Marine Biodiesel fuels

[Greenseas2]

This is not for the ethanol or methannol using guys, but the folks with small diesel boats. Producing biodiesel fuel for used vegetable cooking oils id a simple process that enable the owners of small to medium sized cruising boats to produce (refine) their own fuel supply. Biodiesel refining is basically de-esterification of vegetable oils that enable it to be used to fuel diesel engines. The simple process not only produces diesel fuel, but also a vauable by-product used by soap and perfume manufacturers...Glycerin. Biodiesel is clean burning and has no sulfur, unlike petroleum diesel and no changes to diesel engines are required to use it. The largest benefit to those who set up a small refinery is that they have totally islolated themselves from the whims of OPEC and major petroeul products producers.
The basic raw materials can come from local area resaurants and bakeries, most of which use vegetable oils in cooking and baking. Lye and a couple other ingredients is easily purchased local as is the refining equipment. Making biodiesel is where small boat owners shine in that if large yacht owners want to use biodiesel, they would have to have a tanker truck to pick up the raw product and another to delivery the fuel in addition to a commercial size refinery and personnel to run it.
The small refinery capabl;e of supplying all of the fuel needed for a medium to small diesel powered power boat, or larger sailboats, plus diesel car can be made in a refinery that comfortably fits on one side of a one car garage . We were recently asked for the "recipe" for biodiesel. It isn't a recipe, but a very simple refining process. For more information, go to Biodiesel.org. There are a lot of small biodiesel refineries popping up around the US. The reason is that biodiesel can be made for about 46 cents a gallon. Small crab and fishing boats are using it and farmers throughout the US have made their own for decades. Bye Bye OPEC!

[Vega]

Bye Bye OPEC!

Very interesting.... but not so easy...I mean the Bye Bye.
Diesel is much cheaper. What are expensive are the taxes over it.
Besides, using that would be illegal around here (it is not that is going to stop me):D

[Greenseas2]

Currently there are no taxes on biodiesel in the US; however, there are tax incentives to both produce it and use it. As far as I can tell there are no adverse affects with diesel engines. In fact, having no sulfur in the fuel will keep the injectors cleaner. The only part I don't care for is heating the used vegetable oil to 150 degrees to be able to work with it. Handlinn the lye also requires caution and precise measuring. Other than that, the process is quite simple.

[Tim B]

There is a guy in the UK who is running a Sunseeker motor-boat on it. As I remember it's a flybridge yacht, so we're talking huge quantities of fuel, but it seems to work. I'm sure you'd find it if you searched.

It's a really good idea.

Tim B.

[SamSam]

but a very simple refining process. For more information, go to Biodiesel.org. There are a lot of small biodiesel refineries popping up around the US.

It's a big site. Is there a nuts and bolts description somewhere describing how to make a 'carport' sized refinery and how to actually do it? Sam

[solrac]

mmmmm.....
not as simple & funny as the propaganda guys at biodiesel.org say, belive me, (I do work for a Petroleum Company)
recognize it's cheaper to produce, (if you can find a free surce provider)
recognize it even has better results than Petroleum Diesel fuel (has no sulphur as stated)
not sure the mileage per gallon compared to Petroleum Diesel... it's not still been tested enough...
but something I would'nt ever recognize, is the fact that the process is simple, the precision needed at the refinig process is quite far from a home made can & two or three pieces of tubing...
the de-esterification is a high temperature process of a flammable material with the aggregate of some volatile chemicals, and finally, the resulting product (home made one) may still have slight contents of greases,(glycerine still is a grease) that probably (surely) will end at the injectors. a engine boat is something you can not exit & push it down the street when it refuses to start...
Also, there is no Touring Club available 10 miles out from coast when something goes wrong with the grease percentage at the injectors....

[Vega]

mmmmm.....
...
the resulting product (home made one) may still have slight contents of greases,(glycerine still is a grease) that probably (surely) will end at the injectors. a engine boat is something you can not exit & push it down the street when it refuses to start...
....

You have a point here:p :p :p

[mattotoole]

Currently there are no taxes on biodiesel in the US; however, there are tax incentives to both produce it and use it. As far as I can tell there are no adverse affects with diesel engines. In fact, having no sulfur in the fuel will keep the injectors cleaner. The only part I don't care for is heating the used vegetable oil to 150 degrees to be able to work with it. Handlinn the lye also requires caution and precise measuring. Other than that, the process is quite simple.

There may be no mechanism to collect taxes on homemade biodiesel in the US, but that doesn't mean you're exempt. It's a gray area where most users are slipping under the radar, but the gov't could crack down at any time.

There are a bunch of places now offering commercial biodiesel to boaters. I'm sure the info is available at www.biodiesel.org (http://www.biodiesel.org).

[Wellydeckhand]

In Indonesia , Pertamina have already starting their history pages investing into mass production and usage of biodiesel program.............. it is said to sell gas oversea to gain foreign + and to use cheap bio-diesel in the country, very funny yes?:(

[Greenseas2]

As with any other processing, you have to pay attention to the de-esterification process and the quality of biodiesel that you refine. There is nothig particularly dangerous about it. I found the process very easy, but too, I'm very careful. Removing the glycerin poses no problems. In running a diesel engine on the stuff for the past year, I haven't found any problems and neither have others who produce and use it. The source of raw materials may be limited in some areas that don't have a lot of restaurants or bakeries to rely on. Best to lock in your sources for a long term if you can. The fact that keeps big refineries at bay is that the collection of raw vegetable oils would be both cumbersome and expensive. This is finally where the little guy has the advantage.

Here in south Florida, it would be some time before the sources dry up unless some big outfit comes in and starts paying for the raw materials. As it stands now, our sources are happy to have someone haul it away and we've established good relations with the sources to protect our interests.

At any rate, for the small refinery biodiesel is a God send and one way to energy independence. No one is flying under the radar tax wise. In fact, there are tax incentives to produce and use biodiesel. I don't know where the false information came from but there are no taxes unless you sell it. Then it is only taxed at the local and state levels and business taxed federally as business income.

There are plenty of web sites on biodiesel production and some from the Deoartment of Energy. We bought books and went with their preliminatry instructions. Most of the equipment can be personally manufactured or purchased if you chose. A mediium refinery can be bought for around $3,000.

[Wellydeckhand]

Here you can buy local CPO for cheap price and combination of US$3,000 backyard medium plant? How much fuel will that product with that package? I mean do you still need diesel to blend with it?:)

[Ari]

I do really love to learn on the process and experience of members who had run this unit.

[Ari]

Here you can buy local CPO for cheap price and combination of US$3,000 backyard medium plant? How much fuel will that product with that package? I mean do you still need diesel to blend with it?:)
PKO is cheaper than CPO. Only the pour point for PKO is very high at about 24 degrees Celcius.Are CPO sold to day a to day buyer there ? or do you need to have special licences to buy it ?

[Wellydeckhand]

PKO is cheaper than CPO. Only the pour point for PKO is very high at about 24 degrees Celcius.Are CPO sold to day a to day buyer there ? or do you need to have special licences to buy it ?

CPO is for food cooking oil, from the first press, the 3rd or 4th press will be a lower quality oil that is not stardard for consumption and would be ideal for biodiesel.

The plantation would sell their crop daily to the factory, the factory will process and produce the raw CPO, alternative Secondary grade can be purchase as long as negociation between company and price is right. My area is second only to Sumatra in term of palm plantaion and processing, dont know the future stats, because kalimantan is expanding fast....... real fast for palm oil industry.:)

By the way enlight me pls on PKO, ok

Wellydeckhand

[Ike]

This is very interesting. I have a couple of questions. When the diesel producers went to low sulfur fuels there were a lot of problems with gaskets in diesel engines adapting to the new fuel. I had to have the head gasket and several other gaskets changed on my diesel car. Would this kind of thing occur if you used biodiesel with practically no sulfur?

What do you do with the by-product, glycerin? You can't just dump it so where does it go?

Also you said a system could be purchased for $3,000 but how much to make your own, and what would you need? Can this be made from common stuff you can buy at a hardware store or what?

Also you said it requires high temperatures. How high? Would this be safe inside a building? Would it set of the sprinklers? (I'm not kidding. Many years ago UL tested a fuel tank for fire resistance inside a large warehouse assuming the sprinkler system would douse the fire. Someone neglected to tell them that the sprinkler system had been shut down by the fire department for some reason. They burned the building down.)

[Guillermo]

...When the diesel producers went to low sulfur fuels there were a lot of problems with gaskets in diesel engines adapting to the new fuel...
Yes. Petroleum diesels are produced now with sulphur contents even under 50 ppm. The process to take the sulphur out from the diesel removes the natural lubricants, so those fuels require the use of specific additives.
Having a look at the specs of biodiesel (http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/BDSpec.PDF), I find there is an S15 Grade specification (15 ppm) for sulphur content. I was also wondering about how this biodiesel performs in engines.
Doing some additional search at biodiesel.org I found this: http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/Lubricity.PDF
It seems biodiesel has natural lubricating properties by itself (The one complying with ASTM D 6751; I don't know about the home made's)and when added to N 2 petroleum diesel in as low as 1%, it provides enough lubricity to avoid concerns with low sulphur.

[Greenseas2]

Biodiesel doesn't have to be mixed with petroeum diesel. As a matter of fact, you will extend the life of your engine by not using petroleum based diesel at all. Here we have replaced engine lube oil with synthetic Mobile 1 also and find that the engine runs both quieter and easier.

[Greenseas2]

Home brewed biodiesel without sulfur content has had no problems. Here we even replace petroleum based lube oil with synthetic Mobile 1 for better performance and longer engine life. At he end of this year, the local Yanmar folks have offered to take the engine apart and rebuild it to see how the biodiesel and synthetic lubricants have affected the engine. We'll know more at that time.

[Greenseas2]

There is a plethora of information on making biodiesel as well as testing on the internet. Just go to either Yahoo.com or AOL.com and type in the word Biodiesel. There also several good books on the subject on the web sites.

[fcfc]

Biodiesel is inexpensive when no one (or nearly no one) is using it. When the manager of the local dunkin donut will see 50 guys a day asking for used cooking oil, he will soon understand that he can make more profit selling used cooking oil than selling donuts. And biodiesel will reach the price of oil. As simple as that.

[Greenseas2]

As I mentioned before, our sources are aware of what we are doing and are quite interested and proud to be part of the process.Additonally, they have seen the proof that it works and are no seriously considering buying diesel cars. There would be a good trade off with them in furnishing some amount of fuel at production costs in return for continued supplies of vegetable oil. Additonally, we have been their customers for a number of years. Loyalty out equals loyalty back. As mentioned earlier in this thread, protect your sources of raw materials. I doubt seriously if we will ever see a Dunkin Donuts biodiesel station pumping the product. For personal car and boat use, a great amount of the vegetable oil is not really needed. We use our car locally and fly on long distance trips. The key idea of biodiesel is that it gives the little guys isloation from OPEC and large petroleum producers. Take your fuel bills and add up the number of gallons that you use annually and you can see how little is really needed.

I'm sure that if we can get an experienced chemist in to the discussion, we will also find that there is a simple process to also use the glycerin by-product as engine lubricating oil, but I'm not prepared to try that one yet. Let it suffice to say that there is a method for car owner and boat owners to become energy independent. That in itself is one huge step. As with any subject, we can inject extremes in the situation to create a negative aspect. With the ability to produce your own fuel at extremely low cost, finding negatives will be equally extremely difficult to find or generate.

[Greenseas2]

As I mentioned before, our sources are aware of what we are doing and are quite interested and proud to be part of the process.Additonally, they have seen the proof that it works and are now seriously considering buying diesel cars. There would be a good trade off with them in furnishing SOME AMOUNT of fuel at production costs in return for continued supplies of vegetable oil. Additonally, we have been their customers for a number of years. Loyalty out equals loyalty back. As mentioned earlier in this thread, protect your sources of raw materials. I doubt seriously if we will ever see a Dunkin Donuts biodiesel staion pumping the product. For personal car and boat use, a great amount of the vegetable oil is not really needed. We use our car locally and fly on long distance trips. The key idea of biodiesel is that it gives the little guys isloation from OPEC and large petroleum producers. Take you fuel bills and add up the number of gallons that you use annually and you can see how little is really needed.

I'm sure that if we can get an experienced chemist in to the discussion, we will also find that there is a simple process to also use the glycerin by-product as engine lubricating oil, but I'm not prepared to rty that one yet. Let it suffice to say that there is a method for car owner and boat owners to become energy independent. That in itself is one huge step. As with any subject, we can inject extremes in the situation to create a negative aspect. With the ability to produce your own fuel at extremely low cost, finding negatives will be equally extremely difficult to find or generate.

[solrac]

On my last post, I emphasized that it's not too simple not too cheap & not too safe to produce the stuff. maybe I was misunderstood, I'm not against biodiesel, just stating that the technology required to obtain an acceptable grade fuel is not on the home made range.
In this country, we have an operational full cycle Biodiesel plant, starting from the plantations on up, to the storage tanks. it has an operative volume of about 3:000.000 lts a month. mainly used for trucks & labour machinery. they are not still comercializing it for small vehicle engines, because of the high dificulties on achieving a high quality de-esterification caused by batch-processing, once they can reach the continuous cycle maybe they will do.
by the way, this is a link to the company page:
http://www.biodiesel-uruguay.com/biodiesel_planta_productora.php

[SamSam]

If you start with 10 gallons of vegtable oil, how much fuel and glycerin and ? do you end up with? How much fuel would be consumed in the process to refine 10 gals.? Sam

[solrac]

not sure exactly, but depending on technology availability & quality of the base oil to refine, think the final energy-eficiency of the process maybe reaches the 70%

[stevel]

The heavy equipment garage at LAX was involved in an experiment on a couple of their generators. They only mixed 20% biodiesel into petrodiesel and got better than a 70% reduction in particulate emissions. It may be worth considering that option if the scale of the operation is prohibitive.

[SheetWise]

For those interested in biodiesel, a great site is biodieselnow.com. The most promising source of fuel seems to be algae -- here's a discussion LINK (http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6775).

[gonzo]

Seems like the more enthusiastic endorsers of biodiesel from waste cooking oil are environmentalists. However, they don't explain what happens to the 30% or so hazardous waste left over. Do you dump it in the sewage?

[Greenseas2]

We havenh't found anywhere close to 30% hazardous waste. Selling the glycerin is a coop type thing and fairly successful. I'm far from being a greenie, but do respect efforts to help people achieve more than a modicum of energy independence. Biodiesel isn't just limited to boats. Other uses are:
HOME HEATING: The are several commercial diesel cabin heaters on the market that can be used in homes. And no diesel smell.
COOKING: Same as heating.
POWER GENERATION: Last year before the hurricanes, a very affluent couple bought a 15 KW generator to power their house after hurricanes and bragged quite loudly about having refrigeration and air conditioning. A week after the first hurricane passed, they were crying the blues because they couldn't get gas for their generator. No electricity at the gas stations. Allen Machine Company advertised two diesel engines in this month's Boats and Harbors. There was a new 23hp Yanmar diesel for $1,900 and an 13 hp Acme diesel. They also sell generators to hook up to the engines. Allenmachineco.com.
REFRIGERATION: Lehman's Hardware in Kidron Ohio sells non-electric refrigerators and other appliance to the Amish who don't believe in using electricity. They have a Servel 8.0 cubic foot refrigerator/freezer that works on keronsene. They're checking with Servel, the manufacturer, about the use of biodiesel in the burner. Lehmans.com
While mass production from used cooking oil may regulate a limited production, other raw materials are available, but at some cost.

[Ari]

I had read a previous thread about using rape seed oil 100% in tractor engine maybe somewhere in Holland.My question is why must the vegetable oil be reprocess. Chances are there is salt and other impurities in the used cooking oil, get rid of it,but why the de alkylation ? Can't it be used straight after washing out the salt and filtering the impurities ? There is a test and observation performed by a company name Elsbet. They used Crude Palm Oil(CPO) to run Elsbet engine in a Mercedes S class body. Sorry doesn't know wether they ever publish their findings.

[Wellydeckhand]

not sure exactly, but depending on technology availability & quality of the base oil to refine, think the final energy-eficiency of the process maybe reaches the 70%

30% left over byproduct still can be use to make soap or grease? It is still economical.

[gonzo]

So it is not so simple then. The byproducts need to either be disposed of or find a buyer for a portion of it. Are you saying that between the glicerin and all the solids in the waste oil the recovery is more than 70%?

[Ari]

Just found this site.Have a look. Now I know the answers to those earlier question put up by me.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#2svo

[Greenseas2]

I think this site will explain most of what you need to know about home biodiesel production. The are several good web sites on the page that have both home refinery as well as professional input. Here we only make about 200 gallons a month for personal use and it's as clear as Cousin Bubba's moonshine...er..ethanol. It's just not that difficult to make.

[solrac]

So it is not so simple then. The byproducts need to either be disposed of or find a buyer for a portion of it. Are you saying that between the glicerin and all the solids in the waste oil the recovery is more than 70%?
yeap, most of the thermodynamic process is around 70% eficiency, but let's go a little deeper:
What means "Thermodynamic efficiency"?
- The biodiesel production, as any other transformation process, needs heat for the de-esterification, (of course, if it consumes more fuel than it produces, better forget it), but not this case.
- The "blending" or mixing the chemicals, require some motor driven mixer, to ensure the perfect dispersion/dillution as possible (the more power, the more perfect mix)
- The "movement" or transportation of liquids during the process requires some "pumping" (you are not so crazy to move heated oil on 160ºC with a spoon) a high temp pump is not peanuts...
The sum of the above energy consumptions may be around 30% of the equivalent fuel produced, no matter what kind of energy each part of the process uses, fuel. electricity, gas, vapour or a guy on a bycicle....
On the other corner of the process, there is a sub-product (glycerine) who still has a commercial value, maybe you can sell it to some soap producer, or even produce your own soap with it... (if the guy acquires your glycerin lives 200kmts out from you, that "energy cost" must be added to the equation also...) :D

[Greenseas2]

Most of the solids are removed during the triple filtering process before you start refining. Good food sold/given to hog farmers locally. They pick it up. The solids shouldn't really be considered part of the refining process. The actual loss of bulk is less.

[gonzo]

Not considering the solid wast as part of the process sound like cheating to show better efficiency.

[solrac]

Not considering the solid wast as part of the process sound like cheating to show better efficiency.
you got the point... :D

[Thors Hammer]

I have been studying biodiesel engines for the past three years and I have found that the idea is one of the plans for the future of marine fuels. The idea is not all that new the Germans in World War 2 used a biodeisel to power many of the war machines and with great success. Now in a world that is heavily controled by the oil companies we the people of the world have a right to know and used this older technology of biodeisel t opower all of our vehicals by this cheap and replenishable resource. The only problem with biodeisel is keeping the fuel from solidifying while stored in the tank. That can be fixed by inserting a heating eliment into the fuel tank. Then there are some small filtering elemnts that must be place in the filler cap. Other than that biodeisel is the best plan if people want to continue boating and driving on the roads and water ways of this planet.

[solrac]

.../ The only problem with biodeisel is keeping the fuel from solidifying while stored in the tank. That can be fixed by inserting a heating eliment into the fuel tank. Then there are some small filtering elemnts that must be place in the filler cap. Other than that biodeisel is the best plan if people want to continue boating and driving on the roads and water ways of this planet.

As stated on an earlier post, you're ststing the same point, it's an excellent fuel, but with some fundamental limitations:
-Good for big engines
-Not too aplicable for small ones, (filter substitution will cost more than you save on fuel)
- Difficult to be home made, or at least, not a good quality final result
- Risky as used on "sensitive" equipment (engines on whom possibly human lives are depending on well functioning)

[safewalrus]

the good thing about this is the fact that it is possible to produce an alternative to the petroleum based fuel used at present. Over which the fuel companies have so much sway! (why do you think it's taken this long to get up and running - As the God of Thunder said above, it was used during the second world war, wasn't that some time ago? so what happened since You guessed it!)

Now come the job of refining the system for everyday use - which the petrol companies won't like but will have to get used to soon! Remember this won't happen overnight, the Internal Combustion Engine wasn't invented and brought to it's present status overnight - what chance has it's fuel? Especially as theres those from certain areas fighting it! We all just got keep at it both for ourselves and the worlds sake! Even if it is only some positive support!

[solrac]

May I introduce another variable on the equation,
from the begining of the petroleum distillation inventions, the Otto & Diesel cycles, (remember, the Diesel cycle was originally used on bio fuel) up to 21 century, the whole process of distilling crude oil to the final gasoline or diesel fuel was based on a very cheap primary product. think it was about 1973 when ARAMCO (known also as the 7 sisters, the association of Arab producers & Multinational Petroleum distribution chain) was created, the crude oil price has rised continuously, not to mention the influence of the great North Dictator in rising the prices as it fits the Northamerican policy, to the fact that nowadays some alternative fuel production can be competitive.
The fact that producing bio fuels with a base price of crude oil on the range of U$S7 /barrel was at least crazy, producing this alternative fuel with a petroleum base price of U$S 70/barrel makes sense now.
Do not blame the Multinationals for things they are not responsible, blame them for the ones they really are...

[Greenseas2]

The biofuels that would cost $70 per gallon to refine are predominently the ethanol and methanol fuels. Biodiesel is significantly less to process (refine). I like the idea of stepping aside when I see the cost of gas and petroleum diesel going sky high today. Even though the base product smells somewhat before refining, it's OK because the knowledge that when a hurricane comes and most others can't get fuel because of power outages at gas station, we can jump in the car a go if necessary and fill up the tank when we get home. There may be some small difficulty that some people may find in making your own biodiesel, but isn't it worth the effort to be totally independent of big petroleum producers? Down here in south Florida, we don't have the biodiesel stabilization problem, but for those that do, the investment in a fuel warmer is well worthwhile. Being able to produce cheap biodiesel is one giant step in favor of energy independence and much the same as putting up the Air-X 403 wind generator after a hurricane when the power grid is down for days. Life is getting back to doing things for yourself rather than trusting big busines or big government to deliver the goods.

[gonzo]

Many modern diesels and turbine engine designed for military puposes are multifuel. This means that a properly designed engine will run on diesel, peanut oil, gas/oil mixure, etc. Why are all this discussion about biodiesel and other non-petroleum fuels presented as if the change was irreversible. The only way to keep prices down is by competition.

[Greenseas2]

The discussion is based on people making their own fuel and not having to deal with merchants or competition. Multifuel engines have been around for a couple of decades, but you don't see many in boats. You don't see the armed services stocking up on peanut oil either. The word multifuel seems nice, but they're still burning petroleum diesel and you and I are paying the price for it. Sorry, I'd rather pay 46 cents a gallon and not have to worry about either merchants or competition.

[solrac]

nice,
the focus point of the discussion migrated to cost/production & efficiency, well... Something that was not taken in account: the price rising of petroleum fuels has nothing to do with demand/offer parity,not even import-parities, nor shortage in production, has much more in common with geopolitics, who will we fight to and why, what profit level will we obtain for invading XXX or YYYY, (countries I mean, whoever they can be), but at our citizen-level, we can do nothing to reduce cost, well, may I ask, what will happen when all of you begin fighting at the McDonald's door to acquire a couple gallons used Mc fried oil? wouldn't the multinational (cause it's a multinational or not? something alike the fuel multi yeah?) begin charging you for their wasted oil? would it still be cheaper than petroleum produced gasoline or diesel?
Just imagine the CNN news about the shortage of used oil in America, & how it's future value affects NYSE? :D

[gonzo]

Nobody "makes" the fuel, but uses different available substances. If you could get petroleum for free then it would be a better comparison. Many people have small operation where they take a few hundred gallons of oil a month from a well in their field. Representing used cooking oil as a solution is inrealistic. It is available and free at the moment because there is no market. The same way as used motor oil or vaseline used to thrown away.

[solrac]

.../Representing used cooking oil as a solution is inrealistic. It is available and free at the moment because there is no market/...
That is exactly what I tried to explain on my last post: "It is available and free at the moment because there is no market"
(sorry, english is not my native language)
As far as I don't also own a petroleum well on my backyard it does not mean I'm screwed (think I am... ):D spent some nights dreaming on changing my name to Abdul, but still no results, nobody on the gulf wants to adopt me...:D :D the closer I've been is working here for a Petroleum Company, where commonly have to deal with statistics on petroleum & alternate fuels, reserves quantification & all the stuff... belive me, (as I stated on first posts, I"M NOT AGAINST BIODIESEL), just trying to clarify my point of view (can be wrong) Still think the same, it's a great posibility, if seriously studied, but not so wonderful as others stated, others that for some reason are trying to sell you the home production of biofuels as the great salvation idea, the most revolutionary & innovative thing since Noah sailed on his ark...:D

[Greenseas2]

Genius: 10% thought, 90 % work......Bejamin Franklin
There are few that are willing to do the work to make biodiesel, and the supply of used cooking oil will end when people stop cooking. First of all, not that many people have diesel cars. Secondly, those that have diesel boats appear happy to leave them at the dock. As with anything else, there is work and an amount of dedication involved in making biodiesel. Sounds as if there are few who have the get-up-and-go attitude required; therefore, it isn't rational to believe that there will be a big run on used cooking oil at MacDonalds or anywhere else. Too, large producers of vegetable oil as well as corporate farms are coming on line rapidly to supply larger refineries. The world of used vegetable oil is, and will be in the foreseeable future, left to the little guys who want to make inexpensive fuel. True, there may be some greenies in the crowd who want cleaner burining fuel for enviromental and health causes, but that's OK too. Small personal refineries are will continue to be healthy,wealthy and wise to those who want energy independence.

[solrac]

Your point:
".../ it isn't rational to believe that there will be a big run on used cooking oil at MacDonalds or anywhere else.../"
would be interesting to check the cost-parity on a couple years from now...
As far as I know, any investment (in this case a home made micro refinnery) is always made on a serious study base, checking all numbers, material availability now & on a near future, projection of it's possible variations due to demmand increase, equipment needed & substitution/repair cost, energy consumption & it's possible cost variation curve projected on medium term, actual & future government charges (depending on country/state, up to now still nonexistent) and so on... for not mentioning a profit percentage (not in this case, where the final product is intended for internal non profit use). Commonly, the ponderate equation af all this "soup of numbers" must end on a possitive number.
May I suggest you are taking the easy road, just making numbers exclusively on the actual basis? what would be the figure a couple years from now with a possible (I say possible, not probable) shortage on oil stock? a sensible increase on energy cost? (due possibly on the continuation of the actual petroleum cost continuous rising) not to mention a possible substitution of the installed engine base for another kind of fuel much more "environmental friendly" or cheaper? (may check the NGV site: http://www.ngv.com/ or some Hydrogen providers sites http://www.ca.sandia.gov/crf/research/combustionEngines/PFI.php (the Wankel rotatory engine cycle fits perfectly for this kind of fuel), or even some still not documented studies about liquid fuel from wood plantations in process by some Petroleum Companies here in the south...), also to mention methanol whose production figures have been increasing on the past years by incredible factors...

[Greenseas2]

You are correct in your statements, and there are a world of possible aternatives. However, Production of biodiesel and the use of it are here and now. It's hard to say what the future holds. It is also true that the process and formulas for production of biodiesel have to be followed carefully, both for safety and to obtain the best possible product. It's still a way for the people who don't want to pay high fuel prices to manufacture their own fuel at a small fraction of the cost of pump prices. Looking at it in another way, raw crude has a finite quantity in nature, biofuels are renewable, and to that end the effort is worthwhile. In both using and refining the biodiesel end prodct, we have found few problems. All except the heater are in-house made from stainless steel picked up for pennies on the dollar from a fabrication plant. The total cost of the refinery was around $950 plus our work and the help of a welder. So far we calculate that we have saved approoxoimately $2,794 on fuel costs for the boat and more for the car. This means thatover an 8 month period, the refinery has paid for itself 2.94 times with 4 months to go for the year. Quality in, quality out.

[gonzo]

First the correct quote is :"Genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" Thomas Edision.
Your numbers don't reflect the real costs, even if the oil is free for now. For example, permits to operate a chemical plant, maintenace, cleanup and disposal of waste, and most important: LABOR. Human energy and time has a monetary value that has to be taken into account.

[Greenseas2]

With anything you will expend energy including putting on your pants in the morning. Some things you just don't apply a dollar figure to. If you did, no one could afford to live. If I spend time sailing, does that mean I have to charge myself captains wages? If I spend time on doing something that will reward me, that's a plus in my favor. Work is work and play is play and making biodiesel is somewhere in between.

[Greenseas2]

PS. Operating your own biodiesel refinery is not considered running a "chemical plant" and there are no restrictions, either local, state or federal. It depends on your point of view, we can also call an egg a chicken, but it's still an egg until it hatches. There are no known permits needed at any level unless you plan to sell the fuel. Nothing said about "bartering" though. Where there's a will, there's always a way. The bit about restriction was already tossed up and out on the thread earlier.

[solrac]

With anything you will expend energy including putting on your pants in the morning. Some things you just don't apply a dollar figure to. If you did, no one could afford to live. If I spend time sailing, does that mean I have to charge myself captains wages? If I spend time on doing something that will reward me, that's a plus in my favor. Work is work and play is play and making biodiesel is somewhere in between.

come on, give us a break... as you run into limits of absurd, also we can... what about a homemade refining process that insumes you most of your daylight labour hours? are you gonna change your life to a night surveillance job because all day is needed for your refinery?:D how are you goin to make a living?:D
Of course, if vegetables are rising it's cost, also can you plant tomatoes in your front garden? even when Goodyear rises the tire costs, will all of us home made our own automobile tires?

Operating your own biodiesel refinery is not considered running a "chemical plant" and there are no restrictions
Still... (may I continue with absurd) untill every citizen in your country have a home refinery on his backyard, that will be the moment for regulations (and taxes of course) don't you think?:D

[hansp77]

Your numbers don't reflect the real costs… Human energy and time has a monetary value that has to be taken into account.

Very true Gonzo,
nonetheless, monetary costs do not reflect the real 'complete' costs either. When one accounts for the earths carrying capacity, and the size of our ecological footprint, and incorporates this sort of accountancy into the bigger social picture and then economic costs, then what can at first appear as a monetary increase in costs, can ecologically and or socially mean the opposite.
The 'green economics' efforts at 'triple bottom line' accountancy follows this rational,

In these modern times (excuse the cliche') what I think is vital is that people (or consumers) begin to become aware of everything that results from their choices, to purchase, to use, to dispose of, etc..
Within a certain line of analysis (Ken Konca et al.), this has been advanced to try to percieve of every act of consumption through the entirety of its 'chain of material provisioning'. This is coupled with the understanding that every production consumes something, and every consumption produces something, at every step along this chain, from extraction of primary resources, through transportation, to refinery, to manufacturing, to packaging, to sale, to use, and to final disposal.
Through this lense, one may begin to look at something like a simple chinese made plastic two dollar shop toy in a totally different way (considering what is consumed and produced along every step along the chain). One may argue that some such things real or total (triple bottom line) cost, begins to far outway their meager monetary cost.
Though this point probably needs no more hammering, one may compare economically cheap white printing paper that has come from a third world country, paying workers minimum wages under dangerous and right-less conditions, made from clear-felled old growth forest, pulped and produced in the cheapest most energy ineficient and most polluting ways (due to a lack of environmentally protetective laws) and transported a huge distance, by logging trucks, by train, by cargo ship, by trucks again, etc, until it finnally reaches the shop that you buy it from:
to
a economically more expensive white printing paper that has been locally produced from plantation (and or recylced) timber, that pays workers a decent living wage, that is pulped and produced in the most energy efficient and least polluting way, and is transported a minimum of distance to reach the shop where you buy it from.

Clearly the first one is economically cheaper. But look at what it consumes, and produces, at every single step along this chain,
then compare this to the second more economically expensive one.

Our problem is that the majority of people do not seem to accept that their choice of purchasing or using something allows, validates and links them to every cause, consequence and repercussion that results from its production, usage and downstream disposal.
This is a hard thing to accept, and a rather depressing thing to think about every time one makes any economic transaction, especially considering that there is most often very little real alternative choice out there.

So, considering the darker side of the fossil fuel industry- painfully in the worlds face (especially Iraq's, but also the 'coalition of the willings') a real alternative to fossil fuels has so much more to be accounted that a simple monetary balance sheet.
That Biodiesel is renuable, made from a recycled product, with cleaner emissions, is produced locally and does not require our governments to rationalise murder, opression and murky geopolitical realpolitiks- all seem like pretty good reasons to consider its use. And if the time comes to consider that a increase in the cost or human labour time above that of the commercially available diesel, may not so easily tip the balance sheet into the red.

P.S. (and sorry if this example is in poor taste- but to Australians and especially Sydneysiders- not that I am one- and Sydney harbour fisherman and seafood eaters- this is particularly revelvant topic at the moment)

How much did it cost to buy a 44 gallon drum of agent orange?

(Did this at all reflect the terrible personal, environmental, social, and economic costs that were to be accrued to the civilians of Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, to the soldiers who sprayed it, or to places such as Homebush Bay in Sydney harbour where Union Carbide Produced it?)

Maybe a bad example, but essentially, the price tag certainly aint everything.


Hans.

[Greenseas2]

Not to worry about absurd, but theres's enough doing the refining that know the importance of the product. Check out the density on Biodiesel.com map.

[Greenseas2]

Read hansp77 disertation.

[solrac]

Read hansp77 disertation.
maybe you can convince your President to change the way he's acting, invest in national USA industries instead of stealing other countries goods for being cheaper to produce than in USA...
excuse me, but the line of thinking of the last posts seems to me a little "fundamentalist"...

[hansp77]

maybe you can convince your President to change the way he's acting, invest in national USA industries instead of stealing other countries goods for being cheaper to produce than in USA...
excuse me, but the line of thinking of the last posts seems to me a little "fundamentalist"...

Well Solrac,
I am not sure I know how I might label this line of thinking..
From your post, I haven't yet quite managed to identify one.
There might be a few conlcusions I could jump to,
but that is never nice, nor usually sound,

You might want to expand a little,
do you mean to imply that the only person who can change the pattern of american investment/consumerism/acceptance of foreign exploitation is old (or I should say young) George Bush. Are we all, or Americans all, that powerless?
Also, he is certainly not my president,
I have not decoded your location, but as to mine, I am from
Australia,
Also, 'fundamentalist' is a pretty loaded term, and after accusing either myself and or Greenseas of this, it would be polite to explain yourself a little more.
Heres your definition: Fundamentalist;
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
Please explain how this shoe fits?
Hans.

[Greenseas2]

Hans, in truth, this subject is not only important to Australians, but to those world wide. Possibly the production is somewhat simplified, but then, it's not complicated either. Using spare time to make fuel beats sitting in ront of the television any time. It is unlikely that there will be a shortage of raw product in the near or long term future and I feel that micro refineries will be here indefinitely. As regards licensing, people still are able to make their own alcohol for personal consumption as well as grow tobacco for their own use. It would be many years before there would be any regulation on making your own fuel as almost all governments are advocating the effort to energy self sufficiency. I know of one place where raw vegetable oil (unrefined) is used to operate a steam engine that was made from a large air compressor. Innovation is definitely the way of the future. Thank you for your input.

[solrac]

hansp: my line of thinking? thought was enough clear for all previous posts... try reading again from the first post.
I apologize if I offended someone, was not my intention, just trying to give my point of view.
From my working experience, stated some arguments & facts I do think are reasonable, even if you don't think the same.

greenseas: "here will be a shortage of raw product in the near or long term future" would recommend you entering http://www.shell.com on the globe section to see how much just one of the 7 sisters has discovered recently on the Caspian Sea...

Think we gone too far here & we (all) are on the edge of begining to disqualify or fight any other, so, better cut this topic here, as no one will convince the other side.
Wish you good luck producing biofuel there as I'll be glad while working on a Petroleum Company here.
by the way, as you have some difficulties decoding my location:
34'54"35"47S - 56'07"48"98W is the center of the pool at the Yacht Club Uruguayo, Puerto del Buceo, Montevideo / Uruguay - South America
cheers

[Vega]

So, considering the darker side of the fossil fuel industry- painfully in the worlds face (especially Iraq's, but also the 'coalition of the willings') a real alternative to fossil fuels has so much more to be accounted that a simple monetary balance sheet.
That Biodiesel is renuable, made from a recycled product, with cleaner emissions, is produced locally and does not require our governments to rationalise murder, opression and murky geopolitical realpolitiks- all seem like pretty good reasons to consider its use. And if the time comes to consider that a increase in the cost or human labour time above that of the commercially available diesel, may not so easily tip the balance sheet into the red.
.

Very good post Hans.

The Brasil example is relevant to this discussion. They have a vast leadership in what concerns Biofuels and renewable energies.

More than 90% of his consumed electrical energy is produced by hydroelectric means.

More than 1/3 of the fuel wasted in cars comes from Biofuels.

http://www.mma.gov.br/ascom/ultimas/index.cfm?id=567

“Alcohol made from sugar cane is becoming the fuel of choice in Brazil. ...
Regular car engines will run fine on a 10 percent blend of alcohol and gasoline. But by using computer sensors that adjust to whatever mix is in the tank, flex car engines run on either ethanol, gasoline, or any combination of the two. And they have been roaring out of dealerships here since Volkswagen sold the first TotalFlex Golf in March 2003.
Today, flex cars are outselling traditional gasoline models. In August, 62 percent of new cars sold were flex, according to industry numbers. "Demand has been unbelievable," says Barry Engle, the new president of Ford Brasil. "I am hard-pressed to think of any other technology that has been such a success so quickly."
Unlike hybrids sold in the US, for example, flex cars sold in Brazil don't cost any more than traditional models. In fact, some models are only available with flex engines now. Ethanol engines use 25 percent more ethanol per mile than gasoline. But ethanol (the alcohol produced by fermenting sugar) usually sells at somewhere between a third to half of the price of gas”

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1007/p05s01-woam.html


“"Flex-fuel" cars, which run on any combination of ethanol and petrol, took 53.6% of the Brazilian market in 2005.
Brazil produced a record 2.4 million vehicles last year, 1.7 million of them for the domestic market.
In all, 866,267 flex-fuel cars were sold in Brazil in 2005 against just 328,379 the year before, ...”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4602972.stm

“In Brazil, ethanol fuel is produced from sugar cane which is a more efficient source of fermentable carbohydrates than corn as well as much easier to grow and process. Brazil has the largest sugarcane crop in the world, which, besides ethanol, also yields sugar, electricity, and industrial heating. Sugar cane growing requires little labor, and government tax and pricing policies have made ethanol production a very lucrative business for big farms. As a consequence, over the last 25 years sugarcane has become one of the main crops grown in the country.

One tonne (1,000 kg) of harvested sugarcane, as shipped to the processing plant, contains about 145 kg of dry fiber (bagasse) and 138 kg of sucrose. Of that, 112 kg can be extracted as sugar, leaving 23 kg in low-valued molasses. If the cane is processed for alcohol, all the sucrose is used, yielding 72 liters of ethanol. Burning the bagasse produces heat for distillation and drying, and (through low-pressure boilers and turbines) about 288 MJ of electricity, of which 180 MJ is used by the plant itself and 108 MJ sold to utilities.
The average cost of production, including farming, transportation and distribution, is US$0.63 per US gallon (US$0.17/L); the gasoline price in the world market is approximately US$ 1.05 per US gallon (US$0.28/L). The alcohol industry, entirely private, has invested heavily in crop improvement and agricultural techniques. As a result, average yearly ethanol yield increased steadily from 300 to 550 m³/km² between 1978 and 2000, or about 3.5% per year.

Some question the viabiliy of biofuels like ethanol as total replacements for gasoline/crude oil. We cannot replace all our food-growing fields with fuel-producing ones. Some authors like George Monbiot fear the marketplace will convert crops to fuel for the rich while the poor starve and biofuels cause environmental problems.”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

[Greenseas2]

Very true on the supply aspect for ethanol. The fear really is that food crops will be displaced by those that ethanol can be made from.

[Greenseas2]

No offense taken and your input is valuable and thought provoking which is good. The petroeum connection was fairly apparent early on the thread. We also can agree to disagree. Thankfully we all aren't of one opinion. Stick around and speak your mind.

[solrac]

The Brasil example is relevant to this discussion. They have a vast leadership in what concerns Biofuels and renewable energies.
More than 1/3 of the fuel wasted in cars comes from Biofuels.

The example you stated is true, really true, but not the only true there, the ethanol consumption as on the automotive industry has experimented a sustained growth for the last 10 years, but the CNG (compressed Natural Gas) has overpassed twice those numbers in Brazil:
http://www.ngv.com/
even in Argentina, the situation (they do not have ethanol) is quite similar:
http://www.argentinaequiposgnc.com.ar/estadisitcasgnc.htm
In our case (Uruguay (we have real some problems here), as we do not produce any fuel, and worst, our consumption matrix is really unbalanced, our automotive fleet is highly disbalanced to diesel, so, for the crude oil we import ftom Far East, we have an excedent of gasolines we are exporting at ex-refinery (import parity price) to some other countries in América & importing diesel from Argentina & Brazil at market price... The Natural Gas quota negotiated with Bolivia is not enough for domestic use, in crude words, we're screwed...
as an example, the gasoline price here is U$1.30/lt (yeah, litter, not gallon!!!) diesel is U$ 1.05/lt. (you think somebody here can honestly be against biofuels? :D :D :D :D )

[Vega]

gasoline price here is U$1.30/lt (yeah, litter, not gallon!!!) diesel is U$ 1.05/lt. (you think somebody here can honestly be against biofuels? :D :D :D :D )

Big deal...you are a lucky guy, here it costs 1,4euros/L, that is $1,7USD/L.:D

[hansp77]

No offence taken Solrac, thanks for the apology- I love a good debate, particularly on issues such as these, and in any debate i most surely value an opinion that is oposite to mine- it gives me something to aim at.
In referring to your line of thought I was making particular reference to the two main points I thought you may have raised, and which I brought up in my last post- (won't bother again)
rather than to your line of thought throughought this entire thread,
this second of which you most clearly possess.
The same to be said about the reasonableness of your arguments and facts.

P.S.
Thank you for decoding that location for me (shamefully I wouldn't know how), it is nice to know to who and from where you are talking to, especially in a conversation like this where place has a lot of relevence.

Vega, very interesting about the ethonal production and usage.
Here ethanol additions in fuels was villified and demonised for a few years, with threats that it would void new car warranties, and that 'dodgy' petrol stations and companies were ruthlessy adding it to make a few bucks.
Then we had a complete government backflip, so that now the percent of ethanol is creeping up, and apparantly now, it will not damage your engine.
I know one thing ecologically about the fermentation of ethanol fuels is that we must account for a significant increase in CO2 emmissions. Possibilities are to capture, compress, and use or store it- after all pure CO2 does have a monetary value- or the holy grail of politicians who advocate the 'do nothing but trust in science argument' of carbon geo-sequestration.
Another option is to have cyclical production units, a rather high infrastructure set up, where the CO2 from fermentation is cycled back to CO2 enrich the air in sun powered hydroponic or glasshouse crops- such as those displaced food crops or good old sugar cane again.

Yeast to rescue again!
What would we do without it.

Gotta go.
Hans.

[Greenseas2]

Hans, The displacement of food crops by biofuel crops may be a real problem in the future, especially when large companies enter the picture for monetary gains only. I think that the Europeans have an answer to the problem, but only to a degree. In Germany there are many large plots of land divided in to family size plots of about a half an acre each. On each plot there is a shed for storing tools along with a small kitchen and toilet. The rest of the plot is devoted to a family garden. This dates back to pre-WWII days and exists today. Not many years ago when I was still in the work force and had 3 kids at home, I had a small 15' x 15' organic garden in the back of our property and used the Japanese intensive gardening method to raise 17 different vegetables. At the end of the season, all plants were pulled up and recycled in the compost pile where left over table food was also added. If major agriculutural lands are dedicated to raising crops for biofuel, such gardening may come back again. Where there's a will, there's a way. On a significantly m,ore important note, people are beginning to realize that the earth has finite limits on being able to support mankind. There's definitely a new awakening. In the interim, being that this forum has international impact, it might be advantageous to develop complete documentation and equipment specification for making biodiesel using plain verbiation that can be understoood by those who haven't had the advantage of advanced education. Descriptive drawings would help. Such a booklet could be easily translated into many languages and be of value to all nations. Your thought?

[hansp77]

being that this forum has international impact, it might be advantageous to develop complete documentation and equipment specification for making biodiesel using plain verbiation that can be understoood by those who haven't had the advantage of advanced education. Descriptive drawings would help. Such a booklet could be easily translated into many languages and be of value to all nations. Your thought?

Sure Greenseas, I think that would be a great idea. There certainly are a lot more people nowdays who want to do something to lower their impact on the planet. There will probably also be a growing range of people who are interested in the technology primarily for economic reasons too. Though as for some sort of deep-fryer-oil-rush, I seriously doubt that there will be a shortage any time soon.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if there were already some booklets available somewhere. Here they call it running your engine on "chip oil" and it is reasonably (though still quite rarely) popular within the alternative cultures and movements. It might be worth checking out some of the health food shops, co-ops, and general 'hippy joints.' When I get a little free time again, in a day or two I will do some research.
Personally I have neither the specific education or technical know how to design such a book myself, do you?
I know a little about organic chemistry and distillation, mainly theory based, but probably not enough.

the old problem about food crops, and the deception of not enough of them, raises the old problem about distribution, and not enough of it. Namely that there is more than enough food being produced in the world today to ensure that no human ever (at present) goes hungry or malnutritioned. If we 1st worlders alone ate just a little less meat, and cut down on the incredibly inneficient process of growing grain and feeding it to livestock to convert it into meat, then that alone would pretty much solve the problem. (please note I am not preaching vegetarianism- I say do what your body wants, me it is mainly vegetable and regularly small amounts of meat)
But hey I can't talk, I am currently digesting a belly full of rump steak and salad, the steak was over an inch thick and as big as a large plate, my girlfriend and I could only eat half...
(My excuse is that I won the meat tray at the pub two days ago- first time in my life, never seen such a pile of meat!)
Better stop now, I am getting rather off the point, deleriously tired and overworked, not to mention fluey, and no doubt to some, innapropriatly political.

Excuse me. (burp)

Hans.

[Greenseas2]

Hans, Be right down to help with the steak. My particular education lead top a degree in applied physics, but like so many other areas, physics is progressive to the point that it's hard to keep up with. My company, Micro Marine Technology Corporation has as a side interest, a publishing house.that may be useful. I believe that developing fact sheets that simplify the refining process and equipment to usable terms for the average person is paramount. Long analysis will lose them. The refining process itself is rather easy and can be defined rather simply. Also, photos and simple graphics would help as a picture is worth a thousand words. I also believe that my own experience with biodiesel production and use might be of some value. Speaking of chip fuel, there's another process that may be of value and one where research is ongoing in the US, the use of wood chips to convert to ethanol. A few years back, in one of the organic processes books, there was an article that caught my attention on hybrid poplar trees. A little more research revealed that they grow up to 30 feet per year and can be densely planted. They're availabl;e through Stark Brothers Nursery and others in this country. Just thoughts. My personal e-mail address is Greenseas2@aol.com. I'll start doing reasearch on simplification of the biodiesel processing and equipment and see how much more information that we can get that might be useful. At present I'm trying to see how by-products of the refining can be used to both incinerate the by-product and be used to heat the raw vegetable oil. Hopefully, I won't burn the house down or cause an explosion that might ruin my day. Might be best to experiment in an open field. Maybe mix a little hydrogen with the glycerin. LOl I was down in Woomera to install the satellite commuications terminal there.

[solrac]

.../ Speaking of chip fuel, there's another process that may be of value and one where research is ongoing in the US, the use of wood chips to convert to ethanol. /...

There was a serious study here in Uruguay, carried by Shell about that fact. about 1991 Shell Uruguay Ltd, formed a joint-venture with Kimmene (Finland Paper productor), began acquiring land, (about 45000ha) and planting trees, as on a parallel line the studies on biomass were carried. To make the tale short, Shell sold out all the explotation to Kimmene first & now it's Botnia (another Finland Paper Co.) the owner, (now in process of construction of a cellulose pulp plant). The biomass study was put aside on a shelf because it was not economically viable... (at least, for the 1991 numbers)

[Greenseas2]

You're right about the studies. Any extraction of cellulose will be expensive and result in a high percentage of waste.

[solrac]

excuse me, maybe I was misunderstood, the study carried out by the multinational (Shell) was about methanol production from wooden chips, it was abandoned for not economically viable. The cellulose pulp plant is in process of construction now... (and the real fight this country is having with Greenpeace now Jeeeesuschrist!!!)

[Greenseas2]

I had to laugh at your comment on GreenPeace. They serve some good causes...at times, but can be a real pain. Has shell done any research on biodiesel production from vegetable oils? Any additional information is valuable. Use of by-products from biodiesel refining is an area that's open for research. It would be great to be able to recycle 100% of the raw material. Information on any purer raw materials would also be valuable to energy production.

[solrac]

I had to laugh at your comment on GreenPeace
laugh? we here haven't found still that fun... they got cut the bridges that comunicate our country with Argentina since december... and the Argentinian govt. has done nothing Our govt. estimates a loss of about 300: U$S.. funny?

Has shell done any research on biodiesel production from vegetable oils? Any additional information is valuable. Use of by-products from biodiesel refining is an area that's open for research. It would be great to be able to recycle 100% of the raw material. Information on any purer raw materials would also be valuable to energy production.

Shell has closed operations here, sold all the network to PetroBras couple months ago, and as I remember, the guy in charge of the project is not anymore on the payroll, he's even not here in the country... think all archives may have gone to London (Shell Centre headquarters). difficult they make them public someday... (never seen a multinational making public some improvement that can go against his profit, have you? :D )

[safewalrus]

Shell doing bio and caring! Don't make me laugh! As a matter of interest I was at Shell Centre (London) the other day when they showed off a car which had supposedly driven around the world (? - the watery bits might have been interesting!) on a small amount of some wonder fuel to prove that it could be done and the great Shell was part of it! Looked good to! when I asked about how much fuel had been wasted on this gimmick in the 'backup' cars (two of em!) I was told this wasn't the point but they wanted to prove that this wonderfull fuel economy was possible! "Yes but how much fuel was wasted" Guess who then got ignored! :(

[solrac]

Shell doing bio and caring! Don't make me laugh! (
haven't said they are the Sisters of Mercy....:D:D indeed, they do made the research, about 1991, but, as global projection of results was not profitable enough, they abbandoned it and continue on petroleum fuels (polluting has more profit) :) :rolleyes: ;)

[Greenseas2]

I didn't realize the situation was that serious with GreenPeace. Can't they be ordered out of the country. Iwasn't laughing at the situation, just your comment was humorous.

[solrac]

intended to be...;)
All issue has it's own compensation, we've had a really quiet summer without all those argentinians around in Punta del Este :D :D :D :D

[EEW]

Just a note about this process... which my brother uses in a Mercedes in AZ and has helped a few folks with as well -1. The fuel lines of many diesel vehicles need to be replaced, as the type of material will deteriorate.
2. This 'formula' is also a very good cleaner... do NOT head straight out. You will need to run the vehicle a few minutes... and it will probably konk out, because the fuel filters will become blocked. Plan on cleaning/changing, which may depend on the age and use of your fuel tanks/lines.
3. The 'soap' residue is great for cleaning, but can be caustic... be careful and rinse thoroughly.
Other sites to look at:
How-to: http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/appleseedprocessor/
How-to & videos: http://biolylye.com/index.htm
Collection of Links: http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/helpfulweblinks.php

[gonzo]

Greenseas2:Refinining oil to make fuel is considered a chemical plant. Operating it in a residential neighborhood is illegal. If you were to post your real location instead of a vague USA, I could quote the laws and regulations for your city.

[CDBarry]

As always, when looking for how to do it at home, go to www.lindsaybks.com (Book # 2069) - order a catalog.

[Greenseas2]

Good points on both sources and fuel lines. The more sources that are available, the better. With marine diesels we haven't had fuel line problems yet, but it's something worth noting and checking. In the past I've cleaned diesel fuel lines but have used straight white vinegar to clean them with. There is no residue. Back to biodiesel production, there are certain processes that can't be ignored or short cut to come out with a quality product. The more information that we can make available to the general public will probably foster even a greater number of home refineries being built. As Solrac pointed out, in figuring production cost, time must be included. I'm retired so the use of my time to make biodiesel isn't important; however, folks who are still in the work force have to time budget and include that time in production costs.

[SamSam]

Producing biodiesel fuel from used vegetable cooking oils id a simple process that enable the owners of small to medium sized cruising boats to produce (refine) their own fuel supply. Biodiesel refining is basically de-esterification of vegetable oils that enable it to be used to fuel diesel engines.

This looks even simpler. No refining. (Popular Mechanics-May 2006) Sam

[Greenseas2]

This is good information. We're just taking the process a couple of steps further so we don't have to rinse the system out with petroleum diesel. The refined vegetable oil is needed for small engines such as diesel boat engines and generators and other diesel motors for different applications. The simpler process that you input is great for warm climates where there are no facilities to heat the vegetable oils for refining.

[Guillermo]

I've asked the guys:

Dear Sirs,
Is your system applicable to boats with diesel engines?
Thanks in advance for your kind reply.

Answer:

Yes it is, it works well with any diesel.
Charles Anderson
www.greasel.com

[Greenseas2]

The Fishermans Coop in Port Salerno, Florida is building biodiesel refinery that is expected to have an output of 150 gallons per day. They are going a little more upscale in using purchased vegetable oil, but figure their cost for production is still well under 90 cents per gallon. The refinery is looking toward future expansion by building a system with a 500 gallon per day output. They have also found a method to use the by-product as the heat source with the help of Florida Atlantic University scientists. We'll check this out and be back with more data on the use of the by-product as fuel for the vat heater. All other components of the refinery are pretty much standard. We just did another 100 gallons here this week.

[Greenseas2]

After a long cruise, one inexpensive way to clean the salt out of your diesel cooling system is to use white vinegar. Just put white vinegar in a 5 gallon bucket, close the sea valave and disconnect the hose from the sea valve. Put the hose in the bucket of vinegar and fire up the engine. Let it run until most of the vinegar is gone. This is also good when storing the boat ashore for the winter and before putting in nontoxic antifreeze.

[mattotoole]

Very true on the supply aspect for ethanol. The fear really is that food crops will be displaced by those that ethanol can be made from.

Many people's fear is that Brazilians are cutting down so much rainforest to grow sugarcane.

[SamSam]

Many people's fear is that Brazilians are cutting down so much rainforest to grow sugarcane.
That is happening in other countries also so they can grow their own brand of "renewable" energy.

"In September, Friends of the Earth published a report about the impact of palm oil production. "Between 1985 and 2000," it found, "the development of oil-palm plantations was responsible for an estimated 87 per cent of deforestation in Malaysia". In Sumatra and Borneo, some 4 million hectares of forest have been converted to palm farms. Now a further 6 million hectares are scheduled for clearance in Malaysia, and 16.5 million in Indonesia.

Almost all the remaining forest is at risk. Even the famous Tanjung Puting national park in Kalimantan is being ripped apart by oil planters. The orangutan is likely to become extinct in the wild. Sumatran rhinos, tigers, gibbons, tapirs, proboscis monkeys and thousands of other species could go the same way. Thousands of indigenous people have been evicted from their lands, and some 500 Indonesians have been tortured when they tried to resist. The forest fires which every so often smother the region in smog are mostly started by the palm growers. The entire region is being turned into a gigantic vegetable oil field."

Here's where that came from...
http://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/pivot/entry.php?id=447
I believe there is just way too many people for the earth to sustain. Utopia is possible, but human beings are only capable of recognising it, they don't have the ability to create it. Sam

[Ari]

That is happening in other countries also so they can grow their own brand of "renewable" energy.

"In September, Friends of the Earth published a report about the impact of palm oil production.
Here's where that came from...
http://www.cicle.org/cicle_content/pivot/entry.php?id=447
I believe there is just way too many people for the earth to sustain. Utopia is possible, but human beings are only capable of recognising it, they don't have the ability to create it. Sam
Don't just believe what you read..come and have a look your self..Palm oil is not for renewable energy..it is for cooking oil..

[Greenseas2]

I think that the bottom line is that everyone will save considerable money (whatever coinage used) by making your own biodiesel. The added incentivee of using cleaner burning and environmentally healthier fuel is definitely worthwhile in cleaning up the atmosphere. Problems that many people who live in ities will find is otaining space to set up a refinery. Other than that, city dwellers have the advantage of having the raw product close at hand. The savings on biodiesel here is reaching significant levels with both car and boat. At least we don't feel restricted in using the boat or car due to fuel costs and it's a darned good feeling to thumb your nose at oil companies. The new toy on order is a diesel generator to provide power during weeks-long huricane power outages this year when gas station pumps can't pump any sort of fuel. Another benefit is an experiment that we tried in using biodiesel in hurricane lamps which work well enough but makes the house smell like a donut factory.....back to scented oils for that one.

[safewalrus]

Greenseas

I'm interested in your use of biodiesel as lampoil! what kind of hurricane lamps? the old style or these new fangled pressure jobs? Could this start a new thread/ideas?

[Greenseas2]

We Used The Old Fashion Lamps With The Wide Wicks. It Burns Ok, But Took Quite Awhile To Get The Wick To Absorb Enough Initially. After That It Was Ok. I Don't Believe There Would Be Enough Interest In It To Start A Thread. Still In All, For 46cents A Gallon There May Be Others Who Want To Use It. You'll Want A Lower Flame To Prevent Smoking Like Any Other Lamp Fuel. We Might Try To Use Biodiesel In Our New Origo 3000 Stove. There's Nothing There That Could Be Damaged And It Would Be Safer Than Alcohol.

[SamSam]

Don't just believe what you read..come and have a look your self..Palm oil is not for renewable energy..it is for cooking oil..

This is from the same place....

But before we celebrate biofuels as an 'eco-conscious' way to drive, perhaps we should consider that tropical rainforests and forests are currently being destroyed to meet the spike in demand for it. Palm oil and soya biomass are the cheapest sources of oil used in the production of biofuels, and both are already amongst the world's major causes of tropical forest destruction. "Largely to meet demand for biofuel, the Indonesian government announced in July 2005 the development of the biggest palm oil plantation in the world which will clear the "Heart of Borneo", the vast areas of tropical rain forest in Kalimantan." (Forests.org)

True or not, I don't know. It seems to me this biofuel solution could be worse than the problem once it gets past the 'homegrown' stage. Bush says we're addicted to oil, this seems like a methadone substitute but no real cure. Sam

[SamSam]

Sort of related to the thread. Is there such a thing as 'bioresins' where you can refine your own laminating resin? Sam

[SeaSpark]

SamSam is right i think we should say goodbye to combustion engines and make the next step.

Quote of my own from "New propulsion sytems for ships" thread:

Combustion engines either piston or turbine, burning bio or other fuels produce waste gases that will never be really clean.

The yachting industry should be one of the first to adopt fuel cell technology. Engines in yachts are expensive anyway because they are not produced in large numbers. Most yachts are expensive compared to the engines that drive them.

[mattotoole]

Don't just believe what you read..come and have a look your self..Palm oil is not for renewable energy..it is for cooking oil..

Worse, it's for all the processed, packaged food we buy at Wal-Mart. Partially hydrogenated oil, etc.

[mattotoole]

Sort of related to the thread. Is there such a thing as 'bioresins' where you can refine your own laminating resin? Sam

I don't know about making your own fiberglass laminating resin, but anything made from oil can be made from bio-oils, with modern chemical processing techniques.

You could certainly make your own varnish or shellac though.

I believe the original "synthetic" Mobil One was refined from some kind of vegetable oil, probably castor oil.

[mattotoole]

I wonder if biodiesel would make diesel stoves and heaters less smelly and sooty, to a point where they're acceptable for yachties?

[Ari]

The best..for your health cooking oil..virgin coconut oil..the price is very stiff..We still cook at home..daily..and I make our very own Coconut Virgin Oil..http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/

[Ari]

http://www.kokonutpacific.com.au/index.html?Biofuel.htm
a lot more site about this topic..

[StianM]

I wonder if biodiesel would make diesel stoves and heaters less smelly and sooty, to a point where they're acceptable for yachties?

Biodiesel will make it worse.
Preheat the diesel would work a litle

[Greenseas2]

Currently there are manufacturers of diesel stoves, mostly for work boats. Biodiesel would work well in these; however, the design of these stoves are old and time proven. What is needed at this time is for someone to develop a small 2 burner stainless steel stove for the recreational boat industry. One about the size of the Origo stoves. After a marketable 2 burner unit is made, then a 4 burner with oven could be made. Modifying a current stove using either alcohol or propane would probably be a mistake. The stove wouldn't need to be pressurize and could be gravity fed. Unlike propane or alcohol, there would be no dangerous fumes to get into the bilges. Deveoping a biodiesel stove would decidedly be a wothwhile effort.

[Greenseas2]

Ari, if there is enough people using coconut oil, getting a reasonable supply of the used cooking oils may be worthwhile in making biodiesel fuel. Recycling is recycling; however, using new coconut oil would push the price of the biodiesel too high to make it and still save over petro diesel fuel.

[solrac]

Nice, but (excuse me) a little weird & absurd demonstration:
Why not going a couple more steps on a kind of environmental friendly life?

the home-made things we can produce let's see:

- Shoes? can't we produce our own home made shoes instead of buying tnem at the store? maybe on some recycled cardboard & poliethilene bags? will save a couple of bucks..:D
- Blankets? maybe the corn leafs we don't eat can be knitted for that use?:D
- Cars? with a liitle skill, all the canned food metal envelopes will make a nice porsche 911?:D

My point (with no offense) is that this line of work is nice, romantic but on long term will not be worthy. This "greenie" way of life goes for individualization, fragmentation of society, as each one of us hides on his own shell, the commerce, exchange, even all kind of interchange based society interaction is goin down. What will be the figure when all of us reach autosuficiency? Certainly won't survive the big Industrial Conglomerates, Companies, Financial System, and so on...
What would we need anymore the concept of "Countries" "politic divisions" Free Trade Agreements" ? economy as we know it will stuck, our employments will end, money will lost its sense.... That is my view of a post-industrial society, more simmilar to the "Bourg" medioeval way of living...
PS> ressembles me some of Gilligan Island tv show...:D :D

[Wellydeckhand]

Does anybody know that the biodesiel could actually eat rubber in long run? fater than present fuel....... just got some info wanna verify it.:)

[Greenseas2]

If those in the petroleum industry are afraid of becoming unemployed, it won't be from biodiesel producers an the individual level.....maybe later by commercial biofuel refineries. 46 cents a gallon for biodiesel still beats paying over $3 at the pump. The savings will buy a lot of rubber gaskets. Take a look at the world crude reserves, country by country, that was published today in the Wall Street Journal....not a whole lot left, and much of that which is left is in politically unstable countries. At any rate, those of us with biodiesel refineries are still ahead of supply and costs by a long distance. I like having the extra money that I'm saving from producing and using biodiesel in both boat and car.

[solrac]

If those in the petroleum industry are afraid of becoming unemployed, it won't be from biodiesel producers an the individual level.....
easy man... that's not the point :)
was just an aproximation on futurology... what will possibly happen when all of us adopt this way of thinking.:D

46 cents a gallon for biodiesel still beats paying over $3 at the pump
Also growing your own tomatoes on your backyard will save you a lot, but that's no reason to spend your weekends carving the land...
Making your clothes from animal furs you've chased also is cheaper than buying Calvin Klein T-Shirts, not discussing that....;)

Take a look at the world crude reserves, country by country, that was published today in the Wall Street Journal....not a whole lot left, and much of that which is left is in politically unstable countries.

Crude reserve estimations published by WS Journal are just the numbers ARAMCO wants the public to know, a clean (no guilty way) method for sustaining the U$70/barrel price...if real numbers got public, the petroleum barrel will drop down to U$20...
You do really think Multinational Petroleum Companies statements are allways true? :D :D :D
Jeeesuschrist..... and the Enron guys are Sisters of Mercy... :D :D :D
About "politically unstable countries" think we must ask ourselves who is "making" them unstable and most important, why...
Maybe can be a little clear: Major part of actual explotations gone on production on a U$25-U$30/barrel base price (1 barrel = 154lts), with costs on about U$15/barrel, and the Companies won a looooot of money on good old times... imagine same cost and a final price of U$70....

By the way, Has any of you think why CIA was the former weapon provider for the Taliban movement? or why the skinny beared guy's family were Georgie's partners at his Texas Petroleum Firm? Quite simple, Afghanistan is the trace route for the major Russian pipeline to Europe, so, The guys in control of the country have the power to put Europe on it's knees...consequences: Old America wins & game over...(yeah, geopolitics sometimes stinks...:cool: )

[SamSam]

If those in the petroleum industry are afraid of becoming unemployed, it won't be from biodiesel producers an the individual level.....maybe later by commercial biofuel refineries.
I think that's true.

46 cents a gallon for biodiesel still beats paying over $3 at the pump. The savings will buy a lot of rubber gaskets.
It will buy the gaskets, but you have to include the cost of labor to replace them and any other damaged parts and their cost.

Take a look at the world crude reserves, country by country, that was published today in the Wall Street Journal....not a whole lot left, and much of that which is left is in politically unstable countries.
I think business and government are both using the same carrot to amass money/power. Be afraid, be very afraid. Of terrorists, of shortages. Your life will not be the same. Any day they will both start beating the global warming drum which they have poo-pooed from the beginning, but is now becoming too obvious to deny.

At any rate, those of us with biodiesel refineries are still ahead of supply and costs by a long distance. I like having the extra money that I'm saving from producing and using biodiesel in both boat and car.
If I had one, I would certainly use it. Then again, I don't have anything that is diesel, so first I would have to sell what I have and re-buy in diesel versions. Hmmm. :( :confused:

[Greenseas2]

The article came from a group of scientists who monitor reserves of many basic items such oil, coal iron ore and so on. Being that I can have no affect on politics, other than vote, I'll just keep focused on biofuels for time being.

[Greenseas2]

Sam. I have to laugh about everyone wanting Bush to do something about the oil prices. While money keeps rolling in to his ol' man's pockets, he'll just continue to play dumbg......or maybe it isn't an act. Still in all, an investment in a diesel car isn't a bad one in that the engine will probably outlast the body if it's taken care of. Alot of VW marine conversions came from rabbits when the body rusted out. One good situation is that those who are currently using biodiesel in their boats, cars and generators aren't worried about fuel prices.

[Vega]

Still in all, an investment in a diesel car isn't a bad one in that the engine will probably outlast the body if it's taken care of. Alot of VW marine conversions came from rabbits when the body rusted out. .

70% (or something like that) of the French cars are diesels and I guess in Europe, diesel car sales are about 50% of the market and growing. I have owned diesel cars for about 20 years and I have felt the huge improvements in those motors.
Today there are racing cars with Diesel engines and if you think that diesel cars are slow, think again. With a gasoline car, to have the same power when you hit the throttle, you have to go down two gears. As you normally do not do that, the diesel car is a lot faster.

[Greenseas2]

According to an article put out bu Hardy Dioesel (China Imports), their 6 hp diesel has the equivalent power of a gas 30 hp engine. I don't know what they are basing this on, but suspect torque.

[Tim B]

Could we differentiate between torque and power please?

Two engines may give the same maximum power but have maximum torque at different RPMs.

Traditionally, Diesels have providedmore torque at low RPM, whereas petrol engines produce more at high RPM. Typically, Diesels operate at upto 2500 - 2800 RPM, whereas petrols operate at 3500 RPM to 4000 RPM.

(Yes I know the engines will spin upto god knows what RPM, I'm refering to typical operating range)

Naturally, it is the job of the gearbox to convert this torque and RPM to useful torque at a sensible RPM for the propellor / wheels etc.

In terms of maximum speed, that is down to the engine performance (ie the fall-off from peak torque at max RPM), and the gearbox providing the correct RPM to the wheels to obtain the maximum speed.

One should be careful not to genaralise about Diesel and Petrol too much. Each system is individually designed, and that should be borne in mind.

Tim B.

[Greenseas2]

I have a lot to learn about the difference in rated horse power and what it ranslates in to in usable horse power.

[Vega]

I have a lot to learn about the difference in rated horse power and what it ranslates in to in usable horse power.


Nah! It is easy to understand. I will try to explain that to you.


Could we differentiate between torque and power please?

Two engines may give the same maximum power but have maximum torque at different RPMs.

Tim B.


Of course, but you forget to say that for the same HP, a diesel engine has a lot more torque, about 2,5X more for the same HP.

Comparing two Ford Focus both with 2,0L engines, a gasoline one and a diesel one:

HP, _Gasoline 145cv at 6000rpm ; Diesel 136cv at 4000rpm

Torque, gasoline, 155nm at 4150rpm ; Diesel 340nm at 2000rpm

"Though the 115bhp 1.8-litre TDCi is worth considering, if you really want to take advantage of the Focus excellent dynamics, the punchy 134bhp 2.0-litre TDCi engine (from £16,295) makes a capable partner. Backed up by a six-speed gearshift, it develops more torque than a Porsche Boxster S. “
This means that as long as you keep the needle in the sweet spot around 2,000rpm, youll have plenty of acceleration in reserve whether its just you at the wheel or even if the car is fully stacked. It gets to 60mph in 9.3 seconds and will hit 125mph where conditions permit. Despite this muscle at the command of your right foot, the 2.0-litre model still manages an average of over 51mpg and emits 148g/km of CO2.”
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/ford-focus-tdci-range-1004539.html

If you have any doubts send me a message, I own a 1,8L sports car 150 hp (gasoline) and a 1,8TDCI (diesel) with 115 hp and I can tell you everything about the efficiency and differences between these types of engines.;)

Now, back to boats:D

[gonzo]

The name "biodiesel" is largely propaganda. It implies some organic substance that is beneficial to the environment. Petroleum is a biofuel. We happen to have to pay for it.

[FAST FRED]

Years ago I tried to develop a Yacht Stove that would not have the dangers of Propane.

The Brits were using Aceteline (like welders use) and its great ,
lighter than air, burns clean and bright in cabin lamps,
BUT the gas bottles are about 100lbs each.
And various countries have endless burocracys , so filling on a cruise is IFFY.


Those that grew up with a "Big Bang" cannon know accetelyne can be made from a powder.

A trip to the library came up with a number of Acceteline Generators that were used for individual apartment complexes as a lighting gas source about 1900.

Could never figure how to run a test unit on sea water (residue) so dropped the idea of being "Stove King" , mfg. to the world.

Perhaps spomeone with a chemistry background could create an EZ to mix fuel?

Diesel stoves ONLY stink when you are directly downwind from the exhaust , like a diesel engine .

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Fred, Diesel stoves run on biodiesel probably wouldn't smell bad, but the smell of french fries might get to you after a while.