What is your OS -- windows, mac, linux?

[Jeff]

Curious what OS our forum members are running (if multiple, please choose the OS that you use most.)

[SmithCraft64]

Windows XPprofessional with sp2 upgrade Your welcome Jeff. No problem. SmithCraft64

[boogie]

Windows XP because i have to, not because i want to....
with Rhino and Solidworks being the main tools there has not been much of an option to get away from it for now.

i would love to see more commercial software on Linux..., but my next computer will be a Mac with windows [and the two or three programs i can't get for Mac OSX] running as a virtual machine on something like Paralells Desktop.
i tried this combination recently on a dual core Intel Mac and i am positively surprised how good the performance of the virtual XP is. no comparison to older Virtual PC stuff on PowerMacs.
Macs still don't have one single virus out in the wild on OSX.


boogie

[Jeff]

Yes, I realize this is a bit of a loaded question. Also posted http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14382 (and made that a single choice poll to make it easy to answer :D)

Also very interested in Parallels. Saw it run this summer and was impressed. Dual booting seems pointless to me - tried that for driver issues back in the 98/NT days and it was horrible in terms of lost time. Much more impressed with a VM concept (and would gladly put in an extra couple sticks of ram to have both running all the time.) Honestly I like the freedom and flexibility and $$$ of pc hardware; I'm waiting until apple has the courage to put OSX up against windows on any intel hardware.

Macs still don't have one single virus out in the wild on OSX.
I hope OSX really is coded that well. I have no reason to believe it's not true. But I will be interested to see if things change once 25% of the world is on a mac os. It might just be that virus writers like software developers figure why program for 2% when they can target the majority just as easily.

[boogie]

hi jeff,

if you want the freedom of hardware you can run Linux instead of OSX as your main system and Paralells on it. they do a dedicated Linux version of it too.
i have spent quite a bit of time with Linux [Ubuntu, one of the most polished and easy to set up distro's], but i prefer the "just works" with minimal set up of OSX.

the hardware used on macs these days is not really that different from PC's and contrary to you i like the idea of having the whole system from one supplier. i'm pretty sure this is one of the main reasons why they work as well as they do. they just don't have to support all the odd combinations of hardware out there. if they have to control it so they can make it work better, it's fine with me.
Apple doesn't do the bottom end of the price range of hardware, but i'm not interested in that segment either. if you compare their hardware feature for feature they are actually quite resonably priced.

in regards to viruses on the mac, i think this just shows how powerful the Unix underpinnings of OSX are. it was built with security in mind. same for Linux.
it's only a matter of time until someone cracks it, but i doubt it's ever going to be anywhere near as bad as Windows.

there are millions of Macs in use and not a single virus. shouldn't they have at least a few? imagine the fame for the first hacker to crack OSX.
windows has 115000 viruses. the new Windows Vista had its first viruses already early in the beta stage when it was only released to 10000 developers.... so much for the security via obscurity myth.

here is an interesting article i found:
Macs and viruses1 (http://www.mac360.com/index.php/mac360/comments/part_1_macs_and_viruses_fact_vs_fud/)

Macs and viruses2 (http://www.mac360.com/index.php/mac360/comments/part_2_macs_and_viruses_fact_vs_fud/)

whatever tickles your fancy... there are plenty of options for everyone.


boogie

[Jeff]

I honestly don't know what to think about exploit issues - the difference is quite incredible.

I have enjoyed running a linux box beside my windows box here for a while now but all my main software is still on windows so I just use the linux box for browsing and email so far (and testing web apps locally). I haven't given it the time it deserves to more fully utilize it for GUI apps.

I wish parallels would allow me to run osx on a non-mac machine -- now that would be really neat!

i like the idea of having the whole system from one supplier. i'm pretty sure this is one of the main reasons why they work as well as they do.
I still prefer custom-built over one-size-fits all. I like the ability to build at the component level for specific needs and not have vendor-monopoly. But I can see your point too -- software that only has to perfectly support 100 hardware configurations is probably a lot easier to perfect without bloat or glitches than software that has to perfectly support 10,000 hardware configurations.

Maybe I just need to save up and invest in some mac gear to get my feet wet and be won over (but then again, I'm not in a hurry as windows is ok too.) And I hate to buy a mac that's slower than my 3-year old PC, so it would cost some $$,$$$.

[Tim B]

I voted Linux, but in truth, I use Linux, Windows XP (only for Rhino 3), and RISC-OS (for graphical research problems).

I must say, I have been VERY impressed by the recent Linux distros from Mandriva. The hardware support is (in areas) better than XP. It's a shame that the available 3D CAD software is not as good as Rhino. However, I have recently been using QCAD for 2D work and I have to say that it's pretty good. We're getting there. KDE 3.5 gives us a GUI that is far superior to XP and it's not an environment that a MAC user would have trouble with (except that our mice have more buttons)!!

Tim B.

[boogie]

hi jeff,

what components exactly are you talking about?
not all apple system are integrated monitors with computers on the inside [iMac] or kind of little sealed boxes [like the mini].
they have "classic" style workstations too. i have to admit the MacPro are pretty high end [dual processor with double core each], but you can configure them to your needs.
you can't choose your mothe board or case, but you can pick the RAM, they have 4 bays for hard drives, they have PCI express slots and you can chooose your own graphic card, monitor, keyboard, mouse....none of which need to be or are apple proprietary in the first place.

gosh, i really sound like an apple shill now... i don't even have one.

hey, this guy is doing really cool reviews. you might want to have a look:
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2816&p=1

boogie

[Jeff]

they have 4 bays for hard drives
My PC has 13, 10 hot swap. If I went all-mac, it looks like I'd have to add a sas controller in one of the slots to support booting and running from 15k sas drives, so the entry level price looks to be about $4500. Then if I really wanted to switch to all-mac I'd have to add one of the 3k to 5k apple raid appliances just to hold the drives for my archive array since there isn't room in the macpro itself to hold more than 4 drives :( (I'm hooked on the performance of 15k drives, but for archive data, the economy of the inexpensive 7200 rpm sata drives is the only way to go for me, so I need room for two arrays of drives.)

[westlawn5554X]

Windows... XP professional... later new AMD64 would install windowXP 64.

Mac have less hardware option than other window based hardware making Mac a solid yet nothing to really upgrade box...(lesser stuff to upgrade).

We have over here under-bone competition to juice up your std PC to their limit... overclocking. Fun and learn a lot.

Virus factor is a reality... I think somewhere there is a virus maker also the programmer for the cure. You cant sell virus killer if there arent any virus... make sense? Once Mac is widely popular... virus would be in the menu as usual.

having converting program between IBM and APPLE in school days was nothing new... around 1982-1983, first program promise interchangable software... Then my favourite computer was OSBORNE, NEC, APPLE IIC and Modified 386 Turbo... all found in my dad's firm.

LISA was the grandmother of MAC and Apple is a juicy fruit. Love the CP/M days and everything need to be type and batch file programming kills.

[boogie]

Riiiiight......

and i thought all along that we were talking about CAD workstations for design and normal office stuff here.
i thought i'm on a boat design forum, not a webhosting forum... ;)

sure if you are going to run a webserver with terabytes worth of archiving storage and hot swapable 15kRPM hard drives, then a custom built Windows server, Linux or even BSD system makes much more sense.

i have no idea what custom configurations Apple can supply for those sort of requirements. they do big supercomputer stuff though....

you're certainly doing a great job with this site. keep up the good work.

boogie




My PC has 13, 10 hot swap. If I went all-mac, it looks like I'd have to add a sas controller in one of the slots to support booting and running from 15k sas drives, so the entry level price looks to be about $4500. Then if I really wanted to switch to all-mac I'd have to add one of the 3k to 5k apple raid appliances just to hold the drives for my archive array since there isn't room in the macpro itself to hold more than 4 drives :( (I'm hooked on the performance of 15k drives, but for archive data, the economy of the inexpensive 7200 rpm sata drives is the only way to go for me, so I need room for two arrays of drives.)

[SteamFreak]

What about Dual boot systems (WINXP PRO and Linux)?

[Tim B]

Then it's a question of which you use most, Steamfreak.

Personally, I keep getting surprised by Windows and it's proprietry software. Just when you think it can't possibly screw it up any worse, it does. And every time Linux has been there, quietly waiting for a chance to put a smile on the face of it's user when they can say "Linux will do that".

While I'm ranting, does anyone else find it somewhat hypocritical that Gates gives huge amounts of money to starving kids when Microsoft has been extracting moeny from the populous by less than ethical means? How will we remember Bill Gates when he finally retires?

Just ranting again, but maybe something to think about,

Tim B.

[l_boyle]

Why the poll?
I thought that Windows OS are only thing that survived in computer world

[Tim B]

Why on earth did you think that?

Evidently you subscribe to the idiom that anything from outside the US must be evil. There's a whole world out there, but you can't be afraid to learn.

Tim B.

[marshmat]

Well, for sheer power, it's hard to top a Unix-based SunFire....
Running XPP now on my Toshiba laptop, it does the job but soooo inefficient. All this automated crap that's near impossible to turn off and decides to take up 700 MB of pagefile at the least convenient time.
Vista reportedly takes up over 12 GB of HDD once it's installed and configured. Anyone with the beta confirm this? I'm almost scared to see memory and pagefile stats on that thing....
Overall, I think a bit of competition's a good thing... get Linux in the ring with some good CAD programs. Apples aren't as customizable as other systems, yes... but that's not the point of a Mac; the point of a Mac is to have a system that's blazing fast and does what you want it to do right out of the box. They're meant to be easy to use, to let the user be creative without worrying about the computer. For those who like fussing around with system internals, well, that's what the others are good for.

[Tim B]

Vista is very pretty, but is hideously in-efficient, can't survive without connection to the net, and picks up viruses faster than a prostitute.

All in all, the new linux distributions (particularly with KDE 3.5) are nicer, faster and more reliable than XP or Vista. When I did Beta-test vista, within about two weeks it had become so slow to surf the web that it was faster to use a RISC-PC built in 1996.

Tim B.

[Jeff]

the point of a Mac is to have a system that's blazing fast and does what you want it to do right out of the box. As long as your needs are exactly like the other 250,000 people that buy that same model. Otherwise, they're designed to lighten your wallet by several hundred to several thousand more than equivalently fast PC hardware. On the other hand, compared to everything else in life, the cost isn't that great so possibly I am simply too frugal. Also a bit fearful of vista bloat at this point but haven't had the time (cough)courage(cough) to give it a look yet.

[l_boyle]

Why on earth did you think that?

Evidently you subscribe to the idiom that anything from outside the US must be evil. There's a whole world out there, but you can't be afraid to learn.

Tim B.

Who? Me? What are you talking about here?:confused:

[Tim B]

It is dangerous (and moreover, foolish) to believe that there is only one way to do things. Whatever system you use, there is no harm in being well informed about other systems.

If you want a good example of the afore-mentioned attitude, check the responses about the french government changing to Linux. it makes interesting reading.

Tim B.

[l_boyle]

Tim B,

That may be different... Like different stroke for different people... Just like anythng else, automobiles, soaps, food, televisions, video games systems.. Everyone has their preferences... For the value, quaility, looks, and ease of using a product...

[marshmat]

Otherwise, they're designed to lighten your wallet by several hundred to several thousand more than equivalently fast PC hardware. On the other hand, compared to everything else in life, the cost isn't that great so possibly I am simply too frugal.
I'd have to dispute that, to be honest.... my sister's MacBook cost about $200-$300 less than my Toshiba, but does a lot of comparable tasks- booting up, loading the file browser, opening a word processor- in half the time or less. I haven't got around to actually benchmarking them yet but I was amazed just how fast this apparently low-end Mac really was.
It is dangerous (and moreover, foolish) to believe that there is only one way to do things. Whatever system you use, there is no harm in being well informed about other systems.
Agreed 100%. I use Windows because the software my department and team use is mostly Windows-based. I used to do a lot of graphics and publishing, and so worked with Macs a lot there. Now I'm having to learn Unix to work with things like multi-processor Fluent runs on high-end machinery. Friends are going gung-ho on Linux. Much more dangerous to get stuck thinking one OS is good for everything, than to learn a bit about all of them and pick the right one for the job.

[charmc]

Windows XP with SP2. I haven't considered alternates; found XP to be a huge improvement over 98, although a memory and HD capacity hog. I'm pretty happy with XP; I've tried OS X on a friend's EMAC, found it easy, quick to boot, but lacking in applications for my industry.

My biggest beef is with Norton. Since being sold, Norton has changed from a helpful security system to a bloated, slow, annoying group of programs with enough annoyingly automatic and hard to delete features to qualify it as spyware, spyware that slows down all other applications while the price just keeps on growing.... I've tried AVG antivirus freeware on another computer with broadband access and found the protection superb and ease of use superior. Norton may just not be renewed by me.

[Tim B]

I have recently installed Kubuntu 6.10 (Edgy Eft). I have to say, it's rather nice, but I think that the advantage of Linux is that you can choose the system that works for you.

Tim B.

[Raggi_Thor]

Vista is very pretty, but is hideously in-efficient, can't survive without connection to the net, and picks up viruses faster than a prostitute.
All in all, the new linux distributions (particularly with KDE 3.5) are nicer, faster and more reliable than XP or Vista. When I did Beta-test vista, within about two weeks it had become so slow to surf the web that it was faster to use a RISC-PC built in 1996.
Tim B.

And all cad programs that use OpenGL run at half the speed or less compared to xp...

[Bergalia]

I still have that truism sticker on my bumper: 'Windows 98 = Mac '88.'
I run four Macs in the family, two desk top - two laptop - trouble-free. And one PC (for kids homework - bloody schools still insist on their use) but have had nothing but trouble with it despite a fortune in 'spyware' - 'anti-virus ware' etc etc.
When the kids leave school I'll probably use it as base for a mooring bouy. :(

[Tim B]

Just run Linux instead of Windows, how much can they need? Word-processing, pdf, and internet? That's wrapped up in ANY standard distro these days.

Tim B.

[Raggi_Thor]

It should be illegal for schools and other public services to insist on one specific OS or one specific "Office" package. In Norway OpenOffice is translated to Norwegian and I hope that will be the platform for most schools. We also had an organization called "SkoleLinux" who translated a popular Linux distribution to Norwegian and made a simple installer on a CD. I think this was available for all schools four or five years ago. BUT still you may find public documents saved as ms word docs...

[Mychael]

I use to build up my own Pc's. It was fun and I learned a bit.. Setting up SCSI drives etc. SATA/Raid now almost as fast as SCSI.
I might be wrong but I think SCSI was an Apple/Mac invention?? Very good stuff in it's day.
Anyway I'm past that now and when budget allows I want to go MAC, I've posted elsewhere that my mate with his 5yr old Mac has never/ever had any system freezes or crashes. From a home use perspective a Mac will fit my needs.

AVG free is a great anti virus program, Best I've found so far, it works and does not seem to cause problems with anything else.

Microsoft force upgrading by stopping support for older stuff after a few years. I have a perfectly functional 8 yo old keyboard that I cannot get drivers for but I refuse to be forced to buy a new one so I put up with it in basic function mode.

I wonder why Win98 which was stable when new now has become shakey, I feel it's because Microsoft write their new stuff to favour their latest OS and as we download updates etc it puts more and more strain on the older OS. I run XP pro service pack 2, it's not perfect, I've had freezes and crashes and after a few months it just gets slower and it accumulates it's own self written crap.

I think Microsoft writes programs that are bigger as opposed to smarter, they rely on technology making memory etc bigger/faster and cheaper to buy.

I also think one of the reason Pc's get viruses is because a lot of people dislike Bill Gates way of doing things, apart from him being rich and the tall poppy syndrome I think a lot of people aknowledge the way Microsoft operates is not really good but are forced into PC's by market saturation.

Mychael

[Bergalia]

It should be illegal for schools and other public services to insist on one specific OS or one specific "Office" package.


With you all the way Raggi.
I fell in love with Apple/Mac virtually at the dawn of mankind (it being so simple a system that even an old fart like me could understand - one - or at most two clicks and my programme opens...) Consequently I've acquired a series of Macs - upgrading when the cash came to hand. From Mac Classic (a whole 2mb of memory), through 575, eMac, to a G4 (my current machine) and a couple of laptops - blackberry and an ibook, all in working order and not one having experienced any problems. I love 'em.
Unfortunately the colleges my girls attend dish out all their homework on PCs - hence my whimpering excuse for purchasing one. (And jeez - haven't we had problems...viruses galore (thank god my wife is a nurse) and more trojans than you can wave a spear at...)
On questioning the college about their choice of system I was told - Microsoft makes all schools and colleges an offer they can't refuse...:(

[marshmat]

I also think one of the reason Pc's get viruses is because a lot of people dislike Bill Gates way of doing things, apart from him being rich and the tall poppy syndrome I think a lot of people aknowledge the way Microsoft operates is not really good but are forced into PC's by market saturation. It's always been cool to bash the big guy. A related theory I've heard from a lot of people with industry connections is that certain security-software companies may or may not be writing and/or releasing certain mild viruses to ensure continued demand for their (mostly Win32-based) wares.
Unfortunately the colleges my girls attend dish out all their homework on PCs Thankfully my school has moved beyond being OS-specific (well, except for engineers, all our CAD, math and coding kit only runs on Win32) and uses the same expensive, slow, platform-independent system for almost everyone's Web-based class stuff. (A lot of profs got sick of it and now just post everything to little HTML pages.)
Microsoft makes all schools and colleges an offer they can't refuse They also give away a great heap of free stuff to anyone who takes courses that focus on their products. Go into computer or electrical engineering, take some comp.sci courses, and there's a good bet you'll be able to get Vista, Office and other MS_crap for free, just as an added incentive to become proficient with administering their own systems instead of working with Linux. Which Microsoft now considers a VERY big threat, much more so than they let on in public.

[Mychael]

[QUOTE=marshmat;136786]It's always been cool to bash the big guy. A related theory I've heard from a lot of people with industry connections is that certain security-software companies may or may not be writing and/or releasing certain mild viruses to ensure continued demand for their (mostly Win32-based) wares.

Yeah, that's always been a question.
I could see how maybe one or two really clever nerds might do that to prove how clever they are but on such a large scale??
I cannot think back to when viruses first appeared. Can anyone recall how soon after viruses became an issue that anti-virus software became available?

First virus I ever heard of was the "Pacman" virus and there were already anti-virus programs around then.

It becomes a game for the companies, just think how their business would be if their particular program fixes a virus that another brand cannot.
It arouses my suspicions a bit when brand "A" virus checker cannot fix a problem but brand "B" does.
Now I am not a programmer but I would have thought the basics of writing a fixer program would be the same, you have to start from about the same place so it follows to my reasoning that any brand should be capable of doing the same job as any other brand. That there are differences seems (to me) to point to companies trying to nobble one another.

Mychael

[Mychael]

Following on from my line of thinking, it just occured to me that my "clever Nerd" theory has holes in it. Even though there are a lot less Macs around surely it would be a major kudo to write Mac viruses.
So,, either the Mac OS is so tight no-one can crack it or,,, given that the pc market is so huge the viruses get written for pc's to cash in on the money cow of anti-virus software.

Mychael

[Bergalia]

there are a lot less Macs around....Mychael

Dammit Mychael - how many times do I have to tell you - 'Fewer' Macs...NOT less.Fewer for numbers; Less for volume...Even so, your point taken :)

[Mychael]

duhhh, "please explain". Oh never mind I've re-read your post , I get it now.

So I could make a shorter post so that would be a "less" but if made less posts, that would be "fewer".. lol

Mychael

[Bergalia]

duhhh, "please explain".
Mychael

Well Pauline, it's like this... (Aussie members will understand...):p

[Mychael]

Hmm, but I could have said there were "less" Macs produced last year then there were pc's. As in the volume of Macs produced was Less.. Hey I'm getting the hang of this now.

Mychael

[Tim B]

It's a well-known that major manufacturers release software to cure problems they created in the first place. what do you think bug-fixes in commercial software are? Especially the ones with a rolling update license.

There are probably a few rather clever people around who have written the odd virus or dialler (though possibly just to prove they could). I remember viruses being around in the days of the early ACORN systems. Having a ROM-based OS, there wasn't much the virus could do that re-formatting the hard drive wouldn't sort out.

The old Win/Mac/Linux debate is a funny one. Partly because Linux & Mac are not really dissimilar systems, just Linux is an awful lot cheaper (well, free...). One thing is for certain, though, Microsoft's business model is STILL unacceptable. Has anyone noticed thier WinXP system slow down after the release of VISTA? Several of my friends have reported weirdness, and I'm not really surprised.

Oddly enough there are Windows advocates who actually genuinely believe that VISTA is great. I'll bet they're using a system not dissimilar to the 64bit Pentium4 one I built recently. It runs Mandriva Linux 2007 and it is blisteringly fast. On averarge it is 1.8 times faster than my existing machine (2.4GHz P4) on real tasks. Per clock cycle it is 38.5% percent faster than my existing machine. You'd need that sort of power for VISTA though, otherwise the OS would feel a like treacle.

Linux is free (or relatively free) of viruses, because they can only be run as user programs, therefore, they cannot corrupt system files (owned by root) or other users files. Microsoft has tried to copy this ownership mechanism, but has failed miserably.

Incidentally, there is some interesting discusions about DRM (digital rights management) at the moment. This is really because MS and RIAA are not fond of anybody else making more money than them. UNfortunately, the record companies don't seem to be too happy about it, and are now selling DRM-free music.

So, there are lots of problems in the computer industry, most of them because of Microsoft.

To really stick the knife in, the MS website runs on Apache. Apache is an open-source LINUX web server. So MS trusts it's own products doesn't it?

Tim B.

[Bergalia]

Hmm, but I could have said there were "less" Macs produced last year then there were pc's. As in the volume of Macs produced was Less..
Mychael

Nearly there Mychael: 'There were fewer Macs produced last year, because the volume produced was less than that of PCs...'

Where, oh where is Professor Higgins when you need him...:(

[marshmat]

Incidentally, there is some interesting discusions about DRM (digital rights management) at the moment.
That's got to be one of the biggest inherent flaws in Vista, is its disgusting built-in DRM "features". Try playing a blu-ray or HD.DVD disc in a Vista machine- apparently it'll (a) degrade the picture quality to normal dvd levels, and (b) use most of your cpu power to run 30 checks per second on the integrity of the signal path to ensure it's not being diverted or copied. I call bullshit.
I know exactly one person who has Vista and likes it. Developers worldwide are peeved that the APIs are either sparse, worthless or unavailable. The OS alone is over twelve gigabytes and virtually nothing more than a year or two old can run all its features. Even many new machines have trouble. And Vista was over a year late. A conspiracy to make old, fully functional equipment obsolete?
(On a semi-related note, I found out the hard way this month that the new IE7 and Windows Media 11 that are designed for Vista are NOT fully compatible with XP. This after Windows automatically installed both without asking me, and promptly went into memory-leak and CPU runaway whenever you tried to do too much at once in either.)

[Tim B]

That's why we use Firefox and either Zinf or VLC (all free).

Tim B.

[masalai]

Time for an update, Go to the Ubuntu website and ask for a free (literally) copy to be posted to you, for free!!!.

No viruses, as the 'community' seals any potential hac access for viruses within days of it being found. Linux works differently to MS and is less at risk by design as is Apple - both derived from the Unix concept.

I have a virus scanner so I don't pass on to the poor ******* user.

I now have "wine" so I can run DelftShip & FreeShip as if it were a Linux application. No problems. Greater flexability. Better hardware interface & control. Can read & write most MS & apple file formats.

What is your problem? Mine works, does your OS & apps meet your needs & expectations? I use a 'flavour' of linux called mint. I am thinking of migrating to "ubuntu studio" soon. enjoy................

[Mychael]

That's why we use Firefox and either Zinf or VLC (all free).

Tim B.


I use firefox (much better then IE) but what is Zinf & VLC?
Also swapped to Mozilla Thunderbird in place of Outlook Express. I think on that one I prefer OE if it behaved itself (which it doesn't) hence Thunderbird.

Mike

[masalai]

Mychael, go the whole distance & you will not regret your actions.

I currently use "Linux mint" which uses the ubuntu repositories (it contains all the plugins & codecs to play all music and all region video), I am toying with the idea of going to "ubuntu studio" which may be similarly equipped but includes all quality software for processing video, sound - - synthesisres, drum kits, music mixing (28 channels), & lots of other stuff, and still images, all at near professional levels. Have a look, it is free and will load for dual boot automatically in most cases ???

[the1much]

i run windows,,i have mozilla firefox,, the ole lady uses IE,,,but she can only do what i have programmed to be "allowed",,,,and i have a "handfull" of "toys" on here that im pretty sure unless your some computer genius ,,,your not even gonna "find" me on the internet ,,hehe ;)

[the1much]

i think you need to add,," what kind of comp. are you using,,,,because on junk like mine,,,everything stinks,,hehe :D

[masalai]

I have voted?, but, but, but I have two machines running Linux? do I get a vote for each machine?

Mornin Jim?

[the1much]

mornin as,,, i just got an email saying posted today,,,hehe ,, i think jeff is "screening his calls" hehe ;)

[masalai]

Year, well I posted tomorrow - your time hehehe

[the1much]

does this thingy tell ya there was an update if someone JUST does the "poll" ,,,says there was new posting!!!! alright,, time to think bout false advertising,,hehe ;):D;)

[the1much]

nope,,,it says Mas. did,,hahaha,,,,Jeff,, your jus messing with our heads ,, aint ya,,hehe ;)



1 Attachment(s) You are subscribed to this thread Go to first new post Poll: What is your OS -- windows, mac, linux? (Multi-page thread 1 2 3 4)
Jeff

Today 09:43 AM
by masalai Go to last post

[masalai]

Jeees Jim you good folk must be caught in a time-warp of bygone days? :D:D:D

Anyway, Hi from the future...

[the1much]

your in cahoots with him aint ya,, :D

[Jeff]

I'm sorry - the label fell off the time-warp button... I'll toggle it the other way.

--if that cat would just stay in the workstation and leave the router alone...

[masalai]

See Jim, It is all your fault :D:D:D:D - Jeff, don't "fix it" - be a shame if Jim had nothing to complain about...... :P

[the1much]

hehehe ,,,, well i figure if i "pick" on jeff,,, i'll make sure to be "nice" ,, and it keeps me from stalking others,,hehe :D
and i knew there had to be brains "behind" the scene,,,,HI JEFFS CAT :D:D

[masalai]

Jim, It is your cat, look at post 46 above hehehe

[the1much]

man,,,,dudesss,,,this is soooooo freaky,,,,,,,im like having some wicked flashbacks,,,,haha,,damned cat :D:D

[masalai]

Jeeees, seems Jeff wants me to revive this thread? (posts to read in my "user CP")

Updated OS to Linux Mint xfce 5 to see how fast this lightweight can be (designed for older or "underpowered" machines (intel cpu?) hehehe

[BHOFM]

Ours us windows all the way, and as long as I am here I
might as well show off a little:

My study:

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4038/dscf0675dt4.jpg

Windows systems work fine if you follow the directions:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9115/23101os5.jpg

And just a couple of pretty pictures to look at:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7173/hellfreezesoverhk0.jpg

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/4935/falsepass2tf.jpg

[aprilpaxton]

Well, windows, although i've always had this hankering to use mac...

[masalai]

April, go half way using your existing box, download ubuntu or my preference Linux Mint which is basically ubuntu with all the plugins and codecs (not supposedly "legal" in USA?) see here http://distrowatch.com/ or http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php - - the "main" or "x64" has all the good bits and the "lite" is the "legal version" for US.

The CD's are self booting and whilst running from CD will not interfere with your hard disk - once you iniyiate the install you have a choice of dual boot or overwrite and use the linux filesystem and OS (you can still read and write to most windows filesystems and applications....

[zorton01]

Very happy to use Ubuntu from 3 months now. I had enough of Windows, updates messages everyday, antivirus updates, alerts, trial versions and so on. Everything stopped from that day. Need a CAD program? Just upload one from the linux program list. General thinking is that traditional software cannot be installed in Linux. FALSE!! I had my emule, skype, could have messenger but have better linux version (Pidgin). Installation were not so complicated, just take the time to learn a bit and try it! Everything is free

[Stumble]

I made the switch over to Macs about three years ago when my brand new Dell crashed and between them and Microsoft noone could figure out who was to blame (read pay for) it. Since then I have never been happier, everything works, I have never had either a hardware or software problem that wasn't user caused, and now with 3 machines running 24/7 networked everything still is flawless.

Not bad for the guy who used to think IM was cool, but to flakey to keep up and running.

[CGN]

Win XP for 2D/3D work, non connected to internet

second PC (used P4 PC) dual booting Linux Ubuntu/winxp for internet use and media. 80% ubuntu use

USB stick with a lot of PC utilities so i don't install those on my machines

[masalai]

CGN, just get rid of windows XP et al, - - whatever you want will run in "wine" and does not rely on regular updates to keep running and will keep those "windows specific" games and "SPECIAL" applications up and running long after XP ceases to be supported.... Wine, codecs and plugins are included in Linux Mint which is derived from ubuntu... I use Mint and everything works and then personalise it....

[Fanie]

XP - too many different types of softwares used, I doubt other opp syst can interface them. If there was a replacement, probably 50% of all windows users will switch over tonight.

[masalai]

Fanie, stop talking "chicken".... download and try it and I guarantee you will be pleased and there is NO CHARGE for non-commercial use.... read some reviews here http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint then read about your fellow countryman /billionare who was the first civilian into space - his baby is Ubuntu, from which mint is derived but does not make it so easy to install all the propriety plugins and codecs for flash and all the myriad other sound and video players / drivers and pdf reader/writer stuff - I can watch DVD's from any region and rip and burn almost anything without those stupid American copyright laws and no cia/fbi access portals....

http://www.linuxmint.com/edition.php?id=3

[Fanie]

Hi Mas, will look wen I can. I have 300 plastic boxes that has to be milled. I would much rather spend time on the boat eh.

[masalai]

Think of it this way, you are one of the few making money which can be spent on your boat build project - don't waste it on making Bill Gates richer than necessary....

[Mychael]

Masalai. I've sent you a pm. Re: Linux mint.

Mychael

[CGN]

Can you run prosurf? or maxsurf? without crashes? or solidworks?

[marshmat]

Is Mint the way to go, do you think?

I have Debian Etch on the other side of my dual-boot machine... but it doesn't see much use. Getting it set up is a pain- the second monitor doesn't work properly, I have a printer driver but it won't install properly, actually getting to my files partition is a pain.... I know all of that should work in theory, but actually getting it to work as it should requires a lot more patience, time and technical knowledge than I have at present.

Something a little easier to get working would be wonderful. (We have some machines in one of the labs on campus that dual-boot Fedora and XP, and are somehow set up so that your browser settings, emails, etc. and even your desktop are shared between the OSes. I have no idea how that is set up but I would love to find out.)

[masalai]

What is your video card - if nvidia then Mint is the go and the driver must be installed- set up whilst you are in "administrator mode" - find a local Linux (debian/ubuntu/mint) usergroup to help you through... uninstall the dual-boot and debian etch first or have a clean windows install if you insist on retaining windows original and mint should auto set up a dual boot during the install process.. Some applications make direct calls to the cpu. this is not allowed in Linux so may not work....

If you have enough RAM and installed the driver for your graphics chipset and the above run in win 97 / XP then wine should do it - I run http://freeship-plus.pisem.su/indexEN.html, then click <support> then <downloads> button on left of screen, I use 2.95+ which is a 3.9Mb self extracting *.exe file... make a directory under /Program Files/ called Freeship , copy the file to that then execute to extract then to run execute the Freeship executable by using the C: drive browser in the meny folder under "wine" then go to the directory... - it can be done with a link but I have forgotten the sequence to call wine then the executable - uses a tild "~" in the sequence....

[marshmat]

find a local Linux (debian/ubuntu/mint) usergroup to help you through That's the easy part I think ;) The hard part is finding the patience and the time to actually work through it and get things running.

[masalai]

Think of it as seducing a new girlfriend, do it right and a love affair will grow into a lasting bond of happiness....

[Boston]

Mac all the way
you could give me a pc
but I'd just sell it for some more mac stuff

[masalai]

mac is just a pc with different software - latecomers to the "unix" like operating system which is what Linux is.... and it will run on almost ANY machine including old mac boxes....

[Mychael]

April, go half way using your existing box, download ubuntu or my preference Linux Mint which is basically ubuntu with all the plugins and codecs (not supposedly "legal" in USA?) see here http://distrowatch.com/ or http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php - - the "main" or "x64" has all the good bits and the "lite" is the "legal version" for US.

The CD's are self booting and whilst running from CD will not interfere with your hard disk - once you iniyiate the install you have a choice of dual boot or overwrite and use the linux filesystem and OS (you can still read and write to most windows filesystems and applications....


Sadly after a promising start it has ended in tears.. linuxmint ran fine from the CD, appeared to install okay,, but "oh dear"
seems it cannot cope with RAID hdd which my system used. I say used as now I cannot get XP or Linux to run.

Mychael

[masalai]

Sorry to hear about that Mychael, Linux should support RAID - maybe not in the way MS does it and the inherent issues in dual booting - - Do you have access to any user-groups - - - usually hide around local universities as Linux is the "students Unix".... and they may show you how to set it up with Linux & wine for the XP stuff....

The local TAFE - IT man is an absolute genius on Linux - - but he is in the Sunshine Coast :D:D:D - My commiserations and apologies - but it (your data and using RAID if necessary for speed and reliability?) should be recoverable and Melbourne has some pretty good Linux people too....

[Boston]

ya you have my condolences as well
rule of thumb
never run microsoft products
if you have no choice for some reason
use the flip for mac conversion programs

[Mychael]

Yep, have my tame nerd working on fixing it. Not a huge issue if I've lost nothing of my data, a real pain if I have.
Still, trying is the only way to learn.

The Linux ran fine off the cd and seemed to be good, even was passably usable speed wise from the cd alone.

Mychael

[masalai]

when playing, only thing to remember is keep backups of data up to date or be prepared to start with a clean slate.... With major surgery, may as well go the whole hogg and run your windows apps from/through 'wine' a geek acronym "Wine Is Not an Emulator" and it works well for me.... and will never get outdated when MS stops supporting XP etc...

[marshmat]

I've heard that Mint might actually support my video card (ATI mobility radeon 9000). Maybe I'll give that a shot in five weeks once the thesis is done. (Really don't want to mess with the machine until then....)

XP is driving me nuts again. For some reason, a copy of svchost.exe owned by "network service" has been taking over the CPU for about ten seconds whenever I try to access the network. New as of the last round of windows updates..... and very, very annoying. (Imagine your machine revving all its fans up and waiting for ten seconds every time you click a link on the Web....)

Did I mention I hate Windows?

Sooner or later I'll get around to finding that presentation that mysteriously vanished into nowhere a few days ago. Maybe a backup is still on the drive that threw a bearing last fall....

edit - wow, 3000 posts? I need to get out more....!

[masalai]

marshmat, Dont forget to do a backup of all your data files, emails, address book and favourites/bookmarks FIRST,,,, then use the "Main Edition" from here: http://linuxmint.com/download.php and burn it as an "iso image" so it will self boot, - - suck it and see if you like it (will self boot if you have set BIOS to boot from CD) and all OK you can install using the icon labeled such - I use the "clean start" as it seems MS-SATA drive setup is not compatible with linux and "wine" can be configured to run most XP etc stuff and the file system of linux means NO MORE DEFRAG and such "fixit" problems...

Congratulations on effectively "wasting time" :D:D:D:D a "bonus" added and due to your rep (sorry I forgot to sign) :D:D:D

ps, Find a local user-group with "Debian/Ubuntu/mint" understanding to assist you to tweak your system if necessary - otherwise fairly straight forward.... printer drivers may be "fun" if you have an unusual one - many are supported and quite often try this, remove then try that eventually gets a result - or a learning experience where "full system re-install" is the easy way out of a disaster - backup your new data first...... :D:D:D:D good luck and have fun...

[marshmat]

Oh, fun indeed Mas :)
I have a few friends who are gung-ho on Linux; several Debian fans in there so that's what I have on this one now (don't like it, though- it's always way out of date). Been through Redhat 7 and SUSE 10 on another machine.... again, never did figure out all the config tweaking. The machines at the physics lab dual-boot Fedora and XP, and are somehow set up so that diles, email, browser settings/history, even the desktop are shared between OSes. That's what I'm hoping to get to.... eventually.... Mint looks nice, maybe my poor old Toshiba will appreciate it ;)
edit - Mint is downloaded :) (in 31 minutes! 7Mbps cable is flippin' AWESOME, second only to the campus optical line) and we'll see how this goes when I get a chance to actually do it....

[masalai]

WOAH, CAUTION...... marshmat, the Toshibas had proprietory BIOS and or supplementary enhancement drivers or such that renders bootability to Linux a bloody nightmare.... be very cautious.... I will not touch Toshiba notebooks because of bad memories from earlier days....

There is a 77 page manual in *.pdf form, I got mine from a local mirror here http://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/linuxmint/stable/6/user-guide/ one of the oldest still operational "bulletin boards" from around 1977 when I first used it....

[CDK]

This picture I use as wallpaper for XP. It represents the design philosophy of most current Microsoft products, showing the flaws at the same time: you get wizzards, managers, utilities, loggers and assistants for all sorts of jobs you probably never need; every time you switch your PC on, you have to wait until they've all collected their gear and climbed on the truck. Only then you can check your inbox....

I have some experience with computers. Founded my own company back in 1969, sold it in 1994 and call myself retired since.
My favorite O/S was Digital Research Multi-user DOS: 8 simultaneous tasks on the main screen, up to 32 users connected by RS232 or Ethernet, all processing done by a single 80486 50 Mhz machine that performed faster than a single user Win-XP machine now.

[plebusmaximus]

This picture I use as wallpaper for XP. It represents the design philosophy of most current Microsoft products, showing the flaws at the same time: you get wizzards, managers, utilities, loggers and assistants for all sorts of jobs you probably never need; every time you switch your PC on, you have to wait until they've all collected their gear and climbed on the truck. Only then you can check your inbox.

The OS for the lowest common denominator? Windows updates are a nightmare.

Someone should design an app to remove all conjunktivotis?

Its a shame so much of it is tumoured into the OS like IE.

[masalai]

plebusmaximus, I like that name.... So, live up to it and run linux..... see my above posts #84 & 87 and do it :D:D:D:D It is rumoured that Bill made a big mistake in paying his "programmers" by the line... :P

[Boston]

I just stay away from any micro soft product
as they have never worked well for me

I had a really funny experience with my last and I'll never do it again Toshiba pc
it ended up in flames in front of a class off Toshiba repair men whike the instructor was in mid speech about how simple the fix was 4 this computer

I had given it to him as a class project after about ten people had tried to fix it and given every imaginable reason as to why they couldn't

it was hilarious

[plebusmaximus]

So, live up to it and run linux.

Unfortunately the silicon illuminate ensure that some specific apps that I use wont make it to the Linux OS and in some cases the the Linux based OS on MAC.

I had a really funny experience with my last and I'll never do it again Toshiba pc

It sounds like you had a unique experience as Toshiba tend to be one of the more durable manufacturers of computers.

CAD apps especially renders can put extreme load on machines more so laptops. They get very very hot.

MACs are great however PC enables customisation of hardware specific machines.

When I get a new machine Ill put Linux on the old.

With the new SDX format and Terabytes cards we'll be able to unplug OS's and plug another OS in on the same machine soon.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0901/09010803sdxc.asp

[masalai]

No need - dual boot or wine works, I prefer wine.... and with hdd now in terrabytes and SD cards quickly catching up, the screen (LCD) keyboard and mouse are the big in volume items, and the speakers... I have a 600 x 800 projector that nestles nicely in my palm, so many things are changing....

Limiting factors are cpu performance and heat dissipation - which means more energy, and I am after low (voltage/amperage) power and reduced thermal issues and an OS that is lean and elegant and does not need hundreds of widgets running in the background, just those needed for current tasks...

[CDK]

This is a useful site for WinXP users. It tells you which services you can safely remove to make the O/S more stable and less time consuming:

http://www.governmentsecurity.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1480

[marshmat]

Handy list, CDK. And it confirmed my suspicion that the DNS client (which has been running away on me and causing all sorts of hell lately) can be disabled with no ill effects.

Mas - Mint's installed and working peachy fine here. Installed in two hours with minimal attention (including some partition reworking and a boatload of software), compared to the better part of an afternoon to install Windows and all the common apps. Thanks for the tip! (I had Debian 4 on before, so I know GRUB can handle the boot sequence on this particular Toshiba.) Now to learn how to administer it....

[masalai]

tickle its tits gently and all should be apples... :D:D:D:D

On economics, have a look at post #2278 http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/global-politics-economics-lies-witchcraft-22206-152.html and the link really pissed me off about government manipulation of the markets GLOBALLY - those officials are worse than COMMUNIST dick-taters or whatever you feel is the worst type of political grouping....

[Boston]

Mas
tell me something I didnt already know

http://kirbysattler.sattlerartprint.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/nativeamericanart.jpg

Plebus
I heard that a lot, as one after another tecs opened it up and started poking around,
a look of confusion slowly coming over them
it was entertaining to say the least as that thing made monkey's out of one after another and finaly burst into flames in front of about twenty people
I suppose I may have just had a bad one
but
I learned to appreciate that machine, in time
it taught me a lot about Microsoft and cheep hardware
thing is I had several bad experiences with pc and then let a friend convince me to try it again even though I was literally on my way to the Mac store when I bumped into him ( he is some big shot for sun systems )
that thing was like the last straw
was a perfect lesson from above to be standing there when it finally went up in flames
so now I run on a Mac and all is well
never a problem
never a moment wasted on anti anything
its flip a switch and start right in

best of luck with whatever your preference

Marshmat good to hear you are up and running again

B

[Mychael]

I am convinced of that now. I use a program called mailwasher to protect my mail, I run a firewall, a virus checker (always kept up to date) and various other aftermarket things to guard me from all the holes the ms is supposed to have. In any case I just got a spam email which happens to have the name of a person (who does not use email) but I have mentioned his name in emails to another person as well as asking about this person in a yachting forum.
Coincidence? I don't think so.

Mychael

[Boston]

yikes

[Mychael]

As we have been discussing Linux I was wondering what peoples thoughts are on UBUNTO and DEBIAN? I've been doing a bit of research and they both seem to be pretty good.
I'm going to build up an old pc to try them out.

Mychael

[marshmat]

Mychael,

I had Debian "Etch" (stable version) on this machine for a while before switching to Mint last week. (Debian is maintained in three releases- currently "Etch" (stable), "Lenny" (testing) and "Sid" (unstable), I would recommend Lenny if you decide to go this way.) Several friends who are more computer-oriented than I swear by Debian. I found I spent more time swearing AT it. The stable releases are somewhat outdated and proprietary drivers can be difficult to handle. But if you really want to learn the intricacies of Linux administration, Debian is probably a good way to go. I liked it, but gave up on it mainly because of the driver issues and the tendency for stable releases to be outdated. If you don't have proprietary wireless, printer, etc. drivers and want to learn all the tricks and details, Debian is a good way to go.

Ubuntu (Debian-based) and Mint (Ubuntu-based) tend to be somewhat more user-friendly to the novice. Some of the GUI tools they add are rather useless, others are very handy. Mint is even easier to get going with than Windows, so you probably won't learn as much about the innards as you would with Debian, unless you browse developer wikis for fun in your spare time. But Ubuntu or Mint will get you up and running pretty quickly, and with a decent collection of software.

Boston et al: I assure you, I would not buy another Toshiba. Not after this thing's been in the shop time after time (speaker ground short, defective power adaptor, defective power connector, several unexplained BSoDs before I clued in and reinstalled windows from the MS disc instead of the Toshiba one, and most recently a hard drive failure). And not after the hell they gave me this week over the warranty on my DVD player- Toshiba Canada is now voiding warranties at will if they decide they don't like the store the unit was purchased from. So it's off to find a new brand for me, next time....

[masalai]

Debian is the father of Ubuntu which is the parent of Linux Mint - - so - - in using "mint" one gets the benefits of a solid lineage and ease of use from Ubuntu but improved with all codecs and plugins & propriety drivers "in the box" - - - therefore for a newbie try Mint then if you like to seriously delve into compiling your own, Debian, or RedHat....

[Mychael]

okay one more question. How about an O/S called 'Linspire'? Or if you want the free one 'Freespire' ?

Mychael

[masalai]

Not really inspired..... check out things here http://distrowatch.com/ as they have a finger on the pulse of ALL linux flavours...... and the links will connect to each distribution and reviews by whom etc.....

[Mychael]

okay, so I have mint running successfully on an old pc. (My good pc) is trashed from the attempt, had to reformat the hdd's lost everything.

Anyway on the old machine mint loaded easily and runs fine but I cannot get any of my peripherals to work, cannot find drivers.

Got linux drivers for my canon printer and that works after a fashion but has no printer maintenance/adjusment controls in linux.

No drivers for my netcom adsl modem, or logitech cam or microtek scanner.
Any suggestions?

Also cannot seem to find any system maintenence/housekeeping controls in the Linux o/s.

Mychael

[masalai]

Check with the cannon website/help sections and suggest that since Linux has more users than Mac and they support mac, so that it is high time that they provided drivers (at least on their website as does brother printers..... (I use brother c130 & c135? printers and download drivers from their - brother- website) - I used to use cannon but went brother because of the drivers and it is a scanner/copier/printer function I wanted.... The installation process for printers within linux will give results eventually just try similar machine drivers provided by the linux community....

Contact your broadband modem provider and ask what is the local "web-address" so you can do adjustments from your web-browser.... (tell them you run Linux Mint/ubuntu/debian lineage OS)....

Open "Synaptic package manager" and use its search function.... by typing in full name of device....

No defrag.... all else is usually automatically done look in all menue sections most of that will be in "administrator" section or "control centre" - - I am no expert, and I just try it, if it looks like it may do what I want????

[Mychael]

Well here I am sending my first message from a Linux machine. Never found drivers for the modem but on a chance I plugged in a USB wireless connector that I used on another machine and much to my surprise Linux found that. So now I am online.

Much easier as I was able to get into the Linux site and then let Mint install do the work for me.

Still cannot get printer or scanner to work and the O/S does not see the FDD, also has a strange way of handling a 2nd HDD.

Other impressions,,, Certainly can run effectively on much less memory then windows would be asking for.
Most things are fairly intuitive to do although I would have to say they are just different, not better the a properly working Windows O/s.

I miss the start keys in the windows toolbar for quick loading a program, I find it a pain having to go through the Mint menu every time.

It loads faster, shuts down faster. It's versions of the MSN chat programs are workable though not as good. Firefox (which I had on my windows machine anyway) saved some of my bacon, I had fox marks installed and it found all my current bookmarks.

This will make a good backup machine.

Mychael

[masalai]

Good for you Mychael, You can set small icons on the "menu bar" and they will work with one click, or you can place the icons on your desktop by dragging from the menu and it is done! from there it is a double click. FDD is a conundrum - got to be set up in BIOS first, I think???? - it recognised on my notebook many years ago but I do not know about now? do a search in the "package manager".... - I just bought a usb FDD to transfer wife's data across - so I will be doing this next month....

[Luckless]

This poll is highly biased, as a Comp.Sci. Student I tend to have both my windows and linux boxes running at the same time, using both about equally. While I might get a little more actual use TIME on windows for games and web browsing, most of the actual work tends to happen under linux.

[masalai]

Luckless, you do not even need windows/vista as games for that will play using "wine" as does freeship and various clones of that package. Also Linux has the original (similar visually) tetris and a lot of other stuff now lacking in windows...

[Mychael]

Some time down the track now I am still alternating between Windows and Linux.. I put a new HDD drive in the Linux box, partitioned it (that was a bit of trial and error) and now run four different Linux Distros as takes my fancy to play with. Although Mint 6 Main edition seems to be the one I use the most.
Tracked down a Linux users groups (aint many around) and soon found out that very few (read none) PC repairers handle Linux.. As a Linux user your out on your own.
The Windows machine has become horribly flakey, really giving me the irrits, it keeps finding a new way to crash. If you were a conspiracy theorist you'd say Microsoft was doing something in their updates.. I have not installed anything new in the last 3 yrs (except Microsoft updates) and my hardware is no more then 4 yrs old.. So why should my XP system which was once very stable now be getting very unstable... Weird.

Mychael

[Luckless]

Luckless, you do not even need windows/vista as games for that will play using "wine" as does freeship and various clones of that package. Also Linux has the original (similar visually) tetris and a lot of other stuff now lacking in windows...

True, but doing DirectX development work is less than fun under Wine. Wine isn't perfect, and several programs I need for different things run horribly under it, or simply fail to run at all.

Linux is good for tools I use in school, but games and other things are just far easier to work with on Windows, and I don't need to worry about things.

[masalai]

Because Bill G needs more money, - trying to induce you to buy vasta vista:D:D:D

[marshmat]

Ahh, but Vista's already dead, sacrificed on the altar of Windows 7 which is scheduled for release this fall (read: next summer).

I never cease to be amazed at how quickly Windows grows. Vista takes up five times the disk space of WinXPP, but I have yet to become aware of any genuinely new functionality. The core architecture is completely different, the GUI is prettier, but it still does essentially the same thing.

I wish I could use Linux for everything (I have Ubuntu on the other half of this machine, and love it). Unfortunately, WINE is nowhere near all it's cracked up to be.

[BillyDoc]

I have come to positively despise windows, yet I have to use it myself for some expensive legacy programs I own. I absolutely refuse to buy new ones and compound the problem, though. If the program won't run on Linux, I won't be using it.

Just this last week my wife asked me to remove Vista from her new HP laptop (HP HDX16t) and re-install windows XP. Vista was giving her nothing but grief. She had begged HP to sell her a laptop with XP loaded, but they wouldn't. Like a fool, I told her that if it was really awful (it is) we would blow it away and load XP for her. She has to use windows for her work.

No problem, I told her.

So, we backed up all the important stuff, made the "recovery disks" and I nuked the hard drive with DBAN. Then the fun began.

XP wouldn't load. It gave me an error message saying I had a virus or something on the hard drive and that I should run CHKDSK /F. Naturally, there was no way to actually do this.

After hours of searching on the web I narrowed the problem down to the SATA drive on the laptop needing a driver. Windows XP let's you hit F6 when it first starts up to be able to add such a driver, so I went to the HP site and downloaded their SATA driver for this laptop and XP.

I tried putting this driver on a CD, and when it came time to install it just popping the XP disk out and the driver CD in . . . but no luck, it had to be on a floppy disk, on a computer with no floppy drive.

So I borrowed a USB floppy drive, and that seemed to work! XP loaded it and . . . gave me the BSOD a few minutes later with the same error message.

More research. Now I find that I have to first disable the SATA driver that is built into the BIOS. So I go back to setup and, guess what, there is no way to disable the SATA driver in the BIOS, or do much of anything except set the time/date and a password. This laptop has been designed to only allow Vista to be loaded.

I ended up having to re-install Vista, which is totally unreliable.

For my own computer I use SuSE Linux and love it. For windows programs I still have an ancient copy of windows 2000 pro and dual-boot into it when needed. Win2K runs pretty well if you isolate it and don't let it near the Internet, because you can skip all that anti-virus overhead. It's old enough so that it doesn't have drivers for modern Ethernet hardware, so it doesn't know it's there and can't call mama and report all my private information either, like it used to.

If anyone knows how to beat HP and Micro$haft on the Vista thing, please let me know!

One thing for sure, though, I will not be buying any more HP products.

BillyDoc

[masalai]

BillyDoc,
I asume that in your case (a purchase failing to do as advertised/claimed, you can return it... I know HP do present laptops with linux installed, maybe a google search will produce some answers for you in USA... Because of your "Copyright laws & patents in USA & Japan" the best Linux versions are not recommended as prosecution may result... I use Linux Mint "gloria" Main edition and do not miss XP (the last OS from Bill G I used, before it got updated to something else....) I can read and write pdf and most MSOffice file-types as well as the native Open Office formats.. Mozilla Firefox and Thunderbird mail work fine and all their files are in my main user directory which means backup is easy... I am sure the package manager can find something to replace your "expensive" MS apps or else something similar has been ported to linux for a similar fee to your "expensive proprietary app...

[BillyDoc]

Actually, Mas, HP gave us 30 days and then . . . no return. Unfortunately, we thought we could get it sorted out, but this does not seem to be the case. The time got away before we tried to return it. And, of course, Microsoft isn't about to guarantee their products to actually work.

I do use Linux for almost everything, but I also have some programs that I have to run on Windows. The main one being Hypermill, a program that I had to pay $18,000 for!!! Without it I can't use a CNC milling machine I have. And most of it doesn't work as advertised, and never did. Again, no returns. Bastards. I'd love to sell them a car under the same conditions. They wanted me to pay them another thousand a year for "service" to get their shitty software to do specific projects. I refused, and continue to limp along with it. I'm not about to give them MORE money. With lots of trial and error I can usually get it to do something useful, barely.

Bugs for Bucks, the American way to do business.

[masalai]

If it does not do as it is supposed to do, A) false advertising, B) misrepresentation of a product (almost like a new car which is UNROADWORTHY), and I am sure you could drum up some more issues and get the local TV show to run with it? Works here in Australia, but then we are a backward little third tier country... :D:D:D:D

SHIT 18K - at that price they should include the hardware to run it on - No wonder America is falling down????

[BillyDoc]

Oh, that software was falsely advertised all right, but you should read those EULA documents some time. There is NO recourse for the buyer. They could probably be busted in court, but who has the money to do it?

I just don't do business with them any more. I've tried to get someone interested in an open source project, but so far no luck. I even dropped a project a few years ago that would have involved buying a very expensive milling machine (a DME product) because the software to run it cost twice what the mill cost! When I pointed out to the rep that it would be a good idea for the companies selling these machines to sponsor an open source effort I just got a blank stare in return.

I still think there is an opportunity for some hot programmer there, just couple a tool-path program to some established program like Rhino, or start from scratch. I have seen some feeble attempts at this, but nothing usable for real-world complex projects. I would think that the milling machine manufacturers would love to get the software costs down and would pay someone handsomely to do it. It makes their products much easier to buy, after all. In my case it made the difference between a sale and no sale. Go price a 5 axis CNC machine sometime and you'll see the scale I'm talking about.

[marshmat]

I've been through the exact same Vista-to-XP problem you were ranting about there, BillyDoc, although with a Toshiba in my case. Damned BIOS was hardwired to screw up any attempt to change the SATA driver. That's another firm I won't be buying from anytime soon.

There are only a handful of apps that keep me tied to XP. Unfortunately, they're all my main ones- Rhino, Sibelius, a few specialized scientific apps. I'm slowly tracking down Linux versions for a lot of the stuff I use, but installation and configuration can be a bit of a pain sometimes. (Still can't get the 3dconnexion SpaceNavigator to work properly on Linux, for example.)

[BillyDoc]

Hi Matt,

Did you ever find a work-around?

BillyDoc

[marshmat]

No... we gave up and put Vista back on the poor little thing after the better part of a day. If I were a pro IT guy, that would have been $350 in billing time to get a $700 computer back to the state it was in when I first touched it ;)

[wet feet]

I still think there is an opportunity for some hot programmer there, just couple a tool-path program to some established program like Rhino, or start from scratch. I have seen some feeble attempts at this, but nothing usable for real-world complex projects. I would think that the milling machine manufacturers would love to get the software costs down and would pay someone handsomely to do it. It makes their products much easier to buy, after all. In my case it made the difference between a sale and no sale. Go price a 5 axis CNC machine sometime and you'll see the scale I'm talking about.

Have you taken a look at RhinoCAM?You could have bought Rhino plus the CAM extension several times for your original outlay.Not sure if it would work under WINE or similar.

[BillyDoc]

Hi wet feet,

I haven't looked at that market for about ten years now because I'm plugging along with the software I already own and know how to use. But when I bought Hypermill I don't think Rhino existed, or if it did I didn't know about it. I had to buy Mechanical Desktop to be able to do the job I had at that time, plus Hypermill. At least I made a profit overall . . . and I'm hoping to retire in a few months now, so new software is not going to happen in that area.

Now I use Rhino for all sorts of things, and love it. I think it's quite unusual for this sort of software, it almost always works. Out of curiosity, though, have you tried RhinoCAM? What kind of luck did you have with it?

BillyDoc

[BillyDoc]

Hi Matt,

I feel your pain! It was more than the better part of a day for me to end up in exactly the same place as you.

In the process of doing all this, though, I did seem to write to the disk with various linux bootable cds (Knoppix, Gpartid, DBAN) . . . which makes me think that I could probably load Linux successfully, if I could find all the necessary drivers. Also, the linux CoreBoot program seems to be coming along and we may be able to flash the BIOS with a real system before too long. My wife will retire in about 18 months now (it was going to be last week, but she had a change of plans) and then she won't need windows at all.

I would bet a bunch that Micro$haft paid HP and Toshiba to make their BIOS "Vista friendly" exclusively. Maybe we should file a complaint with the European commission that is looking into their monopoly practices.

BillyDoc

[marshmat]

I'm curious to hear about RhinoCAM too.
Rhino under WINE is a royal pain in the neck, though. Tweak it, tweak it more, it just won't run.
For small parts at the old solar car shop, we used to use MasterCAM, which was generally pretty good (except on the rare occasion when someone would have it lift the tool out of the work and move at high speed to another area... neglecting to think about the hardened steel clamp that would be holding the piece down somewhere between those points...).

Microsoft knows better than to pay OEMs to make their hardware OS-specific. Of course, a very good per-copy price for OEM volume licensing can certainly be negotiated if you're a large OEM, with certain terms to protect such a contract from being undercut by competitors.... and Microsoft certainly doesn't feel obligated to come up with new drivers to make XP compatible with new hardware....

[BillyDoc]

Hi Matt,

I've heard good things about MasterCAM as well. But when I was shopping for a program to generate tool paths I already had Mechanical Desktop so wanted something compatible with that (which MasterCAM is).

I went ahead and designed the part I wanted to make (a very complex injection molding mold with oddly curved surfaces) and took the MD file to a trade show in Chicago on a disk. I then went to the various vendors selling these tool path programs and asked them to generate a tool path for the part to demo their programs. Every one of them failed, except for Hypermill. So, that's what I bought.

Then I found all the bugs. And of course they wouldn't fix them, I had to "upgrade," or pay "maintenance fees." You know the rest.

Ah, but I know the answer to the tool clamp problem. I've discovered it many times, actually. Just use carbide cutting tools! The clamps snap them right off when they hit. It's like having really expensive fuses.

BillyDoc

[wet feet]

My experience with RhinoCAM only goes as far as downloading the evaluation version last autumn and trying to generate toolpaths.It seemed good and had the project for which it was intended not been put on ice due to the economic downturn,it would probably have been in use by now.
I'm a bit out of touch with MasterCAM,but if you worked through their tutorials there was an exercise to teach the process for avoiding clamps.The previous remarks about maintenance apply to their way of doing business and if you had a specific additional module,it might not work after an upgrade of the core package.Of course you can buy a fix.

[Sheepy]

Mepis! (http://www.mepiscommunity.org/) It just works.

[Jenny Giles]

XP is stable and that is a big plus for me. I still use Excel 97 because I don't need anything fancier for spreadsheet work.