Design thoughts on a 9" wooden Sailboat [Archive]

JohnBloch

06-12-2006, 06:51 PM

Hello... I am trying to Design and build a 9" Sailboat...

I know some of the basics of sailing, and basics of boat parts.... but... Im not quite sure how this is all going to work out...

First, My Sketches....

http://www.geocities.com/johnblochd/Sailboat1.jpg

one square= half foot

I have NO CLUE wether or not these are on par with anything at all... I just threw something out there...

You think I should Have 3 chines like that? or 2? and make it a flat bottom for an easyer build?

I wanted the Transom to have a spot for a rudder and a 2 horse outboard (and no, its not that big... and Im not ashamed of having one on their either... like some sailors i know...)

and an explination for wideness...

well... not really any... but it would be nice to be able to fit two people in it... comforatbly...

How do you think the wide design will effect speed/stability?

Should I have the Centerboard somewhere else? or is it in a good spot?

also, I have the mast in 2 different spots on the profile drawing... which do you think is better? farther up in the bow? or farther back?

Im basically looking for a quick and stable little boat for two....

also... Im going to need A LOT of help learning to build it... I know i need marine grade plywood (or at least, thats what Im going to use) and the hard part is making the spine, or ribs...

but other than that... I know nothing...

thanks for all your help...

PS... If this thread needs to be moved, please inform me...

Thanks!!!

lewisboats

06-12-2006, 08:07 PM

My advice is to put your design on hold and get a book or two on designing principals.

My recommendations are:
Understanding Boat Design by Ted Brewer
Preliminary Design of Boats and Ships by Cyrus Hamlin
Skene's Elements of Yacht Design (the one by Francis S. Kinney)

I know you aren't interested in building a yacht but the same principals apply.

you will also need to learn about building with plywood or whichever method you choose to build it.

Asking a forum to teach you enough to design and build a safe and seaworthy boat is stretching it a bit.

models are a good way to test principals and a whole lot cheaper than building even one full sized boat. Try using a free design software like Hulls or Carene or even FreeShip (a bit complicated but more complete than the others). These limit you to hulls that are developable and give feedback on your design in terms of #s (go back to the books to interpret these #s).

Finally...Look at all the designs that would be similar to your design as far as length and overall use and compare them to your design. I think you will find that yours needs a bit of massaging and fine tuning (a slight understatement).

Steve

nero

06-12-2006, 09:14 PM

You are in luck! My boat in progress is only 2.5 hours from your house. Just think of all the good experience you could get helping me to bond strips, lay glass, and other fun boat building stuff.

... I suppose you already read Tom Sawyer?

JohnBloch

06-13-2006, 08:41 AM

um... yeah... but seriously, I forgot it allready....

I didnt much enjoy it... All i remember is boys on an Island, then in some boats, and then they got lost...

thats it...

but no comments on my design?

what does everyone think?

ps. Im planning on getting a book or maybe even buy some plans... because I have no clue how i would get this design off paper... and plans are full size right? or no? oh who cares...

well anyway.... thanks for what you gave me... but what do you actually think?

byankee

06-13-2006, 10:08 AM

First of all, you better be talking about mighty small people if you want to fit two of them in an 9" (nine inch ) dinghy ;)

I'm no expert on hull design, so I will not comment on your hull. I will suggest that you look at other existing designs in the same size to get some idea about hull shape, layout, etc. Who knows - you may find a design that you like and you'll save yourself a lot of headaches by buying the plans.

One thing you will see is that most boats in this size range are prams - they do not have a pointy bow. This maximizes the capacity of the boat for the given length, so you can carry a reasonable load (i.e. two adults) in a very small craft.

Anyway, here are a few links to check out:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Highup13.htm (see the Highlander 9)

http://boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=507

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400-057 (9' 6" Nutshell pram) this is a highly regarded boat that has been built by many beginners. Note that there is also of "how to" information available to guide you through the building process- definitly worth careful consideration

http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=V10

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Dinks/FinkelDink.html

http://www.clcboats.com/boats/passagemakerdinghy.php This one's 11 feet long, but comes apart and "nests" to take up much less space for storage or transport.

DanishBagger

06-13-2006, 11:52 AM

Plans aren't necessarily "full size" Heck - when I began builidng my small bagger, all I had was some numbers, taken from the center line and the base line. So, no, "plans" aren't necessarily "full size".

Gees, I feel like a party pooper today. feel free to give me a bad rep, I think I have it coming, lol.

lewisboats

06-13-2006, 02:04 PM

JohnBloch

06-13-2006, 06:21 PM

OK, to put it bluntly...I think it is WAY too short for the width, you don't know the displacement, you need to figure out the CLR, CE, D/L ratio, L/B ratio... When you have these worked out, you will know if the design is viable. Right now the length beam/ratio (L/B) is 1.5:1. I have yet to see a design that is less than about 2:1. Your design water line shows a very heavy displacement in relation to the length (D/L) so it would take a lot of sail to move it in light winds. The deep Vee bottom won't give much stability for such a small hull so it will be tender despite the huge beam. With a 6' beam it will even be a bit difficult to row. The daggerboard appears to be too large and you can't determine size and location until you determine what kind and size of rig the boat will use. You will need to determine the Center of Effort (CE) of the sail in order to place the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR) and determine it's size. Your Maximum Beam is forward of the DWL mid point and this will be detrimental to any kind of speed, and could possibly be detrimental to helm balance too.

So...all in all I think you should go with my original suggestions and bone up a bit on designing and browse the web for designs in the same range as yours and see what others have done and what works

Steve

hokay...

Even though my design was just ripped apart, Im quite happy you did it... THAT^ was what I was looking for guys, and thanks...

I understood about the 2:1 thing width...

Ive seen some sunfish that were pretty wide, but now that I recall, It wasnt that bad in relation to length...

Im pretty sure I get what you said about the D/L ratio... you meant mine was too big right? Or if not, what did you mean?

and you meant that my max beam was to far forward for it to be a racing machiene...

thanks for the help!

Ive been messing with it allready, Ill try and get a better design up soon!

lewisboats

06-14-2006, 04:03 AM

Sorry to put it quite so harshly, but I think you asked what we thought about 4 times so I had to tell you.
The D/L ratio is calculated by dividing the displacement of the hull (in long tons{2240lbs}) by (.01 x the waterline length) cubed or Dl/(.01xLwL)^3

Your sketch shows a waterline of about 7 ft so (.01 x 7)^3 would be .000343

If your boat displaced .2 tons with 2 people (just under 450 lbs) your D/L ratio would be .2/.000343 or 583.xx. Anything over 350 is considered heavy displacement so yours would be pushing Super heavy. Getting 2 people into a 9 ft sailboat is tricky...It usually isn't done on a boat with a pointy front end. The way around this is to design a longer boat and chop the front off...in other words...A pram style boat. Here you can get near the same performance of the longer boat in a shorter format. With an 8 ft waterline the same displacement gives you a D/L of 390. Not a racer but on the lower end of heavy displacement rather than pushing the ceiling. Most pointed boats don't start looking at 2 people until they grow to about 11-12 ft.

Steve

JohnBloch

06-14-2006, 10:42 AM

Ok...

hmm...

so your saying my boat didnt cut to deep, It would just be way to heavy with two people in it, and it would sit real low in the water.. therefore being exeptionally good if you dont want to move at all...

Ive been thinking about it... And I decided to screw the whole 2 man Idea... But In doing so I would like to cut the length down a little... Is 7 feet two small for a one manner? Ive got some different figures drawn up in a 7 foot length...

http://www.geocities.com/johnblochd/Sailboats.jpg

the profile view was drawn in an attempt to copy another design Ive seen..

and Im wondering wether i should go with 2 chines for simplicity or 3 for speed... or wether or not it will make much of a difference...

thanks for telling me whats up... I really appreciate it... and it wasnt harsh... it was informative!!!

frosh

06-15-2006, 01:53 AM

Hi John, you have posted on another thread by Daywalker who is trying to do the same as you, but a little larger. Again he has no clue just like you.
Don't take this as an insult, we all have to start somewhere. I strongly advise that you do NOT build your own design but get a kit or at least plans for a very simple pram dinghy, or flat bottom skiff. Also consider going a little bigger than 9 feet if you want to sail with a second person. See my posting in that thread as well and maybe look up CLC boats for excellent simple designs and kits. :)

nero

06-15-2006, 08:21 AM

Just to show you what your first sketch looks like in 3D. Probably nothing like you dream about. Certainly not worth trying to build.

Not to be cruel. I used to sketch the views somewhat like yours (of multihulls) 20 years ago. Then I made a model of one and found that the sketches did not look like the resulting model. It is an educational process. Now days, it is a lot faster to quit sketching and learn how to model in 3D.

lewisboats

06-15-2006, 08:52 AM

I tried the file and Quicktime didn't understand it, same for RealPlayer. Is it a movie or something else?

Steve

lewisboats

06-15-2006, 09:27 AM

I think my point was that unless you go pram-ish, 9 foot would be the SMALLEST I would consider for a SINGLE person if you intend to put a sail on it. Longer is better, not shorter. A 7 ft boat would only have a 6 ft or less waterline (as drawn). This translates to a max speed of 1.2 x 6^.5 or around 3 kts. Careful, knowledgeable and skillful designing and sheer luck MIGHT get you another .5 kt. You would only be able to sail it in close to mill pond conditions, so you could only expect about 60% of that speed before you capsize or otherwise give yourself a bath...so that is about 1.8 kts or about 2 mph. You will have very little stability...even getting in will be tricky. If you give the sides enough freeboard to be somewhat safe it will present quite a broadside to the wind (in relation to the amount of boat in the water) and will be pushed around (windage). Lowering the freeboard to make the boat look decent and reducing the windage will increase the likelyhood of swamping when you sneeze.

Here is my best effort at your 7 ft skiff...displacement is 175 lbs and the hull and rigging would run about 40 lbs. This is a kid's boat or a rowboat, but not an adult's sailboat. I advise 10 ft minimum, beam about 4 ft, single chine, flat bottom...OR a pram of at least 8 ft, designed for sailing. Note that L/B ratio is about 2:1, D/L ratio is 365...quite the pig but within tolerable limits. A curious thing is that the smaller the boat the looser the tolerances on the #s...to a point.

Steve

PS: The design below is a tub... but any narrower and it isn't worth drawing. I would consider building this for an 8 or 9 year old to learn to sail with...on a shallow farm pond. It would go together cheap and burn well when the kid out grew it.

nero

06-15-2006, 01:14 PM

It is a quicktime movie showing a 3D model spinning around once. I just downloaded the file, double clicked the .sit and the double clicked the .mov file. It works fine. Maybe a mac only format? I will do some checking into it, since I would like to use this feature of TouchCad for other things.

Steve your design looks like a boat!

frosh

06-15-2006, 05:14 PM

John, listen carefully to the advice! You are not it this time capable of understanding the elementary hydrodynamics or the mechanics of sailing. ( This comes through loud and clear on your content of your threads). If you are keen to learn, it will come soon enough.
Therefore don't waste your time and money building something you have designed this time around. GET A KIT OR AT LEAST SOME PLANS FOR A VERY SIMPLE SAIL BOAT. :idea:
Many of us have built and designed more than a dozen boats. You will get your chance! You will be far wiser after you have built something that you know in advance will work, and done some sailing on her. :)

nero

06-15-2006, 09:49 PM

Talked to tech support may have to do with the version of quicktime.
This one is compiled under JPEG4 to a quicktime movie. Added a water surface. This is a down and dirty 3 minutes to make version.

lewisboats

06-15-2006, 10:12 PM

Sorry...No go on this one either:(

Steve

nero

06-16-2006, 07:38 AM

Can anyone else with a PC run these quicktime movies? Please send me a PM if you can. Do not want to highjack this thread. thanks

DanishBagger

06-16-2006, 08:02 AM

Make the extension ".mpg" or ".mpeg" - then it ought to be possible to view it on a pc.

nero

06-16-2006, 05:08 PM

This one is compiled with sorensen3 to quicktime. If it doesn't work I'll post some tiffs.

JohnBloch

06-16-2006, 08:13 PM

This one is compiled with sorensen3 to quicktime. If it doesn't work I'll post some tiffs.

nope... didnt work...

Allright, Ill stop drawing... and start looking...

anyone have links to a plan thats about 9'?

One man mind you... (i decided if this one goes well, a 12 or 13'er could be an option for a 2 man quick sailer)

I would prefer something that can get going quick, but its not that imparitve...anything normal will work...

by the way, Im looking as well.. haha...

heres a couple Free plans ive found anyways (not sure if this is what were looking for, but i like a couple em anywhoo)

The Sea Flea: http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/SeaFlea

The Sea Mite: http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/SeaMite

Bannock ( 8ft pram): http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/Bannock

and
The Greafin 10 (Pram): http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=SailBoats/greafin10

those are the free designs ive found so far.... Ill look some other places... tell me what you think about those^

JohnBloch

06-16-2006, 08:38 PM

Curlew 9: http://www.clarkcraft.com/cgi-local/shop.pl?type=item&categ=019&item=1039182018&cart_id=026d1d86d8ff5cbf73cf6d0c8d30c34b

Packette 10: http://www.clarkcraft.com/cgi-local/shop.pl?type=item&categ=019&item=943113211&cart_id=026d1d86d8ff5cbf73cf6d0c8d30c34b

Goblin 10: http://www.clarkcraft.com/cgi-local/shop.pl?type=item&categ=019&item=1039265458&cart_id=026d1d86d8ff5cbf73cf6d0c8d30c34b

Either the lief 10 or the sea shell 10: http://www.shellboats.com/sbboats.html

thats all ive been able to find

lewisboats

06-16-2006, 10:34 PM

Like I said in the other similar thread...try a PDRacer. Plans are free and from all accounts they are a blast.

Steve

frosh

06-17-2006, 05:12 AM

Hi John, if want to build from plans don't bother with the free ones. (they are ancient designs). You dont get a decent easy to build design that will perform well this way. Be prepared to pay a few bucks and get a better boat plan. Depending on your weight, and if you want to ever take a passanger, will determine the best size for you. Around 10 ft. is really sort of minimum, or else it wont be stable enough, nor achieve any speed. Have a look at the Argie 10. Stitch and glue construction is really easy, watertight and produces a light hull fairly cheaply. It will sail OK for 1 or 2 people of average size. You can stick it on car roof racks easily as well. Good for learning the basics of boatbuilding and sailing. http://www.dixdesign.com/dinghies.htm :)

JohnBloch

06-17-2006, 12:35 PM

Like I said in the other similar thread...try a PDRacer. Plans are free and from all accounts they are a blast.

Steve

no offence, but i would much more prefer to build something that looks like a boat....

That argie 10 actually looks pretty nice... but 90 dollars for full size plans is going to suck...

do you think ill be able to do it without full size plans? or should we bank on them being neccisary?

ps... the last post wasnt free designs... you should check them out and tell me if you like them...

JohnBloch

06-17-2006, 11:49 PM

ok... heres the boat that I actually saw first, and made me want to build one... I think its called an "el toro"

http://www.sailingsource.com/eltoro/photos/ToroTanks/ToroTanks11.JPG

obviously a pram, and evidently they have regattas with them.... heres a link to the site: http://www.sailingsource.com/eltoro/

and with "full" plans being at 30 bucks, im not sure if i can complain...

please, somone leave your thoughts on this boat....

JohnBloch

06-17-2006, 11:58 PM

http://eltoroyra.org/photos/NAC-99/QaulAmen.jpg

better profile view...

Im liking this design alot... and Im pretty sure im going to get the plans... but please someone comment...

Baronvonrort

06-18-2006, 12:27 AM

frosh

06-18-2006, 01:30 AM

John, plans are like the cheapest part. Generally you will get what you pay for. Full size patterns are really great. They will save heaps of time and ensure accuracy of the panels. As a newbie, it is easy to make a mistake trying to transfer dimensions from a small sheet of paper to a panel of marine ply. Also stitch and glue construction uses very little solid timber. This is a cost saving and a bonus if your woodworking skills are not that good.
The suggestion about the Moth (scow) is also worth looking at. The final result will give a lot more performance, but is more difficult to build without doubt. If you go this way you should enlist the help of some-one who has built a wood boat before. :)

JohnBloch

06-18-2006, 02:00 PM

John
I dont mean to offend you but i think it would be a waste of time and money trying to build your design.

Can i suggest you contact someone in the "moth" class in Australia and see if someone has plans for an older scow type which you might pick up very cheaply or even for free.

The older scow moths are very easy and and pretty cheap to build from plywood.You could probably get a good second hand sail cheap as well.

You can roof rack it and it would be a lot more fun to sail.

www.moth.asn.au

cool.. Im not building my own design anymore...

Did you see what i just posted?

with the pictures of the "el toro"?

I was told free plans arent worth it because the designs are outdated...

That, and I think 30 dollars for a set of plans is worth more than the time of trying to contact and mail/scan plans from someone half a world away from me...

and what would the moth be more fun to sail than? my origonal design? the El Toro? im a bit confused...

ps. If i dont get full size plans, Im going to take my time In transfering...

measure more than twice, and cut once...

to be honest, I dont think it will be that hard for me to transfer plans to a full size stencil or streight to the plywood...

does everyone lack faith? or is it really that hard to transfer a drawing that should have the measurements printed on them?

Because if its that hard, I may as well not even try it... and just not build one...

Baronvonrort

06-18-2006, 10:16 PM

John
I did see the photos and they appeared just after i posted my last post.

I agree with the post about most of the free plans as a lot of them are pretty old but that said there probably are a handfull of designs that are still good.

You might find the moth guys would be very helpfull with some plans and yes the scow type is outdated compared to the new ones on hydrofoils yet some still consider it a very good design and it is so much easier to sail than the newer ones.It would be easily twice as fast as anything you have posted pictures of.I think for cost and labour to build vs performance in the 10-12 ft range makes the scow moth pretty hard to beat.

The size of the boat you are looking to build is just about perfect for a first boat which gives a far better chance of completing it.

If you take pride in your workmanship and double check all measurements you should be able to do it.A lot of fathers have built scow moths and other wooden boats for their kids at home and those other boats you have posted look easy to build.

frosh

06-19-2006, 01:30 AM

Hi John, the difference between what you designed and the El Toro performance wise is not that great, (El Toro will be better), but both of these will be a lot slower than a Moth which is a planing boat which the other(s) are not. The El Toro is essentially a tender to a cruiser or a junior racing boat meaning up to about 14 years old. If you are OK with that then go for it. It will be easy and cheap to build, go slowly, but you will learn sailing basics. If you don't mind outgrowing it pretty soon and wanting something bigger and faster that will plane, then fine!
My idea for you was to go for something in between in sail size and performance between the El Toro and the Moth as your first effort. You will then not tire of it so quickly, and it will also allow a bit of mucking about on the water with a friend if you want. I found a nice 11 footer, no more difficult to build than El Toro and a lot easier than any Moth for $35 for plans.
http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=SD11 :)

byankee

06-19-2006, 11:05 AM

There are a lot of designs out there that fit your need that also look a heck of a lot better than the El Toro. These plans are not too expensive and are worth considering:

http://www.boatplans-online.com/proddetail.php?prod=V10

From Karl Stambaugh/Chesepeake Marine Designs. I love Karl's boats - traditional in appearance, but modern materials and methods

http://www.cmdboats.com/wdk.htm?cart_id=aaa1eda1bbe6b6bd839469bd0d95a85a

http://www.cmdboats.com/seal.htm?cart_id=aaa1eda1bbe6b6bd839469bd0d95a85a

http://www.cmdboats.com/bayskiff.htm?cart_id=aaa1eda1bbe6b6bd839469bd0d95a85a (this one's a 12 footer, but it is lovely to look at so I thought I'd throw it in)

I'm surprised no one has referred you to Phil Bolger's designs. Here are a couple:

Teal - http://www.instantboats.com/teal.htm (another 12 footer but a very popular/proven design)

Cartopper - http://www.instantboats.com/cartopper.htm (11 footer - again a popular and proven design that's easy to build)

Or Jim Michalak (a bit of an aquired taste, perhaps, but he's got good reasoning behind his designs. The use of leeboards frees up interior space in the boat - something to serioulsy consider in such a small craft):

Mixer - http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/mixer/index.htm I thought this quote from the description of the boat is worth noting:
"So here is a cartopper with capacity for two adults or for camping one adult with a flat floor large enough to sleep on and lots of dry storage."

Piccup Pram - http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/piccup_pram/index.htm

Edited to add:

to be honest, I dont think it will be that hard for me to transfer plans to a full size stencil or streight to the plywood...

does everyone lack faith? or is it really that hard to transfer a drawing that should have the measurements printed on them?

Because if its that hard, I may as well not even try it... and just not build one...

No, it's NOT hard to transfer the measurements to your building materials, especially for the designs we're talking about AS LONG AS you understand basic boat builidng terminology and (for some designs) what a "table of offsets" is/means. Boat plans are not like furniture plans where every piece is drawn out with exact dimensions. Becasue of all of the curves involved, it is difficult to render a 3 dimensional hull form on a two dimensional surface (i.e. paper). Fortunately, stitch and glue boatbuilding is very forgiving of minor errors, so it is a good method for first time builders. All of the plans I listed above (and the design listed by frosh ) are supposed to be easily buildable by beginners. Some are more "idiot proof" than others (i.e. they have more information on them or include full size patterns, while others may not have the full size patterns and you may have to deal with a table of offsets), but with a little reading/research first, you'll be able to build any of them.

What IS difficult is learning how to design a good boat from scratch. There's a lot of "art" in it as well as a bunch of "science". It's difficult to learn the former even if you know all about the latter.

JohnBloch

06-19-2006, 06:32 PM

byankee....

Which of those designs do you think you could get the most speed with? would any of them "self plane" like the moth?

Baronvonrort...

Will the moth be loads harder to build than the designs byankee posted?

also, Do you know directly of anyone I could e-mail that would have a design like the one you posted available for me?

I pretty much weighed it out, and if im going to put this much time into a boat, it should be pretty quick... and something I wont grow out of soon...

but I dont know where to look for old moth designs and or who to ask...

and if any of those plans that byankee posted would be anywhere as quick, I would rather go with one of them rather than work really hard to get a design from someone...

thanks for all the input guys....

Baronvonrort

06-19-2006, 10:23 PM

John
I have had a quick look at the other designs posted byankee and frosh and the moth will be considerably faster than all of them.

The other boats posted are possibly the easiest boats to build from wood that i have seen.The Moth would be harder to build than these but not that much harder and when the scow moths were racing most of them were homebuilt.

I will see what i can do about getting some plans for you but it may take a couple of days.

Do you want me to enquire about a good second hand sail to help keep costs down?

The exchange rate favours you in America and when i had a holiday in the USA last year $100 Australian gave me $68 US.

lewisboats

06-19-2006, 10:29 PM

http://sailing.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=sailing&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.aol.com%2Fpolytarp%2Ftbear.htm

Old 10 ft JR Moth plans

And here is Gibbens 12 footer.

http://sailing.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=sailing&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.angib.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk%2Fscow%2Fscow30.htm

Steve

frosh

06-20-2006, 05:28 AM

Hi John, I have looking over the net for you for more designs/plans but nothing much better has come up that has already been posted.
The obvious difference between these and the scow Moth is that the Moth hull is built light and has a taller mast and more sail area. Also the Moth is an early planing boat and this translates to a more twitchy boat to sail but much more fun. If you have not done much dinghy sailing it will mean a few capsizes at first but it is not too difficult to master.
But the Moth hull will be much more fragile than the old designs that weigh more, so it needs more care when using it. I can't find a proper set of plans on the net for a Moth so lets see if Baronvonrort can come up with something good. I did build a Cole double chine Moth in the late 60's and it was quite a demanding project for my third boat. :)

JohnBloch

06-20-2006, 09:23 AM

erkanyilmaz

06-20-2006, 09:32 AM

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I hope you can understand me by my bad and basic english.

Contact topalogluerkant@yahoo.de

byankee

06-20-2006, 09:49 AM

John -

I think you have to figure out what you really want in a boat before you go any further. Looking back over this entire thread, I see that your criteria have changes a few times, and now I'm uncertain as to what you really want. First, you asked about a "quick and stable little boat for two" in the 9 foot range. Then it was a design about 7' long for 1 person. Then you asked about links for something about 9' long for 1 person. Now you're considering a Moth, which is a very different type of boat than what you had originally envisioned.

I'm not being critical. It would just be easier for everyone - yourself included - if you could set some parameters. At the very least, you need to consider the following things:

1) What kind of sailing do you want to do - go fast, which generally equals wet, uncomfortable and unstable, or are you willing to sacrifice some speed for a drier, stable and more comfortable ride?

2) Do you want to be able to take a friend along with you or are you going solo?

3) Will you trailer the boat, cartop it, or leave it at a dock?

4) What about storage for the boat? Do you have limited space?

5) Construction method - all of the boats under consideration are plywood, mostly stitch and glue. Is that your preferred building method or would you consider another method such a strip planking?

6) What is the maxiumum length you will consider? In general, the longer the boat, the faster it will go. Also, if you want to take a passenger, you'll have to have a boat big enough to do so.

7) What are your woodworking skills? Beginner? Competent amateur? Pro?

8) Where are you going to sail - pond, large lake, sheltered bay, open ocean? What are the typical wave and weather conditions where you will sail most often?

I think that if you answer these questions, you'll be in a better position to be able to judge if a design really fits your needs/desires.

For example, if your top priority is speed and you're not concerned about getting wet, are not turned off by the idea of capsizing occasionally and being somewhat uncomfortable and you never want to bring a passenger along, the Moth may be the boat for you. (But if you're REALLY interested in going fast above everything else, you should consider a catamaran (yes, there are plans available for cats) because no mono hull boat will go as fast as a cat)

OTOH, if you want to have decent speed performance with stability, reasonble comfort and the ability to take along a passenger, you don't want the Moth.

One last thing to consider is how much time it takes to rig the boat for sailing if you're trailiering or cartopping the boat. For example, the Karl Stambaugh designs are rigged very quickly - drop in the mast with the sail wrapped around it, rig the sprit intio the snotter, throw on the rudder and you're ready to go. Any racing boat like the Moth or the El Toro, is going have a lot more ropes to deal with, side stays to rig and other stuff to deal with. If you've only got an hour or two to sail, do you want to spend 20 - 30 min of that time rigging the boat and another 20 - 30 min unrigging it when you're done sailing?

A simple to rig boat like the Bay Skiff 12 or the Jimmy Skiff makes it possible and reasonable to go for a sail when you've only got an hour or so, whereas a boat like the Moth that takes longer to rig and unrig wouldn't be suited for this kind of scenario.

Well, I've said more than enough. I'll shut up now.

JohnBloch

06-20-2006, 04:34 PM

1) What kind of sailing do you want to do - go fast, which generally equals wet, uncomfortable and unstable, or are you willing to sacrifice some speed for a drier, stable and more comfortable ride?

In the middle... I would prefer fast but pretty stable... Im not saying i want something that will stay up in any circumstance, but something that is not as apt to fall tip when you glance away....

2) Do you want to be able to take a friend along with you or are you going solo?

yeah... a craft that can be taken out alone, but would have room for two...

3) Will you trailer the boat, cartop it, or leave it at a dock?

Well, in the begining I was thinking cartoping it... but now that the boat seems to be getting bigger (and my car is a civic hatchback... not the biggest of cars) Im leaning more to the side of trailoring it...

4) What about storage for the boat? Do you have limited space?

Belive me, I have Wet and dry space... my father owns the Service portion of two local marinas.... which could get me either... but dryspace is an abundance...

5) Construction method - all of the boats under consideration are plywood, mostly stitch and glue. Is that your preferred building method or would you consider another method such a strip planking?

Plywood.. stitch and glue...

6) What is the maxiumum length you will consider? In general, the longer the boat, the faster it will go. Also, if you want to take a passenger, you'll have to have a boat big enough to do so.

a 12 footer... but I would prefer something in the 10 to 12 foot range....

7) What are your woodworking skills? Beginner? Competent amateur? Pro?

Erm... I dont know... I think im compatent enough to be put above a beginner... but not to high over the beginner mark...

8) Where are you going to sail - pond, large lake, sheltered bay, open ocean? What are the typical wave and weather conditions where you will sail most often?

There is an abundance of places for me to sail actually... like i said, marina on the Mississippi rive ... lakes surrounding that area, and a lake a bit closer to home, which is supposed to be about 41 acres...

typical wave conditions at the river can be quite harsh... but im not planning on taking it out on a saturday afternoon... I was planning to sail in the morning (not to early but still kind of) before the motorists get out with their wave producing machienery...

One last thing to consider is how much time it takes to rig the boat for sailing if you're trailiering or cartopping the boat. For example, the Karl Stambaugh designs are rigged very quickly - drop in the mast with the sail wrapped around it, rig the sprit intio the snotter, throw on the rudder and you're ready to go. Any racing boat like the Moth or the El Toro, is going have a lot more ropes to deal with, side stays to rig and other stuff to deal with. If you've only got an hour or two to sail, do you want to spend 20 - 30 min of that time rigging the boat and another 20 - 30 min unrigging it when you're done sailing?

Something that can be over in 20 minutes easily.... doesnt have to be extremely quick, but not 30 minutes either way...

One thing to add.... Designs that would have enough room on the transom for a motor, be it an electric trolling motor to a 2 or 3 horsepower motor, would be good as well...

Im glad you asked these questions actually... I think this will help my situation alot...

frosh

06-21-2006, 12:41 AM

Hi John, so glad that byankee asked all those questions and you have answered them clearly, as now we can get down to business.
Firstly, forget the Moth, you want an open skiff type design, preferably stitch and glue construction. It will be suitable for a very small outboard also. Remember that if you see a hull and rig pictured on the net, it is not too hard to replace say a low performance lug rig with a modern sloop or cat rig with big head fully battened mainsail to dramatically improve speed.
A rig with unstayed mast is much quicker to rig and unrig.
About 11 to 12 ft. in length can be easily managed in the water by one person, but will have enough room for two and still sail well. You might consider sailing with mainsail only when alone, and adding a jib if you take a passenger.
Some of the designs already posted by myself and others on this thread are worth looking at again. Best of luck with your choice. :)

JohnBloch

06-21-2006, 05:58 PM

http://www.cmdboats.com/bayskiff.htm?cart_id=aaa1eda1bbe6b6bd839469bd0d95a85a

http://www.instantboats.com/teal.htm

looks like its a tie up...

I really like the CMD 12 footer... but the teal just looks so easy to build...

help me out here?

edit: actually Im pretty sure I want to do the Bay Skiff (or first link)

50 dollars for non-full sized plans is alot.. but to me, the design looks nicest... quite simple... and it has a transom... as opposed to the teal...

tips?

byankee

06-21-2006, 11:19 PM

Well, I might as well chime in here, for whatever it's worth....

A couple of points to consider (and please remember that I'm no expert. These are only my opinions and are worth exactly what you have paid for them):

1) Neither boat is really suited for an outboard motor (one of your items on your "wish list') - the hull shapes are wrong. However (and this is mere speculation on my part), the CMD design might be more tolerant of a very light motor (i.e. an electric trolling motor) simply because of the fact that it is wider at the rear end then the Teal. I doubt Karl Stambaugh would be enthusiastic about the idea, but you could ask him. He's always been very responsive to my stupid questions over the years. Email him through the CMD web site

2) That being said, the CMD design will row very well. You may find that rowing a properly designed skiff with a proper set of oars is not as horrible as you imagine. Karl S. certianly knows a thing or two about skiff design (he wrote an excellent book on the subject). I have no idea how the Teal will be under oars, but judging from the hull shape I'd guess it would be OK with one person aboard , but not so good with two. I may be wrong though - any Teal owners out there???

3) I have the plans for the CMD 15 foot Sailing Skiff and I can say that the plans are very complete and the boat looks very easy to build. The 12 footer should be even easier given that it is a stitch and glue design whereas the 15 footer is a "glue and screw" design. In his skiff book, Stambaugh has an illustrated step by step build of his weekend skiff - a similar but slightly smaller stitch and glue boat that is simple enough for a 12 year old to build. I don't expect that the bay skiff would be much more difficult. Bolger's boats are meant for amateur construction and they're easy to build. The Teal will probably go together a little quicker, but I doubt that there would be a significant difference. The CMD boat has a solid wood sheerstrake (optional I think - at least it is on the Sailing Skiff 15) that will require a bit of work with a hand plane to fit, but that's not too difficult a task.

4) The CMD skiff may cost a bit more for materials. Bolger specifies AC exterior plywood while the CMD boat specifies marine ply - Stambaugh recommends Meranti ply as a good compromise between cost and quality - although you could use ACX. The thing is that to me - and this is my subjective, biased opinion - the CMD boat is such a sweet design that it's worth using decent materials on it. The finished boat is going to really feel and look like a fine old skiff whereas the Bolger boat is going to look and feel more utilitarian and, well, cheaper. (Again, this is only my opinion. Folks that have Bolger boats seem to love them and think that they're the best thing since sliced bread.) It's like the difference between a ford escort and a lexus - they're both cars, but one is more refined than the other.

4) Bottom line - both appear to be "doable" for a complete novice. I'd say go with the one that pleases you the most aesthetically. You're going to live with the thing for a while, so it ought to be something that pleases you to look at and be around as well as fill your functional and practical needs.

frosh

06-22-2006, 01:55 AM

Hi John, I would second the advice given by Byankee. The CMD certainly has a few advantages in my book. Look past the cost, as boating is never going to be an excercise in absolute value for money; it is a lot more emotional than that!
Apart from the greater refinement in the CMD design it has a better (larger) beam measurement for your purposes.(sailing and motoring) Also it comes with a proper daggerboard case, where the teal looks like it uses leeboards for sailing. The former is much more efficient and less hassle also.
I would also have to say, would you rather build a Lexus or a Ford Escort? :)

JohnBloch

06-22-2006, 10:54 AM

would you rather build a Lexus or a Ford Escort? :)

I dont know... I drive a honda civic....... where does that put me at? :p

yeah... Im basically decided on the bay skiff 12...

Any suggestions for sails/rigs?

I kinda decided that 30 minutes to get ready doesnt really kill me... ive got time... and I may even get a different set of sails that could be put up quickly... or just get some oars... haha..

thanks for all the imput guys...

and i kinda realized that the outboard thing wouldnt work after looking at the drawing for a little while...

the transom is most definantly angled way to funny to put any sort of motor on it...

JohnBloch

06-22-2006, 11:17 PM

Do you think a sloop rig would be feasable? I mean, two sails have got to be better than one right? haha...

Im thinking Id like to stay away from the lateen... even though ive heard they get the best consistant speed...

how much would it cost to get a set of sloop sails, you know, a main sail with a jib, from most makers? I dont know of any close.. but there have to be some...

also, if the design doesnt have dimensions for a sloop rig, could you tell me how i should calculate the sizes and shapes?

thanks... I might have to make a new thread though...

lewisboats

06-23-2006, 10:07 AM

$200-300 maybe more. Duckworks has decent sails for good prices. Or you could make some polytarp ones.

Steve

JohnBloch

06-23-2006, 10:21 AM

$200-300 maybe more. Duckworks has decent sails for good prices. Or you could make some polytarp ones.

Steve

wow.. thats kinda expenso...

but hey, sails are sails...

Im not sure if I want to make polytarp sails though...

lewisboats

06-23-2006, 09:16 PM

Maybe you could get some used ones. They might be blown out but still useable, perhaps cut down.

frosh

06-23-2006, 11:21 PM

Hi John, The sail pictured is a 56sq. ft. sprit sail which allows a fairly short timber or windsurfer mast, either not very expensive. The sail could be made fairly cheaply (compared to a more modern sail). Performance will be reasonable for the hull which is not designed to go at high speed.
If you want to use a main and jib, contact all the sailmakers by phone and ask if they have any small sails in stock surplus to their needs. If the size is about 55 sq. ft. main and 20 sq. ft. jib this would be ideal. Second hand is another option; doesnt matter from what class of yacht; as long as the size is about the same as above. Note that you will need a second position for the mast step if want to use the jib about 1 ft. behind the original one so that the balance between the daggerboard and sails is maintained. If you use the main and jib all the time then you only need one mast step, the rear one. :)

byankee

06-23-2006, 11:38 PM

John -

Dude! You're obsessed with making things complicated, aren't you ?:D

There are many benfits to going with the leg o mutton rig specified by the designer - not the least of which is the fact that IT WAS SPECIFIED BY THE DESIGNER who has worked out all of the complexities of the relationship between the center of effort and the center of lateral resistance, the size and position of the dagger board, and a few other critical things that make the difference between a well balanced boat and one that will kill you ( well, that may be a bit extreme...) In any case, if you're going to mess with the rig, you're going to have to either do a lot of research and reading about this stuff before you can make a semi-educated guess about sail size, mast position, etc. or you're going to have to consult a naval architect or someone with a lot of experience. Either way, the result will be a guess - educated, but still a guess - and you won't know if you've got it right until you're actually on the water sailing the thing.

According to Karl S. the leg o mutton (a.k.a the boomed sprit) rig offers an excellent compromise between the performance of a marconi rig and the simplicity of a sprit rig. That's why he likes it so much. The only drawback is the length of the mast - it won't fit in the boat for transport or storage like a sprit or lug rig would.

Build the boat as specified. Sail it for a season and then decide if you really need to mess around with it.

If you feel you really need a sloop rig (more strings to pull, right?) in a small plywood boat, check out the Pooduck Skiff at http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400-102