water logged floatation problems

I just purchased a 1965 Chris Craft Corsair-Sun Lounger, It is a 18' fiber glass boat. I was amazed at the perfect condition the boat, engine, outdrive was in. HOWEVER,,,,,,,,, I was going to clean the inside out. I tilted the boat up and removed the drain plug. I noticed a little water coming out. I thought it was just some water that might have slipped in with the last rain we had. Much to my surprise, the water just kept coming out. I noticed it was coming from around the front engine mount on the floor. I removed one of the engine mount bolts. That's when my dreams came crashing down around me. It appears that while it had been stored outdoors with a cover for a few years, water had penetrated the subfloor area. I called a friend who does fiberglass work. He removed a 12"x12" area of the floor. The floatation is soaked. I have put the boat in an almost straight up position. Some of the water has drained, but it appears that the whole floor has to be cut out. Then I would have to remove all the foam ??????? Is this the only solution??? Do I have to put new foam in??? It looks like it was sprayed in. I knew the boat seemed a little heavy, but I thought it was a solid boat. What to do. Will the stuff ever dry????? The floor is molded in to the boat. So it will need to be cut carefully. Any ideas??????

Thanks for any and all responses,
Mr. Lamothe
josiahlamothe3@hotmail.com

I've heard of people speeding up the core or foam drying process by:

1.) drilling a pattern of 1/4" holes and using either a shop vac or a vacuum bagging pump combined with a condenser (so the water won't harm the pump) to try and suck the water out of the core.

2.) drilling two holes, one at a high point and one at the lowest point possible. Then hook an air compressor up to the higher inlet hole and apply some air pressure to try and force the water to migrate out of the foam faster.

I have no idea if either of these methods will work, but it could be something to look into.

If the boat is stored indoors and kept on a trailer in the summer covered well, it might be ok to simply let the foam dry out, especially if it’s just in the cockpit floor that it’s really wet right now. The mention that “it was coming from around the front engine mount” makes me worried though – I don’t know how your boat is built but I would be concerned if the stringers, etc. are isolated from the wet floor. If they are waterlogged or rotten, you could be in for bigger problems in the long run.

If the boat is kept in the water where it will always be a little damp, or if the water is near any structural areas, e.g. the stringers supporting the engine mounts, and the boat is otherwise a nice boat, I would be inclined to address the issue now, removing the foam, replacing it with good quality closed cell foam that will not absorb water, and then re-glassing over it.

This page makes for an interesting read: High Tech Materials In Boat Building
- The Pros and Cons of Space Age Materials in Boat Building What it Means for the Consumer by David H. Pascoe, CMS (http://www.yachtsurvey.com/HiTech.htm) if you're on the edge trying to talk yourself into a rebuild-process. The picture half way down and the quote "The gunk pouring out of this hull is the result of complete water saturation of the foam core. Hydraulic action - panting of the inner and outer skins - pulverized the foam and turned it to black mush. Once the foam degraded, the laminate weakened and split open, sinking the boat" would probably be a good one if you're trying to talk yourself into redoing it.

I'm really not sure how severe the problem is or what all structures might be waterlogged right now or over the long run either casuing a loss of stiffness or casuing other structures to flex, rot, or fail. I wish I was more familiar with your boat.

[trouty]

Panel beater/auto spray painters "Baked enamel" microwave oven...park boat in and turn on...

3 mins at high or until the egg you put on the front seat is hard boiled! ;o)

Take that with a grain of salt (the egg!!)

OK - look I was jesting with the 3 mins and egg, but a microwave oven big enough to get that boat into might turn the water to vapour and expel it under pressure as a gas thru the bung holes etc...

Obviously you'd remove things like batterys and any expensive electrical equipment like sounders radios and the like...as well as any removable seats cushions, upholstery etc.

If it works - sell it to some other sucker fast as likely the wooden stringers and transom etc are likely rotted.....you could tell with a non invasive moisture meter available from Tramex (do a web search) whether the transom and stringers are saturated from outsie the hull.

If they are saturated then bank on em being rotted - fresh water (rain, lakes) rots wood fast, saltwater (ocean) doesn't.

You bought a pup - sell it quick.

At least it'll be lighter and go faster when you sell it after the waters out!

caveat emptor...

Cheers!

OK - look I was jesting with the 3 mins and egg, but a microwave oven big enough to get that boat into might turn the water to vapour and expel it under pressure as a gas thru the bung holes etc...
This makes me ask what temperature does fiberglass start to distort at? It's relatively low for non-tooling normal boatbuilding resin, isn't it?

[midnightkayaker]

I don't have a lot of experience with drying out hulls but I am in the process of hacking my way through a deck/transom/rubrail replacement on a worthless skiff.

I'll give you my two cents worth one penny at a time:

First of all, when it comes to houses and boats ANYTHING IS REPAIRABLE.

Second, that's a cool boat and if you like the model then replacing the deck and stringers (and all the other things you discover) is time well spent.

good luck, and post some photos please.

[gonzo]

The only way to get a satisfactory repair is to cut out the rotted wood, remove the waterlogged foam and replace them. Vacuum cleaners and drain holes will only get the water that's sloshing around. The foam in many old boats is "open cell"; in other words a sponge. Some of the low density close cell foam will deteriorate with age and the walls between cells break. It will also absorb a lot of water.
How does the plywood look in the area you removed? It is possible to remove the foam by cutting access holes, breaking it and then using a vacuum cleaner. The stringers are structural and an area of concern. The foam is also structural because it forms a beam between the bottom and the floor.

[Mike D]

Mr Lamothe

Near the end of your posting you ask a few questions but you full well know the answers.

What is not known is the scope of the damage but it is quite clear that is is extensive.

There is not much choice is there? Cut your losses and get rid of it.
Spend a long time removing the damaged parts and renewing them.High-tech micro-waving may work but then again it probably won't. Vacuuming and blowing hot air through might work but probably not. These would only dry the damage anyway, they can't repair it.

But (trouty will like this one) labor omnia vincit and at the end of it all laborum dulce lenimen

Michael

[trouty]

I guess the point with microwaving a hull to dry foam is this.

Some cars have fibreglass bodies - and even some metal ones have fibreglass panel repairs.

These "baked enamel" paints are then "microwaved" bye the auto body spray painter in a microwave "baked enamel oven".

The painter sould know the capabilities of his baked enamel oven.

It wouldn't IMO (no humble) hurt to ask a baked enamel oven painter if he thinks it would work.

Good luck, maybe if you put enugh eggs on the front seat, when they are hard boiled you could sell em and pay for the microwaving with the profits! ;o)

as an afterthought - you could always put a piece of wet foam and a small piece of fibreglass into the microwave baked enamel oven as a test first to see of theres any problems with either material.

Cheers!

[Tom Lathrop]

All of the floatation foams usually used by manufacturers are susceptible to solvents. Gasoline is a prime example. If you pour some into the foam compartment, the foam will turn into a liquid of small volume. There are also solvents that are probably safer to use but I'm not a chemist. Might help to get a better handle on the problem without spending a lot of loot.

[Black Bart]

When you get a lemon you make juice right? While cutting your losses may seem the prudent thing, few things are as satisfactory as repairing your own tub. So get yourself a decent jig-saw, and set the blade 1/16" less than your floor thickness. This is one of those situations where EXTREME patience must be used! Your problem now can be fixed, but you get too crazy with that saw and you're sunk. Don't mess around with trying to drill and dry and all that BS. Tear out the whole floor, replace it with a marine grade plywood from a reputable lumberyard(ie:not a hardware store). Be sure to get a proper seal using marine silicone and purchase a 2 part foam kit. Oh yeah, leave a de-humidifyer in the shop the whole time. Not a bad few weekends of good ol work and you'll be back on the water, and proud of yourself to boot. Good Luck Man!

**And if you biff it up, say hello to Davey for me! HAR HAR HAR ME MATEY'S!

[Guest]

Have a look at <http://www.hotvac.com/process/default.asp>
These folks have found a way to fix your problem, and there are several places that have their equipment in use. I have no idea what this service costs, but if youy can get the water out before the stringers are gone, it has to be worth every penny!!

[ted655]

The article may be arcived by now.
. http://www.yachtsurvey.com/ .

[Guest]

my boat would never get out of the water fast enough i tried prop after prop, someone suggested a posible foam saturation...

I have a problem alright exept i do not have foam i dont think.

I drilled a 4" hole in the center of the floor of my 16' Renkin Boat to find wood that is soaked!

It seems like the wood is molded in to the shape of my boat bottom.

Question is how much does the boat depend on that wood for strength? can i just cut it all away and add foam?

Thanks

Steve

[troy morse]

Been there,done that .One good answear as mentioned above is do it right the first time.Tear it all out,Shovel work good on the foam,if the foam is that bad then your floor is bad also.I like putting in the foam loose.Any water can be drained easily in the future.Supper seal your new stringers and deck,especially on the underside or you'll be back again within a few years.I don't like poured or blown foam for the reasons you are now suffering.

[paintacar]

Hi everyone, I have a thunderbird tri-hull, I don't know what year it is, but it is 20'. The boat seems to be in good shape, no hits or anything, however it was sitting, with the front elevated, for about ten years. the drain holes were clogged, and it had about 3" of water in the hull, at the back and in the two rear compartments(center) going from front to rear. I cleaned everything real good, and the fowardmost compartment seems fine, no problems, the wood is good and dry there.however the next compartment back which seems to be sealed off from the outside it has a 6" inspection plate with a gasket, well when I drained it the next day there was 2" of water again in that hole only. I dried it out again and it did not fill up with much again, maybe 1/2 " . we thought everything was fine, so I painted the floor started routing all of the cables for my motor, and when I used a hole saw on the rear deck section between the motor and the inside of the boat (this section is horizontal) for the power tilt lines to run through, I noticed that the board there is soaked, and soft like balsa wood. The floor of the boat is all dry and good. Then I wondered if the transom was the same, so I drilled the 1/2" hole to mount the motor, and the wood in the transom is wet too, and seems to be soft, there is a metal plate on the back inside and outside where I drilled also It is a 1978 merc 150 H.P. boat is rated for 250. I am worried about this, everything I have done so far I fear wasted. I am a autobody tech. and no spraybooth bake cycle will dry anything out, so don't even suggest such non-sense a spay booth uses natural gas and runs about 170 degrees. I am not up for removing any fiberglass or wood in this boat. I have done my share of fiberglass work, and it is not easy to just do it and have it look right, you need to also gelcoat and its not what I am interested in doing. I agree if the foam is saturated in the other guys boat, the only fix is remove it.Is there any thing I should really worry about with my boat, or is there another fix of reinforcing it?
thanks, paintacar
paintacar@comcast.net

[MATTRESS GUY]

I Had A 14' Aluminum Jon Boat And I Cut Foam And Put Between The Supports Of The Hull, I Then Screwed Marine Plywood On Top And Then Put Outdoor Carpet, 4 Yrs Later The Plywood Was Warp And Bowing Up All Over, So I Decided To Replace Just The Plywood, And When I Removed The Old Plywood, I Picked Up A Piece Of The Foam And It Was Sooo Heavy, But I Could Hold It For A While And No Water Would Come Out Of The Foam,,somehow The Water Was Trapped Inside The Foam And Couldnt Escape..now I Have A 24' Aluminum Jon Boat That Has A Factory Aluminum Floor With Foam In Between, And I Know That The Foam Is Soaked.i Dont Know What To Do, I Just Wonder If That Hotvac Will Dry That Foam Out With Out Cutting My Boat All To Pieces..if That Really Does Work , I Could Do That Every Couple Of Years..it Just Seems Like My Boat Is So Heavy..i Commercial Fish In Ky..so Weight Is Very Important To Me...

[rob kirk]

there is no way i would get in that boat & shower down on the throttle with out
fixen the floor & first of all the transom for sell signs are cheap

[PAR]

The foam used in the 60's 70' and 80's era boats wasn't closed cell, no amount of time in a baking oven will remove the moisture from the foam. I've seen 17' powerboats dragging several hundred pounds of water around with them in soaked foam. You can prop up the boat, drill holes, bake it, use fancy shop vacs, whatever, but the water will remain. The only way to insure it's removal is to get the foam out. It cuts easily, but is wedged into places where getting at it will require some effort and thought.

Poured in closed cell polyurethane is the way to go, regardless of what car painters have to say. It doesn't hold water, it can't and it conforms to the hull shape, gets into every corner so there will be no voids (which will fill with water) It can be purchased in different densities so that you can use it as structural support or pure floatation.

You don't have to have a leak to gain moisture in this old type of foam, folks. The condensation that naturally occurs, collecting on the underside and inside of a hull liner or deck support structure, will run down to the lowest point it can, where it will pool, or in these cases be absorbed by the sponge like material used as floatation. All boats, regardless of construction materials will have this happen to some degree. Wooden boats have these spaces well ventilated to allow the water to evaporate out of the space, but a lot of 'glass hulls are sealed up tight below decks and liners, not even having limber or drain holes trapping the moisture.

Painacar, your boat needs major structural repair, the transom, some stringers and floor will need be replaced. I know you don't want to do the work, but you could well be watching you engine swimming around under the back of your boat, attached by it's control cables after it's ripped itself off the very weakened transom. I've seen this happen and it's funny to watch if it's not your boat. The boat usually sinks pretty quickly missing the large chunks of transom the engine will tear out with it and having floatation already filled with water.

Mattress Guy and everyone interested, there is no magic goo in a can or special machine that will fix these issues (I know it sucks) I dig this crap out of boats a few times a year, trust me, if there was a way, I'd be using it.

The real problem is not only are you carrying the water around in your floatation, but it rots out the wooden support structure built into the boat. This is where the real damage gets costly. Transoms, stringers, engine beds and support pieces have to be renewed. Yes, you can replace the wood with other materials (foam) but it requires some engineering and a lot more 'glass work, which most amateurs don't really like to do. Wood is used because it self supporting (unlike foam which relies on the 'glass skin to provide all it's strength) easy to work into shape, easy to install, takes adhesives well and if the structure is well designed, long lived.

There's a reason these boats are considered disposable after so many years and also why they are so inexpensive when new. They are built with a limited life span in mind, unless stored in a climate controlled garage and used rarely, they literally break down from the flaws (like no internal drain holes) designed into the structure. Sure a much better designed craft could be built, but they'd cost twice as much and they'd sell less boats. So, the manufactures build lots of reasonably inexpensive boats that will need to go to the land fill, before your new born son can enjoy it during his high school years.

Now when I do rebuild a sole support structure, stringers or similar I do make the effort of installing limber holes and drains so the water can come aft to the transom plug. Once the deck is off, it becomes pretty obvious where the water was trapped and why. Fixing that isn't a lot of trouble so the repair will live longer then the boat was intended to survive. The question you have to ask yourself is the same one the boat manufacture executives have asked each other. How much more effort are we to put into this inexpensive boat?

[Richard Petersen]

IF you decide to start repairs ---Remember that there are built in spaces that MUST be kept the same number of inches apart . Before you start, take the heavy parts out of the boat. Eng., stern drive, gear, and anything else. This will stop any present distortion and help the deck- stringers- floor and hull bottom to return to as much as possible --to the original shape . DO NOT cut out big areas. Do 1 stringer-- than the other-- etc. If the floor feels springy , TAKE a measurement between it and the hull bottom , before pulling all the foam out. You may have to put in temporary foam blocks to support it during repairs. THINK AHEAD and you can remove and repair. If you smell fumes or get light headed--- get out of there FAST.------ Home Depot sells 10' lenghts of E M T electrical tubing 1/2" size. Buy 1. Cut with hacksaw, bend by hand into great hooks to rip and tear out the foam in a place you do not need to butcher up. No engineer, just time and patience. :)

[Dallas_B_]

My 25' bay boat had water log foam in it, So I rip out the old fiberglass CHOP out all the foam replaced old wood and went back with A&B mix foam. When you mix this up ...and if its hot outside work real fast. After it drys in about hour or less...just trim it flat...or put your new wood down and drill a few holes in the wood and pour in.

[Herman]

Polyurethane foam is closed cell. At least, for liquid water. Cell walls however are thin, and water vapour can transfer into the cells. This vapour slowly condenses. See what happens? after a while, the foam is filled with water.

In the first place, water, not in liquid form or as a vapour, should be allowed to get in contact with the foam. Ever. This is the only way to keep the foam dry, and the customer happy.

Personally I like boats with a number of hollow compartments better than boats filled with foam. Hollow compartments can easily be drained. Foam filled compartments can not.

[Richard Petersen]

The correct place for all flotation foam is way above the water line. That way the foam is never swiming in water. It will also keep your boat upright in most floodings. If the boat is overloaded and over weight by the designer, he is forced to put foam below the water line.