Can Chinese Junk actually circumnavigate?

[Wellydeckhand]

It seem a lot of my private time have been using to think about sail yacht, I been looking at alot of different design, suddenly I asked myself of the proberlity of advancement of slim chinese junk with lug rig sail able to do endurance journey circling the world.

I know, that is just a dream but the point is what recent advancement have the Chinese hidden from us about junk boat? Is that all we can find on the web site of countless expired page?

OK, we know the sail is easier to control and can be single driven, the sail itself is more fool proof in term of tear and wear.......... but the hull is big....... meaning more surface area to drag resistant. How slim can the thing get before it loose the characteristic of a junk?

WDH:)

Any info build up would be a boon to the web lack of infomation on Chinese junk discussion.

[Wellydeckhand]

What About the Junk Rig...?

Kasten Marine Design, Inc.

Suitability to Motor Sailors: A motor sailor can make excellent use of the junk rig. A motor sailor can be 100% sailing vessel, as well as being 100% capable under power. There are many other approaches as well, such as that taken by the Gulliver 46, the Greatheart 48 and the Greatheart 60 designs. These types have an emphasis on sail that is more on the order of around 60% to 70%. In other words, the sails are provided primarily for the purpose of auxiliary propulsion, rather than primary propulsion. The sails serve the function of being the "get-home" motive power in the case of engine failure. In addition, the sails provide extra boost while motoring when the wind favors. As a bonus, the sails and rig provide excellent roll dampening. For this purpose, the junk rig is ideal.

Wellydeckhand

[Wellydeckhand]

The Chinese Sail by Brian Platt (http://friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/junk/platt/platt_chinese_sail.html)

[SailDesign]

Welly,
The answer is "Yes"
Steve HTH

[Vega]

Of course, they can and perhaps they had done just that, long ago.
Even if they probably didn't manage that, the Chinese had proven they had strong and seaworty boats...and that was more than 500 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1421_hypothesis
http://www.hnn.us/articles/1308.html

[gonzo]

Blondie circumnavigated in a Folkboat with a junk rig.

[SeaSpark]

Blondie crossed the Atlantic several times with his Jester so did other people after him. A replica is still doing it. Jester never did a circumnavigation.

If anyone needs prove of the circumnavigateability of the junk rig this would be a good example. Not many sensible people would question it anyway.

(edit: link to Jester http://www.jesterinfo.org)

[marshmat]

Henry Pigott circled the world in Glory II, a 19.5 ft junk-rigged Colvic Watson motorsailer. Yes, 19.5 feet. Solo.

[sharpii2]

I think a modified Chinese junk might be the ticket. Everthing about it would stay Chinese except the Western keel and attatched rudder.

The huge Chinese lifting, ballanced rudder, which is also called apon to provide all the leeward resistence, seems to be a Junk's biggest weakness. I have read numerous accounts of them failing. And if it failed off a lee shore, that could really ruin your day. It is all held together with a rudder shaft which is supposed to be light enough to be lifted, since it sticks down way past the bottom of the boat, making it the big weak link in the system.

The nice thing about my proposal is that everything that is not Chinese will be hidden under the waterline.

As for the chinese lug itself, it is probably a much better technology than anyone in the West ever came up with. Particularily when it comes to the quallity of matteriels needed to make it work.

Thats my $0.02.

Bob

[messabout]

Welly;
Thanks for the most imformative exposition on the Chinese boat, sails, and philosophical concept. The mindset of the chinese person is well worth some effort for understanding by the westerner. The Chinese will succede in overwhelming us within the next 50 years, probably less. All one has to do is shop at Wal-Mart to get the general idea. We'd better be paying attention to the way the Chinese think. There is a huge amount of sub standard merchandise, bearing the China label, in the U.S. Our experience with shabby Chinese bread toasters, pocket knives, and cheap watches can lead us to believe that those people are not capable of excellence. That is a grave mistake. Pardon the political commentary please. This forum is about boats.

Welly, your extensive piece was very well done and I appreciate the effort.

[Vega]

That’s what the Portuguese have done (some centuries ago) in Macau.:D
The boat that has resulted from that cross was called a "Lorcha".

A European hull with an oriental rudder and rig.

Believe it or not, in the XVIII and XIX centuries, the navy had several, heavily armed (in Macau) and used them successfully against the pirates .

In the XIX century more than 60 of these boats were based in the Macau port and the boat had started to be built also in Bangkok, Ningpo and Singapura.

The last survivor of its kind is in Portugal. It was an old Navy boat. Its name is Macau.

http://www.ancruzeiros.pt/ancv-macau.html

[Wellydeckhand]

Welly;
Thanks for the most imformative exposition on the Chinese boat, sails, and philosophical concept. The mindset of the chinese person is well worth some effort for understanding by the westerner. The Chinese will succede in overwhelming us within the next 50 years, probably less.

Welly, your extensive piece was very well done and I appreciate the effort.

Heh, Trust me I am scared too. I was born in Indonesia and chinese, doesnt mean we need to buy chinese bad quality, just appriciate the good one will do. I myself will discard bad export just like you......... :)

wellydeckhand

[Wellydeckhand]

It seem blackship got to the east faster than the british eh? But no comment from british on their modification on junk for HongKong?:)

I think, the chinese are trade man and most of the ship are fat and nice for cargo, Zheng He is a great man for his work in ASIA but not known for his speed though, because he carried too much gift.......... the first true mass discount of export?:D:D:D

WDH

[Ari]

It seem blackship got to the east faster than the british eh? But no comment from british on their modification on junk for HongKong?:)

I think, the chinese are trade man and most of the ship are fat and nice for cargo, Zheng He is a great man for his work in ASIA but not known for his speed though, because he carried too much gift.......... the first true mass discount of export?:D:D:D

WDH
One of the gift is the king princess, send over to Malacca/ Melaka..that started the baba and nyonya clan in Malaysia..flourished until today..

[Wellydeckhand]

Alot of Chinese offspring within Asian Kingship blood line........... It is just not the thread to start on one............ it is quite complex........... but we can try the junk ship........... Ari have anybody in Malaysia modify and made a better chinese junk by any chance.:)

wellydeckhand

P.S. This would be a nice thing with your dream of circumnavigate also;)

[Wellydeckhand]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(sailing)

Junk (ship)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Junk (sailing))
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A two-masted junk in Halong Bay.
Enlarge
A two-masted junk in Halong Bay.

A junk is a Chinese sailing vessel. The English name comes from Malay dgong or jong. Junks were originally developed during the Han Dynasty (220 BCE-200 CE) and further evolved to represent one of the most successful ship types in history.

also try this fun site on boat & ship with junk refrence
http://www.abc.se/~pa/bld/shiptype.htm


Contents
[hide]

* 1 Design
o 1.1 Sail plan
o 1.2 Hull design
+ 1.2.1 Rudders
+ 1.2.2 Separate compartments
+ 1.2.3 Leeboards & centerboards
* 2 History
o 2.1 2nd century junks (Han Dynasty)
o 2.2 10th-13th century junks (Song Dynasty)
o 2.3 14th century junks (Yuan Dynasty)
o 2.4 15th-17th century junks (Ming Dynasty)
+ 2.4.1 Expedition of Zheng He
+ 2.4.2 Asian trade
+ 2.4.3 Expulsion of the Dutch from Taiwan
o 2.5 19th century junks (Qing Dynasty)
* 3 See also
* 4 References

Design

Junks are efficient and sturdy ships that were traveling across oceans as early as the 2nd century AD. They incorporated numerous technical advances in sail plan and hull designs that were later adopted in Western shipbuilding.

The historian H. Warington Smith considered the junk as one of the most efficient of ship designs:

"As an engine for carrying man and his commerce upon the high and stormy seas as well as on the vast inland waterways, it is doubtful if any class of vessel is more suited or better adapted to its purpose than the Chinese junk, and it is certain that for flatness of sail and handiness, the Chinese rig is unsurpassed." (H. Warington Smith)

[edit]

Sail plan

The structure and flexibility of the sails make the junk easy to sail, and fast since the sails are not square rigged, i.e. they can be angled when sailing upwind.

The sails are cut elliptically and slightly curved with bamboo inserts (battens), giving them the shape of an airfoil, and permitting them to sail well on any point of sail. The sails can also be easily reefed and adjusted for fullness, to accommodate various wind strengths. The battens also give the sails added strength, and make them more resistant than traditional sails to holing or rot. Junk sails have much in common with the most aerodynamically efficient sails used today in windsurfers or catamarans, although their design can be traced back as early the 3rd century AD.

The rigging is very simple because bamboo is very strong; thus fewer ropes are needed.

The sail-plan is also spread out between multiple masts, allowing for a powerful sail surface, and a good repartition of efforts, an innovation adopted in the West around 1304. The rig is fore-and-aft, allowing for good sailing into the wind.
[edit]

Hull design

Classic junks were built of softwoods – though in Guangdong in teak with multiple compartments accessed by separate hatches and ladders: similar in structure to the interior stem of bamboo. These were not watertight, as is commonly believed, all wrecks so far recovered having limber holes at the base of each bulkhead. The largest junks were built for world exploration in the 1400s, and were around 120 meters in length. (See Zheng He)
[edit]

Rudders
The world's oldest depiction of a rudder. Pottery model of a junk, 1st Century of the Common Era. Kuangchow National Museum (drawing).
Enlarge
The world's oldest depiction of a rudder. Pottery model of a junk, 1st Century of the Common Era. Kuangchow National Museum (drawing).

Junks employed stern-mounted rudders centuries before their adoption in the West, though in fact the rudder origin, form and construction was completely different from that adopted in the West. It was an innovation which permitted the steering of large, high-freeboard ships, though the system of mounting was chronically weak and required large numbers of crew to control in strong weather. The world's oldest known depiction of a stern-mounted rudder can be seen on a pottery model of a junk dating from the 1st Century, though some scholars think this may be a steering oar - a possible interpretation given that the model is of a river boat that was probably towed or poled. By contrast, the West's oldest known stern-mounted rudder can be found on church carvings dating to around 1180.

Also, from sometime in the 13th-15th centuries many junks incorporated "fenestrated rudders" (rudder with holes in them), an innovation adopted in the West in 1901 to decrease the vulnerability of torpedo boats rudders when manoeuvering at high speed. Likewise the Chinese discovery - which probably came about through fortuitous weaknesses in knotted pine - was probably adopted because the reduced stresses helped cope with the weak and vulnerable mountings of junk rudders.
[edit]

Separate compartments

Another characteristic of junks, interior compartments, allowed reinforced the ship structure and reduced the rapidity of flooding in case of holing. The compartments were not watertight, as popular belief has it. All wrecks discovered so far have limber holes, probably for the sensible reason that with early Chinese pump technology and heavy tropical rains, multiple watertight compartments would have been impractical. This innovation was misunderstood in the West in the late 18th century and was not adopted at that time. Later in the 19th century a similar system, but beginning with longitudinal bulkheads, was adopted to strengthen early iron ships to counter hogging and sagging.

Benjamin Franklin wrote in a 1787 letter on the project of mail packets between the United States and France:

"As these vessels are not to be laden with goods, their holds may without inconvenience be divided into separate apartments, after the Chinese manner, and each of these apartments caulked tight so as to keep out water" (Benjamin Franklin, 1787).

In 1795, Sir Samuel Bentham, inspector of dockyards of the Royal Navy, and designer of six new sailing ships, argued for the adoption of "partitions contributing to strength, and securing the ship against foundering, as practiced by the Chinese of the present day". His idea was not adopted. Bentham had been in China in 1782, and he acknowledged that he had got the idea of watertight compartments by looking (obviously not too closely) at Chinese junks there. Bentham was a friend of Isambard Brunel, so it is possible that he had some influence on Brunel's adoption of longitudinal, strengthening bulkheads in the lower deck of the SS Great Britain.
[edit]

Leeboards & centerboards

Leeboards and centerboards, used to stabilize the junk and to improve its capability to sail upwind are documented from a 759 AD book by Li Chuan, an innovation adopted by Portuguese and Dutch ships around 1570.

Other innovations included the square-pallet bilge pump, which were adopted by the West during the 16th century. Junks also relied on the compass for navigational purposes.
[edit]

History

Junks were originally developed during the Han Dynasty (220 BC-200 AD).
[edit]

2nd century junks (Han Dynasty)

The 3rd century book "Strange Things of the South" (南州異物志) by Wan Chen (萬震) describes junks capable of carrying 700 people together with 260 tons of cargo ("more than 10,000 "斛"). He explains the ship's design as follows:

"The four sails do not face directly forward, but are set obliquely, and so arranged that they can all be fixed in the same direction, to receive the wind and to spill it. Those sails which are behind the most windward one receiving the pressure of the wind, throw it from one to the other, so that they all profit from its force. If it is violent, (the sailors) diminish or augment the surface of the sails according to the conditions. This oblique rig, which permits the sails to receive from one another the breath of the wind, obviates the anxiety attendant upon having high masts. Thus these ships sail without avoiding strong winds and dashing waves, by the aid of which they can make great speed" ("Strange Things of the South", Wan Chen, from Robert Temple).

Song junk, 13th century.
Enlarge
Song junk, 13th century.

A 260 AD book by Kang Tai (康泰) also described ships with seven masts, traveling as far as Syria.
[edit]

10th-13th century junks (Song Dynasty)

The great trading dynasty of the Song employed junks extensively. The naval strength of the Song, both mercantile and military, became the backbone of the naval power of the following Yuan dynasty. Particular the Mongol invasions of Japan (1274-1284), as well as the Mongol invasion of Java essentially relied on recently acquired Song naval capabilities. The ship to the right's dimensions are 360'x 110'x 120'.
[edit]

14th century junks (Yuan Dynasty)

The enormous characteristics of the Chinese ships of the Medieval period is described in Chinese sources, and is confirmed by Western travelers to the East, such as Marco Polo, Ibn Battuta and Niccolo Da Conti. According to Ibn Battuta, who visited China in 1347:
A 16th-17th century Qing Dynasty junk, "Fuchuan"
Enlarge
A 16th-17th century Qing Dynasty junk, "Fuchuan"

... We stopped in the port of Calicut, in which there were at the time thirteen Chinese vessels, and disembarked. On the China Sea traveling is done in Chinese ships only, so we shall describe their arrangements. The Chinese vessels are of three kinds; large ships called chunks (junks), middle sized ones called zaws (dhows) and the small ones kakams. The large ships have anything from twelve down to three sails, which are made of bamboo rods plaited into mats. They are never lowered, but turned according to the direction of the wind; at anchor they are left floating in the wind.

A ship carries a complement of a thousand men, six hundred of whom are sailors and four hundred men-at-arms, including archers, men with shields and crossbows, who throw naphtha. Three smaller ones, the "half", the "third" and the "quarter", accompany each large vessel. These vessels are built in the towns of Zaytun (a.k.a Zaitun; today's Quanzhou; 刺桐) and Sin-Kalan. The vessel has four decks and contains rooms, cabins, and saloons for merchants; a cabin has chambers and a lavatory, and can be locked by its occupants.

Depiction of a Chinese junk, Atlantic ship and Mediterranean ship in the 1459 Fra Mauro map. These drawings indicate that Europeans had some knowledge of Chinese junk designs even before they first rounded the Cape of Good Hope in 1487
Enlarge
Depiction of a Chinese junk, Atlantic ship and Mediterranean ship in the 1459 Fra Mauro map. These drawings indicate that Europeans had some knowledge of Chinese junk designs even before they first rounded the Cape of Good Hope in 1487

This is the manner after which they are made; two (parallel) walls of very thick wooden (planking) are raised and across the space between them are placed very thick planks (the bulkheads) secured longitudinally and transversely by means of large nails, each three ells in length. When these walls have thus been built the lower deck is fitted in and the ship is launched before the upper works are finished. (Ibn Battuta).

Niccolo Da Conti in his relations of his travels in Asia between 1419 and 1444, matter-of-factly describes huge junks of about 2,000 tons, more than four times the size of 16th century Western galleons:

They make ships larger than ours, about 2,000 tons in size, with five sails and as many masts. The lower part is made of three decks, so as to better resist storms, which occur frequently. These ships are separated into several compartments, so that if one is touched during a storm, the others remain intact." (Niccolo Da Conti)

[edit]

15th-17th century junks (Ming Dynasty)
[edit]

Expedition of Zheng He
Early 17th century Chinese woodblock print, thought to represent Zheng He's ships
Enlarge
Early 17th century Chinese woodblock print, thought to represent Zheng He's ships

The largest junks ever built were probably those of Admiral Zheng He, for his expeditions in the Indian Ocean. According to Chinese sources, the fleet comprised 30,000 men and over 300 ships at its height.

The 1405 expedition consisted of 27,000 men and 317 ships, composed of:

* "Treasure ships", used by the commander of the fleet and his deputies (Nine-masted junks, about 400 feet long and 160 feet wide).
* "Horse ships", carrying tribute goods and repair material for the fleet(Eight-masted junks, about 339 feet long and 138 feet wide)
* "Supply ships", containing food-staple for the crew (Seven-masted junks, about 257 feet long and 115 feet wide).
* "Troop transports" (Six-masted junks, about 220 feet long and 83 feet wide).
* "Fuchuan warships" (Five-masted junks, about 165 feet long).
* "Patrol boats" (Eight-oared, about 120 feet long).
* "Water tankers", with 1 month supply of fresh water and sustainability.

[edit]

Asian trade
A Chinese junk in Japan, at the beginning of the Sakoku period (1644-1648 Japanese woodblock print)
Enlarge
A Chinese junk in Japan, at the beginning of the Sakoku period (1644-1648 Japanese woodblock print)

Chinese junks were used extensively in Asian trade during the 16th and 17th century, especially to Japan, where they competed with Japanese Red Seal Ships, Portuguese carracks and Dutch galleons, and to Southeast Asia. Richard Cocks, the head of the English trading factory in Hirado, Japan, recorded that 50 to 60 Chinese junks visited Nagasaki in 1612 alone.

These junks were usually three masted, and averaging between 200 and 800 tons in size, the largest ones having around 130 sailors, 130 traders and a sometimes hundreds of passengers.
[edit]

Expulsion of the Dutch from Taiwan

In 1661, a naval fleet of 400 junks and 25.000 men led by the Ming loyalist Zheng Chenggong (Cheng Ch'eng-kung in Wade-Giles, known in the West as Koxinga), arrived in Taiwan to oust the Dutch from Zeelandia. Following a nine month siege, Cheng captured the Dutch fortress Fort Zeelandia. A peace treaty between Koxinga and the Dutch Government was signed at Castle Zeelandia on February 1st 1662, and Taiwan became Koxinga's base for the Kingdom of Tungning.
[edit]

19th century junks (Qing Dynasty)
Junk Keying travelled from China to the United States and England between 1846 to 1848.
Enlarge
Junk Keying travelled from China to the United States and England between 1846 to 1848.

Junks remained considerable in size and played a key role in Asian trade until the 19th century. One of these junks, Keying, sailed from China around the Cape of Good Hope to the United States and England between 1846 and 1848. She testifies to the power of Chinese shipping and shipbuilding at the time of the beginning of industrialization in the West.

The Keying was praised by the English as excellent in sea-worthiness, and practically superior to their own:

"She proved herself an excellent sea-boat; and her powers of weathering a storm equal, if not surpass, those of vessels of British build." (Illustrated London News, 1848)

She was also fast, sailing between Boston and England in 21 days:

"The Keying next visited Boston, whence she sailed direct for London on the 17th of February last, and arrived in St Aubin's Bay, Jersey, on the 15th March, having performed the voyage, from land to land, in 21 days - a short period even for the American packet-ships." (Illustrated London News, 1848)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pottery model of a junk, with the world's first known depiction of a rudder. 1st century CE. Kuangchow Historical Museum (Canton).

Personal drawing, 2005. Released in the Public Domain.

[Ike]

Why mess with a proven concept that was developed over thousands of years? Is it just a need to tinker?

[Ari]

but we can try the junk ship........... Ari have anybody in Malaysia modify and made a better chinese junk by any chance.:)

wellydeckhand

P.S. This would be a nice thing with your dream of circumnavigate also;)
Actually Chinese hull consist of two type of hull.1.The round bottom with keel 2. the flat bottom without keel. Both type had been develop all over the world to so advance a level..A flat bottom barge..round bottom, both end sharp Phinisi..add in cutter and tea clipper bow..overhang stern..Asia..the melting pot of all culture..The sail is different story..only the material had change..the principal is still the same.Previously in Malaysia the sail are made from woven Pandanus leave - Tikar in Malay.

Builders in Malaysia did not built original Chinese hull..They built the more advance level..the result of the melting pot..Thats the type I'am building. The sail will be different. It will be unstayed mast like the type design by Eric Sponberg couple with Chinese soft skin wingsail. Anyway my motor sailor( KLM) will be equip with Yanmar or Mitsubishi engine with 10-15 metric ton fuel capacity. Hopefully should be able to circumnavigate with no refuelling. The bulk of the fuel is for the generators. Madam's want all the comfort on boards..

[Wellydeckhand]

Why mess with a proven concept that was developed over thousands of years? Is it just a need to tinker?

yes, sort of finding the old design and history, then think something new that is Junk yet make it different.:confused: I am confused......... also confucian :cool:

[Wellydeckhand]

I think we can salvage the deck, front and back design and work mainly on the lower hull. It would be fun puttin a bit of wake line and make it glide and save more from the drag.......... I have form a talk to local bugis and Australian boat builder........... maybe will give me clearer view what characteristic the ship might have to entirely transform in term of performance and new look.

I am refering to change the original wooden hull not copy fromsomebody.

[Wellydeckhand]

Err, Found something of a real junk plan in:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yachts2435.htm#SHANGHAI

This yacht was designed a modern interpretation of the junk type for music arranger and composer Mike Hale. She had to be a safe and comfortable cruising yacht with cross channel capability as well as the ability to venture into shallow waters. The hull is of multi-chine shape and is assembled from pre-shaped ply components with fore and aft girders also acting as bunk fronts bilge board cases and locker fronts. She has a large and deep cockpit aft and the cabin is laid out for 2 to live comfortably. The outboard is housed in an aft enclosed well. There are twin bilge boards housed in the bunk/seat fronts so that they do not encroach on the living space. The junk rig may be supplemented with a reacher and all sail controls are led back to the cockpit. LOD 25'5" (7.76m); Beam 8'11" (2.72m); Draft 2'1"/5'4" (0.64/1.62m); Sail Areas - main 244 sq.ft. (22.7 sq.m.), reacher 106 sq.ft. (9.9 sq.m.); Displ. (loaded) 6395 lbs (2900 kg); Ballast 2300 lbs (1043 kg).


It hit me maybe a combo rig of lug sail and other sail will achieve the tear n wear proof of junk sail while retain the fast mast sail of other design:)

wellydeckhand

[Wellydeckhand]

Larger in size may prove useful, maybe the original junk hull should have a longer LOA?



http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_aluminum/ichiban.htm

ICHIBAN
A 33' Aluminum Junk Rig
Brewer Design #154

ICHIBAN is a custom yacht and was designed as a permanent retirement home for a couple with occasional guests.

Her radius bilge aluminum hull is strong and requires only low maintenance, ideal for a retired couple. The fin keel/skeg rudder underbody reduces wetted surface and contributes to good light air performance and an easy helm.

The accommodations are comfortable and homelike, as befits a live-aboard yacht. As well, she has very generous stowage for a vessel of her size and this is essential for a full time retirement home afloat.

Ichiban---sailplan.gif (26442 bytes)
click drawing to see larger image

The unusual rig spreads generous sail area yet it is very easily handled. Setting sail, reefing and tacking are all simplified with the fully battened junk rig so she can be single handed with ease when required. Her owner reports that she performs very well indeed and, though she might give away a point to windward, ICHIBAN makes up for it in off wind speed and the ease of tacking.

All in all, ICHIBAN is worth consideration as she is one couple's answer to long term voyaging and they gave a great deal of thought to their needs. They have voyaged to Central America and the Caribbean with no problems and still find that the rig and general design suits their needs to perfection.

[Wellydeckhand]

Warlock 39 Mk II

http://www.boatdesign.com/warlock.htm

[Wellydeckhand]

http://www.mooseislanddesign.com/breeze37.htm


Breeze 37



Length 38’ 4”

Beam: 10’10”

Draft: 5’11”

Displacement: 15,168 lbs.



Breeze is a light displacement, easy to sail family boat. Her shape is designed for speed and comfort. A bulb for ballast is faired into the keel, which is blended into the hull. A smooth transition between these segments helps reduce turbulence, increases the speed of the boat, and creates a stronger structure. Although her cockpit is at the aft one third of the boat, there is still room for an aft cabin, which is small, but sleeps two comfortably on separate berths. There is nearly two-thirds of the boat designated for the main cabin, which can be laid out to the new owner’s preferences. The sail plan shown on Breeze is a two masted unstayed rig. Though unconventional in appearance it has much to offer the cruising enthusiast. No standing rigging means less windage and drag, fewer possible areas for rig problems, and less weight up high. Sail handling is easy with both the sails being on wishbones, and safer with no boom to hit you in an accidental jibe. The masts would pivot along with the rig, keeping the best airflow at all times at the sail-mast interface. Because the mast pivots, and there are no shrouds in the way, you could sail a bit by the lee and not worry about having to jibe at any particular point. The sail shape shown is battened and highly roached for better aerodynamics.


wellydeckhand:)

P.S. apparently, we can substitute junk sail to the boat well develope design. Personally i loved Moose Island Design

[Wellydeckhand]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_Keying

The Junk Keying (Chinese: 耆英; Pinyin: qíyīng, literally "Elder". English name is based on Cantonese pronunciation) was a Chinese junk which sailed from China around the Cape of Good Hope to the United States and England between 1846 and 1848. She is of particular interest, since she testifies to the power of Chinese shipping and shipbuilding at the time of the beginning of industrialization in the West.

Keying had been purchased in August 1846 in secrecy by English businessmen, who braved a Chinese law prohibiting the sale of Chinese ships to foreigners. She was manned by 30 Chinese and 12 Englishmen, and commanded by the British captain Kellet during her travel.

* Junk Keying left Hong Kong in December 1846.
* She rounded the Cape of Good Hope in March 1847.
* She stopped at St Helena in April 1847.
* She was in New York in July 1847.
* She visited Boston in November 1847.
* She then arrived in England in April 1848

New York visit
”The Bay and Harbor of New York” by Samuel Waugh (1814-1885), depicting the Junk Keying moored in New York harbour in 1847 (watercolor on canvas, c. 1853-1855, Museum of the City of New York).
Enlarge
”The Bay and Harbor of New York” by Samuel Waugh (1814-1885), depicting the Junk Keying moored in New York harbour in 1847 (watercolor on canvas, c. 1853-1855, Museum of the City of New York).

Keying was the first ship from China to visit New York. She moored off the Battery on the southern tip of Manhattan in July 1847, and was received with great fanfare.

The Cantonese crew of Keying were understandably angry as they only signed on for an eight 'month voyage to Singapore and Batavia. Twenty six of them left and at least some of them were 'exhibited' by P.T. Barnum on his version of Keying that he had built in Hoboken (he claimed he had it towed from China).

She stayed several months in New York, and was visited by 4,000 tourists a day, who were paying 25 cents to board the ship and observe its design and crew.

Keying also moored in Boston on November 18th 1847, by the Charles River Bridge, according to the Boston Evening Transcript of 1847. She was visited by many people, with as many as four to five thousand on Thanksgiving


England visit
The medal made for the arrival of the Junk Keying in England.
Enlarge
The medal made for the arrival of the Junk Keying in England.

The Junk visited England on March 1848, and a medal was made in honour of her arrival. The obverse of the medal gives the following account:

”The first junk that ever rounded the Cape of Good Hope, or appeared in British waters. Her dimensions are length 160ft. Depth of hold: 19ft. Burden: 800 tons Chinese measurement. Rudder 7 1/2 tons, mainsail 9 tons. Mainmast 85ft long from deck. The ship is built of teak wood. She sailed from Hong Kong 6th december 1846, arrived in England 27th March 1848, 477 days from Canton. "Captain Kellet", commander."

Illustrated London News article, April 1, 1848.
Enlarge
Illustrated London News article, April 1, 1848.
Illustrated London News, 1848, full article.
Enlarge
Illustrated London News, 1848, full article.

The ship was praised by the English as excellent in sea-worthiness, and practically superior to their own:

"She proved herself an excellent sea-boat; and her powers of weathering a storm equal, if not surpass, those of vessels of British build." (Illustrated London News, 1848)

A storm, occurring on February 28, wrecked her two boats, ripped the foresail, and disabled the hardwood ironbound rudder, which was hung in the Chinese manner without gudgeons or pintles. During the repair of the rudder the second mate drowned.

She was also fast, sailing between Boston and England in 27 days:

"The Keying next visited Boston, whence she sailed direct for London on the 17th of February last, and arrived in St Aubin's Bay, Jersey, on the 15th March, having performed the voyage, from land to land, in 21 days - a short period even for the American packet-ships." (Illustrated London News, 1848)


The Illustrated London News of July 29, 1848 described the visits to the Keying as follows:

"The ROYAL CHINESE JUNK "KEYING" manned by a Chinese Crew. Visitors received by a Mandarin of rank and Chinese Artist of celebrity. Grand Saloon, gorgeously furnished in the most approved style of the Celestial Empire. Collection of Chinese Curiosities, &c. The "Keying" is now open for Exhibition, from Ten to six, in the East India Docks, adjoining the Railway and Steam-boat Pier, Blackwall.—Admission, One Shilling." (The Illustrated London News, 1848)

"ADMISSION, ONE SHILLING.—During the limited period which the ROYAL CHINESE JUNK will remain in London, the charge for admission will be reduced to One Shilling. This most interesting Exhibition, which has been justly called "the greatest novelty in Europe," has been visited by her Majesty the Queen, all the Royal Family, and an immense number of persons, including nearly all the nobility and foreigners of distinction in London. Junk Tickets, including fare and admission, are issued by the Blackwall and Eastern Counties Railways. Omnibuses direct, and conveyance also by Steam-boat from all the Piers between Westminster and Woolwich; fare 4d. Catalogues obtainable only on board, price 6d." (The Illustrated London News, 1848)

Also in The Times:

"There is not a more interesting Exhibition in the vicinity of London than the Chinese Junk: one step across the entrance, and you are in the Chinese world; you have quitted the Thames for the vicinity of Canton." (The Times).

The Keying was towed from London to the river Mersey by the steam tug Shannon, arriving May 14, 1853, anchored off Rock Ferry on the Cheshire shore. On September 29, 1853 the junk was preparing to leave for foreign ports in three weeks. It was dismantled "for research" by Redhead, Harling and Brown.

"The Chinese junk once a most popular attractive exhibition,is now rotting neglected and uncared for on the shore at Tranmere Ferry opposite Liverpool" from Plymouth and Devonport weekly journal,Thursday,December 6 1855
[edit]

Precedents

Junk Keying may not have been quite the first Chinese sailship to round the Cape of Good Hope, since the Venetian monk and cartographer Fra Mauro describes in his 1457 Fra Mauro map the travels of a huge "junk from India" 2,000 miles (3,000 km) into the Atlantic Ocean in 1420. That boat may have been part of the expeditions of Admiral Zheng He.

[Wellydeckhand]

Actually Chinese hull consist of two type of hull.1.The round bottom with keel 2. the flat bottom without keel. Both type had been develop all over the world to so advance a level..A flat bottom barge..round bottom, both end sharp Phinisi..add in cutter and tea clipper bow..overhang stern..Asia..the melting pot of all culture..The sail is different story..only the material had change..the principal is still the same.Previously in Malaysia the sail are made from woven Pandanus leave - Tikar in Malay.

Builders in Malaysia did not built original Chinese hull..They built the more advance level..the result of the melting pot..Thats the type I'am building. The sail will be different. It will be unstayed mast like the type design by Eric Sponberg couple with Chinese soft skin wingsail. Anyway my motor sailor( KLM) will be equip with Yanmar or Mitsubishi engine with 10-15 metric ton fuel capacity. Hopefully should be able to circumnavigate with no refuelling. The bulk of the fuel is for the generators. Madam's want all the comfort on boards..

http://www.naga-pelangi.de/Naga_2/english/index_e.htm


NAGA PELANGI II




The rebirth of a legend: a new ship

On the east coast of the Malay peninsula, in the estuary of the river Terengganu dwell the most highly skilled shipwrights of Malaysia under the palm trees of the small island Pulau Duyong.

For centuries these seafaring boat builders manufactured magnificent wooden craft here. Amongst other vessels they built two types of junk-schooners, legendary far beyond the borders of Malaysia: the PINIS and the BEDAR:


model of a BEDAR model of a PINIS

The ancestors of the Malays once settled the whole of the SE-Asian archipelago, ventured far to the east, to the furthest Polynesian islands and to the west until Africa (Madagascar). These are areas where their descendants live up till today.

With modern ways spreading, the unequalled boatbuilding techniques still practised today in Duyong are endangered. With this archaic art of building wooden boats vanishing, doom seems spelled for this great nautical tradition of the Malay nation.

In 1980 I had a Bedar constructed in Pulau Duyong (pulau = Malay: island), the Naga Pelangi, (Malay: Rainbow Dragon), which was a seaworthy home for my family and me during our travels.


Junk sailing: Naga Pelangi, in the South China Sea, 1998

Naga Pelangi came to be the first indigenous Malay junk to finish a circumnavigation when we returned to her birthplace in 1997, dropping anchor off Pulau Duyong in Kuala Terengganu. I sold this boat in the year 2000 and in April 2003 I started a new project, one that has not been undertaken in over half of a century:

The building of a "perahu besar" (Malay: big boat),
a PINIS of about 70 feet (21 m) over deck.

This website (see: CONSTRUCTION PHOTOS) is the place, where the latest pictures of the works progress will be published. We will be happy to have you accompany us.
Nice hull can cut the water and wave easy,............. one of the good design for a junk.

WDH

[SailDesign]

Google "Galway Blazer" She went around in the early 70s with Bill King.
Steve

[Wellydeckhand]

Dear Fans of Junk design,

The present thread is on the topic of modern junk boat for personal circumnavigation. Although alot of junk design have been made by the chinese, only few are known to the world, as most these ship concerntrate mainly for trade and cargo carrier. To find the best design for good speed and comfort may take abit of finding and discussion.

I see alot of people success journey with their junk and post in other website seem to invite me to show it within this forum. No matter how small is the group interest, infomation still maybe need exchange and comment..... maybe increase our knowledge in the process.

It seem that many link and webside on this topic have bad connection or simply expired ( outside the forum). My fear that all these information might be scattered, that's why I post the info link with the content , just in case the principal content cant be found.( Good for printing anyway)

Sad it may sound, It seem I will not post in this thread anymore, although I had started it.I think I am not knowledge enough and have not a shread of boating idea to start with.

I will still look at the thread for new exciting info and hope fans of such design still emerge among you to fill and make the thread alive. I have no word to say than say good luck.

Wellydeckhand:)

-Junk Rally at August 2006 at Stavanger-

[Mayfly]

Hai,

I am back from the dead, to post on the proud passage of a great person and family on the junk. you can read detail story at:

http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/mfourman/legacy/kft/kft.html

The junk he used and sold was K'ung Fu-tse

other comparation on the colvin junk can be read at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/messages/1201?viscount=100
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/messages/501?viscount=100

[Mayfly]

these are word and thought of Bruce Robert N.A.


http://www.bruceroberts.com/public/HTML/JUNK-1.htm

JUNK RIGS (UK, Australia and Europe) LUG RIGS (USA and Canada)
The Chinese have used these rigs on the rivers and for coastal cruising for thousands of years. What is not so well known it that the not so distant past these junks were much larger and used for long distance passage making voyages.

Some 40 odd years ago Englishman Colonel H. G 'Blondie' Hasler developed a simplified and modernized version of the traditional Junk rig and used in on 'Jester' a boat that was to prove the worth of Hasler's Junk rig designs. During the past few years hundreds of cruising sail boats have been equipped with this rig and it has proven to be a viable alternative to the more popular traditional and modern rigs.

Modern junk rigs are capable of creditable windward performance and can often out-reach and out-run boats fitted with more conventional sail plans. Some of the advantages of the junk rig are, easy to reef, low initial and maintenance costs, lack of standing rigging (less to go wrong), and a certain beauty.

SPRAY 40 'PILOT'

Many Bruce Roberts designs, plans and kits are available featuring the junk rig.The Spray 40 Pilot shown on the left is one of many Spray designs that accept this rig. See below for links to several Spray designs that are available with junk rig option.

All Bruce Roberts Junk rigs come with detailed sheet and halyard layout.

The plans for all junk rigs come with special construction and control line (not shown here) plans and drawings.

Here follows a few thoughts from Robin Blain - of the Junk Rig Association:

I think it is worth emphasizing that the "motion" of a boat with the un-stayed masted junk rig is far more relaxed than a boat with a stayed mast. Crews often tell me they feel less tired at the end of a days sail in their junk rigged boat than they did with their previous Bermudan rigged boat which had a shorter sharper motion. Another important advantage is the quietness of the junk rig due to the sail being fully battened and so preventing sail flapping and the lack of tension in the running rigging also prevents noise and chafe.These advantages are not obvious to people who have never sailed junk rigged boats, even if they have read a lot about the rig. Anyone interested would pick up some more advantages from the Junk Association Information Pack.

We are now fitting new battens to old rigs and improving their performance, particularly to windward to the point that they are matching similar Bermudan rigged boats to windward.The offshore junks are going for the GRP tube battens that are selected by a computer program, so that they get stiffer as you go up the sail, depending on their length and the area of sail panel above each batten. The specification can also easily be altered for either coastal or ocean cruising.The jointed battens work well when there is little wind to bend the GRP battens.

We have also found it is advantageous to use what we call Keep battens on the opposite side of the sail to the working battens. We use the cheap, lightweight and very flexible plastic 7/8" OD household water pipe by Osmaweld as they can be lengthened from their standard 4m length by glued joints. These are laced through the sail to the working battens as we have done away with batten pockets, so saving 15% off the sails cost.These Keep battens give an efficient airflow and prevent chafe of the sail from the lazy jacks.

I hope you find all the enclosed information useful, as we feel it is essential to share research and development of the junk rig between all interested parties, to improve the efficiency and consequent enjoyment of the junk rig for all and so give the rig the best possible image to other rig users.

The JUNK RIG (and Advanced Cruising Rig) ASSOCIATION

This association was formed in Britain in 1980 with the aim of furthering the development of the rig in its various forms, and of creating an community of people with an interest in the rig to share their experience and ideas for mutual benefit and enjoyment.A BI-annual newsletter. (Potential members might be interested to know that the JRA has been sponsoring research at a local university into the how and why of the junk rig. As they come in, results are posted in the newsletter.)

JUNK RIG ASSOCIATION BR
373 Hunts Pond Road, Titchfield Common, Fareham, Hants, PO14 4PB, England.

Attention: Robin Blain, Hon.Sec.

Tel: 01329 842 613 ( +44 1329 842613 ) Fax 01 1329 315 232 (+44 1329 315 232 )

[Mayfly]

Found the main website of Thomas E Colvin for you'll that is fan of the person.

http://www.thomasecolvin.com/

[Vega]

One more to your collection:
http://www.parker-marine.com/descsh39.html

I like this one, very nice design, in my opinion.;)

[Mayfly]

That is a nice size to try with a sharpie design:).

But have a look at Bruce Robert (Trader 65 ) hull and ask for the lug sail version, foolproof and effortable.....:D see sample picture below.

[Mayfly]

New website for junk rig lover, must see, have info on junk rally this summer...:)

http://www.junkrig.com/

Miss it and live to regret.

[Mayfly]

This series brings together a unique combination of traditional and modern elements and produces a range of boats optimized for offshore safety and comfort, ease of handling, excellent accommodations, and high performance of the type that is valuable to cruising people. Sheathed Strip construction is standard.

The distinguishing characteristics of the series are:

1.) Modern heavy-displacement hull designs of the full-keel type, for best comfort at sea, good steering characteristics under all conditions, and consistently high speed, especially in very light and very heavy air and on long passages.

2.) Chinese lug rig for full sail-handling capability (raising, lowering, reefing, unreefing, and sheet handling) from the helm, without touching the sail, optimum sail area under varying conditions without changing sails, consistently high performance, especially on passage, and low-tech simplicity and reliability.

3.) Flush deck design for maximum interior volume, ease of interior customization, versatile and roomy deck space, strength, and simplicity.

4.) Steering and sail handling from on deck or from the shelter of the enclosed steering station.

The boats are sized according to the number of people they are meant to accommodate. They are meant to treat their people very well indeed. They have enormous deck space for best enjoyment of good weather, generous interior accommodations for the cost of the vessel, and maximum comfort and safety when conditions deteriorate. They are very large for their length due to the flush deck. For instance the 30 foot Sovereign has as much room as a 36 to 40 foot vessel.

The combination of the easily handled rig, the wind vane and the enclosed steering station is virtually unavailable elsewhere. We feel they revolutionize the experience of long-term cruising and voyaging, by eliminating much of the physical discomfort and many of the common dangers.

It is very rare to find a line of live aboard voyaging yachts designed by a designer with as much live aboard experience as we have. Indeed these were designed while living aboard and cruising. Further because of our great affection for this particular series of designs we have gone back year after year adding details to the plans and refining elements as suggested by our own thoughts and experience and that of owners of the vessels. For us they continue to represent our concept of near ultimate voyaging yachts.


http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/farthing.htm

http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/shilling.htm

http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/penny.htm

http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/sovereig.htm

http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/crown.htm

Mayfly

[mariner 40]

What about putting a junk rig on a light weight submarine. Attach the sail to the mast and rotate the mast from inside the boat! The snorkle can be inside the mast! No sunburn!!!

[Mayfly]

Can you post such a scientific design for us to view? You must be a master craft man to design such a brain killer idea. Please do not hesitate to post more of your idea for the sake of enlighten the world on your theory. I will keep in mind your great suggestion for future generation. Thank you, I feel better already:)

[mariner 40]

I have actually been thinking of building a model of the boat. When I get it completed, I will post some pictures.

[gonzo]

A submarine has no initial form stability. What do you propose to keep it from heeling? Ballast is of some use but the rig would be submerged before it gets much power.

[mariner 40]

Here is the model I am starting with.

[Mayfly]

It look like the German suicide submarine to me...... 2 person with a attached tropedo with not enough fuel to get back.............. die anyway.:)

[Wellydeckhand]

Sorry, cant help myself from not posting this picture from Sean Herron on the thread, feel no offend but lighter junk humor.......... good inspiration

[Wellydeckhand]

Ok if this article is true form Nat Geo than junk rig have gone a looooong way, I can find any article saying the map is true or false alarm yet.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0118_060118_chinese_map.html

[Vega]

I have already talked about that voyage and the controversy about it.
See post 5 of this thread;)

[Wellydeckhand]

The modern map from Nat Geo...........

[Wellydeckhand]

Ok VEGA...... so I was late to know these stuff....... was busy in the forest workin for a livin you know.....:)

WDH

[Wellydeckhand]

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=potter0008

This article discribe the Junk Sail Rig and easy use....... Test of Time design

WDH:)

Why did we decide to build a junk-rigged vessel? Aside from the simplicity of sailing, we built this particular boat because we fell in love with her lines. We decided that if we were going to take a few years off to build a boat, it had to be something unique and beautiful. Although we had seen pictures of the Chinese junk-rigs that have sailed around Hong Kong's harbor and many other places in the Orient for hundreds of years, it never occurred to us that we would build a similar boat.

So, how does our boat sail? We absolutely love the way Moondancer sails on a beam reach or deeper. When the wind comes over the stern and we let the sails out on either side, people onshore smile, wave, and take pictures. At times like that, I swell with pride. Surely there is nothing more beautiful than a junk running wing-and-wing.

However, with the good comes the bad. Junk-rigs, as a rule, can't point as high as Bermuda-rigged sloops. Moondancer is no exception. She really doesn't like to sail upwind. As sailors, we discovered a long time ago that we don't like to beat too hard upwind either. Thus, we share a kinship with our boat. Twenty knots of wind at our back is the ideal condition for all of us.

Standing the Test of Time

One of the strongest and most vocal proponents of the junk rig is Robin Blain, the current Secretary of the Junk Rig Association based in the UK. Blain says that this rig configuration was developed 2,000 years ago by Chinese mariners and has only gotten better with time. He refutes the criticism that a junk rig can't sail to windward. The junk's only limitation on windward ability, says Blain, is imposed by the boat's hull shape. He says that junk-rigged racing boats have been proven to sail within 35 degrees of the wind. Another beauty of the junk rig, claims Blain, is that unlike Bermudian rigs, these sails are so efficient that they don't have to be tended as closely.

Blain claims that the efficiency of the junk rig also has other advantages: The sails needn't be made of high-tech materials, and compared to Bermuda rigs, these are the most quiet sails available because they don't slat and snap against the rigging; there isn't any rigging. For additional information on the Junk Rig Association, contact Blain at:

Junk Rig And Advanced Cruising Rig Association
373 Hunts Pond Road
Fareham
Hants PO14 4PB
phone 44 01329 842613.

[Wellydeckhand]

http://winterthun.net/victor/conversion.php

[Ari]

Beautiful rig..so easy to make..so cheap to maintain..I love it too.

[bartbunbury]

I cannot understand why you guys want to stick a junk rig on a modern hull??why dont you stick to a chinese junk as a whole ??, it is a great consept and I believe it will only work if you keep the two together
I am building a 2.5 mtr model at the moment and if it all works out I will build a full size one, which will be 17 mtr in length. if any one is interested in the plans , let me know.

Bartbunbury

[westlawn5554X]

I also got interest in junk builting notion. I am almost finish my hybride version but the junk can be view at my gallery:

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=3116

LOA 22m Junk but my next junk rendering have not been complete.

The thing with junk is that marine advancement for old China had somewhat disturbed by the Emperor decision not to communicate further out after ChengHo. So boat and Ship are built for for trade and short passage hence the bulky hull.

Even the durable junk rig sail was never improved by the Chinese... Dont know why. Maybe they 're too concerntrated in fuedal war among themselve. China is call mainland and they see the Silk Road as the only vital Trade Route to the West.

I know thos sound crazy but I have a few new junk rig design I have been keeping to myself. Dont know where to patent it yet.

Student (very ameture)

[gggGuest]

[url]One of the strongest and most vocal proponents of the junk rig is Robin Blain, the current Secretary of the Junk Rig [follows two paras of desperately overegged spin]

Its funny isn't it, how people can takea perfectly reasonable concept, for which there is a definite place, and then hype it beyond belief so that the disinterested bystander just ignores the concept. Kind of a DL moment:-)

[sharpii2]

I cannot understand why you guys want to stick a junk rig on a modern hull??why dont you stick to a chinese junk as a whole ??, it is a great consept and I believe it will only work if you keep the two together
I am building a 2.5 mtr model at the moment and if it all works out I will build a full size one, which will be 17 mtr in length. if any one is interested in the plans , let me know.

Bartbunbury

Probably because more modern hulls have greater capability. The big weaknes of a junk is its huge ballanced rudder. It is not only needed to steer the vessel but to provide latteral ressistence as well. It projects well below the vessel's bottom and only retracts virtically. If it should strike ground, the vessel could lose not only its steering, but its latteral resistance as well.

A big part of traditional Western keel design has been sturdiness and rudder protection. Maybe that comes from Greek galleys that had to be beached every night and Viking ships that also served as landing craft. Even modern high performance sailboats usually have the keel considerably deeper than the rudder.

I believe it was the Portuguese who first started putting junk rigs on Western hulls. Apparently, that was a big improvement on 16th and 17th century ship design. The hybrid vessel was faster than the Chinese boat and much more weatherly than than European boat.

But. As I have said before, I see no reason not to put a full keel on a junk, especially one that's expected to do blue water work and sail in poorly charted areas, and take advantage of the West's greatest contribution to sailing vessel design. And yet have a boat that looks like a junk.

Bob

[Ari]

I believe it was the Portuguese who first started putting junk rigs on Western hulls. Apparently, that was a big improvement on 16th and 17th century ship design. The hybrid vessel was faster than the Chinese boat and much more weatherly than than European boat.

Bob
This type of boat is still being built in Malaysia they are called Pinis in Malaysia or Phinisi in Indonesia. The Phinisi utilised seven sail like a schooner or Ketch.Pinis normally utilised Junk sail and Jib.
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5200/cat/500/ppuser/12573

[bartbunbury]

Sharpii2

You are spot on, the only alterations that I have made so far are the rudder and the keel , I might make some more as a go along. I have included some drawings and some photo's of the model that I am building.

Cheers , Bart

[coops.gb]

Hi everyone,
Great model Bart any updates??

I am glad to find this post I am also wanting to build a junk design motorsailer.
Searching for just the right plans has left me reaching for my pencil.

I am half way through my concept sketches and will put them up in the short future for comment.

Anyone think the san francisco pelican has potential to blow out to 40 ft??
With a few slight line changes of course.

There is a 24 ft stretched dowser Pelican that would be awsome enlarged.
http://community-2.webtv.net/PelicanSailboat/SFPELICANSAILBOATS/

So a 40 ft, stitch and glue, ply, v hull with a full keel and a sampan bow
and a junk rig. This is what Im starting with....oh and a pilot house on the aft 3rd.

Anyhow Im excited about it and will try to get some drawings up soonest.
I would love some group comment
Cheers everyone Glenn

[coops.gb]

Is this thread still active for anyone?

[TerryKing]

Those of us who don't know much but are interested are still subscribed...

[DanishBagger]

Yup - same as Terry :-)

[yipster]

after some reading i found the perforated or open rudders interesting
often in a bun that in a following sea fills and compensates pitching
was thinking tho the junk sail behaves as latin sail touching the mast
also the hull planking going the other way up is different
interesting boats and the first with watertight compartments
but more southerly cats were stealing the show in those days

[Landlubber]

I met a fella sailing a folkboat in Yamba (East Coast Aussieland) in about 1990. It was dead calm in the little cove there, we were on the beach and he sailed around for a while till we invited him into the beach for a yap. It was very good, he was alone.

[Schoonerman]

We constructed one and it is presently on her way accross the Atlantic after departing Indonesia view her voyage at http://www.weltsichten.de

[Pericles]

Did anyone post this link?

http://www.1421.tv/maps.asp

Pericles

[yipster]

no kiddin, no havent seen or read about that chinese 1421 circumnavigation before
i was reading today about da gamma and the first euro cats in 1684

[bartbunbury]

Hi guys , sorry for the long wait Coops.gb. here are some photo's of the 2.5 meter junk, I took it out on the water and she sails well . I put some radio control stuff in it . Its a ripper
Cheers , Bartbunbury western Australia

[Pericles]

A very nice craft you have there. A credit to your talents. How about either a 9 mast treasure ship,

http://www.1421.tv/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=99

or the Song dynasty Nanhai 1 as your next model. :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7156581.stm

Best wishes,

Pericles

[bartbunbury]

he he he .... no problems , you want to order one ????

[bartbunbury]

Like this one Pericles ?????

[Pericles]

The scale may surprise you. The treasure ships are thought to have been 460 feet long and 168 feet maximum beam. Even at 1" per foot, that's 38 feet long and 14 feet beam and with up to 9 masts, somewhat difficult for the crew. In the full size ships, it is thought the sails were controlled with huge stone weights that slid up and down inclined planes in the depths of the hulls.

http://www.1421.tv/pages/content/index.asp?PageID=97

The book is a good read.

http://www.1421.tv/

Here is an extract.

".. And last of all comes the biggest controversy. New Zealand historians have been the most apoplectic of all about my book. Anything that challenges Maori legend is to be resisted at all costs! Accepted New Zealand history has it that the foreign animals and plants found by the first Europeans were brought by the Maoris in their open canoes - that is, horses, pigs, dogs, rats and an array of plants from South America, North America, Asia and the Pacific. According to New Zealand historians, the Maoris traded all over the world.

A number of critics have emailed me about the size of the tankers required by Zheng He`s fleets to provide water for horses, arguing that the limiting factor on the number of horses was the number of water tankers; it would have been impossible to desalinate anywhere near enough water to satisfy more than a handful of horses as each needs about three gallons a day. Now, apply this to the Maori scenario, travelling from Tahiti to New Zealand in open canoes. They must have brought at least two horses to breed as one pregnant mare would not produce a line. I have taken my submarine from New Zealand to Tahiti; the seas are short and choppy most of the year which makes for a difficult journey which would probably have taken at least six weeks. Horses drink more in exposed conditions of high humidity such as spray in an open boat, so the consumption is likely to have been at least five gallons a day per horse, which for a six-week journey amounts to 420 gallons or around a ton of water per animal. Then, of course, the animals would have needed hay, and that`s not to mention food and water for the boats` crews. I submit that it would have been impossible for Maoris to bring horses to New Zealand. The wild Kaimanawa ponies of North Island must therefore have been brought by others, either Europeans or Chinese. DNA tests are in hand for the Kaimanawa, the Pasos of Peru, the Assateagues of the islands off Virginia and the Kiger Mustangs of North America. I believe their common ancestor will turn out to be the blood horses of Tajikistan which were the mounts of the Chinese cavalry. Emperor Zhu Di imported millions to China during his reign.

When the first Europeans arrived in New Zealand they came across an array of plants foreign to the island. The most common was Chenopodium album, introduced from North America, where it has been used by native peoples to make cakes since time immemorial. Captain Cook discovered it in 1769. The second is marsh cress, Rorippa palustris, identified by the French expedition of 1826-9 aboard L`Astrobole. Again, this was used by the Navajo - who have Chinese DNA, and whose elders to this day understand Chinese - as a ritual eyewash. Others include maize, which originated in Peru; scented grass from Colombia; taro from China (Captain Cook); yams from the Pacific (Captain Cook); and most celebrated of all, the kumara, the sweet potato, from South America (where it is called kumar), which, as Captain Cook rightly said, was a vitally important food for Maori people.

Someone, either Maoris, Polynesians, South American Indians or Chinese, must have brought these plants to New Zealand. The carriers were clearly not Europeans for they found the plants there. Thor Heyerdahl, to my mind one of the greatest explorers of all time, argued that it was Incas who had sailed from Peru to Tahiti then onwards. Regrettably, DNA has shown that his hypothesis is incorrect; if it were true, Inca DNA should be found on the Pacific islands. An investigative team of Cambridge archaeologists led by Matt Hurles published their findings in the American Journal of Human Genetics: only on one island around Tahiti, Rapa, did they find the distinctive DNA of native South Americans, and these Rapa genes had come from the crew of a Peruvian ship that stopped off at the island in 1862 to kidnap slaves.

Could it have been Maoris or Polynesians who travelled to South America and returned with the plants? This possibility has been examined by Professor Bryan Sykes and his team at Oxford University and written up in Bryan`s wonderful book The Seven Daughters of Eve. `If we found DNA matches [of Polynesians] in Chile or Peru, or even in coastal North America,` he wrote, ` then Heyerdahl was right. If we found them in south-east Asia, he was wrong.` Later, he concluded: `I had to be sure that 247, the defining variant of Polynesian mitochondrial DNA, was not abundant in the Americas. No-one had ever seen it. Not even once. Heyerdahl was wrong.`

So that, in my view, leaves only the Chinese as the possible carriers to Australia (seventy-four species) and New Zealand (eight species) of those South American plants found by the first Europeans. If it was the Chinese, their DNA should be found on both sides of the Pacific, in the Incas and the Maoris. We know that`s true for the Incas, but does Chinese DNA turn up in the Maoris?

First, a short digression. The Maoris were not the first to settle in New Zealand. Carbon dating of rat bones found in Hawkes Bay on the east coast of North Island shows them to be at least two thousand years old. The oldest Maori settlement dates back to AD 800. Dr. Richard Holdaway, a Christchurch palaeontologist, says the rats must have arrived by human voyagers - in short, humans must have arrived 800 years before the Maoris. As Dr. Rau Kirikiri, a leading Maori academic, reflected, `this could lead Maoris to question their own history.`

Back to Maori DNA. For the past fifty years debate has raged over where the Maori came from. Some say China (Taiwan), others Indonesia. Events have recently taken a startling turn. Adele White, for the ABC television programme Catalyst (broadcast on 27 March 2003), used mitochondrial (female line) DNA to trace Maori origins back as far as mainland Asia. But where in mainland Asia? The answer came from a surprising quarter - by looking at the gene for alcohol. Adele`s supervisor, Dr. Geoff Chambers, found a match between one of the variant genes for alcohol with people from Taiwan, so it seemed the original homeland of the Maori people was Taiwan. Or was it? When Dr. Chambers` team studied the Y (male) chromosome, they found a different story. While the females came from China, most of the men came from Melanesia.

What might have happened is that a small number of Melanesians settled in New Zealand about two thousand years ago; it was they who brought the rats whose bones have been carbon dated. Zhou Man`s fleet arrived from the Antarctic (Campbell Island) in 1422/23. They landed in substantial numbers in South Island and some ships were wrecked on North Island (Ruapuke Beach). The fleets carried Chinese Tanka concubines. The Melanesians murdered the Chinese men and took the concubines as their wives. If this was the case, evidence of the Chinese visit to South Island should be there. Thanks to Cedric Bell, to whom I am indebted, that evidence has been found. We have carbon dating of wood, mortar, stone and slag as evidence that the Chinese lived on South Island and mined her minerals for five centuries before Captain Cook `discovered` New Zealand.

I am, now more than ever, convinced that accepted history has been turned upside down, not only in New Zealand and Australia but in North and South America, across the Pacific and in the Arctic and Antarctic. The great bulk of the new evidence that has enabled me to make such startling claims has come from readers of my book. It is you, not historians or academics, who have rewritten history..."

Pericles

[westlawn5554X]

You maybe surprise if I told you the present aircraft carrier is model after the junk with the distinct flat platform in the front... and it is big guys...:) Thomas Colvin help design the carrier and he love junk boat...

[BigCat]

http://bigcatcatamarans.com/junk_rig.jpg

Blondie Hasler designed the rig of the boat linked to above, Batwing, which I sailed across the Pacific. There have been numerous ocean crossings and circumnavigatons by junk rigged yachts, and various Pacific crossings by traditional junks. My updated take on the junk rig can be seen at http://bigcatcatamarans.com .

[Schoonerman]

I see no reason why not, but needless to day any circumnavigation should be seen as an adventure !

Robin

[artistglyn]

I think it's an excellent rig for long distance cruising. I had a very good book by an english coupe who built a junk rigged schooner and sailed it around the world. It was a mine of information but I no longer have it and can't remember who they were. I think he may have been John somebody. I spent some time designing a junk rig for a 'waterwhich' design but never completed it. It's a great short handed option and I think it's very under rated. But then, I owned a ferro cement boat for years and think they are also great so what do I know ! Whatever you have there will always be detractors and supporters. Only you can make the decision, but I for one would not hesitate to sail on a well found junk rigged boat.

[M-Sasha]

It's a great short handed option and I think it's very under rated.

That is for sure!

Sasha

[Fernao]

Actually Chinese hull consist of two type of hull.1.The round bottom with keel 2. the flat bottom without keel. Both type had been develop all over the world to so advance a level..A flat bottom barge..round bottom, both end sharp Phinisi..add in cutter and tea clipper bow..overhang stern..Asia..the melting pot of all culture..The sail is different story..only the material had change..the principal is still the same.Previously in Malaysia the sail are made from woven Pandanus leave - Tikar in Malay.

Builders in Malaysia did not built original Chinese hull..They built the more advance level..the result of the melting pot..Thats the type I'am building. The sail will be different. It will be unstayed mast like the type design by Eric Sponberg couple with Chinese soft skin wingsail. Anyway my motor sailor( KLM) will be equip with Yanmar or Mitsubishi engine with 10-15 metric ton fuel capacity. Hopefully should be able to circumnavigate with no refuelling. The bulk of the fuel is for the generators. Madam's want all the comfort on boards..

Ari:

I am new to the forum and I was curious. I am wanting to build a junk for my retirement home. I found this forum, I was curious where I can find a site with some good plans. I have already looked at jonquedeplaisance.net and I like the design but I was looking for something more authentic as well. Can you or anyone on the forum direct me to some websites? I am pretty good with my hand and working with wood.

Thanks,

Fernao

[Fernao]

This type of boat is still being built in Malaysia they are called Pinis in Malaysia or Phinisi in Indonesia. The Phinisi utilised seven sail like a schooner or Ketch.Pinis normally utilised Junk sail and Jib.
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5200/cat/500/ppuser/12573

Ari:

Many thanks for the links. i was curious if you knew of any designers so I could get some plans to build one of these myself.

Thanks,

Fernao

[MastMonkey]

Fernao,

Michael Kasten has designed a couple Phinisi, even working with the Bugis people to build one of them.

http://www.kastenmarine.com/phinisi_homecoming.htm

Also, if you are interested in the design and construction of traditional Junks, there is a book called "Sail and Sweep: The history and Development of the Chines Junk," written by GRG Worcester.

http://www.amazon.com/Sail-sweep-China-development-illustrated/dp/B0006D8HYM

It is out of print but can be found used. He documents the design and construction of several different junk types from river craft to coastal traders and also I believe a ship of war. He has detailed drawings of the design and descriptions and drawings of the construction.

[Pericles]

Perhaps these pages can help. Scroll down a little to view Brian Platt's article about the Chinese Sail. There is also good information about Junks.

http://www.thecheappages.com/

Regards,

P.

[Fernao]

Fernao,

Michael Kasten has designed a couple Phinisi, even working with the Bugis people to build one of them.

http://www.kastenmarine.com/phinisi_homecoming.htm

Also, if you are interested in the design and construction of traditional Junks, there is a book called "Sail and Sweep: The history and Development of the Chines Junk," written by GRG Worcester.

http://www.amazon.com/Sail-sweep-China-development-illustrated/dp/B0006D8HYM

It is out of print but can be found used. He documents the design and construction of several different junk types from river craft to coastal traders and also I believe a ship of war. He has detailed drawings of the design and descriptions and drawings of the construction.

MastMonkey:

I noticed that there was a lot of standing rigging on the phinisi.... I think that I will look in to Kasten's site to see if the junk boats have junk rigs as well.

The reason that I say this is that Junk rigs can be set up with unstayed masts and solo sailed. :)

Thanks,

Fernao

[MastMonkey]

Fernao,

Michael Kasten has developed several plans using the junk rig and is an advocate of it:

http://www.kastenmarine.com/junk_rig.htm

The phinisi in the photos is gaff rigged and so yes, it has quite a bit of rigging, standing and running. Junk rigs are almost always designed to use a freestanding mast, though occasionally you will see some designed with a fore stay. After encountering European sailing craft some boat builder in Asia began to experiment with additional stays and shrouds, but the traditional way has been a free standing mast.

Another boat design you may want to research is the Lorcha. This was a European style hull fitted with junk rig sails. The served as anti-pirate ships and were very effective.

[Pericles]

'Can Chinese Junk actually circumnavigate?'‏

If you want it to!

http://www.gavinmenzies.net/

[BATAAN]

Here's a Chinese lug main on a modified SPRAY that works very well. Hasn't circumnavigated but has many hard ocean miles.

[Lister]

Who knows what the Chinese did centuries ago.
They are an amazing culture with one of the most ancient history.
I will be not surprise if they circumnavigated and find all the land we "discovered" and "conquered" many century after.
As for the rigging, it is very efficient, ans easy to repair. The secret is to rely on a net between the batten, then the canvas panel or leaves panel on top. That way a sail panel can be torn by the wind, salt and sun, the whole sail still effective.
Lister

[Pericles]

From Lister.

"Who knows what the Chinese did centuries ago?"

Is this a rhetorical question?

The Chinese know what the Chinese did centuries ago and you can too, if you read the data.

[Lister]

From Lister.

"Who knows what the Chinese did centuries ago?"

Is this a rhetorical question?

The Chinese know what the Chinese did centuries ago and you can too, if you read the data.

You tell me: read the data's, that it's ? You sure?
The data's are just that: data's from human. And the data's are not all here.
So I repeat: Who knows what the Chinese did centuries ago?"
But it can be also a rhetorical question taken as a challenge.
The challenge will be to prove that the chain of data's was never broken.
Can you?
Lister

[Pericles]

The answer still is, the Chinese know what the Chinese did. ;) Do you question American history in the same manner? Should I ask if you doubt the history of Lubec Maine? I had a brief glance at the history of the place and it seems a nice place. I would guess the townsfolk have recorded the significant events accurately for the public record, but based upon your last response, is there something more esoteric to know:?: Apart from the gold from seawater scam that is. :)

In 1886, there were two shipyards, three boatbuilders and three sailmakers. What can you tell us about them please? Are any still operating and what types of boats were built in Lubec. Boats in all their glory are the subjects that interest us at this forum.

[Lister]

The answer still is, the Chinese know what the Chinese did. ;) Do you question American history in the same manner? Should I ask if you doubt the history of Lubec Maine? I had a brief glance at the history of the place and it seems a nice place. I would guess the townsfolk have recorded the significant events accurately for the public record, but based upon your last response, is there something more esoteric to know:?: Apart from the gold from seawater scam that is. :)

In 1886, there were two shipyards, three boatbuilders and three sailmakers. What can you tell us about them please? Are any still operating and what types of boats were built in Lubec. Boats in all their glory are the subjects that interest us at this forum.

You are quite an aggressive chap.
No need to lecture me. Its counterproductive to jump on your soap box and jump at my throat.
But you signature should have warned me :p
Lubec, which you know zip about but through Goggle, is not in China.
So back to the topic:
Did you had sailed on a Chinese Junk with sails made of leaves?
Good night
Lister

[Pericles]

Not aggressive, assertive. That chip on your shoulder does you no favours. It screws your language skills. Please decipher "Did you had sailed on a Chinese Junk with sails made of leaves?" :D

Take a deep breath and type carefully, "I must try harder to be nicer, otherwise I going to be a very lonely Lister." :eek:

We find a sense of humour helps.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/boat-jokes-we-need-few-laughs-14472-335.html

[MastMonkey]

One other thing you may be interested in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Taiping_(sailing_vessel)

The Princess Taiping was a replica of Zhe Heng's ships, supposedly the admiral that commanded the Chinese circumnavigation fleet. Though I do not believe Gavin Menzies' assertion that they circumnavigated and find his "research" dubious, it is quite possible that ventured further than currently acknowledged. The Princess Taiping was built to cross the Pacific and make the return journey, testing the theory that ships made it to the west coast of the Americas. They more or less accomplished this, prior to being sunk off the coast of Taiwan while returning home.

By the way, does anyone know why the rudder is off center. I have never noticed this before in other Junk models or replicas I have seen. How would it affect the boats handling?

[Lister]

Pericles, I don't feel your attitude is interesting for me.
I will keep my posts for people who are willing to share, not to play clever.
Lister

[Kanfish]

Following on from the ' 1421 ' excerpt above and Chinese Junks being in New Zealand as proof of their capabilities for Ocean passages in this period. Much factual evidence is here and been found already but being hushed up by Maori and Government as they push for the BS they would like us to believe to the fore.
There is one really good web site to read up on if you google ' Waipoua Forest Stone Village ' This has excellent photos that totally blows away the Maori BS of their history in New Zealand. This web site will also take you onto another site too ' Maunganui Bluff with astrological stone cairns and diagrams explanation of a people with much great intelligence than Maori have ever been credited with. ( I think my spelling of the bluff is not quiet right perhaps but you should be able to find it within the site ) West coast, upper North Island location.

[Pericles]

Mastmonkey,

Perhaps the rudder would foul the propeller if it were located on the centre line? See illustrations below.

http://www.thecheappages.com/junks.html

http://www.thecheappages.com/junk/sampan.html

Kanfish,

Gavin M. suggested that the water garden in the Botanical Gardens, Christchurch was laid out in the remains of the harbour on the River Avon, excavated by the Chinese. It's a intriguing idea, but I would want evidence that the water gardens were NOT excavated when the gardens were founded in 1863. You are right though, that the NZ government is too politically correct to consider that the Maori were not the first settlers in NZ.

I also was a settler there from 1949 to 1953. My father was sent out there in 1948 by Glaxo Laboratories (as was) to construct a factory in Island Bay for extracting Vitamin A from shark livers, but that's another story, from a long time ago. :o We returned home on the SS Strathaird. Great memories.

Regards,

P

[Pericles]

Kanfish,

Are these the links to which you referred?

http://www.everythingselectric.com/forum/index.php?topic=310.0

http://www.everythingiselectric.com/new-zealand/waitapu-valley-solar-observatory.html

http://www.everythingiselectric.com/new-zealand/waipoua-forest-stone-city.html

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/NZ_connect.html

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/waipoua_fs.html

Martin Doutré has certainly been industrious in his research.

P.

[FAST FRED]

"A motor sailor can be 100% sailing vessel, as well as being 100% capable under power."

A boat built like this would be called a 90/90.

The loss of 10% as a motorboat is due to the weight of ballast , the rig and sails.

The loss of 10% as a sailboat is due to the huge over sized engine and large heavy fuel carried as well as the drag of a large, slow, efficient prop.

But the concept , a sailboat hull, large enough to hold 2500 miles worth of fuel , and a modern fully battened mainsail could be a cruisers joy.

I would build in mounts for Flopper Stoppers , as probably 75% of cruising will be under power.

FF

[Steve W]

I seem to remember that the Princess Taiping had almost completed a circumnavigation when she was run down by a ship i think, i could be wrong though.
Steve.

[BATAAN]

One other thing you may be interested in:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Taiping_(sailing_vessel)

The Princess Taiping was a replica of Zhe Heng's ships, supposedly the admiral that commanded the Chinese circumnavigation fleet. Though I do not believe Gavin Menzies' assertion that they circumnavigated and find his "research" dubious, it is quite possible that ventured further than currently acknowledged. The Princess Taiping was built to cross the Pacific and make the return journey, testing the theory that ships made it to the west coast of the Americas. They more or less accomplished this, prior to being sunk off the coast of Taiwan while returning home.

By the way, does anyone know why the rudder is off center. I have never noticed this before in other Junk models or replicas I have seen. How would it affect the boats handling?
The rudder is not off center. It is an optical illusion in the photo due to the fact that the upper beam is straight and the lower is not, but in two pieces angling in. The one closer to camera of the two, seems shorter as a result, giving the illusion of an off center rudder.
I am a film visual effects professional and deal with camera illusions as a business.

[BATAAN]

"A motor sailor can be 100% sailing vessel, as well as being 100% capable under power."

A boat built like this would be called a 90/90.

The loss of 10% as a motorboat is due to the weight of ballast , the rig and sails.

The loss of 10% as a sailboat is due to the huge over sized engine and large heavy fuel carried as well as the drag of a large, slow, efficient prop.

But the concept , a sailboat hull, large enough to hold 2500 miles worth of fuel , and a modern fully battened mainsail could be a cruisers joy.

I would build in mounts for Flopper Stoppers , as probably 75% of cruising will be under power.

FF
I'd have to argue that the losses due to large propellor, turbulent aperture, weight of fuel and machinery, add up to a lot more than 10% less than pure sailing performance.
I've sailed many thousands of miles with a 1000 sq ft Chinese mainsail and have observed that, like any sail, bigger is better. So if a motor sailor is planned and it's not all motor, then low freeboard, lots of stability and a large rig are needed. The Chinese lug works well if large enough and is easier to handle than most other big sails.
The rig brings greatly increased windage into the motor boat half of the equation, degrading performance when bucking into weather. Unless the boat has a lot of power and a big propellor, this factor quickly adds up.
Any motor sailor is a compromise, neither a perfect powerboat or sailboat.
Another factor that seems to be ignored here is someone has to pay for, and maintain, both a full power installation and a complete sailing rig, so the boat is very expensive compared to a pure power or pure sail vessel.
And if 75% of cruising is under power, the rest of the time the sailing rig is nothing but drag (windage) and still needs to be maintained, covered etc. so is wasted investment.

[MastMonkey]

I seem to remember that the Princess Taiping had almost completed a circumnavigation when she was run down by a ship i think, i could be wrong though.
Steve.

The Princess Taiping did not circumnavigate, but did cross the Pacific twice, coming to California from Taiwan, stopping in several ports in California, prior to returning to Taiwan. She was sank by a freighter off the coast of Taiwan during her homecoming.


The rudder is not off center. It is an optical illusion in the photo due to the fact that the upper beam is straight and the lower is not, but in two pieces angling in. The one closer to camera of the two, seems shorter as a result, giving the illusion of an off center rudder.
I am a film visual effects professional and deal with camera illusions as a business.


You are completely right. I found a few other pictures showing the stern more directly and it is centered. I think that conical covering placed next to it really adds to the effect. Thanks!

[MastMonkey]

Mastmonkey,

Perhaps the rudder would foul the propeller if it were located on the centre line? See illustrations below.

http://www.thecheappages.com/junks.html

http://www.thecheappages.com/junk/sampan.html

P

Thanks for these two links. Very informative. The bibliography given on the first gives me many new books to track down. I had luckily came across Worcester's "Sail and Sweep" while searching California's library system database. I did not realize he wrote many more, including one that is apparently larger and more detailed. The sampan link is also great. I have always wanted to build a small sampan, historically accurate, to use as a day sailor. This is the first time I have seen a sampan design given with a centerboard. This is also very interesting:

"It is at this point that the reason for the peculiar stern construction becomes apparent, for it is obvious that if this boat is running off with a heavy following sea, the instant that a wave strikes her stern, a very large volume of water will be momentarily held in the space between the stern proper and the after bulkhead. In a large boat, this weight of water would probably amount to a ton or more, and the weight of this water momentarily holds down the stern and prevents it from lifting unduly on a following sea."

[Fernao]

The Princess Taiping did not circumnavigate, but did cross the Pacific twice, coming to California from Taiwan, stopping in several ports in California, prior to returning to Taiwan. She was sank by a freighter off the coast of Taiwan during her homecoming.





You are completely right. I found a few other pictures showing the stern more directly and it is centered. I think that conical covering placed next to it really adds to the effect. Thanks!

Mast Monkey:
I read about the Princess Taiping. She was completely traditionally built. It was sad to hear about her demise.

[MastMonkey]

Really breaks the heart:

http://gcaptain.com/incident-photo-week-chinese?8102

[Kanfish]

Kanfish,

Are these the links to which you referred?

http://www.everythingselectric.com/forum/index.php?topic=310.0

http://www.everythingiselectric.com/new-zealand/waitapu-valley-solar-observatory.html

http://www.everythingiselectric.com/new-zealand/waipoua-forest-stone-city.html

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/NZ_connect.html

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/waipoua_fs.html



Martin Doutré has certainly been industrious in his research.

P.

Yes, these are the web sites plus one other that is of great interest with much more reference to Maori canabalism in our New Zealand history.
www.an unpalatable truth.co.nz

[Fernao]

Really breaks the heart:

http://gcaptain.com/incident-photo-week-chinese?8102

Mast Monkey:

That is that story that I read.

Fernao

[Guillermo]

.... otherwise I going to be a very lonely Lister."
Which Lister? This Lister.....?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_L%C3%ADster

:P

[Pericles]

Kanfish.

That last link exposes all that is false about Political Correctness. As a family, we would spend the summer holidays (1950 -1953) on a sheep ranch in Ranana, up the Whanganui. The homestead was on the south side of the river opposite the village and can be recognised by a line of tall poplar trees in what was known as the lower paddock. Google Earth. The family who owned the place were the Monks, Pop Monk, whose mother was the first Pakeha up the Whanganui, his wife, their son Sos (he adored sausages) and their daughter Dawn. My father liked to hunt Captain Cookers. He wanted 4 full grown lower jaws, so as to have the tusks mounted in silver as a toast rack:!: He only bagged three, but I remember the jaws hung on a tree in the sun for the flies to deflesh them. The tusks would eventually loosen and his were brought them back to England I still have one pair of them and they are as sharp as ever.

http://wanderlustandlipstick.com/2010/papua-new-guinea-people-gor-tribal-man-photo-of-the-day/

On one occasion, we were all invited to a Maori wedding at the Marae and I remember meeting a very old Maori woman who was reputed to have eaten human flesh. The answer to my mother's question was translated as "Long pig tastes like Captain Cookers, but sweeter". Which means that the NZ government claim that the Maori were not cannibals is false, just like the denial that the Chinese did not mine minerals in NZ before the Waka Houreas arrived. However all governments are liars, so it's only to be expected.

Regards,

Perry

[Pericles]

Hello Guillermo,

Perhaps this Lister below, who shares my birthday. He is the "last human" ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Lister

Good to have you in this thread.

Best wishes,

Perry

[Pericles]

Kanfish,

Here is an article that has not been mutilated to remove references to Maori eating Maori.

http://www.zealand.org.nz/whakapapa2.htm

"Taoho, one of the Ngati Whatua chiefs, had drawn a line on the beach beyond which the fleeing Ngapuhi were not to be followed. Two of Hongi Hika's brothers were slain in the battle, but Hongi Hika had survived by hiding till nightfall in a swamp.

In 1824 he exacted his revenge. Thanks to the muskets he now owned he overwhelmed the Ngati Whatua in a battle by the Kaiwaka River, which has it's name from kai and waka ( food and canoe ) because the slaughtered Ngati Whatua were piled into canoes, roasted and eaten.

The Ngati Whatua survivors fled to Waitakere, and then on to the Waikato, and to Whangarei. The Auckland isthmus was abandoned."


The Iwi (tribe) NOT to belong to is Kai Iwi.

Regards,

Perry

[Lister]

Pericles, I owe you an apology
Lister

[CutOnce]

Hello Guillermo,

Perhaps this Lister below, who shares my birthday. He is the "last human" ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Lister

Good to have you in this thread.

Best wishes,

Perry

The picture of the aged Lister (Lister as Lister's father) surprisingly looks like .... you! Maybe this whole thing is self promotion!

Actually, the only Dave Lister I know is a very fast Moth sailor in Sydney. Famed for his iconoclastic homebuilt Moth design which rivals the best production boats on the water.

--
CutOnce

[Kanfish]

Kanfish,

Here is an article that has not been mutilated to remove references to Maori eating Maori.

http://www.zealand.org.nz/whakapapa2.htm

"Taoho, one of the Ngati Whatua chiefs, had drawn a line on the beach beyond which the fleeing Ngapuhi were not to be followed. Two of Hongi Hika's brothers were slain in the battle, but Hongi Hika had survived by hiding till nightfall in a swamp.

In 1824 he exacted his revenge. Thanks to the muskets he now owned he overwhelmed the Ngati Whatua in a battle by the Kaiwaka River, which has it's name from kai and waka ( food and canoe ) because the slaughtered Ngati Whatua were piled into canoes, roasted and eaten.

The Ngati Whatua survivors fled to Waitakere, and then on to the Waikato, and to Whangarei. The Auckland isthmus was abandoned."


The Iwi (tribe) NOT to belong to is Kai Iwi.

Regards,

Perry

Hello Perry,
many thanks for this site. This is the type of story that Maori would like us to believe of course.
I like the 1421 book version much better with the much stronger and greater ' Ring of Truth ' to it than this, as recently quoted in Parliament last week here, the Alice in Wonderland ' Maori ' version of their history in NZ.
That in fact the Chinese bought the menfolk as slaves to work their Junk ship from Melinesia in this period who in turn, once ashore here, killed their ' Masters ' and over time bred up from the Chinese Concubine women that where also on board the big Junk ships to become what they are today now.
Apparently all Maori woman have an Asian gene that the men do not still to this day which tells this story irifrutably as I understand it.

The 1421 book is a great read and there is no doubt that these vessels did and have sailed where ever they wanted over the Worlds Oceans.

[BATAAN]

Don't forget all the Chinese motifs and jade parallels in the art of the societies of western central America.

[COOL]

The 1421 book is a great read and there is no doubt that these vessels did and have sailed where ever they wanted over the Worlds Oceans....

.... and beyond.
When the Apollo 11 astronauts landed on the Moon,
they were astonished to find Chinese artifacts from
a previous expedition by Zhe Heng's great fleet circa
the 1420s.
NASA has managed to keep this fact a secret for decades,
but Menzies has compelling evidence that that Chinese had an
advanced space program in the 15th century.

[Kanfish]

Don't forget all the Chinese motifs and jade parallels in the art of the societies of western central America.

Indeed!
I think the Gavin Menzies research group working with individual information coming in constantly from all over the world has it pretty much right and in print in 1421 and 1434.
That World History as we have been taught is not as it once was now. That down here in NZ that Captain Cook and all other early visitors used Chinese charts to find their way here I think is a real Hoot.

Kanfish

[BATAAN]

.... and beyond.
When the Apollo 11 astronauts landed on the Moon,
they were astonished to find Chinese artifacts from
a previous expedition by Zhe Heng's great fleet circa
the 1420s.
NASA has managed to keep this fact a secret for decades,
but Menzies has compelling evidence that that Chinese had an
advanced space program in the 15th century.

The Chinese lug space sail and lacquered vacuum armor were two of the great discoveries of early Chinese space research.

[Pericles]

Kanfish,

Sailing charts were once considered as state secrets, owing to their strategic and commercial value. Cook may have had access to Abel Tasman's charts because Britain had a Dutch king in 1688 AD. William of Orange was married to Mary, the Protestant daughter of Catholic convert James II who ruled only for 4 years. William and Mary heralded the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorious_Revolution

On such small points do fortunes change. NZ became a British colony rather than Dutch.

"The Decline of the Dutch Republic

Having England as an ally meant that the military situation of the Republic was strongly improved, but this very fact induced William to be uncompromising in his position towards France. This policy led to a large number of very expensive campaigns which were largely paid for with Dutch funds. In 1712 the Republic was financially exhausted; it withdrew from international politics and was forced to let its fleet deteriorate, making England the dominant maritime power of the world. The Dutch economy, already burdened by the high national debt and concomitant high taxation, suffered from the other European states' protectionist policies, which its weakened fleet was no longer able to resist. To make matters worse, the main Dutch trading and banking houses moved much of their activity from Amsterdam to London after 1688. Between 1688 and 1720, world trade dominance shifted from the Republic to England."

A recent example of strategic charts were those allegedly used by Soviet subs to navigate undetected, the underwater peaks of the Arctic Ocean.

[hoytedow]

Fortunes certainly changed for the Dutch turning on the seemingly small point of tulip bulbs of all things!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds

[Pericles]

H,

Indeedy! The CO2 is a pollutant mania is the latest that springs to mind.

"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."

I guess you will know Tim Flannery crashed and burned on Melbourne radio, at the hands of an erstwhile Dutchman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Bolt

A partial transcript of my interview today with Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery:

Bolt: How much will it cost to cut our emissions by the Government’s target of 5 per cent by 2020 and how much will world temperatures fall by as a consequence?

Flannery: Sure. We do have economists on the commission who will be giving a very in depth look at that this evening and I don’t want to pre-empt their assessment of the various cost options, but in terms of how much it will cut temperatures that really very much depends upon how Australia’s position is seen overseas …

Bolt: No, no, we’ll get onto that, Tim. I’m not going to dodge that. The argument is indeed that we have to set a lead and the world has to follow and on our own we can’t do blah blah, but just looking at the basic facts so people can figure it out for themselves (that) the world needs to come on board. On our own, cutting our emissions by 5 per cent by 2020, what will that lower the world’s temperatures by?

Flannery: See, that’s a bogus question because nothing is in isolation…

Bolt: Everyone understands that that is the argument But we’re just trying to get basic facts, without worrying about the consequences - about what those facts may lead people to think. On our own, by cutting our emissions, because it’s a heavy price to pay, by 5 per cent by 2020, what will the world’s temperatures fall by as a consequence?

Flannery: Look, it will be a very, very small increment.

Bolt: Have you got a number? I mean, there must be some numbers.

Flannery: I just need to clarfy in terms of the climate context for you. If we cut emissions today, global temperatures are not likely to drop for about a thousand years.

Bolt: Right, but I just want to get to this very basic fact, because I’m finding it really curious that no one has got (this) fact. If I buy a car … I want to know how much it costs and whether it is going to do the job.

Flannery: Sure.

Bolt: In this case I want to know the cost of cutting our emissions by 5 per cent by 2020 and will it do the job: how much will the world’s temperatures fall by if Australia cuts its emissions by this much.

Flannery: Look, as I said it will be a very, very small increment.

Bolt: Can you give us a rough figure? A rough figure.

Flannery: Sorry, I can’t because it’s a very complex system and we’re dealing with probabilities here.

Bolt: …I’m just trying to get the facts in front of the public so we know what we’re doing. Just unbiased. Is it about, I don’t know, are you talking about a thousandth of a degree? A hundredth of a degree? What sort of rough figure?

Flannery: Just let me finish and say this. If the world as a whole cut all emissions tomorrow the average temperature of the planet is not going to drop in several hundred years, perhaps as much as a thousand years because the system is overburdened with CO2 that has to be absorbed and that only happens slowly.

Bolt: That doesn’t seem a good deal… Someone surely must have done the sums that for all these billions of dollars we’re spending in programs that it’s got to have a consequence in terms of cutting the world’s temperature. So you don’t know about Australia, you wouldn’t dispute that it’s within about a thousandth of a degree, around that magnitude, right?

Flannery: It’s going to be slight.


http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/mtr_today_march_25/

http://www.mtr1377.com.au/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=8274

[hoytedow]

Wow, indeedy!

[BATAAN]

Back on Chinese junks.... Here's a pic I found of BERTIE sailing near Port Townsend a couple of years ago. On the left side of picture the schooner GRAIL is passing us with her blue racing fisherman's topsail set.

[Lister]

An interresting model, said to be the largest ship built at the time.
Lister

http://wapedia.mobi/thumb/4176501/en/fixed/470/353/Zheng_He%2527s_ship_compared_to_Columbus%2527s.jpg?format=jpg

[Lister]

Zheng He was a famous Chinese mariner, explorer, diplomat and fleet admiral, who led his fleet of 240 ships for circumnavigation of the world nearly one century prior to Christopher Columbus.


Lister

[MastMonkey]

I have often seen twin masts, especially astern, on Junks. On the large model above it seems plausible due to its apparent beam (talk about a great liveaboard!). I would compare it to the biplane rig on a catamaran. But I have seen it on much smaller ships as well, shown below. Does anyone know what the purpose was?

[BATAAN]

I have often seen twin masts, especially astern, on Junks. On the large model above it seems plausible due to its apparent beam (talk about a great liveaboard!). I would compare it to the biplane rig on a catamaran. But I have seen it on much smaller ships as well, shown below. Does anyone know what the purpose was?
The windward mizzen mast is always in clean air. On a normal vessel with a centerline mizzen, it's often backwinded by the main when on the wind. Theory only, but from many years of sailing a Chinese main rigged yawl. Also there is twice the area of mizzen, an advantage since junks use light canvas rarely.

[MastMonkey]

Thanks,

I figured it probably had to do with keeping the mizzen in clean air. I just wondered if there was a less intuitive reason. I was thinking maybe they believed they were catching the wind of the front and back of the mainsail independently. It would seem strange to fly both at one time, the leeward sail would always be in the wind shadow. I wonder if the payoff is enough to make up for the extra drag. That is one thing that I like about studying Chinese Junks, they are boundless examples practical and unique problem solving.

[Lister]

The sails of a junk are typical lug sails as depicted on the stamps to the left and right. They are made of plaited mats and stabilized with long bamboo battens.


http://web.me.com/myronpm/Topics/picjpg8/luggersegel1.jpg

http://web.me.com/myronpm/Topics/picjpg8/rahsegel6.jpg

http://web.me.com/myronpm/Topics/picjpg8/luggersegel2.jpg

[BATAAN]

A few more photos of Junks and Junk yacht ideas that have been built and used. Upper color pics are Big Eye Chicken in 1970s. Note slavish (why invent when you can copy?) resemblance to BERTIE's new mainsail being bent on here a few years ago. Applying traditional industrial cargo carrying or heavy fishing sail technology, of any origin, to modern yacht usage is a delicate path due to generally smaller size and much less proportional displacement. BERTIE, being a fat 18th century workboat essentially like SPRAY, took to the huge heavy sail well due to her absurdly stiff initial stability. We put the mast head in the water at least once and she always came back up very violently to upright, so I guess the rule of thumb design worked in this instance. I know she strains her rig badly under some conditions so needs the wire shrouds and stays.
Allen Farrell did a nice job of really making a less stiff, medium displacement, shallow draft, practical coastal cruising Junk Yacht in CHINA CLOUD. Last photo by Dag Goering from Maria Coffey's book "Sailing Back in Time" to be recommended to those who love the whole idea of sailing paradise in a boat built of beach scavenged logs in the woods with hand tools, getting it right, and actually being a very good sailor as well as artist, writer, linguist, gymnast, etc. along with his wife Sharie. Note his much lighter rigging than BERTIE, because CC does not need it, nor as large a mainsail. CC is about the same LWL but half the displacement of B.
Allen had a heavier displacement, more long distance design, in his mind to build after this one but it never was as he was in his 80s and this was enough boat for him and should be for almost anybody. To the end, no engine of any kind, just a Yuloh and a long pole for shallows. The rudder is in hoisted position grounded out on the beach in British Columbia. Under sail it was lowered almost two feet to make a centerboard effect.
I never 'sailed' with him but spent a lazy late afternoon aboard CC in Bargain Bay in a dead calm with all sail up, waiting for a wind listening to stories of sixty years of commercial fishing, building dozens of boats and all the magic of a dying day as the sun set.

[BATAAN]

Here's an imbed of some footage sailing BERTIE to British Columbia in 98.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Zw6mdrcDL1o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[BATAAN]

Correction on the youtube address.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw6mdrcDL1o

[BATAAN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KIogS_ftM8
Very lovely trailer with actual junk sailing footage for film on junk FREE CHINA, now rotting away near Bethel Is. CA and needing love. Got to crawl all over her for a day in the 70s when Harry Dring had her. Built 1870s and fished all her life. 80 some years old when came across Pacific to SF. Very interesting construction of flat bottom and sides of split logs left round on one side, many camphor wood bulkheads with huge grown 'floor timber' lower sections, all edge-nailed and the iron wasn't as rusty as you'd expect. When I viewed she was about 100.

[BATAAN]

Part two of BERTIEs trip to BC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFb3AfxxgO0

[BATAAN]

Part three
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIBDOUSd-Ag

[BATAAN]

Part three has a lot of BERTIE surfing downwind with no one steering.

[BATAAN]

Junks crossing the Pacific and more.
http://chinesejunkboats.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/phdCJ.pdf

[Lister]

Junks crossing the Pacific and more.
http://chinesejunkboats.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/phdCJ.pdf

Bataan this seams to be an amazing paper. Thank you for posting it.
I really enjoy your films, I didn't know you are a filmmaker, and a very good one.
Lister

[BATAAN]

Thanks Lister. Hope our horror movie makes a buck, crass as it sounds.
Boatbuilder wins a million dollars, reporter asks him what he's going to do with it, boatbuilder says, "Oh same thing until it's gone I guess".
Same thing with movies, but it's all a crap shoot and we may have a hit.

[hoytedow]

Someone did a fantastic job on the make-up! It even looks like the clavicle is showing through the wound.

[BATAAN]

What make up?

[hoytedow]

LOL. No active oozing means not real. She would be pale at least from shock. Ergo, make-up. Either no pain or great endorphines. Impressive.

[BATAAN]

She's been dead about an hour and a half and getting a little dry.

[BATAAN]

See our new film for terrifying horror that will make sure you never feel quite the same in the dark ever again.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1648217/
The first time I read the story idea I couldn't sleep and kept turning on the light all night.

[hoytedow]

I hope it makes you tons of dough!

[BATAAN]

Saw this in the dark at haunted Preston Castle.
http://www.ghosteyes.com/haunted-preston-castle-ione-california

[BATAAN]

Scary place. We tried to shoot a silly teen age horror movie and it turned into something else.
http://www.nops.us/blog/2010/11/29/preston-castle.html

[hoytedow]

The make-up on Heather looks more realistic. Very.

[BATAAN]

She looks better here with Mackenzie.

[BATAAN]

Modern light equipment gives incredible cinema images at ridiculously low cost if you know how to light, stage and write them.

[BATAAN]

This poor kid, that terrible car accident, and don't forget the zombie killer pigs.