Personal Attacks Tolerated?

[Doug Lord]

I'm just curious why it appears that in some cases personal attacks are tolerated on this forum? The forum rules specifially prohibit that kind of thing.
Then you look at the "TP 52 " thread : hundreds of pages of personal attacks-why is that ok? And this weekend the 60'Moth thread was locked with the comment that the back and forth personal attacks are a waste of bandwidth. Couldn't agree more but why not delete the personal attacks instead of locking the thread?
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Boat Design Forums - FAQ: Terms of Use - Access Agreement - Forum Rules
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/faq.php?faq=terms_of_use

[Dan S]

As with any forum, what’s considered a personal attack depends on the views of the moderation staff. Under the “limitations of liability” section they specifically give you an out if you don’t like the way the staff runs the sight.

You specifically acknowledge and agree that Boat Design Net (boatdesign.net) is not liable for any defamatory, offensive, fraudulent, or otherwise illegal conduct of any user. if you are dissatisfied with any Boat Design Net (boatdesign.net) site content, or with the access agreement of Boat Design Net (boatdesign.net), in whole or in part, your sole and exclusive remedy is to discontinue using Boat Design Net (boatdesign.net).

Couldn't agree more but why not delete the personal attacks instead of locking the thread?

Very simple answer to this:
Watch the cops break up a crowd of boisterous onlookers. They simply disperse the entire crowd, even if only a few people are causing the issue. Why? Because it’s simpler and faster than having to root out a few individuals.

[longliner45]

DougLord;; just like welly. if he shows a picture of Mikel Jackson ,,many are offended,,,but if others show pictures of lude and nude .it is ok ,why?,,,,,longliner

[Toot]

As with any forum, what’s considered a personal attack depends on the views of the moderation staff. Under the “limitations of liability” section they specifically give you an out if you don’t like the way the staff runs the sight.

Not that I care in the slightest, but I will point out that that is silly. If I log on and defame someone who is not a member of the forum, the website operator may still be required to remove the defamatory language. I doubt that the fact that the person being defamed is a member here can be deemed to be a surrender of their right to that remedy.

Otherwise I could defame anyone who isn't a member here and, if they joined in order to refute my statements, they would be prohibited from having the defamatory statements removed- a rather bizarre result.

[westlawn5554X]

Sorry guys cant comment on this although wanted, low point stats.:)

[Frosty]

As with any forum, what’s considered a personal attack depends on the views of the moderation staff.

A personal attack can not be judged as a personal attack by any one but the attacker. The level of attack may not be recieved as an attack, maybe just freindly jabs.

On the other hand to some one sensative, a slight sarcastic jab may be a personal attack where non was infact meant.

Some people have an immunity to an insult and can tolerate high levels of strong banter before being insulted. Because of many reasons ,background, upbringing, even country of origin can make a personal attack differ.

A forum exists because of no otherer reasan than that it is interesting. Insults arise from emmotion and is a normal part of life. Give me a forum with an isult or two than the lame forum where converstations such as " I have just made a cup of tea and I thought I would just like to --

Sticks and stones.

[RANCHI OTTO]

I agree 100% with Jack...

[Doug Lord]

Interesting. My point was that since , apparently, Jeff knows how to recognize personal attacks why not delete them instead of locking a thread that is 70% technical discussion?
Especially in light of the on-going TP 52 thread-which is probably at least 70% personal attacks. Granted, a number of people obviously love to be entertained in that way.
But if personal attacks are tolerated as "entertainment" in one thread why in the world ruin a good technical discussion by allowing "personal attacks" to be the raison d'etre for locking the technical thread? Why not remove the offending "personal attacks" instead of locking the thread?
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See post 65 here:
60' Moth-A Preliminary Detailed Design Exploration - Page 5 - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13654&page=5

[Dan S]

But if personal attacks are tolerated as "entertainment" in one thread why in the world ruin a good technical discussion by allowing "personal attacks" to be the raison d'etre for locking the technical thread? Why not remove the offending "personal attacks" instead of locking the thread?
Doug,

As I said before, it is Jeff’s decision how individual instances get dealt with, and the forum guidelines are pretty clear, about what you should do if you don’t like how he handles things.

[Figgy]

Its about professionalism. Notice how the guys with the highest rep never bash on anyone? Ever heard Tspeer tell someone thier idea was stupid? No, they dont even touch the thread. Why waste the time? Just move on. I understand telling a person why an idea wont work, but to attack the perso...no one is interested.

[Dan S]

Not that I care in the slightest, but I will point out that that is silly.
Toot,

What I was trying to say is that, it depends on how the forum moderator sees things. I can illustrate this best with an example similar to something I recently read on a CNC forum.

Gentlemen A posts, asking for comments on Globalcnc (made up company name) products, because he is interested in making a purchase.

Gentlemen B, posts that Globalcnc products are crap and customer service is horrible. He went on to say that he purchased a machine, and that the quality control was horrible. He posted photos of poorly finished and broken parts.

Gentlemen C, (owner of Globalcnc) posts that gentlemen B has personally attacked him, and that his posts must should removed. He said that at the time of gentlemen B’s purchase Globalcnc was having a quality control issue and that has since been fixed. He also stated that Globalcnc offered to replace the faulty parts if gentlemen b would ship them back; but gentlemen b refused because he didn’t want to pay shipping costs.

Gentlemen B, posts a copy of the e-mail from Globalcnc customer service offering to replace the faulty parts. The e-mail insinuates that gentlemen b is not very intelligent, and that most likely he damaged the parts during assembly.



So the question you have to ask yourself is what does the moderator do?

[Dan S]

Its about professionalism. Notice how the guys with the highest rep never bash on anyone? Ever heard Tspeer tell someone thier idea was stupid? No, they dont even touch the thread. Why waste the time? Just move on. I understand telling a person why an idea wont work, but to attack the perso...no one is interested.


It all depends on the mentality of the person being attacked

[Figgy]

It all depends on the mentality of the person being attacked
And the mentality of the same three or four attackers..

[Toot]

Toot,

What I was trying to say is that, it depends on how the forum moderator sees things. I can illustrate this best with an example similar to something I recently read on a CNC forum.

Gentlemen A posts, asking for comments on Globalcnc (made up company name) products, because he is interested in making a purchase.

Gentlemen B, posts that Globalcnc products are crap and customer service is horrible. He went on to say that he purchased a machine, and that the quality control was horrible. He posted photos of poorly finished and broken parts.

Gentlemen C, (owner of Globalcnc) posts that gentlemen B has personally attacked him, and that his posts must should removed. He said that at the time of gentlemen B’s purchase Globalcnc was having a quality control issue and that has since been fixed. He also stated that Globalcnc offered to replace the faulty parts if gentlemen b would ship them back; but gentlemen b refused because he didn’t want to pay shipping costs.

Gentlemen B, posts a copy of the e-mail from Globalcnc customer service offering to replace the faulty parts. The e-mail insinuates that gentlemen b is not very intelligent, and that most likely he damaged the parts during assembly.



So the question you have to ask yourself is what does the moderator do?

So long as no names are called, you leave it as it stands and wait for a court order telling you to remove the defamatory portions of the posts.

If names are called, you warn or ban the offending parties.

If clearly fraudulent statements are made, again, you warn/ban the offending parties.


Locking a thread is generally a bad idea because it limits peoples' ability to defend themselves. HOWEVER, if things get out of control, warnings for name-calling, or bans for proven falsehoods ought to be handed out.


Just MHO.

[Dan S]

So long as no names are called, you leave it as it stands and wait for a court order telling you to remove the defamatory portions of the posts.

If names are called, you warn or ban the offending parties.

If clearly fraudulent statements are made, again, you warn/ban the offending parties.


Locking a thread is generally a bad idea because it limits peoples' ability to defend themselves. HOWEVER, if things get out of control, warnings for name-calling, or bans for proven falsehoods ought to be handed out.


Just MHO.

all verry go points that i agree with. However i'm a moderator on a different forum, and it's never as clean and simple as people thinki it should be.

[Toot]

all verry go points that i agree with. However i'm a moderator on a different forum, and it's never as clean and simple as people thinki it should be.

I know it. Moderation isn't easy. :)

And I think moderators ought to err on the side of "open dialogue" rather than heavy-handedness. I've got no complaints here.

[Frosty]

"open dialogue" I like that!! I think it reasonable to say that non of us talk on this forum in the same way as we speak in our everyday lifes, I certainly dont.

I dont see why we should be offended by mild to strong language,lets face it you would be hard pressed to go to the gas staion or the supermarket without coming accross it. You would certainly not be able to watch a movie with out hearing horrendous language.

Why is this forum to be a place that angels would come.

As for personall insults or attack I would not care if someone had a go at me. Provided that it is relative and not pointless insults aimed at my mother or method of birth. After the offenders had calmed down and re -read what they had written I think I would be the least embarrased of us both.

Here in Thailand if you raise your voice you have lost the argument.


I say "go ahead verbally attack me you will be the lesser
man, and I- the greater for it"

Water off a ducks back.

[westlawn5554X]

JacK Forst, Chuk Dee Krup.

Now, where all moderator hang around? Do they have Senior Moderator in the forum of Moderator teaching rules and regulation? It is just athought that pass my mind:)

[Poida]

1. I don't like personal attacks.
2. I think you'r all idiots.:D

[Frosty]

Poida, thats not a personall attack-- you said 'all' so its not personall is it? Im sorry but if you intend to attack people you have a lot of work to do on you insult technique.

Im not a psyciatrist but i find it very interesting . just what is a personal attack and what is its intent. As we are all on the internet and dont even know the person we attack,--- so why? It probably has more to do with relief of the attacker than actually meant as an insult to the reciever. As I have previouisly said its the attacker that has the say on what is is and what it was meant to do. The reciever could be totally unaware of its intent and purpose.

Insults by there very nature are grossly exagertated there literal content is questionable, Just what was the insult meant to do?? They are just a pointeless waste of words ,---bit like this post !!!!

The only person degraded by insults is the person that makes them.

Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself. let men hang themselves, I say, Its good enertainment. What is a forum that has no entertainment.

[Poida]

No man can be insulted without his consent.

A famous quote by a famous person, but since I am not into famous people I don't know who the hell it was.

And I am sorry Jack, I am so deficient in so many ways even personal insults.

I thought in my ignorance of course that I could mass personal insult.
Like bulk billing or insult spamming.

Maybe I'll start small and work my way up from there.

I'm an idiot!!

That's it, moderators lock this thread I've received a personal insult.

[Frosty]

[QUOTE=Poida]No man can be insulted without his consent.


Thats a good one I like that. Theres another one about intimidation!! I think it goes something like " theres no such thing as an intimidator only the intimidated"

Similar kind of thing I suppose.

Pioda Dont worry about your insults you are doing very well. It takes a lot of practise to become skilled enough to rip a man to the floor and remove his ability to speak ,leaving him with jaw wide and shocked . This takes considerable skills that can only be acheived by years of practise.

I met such a man once --infact I still know him, I still kind of mix with him socialy on acccasions, but I bo do not hang around after saying hello. A very gifted man with speech and extremely confident and over powering. Ille bet you can guess from which country this man came?

clue/ The big one on the left

[longliner45]

you must mean Canada! because we only have assholes here in America,,,,,,,,,,longliner

[Toot]

you must mean Canada! because we only have assholes here in America,,,,,,,,,,longliner

No... I think he's referring to Alaska.

[longliner45]

Toot be careful , your down to 17 points an other shot like that and who knowswhat will happen.,,,,,longliner

[Toot]

Toot be careful , your down to 17 points an other shot like that and who knowswhat will happen.,,,,,longliner

Whoa! I never noticed that before. At least I'm ahead of Westlawn.


Whoops! Was that a personal attack? :P

In all seriousness, I've gotten one negative rep hit... and that was from the Global Warming thread. nobody's complained one bit about my behavior in the "serious" threads. I know I tend to screw off a lot, but I do make a conscious effort not to be obtrusive or obnoxious about it.

[longliner45]

points,,,,smoints

[westlawn5554X]

Whoa! I never noticed that before. At least I'm ahead of Westlawn.


Whoops! Was that a personal attack? :P

In all seriousness, I've gotten one negative rep hit... and that was from the Global Warming thread. nobody's complained one bit about my behavior in the "serious" threads. I know I tend to screw off a lot, but I do make a conscious effort not to be obtrusive or obnoxious about it.

Ehmm... its 5554x not westlawn, but westlawn student. You cant be ahead of an institution He... have fun guys:P

[Toot]

Ehmm... its 5554x not westlawn, but westlawn student. You cant be ahead of an institution He... have fun guys:P

That's too hard to remember and I don't like having to stop my typing to punch in numbers. How about I just call you "Bob" instead?

[Wynand N]

I'm just curious why it appears that in some cases personal attacks are tolerated on this forum? The forum rules specifially prohibit that kind of thing.
Then you look at the "TP 52 " thread : hundreds of pages of personal attacks-why is that ok?

Mighetto

[Frosty]

[QUOTE=Toot]Whoa! I never noticed that before. At least I'm ahead of Westlawn.

Toot i just had to give you some points. yet when I clicked on I got a " you have to spread reputation around before you can give any more to toot"

Thats a new one Ive never seen that before????


Is that personal message to me or has any one else seen that massage?

[westlawn5554X]

Same thing happen. U have mave given too much point and not spread it to other member. :)

[kach22i]

How did the person who posted porn, and had only a single post get a reputation of 8?

8!

Low, but he still had just two points less than westlawn5554X.:D

Admin Answer so as not to disrupt thread: everyone starts at 10

[Doug Lord]

Check this out: post #55 "Canting Mechcanisms": Clear cut admission of the awarding of "reputation points" for wise cracks as opposed to any technical contribution to the subject matter. I'm 100% certain that these so-called "reputation points" have been awarded to the same individual for some of the direct personal attacks that form the vast majority of this individuals postings.
Renders the whole concept of "reputation points" meaningless:

Wish he was sitting about 30 miles closer to the centre of the earth than the bottom of the Marianas trench. The scientists tell us that it is so hot at that depth that the rocks even melt. Do you think that there is any way the administrator of the forum could buy him a ticket to go there?
Another gem, Dan. If there was any way the system would allow me to award you more reputation points for that posting I would, but it says I must spread them around.
Come on some-one, help me out and give Dan some reputation points for his magnificent insights. :cool:

[Dan S]

Check this out: post #55 "Canting Mechcanisms": Clear cut admission of the awarding of "reputation points" for wise cracks as opposed to any technical contribution to the subject matter. I'm 100% certain that these so-called "reputation points" have been awarded to the same individual for some of the direct personal attacks that form the vast majority of this individuals postings.
Renders the whole concept of "reputation points" meaningless:
O no Doug has attacked me, I want my mommy. LOL

Seriously Doug, if you can’t deal with the fact that a large number of the forum members think your posts are hype, BS, or ramblings, then you shouldn’t post.

[Figgy]

Doug CAN deal with it, and he deals well. Its when points are solicited that it renders the system useless.

[Dan S]

What’s the big deal with the point’s thing? Does anyone actually take it seriously, and if so why? I mean come on use your own brain to determine someone’s credibility.

[frosh]

If normal intelligent people post viewpoints that have some true factual basis, and have a degree of respect for well meant and well argued contributions posted by others, then personal attacks never would occur.
The problem really occurs when whatever is rationally argued by someone, in their contribution is consistently ignored by the person to whom it is primarily addressed to, and a narrow minded view is hammered back that is likely without any merit.
This starts after a time to become not only boring and inconsiderate to any one making a counter argument, that in a sense tempers are lost and eventually personal attacks are made in a futile (in this particular case anyway) to shut that person up. This need to shut that person up, is an attempt to avoid the degredation of the thread to the level of naughty three year children where one says : "Did so!" and the other says : "Did not!" and this continues on ad infinitum. Jesus, I just noticed that my reputation points keep going down!

[Doug Lord]

I'm making an exception here. As you know I rarely reply to your posts due to the incredible level of personal invective and almost 100% lack of relevance. In the 60'Moth thread your posts were never about the technical discussion-whether thats because of your inability to discuss the technology or not I don't know. But I do know that a small "gang"has been formed here that has set itself up as the arbiter of what should or can be discussed-particularly in any thread of which I am a part. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the absurdity of your previous post when compared against the facts or your and "Dan S"'s intervention into threads like the 60'Moth, Canting Mechanisms, Peoples Foiler and Moth on Foils.IF YOU DON"T LIKE ME OR THE SUBJECT MATTER WHY WASTE YOUR TIME ON THE THREAD? When several people act in concert to try to "shut someone else up" for whatever reason they are behaving reprehensibly and can have no defense of that kind of conduct! Who are you to make such a decision when the facts clearly show that your & your fellow gang member DanS's technical "contributions" to the above threads are nearly non-existent? How can you claim to be trying to engage in a discussion that the facts show you NEVER or rarely have? You may not agree with what I say but you have NO right to try to shut me up!!!!! And who gave you the right to tell others what they can or can't discuss??

[frosh]

Your contributions have about as much interest to most members of this forum as SPAM that we all receive (unfortunately) with increasing regularity in our email inboxes these days. We delete SPAM from our email inboxes without opening it up, and often try using filters to prevent such useless and infuriating stuff even arriving into our inbox.
In this forum it is virtually impossible to filter out the contributions of any particular poster, so that in the end we end up with requests to get intelligent or shut up. As a last resort, personal attacks hidden within witty contributions are used to discourage the SPAMMER!
Doug, that is why!

[frosh]

You are not qualified to talk on some-elses technical abilities for obvious reasons. The rest of us know what the reason is; unfortunately you do not!

[Crag Cay]

Although I have very little interest in foils or evaluating the merits of what may, or may not, revolutionise sailing in the future, I have to say that Doug is entirely justified in feeling aggrieved by these attacks on him.

I find myself avoiding these threads more because of this needless unpleasantness than any waffle from Doug, however fanciful I feel that may be. If people don't want to engage in Doug's debates, then walk away. That is the only 'right' you have on these forums. You certainly don't have the right to censure or heap ridicule on another.

[Dan S]

O How you make me laugh Doug, You try to insult someone and take the higher than thow approach in the same post, and you did a horrible good job at both.

When several people act in concert to try to "shut someone else up" for whatever reason they are behaving reprehensibly and can have no defense of that kind of conduct! Who are you to make such a decision

Welcome to the real world Doug, some people don’t like you. I know it’s hard for you to grasp this concept, but it’s a fact of life. For example Figgy doesn’t care much for me, and I’m perfectly fine with that.


You may not agree with what I say but you have NO right to try to shut me up!!!!!
Once again, you live in the real, not dougyland.


And who gave you the right to tell others what they can or can't discuss??
Source ??????????????????????????

[marshmat]

Well, this is getting interesting. Or childlike. Take your pick.
If you don't like reading something on here, the simple solution is to not read it. Reaming out someone simply for being a dreamer, is not at all tolerated in Canadian culture- are your own cultures any different, folks? How would you feel if you had a pack of vultures pounce on you every time you had a far-out idea?
Doug has posted a lot of far-out ideas, yes. Some might be workable, some might not. But he puts them up here expecting technical discussion, in the hope that by putting a lot of bright people together with a radical idea, we can end up with a workable radical idea. He's quite justified in feeling miffed by the rude and unprovoked attacks that now stalk him with every thread.
Mighetto's TP52 thread has been mentioned a few times too. Why don't we just let this thing die? IMHO, people seem to get some kind of satisfaction by continuing it; it's viewed as our humour sideshow, so to speak. Is there really any debate going on there, or do we just post in the hopes of provoking a fight?
We end up at one of those principles of the early Internet.... don't say anything in an electronic discussion that you wouldn't say in a verbal one. Are we really as rude as we often seem to be on here? I might suggest everyone take a look at their last ten posts, and see what they're like on second thought.

[Dan S]

If people don't want to engage in Doug's debates, then walk away. That is the only 'right' you have on these forums. You certainly don't have the right to censure or heap ridicule on another.
Crag, I respectfully disagree with you on this, my reasoning for this, is that Doug has a tendency to inject his opinions into every thread he can, to try and manipulate the thread into something he wants to talk about. One a forum that he is now banned from, someone would start a thread about a project they where working on, and Doug would inject that they must consider this technology or that. The thread then became a debate on the hype Doug was spewing at that point in time. As a moderator of the before mentioned forum I can tell you we lost a significant number of members, because they tired of everything being about Doug and his hype.

[Figgy]

But your not a Mod on this site, Dan. So are you trying to do everyone a favor or what?

[Dan S]

Reaming out someone simply for being a dreamer, is not at all tolerated in Canadian culture- are your own cultures any different, folks?
It might be different in other parts of the country, but when I was growing up, daydreamers where shunned. I have heard a teacher tell a student to stop daydreaming many times. Usually the comment was something that insinuates that daydreamers never accomplish anything. Coming up with an idea is not nearly as important as acting on it and making something happen.

We end up at one of those principles of the early Internet.... don't say anything in an electronic discussion that you wouldn't say in a verbal one.
I completely agree with you 100% on this.

[Dan S]

But your not a Mod on this site, Dan. So are you trying to do everyone a favor or what? I’m trying to do myself a favor.

[Doug Lord]

One last exception here. Dan, you know I don't usually respond to your posts since they are 95% personal attacks and insults.
But ,Dan, you've given yourself away by your posts in this thread, the 60' Moth, Canting Mechanisms, Moth on Foils and others.
One doesn't have to have an active imagination to see just what kind of moderator you are/were and what sense of fairness and fairplay(or lack thereof) that you bring to the job. The tactics that you and Frosh have engaged in on this forum are out in the open, Dan.....

[Vega]

Although I have very little interest in foils or evaluating the merits of what may, or may not, revolutionise sailing in the future, I have to say that Doug is entirely justified in feeling aggrieved by these attacks on him.
.
If you don't like reading something on here, the simple solution is to not read it. Reaming out someone simply for being a dreamer, is not at all tolerated in Canadian culture- are your own cultures any different, folks? ..
Doug has posted a lot of far-out ideas, yes. Some might be workable, some might not. But he puts them up here expecting technical discussion, in the hope that by putting a lot of bright people together with a radical idea, we can end up with a workable radical idea. He's quite justified in feeling miffed by the rude and unprovoked attacks that now stalk him with every thread.
....


Sorry to quote so extensively, but you guys have said it better than I am able to.

You don't have to like a guy to treat him with a fair amount of politeness.

If you don't agree, say so and explain why. If you think a guy has nothing to offer, go away from his thread.

This forum is different from all the others I have been, not only because it's more international (inter-cultural) but because people are more polite and that makes discussions a lot more productive and interesting.

Come on guys, give it a help to maintain it this way.;)

[Dan S]

One last exception here. Dan, you know I don't usually respond to your posts since they are 95% personal attacks and insults.
Doug you hurt my feelings.


One doesn't have to have an active imagination to see just what kind of moderator you are/were and what sense of fairness and fairplay(or lack thereof) that you bring to the job.
With respect to me being a moderator; I don’t really care what you think. The vast majority of the forum members are happy with how I conduct matters. I have a simple rule, if you act like a spoiled child you are going to be treated like one.

You acted like a child for well over a year, and ultimately it was not me that booted you, it was the forum administrator/owner. The moderation staff received e-mails for days afterwards thanking us for giving you the boot.

[Doug Lord]

Once you abandon the concepts of fairness and fairplay every thing else is easy......

[Figgy]

With respect to me being a moderator; I don’t really care what you think.
And we dont care what happened on another site. Why are you dragging all that bs over here? I've been banned from other sites, but you dont see mods continuing the fight anywhere else. Are you a stalker, Dan? Are you stalking Doug? Awww, how cute!

[Dan S]

Once you abandon the concepts of fairness and fairplay every thing else is easy......

Lol, whatever you say Dougy… You would know better than I.

[Dan S]

And we dont care what happened on another site. Why are you dragging all that bs over here?I was trying to make a point; I must not have done a good job.


I've been banned from other sites

Is that something you are proud of?


Are you a stalker, Dan? Are you stalking Doug? Awww, how cute!
Yea that’s it.....
Obviously you haven't read what I or anyone else that disagrees with Doug has said.

Now a question for you:

What do you care what I frosh, CT, Hough etc have to say or think about Doug? I mean as you said earlier, why not just walk away?

[hansp77]

What do you care what I frosh, CT, Hough etc have to say or think about Doug? I mean as you said earlier, why not just walk away?
[/FONT][/COLOR]

Dan,
I am going to quote Vega for this one,

This forum is different from all the others I have been, not only because it's more international (inter-cultural) but because people are more polite and that makes discussions a lot more productive and interesting.


To sink into off-hand personal insults and attacks actually endangers so much of what is good here.

I have nothing like the required technichal knowledge to deal with Dougs theories and dreams, so mostly his posts slip under my radar,
I do however appreciated that this site, unlike others, is somewhere where far-out dreams can be discussed and critiqued properly.

Personally thats great for me, because I am and forever will be a dreamer, and consider it one of the better things about the human intellect.

If your accusations are correct, then by all means, politely pick Doug up when he 'injects his opinions' into threads where they are irrelevant- but unless your posts are on point and technical, leave his threads the hell alone.

Personal attacks and insults really have no place here.
If you really have such a problem with Doug, then just ignore him.
Its that simple.

[westlawn5554X]

I think if there is a fight somewhere involved 2 parties and we have no time or space to sort out the right and wrong, why not have an option of suspension for a month after things cool down and then proceed the forum judgement? This will bring peace and quiet and sanity back to the forum members... Cheers if you understand me.

Instead of baned forever and not bane and hear the borind discussion why not just suspension for both victim and prey ALIKE?

[Figgy]

Is that something you are proud of?
What do I care? TONS of other fourms out there, no big deal to me. The owners havent kicked me tho', every time its one of the mods, flexing his "power", big deal. But this is a professional fourm, and I'm here to share and learn.
See, Dan, my problem with you is you dont bring anything to the table. Frosh and the others have decent arguments, you just talk smack in the background. Your more of a nuisance. Tell Doug why his idea wont work, dont just bash him. What happened on another fourm is of no concern to THIS fourms members.

[westlawn5554X]

I think figgy is right, why drag and drop into this forum other unconcern problem and increase the intensity of an addition burden that no one want to know anyway. Does anybody wanna share their past for a leisure option in the boat design forum?

I think sharing and learning is a better mode of the forum feature. We can built a fighting forum some where and some time... or why not just go to their home with a double barrel? I am now too off topic with the analogy?

[stevel]

I think if there is a fight somewhere involved 2 parties and we have no time or space to sort out the right and wrong, why not have an option of suspension for a month after things cool down and then proceed the forum judgement? This will bring peace and quiet and sanity back to the forum members... Cheers if you understand me.

Instead of baned forever and not bane and hear the borind discussion why not just suspension for both victim and prey ALIKE?


Anyone banned or suspended will come back using a different ISP if they want to be here.

[Dan S]

Tell Doug why his idea wont work, dont just bash him.

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=104064&postcount=2

[RHough]

I'm just curious why it appears that in some cases personal attacks are tolerated on this forum? The forum rules specifially prohibit that kind of thing.
Then you look at the "TP 52 " thread : hundreds of pages of personal attacks-why is that ok? And this weekend the 60'Moth thread was locked with the comment that the back and forth personal attacks are a waste of bandwidth. Couldn't agree more but why not delete the personal attacks instead of locking the thread?
------------------------
Boat Design Forums - FAQ: Terms of Use - Access Agreement - Forum Rules
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/faq.php?faq=terms_of_use

Hmmm....

Using the the words "absurd" or "ridiculous" might be considered an attack ...

Advanced search for posts with "absurd (http://boatdesign.net/forums/search.php?searchid=697152)" Count 108 posts

Advanced search for post with "absurd" and Doug Lord (http://boatdesign.net/forums/search.php?searchid=697170)as the poster. Count 28 posts

Doug Lord posts are 25.9% of the total posts with "absurd" ... there are over 8000 members here, yet one member is associated with more that 25% of the "absurd" posts.

Ridiculous you say? ... Well lets look at that ...

Advanced search for posts with "ridiculous (http://boatdesign.net/forums/search.php?searchid=697170)" Count 175 posts

Advanced search for posts with "ridiculous" and Doug Lord (http://boatdesign.net/forums/search.php?searchid=697172) as the poster. Count 26 posts

Doug Lord posts are only 14.8% of the total posts that contain "ridiculous".

Does it seem ironic to anyone else that one member of over 8000 should use words like absurd and ridiculous to describe other posts and then start this thread?

[Doug Lord]

Mr. Hough, you've only used the word "absurd" in 11% of the threads you've posted in and perhaps admirably, only used the word "ridiculous" in 5% of the threads where it has been used.
However, you are the all time king of the use of
"LMAO" -- which for those not yet attuned means "Laugh My Ass Off"--- using it in 57.8% of the posts where it is used on this forum. And most of time you've used it to ridicule.....
I have ,at times, described a COMMENT by an individual as absurd or ridiculous but rarely if ever have I used the terms to describe an individual. And I have NEVER used any term to ridicule fellow posters as you have (LMAO) or the kind of direct offensive personal attacks as used by "Dan S" , "Frosh" and a couple of others.

[bilgeboy]

Ridiculously absurd statistics. Very interesting, though.

Mike

[Dan S]

I have ,at times, described a COMMENT by an individual as absurd or ridiculous but rarely if ever have I used the terms to describe an individual. And I have NEVER used any term to ridicule fellow posters as you have (LMAO) or the kind of direct offensive personal attacks as used by "Dan S" , "Frosh" and a couple of others.

Cry me a river

[Vega]

Ridiculously absurd statistics. Very interesting, though.

Mike

More than interesting, very amusing:p :p :p

[timgoz]

There certainly must be a more productive use of brainpower than compiling such "statistics". That said, reading the same is not much better. Think I'll go to a thread where I can actually learn something useful and/or give assistance to another.

Can't we all just get along?

Take care.

TGoz

[westlawn5554X]

anybody want popcorn... beer... or something else? I have a soft and bouncy chair to watch all these...:)

[westlawn5554X]

After much reading and eating popcorn... I still cant point who is right or wrong... so let's kiss and makeover.

[timgoz]

What happened to the beer? Guess it is sorta early yet though.

TGoz

[RHough]

What happened to the beer? Guess it is sorta early yet though.

TGoz

Here you go ... :)

http://www.campfireusadallas.org/auction/2003/Pix/StPauliGirl.jpg

[Frosty]

I know its only a drawing but thats how they serve beer in Germany. The swiss are just as bad. They seem to be not concerned that they have just paid approximately 6 Dollars for half a glass of beer with the rest being horrible tasting foam stuff. Here in Thialand many Germans insist on this, and bang there fist on the table untill they get it. Then I turn up expecting a decent glass of beer and have to explain that Germans drink there beer like that but I dont. With an attitude to drinking like this is it no wonder they lost the war.

[bilgeboy]

You've got a point there, Welly!!

I don't know how you guys find these images, but they are great.

Mike

[bilgeboy]

I meant Westlawn, BTW.

[Vega]

I know its only a drawing but thats how they serve beer in Germany. .

I like it very much, particularly Muchen beer. There are some places there where the beer is home made in the cellar next door. I love it and I love Muchen; great city with good food and excellent beer. The brewery ambiance is not bad either:) smiling girls in traditional outfit make a positive contribution.

About the price, I don’t know where you have been, but the price is about 6 euros for one of those big cups, with a liter inside. Not expensive, taking into account the quality.

[gonzo]

Some insults are works of art. For example, the "Divine Comedy" by Dante. Others are just crude and vulgar. Should we make a difference?:confused:

[stevel]

I meant Westlawn, BTW.


On to really important things.....


After my one (and so far only) trip to the UK and Germany, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that English and Irish beer are more to my taste. 'Specially the John(?) Smith Extra Smooth served by the cheeky Irish gal at Earl's Court Tavern. 'course I'd drink most anything if she were serving it.

[Frosty]

Beer is not good, I have decided to stop drinking it, It makes you fall off your motor bike. I had only 4 bottles of Chang beer. Im not saying it was entirley the beers fault I just lost concentration at this road junction and over it went.

How I managed to lift 535 pounds out of the ditch is still a mystery,-- maybe that was the beer? Chang beer 5.3% a good drink -- hic.

I got up early this morning and fixed most of the bent bits, the burn on my leg will take a little longer.

[bilgeboy]

I've got a burn, what can you do? They last forever...you die and they keep on keepin' on.

http://xs108.xs.to/xs108/06435/burn.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs108&d=06435&f=burn.jpg)

Mine is from just reaching down into the bilge to put a rag under an oil leak and I just contacted my homemade exhaust riser. Damage done.

Beer was not to blame. I was perfectly sober...despite my nickname, I was captaining at the time, but it was the virgin run after many bilge repairs I had made, so my mind was on potential problems as well as real ones. I handed over captain's chair to my brother and indulged in some beer that the less responsible crew had been consuming. I find it to be quite comforting in such situations. Treat beer with respect, use it medicinally, and it will take care of you. Treats many illnesses.

Mike

[Frosty]

oh thats a nasty burn there ,--but it matches well with your upholstery.

[Jimbo1490]

On the burn deal: in the hours right after, chill it down with ice packs wrapped in towels until the burn feeling subsides. Protect from all sunlight until fully healed. Do not take hot sowers or baths. Seriously. Use a moisturizing cream until fully healed but be careful as most consumer brands contain some alcohol and also now 'alpha hydroxy acid' which is no good for a burn.

This last tip is really important:

Buy a bottle of vitamin E gel capsules. Twice daily, break open a capsule and apply the vitamin E oil directly to the burn area. It will heal many times faster and leave little or no scar.

All the above is only applicable to first and second degree burns. You appear to have a second degree burn.



I recovered from an auto radiator explosion with no scarring whatsoever using above regimen, after being told by doctors that I would need several skin grafts for my face and chest to heal properly

Jimbo

[grumpygrady]

. It takes a lot of practise to become skilled enough to rip a man to the floor and remove his ability to speak ,leaving him with jaw wide and shocked . This takes considerable skills that can only be acheived by years of practise.

i thought that was called Tact lol

[Frosty]

Its nearly 2 weeks now and my burn is not good. I have read very carefully what Jimbi 1490 has said . The thing is It gets wet constantly because of the climate I am in,--- I have sweat running down my leg now as I type.

I have been using Betadine ( a red stuff) and that makes it kinda ok but some times it goes all gooey and throbs,- I have to wash it and apply the Betadine again.

An assie bloke across from me said I needed Paw Paw ointment,--- Desperate I tried it, I though it was working but naa it turned int a mess.

There seems to be a big hole now where the first scab came off and I have an indentation of about 2-3 mm in to the flesh.

There are some chemists here but I doubt they will have vitemin e capsules but I will have a look -- Cheers Jimbo

[Jimbo1490]

Betadine (povidone iodine) is a disinfectant solution used to clean skin before surgery and other related tasks. A second degree burn should be well on the way to healed by now. From your description, you may have a secondary infection. Apply a cotton gauze soaked in triple antibiotic ointment to the burn area and keep it covered during the day with this gauze. The gauze may need to be changed throughout the day. You can soak a gauze with the ointment by putting a blob of the ointment in the center of the gauze and then placing the gauze in a warm oven for a few minutes. It's important to protect ANY open wound from running sweat. Sweat can carry pathogens on the surface of your skin into the wound causing infection. Burns are especially susceptible. Can you not stay home for a day or two until the wound closes? You must keep the burn out of the sun. The chemists should have the triple anitbiotic onitmnet. The vitamin E capsules will be useless until the wound closes. In your picture the wound was not open, so it has deteriorated somewhat. Be on the watch for signs of infection such as extreme redness, local swelling, extreme tenderness or red streaks radiating away from the wound. If you have any of these, then you must be prescribed a course of antibiotics by a physician in addition to the ointment soaked gauzes. I'm suprised you have not gone in to see a phyician yet. Is there none close by?

Jimbo

[Frosty]

Boy are we of the the topic or what??

The picture is not of my burn Jimbo,the picture is Bilgeboys burn. Mine is a disgusting mess and would put people off there lunch. I am at home!!! I am retired and sitting on the deck of my boat,--the sweat doesnt know that I suppose.

Physician???? well there are a few Indian quacks in town in the shopping centre. I have been to see them before but when they find out I am English they are more concerned about talking Manchester United
I am on an Island called Langkawi just off the west coast of Thailand /Malaysia. Your not supposed to be sick here its a tourist destination!!
I thank you for your input Jimbo and I will try to keep it dry. I will wander down town later and see if I can get some stuff you advise,Thank you.

Amoxacilin perhaps?? cheap broad spectrum antibiotic should be availabe,although I shall watch very carefully for red streaks.

[bilgeboy]

Sorry, Jack. I didn't realize it was so bad when I was joking around. Well, you did too, and yes, that is the couch that I am sitting on presently. The Admiral's choice, but quite comfortable, thank you.

Jimbo clearly has some good advice, the best being that you be seen by a physician.

I will humbly offer a few more thoughts, as I would treat the wound a bit differently.

I wouldn't put anything IN the wound (ointments, salves, vitamins, etc). Twice daily dressing changes, and here's how I would do it. Soak sterile dressings in saline solution, squeeze out, and pack in the defect in your skin. The wet dressings have to be the appropriate size to fill the defect in skin, but not contact healthy skin. Wrap that with dry dressings. Keep the dry...well, dry.

You should start a course of oral antibiotics for sure, I would say Keflex (Cephalexin...it has a few different marketed names). You can't buy this stuff "over the counter" here in the US, but you probably can in Thailand. Its an excellent antibiotic to kill the bacteria that live on the skin, and I guarantee that a wound that is pussing out as you describe is filled with them.

If there is dead tissue in there, nothing will prevent the bacteria from feasting. I think a physician could quickly determine if there is dead tissue or not. You can, too, but you will be less likely to perform an adequate debridement of dead/burned tissue than a physician. Its not you...its just human nature not to take a knife to your own leg. The dressing regimen will help this, though.

The idea behind this kind of dressing is that the moist dressings kind of sticks to tissue in the wound a bit, and as you remove the old dressing, it debrides the wound for you. Healthy tissue will not come off with the dressing changes, but the dead tissue and bugs will. The wound will infiltrate with white blood cells ( it clearly already has), and they can manage the rest. Some docs still use weak solution of iodine in wounds, but this has been shown to slow healing. Bad for bacteria, but bad for your cells, too.

Gradually, the defect heals, and you will know when you can stop the wet, and just keep dry. And no, I didn't make this up. Its pretty much the standard of care in the US.

Keep us filled in, and if you don't mind posting a pic of the injury, I am curious.

If you do see a doctor, it will prevent us from having a public discussion about diabetes in your family, etc, etc, etc..

Good Luck,

Mike

[bilgeboy]

It took me so long to type that, you already replied and I missed it. Now I got the big picture.

Keflex. Amoxacillin is ok, but almost too broad, and at least send me a picture to my email.

Mike

[Frosty]

I havent got a digital camera yet. I should have as this island is also duty free ( you wouldnt believe how cheap the beer is).

Any way I have Betadine, Some antiseptic ointment, and lots and lots of sea water. It maybe a stupid question after all of your input Jimbo and Bilgboy but its times like these that I just dive into the sea and clean the props for an hour or two . It works wonders on cuts and abrassions.

Would it not get all the gungey stuff off and clean it up? It seems a silly question when you have spent a while typing dont get it wet. But what do you think?

[westlawn5554X]

biopaceaton... is that the rghit seplling fro hte medicine?... wrok evrythetime

[hansp77]

Jack,

Paw Paw ointment???

Bloody stupid Aussie.

I swear that stuff is the hippie-cure-it-all-snake-oil-rub of gullible Australians.
It is nothing but a few milligrams of fermented paw paw mixed into a tub of vaseline. For some reason they have avoided putting this on the lable, and accordingly most users don't know this (my dads a cosmetic Pharmacist).

I don't mean to be alarmist,
but seriously
if it is red, inflamed, aching and not healing,
GET YOURSELF SOME SERIOUS ANTIBIOTICS IMMEDIATLY.

I have two very good freinds who got measly little scratches on their legs in Thailand, as it happended in exactly the same spot- in the middle of their shin-bone, one six years ago, and one about a month ago. Through absent mindedness, they both let the wounds get infected.
BOTH OF THEM ALMOST LOST THEIR LEGS.

The guy from six years ago had to get a skin graft from his ass nearly the size of his palm (it took almost a year to heal- and still doesn't look good- and for months looked like the graft was going to fall off), while the one a few weeks ago simply had to spend two weeks of his one month holiday in agony in a thai hospital contemplating a one-legged life. He still has a big gory hole in his leg- but luckily no need for a graft.

I don't know what it is about Thailand (other than the heat, humidity and lovely array of germs) but infections there are not a good thing.

The pharmacueticals in thailand are simply excellent, and cheap- best place to stock up for a travellers medi-kit.
Get yourself down to doctors, or at the very least a pharmacy (unless you are on a tiny island they should have one) and get some oral superstrength antibiotics, combined with some superstrength antibiotic cream.

I don't think betadine is going to cut it.

Seriously.

Hans.

[Frosty]

Wow thanks guys for all your help and concern. I havnt done any thing much today but type on the forum ,--Oh you've noticed that,--- and its looking pretty good, Err the burn not the forum,-- its sort of tightend up accross the skin and has scabbed in the middle where the skin came off.
Its not throbbing much and its not sore, no redness or weeping. I put betadine on it 5 hours ago and its dried out.
I shall have a few cans of pain killer this evening and the next door nieghbour has put some petrol in the chain saw( just in case). I have given the assie bloke the paw paw cream back.

I cant do a course of anti biotics just yet because there is a party at the club tonight with free food.

Thanks

[hansp77]

Good luck with that,
the signs are looking better,
but really keep an eye on it.

At home, I am not usually the sort to even put a band-aid on a deep through-the-flesh wound.
Ah, bit of dirt in the wound- just nutrition I say.

But last year when I was over there, and went through Laos and Cambodia, with the memory of the skin-graft still fresh, I was like a hypochondriac grandma every time I got a scratch.:D
Well not exactly, but I did use antiseptic on my motorbike wounds.

Have a good party.

[Ari]

Jack,
Try this hyperlink for a clinic close to you in Langkawi.You should try Kirin beer Jack..my friend will swear to anything if you can believe him ..that Kirin is the best.And the big container is real nice.
http://www.eguide.com.my/products_services.asp?class_id=1210&state_no=14&substate_no=39

[Frosty]

Ahh clinic Waffa, he's the manchester united fan.

Thaks Ari but if it all goes wrong I will jump on the ferry to Alostar medical centre, Superb I am told.

[Ari]

Ahh clinic Waffa, he's the manchester united fan.

Thaks Ari but if it all goes wrong I will jump on the ferry to Alostar medical centre, Superb I am told.

There is a specialist hospital in Bandar Darulaman Jitra.One of the best in the northern region of this Peninsular.Alor star general hospital is good but normally pack.They only charge RM 2 for a citizen and about RM 5 for non citizen registration.The medical fee will be lots cheaper compared to your ferry fare from Langkawi to Kuala Kedah or Kuala Perlis.There is also private clinics in Kangar town(capital of Perlis). You are about 45 minutes boat ride to Kuala Perlis and other 15 minutes taxi ride to Kangar,or one hour boat ride to Kuala Kedah and another 20 minutes by taxi to Alor Setar (capital of Kedah state).

[longliner45]

jack hope your alright ,,burns are really painfull,,had my share,, keep an eye on it and watch for a red streak ,,be good,,,,longliner