Opening the belly of the Beast

[Deeman]

Questions from a newbie fileting a whale. A 26 year old 22' Browning Aerocraft. I really enjoy the words of wisdom from all of you and I have learned alot just reading all the post for the last 3 years. However, I did not see any mention of my concerns regarding these..any input would be appreciated.

1. Can I just replace part of the rotten stringers?
2. I have read about spacing under the the stringer. Why do that?

Pictures:
Opening the belly of the beast and removing the flesh.
pic 1 (http://www.eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0310.jpg)
pic 2 (http://www.eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0312.jpg)
"Cutting the floor forward untill I reach good wood".... I may have to cut into the neighbors boat for that.

I have a multitude of fine color, from white to amber and moldy black.
Color of hull layup is light and dark in places, Why? is it Delaminated?
pic 3 (http://www.eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0299.jpg)
pic 4 (http://www.eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0296.jpg)

Browning Boat Mfg. was a bit skimpy on the foam fill..lotsa voids. Trapping water. I have 1000lb. of wet foam.
pic 5 (http://www.eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0307.jpg)
pic 6 (http://www.eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0308.jpg)

Checking cracks on transom..dangerous?
pic 7 (http://www.eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0298a.jpg)

Save the dry foam and fish finder and junk the rest of my boat?
Eric H

[Grant Nelson]

Wow, is there any un-rotting wood in there - I dont have experience with foam filling in wooden boats, but it seems like a real good way to trap moisture, and keep it warm, so that rot can grow... if it provides enough little spaces (like you show) to also provide oxygen... All the colors you see are probably different kinds of mold and rot. The black is probably the bad one - poke it to see if its soft under (wait! is there a fiberglass layer over the wood? Then be sure to plug the hole after you are done - if there is no real rot.). From the pics, it does not look too bad, and so if you can get to the wood, maybe some rot killer, and dryrot replacer will be what you need - if the rot does not go under structural parts where it might have affected the strength of the fastenings..
See what other say, but I would take the foam all out, and go for keeping it as dry as possible (ventilation) - heck, if you ever needed the foam to keep it afloat, its probably not worth saving anyways, so let it sink...
The space under the stringers is probably mainly to let water (condensation, etc.) not get trapped and form rot - but the foam kind of defeated that logic... stringers usuall sit ontop of the frams anyways, they are there for strength, so be sure they are good, and run the length of the boat - your engine beds too if possible (oh, wait, this is probably an outboard...). check also the strength of anything holding your shaft and rudder....
Are the cracks in the stern bad? I can not tell if they are in the wood, or the fiberglass or what. In general, back there, where your outboard engine is creating all those forces in every direction, yes, I would say its worth looking into very seriously. If there is no rot - in the hull or transom, then perhaps a block connecting the stringers to the transom will work.. always seal all holes, and places where you place wood against wood...
So, that is the advice of someone who reads a lot, but only has fixed up a few boats way in the past... take it for what its worth..
Cheers,
Grant

[Deeman]

Hiya Grant, well she's a glass hull, and a 5.7 L I/O.. Now that I started removing all the foam I see NO way for any water to get to the bung hole to drain. it stayed trapped by the outer stringers. So the p.o. must have lugged all that (1000 lb.)
water around with him for quite some time. She probably did not plane well... And ofcourse since I just bought this boat, I found a ChrisCraft Stinger today and that's what I really wanted..aaaarrrgghhh.
Still hoping for more input on subject matter

[Tim B]

This is actually a new re-incarnation of an old problem....

My boat isn't as sound as I thought it was, do I sell / trash it or carefully re-build it?

There are a number of answers on this, but take it from someone who has done it the hard way (repair), it is expensive, stressful, fun and worth it. The first thing to do is to get the boat "Stable". The easiest way to do this is to remove everthing that's obviously rotten and photograph it as you do it. then either sit it on the trailer, or build a stand for it and put up a tempory shed over it (22' won't fit in a standard double garage).

The last thing you want is water getting in as you repair it.

When you've got all the rubbish out, then you are in a good position to start re-building the rotten parts that you stripped origenally. There are a few rules for this...
1) ALWAYS go back to clean, dry material, be it wood or GRP. (Use of a wire brush on a drill will help here)
2) ALWAYS use the same resin system. Polyester or Epoxy, don't mix them. (Some smartarse will point out that you can)
3) Do what you can to use the same type of laminate as the original. It's pretty unlikely that the laminate was wrong

Other things to bear in mind are...

1) Strip as much as you need to in order to get a good repair.
2) You shouldn't really need the foam, it's probably there for sound-deadening purposes. It might be worth checking with USCG to see if it's needed as reserve bouyancy (if so try to use inflatable bags).
3) Stringers should really extend to the transom (as if you were building a proper frame-and-stringer boat). They rarely seem to. I would certainly extend them aft and stiffen up the transom generally.
4) Also check the engine bearers, rot or delamination there would be a pain. (it is possible to lift the engine, repair them and re-seat it).

Good Luck, I hope this helps feel free to e-mail me if you need more help,

Tim B.

Tim@MarineDesign.tk

[Deeman]

Made some progress removing the wet foam
Posted some pictures without the smell... (http://eharder.com/Eric/Boat/)

[Richard Hillsid]

I would remove everything inside and do a re build.

[georgelewisray]

Assuming you do a rebuild:

Keep in mind that when you pull out old structure things can/will sag and twist. Make sure that you support the hull well and evenly and measure/eyeball for symmetry and fairness. IF not you may replace structure only to find that you have 'built-in' sag/twist/bumps/etc etc.

[Deeman]

AH the saga of "Opening the Belly of the Beast" continues....
Still In process with opening her up, I have discovered more strange things. One thing I discovered is that at 60 it's hard for this ol' fart to do much anything in this heat.
But the will to "get er done" and "done right" is prominant. BUT, I will never do another floor !!!
The young farts that are suppose to help have all disappeared. Funny how that happens with the young ones of today.http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif
:mad:

Below is a Pic of the main stringer and engine mount(s) stringer(s). both sides the same.
Pic 326 (http://eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0326a.jpg)
Arrow 2, points to an area that has no drain to the bilge on either side..is that normal? 3" of water stays trapped there.
Arrow 3, has the fibergalss pulled away from the stringer and has original foam between it and the lumber. Not my doing. great craftmansship.

Also the 1/2" pvc pipe that runs to the bilge under the engine is clear of debris since I ran a 18' gun brush type affair in it, from the drain hole in the transom.
However, as you can see from the pics 2 & 3 (below) there is standing water trapped in the compartment between the gas tank and cuddy. The foam was wet for the lower 8"
Pic 324 compartment 2 (http://eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0324.jpg)
Pic 327 Dry Bilge (http://eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0327.jpg)
Here's why.
The next pic has all the foam and water outta there..there are NO holes in the 1/2" PVC..should there be? I would think yes.
Pic 336a (http://eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0336a.jpg), Pic 338 (http://eharder.com/Eric/Boat/Aerocraft0338.jpg)
Else, (as now) the PVC pipe will only drain from the bow of the boat just under the cuddy well, to the rear. Doing nothing inbetween.
I would think that if this were a perferated piece of PVC, this boat would never have had it's foam/water retention problem.
Is my assumption correct?

I have not removed the tank yet, it's full, 90+ gallons of old gas. Don't quite know what to do with it or where to put it...suggestions?
I am sure there is no drain in that compartment either. The PVC pipe just runs underneath the tank in a solid hole free piece.

Another strange thing is the main stringers do not have any weep holes leading to the bilge either.
I would think one hole or relief should be close to the transom, so that any water can drain to the bilge......Correct?

Comments Please.

Eric H, old, tired, hot, wet and full of FB.
work in progress (http://eharder.com/Eric/Boat)

[Grant Nelson]

Regarding the PCV pipe, I am guessing that at rest the boats hull loq point is at the bow, and the idea is that anywater trapped there will be drained to the transom drain hole when pulled out on a trailer (or planning, if you dare remove the plug then ;-). Is there a bildge pump? Thats where water should be able to flow to. Thus a hole inbetween might just move the water to the wrong place location and leave it there - but am not sure. Maybe that line of thinging helps you out.
I would say, if you are not going to replace the foam, then the best bet is to just create holes under the stringers and any frames, so the water always drains to the center, and can drain to the 'low point'.

[Deeman]

Yes it does have a bilge pump albeit it was a very small unit located in the bilge under the engine. Draining all compartments to the lowest point was my thought also. I just can't believe the mfg would have built this boat this way. Perhaps the thinking was wherever the foam is it would displace the water 2 items cannot occupy the same space..wrong! Air pockets in the foam can hold water and will.
I am not going to take the floor up in the cuddy. the foam under there is dry. T.G. I have finally found some dry lumber and foam.

[SamSam]

Take out your tank and inspect it, you will probably need a new one. Sam

[Travism]

Great read here. I im in the midst of a similar rebuild. I too had a odd problem of the outboard sections of my stringers was totally waterlogged foam. No way for it to escape. Same as the bow.Enclosed water soaked foam. I was also wondering about adding drain holes leading to my motor well drain or running tube through the midsection locker to the drain.

My boat is not nearly as larger as yours (16ft invader with OB) Every piece of wood was rotten and soaked. The floor was so rotten it had turned to dirt and had a tree growing in it. I am just getting ready to replace stringers and transom then put the floor back in. With 104 degree weather it has dired out well. But unfortunately for me all the wood had to go beyond repair.

[Deeman]

Hey Trav I would keep that tree handy, It's roots may help suck up some water.
:-) Sorry, i just had to say that.
I'm cutting in limber holes or running 1/2" pvc pipe from each isolated compartment and the deck to the bilge. My stringer boards are at least 1/2" above the hull and tabbed in pretty good. I just can't imagine why the mfg. did not leave a bit of space (between tabs) to let any water run to the next lower level and into the bilge. Had they done that, my boat would still be in fine shape and usable today! It's no wonder Browning Boats (Aerocraft) went belly up, With cheap design and poor workmanship they couldn't survive.

100+ Degree heat is right, I can't get anything done. I have a breathing problem and it kills me just climbing aboard in this heat.

Eric H
Rebuild in Process (http://eharder.com/Eric/Boat/)

[alex fletcher]

Limber hole are very important in hull design great care is taken in the design stage to ensure the limber holes are placed correctly so that any water can drain to the removal point when the boat is at rest or in motion you will need to put a lot of thought in to their placement other wise history will repeat its self
Alex

[KFB]

I have to compliment you on your attitude and on the completeness with which you are documenting this project. In response to some of the questions in your posts:

1. The hairline cracks in the transom area (pic from your first post) are likely just in the gel coat that was applied to produce a finished apperance to the mechanical area. This type crack is likely to be found in other spots on a boat this age, and are not structural. You've got better things to worry about.
2. The multitude of colors in your fiberglass is somewhat more worrisome. The factory resin used to lay up your hull had a red dye in the catalyst that results in the dark red/moroon color you see. The more yellow FRP looks to be resin with no dye used on glass that was applied afer the hull was cured. In other words, it looks like the MFG layed up the hull with dyed resin, and later "taped" in the structural members using a resin with a clear catalyst. The white portions and black portions of the FRP are a concern. The black is likely rot and usually if you dig around on it, there's little resin left and the black is moldy fiberglass material. Any fiberglass that is frayed, wet, black, or has pockets under it needs to be ground down to good material, and patched. I don't know what the white color is the result of - could be many things, does it feel the same as the red colored glass? Does the white color come off when scrubbed? Hate to say it, but your photos show a boat that wasn't very well designed structurally - I'm sure that's not news to you at this point.
3. Get rid of that foam! It only serves to hide areas that shouldn't be hidden, and cause way more problems than it solves. I work for an organization that is producing 26ft FRP boats that cost over $100k, and guess how much foam we but in the boats...zero! Foam is a cheap way to hide poor construction and market "unsinkable" boats. You don't need to fill your hull with foam, and it's in your way.

There is some good advice above, especially from Tim B, and the caution regarding keeping the hull form true during the rebuilding of the structure. It's important to get this boat clear of entrapped water. Anywhere water is trapped it will freeze in the winter, expand, and cause all sorts of problems. Always, always, always seal any wood that your intending to put back into this boat with resin after it's shaped and before it's installed. If you're going to use any plywood, it really needs to be marine grade, which is expensive. you've got lots of work ahead, but it will be nice to have real ownership of this boat when its done!

[Deeman]

Thanks for the kuddo's and advice KFB. After closer scrutiny at those starburst cracks, they are just in the paint. It is only prevelent inside where there is no gel coat. The mfg. lobbed that paint on pretty thick, probably to seal and hide their fine craftsmanship. On the "poor design" of the Browning/Aerocraft.. My thoughts exactly...had I only known prior to purchase... as with the other rebuild boats on this forum, she'll be better then "new".
At one point I was going to salvage all the mechanicals and just buy another (used and bigger) boat. I was originally looking at 26 foot cuddy's. But then I could be buying the same problems a few feet longer. This one came up a bunch cheaper and I fell for it. I am committed now, epoxy, cloth, foam, lumber paint, etc. etc. and a few gallons of sweat.
One reason I am pictorially documenting everything is: I want the next owner (and myself) to know what we've got and feel secure about this boat, if and when I sell it. At my age, the value of life and good times has greatly increased compared to the day when I was younger and daring..

The other reason. I have gained great insight and saved a bunch of money and possible some grief (in doing things wrong). So, I wanted to leave a little something to the next " Hi, new to the forum" lucky sailor with a new boat and a soggy bottom.
I gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from the fine folks, like yourself, on this forum. My hat is off to ALL of you for sharing your knowledge and expertise and especially to those that "been there done that".
Eric H
No progress today..crap weather!

[Deeman]

After two bouts with a scalpel wielding surgeon at the local hospital, removing moldy stringer splinters, I'm done rebuilding. My bride (checkbook captain) said I was finished with that project. "Park it and sell" she commanded. Weakened from medication and not willing to become subject of spouse abuse, I complied.
:rolleyes:
Trying to save a few bucks is not always the best thing one can do. I was shopping for a 80's cuddy for the past two years, then came across this hapless craft (http://eharder.com/Eric/Boat/) in need of repair, for a few pocket dubloons. I just couldn't resist the temptation to save some gold and restore it myself.
Labor intensive dirty, ichy work, spent the summer in the driveway, instead of the water and a few $K's on medical bills. Learned alot, thanks to you all on this forum. My hat is off to you that finish a total restoration. 20 years ago I would not have quit on a project like this. I prefer to enjoy life cruising & fishing on a boat, instead of working on it. Sooooooooo..
I bit the cash bullet. Bought a new Eagle alum trailer (http://eharder.com/Eric/Nova II/eagle7s.jpg) and a bone dry, turnkey sea-worthy 26' Wellcraft Nova II (http://eharder.com/Eric/Nova%20II/nova-10.jpg), just in time for winterizing. :mad:
End of story.

Thank you all for the help.
Eric H

[Grant Nelson]

Oh WOW, what a story... I remember the begining, and to see how it ended... your website should be standard reference for anyone thinking of rebuilding a fiberglass/wood boat (but dont let their wives see it).. glad you got what you wnated in the end, and sorry about the elbow, etc. Have fun on the water next year!
Grant

[ted655]

Why are you doimg this? Has it been in the family for years? Are you stuck on am island? Do you have ABSOLUTELY nothing slse to do?
Junk the boat!! Production run fiberglass boats are a dime a dozen. Strip the machinery off the hull & find another boat.
IF (and it won't) everything goes well in this "project", you still end up with a OLD BOAT of no value. If it has no personel ties to you AND it isn't a boat anybody else is collecting then it is money down a rat hole. By the pics I can see this was a boat ill designed and built to start with. Nothing you can do to change that. Why not put ypur time, energy and moneys into a real head turner if you want a restore project not a dog from the day it was molded.
The gas you burned towing this boat home is as deep as you need to get in it. A few bucks on her & you could have had some laughs, but she is too far gone and not worth the effort.

[Grant Nelson]

hellooooooooo ted655, did you read Erics last post? I think not. He did just what you suggest. But, unlike you, who seems to think he is an idot, I find his attempt a bit heroic....

[KnottyBuoyz]

Well done Eric H. Thanks for sharing your story. Nothing ventured, nothing gained right? Personally I don't think it was a foregone conclusion the project was doomed. I've been watching others do it as we speak.

http://209.190.4.227/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11294

You've obviously made the decision with a lot of thought and pain! Congratulations on the Wellcraft. Hope you enjoy it.

Rick

[stevel]

My first project boat went to the landfill in pieces. I bought a house and it just didn't make sense to put that much time into a boat that needed that much done to it before I would ever be able to use it. I can't live without a project, so I compromised and bought a solid, well built, running boat that I could do customization projects on in the off season. Like you, Eric, I learned a lot from the first boat, even though I never got it into the water. Now I get to play on my boat both in the water and in the yard.

[ted655]

:) Nobody that likes boats is an idiot. Given enough time & mony, anything can be rebuilt. It was doable, but not practicle. "It is never too late to stop losing money" It was a bad investment. We've all made them. I always looked at it as paying tuision for the school of experience.
I didn't agree that he should'nt buy another boat because it might be a lemon also. That's where that "learning" kicks in and you inspect (knowing better now), what to look for.
It was just "tough love", sorry if it was too blunt.:D

[Deeman]

I have always been a project/re-builder of sorts. I made a good living rebuilding industrial machinery. Custom car, hotrodder since the 60's and did quite a bit of home remodeling. So, taking in a lost stray for a project was my normal M.O.
You're all correct. It was a bad judgement call from the start. I hope my story will save the next "newbie" a lot of grief and money. It is quite the job restoring an old tub. I indeed have learned a lot, and I suppose that part was worth it.
If your goal is to enjoy a "good boat", buy one. If your need is to be creatively challenged and you have the time, physical and financial wherewith all, get a project tub. If nothing else, you'll learn something about boats and yourself.
There is pride in accomplishment when any project is completed. But, there comes a time in everyone's life that reality must overide the ego in regards to tackling a project. I didn't realize I was that old....
Restoring an old boat is agonizing, labor intensive, time consuming, expensive and can be painful. For those of you following this thread and plan to undertake a boat project, take the advice of Grant Nelson, KnottyBuoyz, stevel, and especially ted655 and the others into very careful consideration, first.
Thanks again mates, hope to meet all of you on the water some time. I really enjoy this forum and will plug in my $.02's worth.
Eric H.
New boat, old school, go fast walleye killer...
(http://eharder.com/Eric/Nova%20II/nova_0533a.jpg)If you're young and foolish, you're young and foolish. If you're old and foolish, you didn't learn anything.

[SamSam]

Here's part of a post I made a few years ago on another forum.
'The whole process of replacing a transom in
fiberglass is NOT a romantic exercise in nautical craftiness but is
more akin to what went on in that Abu Grub prison, probably without
the dogs and assholes but you're still going to be in numerous,
uncomfortable positions and covered in shit.'
Any tendency to try and dissuade people from 'project' boats or 'too good a deal to pass up' boats generally brings on the pessimism police who accuse you of being a party pooper and a general drag on society and if you don't have anything good to say, please STFU. I figure pointing out the negatives can be a very positive thing and unrealisticly stressing the positives can be a negative thing. There are many threads around that start like this one. Some slog along for years and get accomplished (at least they get in the water and you never hear about the next problems they might have), but most threads are never concluded one way or another so I suspect they don't get finished. This one seems to me to be as much or more valuable than a 'successfull' one, but only because Eric was big enough to come back with 'the rest of the story'. Eric, I think you should reward yourself(s) by taking your new boat on a winter vacation to a warm climate and getting some practice for next summer. Don't forget the glasses.:cool: Sam

[Travism]

Sorry to hear how it ended. Once you get in to it you have to ask yourself if you are nuts. Well I started my project this summer and it is now finished and in the water going fishing this weekend. Although not as large a project as yours, mine was rotten to the core. Everything had to come out. I had no experience but the Price was right $49 and it came with trailer and Roller bunks. 16 foot. Took it all down to hull replaced all wood even transom. itched like hell for a month and dang that marine Pl;y is expensive. Spent about 800 in all the supplies and now have a decent boat that will last for years. Could I have gotten something for what I spent? Probably! But what a sense of accomplishment. I was not even looking for a boat, knew nothing about them except the float and sink. Now I have rebuilt one and am enjoying it very much. Thanks to forms such as this an much research on the web. Sorry to see your story end the way it did. But chock one up for the experience bad good it all helps.

[Deeman]

Travism, I salute you, my friend. I'm glad it worked out for you. More then accomplishment, you KNOW what's under your butt...most don't. And you can wave at them as you go cruise by, safe and dry....

[hansp77]

Nicely said Travism.
My (first) boat was an adventure too.
Yes it almost killed me, and my girlfreind,,
and yes I think I must have come pretty close to reaching an epoxy toxicity state (not to mention soaking and breathing in a whole lot of other stuff).
Yes we spent a $h!t load more money than we wanted to or than we thought we would have to.
And yes, though we are mostly done, it does feel like the job will never end.
Though with initial purchase price plus that of the costs of materials we got the boat for less than half the price (of the only other Seahorse I can find for sale)- if you count the amount of time we, our freinds and families put in (even at below award rates), then financially it could not have been worthwhile...

but,
now we have a beautifull 30 ft sail boat, a boat that two full time students like us could not have afforded otherwise, a boat that we know from the ground up, that we can be proud to call our own and that one day hopefully when we sell her we can get some small financial reward for our efforts, probably to just invest into the new project...

Also, we saved a lovely little (Dutch) girl in need of some care- and we feel pretty good about that.

Deeman, I am sorry the project didn't come through. We reached a few points where giving it up was looking like the only possibility. If we had the ability to buy another instead, then it may not have turned out this way.
Nonetheless, giving up on a project and dream is not a easy decision to make.
It really does seem like you have made the right decision.
Have fun on the water.

Hans.

[roadking666]

I have an old 1984 Larsom that I am in the process of putting in a new floor and was trying to remove the gas tank. Well, I tried to siphon it out via the fuel pick up tube and was unable to, so I siphoned the gas out through the fill neck. I pulled the tank out today and discorvered the fuel pick up fitting I could not blow into it or creat a vacuum. Is this s special fitting? I know it works because I had the boat running hours before I tried siphoning the gass out. Also, should I put an in line fuel filter in it and remove the one that is directly on or part of the fuel pump? thanks

[Deeman]

I too had a hard time syphoning the gas out. Had a full tank, 70 gals. I tried blowing compressed air into the filler line and hoping to get it to start flowing out of the vent hose..Nope! All three of the connections on my tank have a sharp 90 degree bend, blocking the syphon hose from going into the tank. I removed the sending unit ran a hose into the hole and doing it the old fashion way. Fuel filters..as long as you carry a spare and know where it is. On my cars, they almost always seem to clog at the most inoppertune moment. Disposing of the old fuel was easy..told neighbors I had "free gas" ..... everyone wanted to help!
Eric H