Troller Yachts vs Trawler Yachts

[Greenseas2]

A boat design than has come to the forefront of long distance cruising boats in the 30 foot to 40 foot range is Troller Yacht, as in salmon trollers of the Nortwest. These boats were designed to be off shore trolling for salmon with a crew of one or two. They were also designed to troll continuously and were very economical to build and operate. It would seem prudent to design long range trollers for economical cruising rather than the now popular trawlers that are plagued with a lot of fuel burning stern drag.
Troller styled vessel would be slighly longer than their trawler counter parts due to being double ended and more efficient. Draft wouldn't vary much; however, there will be lower power requirements top achieve the same, or greater, speed as higher powered trawlers. Accommodations wouldn't vary significantly.
In this day and age of rising fuel costs, with even higher costs anticipated in the future, it might be a worthy effort to begin focusing on replacing trawlers with trollers. Lately there have been several new boats built on the Monterey trawler hull design. It's well worth looking into, and all comments regarding design and layout are welcome.

[marshmat]

What's often marketed as a "trawler" these days generally bears little resemblence to a real trawler. The recent trend is towards trawler styling on a fat semidisplacement hull, instead of the efficient displacement hull that real trawlers tend to have. I would be quite interested to see some boats such as you describe coming into the recreational vessel markets- there is an amazing lack of efficient, low-power motor yachts right now.

[Greenseas2]

There's a classic example, but some what spartan asm accomodations go, listed on Yachtworld.com. Just type in "Monetery Clipper". The nice thing about the listing is that a commercial fiberglass builder is listed also. It definitely would be an advantage to start a production run of these double enders in the 25 through 40 foot range. I'm flying out to San Francisco on May 17 to look at this particular boat and hopefully bring back construction frawings from which someone may want to produce. I think that there would be a lot of interest in these small long distance trollers.

[fcfc]

Mode hideous TROLL on
If you do not have money to pay the fuel bill, you do not have enougth money to buy a new boat and will not interest as potential customer any boat builder. The fuel bill is a very very very small percentage of a boat overall cost, even at 100$ the barrel with a 2 * 1000 hp boat.
Mode hideous TROLL off

More seriously:
"3.1.d The issue of fuel cost differentials does not appear to be a significant one"

In this paper :
http://www.rina.org.uk/rfiles/HISWA/2004/18th%20-9-%20THE%20APPLICATION%20OF%20SLENDER%20HULL%20TECHNOLOGY%20IN%20POWERED%20YACHTS%20AND%20SMALL%20COMMERCIAL%20CRAFT.pdf

From architect Nigel Irens who have designed some most efficient powerboats as Ilan Voyager or cable wireless Adventurer

http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/FRAMEpower.htm

[Greenseas2]

Being that you are in the UK, you probably have not had any experience with the Pacific salmon trollers which are about as an efficient a boat design as any made. If they are so horrendous, why are most of the British motorsailers and many power boats double ended and deep like the Monterey trollers that evolved from the Med designs? Learn a little about hydrodynamics before commenting please.

[marshmat]

Rich people don't get that way by wasting money.
A more efficient boat gets used more often. There is definitely demand for more efficient boats, but marketing types tend to promote accomodation per unit length (which leads to short, wide hulls) and speed (which leads to big engines to push said short wide hulls).
Friends of mine with 140hp bowriders use them 50+ times a season. Those with bigger, gas-guzzling boats use them less, typically 5-10 times per season. As one put it, his boat (38' express cruiser) may have been $400k, but at four hundred bucks to feed it for 100km it's just not economical to do that often. I often hear from owners of boats much larger than mine that if the boat used half as much gas, they'd do longer cruises and cruise more often.

[Greenseas2]

I whole hearted agree with you. All of the big power boats at Club Med here haven't moved for months while the more economical boats are out frequently. While fuel consumption INITIALLY is a small percentage of over all costs, it is the single factor that appear to dictate frequency of usage and also determines long range capability along with long term cruising costs. Those who can afford big fuel bills, go for it, but the rest of us are content to cruise along in low consumption vessels. I recent ly brought our boat down from Annapolis, Maryland to south Florida with fuel consumption of 4 gallons a 10 hour day. That leaves more money for things I want to do to the boats such as the high end integrated nav package that was just installed. On top of that, we make our own biodiesel fuel at 46 cents a gallon. It's good to have money, but why waste it?

[Tad]

I've said it before, you can find it in this forum, the buying public are not interested in efficiency. It's like cars, people claim they really want high efficiency, but the tradeoffs are too big, thus they buy pickups and SUVs.

I've been pushing efficient hulls for many years, very few are seriously interested. Today I'm working on a 55' by 15' steel offshore cruiser that will have a 4 cylinder 107 HP Deere in it. People who know say don't do it, resale value will suffer, and they are right.

Trolling is a fishing method, not a particular style of boat. Trolling involves dragging a series of lures and hooks through the water at low speed to catch fish.

Monterey Boats, (never Montery Trollers though sometimes rigged as such) are native to San Francisco Bay. Influence is thought to be Latin European. They are often referred to as Monterey Clippers as they sometimes have traditional clipper bows. They are double ended and fairly small, 25'-40' long. They were used mostly as day boats, thus are not really intended for heavy loads.

Trollers further north, in Oregon and the PNW, are more influenced by Scandinavian design though they too were often double ended. Modern Salmon and Tuna trollers are all wide-transomed and deep, to handle tons of ice and fish caught over trips of a week or much more.

There have been a number of yachts marketed as Monterey boats over the years. The first Of note was built by CBA (Cruising Boats of America) in the early 1970's, 31' by 10' with displacement of about 12,000 pounds. She had a 60 HP Westerbeke for a max speed of 9 knots reported (on a good day downhill).

Later there was one designed by Ed Monk Sr., maybe 32-34'?, and I believe built on the West Coast. There is a design about 30' by Bill Garden, drawings at Mystic. There are two designs by Al Mason, a 35' with transom and a 37' double ender. None of these have much relation to the fishing boats except in above water styling.

All the best, Tad

[Greenseas2]

While the Monterey troller is not a specific design, it does speak of a design that is double ended , economically operated just as much as a today's pleasure trawlers are not of the fishing variety. While the rest of the world has grown accustomed to high fuel prices, we in the US are just begiining to realize that prices will only continue to rise. With this comes a sense reducing other costs in our lives. For boater that would rather be boating instead of having their boats sit at the dock, this means ecomomy of operation. I believe that it would not be erroneous to say that the day is near when the market for small long range econoical trollers types would be quite strong. Addressing the market with a nice monterey hull and already accepted trawler accommodation combined with stressing the economy of operation should enable a builder to take a meaningful number of orders at boat shows such as at Annapolis, Miami and Ft. Lauderdale. Small Monterey Clippers in the 27 to 32 foot range should gain wide acceptance. A good vessel itself is only half the effort to sell them, the rest is a strong marketing effort and moderate pricing.
I recently sold my 34 foot Mainship "trawler" that required 220 gallons of diesel fuel and bought another 30 foot vessel that only has an 18 gtallon tank and I get a lot more use out of the new one simply by virtue of the fact that it's infinitely more economical to operate. Please don't misunderstand, we do have all of the funds we need to live life well, but why waste money if you don't have to? I'm very happy that I only burn about 4.5 gallons a day and cruise at about 7 knots. I am quite sure that this cost of operation has more than a small following of current and future boat owners.

[SheetWise]

George Buehler claims the "Troller Yacht concept" as the inspiration for the Diesel Duck (http://dieselducks.com/Duck462study1.html) designs. As far as I can see, it's not an exceptionally narrow or light design -- they simply have a small profile above the hull -- with considerable profile above the water. I find his comparable HP specs very low -- is this real or optimistic? How does the design contribute? What else can any of you add about this design as a "troller"?

[Greenseas2]

Thanks for the input. A couple good qualities of the Monterey Clipper is that it is a dry boat with it's semi clipper bow. Secondly, with the stern design it's fairly safe when running inlets with the sea behind you. Granted it is a primarily considered a working vessel and not with a particularly deep molded hull. I feel that it would be more efficient as compared to todays trawlers such as the Nordic Tug and others similar.

[Tad]

StreetW,

Not even close, pure hype.

Greenseas,

Of course you can have a more efficient hull form, but that means people also have to travel slower, they (generally) are not interested in that. Tooling, marketing costs, and build cost will be roughly the same (very expensive) as everyone else building boats, so how do you convince folks that your boat is better? Perhaps build in China to fit in a container?

Tad

[Greenseas2]

Of course who ever builds a boat of the type would have to look at labor and materials costs, and some, Like Don Miller who owns Marine Trader, would most likely go to Taiwan. However, the discussion is aimed more at comparing effiency and economics between current production trawlers and the more efficient troller types with an eye on possible production.. There are a good percentage of people who like to travel long distances at a leisurely pace as economically as practical. Nordic, American and other tug/trawler sales numbers bear that out beyond any question of a doubt. To get some good data on troller design you can go to the Mystic Seaport archives and get a copy of the Montery Clipper originally designed by Harold C. Hanson, NA. Mystic archives number 18.105. I don't think that the efficiency of trawlers comes anywhere close those that are realized in troller design. As previously stated, they will be somewhat longer than production trawlers which means a higher S/L ratio with lower power for the same speed for starters.

[Guillermo]

....the buying public are not interested in efficiency...
I'm afraid I agree with you. Maybe what we could call 'connoisseurs' sailors, will look for fuel efficient boats, but those are the less. Among the growing number of people who go motor-boating nowadays, most of them use the boat only for short day trips, and that's why they go mostly for planning or semi-planning boats with high 'hotel' volumes. At least in my part of the world.
Also, although fuel bill is a concern, marina fees are a bigger one. An sleek, efficient long hull (or cat, as alternative), usually pays higher marina fees than shorter but less fuel efficient monohulls. As you have to pay marina fees 12 months a year, if you go out sailing only -let's say- 30 days a year because of many reasons (available time, family, weather, skills, etc.), fuel bill may not be your major concern.

[SheetWise]

fcfc --

I think the phrase "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" only makes sense to people who can't afford it.

People who can afford understand -- if they didn't ask, they wouldn't be able to afford it.

People who've earned their money still turn off lights when a room is not in use, adjust the thermostat for efficiency in their million dollar homes, and check the price of gasoline when they fill their 200k automobiles.

[Greenseas2]

Wondered when you would catch up to this thread. Agree with youbut am paralleling the motorsailer thread with similar technology. Boats that I talking about are in the 26 to 32 foot double ended class and predominently meant for the long range cruisers as compared to today's trawlers that advertise, "sleeps 10" then follows in the specs with 40 gallons of fuel and 10 gallons of water. Obviously a difference in philosophy with the high speed floating condos where only one person in ten can take a bath LOL. Ripe crew.
Seriously though, I do believe that the market is there, even though it may be limited. The direction that I will eventually go is a Monterey Clipper design that can be built of strip plank or laminate and geared for those who can't afford the big stuff, yet want to cruise long distance on the most efficient hull possible for the least amount of cruising costs. One big plus for this philosophy is that the folks that build them and use them won't suffer the immediate 25% depreciation when the boat goes out of the show room door that happens with "store bought" plastic. Those with bucks take a big hit with todays prices. I ordered the plans from mystic seaport and have made arrangements to see a couple of the original Montereys along with a Colvic Watson when we go to San Francisco next month. Hope to bring back some measurements and possibly some building plans that can be translated.

[Greenseas2]

Sheetwise, your answer is really impressive. I think that these forums are really to develop something good for the person whose income is lower than a Wall Street broker's. Of course, with jobs being as insecure as they are now, even those making good money might take an interest in nautical practicality. At any rate, this is geared to coming up with something for the "have nots" rather than the "haves". Lately too, there have been a lot of megayachts hitting the market. Maybe that's a not-so-subtle statement in favor of economy.

[Guillermo]

.. I ordered the plans from mystic seaport...
I'd love to have a look at them, whenever you decide to post them here.

[Greenseas2]

Guillermo, theres a good representation of a Monterey Clipper on Yachtworld.com. Type in "Monterey Clipper". It's a 32 footer. Unique is the air cooled Lister Diesel. I've seen them used in other commercial boats and, from what I understand, they are very reliable like the Saab diesels. Personally, I think a lot can be done with the design even on a relatively conservative mass production basis , but only in the 28 to 32 foot lengths. I just ordered the plans from Mystic Friday. There's a good parallel between the British double enders and the Monterey boats. Some difference, but not great. Both can be fitted with bilge keels for developemnt of a motorsailer that would operate economically. The hull design is pretty much in concrete but could use some suggestion on interior schemes and hull materials.

[Tad]

Greenseas,

I would suggest that the owner's of Nordic and America tugs know nothing and care less about efficiency under power. As mentioned above economy in the marina is more important than that underway. 37' boats 13'+ wide with 380 HP installed and a hull form to use it are nothing like efficient in my book. The speed is too high for the length and weight of the boat, thus they operate at about the most inefficient range possible.

The principals of naval architecture are simple and there is no need to revisit hulls from commercial boats or previous centuries. There are two main components to resistance, friction and wave making. Efficient hulls are created by reducing either or both of these. Make the hull longer, make it lighter, reduce entry and exit angles, and push it slower through the water, that is all it takes.

The market you are after is potential owners of Grand Banks 32's, currently there are 80 of these listed on Yachtworld, why? Decent build quality, low purchase price, economic operation, what is wrong with these boats?

Not to rain on your parade, just trying to be realistic. The world needs more pretty boats and I hope yours is one.

All the best, Tad

[Greenseas2]

Hi Tad,

[Greenseas2]

Just a few basic statistics: Grand Banks 32 with a water line of 30.75 feet and powered with a 135hp Ford Lehaman. S/L of 1:1 is 5.54 knots. Nimble 32 with a water line length of 29.3 feet and a S/L of 1:1 is 5.4 knots using 75 hp. , Monterery Clipper 32 has a water line of 26 feet and S/L of 1.1 that is 5.15 knots with a 35 hp diesel. It would appear that for a GB to hit 8 knots, he would just be turning the fuel can upside down. Optimum cryusing speed of all vessels are within about a half a knot. Whose fuel bill would you rather pay for 3 or 4 months to a year of cruising considering all have the same approximate amenities?

[Greenseas2]

The Monterey troller s hull is really a form found on canoe yawls and have a fine entry and exit. Appreciate your input on most effiocient hull design and that's what I'm really after. Do you have any recommendations for innovative fitting out. One item that I will have in my next, and 24th boat, is a chart platform right in front of, but higher than, the helm with engine instruments on the side bulkhead and navigation instruments forward of the chart table, but elevated some for easy reading. Chart table to be just large enough to hold a standard size chart set. Red goose next lamp of course. We had a lot of good comments from other captains who saw the modification to the lower helm on the Mainship. Great for night nav. I'm of the old school where you still make hourly plots on paper despite the fact that we have a complete integrated nav system. Just my own personal quirk.
I'm sure that the deck house can be designed for eye appeal. Thanks again for the input.

[Tad]

Greenseas,

See attached

6135

[Vega]

I've said it before, you can find it in this forum, the buying public are not interested in efficiency. It's like cars, people claim they really want high efficiency, but the tradeoffs are too big, thus they buy pickups and SUVs.


I agree.

I am a sailboat sailor but my wife hates to have to move away to allow me to trim the sails.
She would be very happy if I bought a motor boat, not any motor boat, but a Menorquin. She loves the boat and I have to say that of all motorboats, I rather like it.
So, in the Dusseldorf boat show, after visiting a lot of sailboats my wife said she wanted to see the Menorquins. The guy that showed us the boats was not a typical seller, but an important guy from the factory in Menorca (Menorquins are made in Menorca and are based on the old local fishing boats, the Llaüts). When we told him that Menorca is our preferred cruising ground and that we had sailed there (from Portugal) several times, he was really friendly toward us .
We talked about Menorca, and about Menorquins, not the sellers talk, but an interesting conversation about the Menorquin evolution. The first boats, many years ago, were motorsailors. Then clients favored motorboats, and when I asked why they put such ridiculous powerful motors in a no planning boat, he said smiling: I guess clients like to make a big bow wave.

http://www.menorquinyachts.net/en/index.php

[Greenseas2]

Tad, you made my day and proved a point with long range trollers. I do thank you.

[fcfc]

It is funny comments were only on the humoristical part of my post, and no one commented the paper from N Irens who compared his own design rangetec and Ilan voyager with a typical planning production boat Bavaria 33.

Another point, 80% of power boats are outboards planning hulls. The worst efficient engine on the worst efficient hull. So most powerboat owners clearly look for something other than fuel efficiency.

[FAST FRED]

"Of course, with jobs being as insecure as they are now, even those making good money might take an interest in nautical practicality."

With unemployment as low as it is today EVERYONE , but the "Professional Victims" are employed as much as they wish, as long as they wish.

"Lately too, there have been a lot of megayachts hitting the market. Maybe that's a not-so-subtle statement in favor of economy."

It sure IS ,,, When the lowly 135 fter is tossed out for the 165fter that can reach 40K cruise it definatly sez somthing about how fine todays economy in the US is , even for lowly boatbuilders.
At this time ALL the premium builders like PJ in the USA and Abiking & Rassmussen in old europe are booked SOLID for the next 5 years,

" Optimum cryusing speed of all vessels are within about a half a knot. Whose fuel bill would you rather pay for 3 or 4 months to a year of cruising considering all have the same approximate amenities?"

With about the same HP required for pushing water aside , at the same SL, the only difference in fuel bill would be an extra 2 hp for every extra ton of amenities displaced.

The fuel bills will be almost identical , tho the noisemaker on the GB running the air cond , water maker and keeping the huge freezer cool will drink from the fuel tank a tad.

I would rather pay for a bit of extra displacement drag than drink warm beer and eat canned "food". Once the amenities are equal , the fuel bills will be too.

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Ok Fred, Let's look at another issue rather than costs of fuel. Crude oil is a finite commodity in nature and the US uses 25% of the refined product according to Wall Street Journal statistics. Also forcasted by the financial gurus is the strong possibility of fuel rationing in the not to distant future. I expect to see it in my life time and I'm 68. We've experimented with biodiesel from used refined vegetable cooking oils in my boat, but what are the megas going to use? I take great comfort that I can isolate myself from OPEC, Exxon-Mobile and others> I also believe that, in time, the average boater will be looking more toward economy of operations rather than wasting fuel that they can't get. I wonder how high the pile of ground up fiberglass will get. As a classic example, GM iand Ford are in dire straights from still tryuing to sell huge SUV while honda and others are sailing along with economy cars. In 2007, foreign car makers are re-introducing the more efficient diesel car models. The trend is already being set. In 2007 I'll probably trash our new Caddy and buy a diesel for which I can make my own fuel. This also could very well be the future of boat design for those that would rather use their boats than be forced to have them sit at the dock.

[Greenseas2]

The design criteria that would be attractive to those who buy trawlers and mini tugs is basically of the "sit back and enjoy the scenery" type. I europe we see efficient motorsilers and power boats, in the US it's the mini-tugs and trawlers. Owners of these boats would certainly be interested in getting longer range out of their vessels on equal, or less, fuel capacity. The criteria that bears examination is (1) efficient hull and adequate accommodation design, (2) low power requirements, (3)large tankage capacity for both fuel and water and (4) possibly sail assist for down wind. In the power mode, this would equate to a double ended troller style hull.
Given a production boat with these qualities, it would seem that there would be a strong market of previous tug/trawler owners as well as those just entering that market. Of course, acceptance of the design is the same as acceptance of any other boat and depends on the approach to the market place through presence at boat shows, magazine advertisements and demonstration, plus favorable unpaid media attention.

[Greenseas2]

Hi Fred,
I'm sure that there are sufficient jiobs for those who want to work; howwever, careers aren't anywhere close to what they used to be. I'm sure that the layed off airline pilots planned to be flying planes until they retire, I also sure that the GM and Ford workers planned on a lifelong career. The same with almost every industry. Cetainly a person can work, but for how long and how much. The statistics now are that only 1 in 47 baby boomers will be able to retire. At some point in time, the manufacturers of the big yachts will most likely meet the same fate as GM and Ford and mostly due to petroleum (fiberglass/epoxy resin) product costs. It's already having a profound affect on the industry who are building fewer boats and selling them at higher prices. Same products for more money and frequently above product value. Use the old stock market P/E ratio to figure it out. This is one reason that new boats sold today take an immediate loss of up to 25% aftyer they are out the door and in to the used boat market within the same model year.

[fcfc]

"Owners of these boats would certainly be interested in getting longer range out of their vessels on equal, or less, fuel capacity"

NOPE. Typo
Corrected:

Owners of these boats would certainly be interested in getting longer range out of their vessels on equal, or less, TIME.

There are very few displacement mode trawlers. All (with some sale volume) are now at least semi displacement, if not full planning.

People who can afford a boat, accept displacement speed, and are concerned by fuel bills simply buy sailboats instead of powerboats.

[Guillermo]

.... I guess clients like to make a big bow wave.
:p Absolutely!
Even if they have to burn biodiesel, bananas or coal!

[FAST FRED]

"There are very few displacement mode trawlers. All (with some sale volume) are now at least semi displacement, if not full planning."

This is due to the fact that many NEW owners are indeed still working , so have a "need for speed" to get back to the office on Monday (or salt mine for the greenies).

The modern boats are being advetrised as buy & use it NOW ,
and slow down when you retire and have the time.

Doesn't work well as the engines and hull designs for SPEED are hardly suitable for plodding ,
and the 400hp engines die quite early when slobering at 2 gph "trawler" speeds.

"This is one reason that new boats sold today take an immediate loss of up to 25% aftyer they are out the door and in to the used boat market within the same model year."

Fraid you don't comprehend marketing and new sales .

Your new CAR will be worth less after a ride around the block,

A new motorcycle is worth far less with 10 miles in the clock,

A motorhone will be worth less 5 seconds after delivery.

So where is the suprise that a motorboat has the factory markup and dealer prep and markup LOST after first sale?

Remember too ALL the electronic gear aboard is dated about every other WEEK , so has little residual value , even when the boat is a month old.

SO the 25% price drop is normal, even higher loss if the electric goodies and State Sales Tax extortions are counted.

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Fred,
Good commodity comparisons and they're pretty much true LOL. Difference is the investment in a boat is quite a bit great and the loss more substantial. Still pushing efficiency and economy of operation for those who want low, slow and steady. Lately I've been doing some reading on George Beuhler and Harold C. Hanson hull designs and they both are in the ball park of long distance cruise boats with amenties similar to trawlers. Fortunately, there are many who don't have to be in the office or factory every day and would appreciate a small, long range boat to cruise with. Problem is with the high speed guys, they always seem to go to the same cove, waterside restaurant or marina. Not enough fuel, or time, to do some real traveling. I do expect to have some critics of thye design, but useful criticism is a learning experience also and shows the path to take to the market place.

[Corpus Skipper]

we make our own biodiesel fuel at 46 cents a gallon
Mind sharing that recipe with the rest of us? I'm starting to drool!:D

[Greenseas2]

Best to go to Biodiesel.org. There's a lot of information on the web to include small refinery equipment. Most of the equipment can be fabricated by yourself at less expense. Biodiesel.org also lists the biodiesel refineries and bulk sales in the US. It's good stuff and burns clean in my boat, plus, no sulfur. Here, I've made arrangements to pick up used vegetable cooking oil from 4 Dunkin Donut and it's almost more than I can use. Excess biodiesel fuel is sold at $1.50 per gallon to towns people with diesel trucks and cars. So far, no complaints.l

[marshmat]

I've said it before, you can find it in this forum, the buying public are not interested in efficiency. It's like cars, people claim they really want high efficiency, but the tradeoffs are too big, thus they buy pickups and SUVs.
True a few years ago. I think that's finally starting to change.
Cars, for example: Volkswagen has a 4-month waiting list for TDI-powered Jetta and Passat wagons- they get 5 litres per 100km and carry more gear than an Explorer. Prius and Civic Hybrid sales are skyrocketing while GM and other truck-heavy companies are suffering. I think the public is starting to become a bit wiser to the realities of non-renewable resources.

[Greenseas2]

Matt,
People are getting hit where it hurts....in the wallet. I'm very thankful that my kids are grown and on their own. Raising a family with today's economic could be very tough. Almost every segment of industry has been adversely affected by fuel prices. Let's face it, after crude oil is gone, what does OPEC have? sand and few investments that aren't enough to sustain a country. I believe the time to concentrate on building fuel efficient and biofuel boats is near at hand.

[Willallison]

Excuse my late entry to this debate - been away playing with a (fairly thirsty;) ) boat for a couple of weeks...
I'll side firmly with Tad on this one. The reality is that the vast majority of boat owners use their boat for short breaks, travelling only a short distance each day. There are exceptions of course - and for these people there are exceptional boats available - or of course there's the otpion of custom building.
Let me use the example of the new Camano 41, reviewed in the most recent issue of Passagemaker magazine. Before commencing construction of this vessel, the builders did extensive research and found that boaters spend 90% of their time aboard either at anchor or tied to a dock. Of those who travelled further afield, few spent more than 4 hours each day underway. Now, based on the info in the article, I would expect that the people the builders interviewed would use their boats for more extensive cruising than most would...
So, the question - for most people - is whether they buy a fat 40 footer that does 2mpg, but which enjoys a comfortable, almost home-like interior. Or a slender 50 footer, with its higher associated build and berthing costs, that does say 4mpg.
The answer - once again, for most people - is firmly the former - particularly if they want their wives to come along as well!:D The distances they travell simply don't warrant going along with the compromises that are a necessary component of economical travel

[fcfc]

Biodiesel is NOT compatible with current high efficiency european diesels. The current electronically injection pressure is 23500 psi (1600 bars). The max allowed is 5% of biodiesel, unless you want 5000-7000$ repair in your engine.

And this is EN590 biodiesel industrially produced (in germany) with controlled characteristics, not the one you make in your backyard.

New euro IV catalysed diesel with NOx filters does not tolerate at all ANY biodiesel. It will ruin the catalysor and fool the electronic control unit.

[FAST FRED]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Fred, Let's look at another issue rather than costs of fuel. Crude oil is a finite commodity in nature and the US uses 25% of the refined product according to Wall Street Journal statistics. Also forcasted by the financial gurus is the strong possibility of fuel rationing in the not to distant future.

Fuel "rationing" in a free society is done by PRICE , not the usual Nomenclactura of the command societies.

The DOE sez there are over 3 trillion bbl of recoverably oil , about 30 years at the current growth rate.

In 30 years we will beusing Fusion , and the cars will all not polute as they will be powered by flywheels.
This Tech has been avilable for a decade or more , using composite flywheels in a vacume can with good bearings , the ability to store about 10 to 12 gal worth of fuel of energy . The reason it does not exist is the "Liars for Hire" are salivating at the thought of an accident where ALL 10g of energy is released at once.
So no mfg is brave enough.

Perhaps the Chinese slaves will be happy to get a clean cheap vehicle and not worry about legalities/ hassles of a 150,000rpm flywheel running after hitting an ox.

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Why then did Pennsylvania, Delaware and two other states run out of gas and diesel just this weekend? Why also is the White House and Congress so concerned about the supply and fuel prices. Also why is there now a 4 month wait to get diesel cars. Most of what I'm reading as criticism is opposite of real world life. I still maintain the arguement in favor of efficient hull designs that can provide seaworthiness and long range at ecomomical fuel consumption rates. A good little example is a 33 foot fiberglass Monk trawler on Yachtworld.com that has a 50 hp diesel, 116 gallon fuel capacity and a range of 1,080 miles at 7 knots. Basically the hull design is one from Monk's troller work boat designs.

[Vega]

Most of what I'm reading as criticism is opposite of real world life. I still maintain the arguement in favor of efficient hull designs that can provide seaworthiness and long range at ecomomical fuel consumption rates.

That seems logical to me. But the market is who decides what trends will be dominant.

The cars analogy is hardly applicable here, because you use the car everyday in a utilitarian way.

The boats we are talking about are pleasure craft, in many cases expensive toys. If you are using a boat to travel a lot (and use it a lot) then you are right. But the ones that use the boats that way have normally sailboats or motorsailors. Motorboaters (big boats) use their boats rarely. In many cases they are show off machines that measure their wealth and power. Those guys normally travel with a small professional crew, and that is more expensive than the fuel they waste (because they don't use their boats very much).

As someone has said the high end motorboat market is doing very well, with, in some cases, several years of delay to get a boat.
On the other hand, as Marshmat said : I would be quite interested to see some boats such as you describe coming into the recreational vessel markets- there is an amazing lack of efficient, low-power motor yachts right now.

Perhaps what is amazing is not the lack of that kind of boats on the market, but the deliberate option of motor boaters for expensive toys instead of efficient boats, or perhaps what they really want are beautiful toys (nothing wrong with having nice toys).

[Greenseas2]

There are boats that clearly are used to demonstrate, and flaunt, an owners wealth, and toys are good also. The boats that Irefer to that would be acceptable to a buying public would be an efficient variant to the thousands of trawlers on both the new and used boat market today. Aboat that could be used for lower operating costs with similar, or better, amenities, would be accepted in to the market place with relative ease. We're not refering to high volume mass production, but rather a product of several smaller producers with their own design difference but similar under wayter efficiency and tankage. The nice thing about boats with small diesels is that the owners can produce their own Biodiesel for much less than petroeum based diesel and about 15% of the cost. The large and fast boats stil;l remain at the mercy, or lack of, the big oil companies. I use biodiesel in my own boat. It's clean burn and has no engine deteriorating sulfur. I plan to open an new thread on biofuels today. It goes hand in hand with efficient hulls for motor cruisers as well as sail assisted motor sailer.

[marshmat]

The large and fast boats stil;l remain at the mercy, or lack of, the big oil companies.
Not a problem when, as is often the case with 200+ footers, you own either the oil company or the country it drills in!:D

[Greenseas2]

LOL and agree, but how many people are there at the top of the oil industry that have boats or yachts.

[Vega]

LOL and agree, but how many people are there at the top of the oil industry that have boats or yachts.

A lot. Probably they use them to give nice parties and little more. But they can not do without them :D... really important ....for status

[Greenseas2]

I assessing the market for troller type efficient boats, we're looking more toward the hard working family who wants to cruise and save their bucks while doing so. Mega yachts are in another realm. However we noticed locally that deck parties at the dock on the big guys has become the norm as has a 1 hour cruise to a local water front restaurant where they hog all of the dock space in order to be able to strut their stuff and look down from the hundred story fly bridge on us peons eating sea food (uncatered of course). Then on the other hand, I've seen great little boats pass the megas where everyone on the mega rushes over to the side to see the little guy with more than a little envy in their eyes. I'm all for designing for those who have, but have little.

[FAST FRED]

we're looking more toward the hard working family who wants to cruise and save their bucks while doing so.

The std choice for 5000 years has been the sailboat.

Many Many circumnavigations have been done in quite small boats that are very inexpensive.

Most of the high cost today is "luxuries, fridge , freezer , air cond and a huge variety of electric gadgets that hope to relieve the crew from needing to learn to navigate.

" I've seen great little boats pass the megas where everyone on the mega rushes over to the side to see the little guy with more than a little envy in their eyes."


Not "envy " in their eyes , its the BOREDOME of Marine Motoring , nothing to do but look over the side as the paid hand steers.

ANY motorboat that is truly designed as a displacement cruiser will go about the same speed , on the same fuel.
The lower hull speeds of the double enders can be accomidated with just a bit more power.

Free power (the breeze) makes the most sense if distance is a requirement with low bucks.

FAST FRED

[SeaSpark]

A popular Dutch boating magazine (Waterkampioen) organised a contest in 1999 for an economical, easy to build motor cruiser.

Winner of the contest was the well known company van de Stadt design.

http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds431.htm

Building in progess:

http://www.yachtservices.dk/stadtline38.htm

The drawing package and building manual for this yacht is very comprehensive. The yachts easy construction (outside frame method) make it possible for a not so experienced builder to build one. Stadt have lots of experience in wood epoxy design so think they could develop drawings for this type of construction.

I'm not so fond of the superstructure but the hull has proved to be very efficient at low speeds.

[Greenseas2]

Seaspark: Thanks for the information. I'll check it out
Fred, while sail is a good source of powering a boat, what I'm looking for is a good double endeed design that would be affordable to those who want to cruise under power. For one thing, seniors don't like the idea of having to go on deck at night or in heavy seas and prefer the comfort and security of a pilothouse. A double ended troller is a lot more efficient than a box ended trawler in any case. The idea of the thread is to come up with a nice small troller that is economically operated. The second part of the desired equation is for the boat to also be operated with inexpensive biodiesel. Put the two together and there is a win win combination. As I said previosly, extremes can be applied to any situation to create negatives. With this combination, negatives would be hard to find or create.
Stubborn is my middle name!

[Guillermo]

Smaller than what you are looking for, but a very nice design, from my point of view:
http://www.gartsideboats.com/catpow.php#143
Cheers.

[Vega]

[B], what I'm looking for is a good double endeed design that would be affordable to those who want to cruise under power. !

What about this one?

I Would say that Guillermo likes this boat:D


http://www.botentekoop.nl/objectDetails.aspx?ID=405175

[Greenseas2]

The boat is getting close to what I think would be ideal. It appears that it might be a motorsailer wait for mast and rigging, but a beautiful boat in any case.

[Guillermo]

...I Would say that Guillermo likes this boat:D
Yeap! :)
She's is a custom Banjer, named DE WIDJE BLIK, owned by a member of the Banjer 37 Motorsailer Club, who worked at the Eista Werf boatyard. The boat was outstanding and in extraordinary good condition when I visited her in 2001, when the Banjers Gathering that year.

Taking the opportunity, I enclose an image (not very good) of a motor Banjer from the drawing table of Dick Lefeber, Banjer series (And many others) designer. The model never was built. It was to be called 'Super Banjer'. Also an image of Dick, in memoriam.

"Dick Lefeber’s designs are characterized by their attractive, timeless lines, functionality and space.
He started out as a draughtsman/designer with an inland boatyard, where he designed flat-bottomed vletten (classic Dutch motor cruisers), tugs, inland vessels and fishing cutters.
It was in the 60s and 70s, when Dick Lefeber worked for ‘Eista Werf’, that he really won his spurs by designing the popular Doerak and Marak models. He also drafted the well-known Rogger, Banjer and Krammer designs. In that period he developed at least 40 models and variants in steel and polyester. He went on to design countless Lemster Aken and Staverse Kotters for ‘traditional’ builders."

[Vega]

The boat is getting close to what I think would be ideal. It appears that it might be a motorsailer wait for mast and rigging, but a beautiful boat in any case.

This kind of boats comes in the line of old fishing working boats. Those lines began many centuries ago and have been perfected by generations of seamen. They were sailing boats and sometimes they had oars too.
For some time those working boats got motors and maintained also their sails. Then, by pressure of a rushing life (time is money), they lost their sails (and a little of their souls) and became motorboats...but maintained the time proved hull shape.

Now the story repeats itself with the pleasure descendants.

That’s nothing new to see a motorsail losing its sails. I don't like it, but I have to admit that they are still fine nice boats...and after all they were already good and efficient motorboats when they were motorsailors.

Take a look at this old and beautiful “Menorquin” motorsailor. Well, for many years now they have lost their sails (and also their rational side – they have now huge motors) but they are still beautiful seaworthy boats.

[Willallison]

Fred - Free power (the breeze) makes the most sense if distance is a requirement with low bucks.

It's a mistake to think that buying a sailboat will save you money. Many times I've seen the results of studies that show that a full displacement power boat is indeed less costly to buy and own. This basically comes down to the cost of the rigging and the structure required to support it. Few would consider building a sailboat without and engine, so there is little or no saving there. Further, (most) sailors spend more time under power than they would care to admit. And of course the cost of maintenance for a sailboat is often higher - not simply as a result of having to replace sails etc, but often because (many) sailboat owners tend to neglect the ongoing maintenance of their powerplants.
Obviously not always the case, but certainly worth bearing in mind....

Greanseas - the only real advantage that I can see to having a canoe stern is to 'spilt' overtaking waves whilst in a running sea. You don't need a canoe stern to avoid having a squared-off submerged transom - it is of course the underwater shape that determines how slippery a given hullshape is...
Ok - if you like the styling, that's something else. But as always there are other aspects to consider - a canoe stern for instance will generally mean the loss of a boarding platform and a considerable loss of cockpit space.

[SeaSpark]

The boats posted by Vega and Guillermo look infinitely better then the v/d Stadt.

For as far as i understood (despite the name) the scope of this thread was to find a boat that is inexpensive to build, maintain and power. This means we should be looking for a boat of light displacement, easy in construction with use of conventional materials to keep costs down. The last two examples are beautiful but sort of heavy in displacement and complex in construction.

Perhaps we can restart the discussion in a "affordable, low fuel consumption, good looking motor cruiser thread?

(edit: i'd hate to start a thread for a boat with no sails)

[Vega]

Fred -

It's a mistake to think that buying a sailboat will save you money. Many times I've seen the results of studies that show that a full displacement power boat is indeed less costly to buy and own. .

It all depends on how many miles you travel each year.

Go and circumnavigate and take a look at the fuel costs, on the other hand I know a guy that crossed the Atlantic with less than 30 gallons, or a guy that has made it from the US to Australia with 10 gallons (mostly for the batteries) and fast too.

[Willallison]

Vega - without wanting to hijack this thread, or turn it into a sail vs power debate - I'm not suggesting that it's always less expensive to own a powerboat, just that it's certainly not always the opposite..... buying, owning and operating a boat (as I know you are well aware) is about a lot more than the cost of fuel.

[Vega]

Willallison, I agree with that.
I am not a "fundamentalist" about sailing boats (or anything), but this is a very interesting discussion and I would like to continue and get deeper in this.
Perhaps if there are more members interested in this, we can open a new thread about it?
Not to defend sail boats, but to really see the pros and cons of each kind of boat, regarding cruising costs, price of the boat and maintenance.

[Greenseas2]

I agree that the two boats are really great. I do like the canoe stern design as we do, all too often, run relatively rough inlets like Manasquan in New Jersey. Almost all inlets on the east coast of the US have inlet channels on the ICW in the shape of a V where the base of the V is near the mouth of the inlet. This means that a boat will be getting stern seas going either north bound or south bound. The motorsailers without a mast and larger fuel capacity may be the answer.n You guys do good work.

[Greenseas2]

The idea of a cruising vessel with long range and low fuel consumption may be the direction that we all are taking. Fire up the new thread and we'll be there.

[bananabender]

Apart from the $$$Nordhavns there are a few genuine displacement cruisers around... I drive a Roberts Waverunner displacement 40, steel, weighs in around 16 tonnes with 1800litres of fuel and water. Power is a Cummins 6B naturally aspirated, set up for 115 continuous HP at 2500rpm but governed back to 2050rpm since it was obviously overpowered at 2500. Fuel burn is 12-15 litres/hr at 8.5knots by GPS when the underside is clean. I suspect significant savings would be available at 7K but haven't measured consumption at this speed.

We don't miss water skiing behind and it's nice to sit back, make a cup of tea, and drink it while the Whitsundays go past. (see Google for details!) Motor sizes in US cruising boats amaze me... I see the occasional "Passagemaker".

Happy boating...
Bananabender.

[fcfc]

"long range and low fuel consumption"

Already done long ago.

http://www.morrellimelvin.com/powerboats/cruising/040-Yanmar.html
http://boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/529

You probably missed something in your request.

[Vega]

"long range and low fuel consumption"

Already done long ago.

http://www.morrellimelvin.com/powerboats/cruising/040-Yanmar.html
http://boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/529

You probably missed something in your request.

I have searched the forum before about it, and again with : "long range and low fuel consumption" and I only got this:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/search.php?searchid=511224

Not really what I want to discuss. And I have not talked about long range, only cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat. Most sailors do cruise, but few do long range cruising. Why restrict the discussion?
I am going to open the new thread on the Design category and it is going to be a short post, because I have to work:(
I'll be there again in the evening:)
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11479

[Vega]

The motorsailers without a mast and larger fuel capacity may be the answer.n You guys do good work.

Hum, That boat (that particular Banjer) is a 36ft with a 105hp and his fuel tank can carry 750L (500L of water). How big do you want that fuel tank to be?;)

http://www.michellippens.nl/newsfiles/135.php

[Vega]

"long range and low fuel consumption"

Already done long ago.

http://www.morrellimelvin.com/powerboats/cruising/040-Yanmar.html
http://boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/529

You probably missed something in your request.

Sorry, I miseanderstood. You mean the boat, not the thread!:D
Welcome to the discussion;) (on the new thread)
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11479

[Greenseas2]

In studying hanson troller designs further, the underwater hull design is quite close to being that of efficent sailing vessels. The hull flares at the strn above the waterline for extra work deck space and to handle following seas. His illustraztion of the 30 foot troller is a good example of an efficient hull design for economical long range cruising. These are work boats that also had to carry a lot of weight in gear, ice and fish.

[Guillermo]

Banjers (37' motorsailers) have a canoe stern and deep vee hull with full length keel, so lots of wetted surface. Full load displacement around 13 tonnes.
My boat's engine is a Perkins M 4-236 delivering a maximum of 71 HP DIN (86 HP SAE) at 2500 rpm. Continuous is 61 DIN (74 SAE) at 2250 rpm.
Propeller is a 28" x 18" three bladed one, SAR 55%, slip around 22%. Reduction gear ratio, 3:1.

At 1.06 Fn Banjers do 6.0 knots (Tested. Clean hull, calm seas, full load) at 1300 rpm of the mentioned engine, the prop absorbing something like 14 HP of the 39 HP (DIN) available from engine at that rpm (These last two data estimated, as power-rpm curves are not available).

By the way: Somebody has those curves for this engine? I'd appreciate very much if he/she makes them available to me).

Fuel consumption at this Fn is 1.08 Lts/mile (6.5 lt/h) or 0.29 gall/mile (1.72 gall/h). With a 900 lts tank, allowing for a non-usable 10%, range goes to 748 miles, if I worked out numbers correctly. At hull speed (around 7.5 kn) mileage comes down to 500 and consumption rises to around 12 lt/h

[Greenseas2]

Hi Guillermo,
The Banjer hull would indeed make the basis for a good long raange cruising boat under power and has the capacity for additional tankage. Newer engines are coming on the market that are even more efficient. Man Diesel used to put out a slow turning diesel that could swing a large prop. Don't know if they still do. But the combination of the Banjer hull with a slow turning fuel efficient engine would be a winner for sure. This al;most parallels hulls and power on Pacific salmon trollers.

[Guillermo]

Attached you'll find the very nice and slender lines of a beautiful 50' old wooden Irish fishing boat.

Main data:
LOA: 50' (15.24 m)
LWL: 46' 8" (14.2 m)
Beam, outside planking: 15' 6" (4.7 m)
Draft, forward: 3' 9" (1.15 m)
Draft, aft: 5' 6" (1.67 m)
Displacement: 28.43 tons (28.9 ton)
Midship section area: 32.72 sqft (3.04 sqm)
Prismatic coeficient: .652

Lines are similar to those of Banjers, although more 'champagne glass' style (Banjers' are more 'wine glass' style)
Banjers' Lines at: http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/lines_sailing.htm

Cheers

[SAQuestor]

In studying hanson troller designs further, the underwater hull design is quite close to being that of efficent sailing vessels. The hull flares at the strn above the waterline for extra work deck space and to handle following seas. His illustraztion of the 30 foot troller is a good example of an efficient hull design for economical long range cruising. These are work boats that also had to carry a lot of weight in gear, ice and fish.

Indeed. And pray tell where one can see these designs? The books are out of print (obviously) and do not seem to be available in the normal used book shops.

Thanks

[Tad]

Okay, I love the styling of the Banjer and all the old fishboats. But, once again, they are not efficient users of fuel.

The Banjer is using 6.5 lts/hr or about 1.7usg/hr for 6 knots, this is about 3.5 nautical miles per US gallon. This is decent, but much more fuel than I want to buy every day. In comparison the Memory 38 cruises at 7.2 knots on .75 usg/hr for about 9.6 mpg. The Arthur Martin designed Energy 48 cruises at 8.6 knots on .75gph for 11.6 mpg.

About the best mileage I can find is the attached motorsailer by Phil Bolger. He estimates she will cruise at 6 knots with a 16HP Yanmar getting about 20mpg and considerably more with some use of the sails. A 35' version of this would be awsome!

That is efficient use of fuel, anything less is purely styling.

All the best, Tad

6434 6435 6436

[Guillermo]

Okay, I love the styling of the Banjer and all the old fishboats. But, once again, they are not efficient users of fuel. ..
I know, Tad. Heavy weight long keelers and, on top of that, mounting old engines, are not the most fuel efficient boats you can find, absolutely. But they are handsome, aren't they?... :)
I post them because greenseas2 is talking about trolling type boats, which I understand are more or less the style.
I'm not favouring this type of old style motorsailers. I think nowadays there are many other nice ones, with a medium D/L ratio, let's say from 250 to 300 (Banjers' is 400+) , with much less wetted surface and better fuel efficient engines.

[SAQuestor]

About the best mileage I can find is the attached motorsailer by Phil Bolger. He estimates she will cruise at 6 knots with a 16HP Yanmar getting about 20mpg and considerably more with some use of the sails. A 35' version of this would be awsome!

That is efficient use of fuel, anything less is purely styling.

I corresponded with Bolger coming on to two years ago about creating a design similar to the one you attached, except longer. He was uninterested because he said he has so many projects in the works that he wants to finish before he is finished - which will be a sad day indeed.

Tad, couldn't one use the underwater form, the box keel and chine, and then "style" the topsides to be a bit less boxy? Do you suppose that the boat would still be as efficient as Bolger suggests? Or is there something else to this design that I'm missing makes it fuel efficient?

[Tad]

I know....But they are handsome, aren't they?... :)

Yes they are:D

Guillermo, I know you know, it’s those that aren’t aware of alternatives that I would post for. I emailed you a power curve for the Perkins, to your Banjer address. It would seem that at the RPM and fuel use you quoted you are using much more HP than suggested by the Perkins Prop curve?

SeaQ, The Bolger could certainly be re-styled, using similar heights and adding length would improve her looks considerably. As drawn you are pushing a heavily loaded canoe through the water, the beam is only for stabilization when heeled. Thus the efficiency and longer would just get better, but it must be light.

All the best, Tad

[Greenseas2]

Just got to yahoo and type in Harold C. Hanson designs.

[FAST FRED]

"what I'm looking for is a good double endeed design that would be affordable to those who want to cruise under power."

The double ended design is really fine for the life boat fellows that may need to row to a rescue.

The design has a lower hull speed than the normal design , so will require more fuel or a slower voyage for the "poor common man" you envision desperate to cruise.

Why handycap these old folks?, just to appear "seaworthy" ?,
seems as "bad" as having a 150 ft sales tool for the more sucessfull boaters.

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Fred, go to yachtworld.com and type in "Monteryery Clipper 32. There's one for sale in Alameda, California for $40k and could probably be bought for less. This is the type of boat that I have been advocating due to it's economical long range. It's no slopoke either. Ideal for us crispy critters (seniors).This boat is a little different in that it is powered by an industrial Lister diesel that is air cooled. I've seen these used in other work type boats with no problems. The boat also definitely has character. Some of these types are being built in low numbers on the west coast.

[SAQuestor]

Fred, go to yachtworld.com and type in "Monteryery Clipper 32

Easier, here's the link; 32' Monterey Clipper (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1498793&slim=quick&)

[fcfc]

Do I read well ?

Year : 2002 : about 4 years old.

Engine Hours : 35

The owner may have done tremendous savings on the fuel. That's why he sells his boat so low :P

[Greenseas2]

The monterey clipper is an example of the double ended trolers that basically have an efficient sailboat type hull that doesn't require a lot of power to push it. The type is economical and affordable. You can put any size engine in it that you wish, but fuel consumption goes up with speed. Hull speed of S/L 1:1 or a little higher is all that is needed. While she won't plane, she will go relatively long distances at a comfortable pace with moderate fuel usage and has room to enhance the living area for comfortable cruising. Nice part about the double enders is control while shooting inlets, that why the USCG has them for rescue purposes in places like Washington and Oregon. I've made many transits of Manasquan inlet in nasty seas with flat back boats and had to work hard to keep from broaching. Also went through with double enders with no problems. Manasquan is one of the worst inlets on the US east coast.

[Tad]

Nice part about the double enders is control while shooting inlets,

Yes, the "Noah" effect, a well known principal of naval architecture :D


Tad

[Vega]

Do I read well ?

Year : 2002 : about 4 years old.

Engine Hours : 35

The owner may have done tremendous savings on the fuel. That's why he sells his boat so low :P

Nah, you didn't read the full story:The original fiberglass hull was constructed in 1983 .The owner then spent the next 15 years finishing the build and completed the vessel in 2002. " :p It is a fiberglass hull with 23 years.:rolleyes:

I would like to discuss the fiberglass qualities in what regards aging. I have started a thread, but it looks that I am the only one interested.:(
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11455

[Greenseas2]

I read the full description of the Monterey and the time it took to finish it> people are squirrely when it comes to selling boats. We just had a stock broker buy a brand new boat and sold it 9 months later for half of what he paid for it. My boat is 25 years old and the fiberglass is in good shape as are some of the first ones made back in the 50's. I'll check your thread out.

[fcfc]

It would be interesting to understand why someone spends 15 years building a boat, then sails it as little as 35 hours within 4 years, then sells it. I fear the main point is the boat does not hold expectations put in it.
I fear it may reach the fuel efficiency expected, but the tradeoffs done to reach this efficiency render the boat unusable, up to the point to sell it at loss.

[SAQuestor]

It would be interesting to understand why someone spends 15 years building a boat, then sails it as little as 35 hours within 4 years, then sells it. I fear the main point is the boat does not hold expectations put in it.
I fear it may reach the fuel efficiency expected, but the tradeoffs done to reach this efficiency render the boat unusable, up to the point to sell it at loss.

It is my understanding that the lure of the sea pales once the boat is completed.

Often, it seems, the act of building something is the primary motivator, not the actual messing about in a boat.

One only has to peruse the all too numerous "projects" that await someone to take over and complete for a good sense of how life intrudes and wrecks the best laid plans.

My point? I can easily see a craftsman plodding along until the project is finished and then losing interest in 35 hours of running.

[Vega]

Yes you have a point, but 35 hours in a cruising displacement boat is something like 200 miles...that's no cruising, that's a small journey. I mean a guy that builds a cruising boat, it is because he wants to cruise...at least once?:confused:

[SAQuestor]

Yes you have a point, but 35 hours in a cruising displacement boat is something like 200 miles...that's no cruising, that's a small journey. I mean a guy that builds a cruising boat, it is because he wants to cruise...at least once?:confused:

Maybe Mama gets sea sick easily? Maybe he or she got cancer and is fighting for life. Literally there are hundreds of reasons that might explain why the boat only has 35 hours on the clock. Who are we to doubt?

[SAQuestor]

How's this one? A 34' Bill Garden Troller (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1532987&slim=quick&) or Trawler?

Shame there are no details on the link. Nice looking IMO anyway.

[Vega]

. Who are we to doubt?:p :p Yes, what I mean is that it is a strange situation, so caution is the word. A guy interested in that boat should also be interested in the real story that led to an unused boat.
And if it was I, I will have a boat test in that boat in some difficult sea conditions.
You know a fishing motor boat of that size has a lot bigger motor. I don't know if that engine has enough power to handle not so good weather conditions and that is supposed to be a cruising boat. It should be seaworthy.

But I agree that it is a nice hull and that the boat is not expensive.

[Vega]

How's this one? A 34' .

That is a fine looking boat, really nice:cool:

[FAST FRED]

If anyone has had the "pleasure" of hearing a Lister air cooled thumper , they easily understand why the boat is for sale with so few hours.

Anyone with a bit of competance , and a huge amount of stick to it , can build a boat.

It takes VAST experience to be able to build the air box to adaquatly cool a Lister ,
and work as a sound trap too.
Not a job for the novice , as the 2 lb per Sq ft lead Soundown matereial is really pricy ,
and multiple attempts will be required.

If a boat is willing to accept the 1.1 speed ration a doubble ender will be OK , but the ability to sprint an extra K or 2 faster (to make a bridge or lock) will be absent.

Additionally going down wind offshore the speeds may have to be reduced as the low speed stern usually adds energy to the waves and causes them to break earlier.

Does save fuel tho to operate at .9


FAST FRED

[fcfc]

And if it was I, I will have a boat test in that boat in some difficult sea conditions.
You know a fishing motor boat of that size has a lot bigger motor. I don't know if that engine has enough power to handle not so good weather conditions and that is supposed to be a cruising boat. It should be seaworthy.

But I agree that it is a nice hull and that the boat is not expensive.

The plea for this kind of boats is rolling. I do not think to the point to be a hazard, but certainly to the point to make the boat unliveable.

All small low speed round chine powerboats have this problem. Bigger ones also , but they use paravane or active hydraulic stabilizers (20 000$). Small boats (read low cost) are left with steady sail or bilge keel. But that have a limited action. Speed is too low to gain any dynamic stability.

Just go for a ride in beam or quartering sea in such boats. 3 ft waves are enough to quickly understand what I mean.

This probably the main reason no a volume boat manufacter builds such boats.
Fishing boats are another story. Fishermen get paid when to go to sea. Pleasure boaters have to pay to go to sea. The level of acceptance of discomfort is not the same.

[Greenseas2]

Fred, the power plant can be changed out fr the same hp Tanmar or other make engine, not a big deal. As far as rolling goes, the trollers are fairly deep footed and don't roll any more than any other hull design. We'll know more about this when I go out to Ca to research these boats more this month and ttalk with the people who use them. Also if you refer to Beebe's book on passsage making, alll of the passagemakers in the book are equipped with paravanes. I will make arrangements to take out the listed boat Fred and let you know how she is as seaworthiness goes. There are 4 other ones to take measurements from and get comments from owners.

[Schoonertack]

Tad and others, I love this thread! have tried to get it going on a number of boat forums. I wasn't going to post, but I can't resist. I have fished around where you live Tad, I have done some fishing on the Gulf coast, and wondered at the big sportfishing boats running out at speed running home at speed, very often with no flags. The thought has crossed my mind from time to time that it is passing stange to burn a thousand pounds of fuel and return fishless, How many dinosaurs to the barrel by the way? How many years to turn dino fat into high grade light crude? What is sport fishing, anyway? Flyfishing,handlining,hand trolling, site casting? Whatever, fishing is what I do most of the time when I am on a boat. I was at Fish Expo in Seattle, really enjoyed the Charterboat sessions, Lots of Six Pack guys there, at that time nobody seemed interested in fuel efficiency, two times 300 hp diesels was the norm for the bigger boats I couldn't see how they could make it I still don't. I think alot of the boats are sixties designs, I do believe that there is far more than 30 years of fuel in the ground, I don't believe for one minute that I will ever buy hightest for 35 cents a gallon again. I hope this forum has legs I think we are looking at the future of boating. All the best Guys. Schooner

[Greenseas2]

There are too many advocates of the big fuel burners.....mostly boat builder who can cram all of the amenties of a big condo in to something that floats and makes big enhancements to Exxon-mobile's bottom line. Here in southeast Florida we're starting to see the Monterey influence in economically operated charter fishing boats in the 30 to 40 foot ranges. Not fast, but do bring home the fish with some profit for the boat. Most are equipped with small head and galley with side seats for fishermen. They do seem to be doing OK.

[kjell]

Banjers (37' motorsailers) have a canoe stern and deep vee hull with full length keel, so lots of wetted surface. Full load displacement around 13 tonnes.
My boat's engine is a Perkins M 4-236 delivering a maximum of 71 HP DIN (86 HP SAE) at 2500 rpm. Continuous is 61 DIN (74 SAE) at 2250 rpm.
Propeller is a 28" x 18" three bladed one, SAR 55%, slip around 22%. Reduction gear ratio, 3:1.

At 1.06 Fn Banjers do 6.0 knots (Tested. Clean hull, calm seas, full load) at 1300 rpm of the mentioned engine, the prop absorbing something like 14 HP of the 39 HP (DIN) available from engine at that rpm (These last two data estimated, as power-rpm curves are not available).

By the way: Somebody has those curves for this engine? I'd appreciate very much if he/she makes them available to me).

Fuel consumption at this Fn is 1.08 Lts/mile (6.5 lt/h) or 0.29 gall/mile (1.72 gall/h). With a 900 lts tank, allowing for a non-usable 10%, range goes to 748 miles, if I worked out numbers correctly. At hull speed (around 7.5 kn) mileage comes down to 500 and consumption rises to around 12 lt/h

Hi Guillermo.
I have the power curve for the Perkins 4.236M how do you like me to send a copy to you?

[Guillermo]

..I have the power curve for the Perkins 4.236M how do you like me to send a copy to you?
Thanks a lot Kjell. I've got it already from the kindness of Tad Roberts, so problem has been solved already. But if your curves include the specific consumption one -because this one is not in Tad's- then I'll be most grateful if you send it to me by e-mail.
Thanks again for your kind offer.
All the best.

[Guillermo]

Kjell,
I've just received the fax with the Perkins 4236M curves. Thanks a lot again!
You're a great and most collaborative guy!

[Tad]

As far as rolling goes, the trollers are fairly deep footed and don't roll any more than any other hull design.

Oh yes they do.

Again, (see above posts) a troller hull (the real thing) is designed to carry a load. That load is a hold full of ice and dead fish. The VCG of this load is quite high, due to freeboard, approx at the waterline or above. Loaded trollers are very comfortable in a sea, they roll a looonngg way over, but slowly. So working and living aboard for long periods is bearable. People convert trollers to pleasure boats and add ballast, usually in the form of lead in the bottom of the hold. They then complain that the boat has a snappy and uncomfortable roll.

On this coast is is usual for trollers to fit passive stabilizers called "Batwings". This is a flat steel plate extending horizontally either side of the keel amidships. The plate carries across the full beam of the boat and is braced at it's outboard end with a vertical steel plate strut, which is bolted to the hull through the topsides. Crude but effective. These are fit in addition to the paravane stabilizers which hang from the trolling poles. Pictures below.



6586

6587

[Guillermo]

...Again, (see above posts) a troller hull (the real thing) is designed to carry a load. That load is a hold full of ice and dead fish. The VCG of this load is quite high, due to freeboard, approx at the waterline or above. Loaded trollers are very comfortable in a sea, they roll a looonngg way over, but slowly. So working and living aboard for long periods is bearable. People convert trollers to pleasure boats and add ballast, usually in the form of lead in the bottom of the hold. They then complain that the boat has a snappy and uncomfortable roll.
I totally agree. That's why GRP for displacement fishing boats has had no success over here, except for mussel farming uses. GRP boats are lighter than wood or steel, so, for the same hull forms (And fishermen do like those forms) they need to add ballast, which makes movements at sea more uncorfortable, so they add bilge keels, or the like, etc. For mussel farming they use 18 m (typically) beamy boats, bringing mussel cargo on deck (a lot of tons!), inside the protected waters of the Galician Rías. So, stability demands are quite different and GRP has had its place for this use, competing with wood and steel. The rest of displacement boats is either wood or steel (wood the small ones and steel the big ones)

(See a typical wooden mussel boat and its structure in photos below. Also an small wooden gill-netter)

On this coast is is usual for trollers to fit passive stabilizers called "Batwings". This is a flat steel plate extending horizontally either side of the keel amidships. The plate carries across the full beam of the boat and is braced at it's outboard end with a vertical steel plate strut, which is bolted to the hull through the topsides. Crude but effective. These are fit in addition to the paravane stabilizers which hang from the trolling poles. Pictures below.
Do they carry those "Batwings" at all times? Don't they interfere with the fishing operations? (tangling nets or ropes, etc). In Galicia they go for bilge keels, as said before. I would appreciate more info and photos on that system, if you are so kind.
Cheers.

[Tad]

Guillermo,

Sorry I don't have a good picture of Batwings, but I'll keep looking. They are fixed in place and totally passive, thus there forever. Lots of added drag, but fishermen being fishermen, they claim no speed reduction!! Viewed from ahead all you see are the edges of the steel plate, no stiffeners. Depending on boat size the plate might be 3/8" or 1/2" thick (10-12mm). In plan view they often taper from the keel out to the tip, so that lines will brush off. But everything gets tangled in them if you let it.

The red boat above is nice looking. Years ago we had a big sailing yacht built at the Mefasa Shipyard in Aviles, Asturias. Alejandra was launched in 1993. There was a fleet of beautiful steel fishing boats working out of that harbour, about 25m long? Maybe longliners or offshore gillnetters? Very elaborate shapes for steel.

Tad

[Guillermo]

The 'Alejandra' you mention was the one owned by Mario Conde? I've seen that one in Bayona harbour and I've found her a magnificent sailing yacht.
By the way, several images at your web site's Portfolio are not working properly and is quite annoying. You should take care of that.

[Greenseas2]

All of the pictured boats are great. Conversion to a long range cruising vessel would be quite easy with all of them. I would opt for partial ballast and a larger fuel load. These types of boats are also very stable when going to the fishing griounds light ship except for ice. The CG is low so any rolling will be gentle. As for additional stability, bilge plates would probably be preferable over para vanes.

[FAST FRED]

"I would opt for partial ballast and a larger fuel load."

This can get quite dangerous as the vessel will loose stability as the fuel is burned off , unless its ONE damn BIG boat!

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Fred, what's the difference betwen a fuel load and the ice melting on a troller. If there's that much concern, intenal sea water ballast tank(s) can be fitted. We use seawater ballast on ships that I've run to maintain an acceptable CG, but usually only top them off for storm conditions. Granted, a troller may ride a little higher, but most are low profile boats to begin with. An extra 300 gallons (2,100 pounds) will only put the average troller down about an inch on the water line. Little if any change in metacenter.

[FAST FRED]

"what's the difference betwen a fuel load and the ice melting on a troller."

Ordinarily the fuel is quite low in the hull , and the ice is hopefully replaced with dead fish to pay for the diesel.

300 galons is only 600 miles , perhaps 1200 on a really fine costly well designed super efficent boat , about 1/2 of any oceans worth of fuel.

FAST FRED

[Guillermo]

...An extra 300 gallons (2,100 pounds) will only put the average troller down about an inch on the water line. Little if any change in metacenter.
That cannot be generalized. One ton for a 40 footer (If that's what we are talking about), down in the bilges, may have a significant influence in stability. If the boat has a critical GZ curve, the consumption of that one ton may lead to a dangerous situation. I've seen this happening in many fishing boats, particularly for the 10% fuel-20%catch load condition.

[wave1235]

My boat is smaller than what is being discussed, but I believe my experiences are applicible. I bought a Skipper 20, shoal keel sailboat and sold the mast at the same time. I bought a new 9.9hp Yamaha four stroke outboard extra long shaft high thrust at that time also. Installation of the motor in the well required opening the hole in the hull up larger to allow the motor to turn lock to lock as well as cutting the deck over the motor out for greater access. I then built a motor cover, small cabin, stout handrails, front hatch, and anchor pulpit from marine aluminum. The plate is all 3/16" 5052 and the railing is 6100 series 2" schedual 40 pipe. I kept the windows small and tough. I replaced the original sailboat cabin windows with 1/2" lexan as well as used the same in the aluminum hatch. I took the deck off the boat, did a lot of epoxy glass work to the interior, and refastened the deck with closely spaced stainless bolts and nylok nuts. Everything mounted is through bolted with stainless and nykoks with oversized aluminum backing plates. I used over 11 gallons of System Three epoxy (some West system) and many many yards of 12 & 6 ounce glass cloth. Many layers of glass/epoxy were added to cover an additional 3/16 " thick from the keel bottom to the water line. All additions, except the motor, added less than 200 pounds to the weight of the boat. The motor weighs 120 lbs. The water line raised 1 1/2". I have an aluminum arm with which I raise the motor out of the water when at the dock. The two sides of the motor well cover each have half a slot which come together (with a rubber cushions) on the raised motor shaft and are locked to prevent motor theft. I built a bench over the footwell area to limit the volume of water that can board which needs to run out and greatly increased the scupper sizes. The rounded bench top lifts to access two water tight compartments. One is for 17 gallons of fuel and the other is for fenders and dock lines when at sea. The high thrust outboard overpowers the boat. I can run right at seven mph which is above s/l ratio of 1.34 though the stern squats pretty good. Wide open throttle with that engine is one gph. At 5mph I get 15 to 20 mpg depending on sea state. Slack bilges means she rolls, but slowly for her size and I enjoy the great ride. She turns ahull when drifting and travels very slowly with as much boat as is in the water and her low windage profile. I can fish straight down even in a good breeze. Rolls a bit when ahull but stiffens right up as the keel gets some moment arm and is not snappy like my inboard/outboard boat. I made a toilet which uses trash bags and the cabin will sleep four ( bow double and two quarter berths. Being a double ender she has no problem coming over the bar in rough seas. I've been in eight foot breaking choppy seas and have yet to take anything but blown spray aboard. I have steering and controls inside and outside. Head room for inside steering is 6'-4". I'm 6'-2" and have never hit my head. With the door closed she will roll over and come right back up ( don't want to test that) and will not retain any water on baord for more than a few seconds. The same boat would be easy to do in a larger size but this is all I will want or need. Her name is "Bug".

[wave1235]

This picture is before glassing in the bench. Will get boat pictures with the bench tomorrow as I'm taking Friday off to go fishing.

[oforberg]

Bigger isn't always better and faster isn't always more fun....I like your thinking and your boat.

I did not have any luck with pictures last time but will try again to post what I am patterning my build after.

Omar

[wave1235]

Nice boat. Lots of economy and maximum enjoyment.

[Greenseas2]

Just spent two weeks in California running a 32 foot monterey troller and a 31 footer as well as taking lines from several that were on blocks. We had a couple of nasty days west of the Golden Gate with at least 5 foot seas and both trollers handled them well abeam, and from both both both ends. We didn't really experience any difficulties in maneuvering or excessive rolling. While the trollers are slightly deep in the hull, they don't appear to be deep enough so that waves "catch the bottom, but rather they either ride the surface opf plow through. In the 30 plus lengths, they would make ideal sea kindly private vessels. The only noticeable difference between production trawlers and salmon trollers is that there is about 2 feet less internal space for accommodations. Great little boats.

[Busman1965]

As the owner of a 30' x 10', 1928 Salmon troller, built is Seattle, which now resides in Florida, I feel I can add alittle to this discussion. I have logged about 15,000 ocean miles in Florida and the Bahamas in my troller, in all kinds of conditions. Trollers are wonderful sea boats, but take a knowing hand to operate. They are serious rollers in beam seas, and require some stabilization. I installed Paravanes, after my first trip, as I was exhausted from 12 hrs of 40deg rolls!! The 'vanes solved the rolling, and only cost about 1/2-1 of a knot. I have run in seas up to 16ft, and she handles them fine, as long as they are on the bow, but I would never think of trying to run down sea in those conditons. The economy is wonderful, with a perkins 50hp diesel. I burn 3/4 gal hr at 6knts. They key thing about the troller hull, is not to push it more than 1.2 x hull speed, as the fuel consumption goes up tremendously, also, they tend to squat aft, and the sea-keeping ability suffers. I do not recommend putting tons of ballast in these type hulls, as it makes the roll very quick, put in enough to make her self righting, in a knock down, but not much more, let the stabilizers do the work, instead. Remember, these boat always had huge trolling poles out, with large fishing weights on the wires (kind of a simple stabilizer). I have really loaded my troller down, with cargo, on a number of occasions, and she handles it fine, as long as it is kept well aft. This type of hull runs well with the aft deck, almost awash, as long as the bow is kept light and bouyant. Fuel for ballast is not really a good idea, as these boats should have saddle tanks, in the engine room, to make the most use of space, which means they are not very deep in the hull.
Also, the troller hull is no great joy to steer in rough seas, they need constant attention, so fit a really good autopilot. I rarely touch the helm, after leaving a harbor. The only real drawback to this type of hull, is they are very hard to run down sea in any kind of bad conditions. I thought the rudder on my troller was much too large, until I had to come in a nasty inlet in 10-12ft seas.....it took all the rudder I had to keep from broaching to. I just felt I should throw my 2 cents in, as someone who has logged alot of miles in this style hull.

[Guillermo]

Nice boat, Busman, congratulations!
Cheers.

[Pericles]

George Buehler's Diesel Ducks were mentioned earlier in this thread and Tad seemed not to be impressed, which puzzled me as there are a significant number of satisfied owners. I have followed Tad's opinion, both here and at his site and have agreed with all he has posted, so I shall refrain from further comment. http://dieselducks.com/Concept.html

On Malcolm Tennant's site, a very strong case is made for his displacement catamaran designs, on the basis of fuel efficiency and spacious accommodation. His 10 to 15 metre designs certainly give pause for thought. http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/boats.php?boat=151

Jacques Mertens is now selling his latest offering. http://www.boatplans-online.com/studyplans/LB26_study.htm

I am very impressed! Have bought a set of plans and am waiting for Mr Mailman to deliver ASAP. His other design that also warranted my attention is here. http://www.boatplans-online.com/studyplans/VG26_study.htm

I might have been tempted by the VG26, if sticks and sheets still held the appeal they had for me in the eighties. Alas, cooking and sleeping on the tilt no longer has the magic it once held.

So, for what it's worth, if I can't have the boat I want, I'll enjoy the boat I can have. My plans for a forty footer will have to remain just plans.:(

There are two options for the LB26 and I shall go for marine ply and epoxy, thus reserving my right to post progress on WoodenBoat Forum.

Pericles

[Guillermo]

Perry,
I'm very well impressed by the VG 26, too.
Don't worry about abandonig the 40 footer idea for the time being. The VG 26 will cost much less than half and probably you'll enjoy it more than the double!
Keep us posted on the building.
Cheers.

[fcfc]

I might have been tempted by the VG26, if sticks and sheets still held the appeal they had for me in the eighties. Alas, cooking and sleeping on the tilt no longer has the magic it once held.

So, for what it's worth, if I can't have the boat I want, I'll enjoy the boat I can have. My plans for a forty footer will have to remain just plans.:(


Pericles

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=94236#post94236

[Willallison]

Well, original or not ( on the basis of fcfc's post...:confused: ) that's a very professionally put together web page for the vg26. If the plans are 1/2 as good you should be in for a treat.

[Pericles]

Whilst fcfc has a point about the earlier boats, that they might have been an inspiration to Jacques, I believe the crucial difference is that the VG26 is stitch and glue rather than frame and ply sheathing (if that is how those boats were constructed?). This means building the VG26 should be easier and the resulting vessel will be of robust monocoque construction. That said, I must confirm that it is the LB26 that I shall build. Perhaps the plans will arrive today!! C'mon Postie.:cool:

Jacques does not make choosing a boat to build easy. His CX25 is highly desirable.

http://www.boatplans-online.com/studyplans/CX25_study.htm

Then there is the long cabin version of the DE25.

http://www.boatplans-online.com/studyplans/DE25Cabin_study.htm

Hell's teeth! I want them all!!!

Guillermo,

Thanks for your words of encouragement.

Best regards,


Pericles

[Willallison]

Oh - yes - sorry I was actually looking at the LB26... a very attractive little boat - and as I said before, on a very well presented web page

[Gilbert]

I will confess that I have not read every post on this thread. But I want to comment on the fact that folks are refering to trollers as a type of boat. Trolling is a type of fishing. You can use any boat you like to troll. Therefor there is no such thing as a trolliing style cruising boat. The same thing applies to trawlers of course. But I guess you can't fight mislabeled media nomenclature.
Skippers who intend to troll in bad weather do not want a boat that is stiff or has a high level of stability. They want a very gentle roll. Otherwise the fishing gear will likely suffer a lot of damage. One of the tricks they would use to slow the roll is to make a cup at the top of the mast rather like a typical stand for a globe and put a 50 pound trolling weight in it. If the boat rolled far enough the round trolling weight would fall out and the righting moment would improve. They use paravanes under some conditions and they usually have a small steadying sail to use at times.
You can have a trolling boat that is converted to cruising such as bussman has commented about in a recent post.

[Pierre R]

I am enjoying this thread very much. I like most of the boats that have been presented here. I do have a converted round bottom boat. shown here http://groups.msn.com/TrawlerMV/piouspuffin.msnw

Pious Puffin is a modifed Permacraft 26. LOA 26', LWL 23',Beam 9'2", Draft 2'10" Air Draft with mast 15'5", Displacement 8500lbs 10,000lb in cruise condition/ full tanks. Headroom varies between 6' 2" and 6'9". Pilot house is e-glass/epoxy over eastern white cedar. Pious Puffin is equiped with 105 square inch Paravane stabilizers on 9' poles. The engine is a Sabb H2 with 19" controllable pitch propeller. Close maneuvering is with a 4hp Lemar bow thruster. Water is 70 gallons and diesel is 60 gallons, holding is 27gal. Cruise is 6 knots @ 1300 rpm on 0.6 gph.

Electrical is 4-6V golf cart, 1-12V start battery, 150 amp alternator, smart regulator/welder, 2000w inverter, AC, refrigeration.

Since these pictures were taken I have added tons of storage spaces. I am quite comfortable on this boat for extended periods of time. I like it well enough I will probably keep it.

[chandler]

how about a definative definition between trawler and troller.
Experienced power cruisers are happy with hull speed. No matter what the hull shape only billionaires can afford to plane for thousands of miles.

[FAST FRED]

" No matter what the hull shape only billionaires can afford to plane for thousands of miles."


Perhaps , but there are semi-plaining designs , with special features that CAN run at SL 2,3 even 4!!! with modest fuel consumption.

The Box Keel with reverse deadrise as created by Atkin seems to do this well.

There are half dozen threads here already on these unique boats.

A small day boat claims 38nmpg at SL 2, not expensive cruising even when scaled up 6 times.

FF

[SAQuestor]

A small day boat claims 38nmpg at SL 2, not expensive cruising even when scaled up 6 times.

Rescue Minor? Or another design? Give us a better clue or a link please.

Leo

[FAST FRED]

Yes RESCUE MINOR the Rob White built version claims that performance.

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16746&page=8

FF

[SAQuestor]

Yes RESCUE MINOR the Rob White built version claims that performance.

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16746&page=8

FF

Fred,

I'm not 100% convinced that hull form alone is responsible for this reported performance.

As I do more and more research into both planing and semi-planing boat designs I am beginning to reach to conclusion that total weight of the boat, fuel, people and gear is the most important factor in achieving high miles per gallon numbers. And the most important number of all is the bottom loading factor - i.e., how much weight does each square foot of bottom have to support when the boat is at cruising speed.

Though it appears that there is not a 100% direct correlation between total displacement and economy, this is also seems to be true for full displacement hull forms.

Speed is also an obvious component of economical operation of any boat. Generally the slower one goes the more economy one achieves.

This is where the hull form comes into play - some hull forms seem to be inherently more economical than other forms. It also appears that some of these hull forms violate "common tribal knowledge" and are dismissed by otherwise rational, reasonable and very knowledgeable and experienced folks as aberrations.

Sadly, it doesn't appear that we have much solid evidence to judge performance of these 'aberrant' hull forms on. Lots of anecdotal and empirical evidence, but data seems to be in short supply.

I admire the design work of father and son Atkin (http://www.atkinboatplans.com/). Robb White's untimely demise deprived the world of not only his wit, but a large knowledge base from his years of boat building experience.

I can only wish that there was more consensus agreement that the larger Seabright hull forms (http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Cruisers/Naiad.html) that Atkin's designed would in fact be as fuel efficient as the writings on the web site (http://www.atkinboatplans.com/) and in the articles originally published in MotorBoating magazine and then in their Ideal series of books, especially volume #46, seem to suggest. This is especially true as I get close to the drop dead date when I must start construction of my "Retirement Cruiser" so that it'll be ready to go when I am.

Best,

Leo

[FAST FRED]

"Generally the slower one goes the more economy one achieves."

The slower one goes the less HP is required to move,

BUT , many "modern high speed" diesels will burn considerably MORE fuel to generate HP much below the torque peak.

So just slowing down , may not give the range and endurance you are expecting.

FF

[CaptScot]

How about a Troller Yacht - Diesel Duck 38? They are very economical to run and sail with many used for bluewater cruising world wide. All are amateur built and the least costliest way to get out there for the average guy.

I need to part with a complete set of professional plans 17 sheets (24" x 36") for a low maintenance fiberglass/wood/epoxy Diesel duck 38 by reknown yacht designer George Buehler. Included on rolls are lofted to full-size most hull station molds.

As much as I planned and looked forward to beginning this interesting, fun as easily do-able project for a long time, at present building a Diesel Duck of my own is not in the cards. Therefore, I am offering for sale for some lucky person these plans for a bargin price and fraction of the original price of $500, plus postage or make offer. The DD38 plans originally sell for $2,295, see links to Buehler website below.

Also included are two books: Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilder, Boatbuilding by Chapelle. The Diesel Duck is George Buehler's most popular design with dozens of these sturdy homebuilt ocean going boats sailing the world; see links. Buehler's practical design permits an amateur to build a sturdy boat from scratch with ordinary materials, ordinary tools, custom built to your needs and taste, all for a fraction of the price of a new boat. They are also economical to run.

There is a member group of several Diesel Duck homebuilders sharing info and photos at Yahoogroup's BackyardBoatbuilders2". Buehler's book "The Troller Yacht" would also be a good book to have for building this boat which describes these type of trawler yachts.

Easy to build, lots of room for liveaboard cruising, and furnished to what ever your imagination can dream up. The oceans of the world will be your oyster, not just reserved for the mega-buck yachts. My email scottcatherine@yahoo.com

http://dieselducks.com/Jerrys%2038Duck-2.html

http://dieselducks.com/Duck38study.html

http://dieselducks.com/stock%20plans.html

[norwester]

I have been trying to locate a source for troller designs but have not had much luck. The Pacific Northwest at one time had a lot of trollers plying offshore waters for salmon. Everything I've read about them reflect an economical and safe vessel. I know Edwin Monk designed some but his plans are no longer available according to Mr Monk Jr in Bainbridge WA. Haven;t found anything yet at the Mystic Seaport or Smithsonian web sites. Does anyone have any suggestions. With todays fuel prices these boats make sense. I've looked at George Buhlers designs and they are very nice but I was hoping I could find a source for the plans from a historical source. I plan on building out of wood so the older plans would be fine I'm sure.

[cthippo]

Welcome aboard, norwester

This thread is a few years out of date so I don't know how many replies you'll get, but did you look at the link in the post immediately above?

[Gilbert]

norwester,
The Whatcom County museum has a collection of designs by H. C. Hanson. He drew plans for a lot of fishing boats, so there must be a few trolling boats in there somewhere.
You should also just take a look around in the northwest marinas. You might find a jewel for sale at a reasonable price. If you find one you like, the owner just might have drawings or know who designed it. There is a possibility to take the lines off also if plans are not available.
What size boat are you looking for?

[Easy Rider]

I think we kinda sorta had this discussion before and concluded that a Grand Banks 36 took 50 hp to make 7 knots and a Willard 40 took 23. I figured the GB would take about 75 hp so even though the real life difference was less than I thought a bit over 2 times as much is not fly stuff. When I bought my last boat I put too much emphasis on fuel burn and now am wishing I had a boat that burned twice as much. Here are some pics relative to the original poster's thoughts. The first two boats are very tired examples of the trollers he had in mind (I think). 1. The Susan B quite likely 100 yrs old right here in Thorne Bay and still afloat. 2. The Clarem, as I found her this fall at Edna Bay on the outer coast of Prince of Wales Island. I'll guess she was built in the 40s or possibly the early 50s. See how full she it in the stern compared to Susan. 3. The Kelly B is a "troller yacht" built in Puget Sound called the Vashon Pocket Cruiser. I see these little 23' boats now and then. This one was at Nanaimo BC.
4. My own Willard 30 seems to be a troller yacht as well. I thing FG replicas of the 27' Monterey fishing boat have been made. No pics.
I do agree w TAD in that people don't want really slow full displacement boats. I'm absolutely Ga Ga over his Yellow Cedar but I'll bet it wasn't very popular. And it is considerably more efficient than the Willard.

[Tad]

I have been trying to locate a source for troller designs but have not had much luck. The Pacific Northwest at one time had a lot of trollers plying offshore waters for salmon. Everything I've read about them reflect an economical and safe vessel. I know Edwin Monk designed some but his plans are no longer available according to Mr Monk Jr in Bainbridge WA. Haven;t found anything yet at the Mystic Seaport or Smithsonian web sites. Does anyone have any suggestions. With todays fuel prices these boats make sense. I've looked at George Buhlers designs and they are very nice but I was hoping I could find a source for the plans from a historical source. I plan on building out of wood so the older plans would be fine I'm sure.

Asking for "troller designs" is a bit like asking for four door sedan designs......there are hundreds of sizes and types from various eras, they range in size from 13' hand trollers of the 1930's to the monster 50-60' boats of the 1970's........

William Garden's designs are at Mystic, see the list here http://library.mysticseaport.org/manuscripts/coll/spcoll096/spcoll096.html

51386

[Tad]

A nice 36' double-ended troller by Robert Allan

51387

[Tad]

The vast majority of trollers (and all West Coast fishboats in fact) are not built from plans. Usually they were built in small shops from either a carved half-model or from a set of construction molds (they were all built carvel wood plank on bent frames) which would be altered to suit current requirements. Often boats were built over the winter by the fishermen, who then fished the boat for a season, sold her, and built another the next winter.......

This is a 1934 troller, built in Prince Rupert by Matsamoto, which Tony Grove recorded in Shearwater last year and I made a lines drawing for....

51388

[Tad]

This boat, Pacific, was also built by a fisherman with no plans, she's mid 1960's construction and about 48'

51389

[Tad]

A 40' troller drawn by Frank Fredette of Victoria in 1961. Note that she is relatively small for her length and has a six-cylinder gas engine for power (small diesels where still quite rare and auto conversions where cheap). Beam is narrow by today's standards, only 10'3", and depth is only 5'1" in the hold. A few years later 40' boats were 12' wide and 6-7' deep.

51410

[Tad]

A big heavy 48' troller by Bill Garden, designed in the late 50's. Her beam is about 14', fuel capacity 2000 usg, ballast about 10,000 pounds (concrete inside), and weight without ice or fish of about 80,000 pounds.

51411

[Easy Rider]

Wonderful stuff TAD. I especially liked the William Garden page. Troller cruisers. Should've been. I hate the expression "trawler" relative to yachts. As I recall they were called "Heavy Cruisers" in the 50s. I'm looking at a big old fish boat conversion now and am a bit scared of the wood ship construction. This is not a plywood like boat but one w a huge built up keel and stem. I'm also looking at a Nordic 32 and I'm sure you'd say go w the Nordy but with my eye on the big old serious fish boat I may better be better able to see what the Nordy really is. The Matsomoto troller is much like Clarem in my pics. Also the wood fish boat I'm looking at is very much like the 40' troller by Frank Fredette.

Easy Rider

[phishown]

Here is a 1984 Fiberglass Monterey Clipper built by Joe Fellipi of Moss Landing CA. Boat is undergoing paint. Located in Pensacola, FL

[Greenseas2]

On a recent rip from Monterey to san Diego along the coasst highway, I sa a few of the 27 to 28 foot older Monterey Clippers for sale. You may want to search this area as they seem to be readily available and would probably be priced reasonably.

[Easy Rider]

I think clipper bows are kinda stupid. They just look cool and are a good example of form dosn't follow function unless function has to do w selling the boat ..and it usually does but it's at the cost of having a short boat in the water and that is usually not good.
And w bulbus bows I always wonder why they don't just make the upper bow as long as the "bulb"?? Most bulbus bow boats/ships look like a clipper bow w a bulb stuck on. Perhaps there's something about the bulbus bow that makes it WLL wise butter than just making the whole bow as long as the bulb???

Easy

[FAST FRED]

IF you are willing to operate at a single pre-detirmined speed most of the time a bulbus bow can save fuel.

Problem is if you speed up or slow down the efficiency drops and the fuel burn goes up.

The big container ships are handeling the slowdown in world trade by "slow steaming" , to require more ships to be used.

The cost of modifying the bulb runs over $1,000,000 so many are accepting the poor fuel results , in the hope the trade will resume ,,someday.

There ARE fuel savings from going slower , as in every boat , the savings are just nor optimum.When the gas bill is in Tons per hour , everything counts!

[WickedGood]

Mystic Seaport does not have Tralwers. It is a historic preservation of the boatbuilding era of NewEngland from the days of Yore. ie: Dories, Whitehalls, Peapods, Barks and Schoonners

They do have a fine Whaling vessel Charles W. Morgan the last surviving wooden whaling ship from the great days of sail. You can still smell the Blood & Blubber.

You simply must visit.


Another fine place is the Peobody Museum in Salem, be sure to Visit the Salem Maritime National Park while there.

And you should drop into Bath Maritime Musem. Plenty of great boats and you can go for a ride on an old Grand Banks Schooner, but it has been retrofitted with Diesil and smells like it.

For a real authentic experiace go to Gloucester and join the crew of the Schooner Adventure. its 127 feet long and Sail powered. Nothing like comming abourd on a cold winters morning for some bacon & eggs and a hot cup of coffeee cooked on the wood stove in the galley. It has the real smell that a schooner should have. You will like the feel and sounds of the creaking of the wood as she rocks in the waves. I cleaned her hull years ago and took off about a foot thick of Barnacales & Mussles and she did 7 kts when I finished. WOW!


A Morden Trawler such as a Grand Banks, A Kadey-Krogen or even a Mainship would be well suited for Trolling for fish


I would eliminate the back cabin that a lot of them have and install refrigerated fish boxes in the decks.

A set of four electric powered trolling/Jigging reels with blocks that could handle 1,000 pound line and a baiting machine.

You could run this as a Longliner and a Troller/Jigger.

As for accomidations 4 bunks in the bow and a gally with stove, sink & diesil cabin heater. a large potty water tank and showers in the 2 heads ( One in the cabin and one on deck to keep the blood & gusts out of the cabin.

A Flybridge with three helms. one up top one in the cabin and one on the back deck

You could make a very nice fishing boat.

If I had somthing like this 72 ft Seaton I would be out Swordfishing & Bluefin fishing all the time

http://www.seatonyachts.com/renderings/70fwd1024.jpg

[brian eiland]

Asking for "troller designs" is a bit like asking for four door sedan designs......there are hundreds of sizes and types from various eras, they range in size from 13' hand trollers of the 1930's to the monster 50-60' boats of the 1970's........
Tad posted an attached 37' Garden design to that posting of his, and as I read thru it I noticed this observation by Garden himself:

In the designer's words, “the boat is designed to carry a heavy load of iced fish, without which she would be 'woefully unstable.' As tempting as it might be to some, she would make a wholly impractical yacht conversion. She is however a capable worker...”

...disclaimer...just an interesting observation by me who has NO real knowledge of these vessel types. Brian

[Tad]

The first post in this thread as well as post #134 make declarations that old troller designs will make good cruising boats. I have tried in various posts in this thread to make clear what a troller is and is not....people don't seem to be getting the message.

A troller is a commercial fishing vessel, it's comfort at sea and stability are both dependent on a heavy load of ice and/or fish. Without this load aboard they are dangerously unseaworthy boats. To convert a troller to a pleasure craft requires the addition of thousands of pounds of ballast which costs money (fuel) to haul around every time you leave the dock. This may be a minor issue if you already own a troller and don't cruise far per year. But building a new hull to haul a large load and then adding ballast to get it down in the water is nutty.....The Seaton design above does this, as well as the Monterey and the Scandinavian influenced PNW designs.

And WickedG....troller plans (William Garden) as well as trawler plans (Albert E. Condon) are most certainly available for study or purchase from the GW Blunt White Library at Mystic Seaport.

[Speedy3]

Trollers are built to carry hundreds of pounds of salmon. Trawlers are designed to drag nets and carry thousands of pounds of catch back to port and may be less stable when light. A trawler needs a lot of ballast if converted. A troller needs much less ballast and is suited well for a passagemaker design. They are two very different designs and many people seem to confuse them.

[Easy Rider]

TAD,
I don't think the troller is as bad as you imply. Only for small periods of time are trollers lucky enough to have a hold full of fish. There are many converted trollers out there and I've heard no stories of unstable converted boats sinking.
Seine boats and other larger fish boats unloaded will have their sterns high in the air and I certainly do wonder how they get around safely. More than light displacement I think pitch attitude is a bigger problem. In the 70s I converted a 30' troller. I took out the GMC gas converted truck engine out of the cabin and installed a 25hp flat head Palmer marine engine w flywheel in front in the fish hold (fwd end on fish hold just a bit aft of center of the boat). I thought it ran quite well.

Easy

[pioneercmt]

I agree with Easy, I have a 36' PNW salmon troller and don't feel dangerous when she's empty of crabs or fish. She weighs around 35,000 lbs, and a full load of iced fish in the hold would be an additional 6,000 - 8,000 lbs. But, I always run with the poles down and locked. If the seas are heavier, I drop in the stabilizers. Maybe a "pleasure yacht" version of my boat would also require stabilizers, but then again it might not have all the rigging on top of the house etc that the commercial fishing version would have, and therefore maybe not need stabilizers?

[Greenseas2]

There have been several salmon trollers that have been converted to pleasure cruisers and I believe there is one on Yachtworld.com at this time. Trollers excel in maintaining control in following seas, especially inlets. Any troller or trawler is designed with a certain amount of ballast and outriggers are installed on fishing trollers mainly to hold several lines outboard while trolling. I believe that they may be to lightly built to serve as roll dampening devices except with very small paravanes. The best aspect of trollers is very low fuel consumption with low powered engines. Trollers with accommodations found in todays trawlers would be as safe, if not safer, in heavy seas. Bear in mind that the USCG life saving boats stationed at inlets are double ended, but with different bottom design to provide higher speed.

[Tad]

don't feel dangerous when she's empty

Yes, I understand, very few boats "feel" dangerous......I would wager that of the 157 fishing vessels that capsized in BC between 1975 and 2005, none "felt dangerous"....yet those boats did capsize and 66 guys drowned......every single boat that I incline and write a stability book for is attested by the owner to be perfectly stable.....yet some do not meet requirements.....owner's do not understand this...."how could that be she feels perfectly safe".

I'm not talking about how the boat feels...I talking about whether it meets or exceeds internationally recognized standards of stability.

These in fact.....

A The area under the righting lever curve (GZ curve) should not be less than
0.055 m-rad up to 30° angle of heel.
B The area under the righting lever curve (GZ curve) should and not less
than 0.090 m-rad up to X° angle of heel.
C The area under the righting lever curve (GZ curve) between the angles of
heel of 30° and X° should not be less than 0.030 m-rad.

X 40° or the angle of flooding θf if this angle is less than 40°. θf is the angle
of heel at which openings in the hull, superstructures or deckhouses which
cannot rapidly be closed watertight commence to immerse.

D The initial metacentric height GM0 should not be less than 350 mm for
single deck vessels. In vessels with complete superstructure the metacentric
height may be reduced to the satisfaction of the competent authority but
in no case should be less than 150 mm.

E The maximum righting lever GZmax should occur at an angle of heel
preferably exceeding 30° but not less than 25°.

F The righting lever GZ should be at least 200 mm at an angle of heel equal
to or greater than 30°. The righting lever GZ may be reduced to the satisfaction
of the competent authority but in no case by more than 2(24-L)%, where

L is the length of the vessel as defined in the FAO/ILO/IMO Voluntary
Guidelines for the Design, Construction and Equipment of Small Fishing
Vessels (2005).

Based on the FAO/ILO/IMO Voluntary Guidelines for the Design, Construction and Equipment
of Small Fishing Vessels, 2005

[Schoonertack]

Tad; I agree. The economics/Seasonality of the fishing industry, (read make hay while the sun shines}. Push boats to the limits. I have seen boats with their decks awash waiting to be unloaded. 0 stability. God may protect fools and sailors (small caps none singled out, myself include) But when you design a boat you better remember these factors. All the best ,one and all

[masalai]

The first post in this thread as well as post #134 make declarations that old troller designs will make good cruising boats. I have tried in various posts in this thread to make clear what a troller is and is not....people don't seem to be getting the message.

A troller is a commercial fishing vessel, it's comfort at sea and stability are both dependent on a heavy load of ice and/or fish. Without this load aboard they are dangerously unseaworthy boats. To convert a troller to a pleasure craft requires the addition of thousands of pounds of ballast which costs money (fuel) to haul around every time you leave the dock. This may be a minor issue if you already own a troller and don't cruise far per year. But building a new hull to haul a large load and then adding ballast to get it down in the water is nutty.....The Seaton design above does this, as well as the Monterey and the Scandinavian influenced PNW designs.

And WickedG....troller plans (William Garden) as well as trawler plans (Albert E. Condon) are most certainly available for study or purchase from the GW Blunt White Library at Mystic Seaport.

My view agrees with this perspective posted by Tad... I contend that the big ocean ploughs are all part of peer or is it Pier pressure as each endeavours to out bling all others with bigger and bigger exhaust holes, a deeper throaty roar and create bigger wakes all proving total and abject inefficiency and inability to part the waters... as well as a demand to burn more fuel than any sane person would wish to spend on moving from one marina to the next, (or usually just going out and back to the same spot), begs the question "Huh?......................."

I have gone for the challenge of being very fuel efficient, spacious and comfortable in most sea-states in the region where I cruise... The writing is on the wall and the moving hand, having writ, moves on :D My range with a fuel-load of less than 1500kg is sufficient for 13 days and lots more of non stop movement at cruise speed... But everyone knows that live-aboard cruisers usually are moving for less than 20% of the time...

The thing is, select your boat for what you will be doing... If you leave the marina briefly (weekend) for 4 or less times a year, get a big houseboat and bling it up... A serious cruiser/live aboard person will look at the region in which they intend to cruise and select accordingly... My research and experience led me to select something less than 40 ft LOA, light, able to sit comfortably on the bottom, and with care, gently bounce over some shallow sandbanks to find that secluded and sheltered anchorage from which to explore by "rubber-duckie", Kayak, or over land - - to discover the beauty and pleasures of your little piece of paradise found...

My boat, "CNO" is a working boat, built to meet a set of needs that does not include eye-candy to impress the jealous observers and critics forever bound and stuck on the wharf...

Further to my point on Pier/peer pressure, "Cruising Cat with America's Cup pedigree" - My goodness, what a load of cods-wallup... At best it is a penis-substitute and bling-machine to pull the chicks looking for a fast buck... It is a miserable grey and rainy day so a browse into the magazine stand to look at the latest Australian Multihull World... An "infomercial" promoting the latest build based on the AC 60 with a "cruising version MC60... Oh dear - obviously too much money and no intention to cruise... I would love to see it CREW only of course on passage up to the Whitsundays in late winter for the owners to be on board for the start of the racing season... The open ocean run from Sydney and up to say, Bundaberg/Gladstone could be "real fun" if a good southerly got going....

[Schoonertack]

I must; therefor 6 knots is a minimum speed for a lifeboat. a cruising speed of V1.15LWL. would be 27.5' LWL (Allways round up) 8 tons would be as light as I would want to be, fuel consumables 10% ballast for a true offshore boat. Call that 18hp. at 6 knots calm weather. 13 x 24 = 312 gallons safety factor 50% or 468 gallons, 3,340 lbs.of fuel. Are we talking much the same thing??

[gundagai]

I have a modified trailer sailer and powered only by an 5hp outboard sleeps 4. Great boat cheep to run . In my life the cheapest and nastiest boats get used and maximiumn enjoyment. Do'nt have to worry about scratches and the like mine is a roughy. Cheers

[ZaaraWilson]

Five steps to keep in mind for yachts :-
1. Install new raw water impellers every two years.
2. Replace engine belts as needed.
3. Service/clean engine raw water strainers as needed.
4. Replace hoses and clamps as needed.
5. Exercise electronics monthly.

[Schoonertack]

Couldn't agree more. 12 foot tinnie skiff. will see more hours of use a year than any other boat, with the exception of a live aboard. Just as an aside, one of the high end boat rags has a tag line on its cover ( one million man hour overhaul), the latest issue. I am as besot with things that float as any other fool. I consider boats the highest form or art. I can not rationalize a million man hour overhaul. Probably a very nice yacht though?

[gundagai]

Yes My boat can be seen if you search Drugsub on the net its the yellow one. They are amazing boats to be able to handle all weathers with huge loads. Next to these is the long slender wave piercing boats that require little power. Look up wave piercing on the net you might be suprised. by the way that boat having one million man hours is over 114 years continual service, amazing. Iggle from http://rideinmodelboats.blogspot.com/

[Easy Rider]

Yea TAD's right. I have a 30' Willard that is much like the troller yacht. A bit wider and shorter w about 23 % ballast. 27.5' WLL and I estimate she needs 18hp to make 6.15 knots. She has 100 gallons of fresh water aft and when she's got empty tanks I would'nt go out in much of a stern sea but the boat is wonderful with full tanks and not too much weight fwd.

Easy Rider