Orange tooling Gel help

[j2nh]

New to the forum and new to working with fiberglass.
My situation.
Our water ski club (non-profit) just took delivery of a fiberglass water ski jump surface. The surface consists of 3 8X14 foot 100% fiberglass panels. The three sheets are fastened to the steel frame of the jump using 1/4 inch bolts countersunk into the surface.

My volunteer job is to figure out how to fill the countersunk holes and also to fill the seams where the panels come together. Panel gaps vary from tight to up to an 1/8 of an inch. Panels are made from "orange tooling gel".

If anybody on this fourm could offer any advice or point me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Jim

[fiberglass jack]

maybe u should not join the panels together with glass as the jump will have a lot of vibration and the bond may breck

[j2nh]

Possible. The panels are 3/8's of an inch thick and the frame is heavy steel. No movement. The main reason I need to fill the cracks is to create a smooth, no lip surface between the panels.

[fiberglass jack]

alright i see, first bolt her all down, take a grinder and remove a u shape channel along the joints about 6 inches 3 per side then lay up fiberglass and then fill with gelcoat and sand and polsh big job.

[fiberglass jack]

quick way is just fill the holes with some gel, and sand the joints flat if its well secure to the frame it should be ok

[j2nh]

Thanks Fiberglass Jack. Just a couple of more questions.

Where is the best place to get "orange tooling gel"? I have read that I will need to use a wax (sanding aid). True?

Thanks again.
Jim

[fiberglass jack]

any fiberglass sulply store will have it , make sure u say orange it comes in many colors and the orange they give u might not match, see if the guys u bought the panels can give u some, u will need to add 2% airdry way to the gel this will let it dry tack free and easy to sand, dont forget hardner as well, if u are buying the gel ask them to add the wax tell them what u are doing this way u wont have the grief of adding wax too much its rubbery to little says tacky

[Toot]

maybe u should not join the panels together with glass as the jump will have a lot of vibration and the bond may break

I was actually thinking about what a Wisconsin winter would do to the contraction and expansion of the panels.

How does the CTE of FRP panels compare to that of concrete?

[fiberglass jack]

all the outdoor waterslides here in canada hold up good -40 to plus 40

[ondarvr]

Why was it that these panels were made with tooling gel coat? I'm thinking you just happened to find some already made panels for a good price and decided to use them because tooling gel doesn't weather well. It's not formulated for UV, or water restistance, so the surface will become dull and start chalking much sooner than a gel coat designed for outdoor use. I'm not saying it won't work, other than cosmetics it should hold up fine.

[fiberglass jack]

looks like some flatsheet mould for making panels he probally picked them up cheap, where u get them

[j2nh]

The panels are specifically built for water ski jumps by a company in Florida. They have been used succesfully in this application for many years and are far from cheap. Because jumpers need consistancy from ramp to ramp at tournaments this type of panel from this company has become the standard. I can only conclude that years ago they chose orange tooling gel and never changed it. International water ski jumping rules do require an orange surface.

One more quick question. What is the proper way to clean the panels before we do any gelcoat work? I read somewhere that acetone is a good cleaner for this but I want to confirm before we use it.

[fiberglass jack]

acetone will work also styrine

[tja]

Hello, The other reason the seams need to be filled is so the water spray system at the top of the ramp works properly. The water has to traval from the top all the way to the bottom. What you don't want to use is some type of caulk as the skies will catch and that could hurt. I built a custom jump about fifteen years ago and after it was bolted down I glassed the seams. Since your bolts go through from the top make sure that you use stainless bolts. If a bolt breaks and comes up and you don't see it you can catch a ski. That is what happened to the owner of the one that I built before he had me make one that attached from the bottom. He suffered a broken leg. So inspect your ramp regularly. Good luck.

[j2nh]

Thank you tja, you are correct on all counts. We use a 1/2 hp sprinkler pump on shore with a hose running out to the jump. A 1/2 inch pvc pipe runs along the top with holes drilled in it. Water then lubricates the entire surface when we are jumping. Once installed and we glass the seams we will then apply a thin coat of USA Waterski jump wax. Application is done by hand with an cheap iron (not my wifes). Fastening is being done with 1/4 stainless fasteners with nylock nuts to prevent just what you describe.

Last question I hope. What kind of 24 hour temperatures should we shoot for when gel coating? We are currently in the 60's during the day but night times are getting cool (40's).

[fiberglass jack]

a little to cold are u doing it outdoors

[j2nh]

Yes we are outdoors. There is simply no way to transport the jump to an indoor location. Other option we are considering is building a temporary sturcture with tarps and heating with propane. What sort of temps should we be looking for for application and then for the next 24 hours?

[fiberglass jack]

the thing is gelcoat needs around 70 ,on a good day the sun will heat the jump and the gel will cure fast, all you need is a simple tent and some heaters, make sure you leave enough room to work if u try to cover after spraying the tarp may drop on the jump thrust me murphy will be with u, go with 3% hardner and u should be fine, the hotter the better for curing gel

[fiberglass jack]

the gel coat should be ready to sand in 3 to 6 hours if its still soft after that u have a problem some times the cold weather will retard the gel and the chemicals separate if this happens wash it off with acetone and go again, with the heat you should only need 6 hours not 24

[j2nh]

Thanks Jack, I am Murphy when it comes to things going wrong. Will watch the weather and start putting together a tent.
Appreciate all of the help.
Jim

[adamfocht]

Gel coats (especially tooling gel coats) are formulated to use at around 70 degrees. So if you have a consistant 60 degree temperature, adjust the catalyst ratio of your gel coat accordingly. Most tooling gel coats I've used are formulated for a 1.8 to 2.2% mixing ratio. This basically means that for each quart of gel coat, add 18 to 22 cc of catalyst and then 2% wax additive (20 cc). At 60 degrees you should have about a 15-17 minute working time and roughly a 30 minute gel time once applied.

Are you sure it's a tooling gel coat? I only ask because tooling gel coats don't hold up to UV nearly as well as standard gel coats, and are more brittle and prone to stress cracking than standard gel coats.

good luck

[j2nh]

Positive. Orange Tooling Gel. As I memtioned earlier this was used many years ago on the first fiberglass surface. Some of those surfaces are still in use today (20 years). Because of the need for consistancy between jump ramps Orange Tooling Gel, for better or worse, is the standard.

[fiberglass jack]

tooling gel is a iso resin and some are vinyalester. regular gel is orth, the tooling gel for jumps would have a uv block added , tooling gel can handle the heat and stress thats why its used for tooling, the problem is if the fiberglass is layed up with GP resin ortho this would cause stress on the gel as its iso and contract differently this is why u will see stress cracks tooling gel is far better only that it costs more, i only use tooling gel iso i buy it clear so i can make it what ever color i want