Cockpit Design--why get wet?

[Finlander]

Coming from a pilothouse motorsailing perspective, one thing I'll never understand about pure sailboats is why they leave the helmsman exposed to all elements. So, how about the following design for a standard aft cockpit sailboat?

A sleek hard-dodger that extends over the cockpit seats by at least 1-meter. Sides are covered, but the dodger's roof is cut-out to match a centered companionway hatch, so headroom isn't compromised when entering or exiting the companionway. Perhaps a sliding plexiglass hatch could be used there--aligned with the companionway's sliding hatch.

The helmsman can sit with his shoulder against the cabin bulkhead, near the companionway hatch and underneath the hard-dodger's roof.

Steering would be an almost standard arrangement: A tiller arcs upward from the cockpit floor and ends less than two-feet from the companionway hatch. That way it's always within easy reach of the helmsman. Also, since it arcs upward from the floor, crew members can easily step over & around it from behind.

The reason for using a tiller, instead of wheel, is to save space and allow steering from a forward position. For optimal placement within the cockpit, the tiller might not match perfectly with the rudder's axle; in that case, I propose that a mechanical connection (with gearing for optimal leverage) should be considered.

Naturally, the tiller should have a locking feature or be attached to an autopilot.

Wouldn't this be much better than sitting at the back-end of an exposed cockpit, getting rained-upon and taking waves at full-force?

[tmark]

Wouldn't this be much better than sitting at the back-end of an exposed cockpit, getting rained-upon and taking waves at full-force?

Yup and nope ... it's nice not to get rained on, but it's also nice to see the sails which would be difficult under a dodger, inspite of having a 'sunroof' ... having a tiller bisect the cockpit could interfere with crew movement, and play havoc on boats with mid-pit travellers ... it certainly has legitmacy for long-range sailing with little crew movement and long reaches but otherwise .... it doesn't apply to day sailors and club racers which represent, at least in our part of the world, the majority of sailors ... besides how are we to achieve that early onset skin-cancer?

[Finlander]

Thanks for your thoughts and, heh, point taken about the skin cancer :D

We have lots of racers here too. I wouldn't suggest that this is suited for them. But for long-distance it would provide a warm and dry watch position, especially if some canvas were spread across the back.

Also, for day-long, rainy navigations through busy straights and such, it would be possible to steer while under cover. Plus, all instruments would be mounted on the cabin-top or under the dodger roof, within reach.

I once had a San Juan 26 with tiller that bisected the cockpit horizontally from top-of-transom. It was very inconvenient. But, since then, I've sailed on some boats where the tiller starts from the cockpit floor and arcs upward. What a huge difference space-wise, since one can actually stand-over the tiller. If it's not too long, then it provides much more space savings than a wheel.

For my proposed design, the tiller would probably be mounted somewhere near middle of the cockpit. That would leave the area behind and overtop of the tiller free for movement. In addition, the tiller could be tilted upward a bit, so one could stand within---and even lean against---the dodger's companionway cutout and see overtop the roof. The cutout should be wide enought to allow another crew member to pass by the helmsman.

But again, it's not for racers...unless maybe they're racing long passages. Otherwise, it's for practical, cruising-oriented sailors who don't like getting wet or having skin cancer :cool: .

[Eric Sponberg]

Finlander,

My Globetrotter 45 design has an extended pilothouse as you suggest--the sides and top extend over the front of the cockpit so that you can sit in the shelter of the pilothouse shell. The entire cockpit can be enclosed with a dodger, bimini top and side and back curtains. I incorporated wheel steering in the design, along with an autopilot (can also have windvane steering) so that you don't have to sit at the wheel to steer. Such devices are very reliable. I post some pictures, some of which have appeared before on this Forum. For a complete description of the design, you can see it on my website at: http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/Globetrotter45.htm.

Eric

[Tanton Yachts]

For rain or shine, a covered and protected cockpit is important. It adds enormously to the comfort. And is advantageous in lengthening the sailing season. A solid dodger, and in this case (TYD#965) a vertical mounted tiller right behind the companionway was the answer in this relatively simple boat designed for a couple with extended cruising experience. The boat is spending most of the time in the Pacific. Where it becomes very important to be fully protected from the sun.

[Finlander]

A solid dodger, and in this case (TYD#965) a vertical mounted tiller right behind the companionway was the answer in this relatively simple boat designed for a couple with extended cruising experience.

Wow! A vertically mounted tiller. Do tell!

It obviously has some type of mechanical linkage with the rudder. Cables and pulleys? Hydraulics?

Do you have standard longitudinal cockpit seats, with vertical tiller between them? And please describe the mounting. By vertical, I understand it functions like a big joy-stick or upsidedown pendulum---push it right, the boat goes left and visa versa. Same steering action as a regular tiller. Is that right?

In any case, I'm looking at alternatives to a regular steering wheel. It takes too much space and can't easily be mounted forward---like against the cabin bulkhead---without changing the whole interior layout. That is, the whole passthrough gets lost.

Plus, I always tended to rely on an autopilot. A windvane is planned for the next boat. I still want to be able to steer under-cover, against the cabin when in high-traffic zones though. Does your design have a locking feature, so it's not necessary to always hold it---for example, for a quick trip to the back of the cockpit?

Also, why did you opt to leave the dodger's sides open (ala Amel Maramu (http://www.amel-maramu.de/))? Doesn't it detract from dryness?

I know. It's for aerodynamics on a reach. I'm exploring the idea of using removable Plexiglas panels for the same reason---take them out for performance; put them back in for shielding comfort.

Thanks for posting!

Kristian

[Mychael]

I am primarily a day/overnight sailor, plus Australia is not noted for it's severe frosts, snow , ice etc. So an open cockpit works for me.
The biggest thing (for me) though is I enjoy being out in the elements, seeing stars on a night sail, feeling the wind etc .etc. It's the same reason I drive my 1958 sportscar all year round with only aeroscreens fitted.

Mychael

[ChrisF]

For getting the helmsman forward under the dodger, nothing could be simpler: just steer with the pushbuttons on the autopilot's remote. Better yet, just let the autopilot steer. Why get wet, and why do all that work pulling on a tiller? Better yet again, stay ashore, warm and dry and within reach of all mod cons, and sail the boat by remote control. Why get wet, and why be the least bit uncomfortable? Oh, but wait a moment...what do we have this boat for, again? ;)

[Finlander]

For getting the helmsman forward under the dodger, nothing could be simpler: just steer with the pushbuttons on the autopilot's remote.

True. I've always used an autopilot. But, with a normal cockpit design, one must jump around/behind the wheel each time there's a little steering emergency. In my humble opinion, a wheel takes-up way too much space considering the small amount of time it's used. Otherwise, an autopilot/windvane is fine, in principle.

Better yet again, stay ashore, warm and dry and within reach of all mod cons, and sail the boat by remote control. Why get wet, and why be the least bit uncomfortable? Oh, but wait a moment...what do we have this boat for, again? ;)

From the perspective of someone who sits in an office all week, I can relate to the need for 'getting outside and braving the elements.' But, I spent my college years---about 10-years--- working for a home builder. Much of my time was spent outdoors, under the hot sun. Then there was the beach house... And I've always enjoyed long (recumbent) bicycle tours under the hot sun.

It was all nice, but, truthfully, I've had enough sun-exposure to last a lifetime. Anything further is just plain risky.

I'd like to undertake longer passages. Aside from concerns about the sun, there's nothing worse than getting wet from cold rain and then dealing with near-pneumonia until next landfall. I've been there before. Luckily, I was crewing for someone else and could go down-below and rest. But, when sailing passages shorthanded, I see no advantage in undertaking additional risk.

I don't need things like AC or even automatic flushing toilets. But, if I can get all my steering and sail-handling under a little roof, I'll be a happy sailor ;)

[mattotoole]

After spending the last 7 summers on a center cockpit boat with a canvas cockpit cover, I'm convinced it's the only way to do things (at least for a boat that size, 50'). The big bonus is that the cockpit becomes another interior "room", with a view, like a solarium or a screen porch. With a full cockpit cover there's no reason to waste interior space on a second, inside steering station. Hard dodgers are great but most are really ugly.

[mattotoole]

For getting the helmsman forward under the dodger, nothing could be simpler: just steer with the pushbuttons on the autopilot's remote. Better yet, just let the autopilot steer.

Why not put the wheel on the bulkhead? It works great for us. If only designers weren't so bound by tradition, and symmetry fetishes...

[safewalrus]

As can be seen most of the 'sailors' in the world get their rocks off by being out in the storm as it were! They'll never agree to anything BUT an open cockpit so why bother!!

For the rest of us who like a little comfort with our sailing or who live onboard and find the extra 'room' useful, why not! and for backup look ar all the late 19th Century early 20th Century sail trading vessels and quite a few of them have wheelhouses or 'glass oilskins', but I'm not sure about the tiller in the middle of the floor idea?:P

[Finlander]

After spending the last 7 summers on a center cockpit boat with a canvas cockpit cover, I'm convinced it's the only way to do things (at least for a boat that size, 50'). The big bonus is that the cockpit becomes another interior "room", with a view, like a solarium or a screen porch. With a full cockpit cover there's no reason to waste interior space on a second, inside steering station. Hard dodgers are great but most are really ugly.

I like the interior room effect too. But, I wouldn't trust a big canvas enclosure in a big storm---a single wave would send it over the side and perhaps injure you in the process. Of course, you could dismantle the whole thing if weather gets really bad, but then you've got no shelter. They're fine for coastal/bay sailing though.

I like the idea of hard-dodger front-half with canvas back-half. IMO, the Amel Maramu (http://fastnet-yachts.com/go.pl?id=32626.htm) has a great looking dodger. It also has bulkhead steering.

My last boat had bulkhead steering. It's a great way to go. Only problem is, that, if you have a <40-footer and you want a raised cockpit floor, then a full-height (stand-under) dodger might be too high for your tastes. So, then, a sleeker (sit-under) dodger might be better, but bulkhead steering becomes more difficult to justify because you can't stand-up---it might work as a secondary steering position though.

That's why I proposed the design in my original post about having a dodger with cut-out to match a (centered) companionway. One could stand in that space and look over the dodger's roof. It would also work with a (centered ) pedestal wheel I suppose, but a tiller would probably be better in keeping the hatch area from feeling restricted.

BTW, a nice advantage to that design is that the companionway can be centered. It's probably safest that way, especially on a smaller boat.

I agree with your comment about how the industry is fixated on 'standard' solutions. It must be influenced by the racing segment....or maybe it's just what people expect, so builders acquiesce. In any case, I read and hear lots of comments about how people want alternatives.

[Finlander]

As can be seen most of the 'sailors' in the world get their rocks off by being out in the storm as it were! They'll never agree to anything BUT an open cockpit so why bother!!

Walrus, I hope you're wrong :)

...ook ar all the late 19th Century early 20th Century sail trading vessels and quite a few of them have wheelhouses or 'glass oilskins'...

I know, we've got a whole harbor full of restoreds and replicas. There's a whole pier dedicated to them. We even have homeless drunks sleeping on the docks, next to the boats---wearing black pelt-coats no less :P

It's like stepping into the 1700's and 1800's. Beautiful!

..but I'm not sure about the tiller in the middle of the floor idea?

Me neither. Here's an alternative you've probably already seen. It's a smaller boat than I envision, but it has a completely uncluttered cockpit---which I really like. Just hook-up the self-steering gear and hide under a dodger.

http://www.vander-bend.com/norsea/57494_11.jpg
http://www.vander-bend.com/norsea/

I'd probably still want to steer from underneath the dodger though---and it should be a better-covering dodger than that shown. A push-button remote (autopilot) is ok for steering, but it diverts from the KISS principle a bit. Also, it's not great in stormy weather, when adverse conditions could cause a gybe or broach. Direct corrective action via manual steering would be better. Maybe some type of linkage with ropes and pulleys would work.....

[ChrisF]

Well, obviously (I hope), I was just getting the needle in a little bit, for fun. And maybe reacting to that "other" comfort thread a bit. ;) My singlehanded and shorthanded passagemaking has mostly been done with an autopilot, and very grateful I was, too, as I sheltered under my (canvas) dodger. And I too am plenty old enough to be concerned about sun exposure and to think more of my creature comforts than I did, say, forty :!: years ago.

But I do think it's worthwhile to consider a continuum, on one end of which is sailing say a Laser or Hobie (leaving foilers and maxi cats aside only because I've never sailed one), and the other end is staying ashore. To me, the Laser end isn't about "braving" anything, or being hairy-chested in any way, it's about the exhilaration of sailing fast, the pleasure of using your body well, and the many satisfactions of being out in nature, where we originally evolved to be, after all. I do think the discomforts are the reverse of these delights, and you're fooling yourself if you think you can diminish the one without diminishing the other. Which is all right, only you want to be aware of where along that continuum you want to be. :)

[Wilma Ham]

Kristian, I followed you to this thread, thanks for the direction. I agree with your approach why getting wet? There is a difference between day sailing, racing and going long distances when you have to go on and cannot stop, sit there and actually not steering much either. Having a choice then to stay out of the weather is a great one and adding to less fatigue and adding to the fun of doing watches day after day.
Great to have a look at how the space in the cockpit is being used and by whom and make it a comfortable place to sit and move around in. All adding to the pleasure of watch keeping and having company.
I try to get my head around all the suggestions and a vertical mounted tiller sounds great, as the vertical space is less crowded than the horizontal one.
I am definitely interested too in the vertical mounted tiller.

[Torvie]

I think there are some obvious solutions, at least for smaller yachts. Unless the cockpit is huge, it is practical on boats at least up to 35 feet (and perhaps a bit more) to have a tiller mounted close to the floor at the rear of the cockpit and curving upwards. This takes up no more room than a wheel (less so in some cases) and allows the helmsman to sit forward behind the cabin (in the shelter of the dodger if one is fitted). Fitting a tiller extension makes this very easy and also allows the helmsman to get well to windward when required too. He or she can move so as to be as protected or as exposed as they wish. As a bonus, at anchor the tiller can be lifted up and the whole cockpit space used. There are potential issues with some mid cockpit traveller layouts, but they are not insurmountable with good design. When racing, we have all learnt to step around/over a tiller - again, if well designed it is no more obstructive than a large wheel, provides better feel/response, weighs less and has far less to go wrong (but perhaps not as sexy and harder to sell...). Oh, and cheaper too.

I have sailed on numerous boats with various versions of this design and can't understand the fetish that designers seem to have with putting wheel steering onto small yachts. Sometimes I feel that "progress" doesn't necessarily equate with improvement.

[Finlander]

Wilma---

Welcome! Your previous thread (http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13345) got me thinking about how to maximize interior space so that an island berth can fit into a 40-footer with a sheltered steering position. One solution is to have a flush-deck design with cockpit seats that are level to- or near-level with- the deck. That'll give you tons of room down there.

BTW, a flush-deck/high-cockpit design works well with a deck saloon. You'll have less steps to the cockpit and more space for fuel tankage underneath.

But, the higher cockpit might preclude a full-height pilothouse, so a 'chopped', sit-under dodger might work best. It'll need a cut-out down the middle though; otherwise you'll always have to crouch when entering the companionway. The center cut-out could probably be fitted with a sliding Plexiglas hatch so you can be completely sheltered for those many hours underway---you can recline in there and read a book without interference from wind and water. The covered area should be big enough so that one can sleep while the other is on-watch.

And yes, IMO (and as Torvie also mentions), a tiller is probably the most space-saving and cost-effective steering mechanism. It's one of those things that's been overlooked lately. But when you consider how little time you'll spend actively steering, it's just as well you save the space. Plus, when it actually is necessary to steer, I find that turning a wheel back-and-forth---with each passing wave---gets tedious; a tiller just takes a flick-of-the-wrist. It needs a locking (and maybe even a dampening) mechanism though, otherwise it'll be a hassle.

Something to talk with your designer about....


All the best,
Kristian

[Wilma Ham]

Your ideas are getting very exciting because John and I have been thinking about flush deck solutions for the very same reason to save space underneath, forget a cockpit, but having a sheltered area such as you described with a tiller for the rare occassion when you steer is certainly worth considering.
Thanks Kristian.

[jbassion]

I was thinking about a hard dogger sim. to the one you have drawn on the 45 on my 38' Benny, but I have been reluctant to do so because of the height that it would have to be. If you look at the stern drawing of your design the reality is that if you step up to the door you will have to crawl thru it on your knees. The dogger needs to be about 6'-6" from the step-up from the cock pit,( or the bottom of the hatch). That will put the top of the dogger about 4'-0" above the top deck. I am worried that it will look very out of place and "stuck on".

[Eric Sponberg]

I was thinking about a hard dogger sim. to the one you have drawn on the 45 on my 38' Benny, but I have been reluctant to do so because of the height that it would have to be. If you look at the stern drawing of your design the reality is that if you step up to the door you will have to crawl thru it on your knees. The dogger needs to be about 6'-6" from the step-up from the cock pit,( or the bottom of the hatch). That will put the top of the dogger about 4'-0" above the top deck. I am worried that it will look very out of place and "stuck on".

You do not have to go through the hatch on the Globetrotter 45 on your knees, but you cannot go through standing up either. I would put my first leg through, then head and shoulders, then the other leg--a bit of a stoop but not a bad move. On your 38, however, the situation would be worse because you have to design to the size of a human--more or less fixed size--for a smaller boat. Therefore, the size of the hard dodger in comparison to the rest of the hull will be proportionally larger. This is why it is so much easier to add pilot houses to larger yachts than to smaller ones.

In general, you would like the top of the hard dodger to be at about chin level while standing behind it in the cockpit so that you can hold onto the after lip and look forward clearly over the top. That is your height limit. If that gives you sufficient room to stoop through the main companionway hatch, then fine, the hard dodger will work pretty well. If it does not give you enough room to get through, then the hard dodger probably is not an option.

Also, a lot of boats have canvas dodgers over the main companionway--do you have one, or have you seen other 38's with one? A hard dodger should be similar in size and shape to a canvas dodger. That should give you some additional guidance.

I hope that helps.

Eric

[Tanton Yachts]

Danny Greene's idea on " Brazen" 34'. Permanent dodger covering the bridge deck, 4.5' wide and 4 feet long, with 4.5' of headroom. It rests on high angled cockpit coamings that act as backrest for comfortable seating. Eat, sleep, spend watches, living on deck adds much useful space on a liveaboard boat.

[Finlander]

If that gives you sufficient room to stoop through the main companionway hatch, then fine, the hard dodger will work pretty well. If it does not give you enough room to get through, then the hard dodger probably is not an option.

Why wouldn't you build a sliding hatch into the hard dodger?

It could be aligned with the companionway hatch, so stooping wouldn't be necessary.

By the way, such an idea might also work for that nicely designed 'overhang' on the Globetrotter. Wouldn't it reduce the amount of stooping?

[Crag Cay]

You could add a sliding hatch if you felt the extra effort to engineer and construct it was worthwhile. But the point is; millions of people sail quite happily with canvas dodgers (pram hoods) but some have found that having essentially the same things built in frp or aluminium has a number of added benefits.

There is, of course, the same slight stoop as you go below, but nothing that is noticeable after a couple of hours. But with a solid dodger you have something to brace yourself against, complete confidence in its stability in any weather, real glass screens with windscreen wipers if you should wish, a convenient place to lash the boom in storms, etc.

My only comment, if you should be translating a canvas dodger to solid, is be careful of 'knuckle clearance' on cabin top mounted winches, even allowing for the extra thickness of a solid structure. Whilst it's no problem to 'clip' your knuckles against the fabric of a canvas dodger, it just plain hurts to do so with a solid one! It's also surprising how many canvas ones need you to not only clip the canvas but displace it an inch or more in order to completely swing a handle.

Finally, you will probably have to put a couple of 10x10 hatches in the roof for ventilation as you can't fold the solid version forward on hot days.

[Finlander]

You could add a sliding hatch if you felt the extra effort to engineer and construct it was worthwhile. But the point is; millions of people sail quite happily with canvas dodgers...
I'm not trying to convince people that they need rooves over their heads. And, I realize that many are perfectly happy, soaking in the rain, behind canvas dodgers that barely extend beyond the cabin-top. Or no dodger at all, for that matter. That's fine for them; but not for me :)

With that said, I suppose a canvas dodger could extend back-and-over the cockpit seats, by about 1-meter....

But, then, there'd be no standing headroom for roughly half the cockpit's length. So, to avoid developing a curved spine, it would need a center cut-out. Plus, to see the sails, the canvas dodger's roof would need to be made of clear plastic.... To me, none of this seems sturdy or practical enough.

Therefore, I suspect that a hard-dodger would contribute more to a structurally sound cut-out, and sturdy Plexiglas panels could be used in the roof area. If you're going to build a hard-dodger in the first place, then I don't think that adding a hatchway and some Plexiglas would take any major effort or cost.

...with a solid dodger you have something to brace yourself against
Good point. I figure, the helmsman should be able to brace himself inside the cut-out and look over the roof. When the wind gives him a headache, he should be able to sit-down, within the protective confines of the dodger, and continue to steer.

And if it rains hard, he could pull the cut-out's hatch closed to be completely shielded.

[Wilma Ham]

We know of a German boat which had a large open sliding hatch in the roof of a closed in cockpit that would allow the person to stand up to get a sense of whatever outside world he/she needed to get a sense of and that worked really well. It allowed you to do all the things that were mentioned, see the sails, the weather, give ventilation and air whenever wanted and it worked a treat.
Kristian, if I understand it well, you are looking for a solution to have an outside well sheltered steering and sail handling area that is not as deep as a 'normal' standard cockpit to save space inside the boat. Do you see this area as a second steering and sail handling station and is there another major 'work' station inside the for example raised deck saloon? What I noticed is that people even when they have a good sized pilot house they still sacrifice space to a full sized and fully equiped cockpit and that could be a waste of space.
Would you also consider having an opening roof in a deck saloon and totally do away with the cockpit idea and just have a flush deck? Why even have a less deep cockpit?

[jbassion]

So far I see the best solution is a hard dogger the same height as a conventional canvas dogger, with a sliding hatch. How about bottom / front forward opening windows? What about making the top out of dark bronze lexon? Mounting lights to light up the cockpit? I draw the line at adding a set of rocket launchers for thr fishing poles!!

[Finlander]

Wilma---Great points. In the past, I've drawn, erased and re-drawn all of them for myself. Here are my opinions....

We know of a German boat which had a large open sliding hatch in the roof...
Very common here too. At 60-degrees latitude, most exposed-cockpit boats get dry-docked in late September. Only covered-cockpit boats stay in service. Hence, lots of innovative ideas emerge.

Kristian, if I understand it well, you are looking for a solution to have an outside well sheltered steering and sail handling area that is not as deep as a 'normal' standard cockpit to save space inside the boat.
Yes, exactly that! There are plenty of designs with high cockpits, but few solutions for covering them.

Such a solution should work on smaller boats too---like 23- or 24-footers even.

Do you see this area as a second steering and sail handling station and is there another major 'work' station inside the for example raised deck saloon?
In my case, I see the cockpit as the primary station. Sail handling would be impractical from inside a deck saloon---a loose line might yank a family pet out the hatchway :P

At most, I might have an autopilot and engine controls on the inside. At the very most, a steering wheel for emergency maneuvers.

What I noticed is that people even when they have a good sized pilot house they still sacrifice space to a full sized and fully equiped cockpit and that could be a waste of space.
That's very true. Some people like to step from wheelhouse to cockpit like stepping onto a patio. It's kind of a nice feature, but I prefer to maximize interior space.

Would you also consider having an opening roof in a deck saloon and totally do away with the cockpit idea
Interesting point. An open deck saloon roof would be too dangerous, so I assume you mean lots of transparent materiial above, for viewing sails. Here're my thoughts...

low-profile deck saloon
In my case, I would prefer a low-profile deck saloon---roughly 30-cm above the flush deck. That would enable viewing in all directions--including forward. But one would need to stand-up for the view. It would not be used for sailing the vessel, aside from small adjustments via the autopilot. It would have a large galley and full nav station, which would convert to a work office in port. Forward would be settees on either side---probably a U-settee on one side.

high-profile deck saloon
Conversely, a higher-profile deck saloon would be needed to fully operate a vessel---at least roughly 60-cm above the flush deck. Normally, this design has settees mounted on platforms and necessitates lots of climbing, from level-to-level, with the vessel---every time you take a step, it's either up-or-down. It also limits usable space within the saloon. Not my favorite thing, but some people are willing to compromise in exchange for looking outside while sitting.

and just have a flush deck? Why even have a less deep cockpit?
flush deck instead of cockpit
Our previous Nauticats had this arrangement. But, consider that a chopped dodger would need to be roughly 150-cm above the flush deck height---in my opinion, it's too high for aesthetics. Even a shallow cockpit of 40-cm would help a great deal in lowering the profile. You can model it using a chair and tape measure to see what I mean.

In your case, considering a 40-footer...

center cockpit
I would say that a shallow cockpit floor of roughly 120-cm in length *might* give you an aft cabin capable of housing an island berth; that is, without compromising forward compartments too much.

You'd be helped a great deal by not losing headroom to the cockpit seats (since you'd be sitting on (or just below) the flush deck level).

aft cockpit
Another interesting, albeit shaky, alternative (shaky because I've never seen it before) is to put an island berth directly underneath the aft cockpit's floor, so the bed's foot is right behind the companionway steps. It'd be an open-interior design if you leave-out the bulkhead (maybe use thick curtains instead?). You'd need to find a place for the engine though, but the cockpit could be rather large---and with ample drainage to the rear. Just an idea...

Regards,
Kristian

[Finlander]

Ok, here's a suggestion on the topic of having a chopped-height (sit-under) hard-dodger that covers part of a cockpit. Again, it would necessitate a full-length cut-out, through the center (slightly wider than the cockpit's floor) to provide enough headroom for standing-up and to facilitate entering/exiting the cabin. To provide shelter from bad weather, the cut-out could then be closed, via a full-length roof-hatch---albeit temporarily compromising some headroom in exchange for shelter. Here's the idea:

Why not use canvas for the hard-dodger's full-length roof-hatch?

That way, the cockpit could be opened by sliding the canvas forward, like compressing an accordion. Some aluminum or fiberglass frames could be sewn-in to maintain an arched shape for maximum headroom when it's pulled shut. Also, clear plastic 'windows' would be sewn-in for viewing the sails.

Could such a canvas roof be designed to survive really heavy weather?

[jbassion]

The first is a dogger that is supposed to keep the salon dry when you want the companion way open (summer rain). The second is a hard cover for the helmsman. A single cover can only be accomplished in a traditional sailboat if you do what my friend from Newzeland did. Move the pedistal forward to the companionway. He did this for a single handed trip from Florida back to Newzeland. If you want a hard cover over a tradional wheel or tiller location it can be accomplisned by intergrating a radar support with a clear lexon roof. Clear, so you can see the sails at night. Drop down side curtains would be an easy addition. The hard dogger is only do-able if you have a sliding hatch, but the hatch should be as wide as the companionway. You still need the room to take the big stuff in and out of the boat for repairs. I am going to start designing the hard dogger for my 38' Bene.

[Guillermo]

Well, I love this one. ;)
The only extra feature I think Banjers need, to be able to watch sails when steering from the inside of the pilothouse, as well as see the stars, better feel the breeze and so on, is a decently sized transparent sliding roof opening, with an screen for when the sun hits. And you always can tiller steer from the cockpit, too. And I love the wheelhouse-cockpit 'patio' arrangement.

[Finlander]

A single cover can only be accomplished in a traditional sailboat if you do what my friend from Newzeland did. Move the pedistal forward to the companionway.

I've thought about that, but the cockpit floor would need to be wide enough to bypass the wheel---or there'd need to be enough headroom to climb around it. If it works, it'd be a great solution for shorthanded sailing, since all sheets would be behind the wheel instead of in-front of it.

With a cockpit like yours, if I understood your previous post correctly, there is a seat to climb-onto as you enter the hatchway. I know of a similar boat here that has handles on the cabin-roof, on either side of the hatch. That way, it's not so hard on the back when standing on that seat and ducking under the dodger.

Also, I think your other post stated that you'd need a dodger that's 4' above cabin-height for 6'6" standing headroom to enter the hatchway; I agree with you that it'd be too high. I'd go for something like a two-foot dodger and about 4'6" headroom---of course, a cut-out would facilitate entering/exiting even more. And the cut-out probably wouldn't need to extend as far forward as the cabin's hatch; in fact, even when the cut-out is closed (like when raining hard), it would probably still give you enough headroom to maneuver in-and-out. The ducking might be a small compromise for staying dry in stormy weather :)

[Wilma Ham]

HI Kristian, thanks for all your answers. If sliding hatches can be made not to leak, I would love them as they provide more access to fresh air and views when weather permits it and they allow extra head room when wanted.
I also like hard dodgers for the extra support they give me, I seem to always cling on to them when they are on a boat and I like the use of clear see through material wherever possible to allow a view.
I laughed about your curved spine, anything to avoid those I would say.

[Mychael]

But surely large pilothouses like that would have a high degree of windage. Is that not counter productive to good sailing? And the large glass areas, vunerable in heavy seas??
I don't know the answers just tossing those thoughts up to get opinions.

Mychael

[Wilma Ham]

That is a good question about the height of structures on deck. I noticed that looks are used as an argument to keep structures within a certain height but not much about windage. Are looks not subject to fashion and maybe education. If the height of a structure/dodger avoids curved spines and give you protection against weather in a comfortable position, surely some education could solve resistence or is it windage that keeps the height down?

[Guillermo]

But surely large pilothouses like that would have a high degree of windage. Is that not counter productive to good sailing? And the large glass areas, vunerable in heavy seas??
I don't know the answers just tossing those thoughts up to get opinions.
Mychael
Yes, Banjers are not the best of sailing boats, but very nice motorsailers. They don't go up well into the wind, but they have the iron genny for that. And yes, large windows are vulnerable in heavy seas. In my opinion Banjers are very nice coastal motorsailors, with ability for occassional passages in more or less good weather windows. Something like a Category B under the RCD.
Having said that, I have to say they have done several oceans crossings and suffered pretty bad weather conditions without big damage. Some owners report to have plexiglass covers for the wheelhouse windows, but they also confess they do not use them, even in bad weather.
The only report from a Banjer having problems with those windows, was 200 miles off Finisterre in a full gale. A wave knocked down JAN VAN GENT, broking windows and badly hurting the captain. Crew of three (man, woman and child), abandoned boat and drifted with the raft for some days, surviving only the woman. JAN VAN GENT was later found floating safely, with only some water in the bilges. Nowadays is owned by a Banjers Club member under another name.
For more info on Banjers abilities you may be interested in visiting
http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/lines_sailing.htm

Cheers.

[FAST FRED]

An advantage of the pilot house over a dodger is the ease with which solar can be installed.

This is very usefull as many cruising boats kill the batt set by never fully recharging , something solar excells at.

FAST FRED