Best Design for Minimalist Trailerable Coastal Cruising

[Chris Ostlind]

I'm opening this thread because I would like to hear what everyone thinks about what goes into the ideal minimalist coastal cruising boat. I'm looking at everything... hull forms, rigs, equipment, weight, creature comforts.. the whole enchilada. For discussion's sake, let's keep the comments confined to designs under 24' LOA. Bigger than that, I tend to feel the designs are leaving the environment of minimalism as most people regard it.

Keep in mind that this boat will need to operate in a wide variety of water conditions and depths, in periods of wind and no wind, in potentially strong tidal environments and with shorelines made of wildly different materials.

I'm looking to discuss designs suitable for one and/or two person adventure cruises with no reserves on the locations for the cruise.

Have at it guys and gals. I really would like to hear all your thoughts and encourage spirited discussion regarding the potential of this type of boat. Feel free to share your past experiences that have shaped your opinions and please keep an open mind about the positions of others if they differ from your own.

There's a lot of really superior knowledge on this Forum and I'd like to have that power brought to to the fore in this discussion. It doesn't matter if you are a practicing designer or a part time boater with a passion. Let's hear your opinions.

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design

[Dan S]

For two people coastal traveling, I would say the designer should stick to the KISS principle.


Sloop rig
Lifting fin with bulb (let you get in close to the beach)
Small berth
Well balanced, so that you don’t have to constantly be attending the helm.
Cold molded hull.When I get home, I will post a photo of a yacht that looks real similar to what I’m talking about.

[Doug Lord]

I think the Farrier F22 planing trimaran fits the bill perfectly:
Farrier F-22 Trailerable Trimaran
Address:http://www.f-boat.com/pages/trimarans/F-22.html Changed:2:31 AM on Sunday, August 13, 2006

[Chris Ostlind]

Define Planing trimaran. Specific, concise description, if you don't mind. Is there an example sailing to support the defintion?

[jarhead]

a woods 'janus' is just right for this discussion. you can modify it to suit individual preferences perhaps, but it is brilliant solution to the stated specifications.

[Doug Lord]

My answer to the question above regarding defining planing trimarans has been moved to it's own topic under "Multihulls" so as to avoid any possibility of changing the topic of this thread which is very interesting.

[skyl4rk]

The yawl rig allows for masts fore and aft, leaving a center area open for accommodations.

[lewisboats]

My bid would be Rozinante but she exceeds your length specs by three and change feet. If you haven't read it (and I am sure you probably have)... The Compleat Cruiser by L. Francis Herreshoff is an interesting and informative read into the enjoyment of cruising. It covers quite a bit about what makes up a good cruising boat along with numerous tips, tricks and techniques to make the most out of cruising. Perhaps using the boat as a starting point you could update its specs while incorporating the best of its virtues.

Steve

http://www.dmcboats.com/then-and-now.jpg http://www.dmcboats.com/arionclose.jpg

and the site where these come from:

http://www.dmcboats.com/commentary.htm

[lewisboats]

Perhaps using the boat as a starting point you could update its specs while incorporating the best of its virtues.


By this I mean trimming her down a tad, say to 24 ft (about 10%) but maybe only going 5-7% on beam and depth, to keep things habitable. Boosting the crown on the cabin would regain an inch or two on the headroom, as would elevating the cabin sides (I don't think it would detract from the appearance too much)

Steve

[rayaldridge]

It seems to me that we're talking about camping, when the matter is stripped to its essence, and we already have a lot of off-the-rack categories in camping that adapt easily to beach cruising.

Kayaks and canoes hover somewhere on the line between backpacking and horse packing, in terms of convenience and luxury. You can carry quite a bit more in a canoe than you can carry on your back, but the weight is limited. If you go up to an open monohull, like the Core Sound boats, you fall into the category of tent-camping by car. If you go up another notch in size, luxury, and complexity, so that you have some sort of interior accomodations, it's analogous to camping in a small trailer or pickup camper.

Luxury is good, but so are some of the other options that are less luxurious. One of the major motivators for backpacking is to reach places that you can't reach in a car or other motorized transport, and canoes and kayaks are a bit like that. Making the boat light enough to portage opens up many cruising grounds not accessible to boats that can only be moved with a trailer.

The range that interests me most is intermediate between canoes and kayaks and larger boats with accomodations, because while these in-between boats are not as portable as canoes and kayaks, they are much more seaworthy, and open up offshore islands and other destinations not easily reached by the little boats. Where I live, the coast is fairly steep-to, with only the occasional pass out into the Gulf via sometimes dangerous inlets, so a small boat has to have some degree of seaworthiness if you want to go out and catch a few mackerel. People go kayaking out there, but I'm chicken.

The little cat I'm building is a multihull version of the open unballasted monohull cruising dinghies. Big enough to handle some bad conditions, decked over at the bows and sterns for lots of flotation, and with enough payload for two to camp in relative luxury. It draws about 10 inches, board up, fully loaded. It would be light enough to drag over a bar into a river system usually inaccessible to bigger boats.

The camping analogy that I like for the little cat is the horse packing expedition. Compared to backpacking, horse packing is pretty luxurious-- you can take a big tent, you can take a Dutch oven, you can sleep on a cot instead of the ground.

The little cat can take you to many of the places you could go in a kayak, but you can take a much greater weight of luxuries than you could in a kayak.

The great advantage of a small lightweight multihull, aside from speed and exhilarating sailing, is that it can be trailed without complicated mechanisms for extending beam. That makes it more practical in an important way than a larger cat or tri that has to be fiddled with at the ramp for an hour or two before you can sail away. In fact, this necessary complexity in larger multihulls designed for beach camping is the main reason many find them inferior to a monohull cruising dinghy.

At 16 feet LOA, and 8.5 feet overall beam, my design is really a little less than optimal beam for its length. But it should be adequate, as long as I don't get carried away with sail area. The idea is to have a boat that can be used for a weekend getaway on short notice, since that's the logical way to approach weather when you're beach camping. Back when I owned a big boat and we had to plan our vacations well in advance, sometimes we spent a week anchored in high winds. It was still fun, but...

[Doug Lord]

Any chance of seeing any sketches of your idea,Ray? I kind of like the idea.....

[rayaldridge]

Any chance of seeing any sketches of your idea,Ray? I kind of like the idea.....

I'll see what I can put up over the next few days.

[SAE140]

Is the 24ft LOA upper limit "on the trailer", or "in the water" ?
I've got one design in mind which would have a 7ft detachable bow section which would be stored on the cockpit area whilst on the trailer.

Although I was originally thinking of 33ft LOA (in the water), I reckon this could be scaled down to 31ft easily enough in order to meet a 24ft trailer limit.

5ft beam, draft of 4 to 5 feet (keel down), 6 inches or so with keel up.

Colin

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

One of Matt Laydens many little successful boats...

I am considering building one - against all the scoffers at my place of work...

See below...

See http://paradox-uk.co.uk/ - as a start point...

Cheers...

SH.

[rayaldridge]

I think that Layden's designs are remarkable. I bought a set of plans for Paradox, even though I'm a multihull guy, just to admire and learn from the many ingenious ideas in the design.

Ray




Hello...

One of Matt Laydens many little successful boats...

I am considering building one - against all the scoffers at my place of work...

See below...

See http://paradox-uk.co.uk/ - as a start point...

Cheers...

SH.

[mattotoole]

I think the Farrier F22 planing trimaran fits the bill perfectly:
Farrier F-22 Trailerable Trimaran
Address:http://www.f-boat.com/pages/trimarans/F-22.html Changed:2:31 AM on Sunday, August 13, 2006

I'll second that! The Tramp/Eagle was terrific. The F-22 looks a lot more seaworthy, a drier boat with a fast-draining open transom.

I've cruised on both beach cats and a Stiletto 27, and I still think the tri would be better.

I can't think of a monohull that would do the job as well.

[longliner45]

lewis boat beautifull sailboat,,,,,I like the style,,,and shes classy

[SolomonGrundy]

http://www.kastenmarine.com/booj_22_ext.gif

I like this one.

[Chris Ostlind]

So far, there have been some interesting contributions to the search for the ultimate minimalist coastal cruiser, but I think there's a whole genere of boats that have not come close to being addressed.

Of those on the record to this point, the Rozinante, while a stunningly beautiful boat, falls well outside that which would be comfortably trailerable in any sense (even if you had a 1.5 ton Dually as your vehicle of choice, and that's hardly a minimalist towing design along with the boat)

The F22 could be in the running for consideration, but I feel it is too expensive to build, too heavy at 1300-1500 lbs. and way to complex in its operation to qualify as minimalist. A good boat, of course, (with a caveat) but not minimal by any stretch of the imagination unless you are the current owner of an ORMA 60 trimaran. The caveat being that there aren't any of them currently sailing to form any kind of real world opinion other than to go by Ian Farrier's excellent reputation.

The Paradox comes closest to the on-point aspects of this discussion, but what about such boats as the Dudley Dix Cape Cutter 19, the John Welsford Penguin or Pathfinder, the Norseboat from Chuck Paine or either of the Core Sound boats from B&B?

Certainly, there are also many smaller multihulls than the F22 that would also qualify as minimalist coastal cruisers that have not been mentioned. The Wood's Janus is exactly on target for this discussion with weight, length and trailerable elements well within what anyone would consider for a boat of this type, though it does begin to get into the complex environment of the F22.

I've always been intrigued by the idea of a sectional boat that could help with the trailering aspects of a longer form, but let's keep this discussion to 24' LOA on the water, just to keep things in the same ballpark.

Has anyone considered a sailing, triamaran/canoe as a minimalist coastal cruiser. The Watertribe Everglades Challenge has seen many of these boats compete with a very strong showing. In 2004, a double canoe/trimaran, based on a Kruger Cruiser, finished first and this year the same boat finished third. It would be very hard to get more minimalist than a decked canoe/trimaran and be able to produce results such as those already posted.

Does anyone have any opinions on this style of boat and the potential it represents in fulfilling the objectives of this thread?

[Raggi_Thor]

Is the B18 minimalistic enough?
300kg with 100kg lead, possible to sleep under the lifting roof or with a boom tent :-)

[skyl4rk]

A Sea Pearl is a good example of an open coastal cruiser.

[Raggi_Thor]

You mean from www.marine-concepts.com?

[Sean Herron]

Hello....

Sadly we lost Nimble Boats chief - but that is that...

Ted Brewer had his hand in many of their designs - namely the Kodiak and such...

The Peep Hen has always caught my lazy eye...

See http://home.earthlink.net/~joshguys/peephen.jpg ...

Start there...

I don't expect this to be of anyones taste - but there is Bolgers' schooners that 'crack in half' aswell...

Cheers...

SH.

[Guillermo]

Has anyone considered a sailing, triamaran/canoe as a minimalist coastal cruiser.
I've found some interesting info, not on a trimaran or canoe, but on a 16' cat coming from Scientific American's pages in 1878:
http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/short/sci_am/malay_cat.html
At the bottom of the page, it appears a drawing from Phil Bolger about a sharpie cat 23' 6"" long:
http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/short/sci_am/pcb_sharpie_cat.gif

[Guillermo]

A design that has spured may into the waters over the years...;)
http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/westindia/515/specifications/compare.htm

[Willallison]

Chris - perhaps the most basic of questions has yet to be asked (unless I've missed it) - though those who have posted to date have obviously understood the intent of your original post better than I...
Are we talkin sail, power, or either / both?

[Chris Ostlind]

A Homer Simpson moment has passed

Nice observation, Will. I was thinking sailboats, but of course, the objective discussion should also include powerized craft of all types. Electric, gas, diesel all could fit the bill if done simply and cleanly.

Thanks for mentioning that over sight.

Chris

[Chris Ostlind]

Like any design snob, I have shunned many of Phil's designs over the years because I found them too much like the neighbor's chicken coop with port holes.

Much to my surprise and just when I thought I had Ol" Phil all figured out, I found out that he has done so many really wonderfully clean and flowing designs that my head began to spin.

While this cat is more like the coop than swan, it does hit the nail on the head for minimalist coastal cruising. One tends to forget that you don't have to go fast on a cruise. While the fast part shouldn't be too much trouble for such skinny hulls, the going slow aspect will make this boat a much drier and therefore, more comfortable experience.

A great suggestion, Guillermo.

Chris

[Chris Ostlind]

Raggi,

I saw a SeaPearl tri for the first time last summer at Lake Powell and kinda liked the boat and the way it was laid out for tripping. About the only thing that turned me off was the fact that the boat is surprisingly heavy and that is not what I expected from a trimaran.

The boat at Powell was owned by a retired couple and they were really content with cruising along under outboard when the wind was down. The tri setup was absolutely stable during the times when a big power boat would pass, tossing a huge wake. I could see that the stability issue was one of the nice features for the owners.

Thanks for suggesting it in the discussion.

[mattotoole]

The F22 could be in the running for consideration, but I feel it is too expensive to build, too heavy at 1300-1500 lbs. and way to complex in its operation to qualify as minimalist.

I'll give you too heavy or expensive, or complex in construction with their folding mechanisms, but not complex in operation. F-boats can be rigged and launched in minutes. They have a sailplan good for everything from 0-40 kt by simply rolling up the headsails and reefing the main. Plus the F-boat has the speed to overcome strong tidal currents -- one of your requirements, if I read it right.

The caveat being that there aren't any of them currently sailing to form any kind of real world opinion other than to go by Ian Farrier's excellent reputation.

This is true, but we can assume the F22 will be similar to other F-boats. If not, does the Corsair F24 meet the 24' limit?

The Paradox comes closest to the on-point aspects of this discussion, but what about such boats as the Dudley Dix Cape Cutter 19, the John Welsford Penguin or Pathfinder, the Norseboat from Chuck Paine or either of the Core Sound boats from B&B?

All cool boats, but for strong currents I'd want something faster.

Certainly, there are also many smaller multihulls than the F22 that would also qualify as minimalist coastal cruisers that have not been mentioned. The Wood's Janus is exactly on target for this discussion with weight, length and trailerable elements well within what anyone would consider for a boat of this type, though it does begin to get into the complex environment of the F22.

Sure. It would be like cruising in a Stiletto, but slower and cheaper. Like the Stiletto, I think it fails the easy trailerability test. It's doable, but definitely compromised. Assembly/disassembly is bound to be cumbersome.

Has anyone considered a sailing, triamaran/canoe as a minimalist coastal cruiser.

Yup! I saw a kayak with outriggers a couple of years ago, with a rig that looked like it came from a model yacht. It really flew with this small sail, and looked easy to sail too. The rig could probably be stowed easily, and if the wind died completely you could just paddle. I've been thinking about this boat ever since.

With simplicity in mind, oars or paddles vs. motors is an interesting question.

The Watertribe Everglades Challenge has seen many of these boats compete with a very strong showing. In 2004, a double canoe/trimaran, based on a Kruger Cruiser, finished first and this year the same boat finished third. It would be very hard to get more minimalist than a decked canoe/trimaran and be able to produce results such as those already posted.

Does anyone have any opinions on this style of boat and the potential it represents in fulfilling the objectives of this thread?

Great, but you might want to add "inexpensive" to your list of requirements, and/or "built with traditional materials and tools."

Also, these boats may be great for shallow, protected estuaries and beaches -- stuff like the Watertribe Challenge -- but not seaworthy enough for open ocean sailing. I know people have gone around the world in open boats this size, but...

So you might want to define your coast. Is it the Everglades, or the west coast of Vancouver Island? Or both?

[lewisboats]

Hey...What about the Pilgrim 590...I was going to suggest the K800 but it is too heavy for your specs. Anyhoo...here is a couple of pics of it (P590)

Steve

[lewisboats]

Egoist is also an option...I have a zip of the plans if anyone wants.

Steve

[Chris Ostlind]

Nice comments, Matt. Yeah, the indication about operation of the float folding could have been better said. I think you hit it correctly, though, about the mechanism.

I deliberately left a lot of space around the baseline description to see what sort of boats were swirling through people's heads regarding this application. Too tight of a basket and it isn't as much fun. There would be time, later, to draw it down some and further focus the potential.

Steve: The Pilgrim 590 certainly does fit the niche nicely, especially with the centerboard.

One of the obvious questions that are emerging is the use of a small outboard for a boat of this type. The use of the F22 in tight coastal environments, when there is no wind, mandates a small outboard as the boat can not be paddled effectively for more than a few yards. Currents, as Matt indicates, would soon sweep the boat wherever they would take you. That could end-up as a less than optimal experience.

I have always felt that the smallest F-Boat currently available, the F24, would make for a fantastic coastal cruising Mother Ship with kayaks as the means to explore the smaller waterways where it would be unwise to take the F24. You would pay a small price to have a pair of kayaks lashed to the tramps and the personal mobility, once anchored, could make for some fantastic exploration in areas where most big boaters never go.

Other boats that have been mentioned in this category could carry an inflatable or even a folding kayak for the same application.

If the F24 were to be used in this fashion among the islands of the Pacific Northwest, where huge tidal swings are common, the need to have a suitable inshore dinghy or kayak is an absolute. A prudent person is not going to beach their F24 on a rocky shore at high tide and then listen to the awful sounds of the gelcoat while the next tide comes in to float it free. In this case, a sailing canoe/trimaran might make for a much better choice as it can be physically handled to a location above the tidal flux.

Matt, your comment about "what coast" is at the essence of the discussion as the boat chosen will have to deal with not only prevailing conditions, but also have to recognize the potential, realistic range within the given load carrying capacity of the design as it applies to stores. There are lots of very interesting cruising grounds that have large distances between dependable sources of stores, so that limitation would have to be near the top of the list for a great all-around design.

[ted655]

:) http://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=539
Work from this basic boat. Live long & gunkhole to your hearts content. Nuff said.
;)

[messabout]

Sean Herron suggests that Bolger boxes may be anathema for all us sophisticated guys. I used to deride those beastie things too. That is until I sailed a few of them. Micro and Long Micro are about as ugly as they can get. BUT they are marvels of simplicity, low cost, and yes, performance. My favorite is Black Skimmer a rather charming sharpie. I chartered a Skimmer years ago in the Florida keys. Some of the stuff that Bolger prescribes seems goofy until you use it. For example, the Black Skimmer has flooded forepeak and flooded transom well. There are a hundred holes drilled in the bottom to accomplish the flooding. That seemed absurd to a guy who has spent a lot of years trying to keep water out of the boat. The flooded compartment washes the mud off the anchor, provides a great place to shower with a plastic bag thingy, and does not seem to affect the performance of the boat, nor is it noisy. The Skimmer will SAIL, not just float, in less than twelve inches of water. The damned thing is built inside out as the stringers are on the outside of the boat. That is sure to slow the boat one would think. I did not notice any diminished performance. The yawl rig is a marvel of simplicity. Unstayed masts,sprit booms and only two strings to adjust. The boat will self steer for miles and miles. Lest I sound like a Bolger salesman, I hasten to add that I dont own one of his boats and have no plans to do so. On the other hand I have great respect for those "chicken coops". If you want a Marina Queen this is not it, but if you want a capable, fun, reasonably cheap boat then give it a look.

[jarhead]

on the question of launch/retrieve times- the janus and similar cats cant compete with folding tris. the courier boats are way too hi-tech/expensive for my taste or bankaccount, but his earlier plywood versions are very suitable, the tramp and 6 metre trailertri should be considered if you're in this market.

[kellan_hatch]

Hi,

In my opinion, the ultimate minimalist cruiser should be very lightweight and should have features, besides small accomodations, that differentiate it from larger cruisers. Ideally, you should be able to take into very thin water, launch from just about anywhere you can get your feet wet and even make short portages. For my money, a light multihull gives you the most boat for the least weight. To fit the definition of a cruiser, I believe it should be roomy enough for one or two people to sleep onboard and duck out of inclement weather.

This is the boat that fits that description for me (I may be a little bit predudiced, since this is going to be my next boat):

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/designs/xcr/index.htm

I also like the idea of having at least three options for propelling a boat. In this case sail, paddle and small motor.

A trimaran configuration gives you massive stability while still allowing an very lightweight craft that can be easily moved along by wind, motor or muscle.

Kellan

[Guillermo]

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/designs/xcr/index.htm

Has anyone considered a sailing, triamaran/canoe as a minimalist coastal cruiser?
Hey, Chris! You're playing tricky here! ;)

[Chris Ostlind]

Here's the boat about which I was referring in my initial query.
(attached) The manufacturer of that boat is Kruger Canoes in Michigan, USA
http://www.krugercanoes.com/prod03.htm

I am building a boat for Kellan, but I made no mention of that effort in my postings nor did I prompt Kellan to post on my behalf. He's just proud of his new boat and likes to talk about it.

My apologies if it appears to be something else that is tricky.

I really like boats of this type and I think that shows in the comments I have made to specific different types as they have been posted in the thread.

[Guillermo]

Chris: I was joking. No offense here.
By the way, I know 'nada' about canoes.

[Tanton Yachts]

Water Ballasted. Free standing rig. Fiberglass construction.

[Gilbert]

There is a lot of interesting stuff on this thread.
I would mention the Rhodes Mariner (or O'day or whoever took it over after that). I believe it is basically a Rhodes 19 with a cabin and 4 bunks. I spent some time sailing on a Rhodes 19 and it was one of the very best sailers I've ever been aboard. That makes me think the Mariner would be great too.

[kellan_hatch]

Hey, Chris! You're playing tricky here! ;)

Nope, no trickery! Actually, I didn't even know if Chris was thinking of this kind of boat when he started this thread. I think he's just looking for feedback about what people are looking for in a minimal cruiser. He designs a lot of different types of boats.

But the truth is, I'm just very excited about the XCR and want people to see the design and consider the exciting potential this type of boat.

Also, I think the word minimalist, when applied to watercraft, means a lot of things to a lot of people. To me it means just big enough to sleep aboard, carry a simple galley and big enough ice chest to keep me in cold Pepsi for a few days.

Kellan

[lewisboats]

Water Ballasted. Free standing rig. Fiberglass construction.

Interesting...what kind of bottom shape does it have, do you have a body view?

Steve

[Tanton Yachts]

Also available in 24'. Dinghy shape with a long keel.

[Chris Ostlind]

I really like the lines of the User Friendly 21 as well as the simple, direct, ease of use patterns that the water ballast provides for the boat. But then, I like a lot of Ive-Marie's design work, especially the freestanding, wishbone boom rigs he uses on some of his cat-ketch oriented design work.

Just beautifully simple and elegant solutions that show the experienced sailor in his blood.

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design

[longliner45]

cant tell you what to do............but scoffers dont do anything,,,,,,,,,,,longliner

[Willallison]

Righto - time for me to chime in with an idea I've been tossing around for a powerboat that should fit the bill here. VERY minimalist....
I call it the displacement monomaran. Soemewhat of an oxymoron perhaps, but it best describes the boat's attributes.
This is a cross between the hullform of a displacement powercat, a RIB, and at a pinch a sea kayak. Powered by a small 4-stroke outboard it should give outstanding economy at cruising speeds in the low to mid teens.
LOA 7m
Beam 0.5m (+inflatable tubes)
Foredeck is a button-down hypalon affair, allowing limited storage and even overnight sleeping - strictly for one - or 2 VERY friendly people! Aft of the seat is open to allow 1 - 2 passengers, fuel tank etc

Please excuse the extraordinarily poor drawing - don't have any of the required facilities at my work computer to do anything more...

[Willallison]

A little further thought and one could incorporate collapsible outriggers, a reversible sliding seat and oars. The latter would be stored on top of the tubes and when slid fwd would protrude out the fron of the boat such that they would be used for portaging, along with fold down wheels on the transom

[campcruiser]

Hi I'm new...This subject is dear to my heart so I thought I would chime in. Being a canoe paddler I have seen the benifits of a light weight craft. The biggest benifit is the ability to haul the boat out and above the high tide line. There are so many places I have been that I would not want to anchor a boat at. I don't want to be forced to go to a good anchorage possibly miles away from that really interesting spot. Problem is making this craft sail well, be sea worthy and safe, and be light enough for the crew to carry. I love the designs Chris has been working on, but can they be lighter, say no mote than 200lb with sails rigged?

[Duma Tau]

Great topic! Close to my heart and my daily sailing.

Shallow draft and coastal ability are both ingrained in my personal demographic profile for preferred craft......my home berth dries every tide.
This has led me to own build and sail Cornish Crabbers, Drascombe Luggers and Longboats, Buckie Luggers, One-designs, Tuckers, Wharram Catamarans, and various other beachable, trailable boats .

Drying-beaching capability tends to come free with trailable specifications.
That said, experience says "add upright drying geometry" via small bilge runners or keels, or flat bottoms: you get to sleep better when beached up for the night! Huge difference in quality of sleep & comfort ,as opposed to lying at even small angles in your bunk or on the boards in your cosy sleeping bag.

Ease of mast handling is next: tabernacles rule here, or similar swinging arrangements. Lifting even short masts into deck holes or thwarts sucks.
Gaff , gunter or junk rigs offer best easy methods of getting meaningful sail areas without high masts and easy reefing too.

Drop keels if fitted should be steel, and SWINGING action NOT vertical dropping angle! The difference in the two for SAFE & practical useability is massive.
How so? ONE example:- You are approaching what looks like a nice anchorage up a creek or fiord, but lack of local knowledge and/or charts/depth sounder etc makes you nervous to proceed further inshore, but you need to get in there somehow: perhaps a gale is imminent ?
Swing keels which hang down at a shallow angle, pivoted, have natural ability to feel the bottom as you approach the beach etc, in total safety, the keel just bumps along, giving the cautious skipper plenty of warning in the most accurate way, of shoaling water.
Swing keels are also way easier to fit & arrange lifting tackle within the boat, needing less effort to operate.
Lee Boards work good too, and have the advantage of needing no hole in the hull, right where stones have a tendency to jam. Port and Starboard boards can be lowered to act as beaching legs too, an elegant multi-tasking use of resources......you sleep upright again! The weather board also provides a neat spray and wing dodger when raised above the gunwhale, a small oasis of calm for the exposed helmsperson. Cosy.

For balanced, unattended sailing the cutter or yawl rig is better for ease of set-up and docility. Bowsprits which drop down/up or slide in/out are a bargain method of tuning the rig, and provide useful spar length for other purposes like jury masts, poling, winching heavy loads on/off the boat....etc.

If equipped with a cabin, headroom is good.......so is width. Take the cabin sides right out to the extreme of beam: side decks are pointless on small vessels. Raise the coachroof as much as your taste in profile allows.

Whoa...........gotta go and empty the bilges in the harbour now, low water beckons.

I hope you all enjoy some great sails in a small boat soon!

[djwkd]

how about a pontoon boat?you can take the hulls off,and if needed split the cabin in half.that would of course only work with a sailboat,though.

[Chris Ostlind]

Hi Will,

Strangely enough, I had also been cooking around with a rather strange, skinny hulled, 12-1 sea kayak with integrated sponsons for stability as a serious solo, or lightly equipped, double. I had not thought of hanging an outboard on the stern for extremely economical motoring capability. I suppose that with a bit of a tweak to the aft sections that could begin to look interesting.

Would you like to see my renderings? (Not the same as being invited to view one's etchings)

Could you supply any more drawings of what you had in mind?

Chris Ostlind

[Willallison]

Chris - LOL - would love to see your renderings:p
What you see is pretty much all I got at this stage - apart from a few "napkin scribbles" that I wasn't able to scan for lack of a scanner. I'm going to do a bit more work on it in the coming months.
As far as the hull shape goes, I was primarily looking at this as a powerboat - with the oars as an auxilliary form of propulsion. I had considered using more of a canoe shaped stern with large chine flats, as you often see in displacement powercats, but was concerned that it might provide too much directional stability. As a result, at this stage at least, I'm looking more at fairly flat bottomed aft sections to prevent squatting under power. This will of course reduce the craft efficiency as a row-boat.
I have to run some preliminary numbers before settling on anything though...

[Vega]

Hey guys, I have one interesting boat to post, from a well known French Architect, Julien Marin. This Guy is incredible polyvalent. He has designed a lot of interesting and very different boats. One of them is the Mercator 40, the aluminium twin keel that has been discussed recently in another thread, others are the Irisoft 40, the Lux 7.30, Sail cats, Power cats, racing boats, and also the I-KONE.

I guess that he had a lot of fun while designing this one.

I think that it fits well in this thread.

The links I will post are only in French, so I will tell some of the boat’s very unusual characteristics:

Length: 5.98 m; Beam: 2.5 m; Sail Area: 17 m2 ; Engine (max) 15 hp; Mast weight: 15kg
Water Ballast on the keel: 140 L; Draft 0.4/1m; Boat classified as insubmergible.

Motoring speed: +7k; the sail is furled around the mast; Boat + trailer weigh less than a ton; Price: 20 000 euros.

Take also a look at the new I-koneJ. It looks even better.

http://www.espace-vag.com/fr/IKone/Descriptif+technique/42.html

http://www.espace-vag.com/fr/IKone/Ses+atouts/41.html

http://www.espace-vag.com/images/photos/cockpit.jpg

http://www.julienmarin.com/gb_projets.asp

http://www.julienmarin.com/gb_architecture.asp

http://www.julienmarin.com/_gb_newslire.asp?num=17

http://www.espace-vag.com/fr/IKone+J/Ses+atouts/48.html

http://www.espace-vag.com/fr/IKone+J/Descriptif+technique/49.html

[longliner45]

sean those 45ftrs are nice but were do you get the giants from?

[Raggi_Thor]

In Norway it rains a lot, at least on the west coast and that is most of the coast...

So I think a minimalistic cruising boat for a couple with two kids would be a 20 feet long open daysailer with a small inboard diesel, a windscreen and a watertight "canopy", a simple rig with main and self-tacking jib and a ballasted centerboard + maybe some water ballast.

[llamalookout]

I'm planning on a 100 mile coastal cruising / camping trip this (southern) summer in my Windrider 17 around Banks Peninsula. With 800 pound load capacity there is enough capacity for a sailing buddy, large standing room tent, food, etc. On this route there are plently of deserted inlets suitable for dragging the boat up on the beach at night, so no worries about finding good anchorages. The hulls are rotomolded polyethalene and are good at flexing rather than chipping or cracking in contact with solid ground.

My preference for both kayaking and sailing is to be close to the shore, as the view is much more interesting than being out at sea. Also I spend enough time maintaining houses and I don't really want to maintain house-like features on a boat. So for me the Windrider is a real minimalist coastal cruiser without toilet, cupboards, plumbing, electrics, etc to worry about. I have a small 2hp outboard to provide backup for no wind conditions.

http://www.cavendish.co.nz/images/banks%20peninsula%20from%20satellite.jpg
http://www.hwmsailing.com/logo/wr17_topside.jpg

Re kayaks - A friend of mine created a frame to mount two sea kayaks into a small catamaran with outboard, but kayaks were never designed to go fast, so the main result was lots of spay splashing everywhere, even at low speeds.

[lewisboats]

Wow, what a paradise to go gunkholing in. You could take a couple of months to explore all the nooks and crannies there.

Steve

[Chris Ostlind]

Hi Will and all,

Here are those renderings I promised on that skinny cruising boat idea you penciled-up last week.

I came at it as a very slender design with a 12-1 hull in the water and integrated sponson flare. The water part of the design has a 15 degree vee at the transom and a nice spray chine taken aft. Above the hard chine the hull rises to a pronounced sponson flare to give huge secondary stability while being able to take advantage of the slender sections.

The boat is 24' LOA with 24" beam in the water.

The rest of the stuff is a conceptual approach to a contemporary look with some retro touches. The entire hull is s&g plywood with a strip-built deck surface. An easy boat to build and quite light for launch handling

I see this boat with a 5-8 hp outboard, terrific fuel mileage and room to stash any gear necessary for a nice trip on the water in classic motoring style. It could also be a very cool harbor cruiser with a significant other.

A very simple enclosure from the windscreen aft would keep out the rain and the sides could be stripped away to provide a sun relief Bimini if driven in hot weather.

[skyl4rk]

Is that a planing or displacement hull? At the design weight, are the sponsons in the water all the time or just when it heels?

[Claus Riepe]

Coastal dayboat with classic looks, trailerable, waterballasted:

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/102/64/

I have the bigger sister, the 22ft. SeaRaider, but that is more in the raid racing line, not exactly for cruising in comfort.

Claus

[Raggi_Thor]

I like that one, the BayRider :-)

[Vega]

Claus, it is a very nice boat, but really minimalist, in what regards cruising;)

The 22ft is also a good looking one...and the stability is impressive, for a small daysailer.

[Chris Ostlind]

Skyl4rk,

Sponson Contact: The boat has a 6" hull draft when loaded. It has to heel 10 degrees to get the sponson to contact smooth water.

Planing: I'm not really looking for this boat to get on a plane. I was looking for ride comfort, modest cruising speeds and great mileage. This is a pretty light boat at 600 lbs displacement, so I wasn't looking to get it going very fast where the sea could beat the crap out of it on a short cruise down the coast. Hence, the small outboard, the small fuel tank and the easily driven hull shape.

[Willallison]

In my case, I was looking at a displacement hullform, with the inflatable tubes just clear of the surface at the transom, sweeping up to the bow well clear of the water - thus able to provide stability in what would otherwise be a very unstable hullform and giving ever increasing reserve buoyancy should you manage to bury the bow.
I guess a roll of only a couple of degrees before making contact with the water.
Hopefully I'll get a chance to do some modelling soon - I'll post some pics as soon as I have...

[Claus Riepe]

The 22ft is also a good looking one...and the stability is impressive, for a small daysailer.

Indeed the stability is crucial for coastal racing, as is the full RCD compliance for a category 'C' certificate through option No. 7.

There, the waterballast system has been a positive surprise, how efficient and versatile that is for such small trailerable boats. Swallowboats have really done a good job designing it. They did a test knockown for the press in Scotland. The boat righted like a cork, and within two minutes the crew was back aboard and she was sailing again in full swing.

Claus

[mattotoole]

Why not just combine the boat and trailer, and go amphibious? (http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/09/the_inventivene.html)

http://iftf.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/boat.jpghttp://iftf.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/car.jpg

[Willallison]

Early renderings of the displacement monomaran

[Chris Ostlind]

I like it Will. Very sleek. Do you have any figures on the L/B?

Did you look at any of the numbers with the added drag of the sponsons in a chop. That was what drove me with the above-water-flare on my hull. I've done a couple of Sit-On-Top kayaks that had a narrow beam in the water with a more or less, conventional, above-the-line hull flare and in a chop, they just turn to piglets. Though the enhanced stability is nice.

I suppose it's that fine line of compromise that will get you every time. Have you done any RIB's with similar, sponsons down low for "right now" firming-up? I have no experience in that area at all, so I'm doing a bit of speculating on this skinny cruiser idea. I had this fear that the boat would just fall over, get comfy there and not come back up again without a load of merit down low. So, now, that's my next task to address.. the placement of all the works and stuff.

Then, there's always the potential of an aft set of amas and forget about the flare.

Anyway, it looks very clean and efficient.

Chris

[Willallison]

I knocked up the model last night more to give you an idea of the shape I was envisaging than anything else. It needs quite a bit of refining. For instance I would proabably tighten up the radius of the chine a bit towards the transom.
From memory, the L/B was 11.5:1 - a bit or tweaking should increase that to 12:1, which if I recall correctly is the minimum desribale for a displacament catamaran hull
I've ridden in a couple of small (dinghy) RIBS that have tubes that almost touch the water near the transom whilst underway. They were very stable - and quick. Having the tubes toughing the water at rest made them very stable - as all inflatables tend to be. But of course, they were planing hulls, so lifted as they sped up, which mine wouldn't do

[Vega]

Early renderings of the displacement monomaran

It looks good;)

[skyl4rk]

Is there a way to get high efficiency at displacement speeds while still having a hull shape that will get up on plane?

[Chris Ostlind]

Both of the designs illustrate a slender hull displacment design concept that takes advantage of low power and high fuel efficiency. They would perfom much like a single catamaran hull, allowing much faster displacement speeds from the available power source.

Either of these designs could plane if one were to apply the necessary power, though the weight aft would change considerably from the larger engine, as would the low speed characteristics of the design, the overall balance fore and aft and the fuel consumption. The last reason is the most significant for a boat designed to do minimalist coastal cruising in this mode. The need to carry considerable fuel for the planing vessel changes everything about the design ideas and results in a much different boat.

In general, slender hulls do not plane as easily as do wide examples Will may have differing ideas on that approach, but that's where I'm coming from.

[Willallison]

Hmm - it's an interesting side-topic this one. I think it was covered - at least to some extent - in a thread titled slender planing hulls, or something similar.

I would sort of agree with Chris. A short, fat hull will get onto the plane at a lower speed than a long skinny one. But as speed rises, the drag affects the wider boat to a much greater extent. If you have acopy of Dave Gerr's Nature of Boats he discusses the idea of very skinny high speed boats, though not in any great technical detail.
There was a paper put out just recently - the author escapes me at the minute - about the subject. It was of a more technical nature, but still quite easy to understand without being a mathematical genius. "High speed slender planing hulls', or something like that.... Maybe someone else can recall....
...oh - age - it's a terrible thing - though far better than the alternative!

[Willallison]

This is the paper I was talking about, I think. Nigel Irens was the author
There are others - a quick google will soon find them...

[llamalookout]

This design gives excellent speed and stability on flat, chopy, and heavy seas:

http://www.earthrace.net/template_assets/images/translations/EarthRaceBoat.jpg

For their mission it has wave piercing hulls with minimal forward displacement to give a smooth ride in rough weather, as shown in this hot computer simulation:

http://www.earthrace.net/view.asp?webpage=26

[Guillermo]

...Here are those renderings I promised on that skinny cruising boat idea you penciled-up last week....
Nice boat, very much in the line of the displacement glider.
Cheers

[scotdomergue]

I think "best" is very much a matter of what the individual wants! I've just posted a thread on design of my personal ideal boat - that would fit in this category (as mentioned earlier, between canoe/kayak on one end and more typical cruising sailboat on the other).

[Sean Herron]

Hello...

I know you have all seen the development of this old project - but I am plugging it again - not literaly...:)

See http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/10020/size/big/cat//ppuser/3673 ...

SH.

[newinertia]

my ideal boat, but out of steel!
Matt Layden design

[newinertia]

Motor only, forget the complications of sail. 4-10 hp. outboard, change fore birth to a cargo hold, with removable davit with capacity of 400 lbs. Hinged cargo doors on deck to keep motorcycle inside. Centerboard compartment changed to dog quarters. Outrigger arm on port side for offloading cargo. I am open to observations on this design, construction to be mild steel. "simple is, as simple does" Lots of white epoxy paint and antifouling bottom, and Id cruise for the rest of my life.
Heavy boats just ride better, I would be interested in paying someone to develop this in rhino to be laser cut. I am a metal fabricator and sculptor by trade, I could build from offsets, but would rather it be a Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am project, done to exacting standards by one of you salty dog engineers.

[portacruise]

Here's something pretty minimalist:

http://picasaweb.google.com/adventuresofgreg/ExpeditionBoatBuilding#

Capable of making headway in 100 knot? winds...

Porta

[newinertia]

Go GREG GO!!!