR I know of are children that have children at 15.

FF

[sharpii2]

I agree with this in europe. The first beneteau sailboat was the "First 30", then the "First 22". Now the typical beneteau sailboat is a 40.

And back to motorsailers.

What do you think of : http://www.sirius-werft.de/EN/32DS_Daten.html
http://www.sirius-werft.de/EN/sirius.html

Is it a motorsailer, or a decksaloon sailboat.

I think it is really a sailboat. I can see no mention of fuel tankage which, in itself, would be a dead give away of designer intent. I can imagine there will be many pure sail boats that look like motor sailers and many motor sailors that look like pure sailboats. Take the 'Tahiti ketch' for example. it has the low, sturdy cabin of a pure sailboat and no pilot house, yet it had an engine and significant tankage making it, in my opinion, an early motor sailor. And, if I must say so myself, a damn good concept, even in this day and age. I would much rather take it poking around in odd corners of the Earth than more modern, 'efficient' so called 90/90 boats.

Bob

[xarax]

"...loads of folks are no longer in the Middle class, because there now in the Upper class." That presumably explains the sparsity of newer small motorsailers, around 33ft/10M LOA.
If Time is Money, and the Upper class is the Leisure class, "loads of folks" should have ample time to spend on blue water sailing. Is that what is really happening ? On the contrary, the terrifying nothingness of free time that characterizes modern life confines loads of folks in the dead calm realm of the Lower classes.

[sharpii2]

"I think you forget to factor in that the middle class, at least here in the U.S., is shrinking in favor of a much poorer working class and a far more afluent upper class.'

Fraid you have been sold a bunch of garbage,

loads of folks are no longer in the Middle class , because there now in the upper class.

I realize as a recovering New Yorker that only $100,000 a year in NYC (say a skool aid and a underground train driver $125,000combined income before tax extraction) have a heck of a time living in a good apartment and sending their kids to a good skool, but they indeed are no longer in the middle class , just look at the tax extortion forced on them.

The illegal migrants on most Long Island street corners , looking for work , do not accept less than $100 a day and lunch.

Where ARE these millions of "poor" ?

The only POOR I know of are children that have children at 15.

FF


Funny thing, Fred. I never mentioned where this vanishing middle class was going. I only pointed out that, from what I see, it is getting smaller. And, from what I have seen (and experienced, I might add), the working class is getting poorer. And that's it.

[sharpii2]

"...loads of folks are no longer in the Middle class, because there now in the Upper class." That presumably explains the sparsity of newer small motorsailers, around 33ft/10M LOA.
If Time is Money, and the Upper class is the Leisure class, "loads of folks" should have ample time to spend on blue water sailing. Is that what is really happening ? On the contrary, the terrifying nothingness of free time that characterizes modern life confines loads of folks in the dead calm realm of the Lower classes.

I don't know any millionaires, but the afluent people I do know are very busy. Their free time seems to be measured in hours per month, not days.

The tradgedy is that the only people who can afford an ocean voyaging boat will never have time to use it. But I think that has almost always been the case. Most of the voyaging accounts I have read about happened in boats that were aquired by some discount method, be it owner constructed, or a serious fixer upper. I rarely hear of someone taking off in a brand new boat , purchased outright, unless they a sponsored racer.

That's why I'm interested in designing simple boats that may boarder on the crude, but are relatively simple to construct and, more importantly, easier to maintain. High performance designs almost never fit that criteria. It seems to me that all the fancy developments that have occured during the last quarter century just don't wear well. I have a feeling that long after they make their famous performance benchmarks, their designs will die. And some how someone will figure out how to make something even faster. Which will probably be even less practical.

Meanwhile, over the horizon, the full keel auxiliarys will still be plying the seas. Dozens, if not hundreds of years from now. It seems that the only two inovations, over the last one hundred years that have real 'legs', are external ballast and masthead rigs. Masthead rigs, because they can be made all but indestuctable. And external ballast, because it will pull your boat back upright. Both are realatively easy to execute and are extremely pratical. It seems that everything else just comes and goes as this or that year's fashion.

Bob

[Vega]

What do you think of : http://www.sirius-werft.de/EN/32DS_Daten.html
http://www.sirius-werft.de/EN/sirius.html

Is it a motorsailer, or a decksaloon sailboat.

It is a question of opinion. A relatively slow sailboat or a faster motorsailor?:p

Either way it is a very good boat. I have been inside several boats of the range and they all have an immaculate finish with superb and practical interiors.

I have also discussed some technical points with the builders, regarding the construction of the superstructures (all in massif wood, no fiberglass there) and I was impressed. It's a small shipyard, run by a family (father and son) and they put a lot of pride in what they do. Expensive boats, that deserve the money you pay for them.

There was a time, not so long ago, when small motorsailers around 30 feet, like Nauticat 33 and the like, were popular to young or not-so-young couples looking for extended vacations in a roomy, but affordable and easy handled boat. With the inflation of the late nineties, the boats got bigger and bigger, and now it seems that the minimum length of such a motorsailer is 40, even 50 feet LOA. Why is this so? Why cars, for example, are getting smaller and cheaper, while sailboats are getting bigger and not-cheap-at-all any more? Is the small motorsailer outdated?

I don’t think so. There are in the market motorsailors around 30ft. There are no more because there is not a demand for them. The reason is money. Such a boat is an expensive and heavy boat. For the same money you can have a 40 or 42 production sailboat with a powerful engine and with much more interior space.

Sailboats have changed and are more polyvalent and can do what some years ago only a motorsailor could do (regarding motoring), so people that used to buy 30ft motorsailors are now buying production cruising sailboats like the Oceanis 411 0r the Bavaria 40 Vision. A lot more boat for the same money for an equivalent seaworthiness.

Merry Christmas to all.;)

[xarax]

"People that used to buy 30ft motorsailors are now buying production cruising sailboats like the Oceanis 411 0r the Bavaria 40 Vision. A lot more boat for the same money for an equivalent seaworthiness."
May be, but "equivalent" seaworthiness? :?: Define "equivalence" please, Vega.:)

[Vega]

"People that used to buy 30ft motorsailors are now buying production cruising sailboats like the Oceanis 411 0r the Bavaria 40 Vision. A lot more boat for the same money for an equivalent seaworthiness."
May be, but "equivalent" seaworthiness? :?: Define "equivalence" please, Vega.:)

Xarax, I don't wish to enter in details. That is a generic observation and you can say it is my personal opinion.

Each boat would be a case, but you can say that both types of boats have strong and week points, regarding costs/seaworthiness. Generally a 30ft heavy motorsailor can be more seaworthy than a light sailing boat of the same size, but a much bigger light sailing boat, (that would cost the same) can be as seaworthy or more, than the smaller boat.

As an example, a new 33ft motorsailor, for instance the Nauticat 331, costs about the same as a 50ft Bavaria or an Oceanis 473. Seaworthiness is a relative concept, but personably I would rather face bad weather in an Oceanis 473 than in a 33ft Nauticat;) .

[xarax]

A not so young anymore ( and not so fool anymore...) fellow (like me, for one...), who is not a sail champion (anymore :)), will not sail alone, or with the company of a presumably inexperienced friend, in a 47 or 50ft boat, if he is not sure about the weather. (I am not talking about super-automated, super-expensive sailboats, like Wally and the like, of course.) In a 33 ft motorsailer, things are many times simpler, lighter, quicker, easier, so one can argue that a well build 33ft motorsailer, sailed single-handed, is also safer in adverse weather conditions. ( A HR 342 would be fine, too.;) )

[Vega]

A not so young anymore ( and not so fool anymore...) fellow (like me, for one...), who is not a sail champion (anymore :)), will not sail alone, or with the company of a presumably inexperienced friend, in a 47 or 50ft boat, if he is not sure about the weather. (I am not talking about super-automated, super-expensive sailboats, like Wally and the like, of course.) In a 33 ft motorsailer, things are many times simpler, lighter, quicker, easier, so one can argue that a well build 33ft motorsailer, sailed single-handed, is also safer in adverse weather conditions. ( A HR 342 would be fine, too.;) )

I was not saying that a33ft motorsailor is not a safe boat. If you know me better you would know that I strongly object to someone that wants to tell you what’s the best boat for you. I was only saying why there are so few small traditional motorsailors on the market (new ones). But there are some and that means that there are people that prefers them to other type of boats, never minding the price. And that’s fine by me, I like diversity.

About the dificulty of sailing a modern 47ft boat single-handed. It is a lot easier than it looks.
António has one (and I don’t think he is a young man), listening what he says:

Yes,Vega, I sail on 473 since 2005 March.Most of the times alone. I´ve been in a gale with 52 kts and 4 meter waves close to Isla de Alboran. I had no problems with the boat, very strong, very safe and even more very fast. I did escape of a low pressure system at 11.5 knots only with main sail 2 reefs and storm sail. All were perfect while steering at 120-130 º of wind. First example where I could prove to myself, the safety of speed for escaping a gale. ...

Best winds

[sharpii2]

I don't know any millionaires, but the afluent people I do know are very busy. Their free time seems to be measured in hours per month, not days.

The tradgedy is that the only people who can afford an ocean voyaging boat will never have time to use it. But I think that has almost always been the case. Most of the voyaging accounts I have read about happened in boats that were aquired by some discount method, be it owner constructed, or a serious fixer upper. I rarely hear of someone taking off in a brand new boat , purchased outright, unless they a sponsored racer.

That's why I'm interested in designing simple boats that may boarder on the crude, but are relatively simple to construct and, more importantly, easier to maintain. High performance designs almost never fit that criteria. It seems to me that all the fancy developments that have occured during the last quarter century just don't wear well. I have a feeling that long after they make their famous performance benchmarks, their designs will die. And some how someone will figure out how to make something even faster. Which will probably be even less practical.

Meanwhile, over the horizon, the full keel auxiliarys will still be plying the seas. Dozens, if not hundreds of years from now. It seems that the only two inovations, over the last one hundred years that have real 'legs', are external ballast and masthead rigs. Masthead rigs, because they can be made all but indestuctable. And external ballast, because it will pull your boat back upright. Both are realatively easy to execute and are extremely pratical. It seems that everything else just comes and goes as this or that year's fashion.

Bob


It is with considerable embarrassment that I realised I left a few inovations out. Namely, Fiber Glass construction, Dacron(r) sails, reliable diesel engines, roller furling, and, most recently (to my greatest embarrassment) feathering propellers (I wouldn't design a motorsailor without one). These five other innovations I expect to see around for a very long time.

A possible sixth one might be carbon fibre masts, but only when people learn to build them themselves. They are inherently labor intensive to make. And the materials aint cheap either. As much as I admire their superior strength to weight ratio and the extra performance it promises, I see them as a real budget buster at this time. But I wouldn't be surprised to see them on just about every boat in a decade or two.

I could imagine puting a modern diesel, dacron sails, carbon spars, and a feathering propellor on a 'Tahiti Ketch', but, other than enlarging the sail plan somewhat (say 10 to 15%) due to the lighter spars, not changing the design one bit. It would be interesting to see what performance improvements could be gained.

Sorry for the over sight.

Bob

[xarax]

Originally Posted by Antonio Alcalá, cited by Vega:
"Yes, Vega, I sail on 473 since 2005 March. Most of the times alone. I have been in a gale with 52 kts and 4 meter waves close to Isla de Alboran. I had no problems with the boat, very strong, very safe and even more very fast. I did escape of a low-pressure system at 11.5 knots only with main sail 2 reefs and storm sail. All were perfect while steering at 120-130 º of wind. First example where I could prove to myself, the safety of speed for escaping a gale. ..."
Well, let me put it that way:
Being fortunate enough to have escaped greater gales, I am no longer in the position to have to prove to myself anything at all. :) I admire brave men like Antonio Alcala, but to me Nature, the Elements, are there for us to understand them, not to conquer them, because "the world is subtle but not malicious" and, what is of most importance, because the world is "incomprehensibly comprehensible". Now, the big truth of the sea is that the bigger the boat, the safer it is, if one is able to stir it properly. However "the opposite of a big truth is also a big truth", remember? The smaller the boat, the less its resistance to the elements, so the easier to manage it. There is no fixed golden ratio, the optimum size of the boat depends upon the particular individual and the particular sea state he finds himself in. For each one of us there is, I guess, a point of equilibrium in between which begs to be measured, under conditions far from equilibrium, like a gale, for example.:) For me 33ft/1OM LOA was enough then, I remember, so, after all these years, it should be enough now, too.:)

[Vega]

Not always the bigger is the safer, but I agree with you about the rest.

Have a nice Christmas:)