Benefits of manufacturing in India

[fispl]

For any large scale manufacturer or broker the benefits of manufacturing in India are many. The foremost would definitely be access to a market which is likely to grow manifold in the near future. A society which is progressing economically by leaps and bounds every day is sure to be the next big destination for a luxury industry market. However present projections give India until about 2010 till sale of recreational vehicles pick up. Marinas are already well under construction and the affluent have started wondering what is to be done with the excess money. It is only a matter of time before the thunder strikes.

Apart from the future scenario to say the very least India is well placed to be an excellent outsourcing hub for the present. The prices of machinery, equipment as well as GRP raw materials for boats like resins and glass fibres are almost the same as the rest of the world. However the composite boat industry being a labour intensive one, the cost benefits in labour is still huge (although probably not for an extended period of time). Also the prices of fabricated or casted fittings are way more competitive than in the western world. These factors alone return a huge benefit in cost and the same may be passed on to the end consumer. Detailed Cost Benefit Analysis has shown even with the added cost of transportation this saving is enormous.

India has a distinct advantage with regards to geographical location. Its place right in between the far east and the middle east makes it a natural hub for the business of supply for the region. This is also an avenue which is probably not yet fully exploited. Overall it seems a pretty encouraging picture of things to come.

For more details on the subject please visit http://www.fispl.com/boatsfaq_companies.html

Your feedback on the above thread is solicited.

[Frosty]

You Know I think most people will already be aware of this. The problem is and I dont know about Goa, is can foriegners own land or even work there. I am used to being a second class citizen in foriegn countries. I would love to be able to do something with out making up micky mouse companies or using trustess name who are not very trustworthy to get around this problem.
Most coutries round here any way are mostly similar in that atitude. There is also ways of buisness the local way, "Oh you are making lots of money, you are going to sell your buisness to me for this much"( pionting gun at head)

Sorry to be a realist but Ive lived out here in the East a long time. They say never bring in more money than you are prepaired to loose.

Now if you going to invest with government backing and you are say goint to make Ford trucks under license then thats different.

Openeing a small boat yard with a trustee wife and dealing with the locals yourself. Keep your money in the bank.

Now if Goa says you can own land and work and open bank accounts own cheque books, driving licenses, register a vehicle in your name ( All difficult in Thailand) then that would be different. Untill then its the same as every where else.

[fispl]

Thanks for your excellent remarks Jack.

Here are few of your concerns elucidated. I am not a lawyer, nor am I an expert in international business. However I saw your post & did some basic digging which laymen (from the legal standpoint) can figure out & build upon.

As for owning land in India. From what I understand there is some kind of law which prohibits foreign nationals from owning residential land in Goa, only until they secure a residency permit. However we are talking business here. There is absolutely no problem with a registered company owning land in Goa for legitimate business purposes. It could be an Indian company or the subsidiary of a foreign company registered in India. Now this I think makes sense. We are talking about outsourcing opportunities in this thread. As a means to this end there has to be a company which wants to do business themselves in India (by registering a subsidiary in India which isn't too much hassle) or get their job done by an Indian company, either individually or through a joint venture with an Indian company which again is pretty simple to register. For this kind of a concern there are no legal hindrances of owning land & doing business here. Yes as the owner or employee of this kind of organisation you are automatically entitled to credit cards, driving licences etc etc.

Having said the above I see no reason why any mickey mouse business has to be resorted to, to carry out a legitimate business venture. One of the reasons India is on the "hot business destinations" map is because things do work here & the advantages are many as I pointed out earlier. I am not saying that there is no corruption & hanky panky going on in the government, but these are at managable levels. I have not heard of "locals pointing a gun at foreigners heads & taking over their businesses". Sure there might be an isolated case or two of theiving or mugging - point is isn't it everywhere? Obviously people are doing a hell of a lot of profitable business & the fantastic growth over the last few years has become economic folklore. Well except China I don't see such stupendous success stories with any other economy in the region.

Goa is a very cosmopolitan place & there is a huge number of foreigners who have made it their home here - for business or for pleasure. It is an ideal destination for doing business as the govt also gives a lot of breaks to business ventures. We have been based here since 1979 & are still running a very successful business which is growing manifolds lately.

Lest this post become too long & boring I'll stop here & please people let's have some more posts on here on this very interesting & important issue. I hope to clear a few misgivings on this forum. On a lighter note whats the icy crispy chilly elf doing in warm Thailand??

[Frosty]

Icy crispy chilly elf???? you got me there!!!

Yes you probably can own land after obtaining residency but what does that entail/
Yes you can own land after reg a company, a mickey mouse one set up for the sole purpose of getting around foriegn land ownership laws. I think you will find that 49% will be the max amount of foriegners allowed to hold shares of the company. The other 51% being that of the lawer his driver , gardener, cleaner etc

All this trouble in a language that is not your own, laws, contracts all in a forign language.
Unless you are a National this is not a very nice atmosphere on which to have bounding enthusiasm.
Would it not be therefore better to open companies in your own country. I cant help thinking therfore why so many Indians come to England to prosper if they could go to Goa.

Might I suggest you tell us who you are and what you call successfull, how did you do it , how many employees etc.

[fispl]

What I am having a wee bit trouble understanding here is how Mickey mouse is coming into the picture. We’re talking about a legitimate business venture. Mickey mouse really doesn’t have any place here.

I have only tried to enumerate a few benefits of doing legitimate business in India. Of course every country have their own rules & fortunately or unfortunately you have to play by them. The point is how badly do the rules affect you? Are the benefits at the end of the day worth the rules you’re playing by? Here is a page below which everyone might find very helpful in understanding the nature & scope of this discussion. Let’s not forget we’re talking about the macro aspects here. Once you are convinced of the macro elements the micro issues usually sort themselves out.

Here is the promised page – the international FDI confidence index of 2005. Please do take a look as it quantifies most of what I have been saying.

http://www.atkearney.com/main.taf?p=5,3,1,140,1

http://www.atkearney.com/main.taf?p=5,3,1,140,10

No doubt India is still weak especially on its infrastructural strength. However seeing the rapid pace of development around me, it only leads me to believe that there is much more growth potential in a behemoth which is already the 2nd most attractive investment destination in the world.

Now back again to your concerns.
A residency permit for India is just like any other country, you fill out the forms, submit the supporting documentation & then you wait. It normally doesn’t take a very long time (about 2-3 months I think).
Indian laws have increased FDI caps on most industries to 74% from the existing 49%, so you can in fact own most of the shares in the company (also mentioned in the above report that I have cited).
There is no question of understanding a foreign language as all paperwork here is done in english. This is also cited as one of the biggest plusses of India.
As for so many Indians going to England – there is no doubt people will seek a better life. India offered a very limited & protected business environment for a long time. Hence lots of people did move away to England. However if you look at very recent trends those same people of Indian origin are doubling back to invest in India as these are the people who probably smell an opportunity better than any of us. I cannot cite exact figures but I’m quite convinced that the mad rush to leave has dwindled due to the excellent opportunities back here at home. There’s no place like home is there?
As for investing in your own country – why not? This was just an opportunity which has been highlighted. It is a fact that you cannot have as much security anywhere else except your own home country. I agree with you on that.
What we do etc.? Please visit our website below & you can get an idea. However this discussion was not about you or me, but of a more macro scale.

And hey Jack keep the comments coming. You’re the best when it comes to a healthy debate. :)

[SeaSpark]

Hoi Fispl,

Could you post some more sample pictures of pleasure craft you have build?
I looked on your website but could not find good high resolution pictures. Some images of construction details on the craft also would be very welcome.

I strongly believe the labour intensive boating industry deserves a place in countries where labour is still affordable.

[Frosty]

As you had to make enquiries into a residency permit, I then assume therfore that you are a National. I would be interested to know what the criteria is for this residency. I ask because here in Thailand it is a bit more involved than filling in some forms and waiting.
For instance one of those forms would be a marrage certificate of yourself to a local, and how many kids you are supporting. Rather a drastic procedure when you just wanted to make some boats. You will need to have been here for a number of years and take a language test. Then you pay about 4000 dollars. Then you sit and wait---and wait.
It is quite likely that Goa will be similar.

I appreciate that you input is meant to be for larger investors with government assistance than your average 'Joe Bloggs', as your opening statement of your original thread starter immplies. However from acorns do oak trees grow. So we agree? Goa is no place for acorns.

[Ari]

I ask because here in Thailand it is a bit more involved than filling in some forms and waiting.
For instance one of those forms would be a marrage certificate of yourself to a local, and how many kids you are supporting. Rather a drastic procedure when you just wanted to make some boats. .
Ahh..I face the same problem in Indonesia..eventhough I don't mind much about having another wife there..but..the two very sweet dragon that I have do really team up and convinced me that it is too risky to pay a visit there without their escort..!
Before I'am granted the work permit to work in Singapore..I had to sign a form of commitment that I will not make pregnant any Singapore lady during my stay there..he..he..

[bhabanism]

You dont need to be a citizen to own land in India - Has Bill Gates taken Indian citizenship? Miscrosoft is manufacturing in India.

[Frosty]

India is a filthy disgusting place. A horrifying experience to the visitor, the only way to not get sick is to eat canned food or take your own. A place where cows wander the cities. A place where people sell there children. A place where children purposley have there limbs amputated or distorted (against there will) so they may have the blessing of a sound income -begging.

Would a place such as this refuse the richest man in the world buisness rights?

Bill and his new found philantropy probably doesnt care about profit ,--just a legitimate way of directing some money to the poor with out bothering the government.

[Figgy]

uhhh, wow Jack, very......enlightening.

[hansp77]

If boats don't work out for you- you could always try for a job writing travel guides:D
Frosty Planet guides...



lets just say india is not for everyone.
But neither is any place.
I have many freinds who call India their favorite place,
yet my father and his partner recently got drugged and completely robbed from within their hotel room in Ko Samui.
each to their own.
there aint anything horrible happening in India that isn't happening in numerouse places over the world.

[Frosty]

I think you might have left a little bit out of your Ko Samui storey. To be drugged and robbed is frequent if you take a girl from the street home with you. Some one must have been there to drug them!!!! A forced entry into a occupied hotel room I have never heard of.


Frosty planet guide,---Mmm--it does have a ring to it.

[hansp77]

I certainly left out a lot of the story. Personal details I guess.
Short story, someone gained access to their locked hotel room (not a cheap one and nothing dodgey involved) and sprayed them in face with anaesthetic spray. Robbed them clean. Probably inside job. The spray could have killed my dads aestmetic partner. Their faces were swolen for months.
It happens.

[Frosty]

sorry to hear that. Ive never heard of any thing like that before.

[hansp77]

thanks,
yeah, they didn't exactly hang around long to make noise about it.
They were thinking about settling there, not anymore unfortunately.
Bit of bad luck.

[Frosty]

there aint anything horrible happening in India that isn't happening in numerouse places over the world.

Actually there is,-- there are the untouchables ( not the movie) these people are so down classed( because of thier horrendous occupation of removing feaces from public toilets) that they can not show there faces in daylight. These are un-partitioned dry toilets that ,--- never mind.

People die in the street and are left there for days before collection.

What other countries are there that could be so horrendous, Cambodia Vietnam, nothing like---

[Crag Cay]

People die in the street and are left there for days before collection.
What other countries are there that could be so horrendous?
New Orleans one year ago? I remember film of bodies laying close to large groups of National Guards who couldn't (wouldn't?) do anything about them because 'they hadn't been tasked with that mission'.

I don't think India has a monopoly on these sorts of incidents. Sure, everyone who's been there can recount examples of a lack of compassion, but the way we treat old people in Britain is not beyond criticism. And if we are a 'global village', I didn't see many here in the west rushing to the aid of our fellow villagers in Lebonan.

India is a vast complex country. I think it offers huge oppurtunities for those with the right attitude. Surely it's in all our interests to see the country prosper rather than just have China develop into a monolithic economic super power?

[gamage]

You Know I think most people will already be aware of this. The problem is and I dont know about Goa, is can foriegners own land or even work there. I am used to being a second class citizen in foriegn countries. I would love to be able to do something with out making up micky mouse companies or using trustess name who are not very trustworthy to get around this problem.
Most coutries round here any way are mostly similar in that atitude. There is also ways of buisness the local way, "Oh you are making lots of money, you are going to sell your buisness to me for this much"( pionting gun at head)

Sorry to be a realist but Ive lived out here in the East a long time. They say never bring in more money than you are prepaired to loose.

Now if you going to invest with government backing and you are say goint to make Ford trucks under license then thats different.

Openeing a small boat yard with a trustee wife and dealing with the locals yourself. Keep your money in the bank.

Now if Goa says you can own land and work and open bank accounts own cheque books, driving licenses, register a vehicle in your name ( All difficult in Thailand) then that would be different. Untill then its the same as every where else.

Thank u for ur reply

[Frosty]

You can Pm if you want but I am not interested in opening any buisneses, employment, employing, investing in anything--- If you have something constructive to say about Goa then post it for all to see.

[Poida]

Jack - A lot of companies are now opening up in India. Maybe that will save a lot of people from chopping off whatever in order to beg.

Maybe now they can get ligitimate jobs.

There are restrictions on foreiners owning property in Australia.

There are unfortunately little restrictions on foreiners owning companies in Australia.

I believe whatever experiences life provides, it is only a little of what is around.

Shit I think that was pretty good, look for that saying when next you get your desk calender. if it says anonimous you will know Poida said it.

Anyway Jack you appear to be judging this issue from your own experiences, is there a possibility, although slim, you maybe wrong.:rolleyes:

[Frosty]

What me wrong??

The thing is of course I could be wrong but only marginally as the third world has similar policies all over. It is quite simply in order to stop rich westerners coming in and buying land and houses and sending prices sky high so locals cant get a look in. Perfectly Ok with me or at least I mean I understand.

The foriegner will usually be more educated in buisness skills and again wipe the board clean.---understood.

If I want to live here --and I do ---I wil have to put up with it.

I an talking from 18 years experience in Thailand --I do not have direct experience with other third world countries but I am prepared to believe that they are similar.

I am not bothered if any one knows ways around these laws or if my interpretations are slighty incorrect.

I am not interested in any investment opportunities in the least.

[longliner45]

I must agree with jack,,if you take saftey and enviornment and health benifits out and retirement benifits out ,,that leaves room for bigger profits big buisiness if India keeps the peasant down .and is only good for the upper class,,,who keep getting richer off the sweat of the poor mans back ,,not to go off track too much ,,but look at Mexico ,,general motors goes there ,, in usa ,it is illeagal to dump heavy metals and toxins in the streets right outside the plant,,but in Mexico it is ok ,,no epa ,,no osha ,,,,,no rights ,,,,,,exept for big money,,,,longliner

[longliner45]

after signing off I rememberd that India has also the strongest labor unions in the world,,I always give credit where credit is due ,,but why is it (India)like this?

[bhabanism]

People like jack frost are called harami in India. By the way India is a difficult place to do business if you are stupid enough. I wish Mr. Frost is forced to live in slums all his life.

[Frosty]

People like jack frost are called harami in India. By the way India is a difficult place to do business if you are stupid enough. I wish Mr. Frost is forced to live in slums all his life.

Hello bhabanism. I agree that India is a difficult place to do buisness. Is that why millions of Indians every year apply to live in England.

If a harami is a person who learns of his suroundings, and does'nt get the wool pulled over his eys-- well yes I am he, and thank you.

Im a bit lost on the last one? Do you mean I should consider the poor who have to live in slums, which I do-- or are you trying to cast a spell on me?

It may please you to know that I was once at one time quite poor. But the slums of northern England arent quite up to your standards.

But after all the Indian immigrants have finished with it --they could well be.

[bhabanism]

So, you are from UK. It may be difficult to do business in India but it's not possible to do anything of that sort in UK, is not it? Else why would they outsource? Is it true that there is no talent left in West, I heard all work moving to China! And I think with the spread of migrants the whole of Englund would be a slum. God knows what will happen!

[safewalrus]

bhabanism, I'm so glad God Knows what will happen in the UK because Jack sure as Hell does not! He may have a UK passport but he rarely visits (for reasons of his own!) but no doubt will when he gets sick or some nasty man comes along and kidnaps him - he'll soon be begging for the UK forces to come and rescue him [deja vu here Jack] (won't pay their taxes but he wants what he can get - for nothing!). Also pretty good at telling others how to live their lives - but don't appear to know much about the place - Goa, Jack is psrt of India - has been since just after the second world war when India was GIVEN their independance - they then marched into Portugese Goa and took the place over by force! Replacing a relative benigh government with a slightly corrupt distant one! Another Of Ghandi's little peaceful demonstrations - like the partition of India and Pakistan in which over a million died! But that's past history, times are moving on (forgive but don't forget) and slowly the sub continent is moving towards prosperity and civilisation - not unlike when the Raj ruled it (the murders and racial tensions go underground)

[Frosty]

Im sorry guys Im not that old. Im afraid I dont know anything about Ghandi the Raj and the Portugese in Goa. I dont have prostate trouble ( my psa is only 0.45) and I dont pay tax to Uk. But at one time I did. I must have paid for a few missiles at least.

I am classed as a none resident--Boanfide tax exile.

I prefer to visit the pristene hospitals of Thailand, and I mean pristene. If there is anything more serious I go to a civilised country like Australia where the cost of private health care is 1/3 that of Uk and the carpest is 5 times thicker.

I dont have health care or insurance. I make more money in one day than I can spend in a week by sitting on the beach.

Walrus you are under the misguided notion that uk is Great. You are living in the third world. Your government thinks you are so stupid that you need to be told when to stop drinking, or to be able to buy some medicine and diagnose your own cold.

Most people can not afford to buy a house in Uk.


I have given my house here in Thailand away, 3 bedroomed 2 story.

Im sorry I do not understand the worlds wars, theres too many of them to remember unless you enjoy that kind of thing.

bhabanism Im sorry to you too- no matter how hard you wish I will not be living in slums.

Enjoy The wonderfull misserable Great Britain, I dont want to know---at all.

[bhabanism]

Haha! Neither Britain nor India is Great. Only Mr. Jack is Great. One who hates his motherland and goes like a dog to where ever he finds a bone are really 'Great Human Beings'. At least I can say wherever Indians live they will not tolerate insult to their Motherland.

[Frosty]

bhabanism. I was put on this planet to enjoy my life.

I was told this at school by the religious teacher. I intend to do that. It may have escaped your notice but this is not a dress rehersal. When you die thats it.

I suppose you are going somewhere else and continue life as a cow or somerhing, good luck ?

Find me a British citizen that thinks England is a good place to live.

Ille show you a man that darent leave, he has a dominant wife, and thinks he cant do it. He wont be able to give you a reason just excuses and then calls me lucky. I see them everyday.

The worst thing about England is the immigrants of which most pour into the country unable to speak English.
Mostly from India and Pakistan, these people have found out that Uk will feed you and house you. I had to pay for this in taxes.

It came to the piont that my tax man warned me that next year I shall have to pay 66% of my earnings to the Government.

Ille bet you have relatives in Uk---Bradford probably.

This used to be a lovely place with parks and lakes. Now it looks like calcutta with shops selling things I dont know what. The streets are dangerous to walk on and have been for 50 years.

Congragating together sharing shoes and beds these people destroyed my country.

Not only that these people bring with them a religion I cant understand. Killing the very people who educated them . Using British technical colleges to learn to make bombs.

Indians and others are fined every day for forging documents to scrounge money from the government of England.

Lie and cheat, faking injuries and passports to bring more scum into the country. Cosavans, Pakistanis, Polish, you name it.

I have been driven away.

[Wynand N]

Haha! Neither Britain nor India is Great. Only Mr. Jack is Great. One who hates his motherland and goes like a dog to where ever he finds a bone are really 'Great Human Beings'. At least I can say wherever Indians live they will not tolerate insult to their Motherland.

I hate my motherland, the murders, rape, hijackings, robberies etc that are a national sport over here, especially by the black population. I believe we now have more Nigerians drug/prostitution dealers here than Nigerians in their own motherland.
Would this make me a dog if I leave this "paradise" for a bone elsewhere:?:

All that said, the products that are dumped on our shores from the land of curry, is a disgrace. To mention but a few; Tata and Mharinda automobiles - bad news. In the case of the Tata (goodbye in my language!) the smell is sickening inside the car, perhaps they burn incense in it to some cow or ape god whilst building it.......

Disclaimer: I am not racist, but there is no way around the fact of life that there are different ethnic groups and people of colour all over the world, and is the case in my country, most crimes have a colour tag and ethnic related most of the times......

[Frosty]

Wynand --good post.

You know the Indians are strange in my opinion. Able to hold thier head high whilst standing in a pile of cow dung.

The seventh wonder of the world the Tahj Mahal (sorry for the spelling) is rotting away from human urine. Yes the Indians piss on it.

They are able to see good through the cloudiest of situations. Dead people on the street. "Oh they will be taken away soon dont worry"

I once had had dinner with a very well to do Indian for a buisness meeting. We were eating in a very nice resteraunt in Dubai. I am almost ashamed to tell you that whilst eating dinner the Indian blew his nose into his hand and wiped it on the wall.

I have see an Indian cough up phlem and spit it into the corner of a lift (elevator) Im sorry Bhabanism but Ive never ever seen a westerner do these things.

Is it part of your religion to do this --Do you wish to explain.

I too am not racist against colour or religion as long as I dont get it pushed down my throat,- how can I be, living in a foriegn country. But-- I am racist against ingnorance.

[bhabanism]

I am very delighted to listen the condition of England being made by the Asians and Africans. If this continues the natives will be extinct in few decades. I am not at all sympathetic as they are getting the fruits of the deeds. Tyrants have to suffer at last. What respect can one show a country whose Prime Minister is a Pet dog of American President.

[Frosty]

Yes I didnt think that you would have an appropriate response to the table manners of Indians.

However to move on. It would be to India's benefit if they were to be taken over by Pakistan. A far more buisness minded country.

Do you have something against dogs- every post you make has referece to a dog!! Are you Muslim?

[Ari]

Jack don't worry too much about any other country or any bhaba, Thailand is real nice country, Malaysia is real good for me, enjoy these while you still can, don't bother too much about the unlucky one..come.. lets the Tiger or a Singha take care of that.

[bhabanism]

Sorry, I was busy with my project so could not reply. Nice to hear a Thai speaking Hindi (Singha). By the way Jack, I think you misinterpreted the religious leader who asked you to enjoy life. He was not asking you to rome around in vane - that's not enjoying life. Do something good for your nation you will get more enjoyment out of it.

[Frosty]

Your not a relation of walrus are you, you seem to have the same dislexic like tendancies.

I did not say religious leader--adviser ( bit different)
I do not rome around in vane. Ive lived here 17 years
I do enjoy life more that you would understand.

As much as I enjoy talking to you I shall not be correcting you on further posts.

If you want to get a rise out of me fine. Dont twist my words around to enable you to fabricate a nonsence post.

[bhabanism]

You seem to forget what you write. May be some split personality problem. Never mind. Let's end the discussion.

[Frosty]

I can see now why I am the last one talking to you.

[alan white]

In defense of humanity in general, I would insert here something that will surprise both of you, and that is that the two of you, despite your perceived differences, are exactly alike in more ways than not.
One cannot do without the other. It is a masterful example of symbiosis that creates this thread, not two men with opposite views.
There is a reason why a boat has only one bow and one stern. Progress forward requires that the sea and the boat both recognize that their force is challenged by blunt objects.
This is why boats are not driven stern-to against head seas. And while the sea attempts to stop the boat with the bluntness of waves, the boat does not say, "Oh yeah? Two can play at that game!", whereapon the boat spins around and reverses to challenge the sea with its blunt arse.
Both sea and boat have different destinations. Then why does it make sense that each should pound against each other, going nowhere, unless the two are exactly where they wish to be already, bound together, unmoving?

A.W.

[SamSam]

In defense of humanity in general, I would insert here something that will surprise both of you, and that is that the two of you, despite your perceived differences, are exactly alike in more ways than not.
One cannot do without the other. It is a masterful example of symbiosis that creates this thread, not two men with opposite views.
There is a reason why a boat has only one bow and one stern. Progress forward requires that the sea and the boat both recognize that their force is challenged by blunt objects.
This is why boats are not driven stern-to against head seas. And while the sea attempts to stop the boat with the bluntness of waves, the boat does not say, "Oh yeah? Two can play at that game!", whereapon the boat spins around and reverses to challenge the sea with its blunt arse.
Both sea and boat have different destinations. Then why does it make sense that each should pound against each other, going nowhere, unless the two are exactly where they wish to be already, bound together, unmoving?

A.W.

I would actually be insulted to be compared to a degenerate like bhabanism. There is no plus for the world in people like him, that I can see. Tolerance has limits.

[alan white]

Yet, if he also feels the same about you, then the two of you share something, which is a lack of tolerance. I think such limits to tolerance are experienced by the American and British governments, and despite their rightiousness, a hundred thousand or more collateral Iraqis lay dead. The Iraqi citizens never knew they were getting involved in someone else's lack of tolerance.
What is the limit of tolerance? If a mere posting in a forum surpasses that limit, what would the limit be then?
We react because we're bound to ideas, ideas we believe we can't escape. As such, we are easily manipulated by others. They wind us up and we go, just as if they were the child and we were the toy.
So I won't announce to you that an insult is going to control what I say or do. It won't. Ring the bell, and I won't salivate.
Or am I getting it wrong?

A.

[SamSam]

Yes, I believe you're getting it wrong. He's a POS.

[alan white]

Thanks, Sam. There's not much more for me to say.

Regards, Alan

[rayk]

alan white,

you are a genius. What insight you bring to the analysis of humanity and the relationships between the haves and have nots.

Tolerance.....something that is practised in the first and new world. Tolerance for jerk offs looting and burning and destabilizing their host countries. While in their country of origin good citizens scream and shout for benevolent treatment from the 'super powers'.

Tolerance for children.

By the way, a yacht made in India will be a great product for Indians.

[alan white]

Building world class yachts in India is a natural progression. So much coastline, so many talented and willing people to build them, and more and more, Indians who will buy them.

A.

[rayk]

Yeah, another Time magazine front page...

Why isnt South America the natural progression for building world class yachts?

Or China......

[alan white]

They are.

http://www.marlowexplorer.com/norsemen.htm

[rayk]

This post was drivel. I have selectively edited out the worst parts.

[alan white]

Why would I explain something I didn't say?

[Frosty]

India make absalutely nothing involving quality.

They did not even make curry,-that was the British army spicing rancid meat--Indian cow meat.

What imediately springs to mind is the Royal Enfield motor cycle.

This was a British motorcycle that india now makes . Im not concerned at copyrights here.

This a piece of crap. The metal quality is so bad they the head can not be torqed to specifications.

Throttle cables, wheel bearing are a daily failure.

Can anyone think of something of quality.

Railway maintenace and management--perhaps.

[SamSam]

They are.

My first intention was to comment about environmental problems, but then bhabanism's own personal pollution side tracked me.

These places have no cares about the environment and that is one of the reasons they can build so cheap. I remember an ad in Professional Boatbuilder a few years ago of a boatbuilding facility for sale in Brazil, I think, and at the top of the list of advantages and stressed throughout the ad was that there were no environmental restrictions.

Breaking up ships is an example of what countries like these allow their poor to do. You can't do it in a developed country, it's not allowed.

http://www.ban.org/ban_news/2004/040323_call_to.html

"As part of the "START Ship Recycling" campaign, Greenpeace has released shocking images, showing workers handling asbestos at yards in India.
Ships from around the world are broken up by workers, including children, without protective equipment.
Rusting hulks are pulled onto the beaches and slowly torn apart by workers paid as little as £1 a day.
As well as asbestos, the ships often contain PCBs, fuel oil and lead, and those dismantling them risk injury from falling metalwork or explosions triggered after cutting into fuel tanks."

World class yachts can possibly/probably be built in those countries but you wonder how much did the boat cost in terms of shortened, lost, or diminished lives and health of not only the workforce that built it but the general population that has to drink and breath and live in the resultant pollution of unregulated industry. Sam

[longliner45]

you are 100% correct sam,,, ,,, lets not forget the profit margin of the misrerably rich,who only care about money ,,,at all cost,,,sadly,longliner

[alan white]

Those same people may very well be choosing their poison, work with risk or starve. We all do that to some degree. Education illuminates the risks, and while some will continue working at risk, at least knowing the risks is the best policy to work towards.
I've seen what Bath Iron works in Bath, Maine has done to workers and their wives who washed their work asbestos-laden clothes, and this is far from ancient history. I've been to their funerals.
It seems industry, unregulated though it has been, has built economies that provided the wealth and education that later caused those same industries to bargain for workers by making workplaces safe.
Do you have a solution? Remember, until there are international standards for industry safety, the work will all go to the lowest bidder.
But look how quickly India and China are rising economically. The rise of workplace safety will correspond with the rise of literacy and wealth.

A.

[Frosty]

Ofcourse working in dangerous conditions with toxic materials is unaccepatble without the proper precausions.

Dont forget re cycling these things has to be done and it will always be to the lowest bidder.

Pehaps we should build them differently, with dismantling in mind, Oh Oh cant do that it will go over budget.

However stoping it has to be done with great care and is not as simple as shuting it down.

I have seen this before where westerners come to the east and are appaled at so called sweat shops.

Well these "sweatshops" employ children usually for thier nimble fingers. These children probably earn nothing in comparison to the west,-- but hold on a minute.

There is no social security or any financial assistance what so ever in these countries. These 12 year olds are keeping families who otherwise would have a big zero income. They want to work -love to work- and are the family heros.

Getting back to the ship breakers. If they are working for a dollar and shifting asbestos then that should be stoped now.

But thats India where mr bharbanism is advertising the 'benefits of manufacturing in India'. Mr bharbanism seems to want us all to go there and invest in this sespit of a country. He's gone very quiet now has'nt he?

India has an incredibley long way to go to keep up with the rest of the world famine deseases bathing in their own feaces contaminated water.

To them this is Ok they dont know better. The upper class do but its them and us. India is divided by them and us.

Most of the so called upper class dont ever speak their own language 'Indian',--it is below them.

Billions see movies every day to escape from this life of never ending tread mill of misery.

[longliner45]

what bath done was done in ignorance to asbestos ,,we learned,,,what is the excuses from those that know now,,,,,to start with general motors ,,you cant dump heavy metals ,,or toxins outside the plant in detroit ,,so why is it ok in mexico , ,children are being poisoned NOW,, in china ,,a perfect example ( pet food) chemicals outlawed in US are ok to use there ,,,,,results,,,,,,our pets die,and what about crayons for your kids ,,and other food products?,worker in paint industryin US must have ventaltor booths,,,,do you think china mexico and india ?like Ive said before ,,the reason china and the rest have such economic growth ,,is because they simply dont care about the human element ,a blind man can see this ,,, take a good ,,good look around time to smell the coffey,,,longliner

[charmc]

Those same people may very well be choosing their poison, work with risk or starve. We all do that to some degree.

No, Alan, we don't. Your use of the equivocating phrase, "to some degree", does not validate your attempting to equate the Alang shipbreaking yards with American industry.

I've seen what Bath Iron works in Bath, Maine has done to workers and their wives who washed their work asbestos-laden clothes, and this is far from ancient history.

Your intent, I'm sure, is good, but the facts don't support your statements. In the US prior to 1972 (the situation was somewhat similar in Europe, but I will limit my remarks to my own experience and direct research), the use of asbestos as thermal insulation was mandated by law because of its complete thermal resistant properties. Fire was a major hazard and mass killer in urban America; asbestos was required by laws and fire codes because it was the only available material that was fireproof as well as being able to insulate other materials from extreme heat. Following several deadly fires in theaters that started on stage and killed hundreds of people, theaters were required to have asbestos curtains. "After 1900 in most cities one could not obtain a building permit, or insurance, or a mortgage without using at least some asbestos". (Source: "Asbestos and Fire: Technological Tradeoffs and the Body at Risk", Rachel Maines, 2005) In buildings, factories, and ships asbestos was required in specifications; no substitutes were permitted.

My point, Alan, is that, contrary to what mass tort lawyers and the hysterical media would have you believe, according to all available data until the late 1950's and 1960's, asbestos produced great benefits for individuals and society, with few if any drawbacks. Even when the first potential relationships between asbestos and pulmonary problems were being discovered, it was believed in good faith by the scientific community that the proven benefit of protecting millions of people from fire justified its continued use, particulary because there was no viable substitute. At this point in time, however, governments and industry throughout the world have known the dangers of asbestos for more than 30 years and, in the US and most of Europe, have banned or limited its use and specified precautions for its handling and disposal. In India, not only do industrial leaders deliberately ignore safety, health, and pollution hazards, but government officials created the Alang zone in the 1980's specifically for shipbreaking. The government continues to lie about conditions there and to harass and threaten anyone who attempts to improve conditions.

To believe that the situation in Alang is similar to that in Bath and elsewhere in America, Australia, and Europe is, at best, extremely naiive. Despite the fact that they already have a huge economic advantage because of lower labor costs, too many governments and industrial leaders in Third World countries tolerate and encourage the abuse of their own people just to make even more money.

[charmc]

Longliner, Sam,

As you see, I agree with your thoughts. Well said.

Jack,

While I look forward to insulting you (and vice versa) in other threads; on this topic of importance I'm pleased to be standing at your side.

I find it ironic that the technology of instant communication, which makes it so easy for some governments to know about and criticize US and European government policies, also makes it very easy for them to know how to protect their own people in the workplace ..... and yet they don't. The word "hypocrisy" comes to mind.

Charlie

[alan white]

"To believe that the situation in Alang is similar to that in Bath and elsewhere in America, Australia, and Europe is, at best, extremely naiive. Despite the fact that they already have a huge economic advantage because of lower labor costs, too many governments and industrial leaders in Third World countries tolerate and encourage the abuse of their own people just to make even more money."

To some degree... is all I said, and it's a fact that I'm surrounded in this part of the United States by a lot of people who choose daily between economic survival and their health. They do not live as long as more well to do folks, primarily because they must continue to work even if they aren't well.
That isn't naive, nor do I imply there isn't a far worse fate available to those who toil in third world countries. Simply a matter of degree, as said, and that allows a means to empathize.
The rest, I'm assuming you agree with. Education is vital to the many workers who do not know what asbestos or trichlorethelene is.
It is true that asbestos has saved lives. It could have done so even if it were made safe, which it is now required to be. It is also a fact that american industry used asbestos for applications that were clearly unsafe for both worker and end user years after science became aware of its devastating health effects.
I personally found out only five years ago that vermiculite (a common building insulation available in hardware stores not too long ago) does the same thing as asbestos to the lungs. This has also been known for ages, though I had been wading in it only weeks before I learned of its dangers.
Nor did I know a thing about the dangers of blowing compressed air to clean brake dust when I did brake jobs as an employee when I was seventeen (1973).
Education. Most importantly, a government that is accountable for delivering scientific knowledge to the ones who pay them to do it, here and elsewhere, whether regarding the dangers of polluted water or the dangers of psycho-active drugs.
Frankly, Charlie, I find no disagreement with what you've written, except as noted. I would suggest a humanistic/environmental industry standard which, like other stamps of approval, such as UL tags, clearly states that a manufacturer verifyably ascribes to a strict standard involving worker treatment, pollution reduction, and further, uses no vendors who are not up to the same standards.
Let it be an elective standard, and the consumer can decide. Hopefully, it would catch on, and I for one would pay more for the product.

Alan

[alan white]

Longliner, I'm not disagreeing with your commentary on Chinese working conditions and pollution standards. I only commented that they are growing economies. I didn't say a word about how wonderful this is, or for that matter, how terrible it is. If you can show me how you were led to think, "a blind man can see this ,,, take a good ,,good look around time to smell the coffey,,,----------- as if I don't see it, or had argued in favor of child labor and billowing black smoke, I'll say, "Oops!"
It's funny how people who completely agree about the basic problem of rampant industrialization can't discuss the topic without making broad assumptions about the intentions of the one they're talking with.
I almost bever buy Chinese products for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is I don't wish to support the manufacture of goods at such humanistic cost. Just last week i bought a pair of American made steel-toed boots. This week I am searching hard for an American made Delta or Powermatic bandsaw----- used. Home Depot has exactly what I need for only $349.00.
It's Chinese, unfortunately. A bargain for me, but that casting was almost certainly produced without much regard for things I like to support, like clean air for example.
My drill press is an old Craftsman. My table saw an American Delta. Ditto virtually all of my power tools, hand tools, mechanic tools, welders, furniture, clothes----- almost without exception.
I burn only American fuel to heat my home----- wood. As far as I'm concerned, it is fine if you or anyone else here chooses to buy Chinese or Indian or any other emerging third world country out there.
Just know where the problem really originates. Someone has to buy all those products. Look around your shop, your home, your garage, your closets.
Then tell me what the problem is.

Alan

[Frosty]

That is very admirable of you alen, and if you do that well it is your choice. I hate to say that you are pissing in to the wind doing this on your own, but I take my hat off to you.

Are you saying that if we all adopted this --"buy my own country product thing" that this would bring down cost of maunufacturing-- said home product to levels on par with asian under develpoed countries. yet still taking care of pollution and environmental consiquences?

[alan white]

No. I drive a Toyota truck, which imports less oil, if not vehicles. I'm not jingoistic at all. I do believe in sustainable living, which means responsible support of local products. It is a fallacy that we couldn't live without Wal Mart. While they sell American groceries, virtually everything else is Chinese.
I find that the things I really need------ food, shelter, fuel, etc., are domestic products anyway. What is amazing to me is how few people realize how simple it would be to pay more for the more peripheral items and support the one economy that makes their lives better. They save money on the front end, if electronics and clothes and weed wackers and rugs are their thing. They pay back on the back end though, when their neighbors lose their jobs and their government is borrowing money from China to feed the consumer-driven stock market. The president goes on TV to demonstrate his credit card in action at a department store, but what isn't seen is where the money comes from, and what it means in terms of national security and eventual economic servitude, as a consumer of all things.
The cost of domestic manufacturing involves one obvious factor---- higher prices--- and a hidden one--- a higher standard of living and security for future generations. My mother never worked except at home. We had no cell phones, cable TV, Malasian furniture, we wore $4.00 Keds sneakers, our bicycles weighed a ton, and the doctor came to our house. Sound familiar?
In today's dollars, a skilsaw cost $250.00 in 1973. Today, thanks to foreign competition, primarily from China, a skilsaw costs $100.00. Yet, I don't remember hard times. These are hard times, with a 100k family income and the baby still goes to daycare. Not because it's necessary, but because we've lost our way. Or they have. I hide up here in the woods and watch as it creeps in. God forbid the stock market should crash.

Alan

[longliner45]

alan perhaps I read you wrong ,,you seem ok,,,,,,,,were gonna have a lot of fun here,,,,,longliner

[alan white]

Glad to hear it.

A.

[charmc]

nor do I imply there isn't a far worse fate available to those who toil in third world countries.

Frankly, Charlie, I find no disagreement with what you've written, except as noted. I would suggest a humanistic/environmental industry standard which, like other stamps of approval, such as UL tags, clearly states that a manufacturer verifyably ascribes to a strict standard involving worker treatment, pollution reduction, and further, uses no vendors who are not up to the same standards.
Let it be an elective standard, and the consumer can decide. Hopefully, it would catch on, and I for one would pay more for the product. Alan

Alan,

Sorry I took a while to get back to you. Pretty busy with work stuff, and I wanted to give your comments some thought.

I still maintain that many Third World governments, especially India, continue to both tolerate and encourage the abuse of their own people. There are, as Longliner points out repeatedly, greedy rich bastards all over the world who exploit their workers. In India and other places, the exploitation of the workers is actually encouraged by those governments. I believe that is an atrocity, the very opposite of what government's role is supposed to be. You have said you believe it is only a matter of degree. I don't accept that for I believe it too easily can lead to minimizing the problem because, "it's just a matter of degree... and it's so far away, etc." I'm not accussing you of thinking that, Alan, but I am saying is is a danger inherent in your believing it's just a matter of degree.

I said earlier I believed your intentions were good, and you've proven that with all you've said since. And please don't think I don't realize that there are abuses here as well. Yes, there has been resistance on the part of corporations to taking remedial action early in the process of learning about negative effects of products. My point is that, as evidence accumulated about harmful effects, our government has moved to legislate change. Sometimes in the vanguard, sometimes much too slowly, but eventually moving to do the right thing.

For the record, while I think global outsourcing of manufacturing is inevitable (it happend in the 18th and 19th centuries, when US trade expanded because goods could be made more efficiently here rather than in Europe), I believe also that too many corporate top executives lack vision, and are focusing on short term profits at the expense of long term planning and investment to find new ways to add value and thus to create new jobs. While a few industries and companies are focused on finding new problems and new ways to solve old ones, most are taking the easy way out by cutting costs.

Alan, I disagree with some of what you've said, but I respect your thinking, and, yes, we do agree on many things.

Good to have you around.

Charlie

[Frosty]

2 Friends of mine recently orderd 2 Royal enfield motorcycles from Chinni India.

They intended riding them bacK to Malaysia through Burma. The bikes were not ready due to a major engine component manufacturer being on strike.

The decided not to stay in India for another two weeks.

One of my friends had been warned that India will be a shock to him. He told me that he could not possible have been prepaired for what he saw.

Polution in the streets beyong description, human feaces all over the pavment along with people doing it right there and then. Dogs rolling in it.

Distorted beggers--usually by their parents at birth, children constanty following the with twisted limbs. Poverty beyond imagination

As they did a small bit of sight seeing it was evident that there was no reason in tolerating such conditions and returned to Malyasia untill the bikes were ready.

Apparantly they saw an old lady sleeping in the street, every day she was there untill they realised that her arms were in exactly the same position --she was dead.

At night the streets were full of sleepers.

As they left they read in an Indian Magazine that Chinni hade been voted the second cleanest city in India.

Any body want to sell up and move the family there?

[alan white]

Those Enfields are really nice looking bikes. I would imagine they are also not well put together, which is unfortunate, because I like the genuine retro-ness.
They stock and sell them here in Maine, and I've looked them over.
I'm getting the feeling they may be about as relaiable as fifties British bikes---- which is to say you can know where they're parked in the driveway even when they're not there, and with a little more effort, you could find out where they went too. I've owned three Triumphs, so I know.
Yeah, Jack. India sounds pretty horrible. How to solve it?

A.

[Frosty]

I believe they give you some spares before you drive away. Apparantly a clutch cable is one of them.

To make matters worse the bikes they are having are completely new engines --all ally I am told. Engines 1 and 2 is theres !!!!!

Mmmm ide rather have numbers 40 or 50

Sounds like they are pretty well much just like the originals as far as reliability is concerened.

I had been away and had just missed the trip ,---but if they make it I shall get some guys together and do it myself.

[StianM]

I rather see them manufacture things in India than China for personal reasons.

There is no real benefitt in producing in anny off them. India is low qualety crap. China is uneficiant and nothing is economical to produce there and the only reason they make money by moving there is that they are heavely founded by the goverment. Atleast that is what I heard.

[sigurd]

good honey and chocolate in the w. ghats, good cheap lightweight stainless cooking pots and kashmere wool stuff. Himalaya also have a rep for making some of the world's finest hashish.

Kerala: Still using heavy dugouts and "not-dugouts" (logs lashed together into monos and ketturmarans - is malayalam the language from where catamaran comes?) for fishing. sloooow boats. some sailing with lateen, many paddling with a split bamboo. plywood is 600Rs for a 8'x4' 3mm. there are long tall skinny outboard ~25' ply boats covered with 3-5mm of something that might've been glass mat but I'm told it is not but "bly-ver" or something - for fishing with kerosen light about a mile off shore. I think they use diesel or kerosene in the petrol for lube, is this workable? Smells bad. There are boats made by sewing together planks edge on edge with coir (coconut fiber) rope, which is also laid like a sausage on the inside of the seam, under the x stitch. This, and the wood, is impregnated with cashew oil I am told, and another told me there was rice flour in the oil.
such are ~30' row boats made, with upturned, tall bows - like the viking ships but more freeboard, fatter lower down and vertical sides and much heavier and round not so V'd ends - and backwater sailing and paddling canoes. I was told an old but useable canoe like this was 10k Rs (sounds a lot to me), a motor ricksha (yellow 3wheel taxi) was possible to get for 5k, also old but useable.
Within a class of boat and within an area the boats were very similar.

Enfields make a pleasant sound when they are able to. I don't think many indians use them, cheap honda and suzuki are available.

[charmc]

Here's something about the India gov't's concern for its citizens:

http://thecorner.typepad.com/bc/2007/04/nicholas_d_kris.html

[masalai]

Frosty, "Woodies restaurants" are vegetarian (mainly because to not be would exclude the majority of the population) and can be found in many major towns, producing good food. - Don't buy bottled water from street vendors - it is probably not much different from any nearby water source.

I am interested in one of the 3? "French" Pondicherry excisions, but 'lovely lady' seems to want to stay, based in Australia.... It is a significant advantage to have a non-resident Indian guide :D.

Another area I like is the Kerela coast & up, to just beyond Goa - lovely lady comes from Nagercoil.

Put an RO watermaker in your boat!

[Frosty]

Booked for 5th of Feb. Phoned Royal Enfield just today actually, he said I am talking to the right man??? He can do anything for me. Whatever I want!!!

Could be useful. He has all the bikes in the showroom and I can of course try any of them , he can register it in my name in 3 days tops.

Ok no water from the street ,--knew that anyway and eat at 'woodies' What no Mc donalds,--it may taste like shit (i like it actually) but you wont get sick on a Mc sausage.

"put an RO water maker on the boat" yeah Ok!!!!!!!!!!

[masalai]

Hava a safe, profitable and enjoyable trip, Oh venerable "cold" (Frosty) one.

Beer should be OK to drink - The alcohol should kill all nasty bugs? - or at least preserve them for later.:D

[Frosty]

I think the penny has just dropped. Do you think I am going on the boat? is that why you suggested a water maker?

Oh no no no no no I am going on a 330 ,--its not mine,-- it belongs to Malaysian air.

[masalai]

No I know you are flying... Byt the voyage would do you good. :D:D for rik :P

[Ari]

Booked for 5th of Feb. Phoned Royal Enfield just today actually, he said I am talking to the right man??? He can do anything for me. Whatever I want!!!

Try him for the Enfield with the 'Swiss touch'. A private builder from Swiss had build/rebuild these Indian make Enfield for export to Sweden. It started somewhere in the nineties. They have an agent in Malaysia but had closed shop due to not enough sale.There is still a few working British make machine like Triumph Tiger 100,Triumph Tiger cub (250cc) AJS,Norton on Malaysian road, normally only enthusiast keep and run these machine. I prefer a Kawasaki Ninja though. Kerala is real nice place.