It looks like Bondo!

[glassr]

Hi everyone,
We took on a job for a simple sole replacement on a boat with an inner liner.
When I said simple,I should have said simply buy another hull!
We got the inner liner up off of the hull on the a frame hoists.
All of the structure(3/4" plywood )for the floor was rotten.
And once we got a real good look at the rest of the hull thats where the problems began.
To make a long story short,the owner wanted the hull repaired so we were pretty much stuck.
We removed the tanks and all wiring ,motors and bracket,tabs and all accessories.
We cut out all stringers and bulkheads and started grinding down all of the old glass to prep for the re-install.
Then we found a material that looks like Bondo that was used to fill the strakes( I hope this is the correct term) that run fore to aft along the hull bottom.
They had cracks running lengthwise but not the full distance on each one.
We only found these due to the big cracks in the material where the tanks had been removed.They material was covered with chopped strand.
We are in the process of grinding all of this material out.
It is very time consuming.Could we just remove what is loose or delaminated and fill in with chopped glass fibers and some micro balloons?
I am pretty sure you all will suggest grinding all of the existing filler out and replaceing all of it with new filler.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[marshmat]

Egad. This does not sound fun.
Afraid I don't have many ideas other than what you describe. There are no cheap fixes or shortcuts with fibreglass. You either do it right, or do it again in two years.
I'm not quite sure, though, what's up with this filler. Do you have any photos you could post? If we had a better idea just what it's doing, it might be possible to find a better solution.

[ondarvr]

It's common to fill the strakes with putty after the skin coat, this makes the rest of the glass work go faster by not having to roll the air out them.
If the strakes are in good condition with no cracks, then I don't see why you would need to remove the putty, but if there are problems with the putty, or cracks that need to be repaired, it would be best to remove it.

[fiberglass jack]

i agree with ondarvr about the putty done it many times,even before the hull is skined alot of laminators put some paste into corners helps with the air and is easy to roll out but makes for a shity boat

[Toot]

What kind of "putty" is it that you/they use, Jack?

[fiberglass jack]

looking for the trade secrets toot, shes a homemade putty, first get your gelcoat and mix some resin into it, then add hardner, this is v important,and stir well, add milled fiber and then cabosil, and some aluminum trihydrate this will ease any exotherm, some throw in micro ballons and talc, its important to add the hardner before the powder to make sure the resin will cure and wont have soft spots but dont make it hot or it will kick on u , what a lot of guys do is have the paste powder mixed up and just make paste as they need it

[fiberglass jack]

what ive been using is premade fairing putty and adding some milled fiber and aluminum trihydrate it works good and saves me time, some places use corebond which is a pain to mix, but go easy with it just use a little to much is not good

[Toot]

Wow. If I'm going to spend my time mixing that many ingredients together, it'd damn well better taste like a twinkie when I'm done! ;)


Seriously, interesting info. Thanks.

[fiberglass jack]

forgot to tell u on a industrial job, up in northern canada we forgot to bring cabosil to make paste , went to the general store bought all the talc they had didnt have much so we ended up using flour nice smell flour baked with resin

[Toot]

forgot to tell u on a industrial job, up in northern canada we forgot to bring cabosil to make paste , went to the general store bought all the talc they had didnt have much so we ended up using flour nice smell flour baked with resin

If only you would have also added a bit of baker's yeast into that concoction...

I suspect you could've gotten some extra buoyancy out of it! :P

[glassr]

Hi everyone,
I hope the pics that I'm posting come out alright.
We got the rest of the grinding done where the stringers and bulkheads were attached today.
I even went to the trouble to grind out the fillets that were for the main stringer.
I found alot of hairline cracks in the fillets, so we didn't want to leave any room for doubt.
Marshmat ,the pics of the hull are about 8' fore of the stern where the fuel tanks are placed with a 19" tall center stringer.
I am beginning to believe the cracking of the filler was due to heavy use in rough seas.
I don't remember that many of the fillers from the late 80's early 90's,but the one they used in this boat stunk!
The last pic is of the filler with a blacktop background.
Ondarvr,is it a common occurrence for filler materials to crack like this,or is it just another case of shoddy prep work.
Also we did not find any cracking in the underlying mat nor from the bottom side did we find any gelcoat cracking.(we were lucky)
I talked to the owner today,and needless to say he was not pleased.
He made a 50mi. roundtrip just to see for himself and to cry on my shoulder about the potential costs.
And to top it all off when he was there, he was tapping the transom where we removed the engine bracket and found a whole lotta voids.
So tomorrow, after I get finished grinding out about 80' of filler (6 strakes along hull),I get to remove the transom too.
Fiberglass jack is the aluminum trihydrate available at most marine supplies? Or do I have to get it from a specialty store?
And lastly the hull is sitting on its trailer and is supported pretty well on its bunks up about 12' from the stern(30' hull).We also placed another cross support between the two that are forward on the trailer. It seems pretty sturdy and level.
I was just concerned that with all of the material that we have taken out of the hull that we should build a rack to set it on?
Thanks for your time everyone!

[Toot]

My suspicion is that if it stinks, it's probably got something biological in there. Flour, probably. I have never done a rehab on anything like that, but that's just my hunch.

In fact, that's always been my concern with using flour- is the rotting issue. Of course, most of it is encapsulated in resin, so you don't have the problem right off the bat, but over time, as that resin cracks and lets air and moisture in, I'd imagine it could get stinky just as you've described.

It's just my hunch though.

[fiberglass jack]

you can get trihydrate at most fiberglass sulply shops, the pastr should have plenty of milled fiber and some lose chop strand this will stop cracking. if they put the paste in thick it is natural for the paste to crack during the cure from the heat fiber will stop this

[glassr]

Hi everyone,
Toot, I didn't mean that the filler stunk, I mean't the job stunk! Sorry about that .
Thanks for the info on the aluminum trihydrate fiberglass jack.
I guess when they built this hull in 1990 they were probably mixing their filler pretty hot,that would explain the cracking filler which is all over the place, even in the resin they used.
As I started grinding again today, I found that as I ground through the top layer of chopped strand it would slowly delaminate until I reached the filler.
Tomorrow starts another full day of grinding to finish removing the filler.
Now when we mix our filler material what is our best mix ratio? I will add the aluminum trihydrate like fiberglass jack said. The epoxy resin to milled fiber to cabosil ratio I'm looking for I guess is one that won't do what the original filler did.Any suggestions? Hopefully as soon as the owner decides on the stringer, transom materials we can get that done.
We want some weight savings so we're going with 1" NidaCore with 2 layers of bi-directional with epoxy resin to support the inner liner floor/deck/sole.
I just haven't decided on the fiberglass weight (6oz,12oz or 24oz) and the orientation of the 2 layers.
Should we roll the bi-directional out fore to aft on the first layer and on the second layer, roll it perpendicular to the first layer.
I would really like to try and vacuum bag the inner liner part of the job.
The inner liner main section will use about 48 sq.ft. of NidaCore in section no more than 3-4 sq.ft.,and the nine hatches will be about 48sq.ft..There are (6) 14"x24" deck hatches, (1) 36"x72" fish box (1)24"x24" livewell hatch and three 16"x72" center fuel tank covers under the center console.
We 'll experiment on the smaller hatches first to get the procedures down. If you all need a better idea of the inner liner I'll take some pics of it.
I have been reading and seeing alot about vacuum resin infusion and thought that this might be the right job to try it on .
The boat won't go back in the water until spring anyway according to the owner so we have time to work out any problems.

If you all think we're going about this wrong please let me know, epoxies and core materials aren't cheap and I dread costly mistakes.
If any of you have suggestions throw them at me,you guys have way more knowledge than me about the finer types of fiberglass repairs.
Thanks again.
I'll post more pics if anything interesting turns up.

[ondarvr]

glassr

The putty really doesn't do anything but take up space, I've seen scrap wood, foam, card board and other things used to make the hull flat over the strakes, I don't think junk putty is a great way to do it, but you would be amazed at how many boats are made that way. Most use a low cost, light weight putty.

[fiberglass jack]

hey have to use up that shity old resin and gel some way, worked in many shops and seen it all, the crap that is used will blow ur mind,but time is money thats the way some shops look at it , on my boat i spend the time and roll into the strikes takes a little longer

[JR-Shine]

Its putty - resin and filler. Best bet is to make your own with epoxy and filler.

[glassr]

Hi everyone,
It's been two long days of grinding that mystery filler!
We'll finish that tomorrow,hopefully.
fiberglass jack would you suggest we epoxy in some stips of 6or12oz. biaxial cloth to take up the space? We've got a bunch of 3" strips around that I would like to use up.
Ondarvr,I wish they would have used another material as filler,this stuff is junk!
JR-Shine if we go with the epoxy/filler route, what would you suggest as far as the mix? Would you go with epoxy,micro balloons,chopped glass?
Or do you have a better mix in mind?
I suggested to the owner today that we should run two layers of 45/45 biaxial cloth from fore to aft on the inside of the hull after the strakes are filled.We were thinking of using 12oz.
If this seems like overkill to you all, I don't want anything to fail within a reasonable amount of time and I want to do this job once and never ever again!
I also got the ok to search for the best solution for the stringers and bulkheads.The owner does not want any wood in the boat.
Would any of you suggest using NidaCor in the stringers and bulkheads? Or is it best just to use it on floors? I thought I read where it doesn't do well in shear.
And of the core foams,what would be the best for longevity/strength?
BTW the stringers and bulkheads are all getting two layers of 45/45 biaxial cloth and will be tabbed in with biaxial, we just haven't decided on the weight of the cloth. If anyone has a better suggestions let me know.
I'm going back to sweep up and shovel more dust. I am itchy!

[A Fn Noob]

Hello. I am repairing a Ranger BassBoat and am trying to absorb as much knowledge about boat repairs as I can; just like the foam beneath my deck absorbed water.... Haha

Anyway, Im sold on using epoxies, and have procured most of the materials I will need to replace the stringers, plywood deck, and foam. Im cutting the stringers to fit and nearly ready to get underway.

I realize that once I go "epoxy", I cant "go back", but it's ok to use some polyester filler to smooth out areas that once cured, would make it easier to roll out my epoxy & fiberglass over the top, right?

Is the bond between polyester and polyester a mechanical one, or a chemical one?


I dont have access to any books to reference, Im in the sticks. The local library hasnt bought a new book since 1984, and the books they had on boats and fiberglass have been checked out since 1996.

[Richard Hillsid]

All these good mixtures above. I recon I have the most grouse one ever, for a filler but first another project.

WHAT is IT

9891

To help out, exported from England.

Now to the worst , we needed to build bulk to a tool and fast, a rush job, order came in at 5 pm. and we were far from anywhere to by anything, all at hand was 100 Kg’s of polyester and some catalyst for it. Nothing else, no gloves, no fibber, no acetone, no anything…. we discovered a construction site down the road, and bought some fibreglass insulation 10 cm thick this turned out very tricky to get wet, but the outcome was ok and not too heavy either.

[glassr]

Hi Fn Noob, Use epoxy with epoxy.Don't mix your resin types.Take epoxy resin mix it with hardener and add microballoons or cabosil for consistency and add aluminum trihydrate for exotherm (so the mix won't get too hot),then go ahead and apply it for your fillets.Check the search area on this website for the books for fiberglass work.There are all kinds of websites with the books and there are alot of great posts from very knowledgeable people on this website! Use the search feature and you will learn alot!
Richard Hillsid,that foam looks like Diab to me, but I could be wrong.And not having all of the necessary tools and materials for a rush job usually spells disaster!

[A Fn Noob]

No, I wouldnt mix the two, but Im asking basically if I can make my "fillets" with cheaper poly filler (Like at the auto store), let them cure, and then lay up my epoxy resin & cloth over it. With the cost of the epoxy resins, it would be cheaper to use polyester filler initially to pave a smooth surface on which to lay my new fiberglass cloth & epoxy resin.

I realize that I can apply poly over epoxied surfaces (reliably) but I havent started fiberglassing yet.

[glassr]

Hi, A Fn Noob
We don't use poly or vinyl resins at all, ever. I want my fillets to be sound over the long haul. All of the repairs and hull lay ups we do are put through alot of punishment by our customers. We don't use any auto store fillers either. With that stuff you 're just asking for trouble. I know epoxy is expensive, my accountant(my wife) complains about material costs constantly.
But if you want to build a quality structure for yourself or a customer, bite the bullet and spend the cash on the epoxy. It pays off in the long run!
Sincerely,
glassr

[fiberglass jack]

its a bassboat more then likly it was layed up with poly, save your money and use vinyalester it will bond v good to poly , its not like hes going to be doing a buck twenty on the water, for your fillets use some cabosil and milled fiber add this to the resin ( add the harder to the resin first then the filler this way all the putty will go hard and u wont have soft spots) remember epoxy over poly and never the other way around, some people will go on about transition resins and so on, all i ever use is V E when repairing poly and in the past have just used poly most shops just use poly for repairs even thou they will tell you different

[glassr]

I guess we just like overkill,no failures, no complaints,no bad reps.Fiberglass Jack, I have a bass boat(Talon 20)that does 92mph on gps. It scares the heck out of me and friends being that close to the water going that fast!
All of the glasswork was done with West System epoxy and it is virtually bullet proof. But just damn too expensive if it is out of your own pocket!

[Jimbo1490]

glassr, you ought to look into buying drums of epoxy and blending the curing agents and modifiers to fit your needs. It's not really all that hard to do; the old Shell Resins website was a freakin' goldmine of info for the would-be formulator. I see that much of it was taken down when they sold the resin biz off a few years back. There was no money in epoxy back when oil was so cheap. I was lucky enough to have downloaded and printed much of it back then. Epoxy resin winds up only about $24 a gallon when you cut out the middle man. The manufacturers are still pretty generous with samples so you can try out different hardeners and modifiers till you come up with a combo(s) you like.

BTW, West is reputed to be nothing more than Epon 828, the standard epoxy resin, with a mono-epoxide thinner and a blend of amines for hardener. Of course the exact formula is a trade secret, but all the stuff is available in bulk for way less.

Jimbo

[glassr]

Hi Jimbo , Thanks for the info about the resins, we try only to buy enough for each job with not much left overs due to such small profit margins that we seem to have. We stay busy, but it just seems to get more expensive every day!I wish we could afford to buy drums,I have a 36' cc cat I want to build but the accountant (my wife) says "Are you nuts?" Jimbo you are pretty close to us being from Orlando. Who do you get supplies from?
Thanks,
glassr

[Jimbo1490]

My favorite resin is from a company called CVC specialty chemicals out of New Jersey:

http://www.cvcchem.com/

Their distributor was out of Atlanta, though that seems to have changed since the last time I bought. Their lowest grade resin is the chemical equivalent of Epon 862, though it is actually an improvement over that in that it has much lower viscosity than 862. This is a 'bisphenol F' resin rather than a standard 'bisphenol A' resin like 828. BPF resins make a stronger, harder, less brittle, more chemical and heat resistant cured epoxy than BPA resins and they are thinner viscosity.

The last quote I got from their distributor was about $38/gallon by the 5 gal pail or $29/gal by the drum.

Jimbo

[A Fn Noob]

Well, Im no expert on boats, but the after tearing into this one, it's clear that polyester does a very poor job over time of adhering to wood. I got some fairing-stuff from the place I got my resin.

btw, the hull on this bassboat was designed by a guy named Paul Allison.

Thanks for the answers.