Helm Station Design for larger cruisers...

[Grant Nelson]

Hi, I seem to spend a lot of time trying to figure out good helm station designs, in general for lager power craft... mainly what I don't get, is that in designs/boats I look at, the usually very deep seats are set quite far back from the wheel, probably because a) when seated knee room is needed, and b) when standing you need room to stand... (duh). But the result is that when seated you can not sit back and still reach the wheel and controls... and so forth.

I have searched the internet, and asked helm seat and wheel vendors, but I can not find any studies around this area that seem to look further than what seems to be "uncomfortable" tradition. There is a mysterous coast guard paper from the "70s (CG-D-68-77) but I can not find any one who can provide it to me.

What do others out there know / think about good helm design. Lets keep it limited to larger (power) cruisers - and NOT non-(semi) open cockpit / non-runabout cockpits, or at least discuss those in another thread..

[bhnautika]

Grant If you can have a look at professional boatbuilder magazine No 48 for an article on wheel house design, also the No 96 cover has a good layout .

[tom28571]

Grant,

I'm not sure what you mean by "uncomfortable". If you want to reach the wheel "comfortably" when both sitting and standing, you will have to have your knees/legs extend beyond the wheel when sitting, just like in a car. I find that this can be very comfortable if there is an adequate footrest for the sitting position. I usually change positions from one to the other to relieve any possible cramping and wish I could this in our car as well. The space between the wheel and the seat need only be large enough for your middle plus a little bit. Of course this depends on the size of the gut in question. On my boat the space allowed between the wheel and seat is about 12 inches, which is ample for some bigger men than I.

An alternative would be to have the seat on slide runners but it would be a bother to have to readjust it all the time.

[Willallison]

Grant, I concur with your frustraion at the apparent lack of information on this subject. Indeed I have an entire text devoted to the ergonomics of boat design - and there's not a single dimension given regarding helm positions!
If you do a bit of a search on these forums you will pick up a bit of info - there's a few drawings and the like, but again it's pretty limited.

Tom - I think adjustable helm seats (and preferably wheels as well) should be incorporated into every boat - unless you only plan to have one person ever drive it...
I mean, you would never buy a car without an adjustable drivers seat....

[FAST FRED]

The modern cruiser is steered mostly with an autopilot .
Although in a docking the operator will usually prefer to stand to operate the controlls.

The usual cruise is done feet on the console with the helmsman laid back and simply observing the progress and changing course with a hand remote.

It is important that the seat can slide back enough to stand in front , and that radio VHF and AM-FM, beverage , autopilot and perhaps intercom is within EZ reach of the sitting helmsman. Radar , electric maps and engine instruments should also be visable while sitting.

FAST FRED

[tom28571]

Will, et al,

I must admit I'm a bit puzzled. It has never occured to me that this was a big problem. I find my helm station to be comfortable whether sitting or standing. I do admit that if the helmsman has a large girth, he would need more room standing and that would indicate a long reach when sitting, so a sliding seat would be nice. While the space between my wheel and seat is only 12", there is 23" of fore-n-aft footroom under the footrest. No one has ever commented on a problem with it.

Now I'm going to have to pay attention to how I drive the boat.:confused: Maybe I'm uncomfortable and did not know it. In that case, I'm sorry this was brought up.:(

[Willallison]

LOL - ignorance is bliss hey Tom ?!?:D
Then again - you may just have hit upon the one-size-fits-all perfect helm !

[Willallison]

hmm - that sounded a little rude - definitely not intended Tom...

What if I post a simple line drawing of a helm position: people could then add dimensions to the drawing and re-post it.......

[tom28571]

No worries mate. Ignorance can be bliss but is no sin 'cause it can be cured with study. Stupid is permanent.:D

Looks a lot like mine Will. Wheel hub 40" off sole. Seat base 32" off sole. 23" between bulkeads. 12" from wheel to seat. Seat extends 3" toward wheel beyond base. Foot rest set at comfortable height and angle. Seat level set to make eye level equal height sitting or standing for best visibility. Knees are much closer to the wheel and likely extend to the side a bit. Have to check that.

I mocked it up before building it. Works for me but maybe I'm oddly made. I do have a book on human engineering, called ergonomics nowadays but not much has changed. Used to be 6' and 170# but am more like 5' 11" and same weight now.

[Willallison]

Ignorance can be bliss but is no sin 'cause it can be cured with study. Stupid is permanent

You get more profound by the minute!:D

Ok - so I've got this -

Anyone else want to chime in?

[FAST FRED]

Where do you plop your feet when the helm chair is reclined and little attention is needed?

FAST FRED.

[Grant Nelson]

Hi All, Interesting thoughts. I scanned issue 48 of Proboat. It fits with some of what I have read elsewhere - an arrangement so your leg can fit under the wheel is best. Thus a vertical wheel will not work. A wheel at 30degrees to horizontal is best, and the foot rest built in under is a must. The wheel can be around 39inches high. The seat shuold allow around 6 inches between the seat and the wheel edge. Thus it can be around 28 inches high. it should slide back and forth so you can choose to stand. up and down is OK too, but not required. When the seat is back, have a least 9 inches between wheel and seat front. 12 is better. also, allow at least 4 inches of toe space from the front edge of aft edge of the wheel forward to the bulkhead. Also, ABYC says you should be able to see to the water 4 boat lenghts ahead over the bow, or around 162 feet, which ever is less - at least when standing, but preferable when seated. Keep in mind that the average male can reach, from back to fingertips, 27 inches. If you have a seat that is 17 inches deep, leans back 3 inches, that leaves you 7 inches you can reach beyond the seat - if you want to be able to sit back and relax while steering. Or you can turn on the autopilot, grab a Bud, and go watch the wake for a while... Cheers, Grant

[Willallison]

Fred's Helm :D

[Willallison]

Sadly, I'm not sure if I have Proboat going back that far - maybe you could scan the relevant page and post it Grant...?

In the meantime, here's my take on your dimensions...

[tom28571]

I just went out and tried my helm station. Used it for almost 7 seasons over many miles and never thought about it being less than comfortable. OK, taking a critical look, it could use some more cushion under my bum. Maybe that area is becoming more sensitive:D

Will, in your illustration my knees would be spread apart and almost touching the wheel. Has to be that close to reach the wheel comfortably. Standing position is fine and don't know how it could be improved unless the pilot is a lot thicker than me. Even if I did not mind using the extra space, I would not go for a sliding seat. Not needed. Also prefer the vertical wheel.

Forward vision varies from a few feet off the forward deck to about 30 to 40 feet right over the stem underway at any speed, sitting or standing. Vision in some well known boats gives me pains. Here is a photo of the station...maybe: http://www.bluejacketboats.com/Liz%20steering%20station.jpg

I do not use an autopilot. A close friend's 28' sailboat was hit by a new 50' sport boat running fast under autopilot. It was a new boat being delivered by two licensed captains. Who knows where they were:( His boat was dismasted and damaged enough that he now sports a new Nonsuch 30.:)

Edited to add that all instruments are in easy each also. The instrument panel hinges out to allow access to the backside for mounting/removal of instruments and access to wiring terminal connections. The main power distribution panel is just around the corner and is hinged also.

[Willallison]

Tom - when you're seated at the helm, can you comfortably reach the wheel at the same time as you are reclined against the seat's backrest?

The problem that might arise from the dimension's that Grant gave - as given in turn by Proboat - is that for most people your head would be lower when seated than when standing. My bum's about 800mm off the floor (31.5"), so Tom's 32" seat height would ensure equal vision regardless of whether you are sitting or standing (which is as he suggested it should be)

[tom28571]

Tom - when you're seated at the helm, can you comfortably reach the wheel at the same time as you are reclined against the seat's backrest?

The problem that might arise from the dimension's that Grant gave - as given in turn by Proboat - is that for most people your head would be lower when seated than when standing. My bum's about 800mm off the floor (31.5"), so Tom's 32" seat height would ensure equal vision regardless of whether you are sitting or standing (which is as he suggested it should be)

Will,

I don't recline while driving but can sit against the seatback while driving. The seatback is at 10 degrees to the seat. For comfort with this arrangement, there must be a good footrest. I made mine retractable on both seats but rarely ever fold them and it's an unnecessary complication. They have to be at different angles though because the longitudinal space needed for the steering station & instrument panel (as I designed it) is 6 1/2 inches greater.

[Willallison]

I don't recline while driving but can sit against the seatback while driving
:D - ok poor choice of words - perhaps more suitable to Fred's suggested driving position...;)

[FAST FRED]

Freds Helm" , has the idea , but you need a few items mounted along side so no movement is required.

A windshield wiper switch , a signal horn button, the VHF and XM sat radio controlls , should be located where the beverage wont spill on them.

I would suggest a "Stewardess Call" button , from my past life , but too many wives read this board.

FAST FRE"D

[dougfrolich]

ABYC H-1 should be referenced also when designing the helm,
the criteria for establishing the seat height is given,etc....

[Grant Nelson]

The Proboat no.48 is general text, for faster larger boats. There are no diagrams, and mainly all they say about the wheel and seat is that you should be able to sit near the wheel/control station, and this requires that your knees can fit under the wheel. The wheel is best at 30degrees from horizontal, or steeper is OK as long as your knees don't hit it. Horizontal wheels don’t work for this. Height is around 39 max for an angled wheel and 36 for a vertical wheel of 20 inches.

The seat should give good support back and on the sides, and include a seatbelt or harness. There is nothing said about sliding of the seat or up and down adjustments. I think sliding back and forth is a given requirement, and up and down is needed to provide visibility to different size people.

The seat should slide to at least within 6 inches of the wheel or closer. More important is that you have 6 inches vertically between the seat top and wheel bottom. You need a minimum of 9" horizontal space when the seat is back all the way, 12 is better, and 16 if you have a side exit door next to the helm seat. Height of the seat should allow you to get your knees under the angled wheel and will come out at around 24 - 28 inches. For the vertical wheel, where that is not really possible, there is a trend to have even higher seats - increasing visibility - up to 36 inches. I figure having a seat for the angled wheel arrangement, that goes up that high would be a fine idea - especially if you put some foot rests up on the consol, so you could 'Fast Fred" navigate when things where quiet

What I miss so far in my browsing around, but I assume someone has developed it, is a wheel that can be moved up and down, and the horizontal position changed too (and of course, it should turn so you can steer...)

One of the reasons to be able to get nearer the consol, is so you can use the controls comfortably too, and since most throttles today still are the half circle push pull type, with a radius of around 8 inches, you need to be sure you can use if while seated, especially the back, higher speed, control part of the arc. Also, angle the control up at around 30 or more degrees so that your normal running speed throttle position is around vertical.

The footrest, built into the bulkhead under the wheel, or onto the pedestal of your expensive helm seat, is a must. The rest on the pedestal is probably not as comfortable, and you have to make the effort to swing it up out of the way when you want to stand (they are narrow flat, usually metal plates, and right around shin height...)

Don’t forget to provide at least 4 inches space from the aft edge of the wheel forward to the bulkhead at foot level.

The consol should be at 30 degrees, switches, etc on that part, and a bit further forward, angle it up to 60 or 70 degrees, and mount your gages and other high tech screens...

Visibility is an important consideration. For sure you need to meet some standard visibility rule when standing - as I and Doug mentioned, the ABYC H-1 paper says you see water over the bow at 4 boat lengths or 162feet, which ever is less. If you can assure this from the seated position, all the better!

Doug’s PDF files are great - the ergos one sums up many of the dimensions I quote above (however the angle of the wheel can be debated, and the min height for the angled wheel can probably go down to 34 inches (mind you, we are not talking about smaller, low profile, speed boat seating here...).

The ISO paper says pretty much what the ABYC H1 says (I believe ISO and ABYC cooperated on the ISO version)

What we have not touched on is how well you can see around you... and all I have to say is that forward you want almost un-interrupted visibility around, and aft, as much as is physically possible. The ISO paper of Doug gives actual rules.

I am still looking for the guard paper from the "70s (CG-D-68-77) and found our someone in the Coast Guard who knows there is a physical copy somewhere, but I can not order via the web as they suggest as their listings only go back to 1990!

The autopilot switch is best located on the latch of the beer cooler... with each can having a hand remote built in - for instant responsiveness in case of emergencies, or when you want to adjust your speed when watching the wake, to see if you can make it big enough to swamp that little sailboat...

[FAST FRED]

For giant cockpits Lewmar makes a wheel that folds!

One can still steer while its folded , so it could be a great space saver.

FAST FRED

[Wilma Ham]

You are right Fred, wives do read the odd thread. A button to summon near the wheel would suit me fine too. Wilma

[Willallison]

:D Ouch - looks like you've been done again Fred!