Mirror 16 foot Sailing Dinghy [Archive]

goolawah

06-28-2006, 04:35 PM

there is also a mirror forum on msn Good on you Polly. You're hooked! :)
The MSN Forum seems to be looking for some specs so I will add the information I have -

LOA = 16ft
Beam = 6ft
Draft (Board down) = 3ft 6in
Draft (Board up) = 9in
Mast = 21ft above foredeck
Design Weight (hull) = 260lb
Portsmouth Yardstick = 92 (Whatever that means??)
Jib = 55 sq ft (Roller reefing)
Main = 123 sq ft
Spinnaker = 120 sq ft

It also occurs to me that it would be a good idea to record the sail numbers we can account for. Perhaps a seperate thread for this.

The "father" of our local group (Boat Name = CLII, Sail No = 152) has provided me with a lot of information. Much of it is photocopies of photocopies and would not reproduce well here. However, I am more than happy to use it as a resource to help answer any questions that arise.

He also provided the following -

A good starting point in UK would be the Dinghy Cruising Association. There are a few hundred members and several (maybe 12-20) have Mirror 16s. Their website etc - www.dca.org.uk, national secretary, Roger Howard, RMH@sibsey.demon.co.uk. Jack Holt Ltd is still in business at 30 Lydden Rd, London SW18 4LR (www.holtallen.com), ph 20 5570 9044. The kits were made by the Bell Woodworking Company, UK. I've just googled "mirror 16 dinghy" and found 96,900 results - though I expect most of them are for the little dinghy rather than the "16". I looked at just a couple - www.noblemarine.co.uk and http://groups.msn.com/MirrorDiscussionForum. The latter might be another good place.

goolawah

06-28-2006, 04:53 PM

Old Sailor

06-29-2006, 09:06 AM

Thanks for referring me to this site from the Mirror Dinghy MSN group.
I've built both the Mirror Dinghy and the 16. What a great boat, can't understand why it never took off. Can't remember my sail number, but I built it sometime back in the '70's in an old barn in NH. (USA)My launching was a great day until I discovered that the centerboard well was leaking and took on water in the tanks. Took a knockdown and couldn't right her cause she was full of water. Got uncerimoniously towed back to the boat ramp. Got her fixed and loved sailing her.
Haven't quite figured how to post pics I have of building her.
Old Sailor
P.S. Interesting this site uses the same software as the Wooden Boat magazine site.

goolawah

06-29-2006, 05:38 PM

Haven't quite figured how to post pics I have of building her.We would love to see the the pics. Is the problem to do with scanning them onto the computer, or loading them onto this site? I'd be happy to post some simple uploading instructions if that would help.
P.S. Interesting this site uses the same software as the Wooden Boat magazine site.Apparently also this Australian one http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/forumdisplay.php?f=29 which you might find interesting.
Mirror 16s seem to attract "old sailors", some of ours are still very active in their 80s. :cool: :cool: :cool:

Old Sailor

07-01-2006, 03:10 PM

I assume it is necessary to use Imagestation et al to post pics.
I'm not sure if anyone else in the US ever built a 16. The kits were sold by Bliss Marine in Boston.
Bob

goolawah

07-05-2006, 07:07 PM

I assume it is necessary to use Imagestation et al to post pics.

If the pics are already scanned into a digital image format (preferably .jpg format) or were taken with a digital camera, AND they are on your computer, AND they are not too big, you should be able to attach them to your post.

In the Additional Options window below the Reply to Thread window you can click on the Manage Attachments button. This will allow you to select 5 or 6 images from your computer and upload them.

I will probably be self explanatory once you give it a try. If not, let me know and I'll give more details.

It may also be an issue about whether or not your membership of this forum allows you to attach images.

goolawah

09-01-2006, 04:00 PM

Hi All,
I recently contacted Holt Allen to see if it was possible to obtain plans or patterns for the Mirror 16. I received the following reply -
Thank you for your enquiry.

Unfortunately we no longer manufacture any boats here at Holt and nor do
we have any remaining records of the mirror 16.

The only thing that I can suggest is posting on a few home build dinghy
websites.

Sorry I couldn't be of any more assistance.

I have replied asking if it would be OK to take the measurements off one or more of our Mirror 16s and make these available, as plans, to those who need them to assist with restoration or building a replica.

I'm happy to do the work, over time,
Anyone interested in the output?

POLLYMIRROR16

09-02-2006, 07:05 AM

Hi all,
Just an update on my progress with Mirror 16 "NEMESIS" no 258.
It has unfortunately been a very wet summer here even though the hose pipe bans are still in place! so I have not been able to get any work done at all yet, I have however been contacted by someone here in the UK who has just had his Mirror 16 restored.. I belive that it is number 64 and named Puff, I am just about to make further contact so hopefully all will go well. Thankyou to goolawah for sending him in my direction..one day we may have enough for a get together.
I am contacting the new Mirror association website to have the Mirror 16 re-included as they seem to have consigned us to History.and.Hey WE'RE BACK!!
Best Regards
Terence

POLLYMIRROR16

09-02-2006, 07:07 AM

Hi goolawah
very interested as always in the output
Thankyou for sending people my way.
Best regards
Terence

POLLYMIRROR16

09-03-2006, 06:49 AM

Not Mine!!
There Is A Mirror 16 For Sale On The Msn Groups Site, However I Do Not Yet Know Where In The World That It Is Located, Or Its Number But One Of You May Want Her..
Regards
Terence

POLLYMIRROR16

09-03-2006, 06:51 AM

Not Mine!!
There Is A Mirror 16 For Sale On The Msn Groups Site, However I Do Not Yet Know Where In The World That It Is Located, Or Its Number But One Of You May Want Her..
Regards
[url]http://groups.msn.com/MirrorDiscussionForum/boatsforsale.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=784&LastModified=4675587868826235782&all_topics=0

ostosix

09-15-2006, 11:46 AM

I'd be interested to know of any Mirror 16s still sailing, or under restoration, out there.

We have a small group of about 4 boats here in Brisbane and I get the impression there are very few left - anywhere.

Would this be an appropriate forum to share ideas/experiences about repairs, restorations etc?

Hi goolawah, I own sail number 489 of the Mirror 16 dinghy fleet built in '73.I believe I am the fourth owner and I boughtSN 489 from an old chap in Norfolk, UK, around six years ago. It hasn't been in the water for some years though. This is my second round of repairs.

It was damaged on launch recently and on repair attempt it was rotted in some areas under the floor as well as damaged though age and trailing. It is undergoing deep strip and restoration currently, I am replacing the centreboard case and floor support ribs, four on each side have broken.

Once this is finished it should be back to it's full glory. Incidently, I have many original posters and articles about the mirror as well as the original kit building instruction and parts inventory supplied with the kit. The kit was supplied from Bell Woodworking Company who I believe supplied the kits for thr Mirror (10'10'') dinghy for a time.

It's great to atlast find some other mirror owners and I look forward to sharing some idea's and experiences.

Regards, ostosix.

POLLYMIRROR16

09-18-2006, 09:51 AM

Hi Ostosix and welcome,
I am located in Farnborough UK and am embarking on the voyage of restoration for Mirror16 "Nemesis" sail no 258 .. You seem to have the only remaining set of plans in the UK.. if not the world..! There are a few of us now in the UK and Australia and also one in Canada.. Many thanks again to Goolwah who set this forum in motion, It seems to be gathering pace!

Rosabella

10-02-2006, 12:59 PM

Hi all

I've recently bought sail no. 333. I brought her home yesterday. Incredibly she came complete with all the original paperwork including building instructions, bill of sale, and a number of magazine articles. She's actually in sailable condition and hopefully will be taken into the water again this coming season. I don't think she requires any repairs only some repainting. Would be interested in exchanging info or meeting up with any local owners. If I can help with any information from the paperwork I have, then please let me know.

Andrew

goolawah

10-02-2006, 06:12 PM

Welcome Andrew to our little, but rapidly growing group. We have quite an active email correspondence between members in the UK, USA and Australia. We look forward to seeing some pictures and hearing some stories about Rosabella. If you send a private message with your email address I will add it to our list.

wes75

10-03-2006, 11:26 AM

Hello all,

Just registered into this forum. Have been having some conversations regarding the Mirror 16 with some of the members but thought this public formum would be a good place to be as well.

We have two Mirror 16s: one built in 1971 and one completed in 1987 which was a Christmas present from grandfather to my daughter last year. It is aptly named "Dream Come True" ; we call her "Dream" for short.

Very interested in sharing information; I'm giving very serious consideration to building yet a third for the family -- good things come in three's, don't they?

Yours in sailing,
Wes

Rosabella

10-03-2006, 11:53 AM

Thanks for message Goolawah. I can't PM you my email details yet as the forum doesn't let you send pms until you've posted five posts so just as soon as I'm able I'll send you the details.

Cheers

Andrew

goolawah

10-03-2006, 05:41 PM

Regarding email from Wes:
| When do you forsee having the plans put together?

It might be a few months yet. I have to give priority to the demands of my business (self employed), domestic obligations, and other commitments (like being the treasurer for the Wooden Boat Association of Queensland). It would would be helped enormously by collaboration with willing hands and enthisiastic supporters.

Here's where it's at....

The original plans I am working from are clearly not 100% accurate. They didn't need to be as they were only intended as an illustration to accompany the kit. On the plans I have, the shapes of the Transom and Stn4 seem fine, but Stn2 seems wrong and the shape of the forward bulkead is not shown. Clearly this is critical. The next step for me is to measure, and re-create, the shape of this bulkhead. If anyone else would like to do this it would be helpful to have the measurement off several boats. I would use a "jog-stick" for this. If you want to have a go, but don't know how to use a jog-stick, let me know and I will provide instructions. The task is complicated by the floor and side tanks.

The next step is to construct a scale model (about 1:20) out of stiff paper. I tried this over the weekend and it looks pretty good, but it proved the need for accurate dimensions of the forward bulkhead. This is an intriguing experience and well worth doing as preparation for building the real thing. I personally would not want to start cutting big sheets of ply unless I was certain is was all going to fit perfectly. If anyone would like to do this, please let me know and I will post the cutting plan, once I have resolved the issues with the forward bulkhead.

goolawah

10-03-2006, 05:52 PM

Hope you enjoy these photos. This is 3 generations of our family match
racing, August 2006, on the Castle Rock Lake in central Wisconsin. This was
the first time the hull 458 was ever raced and the first time for hull 445
since the late 1970's. Surprisingly, both were fairly even (although the
same couldn't always be said for skipper and crew) even though 445 weighed
more and the sails were used considerably more. Fun was had by all, however.

(See earlier post by Wes75)

goolawah

10-04-2006, 07:24 PM

Barrie emailed me this nice story...
My Mirror 16 is called “Puff” after the children’s song about Puff the magic Dragon!. She was built in 1967 and is No 64. I bought her in 1968 and raced her, winning the UK National Championships then sold her in 1977. I found her again last year about 50 miles from where we live. She was in a terrible state. Decks rotted, the floor rotted and the lower chine all rotted. I thought she was a hopeless case but just could not leave her lying uncared for where she was, so I bought her.

I am not very good with wood but our local boat yard did a magnificent restoration, not unlike what you have done for LuluBelle. She now looks great and I am sailing her again, even racing her although I am now 74 years old.
Barrie supplied a couple of pics of Puff. The first is how she was in 1970’s, the second one is just after she was launched this year.

goolawah

10-04-2006, 07:42 PM

Apologies if I seem to be dominating this thread. But I am keen to share the stories and have added a few posts on behalf of others.

The great news that we now have official permission from Holt to "reverse engineer" the Mirror 16 and create a set of plans for amateur use. Thanks to Barrie for following this through.

The work of developing plans is progressing and should be useful for those who would like to build a Mirror 16 from scratch, or those who are restoring one.

To get it right we need to be able take careful measurements off our existing boats. Initially, precise dimensions of the forward bulkhead are a critical requirement.

One way to do this is with a "jog-stick". As this is a generally useful tool, I thought it best to share it on this forum.

Bill hyde

10-09-2006, 05:27 PM

Hi folks,
I last contacted you on the evening I bought my first ever boat, which turned out to be Mirror 16 number 270, and was much more boat than I had gone to buy. She was all there, but a bit shabby and rotten here and there. When I got her home I found more rot that I thought around the bow, and the plywood on the transom was history. I had a long term plan to restore her, and a short term plan to get her on the water. I sawed the bow off and restored it, and the transom ply was pretty easy. The foredeck was also replaced. A coat of paint, a dab of varnish here and there and off to Lyn Tegid (Bala) in North Wales for our first outing. The RAF were practicing low level flying on the lake, and my story is that one of those two C130s clipped the top of the mast and over we went(first time out). It was a good job I had read the book, so getting her back up was no problem, but I hadn't attached the rope ladder that was one of the bits and pieces which came with the boat(the previous owner must have had the same problem with his wife), and getting her majesty the crew back in was a bit problematical. she then wouldn't empty(the boat), and sailed like a brick and it was clear that there was a problem. She was full of water between decks so I took her home and found that the centre board box had rotted on both sides under the two drains(technical word?)-big holes. Off came part of the deck and I have just finished fixing the box. The new bit of deck has encouraged me to do a proper job over the winter and put a whole new deck on, it looks lovely. Anyway, I'm hoping to get one weekend's sailing in before the lake freezes over, you Ausies don't know you're born! I have tried to attach some pics, but for some reason it aint working.
Bill hyde

goolawah

10-14-2006, 03:45 PM

Good to hear from you Bill. Looking forward to seeing some pics when you can.

We had a nice outing yesterday with our Wooden Boat Association to Coohiemudlo Island http://www.coochiemudlo.net/ (http://www.coochiemudlo.net/). It was a lovely sunny day with light north-easterly breeze. We had two Mirror 16's along - "Lulubelle" and "CLII". The owner of Czarina II crewed with me and after our two M16s had gone for a sail further out in Moreton bay we all met up for lunch on the beach.

One of our members has a cottage on the island where he is building a David Payne designed 16foot Canoe Stern motor launch. http://www.payneyachts.com/motor_launches.htm (http://www.payneyachts.com/motor_launches.htm) It will be a beautiful boat when finished.

On the way home I called in to see progress on M16 "Czarina II". The bottom has now been cleaned up, repaired where necessary. and fibreglassed. It won't be long and she'll be ready to turn over and get the topsides fixed up. Then we'll have three M16s sailing regularly.

ancient kayaker

11-02-2006, 06:45 PM

goolawah, I've just googled "mirror 16 dinghy" and found just one result apart from references to some of these postings; I included the quotes. Here it is:

http://boards.fool.co.uk/Message.asp?mid=10194721

It has some good info on the Mirror 16 including some thoughts on why it expired. It was valuable to me as I was considering using some of the same constructional features in a design of mine, and now I know better.

odimarines

11-02-2006, 07:01 PM

If any one has any information how to find a person please let me know

thanks

goolawah

11-02-2006, 08:13 PM

some good info on the Mirror 16 including some thoughts on why it expired.I agree that the construction method lends itself to decay and rot due to the lack of ventilation. I'm not sure that you can make the connection that this was the reason for it's demise. The Mirror 10 became, and still is, very popular and this difference in popularity developed long before the issue of decay in the Mirror 16 would have become apparent. The main problem with Lulubelle was due to structural damage apparently due to excessive lateral force on the centreboard, not rot. The construction method presented difficulties in repairing this damage leading to a series of unsatisfactory "patch-up" repairs.

In our more complete refurbishment we have added 16 inspection ports. After sailing we are meticulous about draining and sponging out any water, and leaving the ports open for ventilation.

This, combined with the use of modern epoxies, should keep her sailing for a good while yet. (Along with others in our small, but growing, international fleet)

I think the lack of popular take-up of the Mirror 16 is more likely due to -

1. It represents a much bigger, more complex construction task that many amateur builders would have wanted to take on. (Even as a pre-cut kit).

2. I suspect that, as a weekend camping boat, it suffered competition from various trailer sailer designs (Hartley 16 in our part of the world) which offered more comfort and convenience, having a cabin, and looked more like a boat in which you could sleep overnight.

3. One of the features we find attractive is the roominess of the M16. It is very comfortable sailing for 3-4 adults whereas our Mirror 10 is a squeeze for just 2. While we are not into racing Lulubelle, other Mirror 16 enthusiasts love racing. My impression is that Jack Holt came up with a design that provided a roomy hull, and a construction method that made it relatively easy for an amateur to achieve a very efficient hull shape (for racing). This has led to somewhat unconventional appearance that might not appeal to some (Except Mirror 16 enthusiasts, of course).

4. As we all know, the cost of building a boat, especially a sailing boat, lies not in the plywood but in the paint, spars, rigging, sails etc. This seems to increase at something like the cube of the length. Thus, if you spent $1000 building a 10 foot boat, you would spend around $4000 on a similar boat of 16 feet. (It would probably be even more, but it certainly would not be a directly proportional $1600.) This would place the Mirror 16 in a whole different target market that probably wanted either more serious racing capabilties, or more serious camping capabilities, for their money.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see whether the re-launched Mirror 16 finds a following, once we have finished re-creating the plans.

Barrie Skelcher

11-03-2006, 05:00 PM

The decline in the M16 started with a disasterous National Championships in the early 1970's when a fleet of about 25 boats were allbut 2 capsized. After this a number of participants sold their boats and the M16 gained a reputation for being unstable. This was unfair. The boat is over canvased but designed for quick reefing. The problem was that the genoa reefing gear jamed on all the boats. However the fault is easy to cure.

After that interest wained, (I was on the Class Association Cttee at the time). There was also concern about water getting under the floor and the fragility of the hull. Both these problems can now be overcome. Water mainly gets in under the floor through leaks in the centrecase joint. This is simple to cure with a strip of tape epoxied over the joint.

The other factor was the Wayfarer which was then adopted by most RYA recognised sailing schools as a good beginners boat. With so many people learning in the Wayufarer they tended to buy one when they had completed their course.

Barrie Skelcher

POLLYMIRROR16

11-12-2006, 10:02 AM

Hi all,
Just a quick note to thank Barrie for the information which will make the restoration of NEMESIS a whole lot easier for me to complete, many thanks also to those others of you who are putting in a lot of time an effort into this project of getting the Mirror 16 back on the board. I am still in the gathering of materials stage, however I have so far got together 8 sheets of 6 mm marine ply (9x4ft) for any patching that need to be done, and 6 cans of oxford blue yacht paint along with 4 cans of yellow yacht paint! (all donated by a local boat yard owner and friend that has taken an interest in my project but does not wish to be named) so I at least sort of know the final colour scheme. I have also just got my trailers back from the welders where they have undergone some major surgery and are now road worthy, but will they fit?.:?:
Time will tell:D
Best regards to you all
Terence

goolawah

11-14-2006, 04:47 PM

Good to hear of your progress Terence. Looking forward to seeing some more pictures.
I attended our local Wooden Boat Association last night and picked some information that was new to me.

I thought it might interest other Mirror 16 enthusiasts, so heres the link.
http://www.125assoc.com/history.asp

Plans progressing slowly....

Darryl Riley

11-22-2006, 11:59 AM

Sail Loc Boat Name/Status
152 OZ CLII/Sailing (CLII is 152 in roman numerals, if you hadn't noticed)
179 OZ Lulubelle/Sailing
196 OZ ??
198 OZ Czarina II/Under restoration
258 UK Nemesis/Under restoration

If anyone wants to let me know their details I will add them here.

Hello Just joined the group, bought a mirror 16 last year done some repairs to it and sailed it this year. It sails beautifully single handed with a reef and is still quite quick. By the way it is No 3 and it's in the UK

goolawah

11-22-2006, 03:23 PM

By the way it is No 3 and it's in the UK
Welcome to te group Darryl. Wow! Number 3. I wonder if we'll find number 1 in there somewhere.

Have you been in touch with Barrie Skelcher, who is keeping a list of known Mirror 16 owners?

Barrie Skelcher

11-23-2006, 04:57 AM

Hello Darryl,

I,m Barrie Skelcher, No 64 "Puff" and sail at Slaughden on the Suffolk (UK) Coast. I would like to hear from you direct and add your details to our list of M16 owners. (ie boat name, your email & poatal address and if you wish, phone number) I will then add to the list which is circulated to all our members.Whereabout are you? Do you race, if so off what handicap? I had Puff back in 1968, sold her some years latter then discovered her last year rotting away. Bought her and had her restored. If you want any help or advice please feel free to contact me.

Regards

Barrie

Darryl Riley

11-23-2006, 08:55 AM

Hello Barrie
I currently race an Albacore at Shottick lake in North Wales (UK), You can E mail me on darryl.riley1971@tiscali.co.uk. The boat was built by Bell and is as origional, with no modifications yet. The Centre board keeps poping up while sailing so thats about to get a bit of bungy on it to hold it down.
It is going to be used for dinghy cruising around the north Wales coast as it has the cuddy and frame for overnight camping. While it isn't the prettyest of boats it is very functional and light for the size.

Cheers
Darryl

goolawah

11-23-2006, 03:43 PM

Hi Darryl

While it isn't the prettyest of boats it is very functional and light for the size. Indeed! Are we going to be introduced? Does she have a name? We would love to see some pictures (especially ACTION!) if you have any.

Our little group is planning a sail on Sunday. We will launch and Manly (a bayside suburb of Brisbane), and sail variously to or around Green Island, St Helena Island, King island depending on conditions.

Such outings recently have included a day trip to Coochiemudlo Island, and camping weekends at Elanda Point on Lake Cootharaba and "The Bedroom" on South Stradbroke Island.

You might be interested the latest issue of our Wooden Boat Association newsletter featuring a Mirror 16 on the front cover. http://www.profitworks.com.au/Thelog06/

Dave Hawley

11-23-2006, 06:40 PM

Hi, my name's Dave and I've never been on the web before.

Whats the first thing I see but Mirrors!!!!

Chatting to my father this evening he reminded me that he had a little part to play in its history. He was mates with Barry Bucknall when he had the comission from the Mirror newspaper to bring sailing to the masses.The design was just right for the times. My dad dealt with original Mirror supplier Jeckles the sailmakers, being in the canvas game, and over a boozy lunch the idea for a Mirror trailer tent was born. Barry designed the 'hull' of plywood and dad did the canvas with the plywood cutting done by Bell Woodworks in Liecester UK.I'm not sure they did the ply kits for all boats in the UK but a hell of a lot.

Oh well so this is the web, I feel my Walker log has been bettered.

A reply would be nice

goolawah

11-23-2006, 08:10 PM

G'day Dave, from the Australian end of the Mirror 16 enthusiasts forum. The web has proven a wonderful place for Mirror 16 enthusiats all over the world, who thought they were alone, to discover others of similar bent.

We naturally wonder if there are any Mirror 16s in Guernsey? ;)

Dave Hawley

11-24-2006, 05:24 PM

Hey Mon

Thanks for the reply, funny you should ask about any Mirrors in Guernsey, as I drove to work this morning the boatyard across from ours,John Cluett Sailing Services, has this boat on a trailer that looks just like a 16 but, but in strip! Have you ever seen one? John's yard is one of those that just seems to fill with old wooden boats(heaven) but they do'nt die just yet. P.S. John is working on 100' Tug boat called the Cairns, not one of yours is it?

goolawah

11-25-2006, 04:04 PM

looks just like a 16 but, but in strip! Have you ever seen one? Well no, I haven't, and I can't imagine it, but Barry Skelcher would be the one to know.
P.S. John is working on 100' Tug boat called the Cairns, not one of yours is it?Well, it would be interesting to know, but I doubt it. I'm sure the world abounds with references to Cairns other than our North Queensland city, which apparently it was named after Queensland's first Irish born Governor, Sir William Wellington Cairns.I drove to work this morning the boatyard across from oursDoes this mean you own, or work in, a boat yard in Guernsey??

goolawah

11-25-2006, 07:29 PM

Barrie Skelcher has been compiling a list of Mirror 16s in their various "hot-spots" around the world. He recently sent out an updated list which I reproduce here in the hope that it may encourage others to make contact.

I have excluded contact details and suggest that contact would best be made, in the first instance, through this forum.

Thanks Barry.

angus2006

12-01-2006, 07:15 PM

Hi there everyone, just thought you might like to know that I have a Mirror 16in Adelaide, South Australia. She has lived all her life near the sea, at Normanville, about 1 hours drive from Adelaide. My father aquired her from our then next door neighbor at our beach house in a somewhat run down state. He replaced the floor and repainted and got her back into a sailable condition. However, she has since rotted (partly) through the foor and had a couple of holes put in the hull from getting it onto the trailer by someone who was not watching what they were doing.

I learnt to sail in her, and I have sailed many boats but she is still my favourite. Fast, comfortable and plenty of room! It is a pitty that they are not still being made. We have taken her down the Coorong (a lake system near the south coast) many times, and is always fun.

Is it true that boats used in salt water are less prone to rotting? Have any of you had problems with rot in the actual hull? If so how hard is it to repair and is it really justifiable to spend thousands of hours and hundreds of dollars, repairing something like this.

Even though I know there is a large amount of work involved to repair her, I think it may be easier to build a new hull. Does anyone have plans for these boats? If you got all the shapes laser or water cut out it would be easy to build.

goolawah

12-01-2006, 10:16 PM

Hi Angus,

Great to hear from you. Do you know the sail number of your Mirror 16? We are trying to develop a list of know boats world-wide.Is it true that boats used in salt water are less prone to rotting? Have any of you had problems with rot in the actual hull? If so how hard is it to repair and is it really justifiable to spend thousands of hours and hundreds of dollars, repairing something like this. Salt water CAN inhibit rot but if the ventilation is inadequate, as under the floor of a Mirror 16, rot can still develop. Presumably, over time, condensation will introduce fresh water as the air in the under-floor bouyancy expands and contracts. Also, the glue used in the original construction was not very good compared with today's epoxies. Our Mirror 16 hull still has most of the original outer skin but the plywood, while not actually rotted, is quite fragmented in places. It looks as though she may have been left with a puddle of water in the bottom, soaking into the ply. With such thin ply it is quite vulnerable to puncturing either from stony beaches or trailer accidents.

Even though I know there is a large amount of work involved to repair her, I think it may be easier to build a new hull. Does anyone have plans for these boats? If you got all the shapes laser or water cut out it would be easy to build.There are no plans as the originals were all supplied as kits. Holt Limited in the UK no longer have plans or templates but have given permission for us to "reverse engineer" the plans from our boats. I have this process under way but it is a time consuming task and I can only progress it as time permits. Meantime we have, collectively, a great deal of information and experience including the original building instructions and the class registration measurement details.

Our "Lulubelle" needed quite a lot of work and it took 15 months part time to get her fixed up. The main cost was epoxy and paint.

If you have further specific questions about re-furbishment, post them here and we'll do our best to help.

Barrie Skelcher

12-03-2006, 04:05 PM

Hallo Dave,

Does John Cluett have an email address? Would like to know more about the M16 you saw there.

Regards

Barrie Skelcher
M16 No 64,

Youngatheart

12-22-2006, 05:33 PM

This is my first contact through a forum so if I dont get it right please tell me. I have just joined the U K Dinghy Cruising Association and am looking for a boat. The Mirror 16 dimmly remembered from 70s would I thought be a good choice. However they are rather thin on the ground and from reading the thread moves are afoot to start building again. There is an obvious leaning towards timber construction, because it is the easiest way for one off construction and many people prefer it astheticaly. However would anyone be interrested in composite construction, glassfibre hull timber internals and deck and if so could permision be obtained from the design owners to produce a limited number of boats. A further consideration for new construction is legislation in the E. U. The Leisure Craft Directive. This lays down some rules which new boats have to comply with before they can be sold. But does anyone know whether it applies to home construction. Maybe as far as boat construction in the E. U. is concerned it would be as well to clarify what regs, if any, have to be complied with before a lot of time is expended on producing plans. In the meantime I am still looking for a Mirror 16, but on without too much work needed.

Barrie Skelcher

12-23-2006, 04:32 PM

Hello,
I am Barrie Skelcher and a very keen on the Mirror 16s. Last year I retrieved my old M16, No 64 which I had sold in 1977. I have had to have her restored but now she is sailing and racing again. I have another which I might be interested in selling to a caring owner.

The M16 was designed for cruising or racing. She is a little over canvassed but designed to reef easilly. Compared with a Wayfarer she is not so robhust but lighter and faster. She is also more roomey and has a better layout for camping in. I understand that the EU classification rules do not apply to an owner built boat providing it is not sold for 5 (?) years. If I can help please email me at skelch@sumplace.abelgratis.com

Regards

Barrie Skelcher

Q C

01-20-2007, 05:11 PM

Our family had #88 which we bought second hand in 1969. We sailed the her hard for many years - mostly in the Solent. Then we emigrated to Canada and sailed her on the lakes here. We just plain wore her out. It would have been nice to restore her, but the reality was that we would have to build a complete new boat using her as a model. My dad was too old and I live too far away to help so my dad sold her in around 2004. It looks as if Paul Lingen bought it shortly after in 2006.

Here are some pictures of us with her in 1974 doing what she did best - planing in a force 4 on a bright sunny day. Sorry about the quality - they were scanned from a 35mm slide.

nigel34

01-21-2007, 02:56 PM

i also have a mirror 16, no34 in the uk.

nigel34

01-21-2007, 02:57 PM

i also have a mirror 16, bought it last year repainted & revarnised it .looking forward to sailing it this year in the lake district . the sail number is 34 .as far as i can tell no major repairs or rot .great to see there are still m16s .will post pictures asap.

goolawah

02-18-2007, 08:31 PM

Just thought I would share this experience for the sake of those not familiar with the Mirror 16 (which seems to be just about everybody).

Our local Wooden Boat Association decided to plan a messabout, held last weekend, focussing on capsizing and righting. The idea was to make sure our (mostly ageing) members had the capability to right their capsized boat, and to get back aboard. This was to highlight problems such as -

1. The fact that you could right your boat when you were 18 is no guarantee that you can still do it at 60 plus.

2. Some Mirror 16 owners have modified their stowage compartments so that they have closing hatches. This can increase bouyancy and the capsized boat can float so high in the water that you can't reach the centreboard.

3. Ageing boats, bult in the pre-epoxy era may have developed weaknesses that would result in breakage under the stress of capsizing/righting. Good to test.

We have always sailed very conservatively, camper/cruisng rather than racing so have not had occasion to experience righting a capsized Mirror 16.

I'm pleased to report that -

1. She capsized without damage.

2. We could reach the centreboard OK to climb up. (We will make some minor mods to improve access to righting ropes).

3. She righted OK and proved to be completely self bailing. Most of the water had drained out through the centreboard case before we could clamber aboard.

4. Climbing aboard (over the transom) was quite easy as a result of a simple step added to the side of the rudder blade. This obviously affects performance but as we are cruising and not racing it is a small concession to our advancing years.

The way this design has a substantial amount of bouyancy under the whole cockpit floor really works well in recovering from a capsize.

ostosix

06-30-2007, 02:21 PM

Here is a couple of pictures of Mirror 16 No. 489 undergoing refurbishment in my garage in Lincoln, UK. I have made a new centreboard case using the measurements of wood given on the parts list I have from the original kit. I'ts relatively easy although you are not working to any datum. I used the old parts as templates. It is assembled using west system epoxy with no screws. This should stop any moisture from getting in, in the future.

The next job is to replace the ribs which I will do with strengh an longevity in mind. All the ones missing on the photos were broken or cracked. I had to cut some away to get the old case out. I will make the lightening holes smaller so there is more wood to take the load of trailing and the crew. I will also keep the ventilation at the top of my priorities. I will fit more ventilation hatches. The ribs will be epoxy coated before final assembly of the hull.

Tackling this with the dinghy upside down is a good way of doing it but is costly in materials. I've seen other photos were the floor is removed but this only gives you limited access to the frames. I would recommend this only as a long term option. It definatly is not a weekend repair.

It does feel good to know that the dinghy will give plenty of years service after completeing such an indepth overhaul.

If you've got any ideas or experience of this, especially epoxy coating, please let me know.

My email is ostosix@gmail.com Thanks.

Mike Bryan

ostosix

07-17-2007, 05:03 PM

Hi, just thought I'd give you an update on Mirror 489's rebuild.

Now the case is in, the next job is to make and fit the ribs that support the cockpit floor. With strength in mind I made the ribs more substansial in the central section between the two lightening holes. I decided on 4 1/2 inches instead of approx 2 inches like in the originals as a mixture of strenght and ventilation qualities. This is because the dinghy will spend a fair amount of time being time being towed so it needs to be fairly strong, and I don't fancy doing this again anytime soon!

I brought in the central support in towards the case to take the weight of the crew moving around as a lot of the floor is covered by the benches. I also made the holes smaller so there's more wood all round. They are 6 mm ply, the same as the originals. I fitted them with epoxy fillets. You can see in the picture the difference between the new and the original.( I put them in large so you can see how the old one has cracked.)

I have some towards the transom to finish which were only part removed. That should be a quick job tomorrow.

That's all for now.

Any questions or points to help please email me on ostosix@gmail.com.

Regards Mike

dream458

07-18-2007, 10:17 AM

Hi all,

This is Katrina, the owner of Sail# 458. I have been sailing the boat on Perry Lake in Kansas, USA. Here are some pics from a breezy day, we her reefed and we were moving FAST! Enjoy...

albatros

11-25-2007, 06:49 PM

I have been researching 16' sailing dinghies for a while to decide what to buy. I ended up getting a GRP Wayfarer. But I found this forum and looked at the Mirror 16 after an older guy in my sailing club showed me one in a friends shed nearby that has not been used for many years, and is apparently available. The boat is stored dry and looked ok. It may very well be that restoration of this example of the Mirror 16 is a rather easy surface job. I though someone reading this thread might be interested to hear. Let me know if you want to be put in touch with this guy. This would be in Staffordshire, UK.

martinpook

04-29-2008, 03:27 PM

My friend and I have just bought a Mirror 16 on ebay. It all seems to be it good nick if somewhat used. I'll get out the sails to check for a number. Reading through this thread has been very interesting and instructive.
I was told a while back that although Barry Bucknall built the first Mirror 10 it was in fact not very good and Jack Holt was hastily summond to put it right.
Our boat will be sailing in Poole this summer
Martin

joz

05-08-2008, 06:33 AM

Are there any Mirror 16's sailing in Australia?

goolawah

05-08-2008, 05:43 PM

Are there any Mirror 16's sailing in Australia?

You bet! There are several in Brisbane. I don't know about other states.

Would you be interested in acquiring/building one?

joz

05-10-2008, 07:16 AM

I am looking at it as a possible consideration to which I would like to get back into sailing later this year or early next year. I am looking at a faw dinghies and this one is one of them.

these classes are what are under considertion as well as the Mirror 16 .

* Pacer Class
* Mirror Class (10'0")
* Heron Class
* GP 14 Class
* National E (Lazy E) Class

I am looking for a design that is both for saturday racing and also dinghy cruising as well and I would like a real boat in wood. I haven't made a final decision as yet and I would like to be a re-build job so I can get more experience in boat building as well.

martinpook

05-10-2008, 03:02 PM

Interesting. I had to look up one or two of these - National E appears to be an Australian boat, at least I can't find a UK reference. The Mirror is bigger and has plenty of room to lie down on a flat cockpit sole.
The Mirror has great stability from very hard chines and a good turn of speed.
Mine has no number but must date from the sixties.
Goolawah has said that he is taking the lines off, something I might do myself. I did this with a West Wight Potter. I think that the skin of the Mirror is made in one piece and then stitched into shape after which all the bits are fixed inside - I'll be delighted if someone either confirms or disagrees with this, but I'll be damned if I can think how the tortured shape of the bow can be obtained otherwise - it is very similar to a Selway Fisher 'Beaver' - www.selwayfisher.co.uk
We will be sailing our Mirror 16 named 'Rhapsody' after painting with Blakes rhapsody blue (Gershwin, but my mate is into that sort of thing)
Martin Pook

goolawah

05-10-2008, 03:06 PM

Until recently we had a Mirror 10 and a Mirror 16. Have just sold the M10. It was really too small for two ' mature' adults to sail comfortably. The M16 is a much bigger boat with plenty of room for four, excellent self-bailing capability and a flat floor to make camp-cruising more practical.

You will no doubt be aware that the M10, M16 and Heron were all designed by Jack Holt. The 125 is an Australian derivative of the M16.

As with the other Jack Holt designs the M16 is designed to be easily built from a kit. Unfortunately this means that there are no plans available. We have a project under-way, with the permission of the copyright owners, to 'reverse engineer' the plans from the information and boats that we do have. This has been held up for a while as the task had reached the limit of my capability. It is now moving forward again through the efforts of an experienced CAD expert, based in Brisbane, who intends to build one. I just heard from him yesterday and he is about to start building a scale model to 'prove' his plans.

It's hard to imagine that Brisbane is the only place in Australia to have actively sailing Mirror 16s, but it may be so. I know of two possibly for sale but I imagine freight costs would preclude that possibility if you want one in Melbourne.

More on the progress of plans as it progresses.

goolawah

05-10-2008, 03:16 PM

I think that the skin of the Mirror is made in one piece and then stitched into shape after which all the bits are fixed inside - I'll be delighted if someone either confirms or disagrees with this, but I'll be damned if I can think how the tortured shape of the bow can be obtained otherwise Despite the fact that we lack the plans, we do have a a complete set of measurements and a copy of the building instructions.

The main hull components that form the shape are two panels on each side (i.e. a side panel and a bottom panel), and one forward bulkhead which forces the bow curve. There are also a central spine and carefully shaped 'floor webs' or ribs spaced at 300mm intervals along the full length of the boat.

Obviously the floor panels and other internal components also contrbute to it pulling together to the right shape.

It will be great to see some new ones under construction.

martinpook

05-10-2008, 04:55 PM

I should have said we'll be sailing it this coming week. I will be very interested to see what happens. I have built about thirty boats using taped ply and am an experienced Autocad draughtsman. The other project I have on hand is repairing a National Swordfish dinghy - Uffa Fox design built by Fairey Marine in hot molded veneer, this one dates from 1956 - particularly interesting is that the top third of the mast is wood, the rest being aluminium.
Martin Pook

joz

05-10-2008, 06:25 PM

Goolawah

Have you considered something like advertising as such to find out if anyone in Australia that has such boats in their backyard to which they haven't use in years to which could be bought rather than rotting away.

Ozducati

05-12-2008, 08:19 AM

Martin,
Despite the way it looks, the bow of the Mirror 16 is completely developable from a flat panel. The resulting shape is a section of the surface of a cone that has its axis pointing down towards the bow and is angled across toward the outside of the hull. Simple once you see it, but creates a beautiful curve!!!

martinpook

05-19-2008, 05:47 AM

Yes, I accept what you say about the shape. We have now sailed our boat for the first time which was good, down the Wareham river with my Johnson outboard firing on one cylinder, and I am now modifying the mast layout to make it easier to step. The present mast is made up from two and is quite heavy. I enquired the price of a new one £500! with boom and rigging £800.
There seem to be quite a few of these boats in Oz but they are like rocking horse poo in UK
Martin

Ozducati

05-22-2008, 05:23 AM

Here's where I'm up to so far....... this is a rendering of the 3d AutoCad model that I have created.
I have based the overall hullsize on dimensions from the Class measurement sheet, so it should be pretty close to the original.
Ostosix has kindly offered to send me the profiles of the underfloor ribs which will be invaluable in generating the curvature of the bottom panels.
Reading between the lines of the assembly manual, I am guessing that the 'spine' under the floor was made from 4mm ply strengthened with 3/4" square timber around the edges. Can anyone confirm this?
Any information that anyone may have on the stock sizes of timber that lie under the floor would be appreciated.
I spoke to the people at Glascraft Marine in Brisbane today (they were distributors of Mirror 16 kits during the '70s) and after a scrounge they found some old sales literature which they are going to fax to me. If anyone is interested in a copy, please let me know.

Comments, criticism and advice are all welcome.

joz

05-22-2008, 06:02 AM

Rod

Are you re-producing plans for the Mirror 16 to be built for the home builder where by you can race and also be able to cruise and sleep in the cockpit under a boom tent?

Ozducati

05-22-2008, 06:49 AM

G'day Joz,
What I am trying to create is a set of plans/patterns to reproduce the Mirror 16. The closer I can get it to the original, the better. Once they are complete and proven, then I intend to make them available to whoever wants to build one.

joz

05-22-2008, 07:02 AM

Rod

Thats cool if you could have the cruising option included I would consider such a design to which gives me another option on top of racing.

martinpook

05-22-2008, 04:04 PM

Rod - that looks excellent. I'll go and have a look in the bilges tomorrow - there are access hatches - and see what I can ascertain. I'll be very interested to receive any information on the boat.
Martin

Ozducati

05-22-2008, 06:55 PM

Thanks for your offer of assisstance, Martin.
I received the fax from Glascraft..... not much on it really except the mention of a Mirror 14.

martinpook

05-23-2008, 01:01 PM

Rightho - I didn't realise I could send .dwg files so there should be a .pdf attached. This boat is more like an aeroplane in construction so not all normal boaty terms apply. The drawing is just a sketch to show what it looks like and I have guessed the dimensions of the solid bits of what might be called a keelson. Something odd happens at the centrecase and I need more time to have a think about what I can see - but not until next week.

I didn't know there was a Mirror 14, but I think there was also a motor cruiser.

As a cruising dinghy you couldn't have a better area to sleep on - room for two with only a minimal boom tent. Stability seems to have been in question and I was told by the guy I bought mine from that it was more stable than a Wayfarer. With hard chines as far out as the Mirror has it will be more stable, but will capsize quickly once you reach its limit - if you have a flat bottom and vertical sides you can stand at the side of the boat, but lean out and it will tip you in very quickly. So I can see why the RYA and schools prefer the Wayfarer with its more progressive stability. It also got a name for being a 'good sea boat' from the exploits of Frank and Margaret Dye. They sailed one to Iceland, capsizing several times - not my idea of a 'good sea boat'. I met Frank some years ago and umm... nutter springs to mind. Margaret on the other hand is a delightful lady just like your favourite granny, just that her true north is a few degrees different to the rest of us.
Martin

Ozducati

05-23-2008, 07:39 PM

G'day Martin,

Frank & Margaret sound like 'interesting' people ..... still, it would be a pretty dull world if we all danced to the same tune.

I've heard a number of opinions about the stability of the Mirror 16, some good & some not so good. Most of the 'not so good' stories have come from people who mucked about in 300+kg boats (steel centreboards and the like) so I guess it depends upon your point of reference. My last boat (and my first one!) was 7'6" long, 3'5" wide and weighed 55lbs, and we had no stability problems with it. (You can see it at http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/designs/plastic/index.htm )

I have attached a couple of images from the Mirror 16 building instructions booklet.... these should cast some illumination on the centreboard case.
Also, Ostosix posted some photos earlier in this thread (post #57 & #58) that show the hull inverted with sections of the bottom panels removed.
Are you certain that the floor and bottom panels are 6mm? Everything I have read and heard so far indicated that these were 4mm.

Goolawah is taking his Mirror 16 to the Bribie Classic Regatta at Bribie Island this weekend. He has offered to take myself and my boys for a sail. Definitely looking forward to that.

martinpook

05-24-2008, 02:10 PM

Rod
The difference between the pictures you posted and mine are a bit of a concern so I will have to look closer.
Happy sailing
Martin

martinpook

06-02-2008, 03:36 PM

Hi Rod, sorry I haven't got back before, I have to work sometimes. I hope you enjoyed your sailing. With a bit of luck we'll get out this week.
Obviously I can't check the bottom of the boat, but the sole and seats (buoyancy tanks/lockers) are 4mm so the bottom is as well I would guess. The fore deck has been replaced by the previous owner using 6mm, probably WBP (the stuff you get at your local building supplies with a thick central core) rather than marine. The pictures show an 'I' section forward of the centrecase but mine is definitely boxed.
I went back and looked at Ostosix's photos. He asked about epoxy coating. The whole of that bottom section of the boat must be very prone to rot and epoxy coating would seem a good idea on the face of it but relies on getting the coating continous and waterproof, mainly by soaking into the ply. With most timbers it doesn't and you just have a surface coating and if you can guarantee to get that 100% cotinuous and watertight better man than I.
I had some success with birch plywood which is open grained, although birch is normally reckoned to be a short lived timber i.e prone to rot. I have an epoxy coated birch plywood boat that is now 15 years old with no sign of problems. The old clippers used to have salt packed between the frames so maybe the real answer is not to sail on fresh water!
Martin

Mirror16Sydney

07-10-2008, 09:32 AM

Hi There Ozducati,

I have just picked up on your requests. I have been renovating a mirror 16 for some time now and I can send you as many photos as you like showing the construction.

Our Mirror16 has been in the family since the 1970's when my dad built from a kit here in Sydney. I was 16 at the time and helped him a bit so I can rememeber quite a bit if the construction. The spine was built around the centre board box this was quite solid and an integral part of the spine. I can post photos looking into the service caps that verifys the buld under the deck. The ribs are 4mm but the spine is thicker from memory.

I am looking for plans on the rigging. I need to source the jib furler that is standard on the 16. Ours coroded and we replaced it with stay hooks. I want to get it back to original of course.

I will get some photos happening in the next few days. with thanks Rob

Ozducati

07-13-2008, 04:01 AM

G'day Rob,
Thanks for your offer of information. Anything would be greatly appreciated.
I haven't progressed much further since my last post.. the kids, the flu, and the impending closure of the refrigerator factory where I work have sucked up a lot of my time.
The main sticking point I have at the moment is the transverse curvature of the bottom and side panels... I would like to get these correct before I proceed further with the model. A few months back Ostosix offered to forward the dimensions of the underfloor ribs that he replaced in his M16, but I have not heard back from him yet. I think my only other option is to arrange a visit with Goolawah and measure his hull. With this in mind I have made a simple jig to measure curvature (see attached).. place the jig on the surface to be measured, read the offset on the dial indicator and translate the reading to a table of values to get the radius of the curve.

Ozducati

07-14-2008, 04:45 AM

Ostosix,
Regarding the measurements of the ribs that you were going to do.....
If it is too much of a problem to measure the ribs, could you photograph each one (making sure that the camera is as 'square' as possible to the rib when taking the photo), and include a 12" rule in each photo for scale reference.
Please let me know if this is possible for you to do, so that I can either wait for the photos or move on to some other source.
Thanks.

mirror16lincoln

07-22-2008, 09:03 AM

just wanted to let you know that another mirror 16 went on the water last night in Lincoln (UK).
after initial problems with the jib we had it on the water and it flew past every boat.
however in are excitement we did break the tiller extension, does anyone have the dimensions for the tiller and rudder?
also do you know how many boats there are left, and are there in the local area?

zorg13

09-24-2008, 05:07 PM

currently on Rhosneigr beach in anglesey there are 4 in sea worthy condition! next time i visit i will send a photo!

ICLYM

10-16-2008, 01:18 PM

I have just bought Mirror 16 sail no 265. Boat requires extensive restoration, but I think she will sail again. History suggests she has spent sometime in a barn at Henley on Thames. Would be interested in how plans etc are progressing

Ozducati

10-19-2008, 07:11 AM

danp

10-19-2008, 07:34 AM

Hi guys. Last week I was given a boat in need of repair which turns out to be a Mirror 16. I've never taken on a project like this before. I was thinking of building a GIS to get into sailing until this came up. I noticed a few people on this thread are from Brisbane, I live in Wynnum so if anyone would be able to help me out with plans or tips or even where I should begin it would very much appreciated. I just started cleaning some of the junk out of the boat today and it looks like there is a bit of rot here and there.

rfnk

10-19-2008, 10:22 AM

Absolutely! How could anyone not love the Mirror?! I had no idea there was a Mirror 16 until I found this thread. My wife will have a fit if she catches me writing this but I'd love to have a go at building a Mirror for grownups (not that I'm really grown up yet!). I think there's a real need to renew interest in boats that can be built at home fairly easily from plywood etc. It really worries me that this tradition has all but died out in Oz and, I guess, many other places. I have two nephews that I think would gain a lot from involvement in a project like this. Let us know if there's anything you need/we can do to help. Restoring boats is great fun - restoring a class of boats - even better!

Er, whoops! This is actually a reply to Goolawah's post where he was asking if anyone'd be interested in plans. I didn't realise there were several more pages of posts! Interest still stands though! Rick

Ozducati

10-20-2008, 02:31 AM

Danp,
Im local to you (Wellington Point). I would like to have a look at your boat, if possible. You probably have the "private messaging" option deselected on the options page of your profile, as I cannot send you a PM. Can you enable the option and contact me via private message.

danp

10-20-2008, 09:25 PM

Hi Rod. I'd be happy to show you the boat. I couldn't figure out how to send you a PM. Give me a call on 0402628718 when you want to have a look. The weekend would be good. If you need any help with the plans I'd be glad to help as well.

BTW I unrolled the sail and the sail number is 189.
I put a camera inside and it looks like all the ribs are broken. I guess thats where I should start?

My boat came without a trailer so if anyone here has a trailer they'd like to sell I'd be interested.

Dan

Ozducati

10-21-2008, 06:38 AM

G'day Dan,
I've got my sister & her husband turning up here from NSW on Thursday. They are only here for four days, so the weekend after this one would be earliest opportunity for me. I have a copy of the "Mirror 16 Building Instructions" and some other paperwork, so it'll give me a chance to get a set of copies run off for you.
I have attached a pic of the original Mirror 16 trailer.... I don't know if they would still be road legal.
I'll call you next week.

goolawah

11-28-2008, 10:43 PM

Hi Dan,

Welcome aboard! In principle we should be on a 'messabout' today, with other members of the Wooden Boat Association of Queensland, cruising from Manly to Green island, St Helena etc. Including other Mirror 16s as shown in Rod's very nice photo (thanks Rod).

Given that the weather looks less than brilliant, we have opted to stay home instead and do some cleaning up and minor repairs on Lulubelle after that storm. I hope the other guys make it.

If you want to have a chat to other Mirror 16 owners in Brisbane, you might like to come along to a meeting of the Wooden Boat Association. Our next meeting is an informal Christmas break-up for the year and we resume activities again in February.

Great to see that another Mirror 16 has come to light.

Sweet16

11-29-2008, 11:43 AM

Hi, Sweet16 is name of my M16 I bought from Barrie and sail at Slaughden Sailing Club - Suffolk. We now have three M16s at this club - including Barrie's. Sail number 494 - dark blue (Oxford?) hull with varnish deck an interior.

Rupert Hannen
Yoxford, Suffolk

goolawah

11-29-2008, 03:13 PM

Hi Rupert, good to hear from you. I guess you have finished sailing for the winter. When you get back to it, how about some pictures sometimes. Where do you normally sail around there? Last night we were watching a TV program on the Lake District by Griff Rhys Jones. Stunning scenery!

Here' some more about Lulubelle's misadventure.

Lulubelle had a close shave, and she wasn't even on the water. On 16 November Brisbane was hit by a violent thunderstorm. Just google it and you'll find lots of u-tube videos of the event. We were out at the time and were delayed by about 2 hours in getting home due to fallen trees across roads. When we finally got home it was chaos. Several big trees had dropped branches and some had snapped right off. The first sight that greeted us was that our loquat tree had fallen on Lulubelle.

The tree was heavy with dense new spring foliage, the ground was softened by heavy rain, and the wind had been extremely strong. It just toppled over, crushing the 'temporary' carport shelter down on our poor fragile plywood boat. The tarpaulin over the cockpit was destroyed so, in the heavy rain, she had half filled with water. Some of this had drained out through the centre-case (as it is designed to do in the event of a capsize) but the deposit of shredded leaves had pretty much clogged all exits.

The first thing was to set up a siphon to drain the water out and relieve her of that great weight. The next step was to start at the accessible 'top' of the tree, now resting across her bow, and lop off the thinner branches with their heavy load of wet leaves. Once the leafy branches were removed it was out with the saw and cutting the heavier branches eventually getting down to the trunk. Before long enough weigh had been removed from the top ot the tree that the weight of the root bole was enough for remaining stump to pull itself off the boat and back to a vertical position. All by itself! It just remained to remove the mangled carport and fit a new tarpaulin to prevent the next thunderstorm filling her up again.

The original plan for this weekend was a messabout with other Wooden Boat Association members, including a couple of other Mirror 16s, from Manly Boat Harbour to St Helena Island (see here (http://maps.google.com.au/maps/ms?hl=en&geocode=&ie=UTF8&t=h&g=St+Helena+Island&msa=0&msid=103562031474563488826.00045ccc26163c803c814&z=14)), Instead we stayed home so that Lulubelle could have a clean up and a closer inspection. Apart from a good deal of residual dampness and dirt, the only damage was to the yoke I use to hold the dropped mast when she's on the trailer.

Of course, the worry is that she has been thoroughly soaked in fresh water and that space under the floor needs to be dried out thoroughly to prevent rot. When we did the original rebuild we included 16 plastic ports in the floor to make it easier to mop out any water and to aid ventilation when she's not in use. Naturally they are all removed to let the breeze through. There have been several heavy storms since the big one and the weather is very humid. Hopefully a few sunny days will dry her out thoroughly.

Next job is to erect a new temporary car-port. It looks like being a wet summer.

http://maps.google.com.au/maps/ms?hl=en&geocode=&ie=UTF8&t=h&g=St+Helena+Island&msa=0&msid=103562031474563488826.00045ccc26163c803c814&z=14

Sweet16

11-30-2008, 07:08 AM

What a storm! Good fortune that Lulubelle survived from such devastation. Do you have large circular drain ports on Lulubelles transom - same as the plastic ports you have in your floor? Sweet16 has one either side of the centreline and these are permanently open (removed) to allow water to flow out after capsize etc. Such would have allowed the flow out of Lulubelle following the tarpaulin shredding. I have picked up some superb pics from this site for my understanding of this super class. This year (2008) has seen less sailing than last - when I bought Sweet16 from Barrie. Weather in UK has been grim for sailing this year and other commitments have impacted on this activity. Have only sailed along the river Alde and Ore - which join together and flow from Snape via Aldeburgh/Slaughden past Orford to Shingle Street where it joins the North Sea in a somewhat treacherous exit. We do have a haven for dinghy sailing on these two joined rivers. Hope your wet summer is what is wanted by the farmers - but is easy on the sailors! Good luck in your car port rebuild. Best wishes & Happy Christmas
Rupert

Ozducati

12-01-2008, 07:54 AM

G'day John,
Glad to hear that the damage to Lulubelle isn't too substantial. We got a bit of a breeze and 4" of rain, but nothing nearly as bad as in your area. I tried to send you an e-mail but the address was rejected. Have you changed it?
If you need a hand with anything don't hesitate to call me.

Some good news: I have finished drawing up the factory layouts for our new plant in Thailand which means I can spend more time on the Mirror drawing. I have re-started the model from scratch using a combination of the Mirror 16 Class Measurement Rules and photos and measurements of your Mirror.
Pic attached.

At the moment I need two dimensions: The thickness of the centreboard, and the width of the centreboard slot. Can anyone help me out here?

thudpucker

12-01-2008, 07:59 PM

goolawah

12-02-2008, 02:17 PM

I would very much like to see some more on the Oars shown in the pictures on the first page (Nemesis)
I intend to build some oars sometime soon and those look interesting.
Anybody have any leads for me?:)
There are quite a vew magazine articles, and books, on making oars. Probably plenty of info on this forum also. Was it th e 'break apart' aspect of the oars pictured that interested you?

What sort of oars are you planning on (how long, what for, etc)?

thudpucker

12-03-2008, 12:16 AM

Yes, goolawah, its the break apart that interested me.
I have not found that on the internet so far. I have saved a few articles on making oars, and some on a 12' to 15' Jon Boat.
Eventually I'll have oars for a Jon boat, so right now I dont know how long exactly but probably Seven or Eight foot long.

The oars I'm going to make shortly are for my 12' Aluminum Rowing skiff. I have Six' oars now and want Seven or even Eight foot oars. I'm old and take easy short strokes normally.

I'm at the age where fishing out of a stable comfortable boat with all my stuff right at hand, and oars for propulsion is my goal. If I stand up, I dont want the boat tipping or sliding out from underneat me.

The Fold up oars in that photo look like the piece in the middle would come off the upper or lower end of the oar. It looks strong but also heavy. Like bronze or steel.
I believe 1/4" thick aluminum would work though. I'd sure like to see it close up.
Have we thoroughly hijaced this thread?

goolawah

12-03-2008, 05:06 AM

I noticed a few people on this thread are from Brisbane, I live in Wynnum so if anyone would be able to help me out with plans or tips or even where I should begin it would very much appreciated.
Hi Dan,

I have closed down the web-site where I had posted some of the words and pictures from our Mirror 16 restoration project. I have copied them here in case they might be helpfulto you...

The obvious repairs needed appeared only slightly more than with Snow White (our previous Mirror 10 project). A few sections of the gunwale, some rusty steel screws to replace, a repaint and possibly new ply on the foredeck. Being only 4mm ply, the floor felt a bit flimsy and it was a big decision whether or not to delve into the bilges. Peering through one of the ports suggested that it might be wise to inspect a bit closer. At first look the starboard side looked the most likely to need work so I cut a larger inspection port under the optimistic assumption that, once our confidence was restored it would be easy to patch.

No prizes for guessing, the more we inspected, worse it looked! Clearly some of the floor webs needed to be replaced. The cockpit seat buoyancy tanks all looked OK. We did a lot of pondering about how to remove (and replace) the floor without starting the major rebuild that would be required if we removed the seats as well. Taking one small step at a time we removed the floor, back to the edge of the seats.

Only then did we discover that the port side was in far worse shape than the starboard, and the centre case was pretty dodgy too. It looked as though the centre board had been wrenched sideways so hard that the floor webs on the port side of it had been smashed – so we took them out too. Somebody had tried to fix the resulting leaks by pouring in, and sloshing around, some “gunk” that looked like thick paint. This took quite a bit of removing but we wanted to make sure we were getting back to the bare wood as much as possible.

There had been a few other 'bodgie' repairs where someone had tried to repair the floor webs without removing the floor. I'm really glad I opened her right up so I could inspect properly, repair with confidence and add suitable reinforcements where needed.

Some of the aft floor webs had also been damaged and separated from the bottom ply. We started by cutting some 19mm timber to match the curve of the bottom and patched up the less damaged webs as you can see in the picture.

The patches on the bottom were a bit rough, but appeared sound so we left them undisturbed.

The next critical task was to replace the centre-case and this was quite tricky, as we had to make sure of a good fit with the bottom, the for-and-aft spine, and the webs retained on the starboard side.

Not surprisingly there was a lot of fiddling about building up the centre case and fitting it to the centreboard with the novel hinge arrangement used in the mirror. We had to mock it up several times before re-fitting it in the boat. In the process we discovered that it was very easy to get painted (or should I say epoxied?) into a corner if everything wasn’t assembled in precisely the correct order. I had a few practice runs before mixing the epoxy and going for it. Preparation paid off and it all fitted together really well. And didn’t leak afterwards.

Before fitting the centre case I had cut new floor webs and included these in my practice assembly runs. At the suggestion of an other, more experienced Mirror 16 owner, I left more ply and simply cut round holes for ventilation and a little weight reduction. I also used 6mm in place of 4mm ply.

Next question. How to re-fit the floor securely given that it can only butt against the bottom edge of the existing buoyancy tanks?

Not shown in the sketch above was a 19x19mm batten along the inside bottom of the buoyancy tank and a 12mm batten along the top edge of each web. Firstly I fitted a new 19x19mm batten on the outside of the tank along the full length of the cockpit. This was screwed through the ply into the batten inside the compartment. It was also screwed down into the batten on the top edge of the web. The webs are 300mm apart so I then cut about 25, 300mm lengths of 38x12mm, with ends cut to mach the angle between the side and each web. I then screwed down through the new 19x19mm batten into the new 38x12 clamp. When this was all glued and screwed in place it formed a strong “girder” that bound together the rather doubtful remaining edges of the existing floor and provided a solid base to which the new floor could be attached. Again, I had a few practice runs screwing it together dry to make sure it all worked.

At this stage we (the missus actually) primed the inside and we did a secret trial launch to check for any leaks before re-fitting the floor. No leaks around the centre-case but a bit more work had to be done on the transom.

It seemed sensible to make the new floor out of 9mm ply. It was a bit tricky cutting this to a precise fit but at least we now had a sound foundation to work to.

After doing all this, it was relatively easy to repair he transom, replace the foredeck and fix parts of the gunwale.

All this work was done with her on the trailer, which made it easy. However, painting required that she be turned over. Help from a few friends made light work of this and freed up the trailer for some much needed repairs.

goolawah

12-03-2008, 05:20 AM

The Fold up oars in that photo look like the piece in the middle would come off the upper or lower end of the oar. It looks strong but also heavy. Like bronze or steel.
I believe 1/4" thick aluminum would work though. I'd sure like to see it close up.
The owner of that boat is in the UK. I haven't heard from him for some time but have now emailed him to let him know of your inquiry.

Let's see if he can give you some more info...

danp

12-05-2008, 06:19 AM

Thanks for posting that John. I think I will take a similar approach, except it looks like water has pooled under the seats in a couple of places and rotted the floor (there are at least 2 holes under there). I was thinking of somehow taking out the seats then taking out as much of the floor as I can before I do the floor webs and check the centreboard casing. Will taking the seats out create huge problems?

Rod, I'll see if I can get those measurements for you over the weekend. Feel free to come over anytime you need to measure something.

goolawah

12-05-2008, 06:52 AM

I was thinking of somehow taking out the seats then taking out as much of the floor as I can before I do the floor webs and check the centreboard casing. Will taking the seats out create huge problems?
I don't think so. It might affect the approach you take. If there had been any sign of rot in Lulubelle's seats, or then floor under them, I think I would have replaced them. You only want to do this job once and it doesn't seem worth economising on a bit of ply, then wasting the greater cost of epoxy and paint when you have to repeat work that wan't done properly the first time.

If you remove the seats it means you can also replace the whole floor. If any seat components get damaged in the dismantling you can still use them as a pattern for a replacement.

I found the most difficult and unpleasant task was ripping out the doubtful stuff. Often it was not obviously rotten, but had deterorated and various ways (mostly de-laminating). The difficulty was making the judgment 'how far do I go?'.

Once the junk was removed I enjoyed the work of fitting new frames, centreboard and floor panels. It was pretty awkward fitting the replacement floor webs where they went under the seats. With the benefit of hindsight I would probaly be a bit more ruthless. We will probably have to replace the outer skin sometime but, without plans, it would have been difficult to do the inside and outside at the same time.

Now that Rod has progressed the plans so far you have a 'plan B'. If it all gets too hard you can simply build a new hull.

danp

12-06-2008, 08:38 PM

Hi Rod,

For the centreboard thickness I have 19mm. The width of the centreboard case slot is 25mm (in the centreboard case assembly that's above the floor).

Ozducati

12-07-2008, 07:27 AM

Thanks for the dimensions Dan. I will get in contact with again when I get to the gunwales and inwales to confirm the stock sizes of these parts,

I have made a bit of progress in between running around over the weekend.

One thing that I am wondering about..... the third set of floor webs back from the bow on the original Mirror 16 did not have the ventilation (or weight reducing) holes like the remaining webs. Does anyone have any idea why this was so?

goolawah

12-07-2008, 03:07 PM

One thing that I am wondering about..... the third set of floor webs back from the bow on the original Mirror 16 did not have the ventilation (or weight reducing) holes like the remaining webs. Does anyone have any idea why this was so?I believe it was to provide separate bouyancy compartments. If you managed to punch a hole in the (4mm ply) outer skin you would only lose 1/4 of the total under-floor bouyancy. There should still be limber holes in all of the floor webs to allow drainage through the drain ports in the transom. I know some M16 owners fit the limber holes in the two solid webs with bungs which they can remove via an access port if necessary.

Also, I would suggest finishing the corners of the floor web apertures with quite a big radius.

goolawah

12-07-2008, 03:22 PM

I have made a bit of progress in between running around over the weekend.The 'virtual model' is looking great Rod!
I haven't checked the centreboard/case dimensions yet as I have been reluctant to remove the tarp from Lulubelle with all this rain threatening. I'm sure Dan's dimensions will be right.

When I do get to it, there are a couple of other details I'll try to sketch out. I made a small change in the assembly of the centre-case to the forward and aft spine sections. Also, it is going to be important to get precise details of the pivot fitting. Perhaps a photograph of that might be useful.

Would it be OK to include your pictures in the next WBAQ newsletter?

Ozducati

12-08-2008, 06:22 AM

G'day John,
Feel free to include the images in the newsletter. The other boys might have some useful suggestions/critique. When does the next issue 'go to press'?
I haven't put rads on anything yet... I'll get the basic shapes and then go back to refine the detail.
I know a guy who works in the laser cutting business... might be expedient when it comes to making the real thing (cost notwithstanding).

I scored some 2mm thick card from work that gets thrown out along with other packaging. This stuff comes in varying sizes up to about 6ft long x 3ft wide. I'm thinking of using this for the model and doing it to a 1/4 scale (4ft long). If the model turns out looking half decent the Wooden Boat Club can have it if you think it could be used to fill an empty space on a shelf somewhere.

The deadline for the plant shutdown (and my redundancy) looks like it's going to be March 31st, so I should have plenty of time on my hands to build the model. Ideally I would like to walk away from Fisher & Paykel and straight into another job, but the way the economy is looking at the moment I don't think that that will be the case.

I impressed myself (but then again, I am easily impressed) with the centreboard slot dimension. I attempted to scale from the pictures in Larry's assembly book and after a few varying results I came up with 26mm average.... Dan measured the size at 25mm... not bad!

I was thinking about your concerns regarding rot, and I remember when I was younger that one of my uncles had a pergola post that was starting to rot where the beam for the rafters was set into it. He gave it a liberal dousing with glycol and that was it.. the rot progressed no further. Maybe you could slosh some around inside Lulubelle, or throw a bag of salt around in there. Just a thought.

goolawah

12-12-2008, 10:54 PM

I received this email from the senior member of the Mirror 16 fleet in the US.

You may recall that some time ago I gave my granddaughter a Mirror 16 Dream Come True, the white hull in the photo which we purchased in 'like new' condition. As the saying goes, "beauty is only skin deep".

The original builder did a poor job. We first learned that a number of the webs in the centerboard area were cracked and broken. We had to open the floor to make repairs. After two season of sailing, may granddaughter discovered some bubbles under the fiberglass cloth covering the hull. We found a lack of adhesion in many areas below the water line. Some of the wood hull covering has rotted and will need to be replaced. It does sail well. She competed in a centerboard class this past season at the local Yacht Club in Kansas in a mixed group using the Portsmouth handicap numbers and won first place for the season. She was the only M16 in the competition.

Bob
Just as well the development of plans is progressing, so that some of these boats can get new hulls.

dream458

12-15-2008, 03:17 PM

Hi Rod,

My name is Katrina, I am the grandaughter mentioned in the thread above. I was looking at your plans, and I was wondering if you were going to round out the corners of the sub-floor ribs, and if not your reason for doing so.

Also, a small update for all on my project...
I found blsiters popping up all over the hull this summer, so I popped them this winter and drained them, then proceeded to peel most of the fiberglass off of the wood. It is very strange, it appears as though the glass was never wetted out with epoxy in the first place because what I am peeling off looks like dry cloth. It is unfornutuate, and I have a rather large hole in the bottom of the hull just forward of the centerboard casing that I need to cut out and fix. Any advice from anyone who has cut pieces out of the hull and put them back would be greatly appreciated because I am really not sure how to go about doing that.

Sorry no pictures, my digital camera hit the dust a while back.

Katrina

goolawah

12-15-2008, 04:33 PM

Hi Katrina, Great to have you contributing to this thread.
It depends a bit on how big the hole is. The approach I would adopt is -

Cut the patch first from ply of the same thickness as the hull. Make it a neat (preferably rectangular) shape that generously covers the area to be patched. Plane the edges to be straight, smooth and slightly beveled.

Fasten the patch firmly to the outside with a few screws (maybe even nuts and bolts if you can get your hand inside).

Trace the shape of the patch onto the hull.

Remove the patch.

Drill a few holes inside the line to allow penetration with a small hand saw. Then cut to shape staying inside, but close to, the line.

Use sharp plane/chisel etc to carefully trim and bevel the hole to match the patch.

Epoxy glue battens (say 1 1/2" by 1/4") inside the hull so that they half-lap across the edge of the hole. Clamp them in place until the glue sets. The more clamps the better. Be sure to wipe off any glue that extrudes into the hole. Otherwise it will be difficult to fit the patch neatly.

When the first lot of glue is set, glue the patch in place and screw through into the battens.

The attached picture will give some idea. These were roughly done by a previous owner of Lulubelle, but you'll get the gist.

dream458

12-15-2008, 04:56 PM

Thanks for the advice, I hadn't thought to put stiffeners behind it, that is a fantastic idea. I wasn't sure how to clamp the final piece into place, and screwing it into somthing that was clamped is a great idea.

One note, howevever, and it is what prompted my earlier question about the floor ribs, is that a rectangular shape is the worst shape to cut out of a rib, and also the worst shape to cut and replace structural pieces (such as the hull) of the boat. The corners of a rectangle create large stress concentrations which will break much sooner under much less load than a curved corner, which is why most aircraft and boat ribs have circular cutouts. It is certainly much easier to cut rectangles, and it may end up that is what I do to make sizing easier... but the way you described making the patch first, then cutting out from the hull will make it much easier to cut a shape with curved edges.

Thanks for the advice, I will keep everyone updated on the progress.

PS- Like the MODYC picture I created for my grandfather? I thought it was pretty clever.... :)

goolawah

12-15-2008, 05:12 PM

You're absolutely right! It would be much better to make it a rectangle (or at least a quadrilateral) with rounded corners.

Rod tells me that the cut-outs in the floor webs of his model is because he 'hasn't put rads on anything yet'. He certainly will do so.

I love the idea of M.O.D.Y.C and have submitted your picture for inclusion in the next issue of our Wooden Boat Association newsletter.

My wife asked me to mention that, if you have to strip old fibreglass, a heat gun is a great help. Full ventilaion and safety gear needed of course.

dream458

12-15-2008, 05:30 PM

Heat gun? I might try it, although you should see how easy it pulled off, especially when it was still damp. It is much more difficult now that it is cold outside and everything has become very brittle. The heat gun might definately help with that.

goolawah

12-16-2008, 04:31 AM

Another point of possibly more general interest.
A year or so back Lulubelle suffered a small but severe 'puncture wound' (due to a sharp rock hidden beneath the surface of a muddy beach) in the outer skin in a spot where I could not reach from inside..:mad:

In that case I made an elongated oval hole to remove the damaged plywood. I then made a patch to perfectly fit the hole. Next was a backing piece the same shape but about 9mm (3.8") bigger all round. I glued the patch to the backing piece to make a sub-assembly. I hammered two carefully positioned, fairly long thin, nails into the patch.:idea:

A bit of epoxy glue around the hole and around the patch and I was able to manipulate it sideways through the oval hole, rotate it 90 degrees, then use the nails to pull it into the hole from the inside until the backing piece stopped against the inside of the hull.:D

(a picture would be worth a thousand words in this case)

dream458

12-16-2008, 10:46 AM

That is how I had thought to do it at first... kind of.... but I have to replace a fairly large piece. I think I will make some makeshift stringers where the patch is to go and secure them with clamps and epoxy before putting the patch in. That way I will have something moderately structural to attach the patch to when the time comes.

Sounds like Lulubelle has been through her fair share of rough times!

Ozducati

12-17-2008, 08:11 AM

Hello Katrina,

The internal corners will be radiused eventually.... After seeing all the grief that people are having with cracked ribs I was thinking of doubling the thickness of the web in this area by laminating a second thickness of 4mm ply.

Your photo of the beached Mirrors is great! The white hull with the lacquered deck is what I envisage for mine when it comes time to build it. It was good to see one in the 'flesh'.

Anyway, back to work.....
Under the corners of the deck where it meets the gunwales is a piece of timber which the Building Instructions refer to as a 'carlin'. Attached picture shows the location of the carlin.
Can someone let me know the dimension of the carlin shown on the second image, please?

Also looked up the definition of 'carlin'....hmmmmm....

ICLYM

12-18-2008, 10:17 AM

G'day ICLYM,
Progress has been slow but steady. I spent some time a few weeks ago down on the Brisbane River where 3 Mirror 16s met up for a day out, and I took the opportunity to meet them at the boat ramp before they set off got a few more measurements from the hulls.
I now have the hull shape defined in CAD and am currently adding in ribs the ribs, bulkhead and other detail.
Once this is complete I will make a 1/4 scale model from the plan to see if it all fits together.

How much work is involved to restore your 'new' Mirror?

Hi Looks like new Foredeck, Transom, repairs to underside of hull near transom, I think I also need to lift cockpit floor and look at state of interior frames plate case etc. I have original trailer mast and mainsail with the boat. I am very interested in your progress with CAD hull design. I have been worked with building small boats using CNC cut ply panels before and I think the structure of the 16 might well lend itself to this process. Have tried to attach pics of boat. Please note I have an original trailer with her!

goolawah

12-18-2008, 03:17 PM

Can someone let me know the dimension of the carlin shown on the second image, please?
Hi Rod,

Attached is pic of carlin (don't recognise it from the definition :P ). Sorry it's not better but it's always tricky getting photo's inside a boat. As you can see the end that fits to the inwale also butts up against the double that backs up the chain plate.

Accuracy may also be slightly compromised by the 'asymptote' (been waiting to use that since high school).

Anyway, by my measurement it is 560mm from the tip that meets the deck beam to the tip that meets the inwale and the doubler, if you get what I mean. I would allow another 10 to 15 mm to the projected end if the doubler wasn't there.

It's 22.5mm thick, +- a bit for glue line between carlin and deck ply.

I hope that helps.

goolawah

12-18-2008, 03:35 PM

Hi Looks like new Foredeck, Transom, repairs to underside of hull near transom, I think I also need to lift cockpit floor and look at state of interior frames plate case etc. I have original trailer mast and mainsail with the boat. I am very interested in your progress with CAD hull design. I have been worked with building small boats using CNC cut ply panels before and I think the structure of the 16 might well lend itself to this process. Have tried to attach pics of boat. Please note I have an original trailer with her!
Hi ICLYM,

Hopefully, you will be encouraged by the fact (revealed in this forum) that you are not alone. I doubt if there's any Mirror 16 owner who doesn't have a similar story to tell. I would defnitely examine under the cockpit floor!

The Mirror 16 was designed to be easy for amateurs to build from a pre-cut kit (there was no other way). The materials back then (Aerodux glue came with the kit) was nowhere near as strong and durable as modern epoxy. Consequently, many have not surived. Those that did have required major recovery work.

Rob's plans open up a new range of possibilities including building direct from plans, making kits and building from them, or restoring an 'old girl' with reference to precise dimensions.

It's certainly a possibility worth considering that you could keep the original trailer, sails and rigging, and build a new hull. Very likely it would produce a better result, with less effort, than going through the restoration process. Unless, of course, you really can't bring yourself to destroy the present hull. (do they still have Guy Fawkes night in the UK? :D )

Ozducati

12-19-2008, 05:02 AM

G'day John,

Thanks for the photo and dimensions. Photo was perfect!

With regards to my model/plans: you could definitely build a boat that would look very much like a Mirror, and would probably pass the Class Measurement rules, but I would be wary of attempting to use one of my panels to replace a damaged item on an original Mirror16. Best bet for replacement would be to 'detach' the old panel as cleanly as possible and use it as a template for the new one. If someone was prepared to completely disassemble their Mirror it would make my job a lot easier (and more accurate). When I finally get this model built I reckon you and I should get together and do a bit of a comparison to your boat so we can see where I have gone wrong.

Man, it was hot here at Cleveland today! It touched on 38 degrees in the factory. I took my engineering team out for a roast lunch at the Alex Hills hotel (only $6.50 when you buy a pot) just for a bit of a break. We have finished work for the year and will be starting back on the 5th of Jan, so I might get the chance to catch up with you (kids are on hols too so depends on what fits in with their entertainment schedule).

We (fitters, sparkys & engineering) were presented with a proposal for a deal to go work in Thailand to help recommission the factory... 4 x six week stints for what works out to be about a 40% paycut. Needless to say none of my guys are over-enthusiastic about the offer and upper management can't understand why no-one wants to go. Apparently we are "opportunists who are holding the company to ransom" :?: :?: :?:

By the way, how many Mirror 16s are on the list now? It seems like every time I log on some one new has posted some info about their boat.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to everyone who reads this and have a happy (and safe) New Year.

ICLYM

12-19-2008, 12:41 PM

goolawah

12-19-2008, 05:53 PM

Hi thanks but I think I have a job to do !! For info please find attached photos of Mirror 10 which is now nearly finished. These old plywood boats have done great service, and I feel it is much easier to restore them than grp boats of a similar age. Hopefully the 16 will make it like the 10 and avoid the Guy Fawkes celebrations and may be there might be some new boats if we all put our heads together. IvanGood on yer mate! I didn't mean to be discouraging. Go for it.:!:

She looks lovely. Launching in the spring?

Absolutely right about the GRP. Nasty stuff to work with.

We started down this path with a failed resoration (named Cinderella, as in Cinderella shall go to the ball!). She was a 21'6" Robert Tucker designed Ballerina bilge keeler in very bad shape. After three years of removing rotted or delaminated plywood, we abandoned her to a practice bonfire by the local fire brigade. Very sad.

Next was a Mirror 10 Snow White which we completed successfully and have now sold. She was a lovely little boat to sail, but too small for two ageing adults to sail comfortably. The Mirror 16 is just to BIG in comparison. Mirror 10s are still a very popular class (particularly in Ireland I believe) and I have a wonderful picture, on the font cover of an Australian Sailing magazine, showing 92 Mirror 10s lined up for the start of their world champs in Hobart Tasmania some years ago.

Being of simpler construction (no under floor webs) Snow White was a good practice run for Lulubelle. And she provided is with a boat to sail during the 15 months we were working on Lulubelle.

Piccies below of Cinderella and Snow White.

dream458

12-26-2008, 04:36 PM

The internal corners will be radiused eventually.... After seeing all the grief that people are having with cracked ribs I was thinking of doubling the thickness of the web in this area by laminating a second thickness of 4mm ply.

Rod,

I think the biggest problem with the old ribs is that they had too much cut out of them... laminating with a second 4mm will probably do it, the other option is to use 6mm ply and cut less out of them in the first place, reduce the number of parts needed to assemble the substructure. When I fixed all my broken ribs, I think I used 6mm ply with some rough circles cut out of them and glued them to the original rib. Havn't had a problem under the floor since...

Mine is the white with the finished deck, it really does justice to the classical nature of the boat. Send me a picture when you are done!

What program are you doing the CAD in? I am an aerospace engineering graduate student so I have access to the programs as well... so I was just wondering. The drawings look great so far!

Katrina

PS- I got a box of clamps for Christmas, so I better get to work fixing Dream Come True !(Hull 458)

goolawah

12-26-2008, 05:06 PM

the other option is to use 6mm ply and cut less out of them in the first place, reduce the number of parts needed to assemble the substructure. When I fixed all my broken ribs, I think I used 6mm ply with some rough circles cut out of them
I absolutely agree with this. I think all of our local (Brisbane) M16s have treated replacement ribs in this way.PS- I got a box of clamps for Christmas, so I better get to work fixing Dream Come True !(Hull 458)Happy New Year Katrina! Never too many clamps, as they say!

Cheers,

thudpucker

12-26-2008, 05:43 PM

I'm wondering if those thin ribs being enclosed in a space that might be damp, warm with no air circulating, didnt weaken the ribs like the beginnins of rot?

goolawah

12-26-2008, 08:04 PM

I'm wondering if those thin ribs being enclosed in a space that might be damp, warm with no air circulating, didnt weaken the ribs like the beginnins of rot?You bet... Coupled with standing on the centre board to right the boat after a capsize, and possibly hitting sand-bars or rocks. It certainly looked as if the centrecase on Lulubelle had been seriously wrenched sideways by some such activity. Given the that the floor webs were probably already weakened by moisture induced rot, it's not surprising that they got smashed.

Having observed the consequences we are careful to drain the bilges after sailing, to keep her under cover to prevent rainwater ingress, and to open the ports we have added to the floor, so that she can dry out easily and quickly.

Another option these days is to thoroughly impregnate the floor webs with epoxy. Probably not an option when M16s were originally built.

Cheers,

Ozducati

12-26-2008, 09:48 PM

G'day Katrina,

I have used a bit of a mix of software to develop the 3D model.
First was Autocad which I used to create a few 2D sketches showing the minimum and maximum material sizes based on the Mirror 16 Class Measurement Form.
The 2D drawings were used to create a 3D framework. A series of splines were then drawn through the measurement points to create the edges of the hull.
I create a text file using the cartesian co-ordinates of the thru-points of the splines and import that into Freeship as marker lines. Once the hull is defined in Freeship I export the undeveloped panels, hull edges, hull surfaces, and stations back into Autocad.

This seems to work well, although I'm not happy with the result as there are a number of curves that can fit thru the designated points, so I have tweaked the curves based on photos. Of the six(?) versions I have created so far there has always been something that doesn't match up with the original Mirror Hull, even though it would pass a Class Measurement.

The best would be to sit a hull on some stands on a flat floor and use a plumb-bob, chalk and rule to take points from the hull. At least then I know it would be spot on.

Using 6mm ply for the would be less mucking around.

Clamps for Christmas!! You must have been good this year...... I only got socks & hankies :(

goolawah

01-02-2009, 04:15 PM

I received the following email, and M16 picture from Barrie Skelcher (http://www.sumplace.abelgratis.com/#mirror_16) of Slaughden Sailing Club (http://www.slaughdensailingclub.co.uk/) in the UK.

Happy New Year. I am tackling the restoration of an old M16 I found in need of some TLC. I have spliced in part of the transom and am now doing the floor on the aft end of the boat. Not being too good with my woodwork I am laying a new floor over the old one. I have not only cut out the rotten bits but also a lot of good ply to give access to the inner bilge, which I have repainted, and also reduce the weight. Thought you might like to see a pic of what under the floor looks like, (if you have not already done so). The webs appear to be at 12 inch intervals.

Regards

Barrie

ICLYM

01-03-2009, 11:57 AM

Hi katrina
I think cut outs in frames should be kept to a minimum, since unless the cut out is well sealed with epoxy, or a very good paint, it is inevitable that water will get into the end grain, and cause the ply to rot/delaminate, especially in the enviroment of the double bottom of a 16.
I appreciate holes must be cut at the centreline in the bottom of the frame to allow for passage of water inside the hull but again it is important to seal the end grain.
I hope this helps.

Ivan

ruahatu

01-10-2009, 06:27 PM

Hello to all,

I'm new to this site but have an old connection to the Mirror 16 Dinghy. My wife was raised with the Dinghy. Her family built the 16 Dream Come True many years ago and now there are three in our extended family. We discussed the need to help rebuild these boats at a recent family reunion. My Wife and I live on Bainbridge Island in the Pacific Northwest, US.

I'm very interested in developing a set of construction patterns for the 16. I have access to the construction manual for this kit via a Brother-in-law. Dream458 (Katrina) is a Niece. Bob who send the photo of the three beached 16 is my Father-in-Law. I'm retired and have built several boats under stitch and glue along with lagstrake. I've seen the posted effort underway with the CAD work. I've started to pull together all the construction data but have no access to CAD data.

Anyway, I'm glad I found you folks. Will be in touch.

Dean (ruahatu)

tsunami2004

01-24-2009, 08:44 PM

Hey mate..not sure if your stil around..I am retired inon a rubber plantation TrangThailand and have recently sold my Vagabond 42 and want to build me a mirror for gunkholing around the islands.Would like to reverse engineer one but not locatable in land of smiles..did you ever put together any plans..been unable to buy or steal any as the one designers keep it to kits..mmm

tsunami2004

01-24-2009, 08:50 PM

Sorry dean new on line with this thread and was replying to an old one I found before i signed up..will be interested to get a look at the plans for the 16..do you intend to market them as i would certainly like a set..
rgds
david

Ozducati

01-25-2009, 05:35 AM

G'day David,

I have done the basic layout and all panel shapes, so I am at the stage where I am ready to build a 1/4 scale model out of 2mm card to check if the panels are a good fit. I probably wont get much of a chance in the next few months as the company I work for is packing up and moving to Rayong Province (maybe you know it?) and I will be looking for a new job!
I dont think I would be marketing the plans... probably just give a copy to whoever wants it. I'll see how the job hunting goes first ;)
Anyway, welcome aboard!... it's good to hear that people are interested in the results of what I'm doing.

goolawah

01-25-2009, 06:13 AM

Just to delve into the history a bit. Before I started messing about with the idea of a reverse engineering project we contacted Holts for permisson, which they willingly gave on the basis that is was a 'non-commercial' venture.

If you wanted to sell he plans you might need to negotiate a more complicated agreement with them.

Barrie Skelcher (http://www.sumplace.abelgratis.com/#mirror_16)is probably the best one to follow this up if necessary.

tsunami2004

01-25-2009, 11:59 PM

Goolawah/Ozducati(biker?): Thanks guys sorry about the job Oz.Rayong not too far away....know what its like lost three IT jobs in Melbourne /Cairns..age and expensive employee i guess .that's la vie..gave up.looking and being interviewed by 25 yr old bimbos....the wife left and I set sail from Singapore to Phuket ..never looked back .well not much..
Look forward to getting access.... to any plans you may develop..lots a time..my Thai wife and I own and and run a 30 odd acre rubber farm here lots of nice hardwood growing here too..gotta get me a saw or two I guess..
take care guys
david

mirror70283

01-28-2009, 03:57 PM

Hi all,

I just joined and thought you might like to know that 261 is sailing in vancouver canada. Originally built by Bell in britian in 1971, shipped to boston, sailed and then wrecked in a collision with a breakwater. Reapiared, and then stored for many years in a garage, gifted to me if I could figure out haw to get it (I did) and after some further restoration now sails and camps around BC. Interestingly the boat came with all the original documantation including letters to and from Bell during purchase negotiations.

Anyhow, we are looking to build another one and were thinking of embarking on much the same process as has been done with respect to plans. So in trade for checking dimensions of my boat against the plans is it possible to get the plans as they are now? Cad software format is prefered, I can plot them at work (engineering co).

My boat is totally stock original, right down to the heavy green canvas dodger and boom tent.

Still not really sure i like the PT boat look of the curved panel at the bow, I wonder if instead of curving the line up to meet the fordeck the boat would look nicer by having the line carry forward and meet the bow, even if another panel would be required. Just athought.....but then it would not be a mirror!

Anyhow, glad to see the interest.

dan

Landlubber

01-28-2009, 04:29 PM

goolawah,

RQYS last few weeks had a few mirrors out there, they all seemed to have fun.

Ozducati

02-03-2009, 02:52 AM

I have started on the model as my darling wife has given her blessing for me to use the dining room table!
So far I have marked and cut out the hull panels and transom, and am working on the spine and underfloor webs. The card I am using is 2mm thick, whick equates to 8mm at 1:4 scale.... I managed to 'split' the card and peel it back until I had a 1mm thick panel to match the scale thickness of the 4mm ply used on the Mirror (make sense?)

I need a couple of sizes for inwales & gunwales. There is no rush for this info as it will be at least a week until I get to these parts.
From the info in the assembly manual the gunwales we made from two strips of timber, one layed over the top of the other, to create the gunwale and the rubbing bead... I need the stock sizes (ie cross-sectional sizes) of these two bits of wood.
The inwales were made in a similar fashion, however the second piece did not run the full length of the inwale. I need these size of these too please.
In both cases, I do not need any lengths.
Any volunteers?

In some photos of Mirror16's the gunwale appears to thinner (vertically) from the rear edge of the foredeck to the stem than it is from the rear of the foredeck to the transom. Can someone enlighten me please as to what is going on with this?

ICLYM

02-08-2009, 09:06 AM

Hi Rod
Have measured my boat which I think is original. Gunwale I think was created from Inch*1/2inch stock both for the inner length of spruce and the outer mahogany strip. I think the tapering towards the bow was for aesthetics.

For the Inwale the strip running the length of the boat, started life at 1 5/8th inch * 1/2 inch. The short strip 1 3/8 inch * 1 inch.

I hope this helps

Ivan

Ozducati

02-09-2009, 06:26 PM

Thanks for that Ivan,
I was wrong about the change in section on the gunwales.... angle of the photo and shadows contrived to make it look as though there was a thicker section.

Too hot to think here at the moment (34degC and 70%+ humidity), but i will be getting back to work on the model soon.

dream458

02-19-2009, 09:08 PM

The best would be to sit a hull on some stands on a flat floor and use a plumb-bob, chalk and rule to take points from the hull. At least then I know it would be spot on.

(

Rod,

FYI I actually do have my Mirror upside down (and fiberglass-less) on my garage floor right now and was planning on doing exactly that (plumb-bob and chalk) for practice as I have another boat that I have to develop a full 3-D model of... I will keep you updated on any progress I make in this regard.

I am just learning how to use Unigraphics, and this is going to turn into a class project for me. Yay for turning it into work I get paid for!

Katrina

Ozducati

04-08-2009, 06:18 AM

G'day Everyone!

Last Thursday was a bit emotional... the last fridge went down the production line and we closed our manufacturing operation in Brisbane. The Site Operations Manager walked along with it and shook everyone's hand and thanked them for their contribution. Most of us signed the last fridge. I think it is going to be auctioned for charity.
Oh well, after 16 years in the one job it's time to move on!
I have done absolutely nothing on the model for the last 2 months....however my persistant efforts in other avenues have paid off and I have been told to expect a letter-of-offer for a NEW JOB(!) in the mail next week.

Katrina- How are the repairs progressing? Did you get my cad file? Was it usable? I would like to get some photos of the hull if you have any.

Manie B

04-08-2009, 08:59 AM

very very sad

we closed our manufacturing operation in Brisbane

and the lousy part is that the light at the end of the tunnel has not come on at all - i am starting to think that the damn light is not there :(

Ozducati

04-08-2009, 07:50 PM

the lousy part is that the light at the end of the tunnel has not come on at all

Be wary of the light at the end of the tunnel.... it could be an oncoming train!!

goolawah

04-11-2009, 04:15 AM

Be wary of the light at the end of the tunnel.... it could be an oncoming train!!
I saw the light at the end of the tunnel, and it was the real thing!
I retired a couple of weeks ago :D

cornishpete

04-22-2009, 12:38 PM

Hello all
whist doing a search for mirror 16's on google i came across this forum. I used to have amirror 16 many years ago in Cornwall and enjoyed may happy hours sailing her. Now I am older and reminising I have been searching for another 16 only to discover that i had quite a rare boat. I dont know what help i can be in regards to helping you all to try and create plans for new 16's to be made but should there be a call for general assistance with this project I would be happy to help. Also has any one though about contacting the relitives of Jack Holt? for in trying to obtain plans for the mosquito class of dinghy my father was able to obtain plans from the designers family. In the meantime i did find this articale that might be of interest to you all http://vads.ac.uk/diad/article.php?title=223&year=1967&article=d.223.29
Additionally if any UK members here of a 16 that is for sale in any condition i would be very gratefull if they would contact me.

goolawah

04-22-2009, 02:59 PM

Also has any one though about contacting the relitives of Jack Holt?
Hi Pete.

Yes, we have made contact with the business currently operated by Holts. We were seeking, and obtained permission to reverse engineer a set of plans for non-commercial use. Other than giving that permission, as owners of the copyright, they have no other interest in the Mirror 16 and, unfortunately, no longer have any design information that might have been useful.

I think there's a pretty good chance you could pick up a Mirror 16 in need of re-furbishment. I suggest you contact Barrie Skelcher through his web-site (http://www.sumplace.abelgratis.com/). Barrie has been maintaining a register of known Mirror 16s.

Cheers,

JT

cornishpete

04-22-2009, 04:49 PM

Sorry for any misunderstanding but rather than the company who have no record it wouldnt be unusual for a designer to have personal copies at home in which case the family might have them. what do you think?
also thankyou for the link i will follow this up.
many thanks and good luck with the project.
Peter

HeatGunner

04-25-2009, 11:20 PM

LOA = 16ft
Beam = 6ft
:

Thanks for the thread, it ended a long search for the right type of dinghy. Now I got a restauration projection for some unknown 1970s mongrel underway which in design and dimensions is near-identical to the Mirror16.

I need to fit a new maststep and support and wonder how far aft from the bow it goes on the Mirror16, and how far in front of the side stays it sits (distances A and B on the sketch).

Thanks again !
HG

Barrie Skelcher

04-26-2009, 04:34 AM

As best as I can estimate A is 63 1/2 inches and B is 18 inches. However if you contact me direct on skelch@sumplace.abelgratis.com I will scan the original measmurment forms and email them to you

Regards

Barrie

thudpucker

04-26-2009, 11:38 AM

:rolleyes: I got a question.
I'm not a wind whiffer. I like the noisey ones that go into the wind with prejudice.:D

You see how long this thread is? 11 Pages.:confused: That makes this little sail boat just about the most popular topic this forum has ever had.

What's so great about this little Sail boat?
Is it bullet proof when in the water? Easy to build? Cheap to own?
what?
I was going to ask if it was faster than others , but in Whiffers, fast is a reletive term.:rolleyes:

I went back and looked at the pictues of the little boat. It's not particulary weather proof. Nowhere to hide when the cold winds whip up the spray etc.

It does not seem to have a Corinthian hull.
What would keep it upright while the wind is laying it over?

I can see you guys really like this little boat. What's to like about it, that's not in some other boat as well?

Landlubber

04-26-2009, 11:49 PM

thudpucker,

The Mirror wa a nice little owner build boat of the late 60's, came from a contest in England run by the "Mirror" newspaper, from what I remember. Thousands of the little suckers were built, many never finished, but the idea at the time was it would be a father and son build and sail, all get cosy together sort of deal, so it was rather well accepted.

They sail OK, they do not have any particularly bad habits, and were originally cheap to build.

So be it....

HeatGunner

04-28-2009, 02:04 AM

@Barrie, thanks for the measurements of mast position, would have gotten it wrong.

ancient kayaker

04-28-2009, 10:07 AM

:p Hey Thud, them whiffers getting you putterphiles interested, eh? If you're feeling serious, maybe I can get my local candle maker to whip up one scented in diesel or gas (your choice) so you can put it on the weather side (that's the opposite side to the one you pee over) so you'll feel more at home:?:

As for me, I can't stand the noise of the water whipping by the hull, so I'm more of a splasher. :cool:

It is a great thread though. The Mirror is a classic indeed.

thudpucker

04-28-2009, 02:21 PM

Waaaaay back in time, another Century in fact, my Hunting partner wanted me to help him build a little sail boat.
To this day I still wonder whether he hit his head, or he just missed his 'wife of extreme wind' !

Landlubber

04-29-2009, 12:39 AM

One must realise, just how close to the truth thudpucker is here friends.

We build boats, often mane them with ladies names, mistresses of the sea they are to us. We are not allowed a real like mistress as "she who must be obeyed" would seriously object usually, so we spend out time and money pampering this stupid bloody boat instead....I guess we have to have something to play with, keeps us all off the streets.

thudpucker

04-29-2009, 01:04 AM

:p :p :D

BigJust

04-29-2009, 10:53 AM

Despite the fact that we lack the plans, we do have a a complete set of measurements and a copy of the building instructions.

You do? How can I get hold of a copy of them to help my restoration project?

mouse

05-17-2009, 08:56 PM

Not Mine!!
There Is A Mirror 16 For Sale On The Msn Groups Site, However I Do Not Yet Know Where In The World That It Is Located, Or Its Number But One Of You May Want Her..
Regards
Terence
send my the price
:D :D :idea: send it to me for free

ancient kayaker

05-18-2009, 12:06 AM

... We are not allowed a real like mistress as "she who must be obeyed" would seriously object usually, so we spend out time and money pampering this stupid bloody boat instead ...

If our wives had any sense they would let us have our mistresses, cheaper than a boat and for te most part a lot safer. Now what was it she was asking me about insurance ...

ratherbsailing

05-19-2009, 08:14 AM

Nice example of the Marauder at this link:

http://classifieds.di-ve.com/classifieds/CPViewItem.asp?ID=316085

Ozducati

05-20-2009, 08:20 AM

I dont know what the boat is in link in the previous post, but it ain't a Mirror 16!

Ozducati

05-25-2009, 05:25 AM

Ladies & Gents,
Check out item number 280349505833 on ebay.com.au
Someone is selling a Mirror 16 and the bidding is up to $105.

goolawah

06-04-2009, 02:07 AM

On 16-17 May Lulubelle took part in the Bribie Island Classic Boat Regatta. The course was the same as on other years (see Google Map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=103562031474563488826.00046a1917d75c6620f92&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=13)). It is always a lovely sail, the weather was great and three Mirror 16s took part. We are hoping that next year we can muster five, which will be something of a record.

Old hands will know that the original Mirror 16 plans included the design for a boom tent, but this designed seemed a bit cramped for two-up. We decided to sleep on board for a couple of nights and came up with our own design using bendy tent poles. See picture attached. It worked really well. We'll definitely be doing that again.

ash4519

06-18-2009, 05:12 AM

Hello.

I have just seen the 522 in fantastic order, someone else has first refusal if they don't have it, its all mine... (have to wait until Sat for this other person to "refuse" it).

This is a photo of the 522.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn160/venom4519/252a75569df10cb4eefeea39983624666dc.jpg

I hope they refuse it, I would love to have this!!

Pete Dennison

06-20-2009, 07:04 PM

Check out my "lifeboat" - yep it's a Mirror!!:)

goolawah

06-20-2009, 09:26 PM

Ah yes, but that's just a Mirror 10. Mirror 16s are a different breed, not mere lifeboats! Here's two Mirror 16s taking on Brisbane's MV Mirimar. This shot was taken on our (motoring) camp cruise up the Brisbane River last weekend.

mirrorpete

10-22-2009, 01:35 PM

I forgot to mention that there is also a mirror forum on msn that we could poach mirror 16 owners from, I posted a couple of threads there and was suprised at the amount of replies I recieved and a couple of good photos there too.
http://groups.msn.com/MirrorDiscussionForum

The Mirror Discussion Forum is no longer on MSN. There is the new URL

http://mirrordiscussforum.multiply.com/

Ozducati

10-30-2009, 05:11 AM

G'day everyone,
I thought I would post a bit of a situation report as I have not been on the boatdesign.net site for a while. So the update is: not much progress on the model.
A morbid sense of deja vu descends upon me as the company that I currently work for closes its Brisbane operation leaving me (and the 18 other staff) redundant. Sound familiar?... well that's probably because the same thing happened to me about six months ago!! I am becoming highly skilled at decommissioning plant and shipping it overseas. Could be a growth industry perhaps???
I should be finishing up around mid to late November and I would like to have a six to eight week break as I have not had a decent break for over two years. Hopefully I can find some time during this period to finish the model, although I do also have some plans to set up a sail and amas on my Hobie Adventure kayak and do some fishing around Moreton Bay.
I daresay that as I progress with the model I will have questions to ask current M16 owners, so please be forthcoming with info if you can manage it.

Thanks to everyone who has helped me this far.