2-strokes illegal in 2007?

[blared]

I read it in a magazine that the 2 stroke outborads will be illegal in 2007 is that true?

[marshmat]

As far as I know, two-strokes have not, and will not, be banned. What is happening, is that newly built engines will have to meet much stricter emissions requirements than in the past. Among the new standards (which aren't all that new, they've been publically available for years), unburned hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, and other pollutants must be greatly reduced. It is very difficult to get a traditional two-stroke to run clean enough to meet the new regs, and so some manufacturers may simply give up on these older motors. But I'm pretty sure you won't be forced to throw out your existing engines.

[blared]

I did some search and i found out that it's only going to be illegal for dealers to sell them.. :)

[bilgeboy]

Interesting question. Imagine your local congressman thinking about all the angry guys with chain saws marching on DC.

I am the not too proud owner of an '89 Evinrude 225 for about a week, now. Its attached to a custom center console I wanted for those strictly fishing trips when I didn't wan't to take the floating condo out. I launched today, and it smoked like Cheech and Chong, and heated up so quick I had to shut 'er down and borrow a manual from a friend. My brother was busting my chops that it will be illegal in a year, anyway, might as well get a new engine. I'm alright around an inboard diesel, but this is clearly another animal all together. Yikes.

Wish I could afford a new 4 stroke right about now! I'll have a go at her, and probably will be alright around an evinrude in a month or so.

Mike

[safewalrus]

Guess this is only the good old US of A, ain't heard of it elsewhere (and more to the point could you control it?) Will it only cover marine engines or does it cover the lot - phew that would be fun - like trying to stop an ayatollah in full rant! Only one way to do that (it's a good way!!)

[tom kane]

What is all the fuss about two strokes being more liable to be less clean running than four strokes?Wet sump diesel two strokes have been around a long time (did great service in war machines) and are no worse than wet sump four strokes,and are lighter and very efficient.The four stroke outboards available now are not very impressive,and are a lot heavier than two strokes,try lifting a modern four stroke 15 HP some time, the easy portability has now gone.Probably we will see an about face to efficient two strokes using much of the new technology now available.They would be great in autos,especialy with Alcohol and Hydrogen, Gas, type fuels.

[Ike]

I have checked the EPA's and CARB's web site and this is simply not true. The EPA and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) have set emission standards for outboard (and the inboards are a coming) that are very difficult to meet. But every time this has happend the industry has come out with new 2 strokes that meet the standards. In fact there are some 2 strokes on the market that already meet the 2007 standards.

What you're see is the result of rumors that have developed because of efforts in California by certain factions to outlaw 2 strokes. They have been consistently defeated. Some local jurisdictions in California have passed ordinances banning 2 strokes but as far as I know all of those have been overturned.

[Thunderhead19]

Evinrude is johnny on the spot. Check out their emissions rating. Exactly the same as a competetive 4 stroke...

[longliner45]

somethings up..why all of the sudden all these 4 strokes coming out?,,,,,,,,they have had the tecknology for 40 years.

[kach22i]

What you're see is the result of rumors that have developed because of efforts in California by certain factions to outlaw 2 strokes.
Sounds right to me. I did a lot of Google searching so that I would have something to contribute, and most of the articles I found dealt with California law. I did not post what I found because it inconclusive or overwhelming.

[Mychael]

I own a stroker for my dinghy as I could not afford a 4 stroke. I did note in the spec sheets (in the smaller motors at least) that there is very little weight difference between the 2 and 4's. In some cases little over 1 kilo.
I wonder if any 2 stroke no matter how sophisticated could ever match a 4 in quietness and smoothness.

Mychael

[safewalrus]

No problem! just turn it off, use as a fishing weight and row! it'll do wonders for your health (I'm now permanently knackered):p

[Ike]

Longliner said somethings up..why all of the sudden all these 4 strokes coming out?,,,,,,,,they have had the tecknology for 40 years.

Because some companies such as Honda, saw 4 stroke as the easiest and cheapest way to go. They can easily adapt the technology from their cars to 4 stroke outboards. However, others such as Mercury, didn't see it that way. Since they have billions invested in 2 stroke technology they decided to stick with two stroke. What some companies did was buy existing patent rights. That's what OMC did and it wasn't very good.

[Jimbo1490]

What is all the fuss about two strokes being more liable to be less clean running than four strokes?Wet sump diesel two strokes have been around a long time (did great service in war machines) and are no worse than wet sump four strokes,and are lighter and very efficient.

This makes it sound as though the emissions problem with two-stroke, crankcase scvenged type engines is that they mix oil with fuel. That is abosolutely not true. The problem stems from incomplete purging of the spent charge and susequnet contamination of the fresh charge. In short, they don't burn the charge completely/cleanly.

The 'valve uniflow' type ingine used widely by Detroit Deisel and others does not have this problem (as long as RPM are kept low,<3000), but is a far more complex and costly engine with a mandatory roots or other positive displacement air pump to savenge the cylinders.

With the very lean fuel oil ratios of today's synthetic two-stroke lubes, the oil in the fuel is barely noticable. Quite a few lawn service guys use the new 100:1 oil. Additionally, to avoid the possibility that a careless worker might put 'dry gas' in one of their two-stroke machines, they put the 100:1 oil in ALL the gas and run it in EVERYTHING, including the four strokes. Makes no difference. The spark plugs do not foul in the four strokes, nor do they visibly make any more smoke than with pure gasoline.

I noticed this years ago when I was running Bel-Ray MC-1 @ 64:1 in my Maico 490 dirt bike. A friend had a Honda XR500, and numerous times we ran my gas in his bike with no discernable difference in performance or emissions output (smoke ;) ) And that at a mere 64:1.


Jimbo

[tom kane]

One of the first 4 stroke outboards sold in New Zealand was a Chrysler Hillman Imp motor (55HP) stood on its`s end.There were not many sold.The reason for adding lubricating oil to two stroke fuel is to lubricate the motor it does not burn but finishes up all over the place and even drips out the muffler.A wet sump motor uses the lubricating oil more efficiently,even a two stroke wet sump motor.Use fuel injection,air injection,wet sump,two stroke,makes a good clean motor,and then add Alcohol type fuels (or Hydrogen) for more improvements.

[gonzo]

The new generation two stroke Evinrude E-Tec engines are so quiet they had to add a safety feature to the starter switch. You can't crank them unless the engine is stopped. Owners were damaging the starter and flywheel because they couldn't hear their engine idle. We tested one of the E-Tec 250 and a Volvo XP side by side, and we could carry on a conversation between boats at 40 MPH.

[Mychael]

I'm guessing that the larger engines would have the physical space/size to allow the fitting of the latest technology to make a 2 stroke "clean".
I wonder though would the same be possible with the small (under 8hp) engines?
To use my motor again as an example, it's new (less then 6 months old) but is not really happy at idle and even running a 50:1 ratio I notice quite an oil slick in the fresh water flushing tank I have at home. So if I am contaminating the 200litre(44gal) drum with 60 second run ups, how much must I be putting into the sea running the engine for half an hour or more every time I go out to my boat?

Mychael

[Ike]

One of the first 4 stroke outboards sold in New Zealand was a Chrysler Hillman Imp motor (55HP) stood on its`s end.There were not many sold.The reason for adding lubricating oil to two stroke fuel is to lubricate the motor it does not burn but finishes up all over the place and even drips out the muffler

Sounds like the first car I ever owned, a Hillman Husky

[tom kane]

Auto Union turned out in the 60`s a rather snappy three cylinder two stroke car which went very well,although head winds and hills needed extra gear changes.They did leave a trail of smoke though.It seems there is not and idea that has not been tried somewhere in the World.

[Mykul]

From what I have learned from my searching wheather 2>4. there are some lakes in the USA that CARBORATED 2 strokes are illegal. DI 2 strokes have much better emisions ratings than there carborated counter parts.

[mydauphin]

I dont think so. The VTecs are two strokes and they meet all emissions standards.

[Mykul]

Yes that is what I meant. The new Evinrude E-tecs & Merc Optimax are direct injection. The difference is how the fuel is mixed with air. The fuel dosnt go through the crank case so right there you use less oil because the fuel cant wash the oil off the moving parts.

[safewalrus]

this rising it's head again? instead of small engines why not try a pair of oars? healthy stuff, trolls easily can be stopped instantly, only lubrication needed is a can of beer every now and then - only problem is it requires somehing people are not much good at these days, it's called WORK! But hell it's a damn more satisfying and it does you and the enviroment good! (cheap too surprisingly enough - shame about the dirty four letter word!)

[mydauphin]

Quickie story... I have two outboards a Nissan 4 stroke 5hp and 115hp 2 stroke Evinrude. The Evinrude is attached to a 21' center console, the 5 hp sometimes to a canoe or jon boat I have. The 2 stroke uses oil mix with gas, never had a problem with it. The 4 stroke in huge fine waiting to happen. Everytime I move engine unless I keep it perfectly vertical the crankcase oil spills in carb and piston. I have to pull plug and oil shoots out of it falling in water covering with a nice blue sheen. I then have to refill engine with close to a quart of new oil to get it running and get the hell out of there.

Anyway I had a two-stroke motor before and replace it because I thought 4 stroke would be cleaner. Not true, with this thing it is always a pain to store or it spills oil.

Just something to think about!

[marshmat]

Anyway I had a two-stroke motor before and replace it because I thought 4 stroke would be cleaner. Not true, with this thing it is always a pain to store or it spills oil Good point. Not an issue for something that lives in a slip or on a trailer, but a cartopper or other light boat where you're taking the engine off a lot will cause problems with the oil on some 4-strokes.
Yes that is what I meant. The new Evinrude E-tecs & Merc Optimax are direct injection. The difference is how the fuel is mixed with air. A conventional 2-stroke mixes air and oil/fuel, then sends that mixture into the crankcase, then sends it from there into the cylinders. As both the intake and exhaust ports have to be open simultaneously so that the fresh charge can displace the exhaust gases, some unburned fuel inevitably gets into the exhaust. Hence the terrible emissions rating of a carb'd 2-stroke; they do OK on many counts but they emit piles of unburned (and toxic) hydrocarbons.
A DI two-stroke brings only the air into the crankcase, and only the air goes from the crankcase to the cylinder. The fuel is injected straight into the cylinder AFTER the exhaust port is closed, so virtually all the fuel is burned. The control of the air/fuel ratio is much better and no raw fuel escapes. Hence why they're so much cleaner.
The actual mechanism of injection is different in each make. If I recall correctly, Optimax injectors blow a charge of high-pressure air through a metered quantity of fuel, forcing it into the cylinder. The old FICHT injectors used a metal ram to inject fuel at high pressure through a tiny nozzle. There are any number of variations. It's worth noting that the direct injector concept is very similar to the injectors of most diesels, which as we know can be designed to last darn near forever- or fall apart in months.