Building a hull mold, has anyone done this???

[gbaaron]

I was wondering if anyone has done this?
Take an existing hull, pull a female mold from this hull to then make your own hull. I have done many repaires / rebuilds on older boats and am very familiar with fiberglass repair but I have never built a boat from the ground up. I thought at first I would design and build my own hull but I would rather use a design that has already been proven and tested.

The design would be a 25'-28' non step offshore / performance style V-hull. Similar to the mid to late 80's formulas.

Any info is much appreciated.

[Verytricky]

Looks to be a duplicate post: Duplicate answer...

It is called splashing, and is theft. You can do so if the boat design owner gives permission.

[PAR]

What you suggest is quite illegal. It's called "splashing" and if it was one of my designs, you'd not want to run into me in a dark alley, 'cause I stomp you for the theft of my efforts.

How would you feel if someone stole you work and made a boat from it?

[fiberglass jack]

you could do it , and its illegal so i wouldnt advise to do it, but have worked in very large boat shops and what they would do is add a couple of inches by slaping a few sheets of wood on the transom and change the strikes a little before making a mould this way the boat you will make is slightly different, the rule of thumb is that if the hull doesnt fit a mould of the original ur safe make sure u have a good law firm on your side, sorry guys but everyone knows of this method, and buddy if your going to build a mould its going to cost u 50000 us and up so spend a few dollars and build a proper plug

[ChrisF]

If you use an existing hull, no matter how you change it, it is still theft, still actionable, and still despicable.

[fiberglass jack]

thats why u keep the first one u make and say that is what u used and sink and burn the one u copied hire illegals to build it they dont like to talk, also hire a good law firm ,one who likes to boat. ive seen it done many times bad **** i dont agree with it, nowadays with auto cad and cnc router quicker to run a plug off then fix a hull for a mould

[gbaaron]

Wow my intentions were not to piss anyone off. Until now it never crossed my mind that this would be unethical.
To those of you that could set me strait without being rude, thank you, I appreciate it.
And the one that couldn’t, all I can say is that you can really make a new member / beginner boat builder feel welcome.

One more thing. I highly doubt that you would want to meet me in a dark alley.

[fiberglass jack]

glad to be of help 2u

[Toot]

I agree that the project, as presented may be illegal, but a little question here. I'm no IP lawyer, but my impression is that it is only illegal to copy something if it is for profit or public use. Personal use is ok.

If I buy a book and I want to carry a chapter with me, I don't need to buy a second copy and take a pair of scissors to it- I can just photocopy the pages and use them.

If I buy a CD, I can legally rip a copy to my iPod (no matter how difficult RIAA make it to do, it's still legal unless the terms of the Licensing Agreement say otherwise and to my knowledge they never do).

So, by analogy, doesn't it follow that if I own a boat and I make a mold from my boat and produce a part for my own boat, that I haven't really "stolen" anything?

Of course, selling the mold, or the parts from said mold would be illegal. And it's not cost effective to build a mold for a single piece. However, I don't think it's any more illegal to do it on a hull, than it is to do it on a sail. And I believe that after a guy designs a sail for your vessel, you don't pay him a royalty every time you have a new sail made! You paid once for the design. You have a right to use it on your boat. Or are all you guys saying that it's theft every time you have a new sail made?


I suppose those guys that buy dataplates from classic cars and rebuild an all-new car around the data plate are also engaging in theft, then?

In other words, if you buy a boat on its last legs, in desperate need of having EVERYTHING repaired, I do believe you can pull a mold of everything and make a "new" boat and scrap the old one. It's really no different than buying an old wooden boat and rebuilding bulkheads or whatever. You aren't stealing, you're just repairing and replacing. The only difference is that when it comes to FRP boats, the pieces are a lot bigger. What? Do you think it's different merely because the hull is one piece rather than hundreds of pieces? Do you think there's a limit to what size of a piece you can replace when restoring a boat?

Of course, by the time it's all done, you'll have spent twice as much money on the molds as on the boat itself, but I don't think it's illegal. I *think* it would even be legal to sell a part from your mold to another owner of the same vessel, so long as you only charged him for your labor and the part was only going to be fitted to an original vessel. I also think you could sell the mold to him so long as you charged him only for the time and materials of constructing the mold. Of course, after it's out of your hands, you know good and well that it might be used to illegally knock off boats, and that can be an ethical or legal problem, but in and of itself, I don't think it's illegal to sell the mold- only to use it for certain purposes. Of course, an inspector is going to scrutinize a new boat to a greater degree than a "repaired" boat, and if laws change regarding what's "acceptable", the old boat may be grandfathered in while the new boat wouldn't be... but that's another reason why it's customary in the car world to transfer the data plate and a few bits and pieces of the "old" car to the "new" car- so that you can still say it's a restoration. And so long as the original is really stripped of its usefulness, no harm is done... except to the new boat manufacturers who, of course, want to sell you the latest and "greatest".

[FAST FRED]

Without "Splashing' to start out there would be no boatbuilding industry today in Tiawan.

A single copy , not for sale , is usually fine with most countrys copyright laws.

FAST FRED

[resurrected]

Are you doing this to get into the buisness, or to build your own cool custom boat?

Unless you wish to change the layup you can just mod what you have, like I am doing. 1978 Formula 233

[Poida]

Nothings illegal, only getting caught is.

The law only targets ordinary citizens.

I do a bit of design work and when I did my apprenticeship some 35 years ago in design and development we took competitors products apart to see how they did things especially a new development.

Look at cars, you don't know the make at times until you see the logo. When hatchbacks were common how many brands built one, 4 wheel drives became popular, and they're out there in all brands

And they try and make common citizens feel like criminals if they do it.

Probably the boat you are going to copy is not in production any more and the manufacturers have designed a new one and couldn't give a rodents rectum if you copied it or not.

Although it seems like a lot of effort for one boat.

[gbaaron]

This would actually be to make 4 to 6 custom boats. All built the same, same hull, same power, same outdrive. The use would be to start up a type of amateur boat racing, somewhat like mini offshore racing. Including myself there are four of us at this point looking at getting into this. To start we would split the cost of building the mold, from then we would build a prototype, and then each member would be responsible for building there own boat. After that if anyone wants to join they would pay there share of the original mold material and use the mold to build there boat.
As stated before this would be modeled after a late 80's power boat design. Not sure but original builder probably doesn’t concentrate on that design anymore.

If you check out Sunsations web sight the owner admits that this is how he got started in the business. It probably happens more often than we hear of.

Toot-thanks for the comparisons, makes me feel a little better about the question, and your right is happens in many other industries and markets and people don't consider it illegal or unethical.

Thanks for the replies guys.

[gbaaron]

So the next questions are (if its ok to ask) who has done this? Again this is not for profit or to get into the retail boat business.
What steps were taken to get to a finished product? what problems did you encounter? How was it done?

Resurrected, nice project, do you have anymore pics. I'm in the middle of a similar project on a 20' Baja.

[resurrected]

Thanks, I have lots of pics of progress to date, unfortunately it has not progressed much since these. It just has a guide coat on it now, ready for gel... just waiting for my guy to spray it, I've painted lots, but never used gel.
How much work are you doing to the Baja?

[gbaaron]

Well this project is kind of going backwards, I bought the boat five years ago with the intentions of useing it and not a full restoration. A year later I painted it. The year after that I found a soft spot in the floor and then the complete resto began. Stringers, floor, custom interior, thinking of replacing the mercruiser 350 with a 383 stroker.
Send me a link to any pics you may have of your project. Its hard to find poeple that are working on similar projects. Most other sites I have found cater more towards the old wood boats, an small glass runabouts.

[Verytricky]

It does not matter if you consider it morally right or wrong, or if you have a good lawyer and think you can get away with it.

The point is: When the boat was designed, the designer spent time and effort to get the best boat he could, and through his endevors created a design.

Do you think it should be correct that you can just take the design and make several copies? Where is the payback for the designer. - Cauldron in Malta is another successful boast builder who 'splashed' the work of an english designer. Because labour costs are cheap in Malta, he outpriced the English guy, and the business closed down. These are the Europe famouse 'Phantom Design' boats.

Looking at the fine print: If you buy a boat that is trashed, and make a plug, build the replica and then destroy the original, I dont think that would be illegal or morrally wrong. When you make copies and allow these copies to be functioning at the same time, you are doing the designer/builder/owner of the design out of a sale.

If you photocopy a book for reading on a train, and at the same time the book is at home on the shelf, this is fine. You have bought the right to read the book. But when you lend/sell/give the book to another person, and you continue to read the photocopy then that is when the criminal act occurs. ( it may not be criminal by legal definition and only 'actionable' in a civil court, but the act creates a 'wrong' which can be addressed by a court.

[resurrected]

This shows some of the work!

The engines are merc re-man, and the drives are new, they were half pice compared to a local dist.

http://formulaboatsforum.com/forumtest/index.php?topic=215.0

[waikikin]

So where does splashing start & end, I reckon its pretty uncool:eek: to wholesale Steal a designers shape & the massive investment of material & effort made by the plug/mold builder in creating a fabulous fair finish, but what about using sheet glass or laminex or melamine sheet? Is the molding of flat panel products off these surfaces stealing the "shining" efforts of those companys that manufacture flat products such as these. Molding off formply(yuck) should be ok, 'cos it's sold for that purpose. If I give the flat surface I've molded a quick wetndry sand & buff up, is that recreating the surface to be mine? Is the application of wax/ PVA recreating that surface to be mine?Using bits of plastic kitchenware as step molds or whatever is definatly stealing the toolmaking of the plastic company that made it. But what do you reckon, can I sleep easy:cool: or should I be consumed by feelings of guilt for my surface splashing sins? Jeff.:o :o :(

[resurrected]

Kitchen utensils! That's very inovative!