Pilot house - functionality

[globaldude]

I'm building a pilot house 50' yacht and was reading in an old " practical boat owner" magazine, that working boats, EG tugs, don't have the spoked wheel type steering wheels, but rather a truck type steering wheel set up at much the same angle as you'd find in a truck / car .
The article claimed it was more functional and comfortable as opposed to the old salty type spoked version mounted vertically on the bulkhead.
Sound good to me, with room for your legs to go under the wheel I'd say , while seated in your high backed, adjustable armrests, suspention seat .

Now regarding the windows angle ;1; the trawler/ fishing boat forward angled windows VS 2; the sleeker raked back aerodynamic look.

Comments made were, type 1; shaded, wind blows water off the glass, no glare , more agricultural look.
Type 2; suffers from glare - & faded interior, wind blows water up the glass restricting visibility, less wind resistance, smoother looks .

The trawler forward facing [ top ] windows sound more practical to me, but do you think ------ well what's your opinion ?

[Eric W. Sponberg]

Wheel: A truck-type wheel works OK on tugs because tugs do A LOT of maneuvering, so the helmsman is spinning the wheel a lot--you need one of the ball cranks on the wheel to make the work easier. If you are going to be doing mostly long hauls and not touching the wheel too much, then the traditional mariner's vertical mount makes more sense. Think of the resale value, too--pilot houses are highly personal, and a truck-type wheel is unusual and may give a poor impression to a new owner.

Windows: Glare is a big factor when sailing at night. If you intend to spend a lot of nights underway with a helm station right under aft-slant windows, then you will get sick of the glare after about 15 minutes. If your helm station is well back from the windows, the glare might not be a problem. The other consideration, of course, is how do the windows and the shape of the pilot house fit with the rest of the design--the pilot house, deck, and the hull should look like they belong together, not patched together.

I hope that helps.

Eric

[marshmat]

With the electronic autopilots fitted to almost everything these days, and with the electric/hydraulic steering gears that are becoming very common, the wheel style is really just a matter of personal preference. Some boats now (the Dashew FPB 83 comes to mind) don't even use the wheel or throttles, replacing them with a jog dial and sliders on a little controller about the size of a GameBoy. I agree with Eric that if you do have a mechanically coupled wheel, the truck/bus style would be more comfortable to manoeuver with than the vertical mariner's wheel.

I'm a fan of the forward-raked windows myself. It gives more useable space inside, less glare, and 'salty' looks. The sleeker look seems to crop up more on high-style, short-range cruisers than on boats designed for serious ocean work.

[FAST FRED]

"truck/bus style would be more comfortable to manoeuver with than the vertical mariner's wheel."

ANY non spoked wheel , what rag baggers call a destroyer wheel works just fine at fast manuvers.
Remember SOME auto pilots actuall spin the wheel , rather than porting hyd fluid or running a pump.

The smooth outside wheel is far less likely to bother folks than the spoke style rapidly spinning.type

while seated in your high backed, adjustable armrests, suspention seat .

No question an auto (usually Chrysler product) power seat stuck on a pedistal makes a comfortable perch , as does many class 8 treuck seats.

Of course if you have $6000 or so kicking holes in your billfold a STIDD , sure is fine!

FAST FRED

[Guillermo]

Another advantage of the forwarded angled windows is that you get extra space to locate electronics there.

[Redsky]

here is a good compairison global to what eric said..http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp?slim=quick&boat_id=1091207&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=25424&url= very bad,and ugly as sin to....... mutch better are these http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1210960&slim=quick& , http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1250030&slim=quick& , and this http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1165249&slim=quick& , and while im not a fan of raked back windows http://yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1379175&slim=quick& hope this helps provide examples of eric's last comment, my personal fave is the stephens really.its built as a real ship but i like the layout of the black hulled schooner better it carrys 3 times the fuel too. sorry for all the for sale listing links however i think ones that are floating already give the best designe points and ideas.

[Lyle Creffield]

Hi globaldude

Re: forward sloping pilothouse windows

I personal prefer them and at 50 ft they will look ok

Most of the gulf (Gulf of Carpentaria/NE Aust.) boats add a horizontal awning out from the wheel house it is great shade

I have just about finnished costing the construction of a 50 fter here in Aust.
and would be interested in your costings

The obstical to forward facing windows for me is the thought of solid wall of water striking it as opposed to flowing over a raked structure

lyle

[marshmat]

The obstical to forward facing windows for me is the thought of solid wall of water striking it as opposed to flowing over a raked structure
Yes indeed.... it seems most truly seaworthy installations have really beefy windows... like 19 mm tempered glass, or that laminated-polycarbonate stuff the President's limo has. I don't like seeing house window glass in boats... scary.

[Lyle Creffield]

Hi Marshmat

I have not been onboard a vessel that has taken a solid wave over the wheel house

I intend to cruise hopefully in 45-50ft pilothouse sailing vessel

I am not one who believes in weather windows nor do i leave port in a 20 fter with 20 kns blowing

I have been quoted prices for 600 x 600mm certified escape hatches that have only have 10mm polycarbinate?

A 10metre wave has 10tonne per square metre force i can not see these hatches withstanding this even without a sharp object being envolved

Guess if they were to break you could excape- as if

lyle

[globaldude]

Giday Lyle, ahh, "costings " !, I've heard of them .
I think it's probably not too smart to cost out building or I may not have started !!.

No, not really, but truth is, for me anyway, I have no idea what the final cost will be.
I know it'll be a lot cheaper than people say it will and that's mainly because I've allways got my nose to the ground to sniff out "bargains" .
Thus far; Hull & decks [ built like the proverbial brick out house --- I brought it complete but will be modifing it substantially] $15,000.
Ahh, but it came with about 3.5 ton of lead & enough insulation to do the whole boat, [ excess from those bloody frigates us Kiwis built you Auzzis ]
1.5 ton of Lister LP4 engine & hyd box = $750.
Enough Macracarpa timber to do complete fit out - all sarking , framework for furniture carcases etc = free !! , well sort of, it floated down the river next to my house/workshop & I fished it out with a mate's crane then did a few contra deals to get it all milled / thicknessed etc.
Two of my mates have mobile sand blasting units & when ready I'll have earnt enough " credits " to be able to use their gear gratis .
So that leaves me with electrical, plumbing, I have a lot of hydrulic [ can't spell it but still have it] valves, power pacs, fittings, rams, winches etc.
Lets see, paint, prop - have shaft - windows [ more on that later], oh yeah masts, rigging - galvanised - can see the break comming, I have quite a few sails both old & new,
I know there's a miried of things I've missed out, chain , windlass - hope to buy the apropriate gypsy but build my own oversized windlass useing the hydrulic slew gear from a truck crane, they're so powerfull, the hyd motor drives a worm drive.
UH OH !! wife comming, must go, going out for din dinns.
Hope to have boat ready to go for 50 --- 70 K NZ$. dreaming !?, I don't think so , I'll keep you posted, better still , jump on a plane & come over for a look see, you're welcome to stay a few nights. WE can talk rugby or netball , seeings as it's our turn to kick your butts of late.

Really gota go, she's waiting in the car !!!!!!
Pete.

[Lyle Creffield]

Hi Pete

well, that is fantastic - your deals so far!!!!

A great bargan hunter

Having rebuilt from scratch a Diamond Reo truck and a beef property (only 80 breeders) i know that i will not lay the keel untill i can see the project through

At $300 000 AUD est. i will not be laying the keel this year

Some est.
Plans, NC files cutting yet to receive back quote maybe $25K
Mast supplied and fitted, Furlex reefing, Anderson winches 4x 40s 2x50 rig tuned $40K
Main 50 s metres $4.4K-supercruise 8oz, Genoa 8oz 65s m $4k
Yanmar 50 sail drive plus variable pitch prop, exhaust and the basics not fitted $30k
4tonne aluminum plate (10mm)$29k
Est 1200hrs at $50 per hr hull, deck, rudder $60K
10 x 600 x600 hatches $6.7K
Bulb keel $15k ex factor (4t)
Add house windows ,anchor winch, steering (dual) and she will float and be arround for a couple of hundred years for arround $215k

enthusiasm has dimed to but an exercise

Best of luck with your vessel

thanks for the offer but uni beckons for the next couple of years

lyle

[Duma Tau]

Forward leaning deckhouse windows are the best, by a long, long way mate.

No glare, less rain, look good too. Open a window, and the rain stays out while you are anchored, mostly, unless it is driving rain!

I built a few boats and sailed 'em with forward slanted glass, took some heavy water over the wheelhouse roof too, lost the furniture off there as a result, but windows stayed put & watertight.

Lots of reclaimed windows from de-commissioned trawlers in Europe, especially Scotland, whose fleet is decimated by EEC CFP ( Common Fisheries Policy,) the fatcat politicians make skippers scrap their vessels, so lots of parts come up for grabs. MFV windows are massively strong.

The type with vertical sliding action are best, you can lock 'em any height by friction knob, no seals or hinges to screw up or corrode.

Have fun sailing your boat in NZ mate, such a beautiful place.......sailed out of New Plymouth area and visited South Island a year or two ago.
Just fabulous, nearly as pretty as Scotland!

[Duma Tau]

Forgot to say; used a scrapped Citroen 2CV steering wheel for years on my wee Mitchell MFV, it was great!
Just a big daft rim with ONE spoke.
Now that is real minimalist, efficient design.

My current Junk schooner has a wooden spoked wheel mind, and I love it too........her open high placed poop deck right aft means my hands are often cold & wet: wooden spokes feel good at those times.
Looks pretty too, in an old-fashioned way, on a wooden boat like her . Iconic.


Misty Isle ( my 1946 52ft Ring-Netter MFV ) has a crazy-looking Kelvin of Glasgow "Tattie-Howker" wheel.
This resembles an agricultural device, a wagon-wheel with no rim, or potato-harvester hub with wheel spokes sticking out with NO rim anywhere! Idea is/was that herring scales made ordinary wheels useless.....the resultant co-efficient of friction being near to teflon with whale-oil slick.

Best wheel autopilot ever is a 1" Whitworth wing-Nut which locks the Kelvin wheel splindle in desired position with one wee twist man;......she maintains a true course staright ahead for hours that way, no electronics required.

Record was 5 hours SSW enroute Irvine to Carrickfergus Ireland, dead straight. Honest. Had to swerve to miss Paddy's Milestone mid-voyage.

Good Luck!

[globaldude]

Good on ya mate, love the 1" whitworth auto pilot !!.
I wish we had access to the windows you do, any Idea of the thickness & or whether they are tempered / laminated ??. Just to give me an idea as to what to plan for.

I't'd seem the consensuss is for the forward facing windows - hardly surprising for a nautical lot ! - so I guess I'll have to do a drawing or 3 to get a look at what she could / should look like eh .

So glad you liked the sailing you did here, but if it was only the west coast !!?? , the east is way calmer with many more anchorages .

I'd like to think we'd get over your way --- but had't thought to cruise around the UK as [ you probably know ] we're spoilt here, we anchor for free and even berth often for free, and I'm led to believe a whee boat will come out to extract levies should one drop one's anchor in the mother country !! [ yes -no ?]
Oh, we love the whales & don't like [ eat ] herrings here so I should be ok without the spokes ha ha .

[FAST FRED]

Just be sure you can OPEN the FWD window for some ventilation !

And an opening one aft really helps too.

FAST FRED

[Guillermo]

And an opening one aft really helps too.
Yeap! Especially after eating beans... ;)

[safewalrus]

Depends what you want really! Fwd sloping windows and a trucks wheel just don't look right on a salty old sailer do they?

for preferance forward sloping windows are my ideal, but as said depends on the style!

As for the steering bit - most tugs and the like now use either a joystick or a couple of buttons on the autopilot! Wheels? ain't that what that bloke Noah had? As stated above the 'gameboy' style is very close to the average, especially on the big stuff, with a little joystick in the middle - a lot of manouvering on the big stuff is done by using the engines (splitting the sticks) and or the thrusters! A good skipper can make the boat 'dance' without a wheel in sight!

[Duma Tau]

Absolutely! It ALL depends on what one wants.

As for looking right on,

Salty old sailers.............watch " Jazz on a Summer's day" by Bert Stern. The first music documentary or muso-film, it has scenes from Rhode Island - based America's Cup races in 1950s. The jazz is overlaid on some stunning sailing scenes, both water -level, and from aircraft.
One image sticks out, where a vertical axis shaft with truck wheel connected to the rudder is manfully and demonstrably whizzed around by the helmsman of a Grand Banks style cruiser, his navigation driven bony elbows jagging out to port and stbd., and his captainly chin jutting forward. Wonderful stuff.

OK it's only 50 years ago, but..................

[FAST FRED]

One concept we have used , is to locate the HEAD in the dog house.

The person on watch is the mostlikely to need it during the night , and the Deck house suffers from wet oilskins in any sort of weather, so why not locate the shower there too?

For a couple privacy is maintained easily , when a crowd is aboard a call to "Clear The Bridge" gets the needed privacy.

Ventilation is excellent .

Some unique advantages are the ability to observe the local scenery at odd times .

The view out 12 inch Liberty Ship ports is fine , the view IN very restricted .

A head is used at best a few min a day , why seperate out 5 or 10% of the boat for such little use.

On a 33ft loa x 28 lwl vessel the use of limited space needs to be very well thought out.

FAST FRED

[Duma Tau]

Sure is a good idea .........a room with a view, and privacy to boot.

High gunwhales do much the same job as one sits atop the 5gallon oli-drum privy in the cockpit, waving to passing ships as one's effluvia leaves the flesh.

Bucket N Chuckit rules all day in some boats.

[hansp77]

I stayed on a freinds fathers 5 story mezzanine houseboat.
It was the best boat on the lake for 15 years or so (apparantly) but is now probably outdone.
The bottom floor where the toilet is was in the hull below sea level,
so that when gazing out the 'throne' window your eyes were about a foot above sea level.

A most unique and relaxing experience.:cool: :D

[globaldude]

The only blue water sailing I've done was from Fiji back to New Zealand .
No one seems to talk about "trying to" take a dump at sea and I well know why .
The head ,in the 37ft boat we were on, was well forward, so much so that you had to use your arms to hold yourself off the roof & walls !.
So there you are, all muscles tense to station ones arse on the seat, fearing that even if you were able to do something, it might jump up & get you, and it was a really hard thing to try to tell a reluctant svingster to relax enough to evacuate the system !!,
I was telling my brother about it [ he's done no sailing to speak of ] and said ; imagine being in one of those cane baskets atop of an elephant [ thinks big game hunting - safari type ] and trying to take a cr** while the elephant ran over a giant washing board , that's it !!.

So yeah, a shouse at least right next to the pilot house which is big enough for a shower & wet locker is a great idea. My wife gets sea sick for 3 - 5 days so the least movement is in that area also eh !?.
You crack me up Scotty LOL

On views from loos , my optional long drop faces down the river so has a great view & privacy. [ we do have a flushing jobby but I prefer the " fresh" air one.]

[Duma Tau]

Fiji to NZ sounds magical to me. Lucky dude guy to have sailed that way.



But seriously, dear designers; have mercy on sailors fair and male: next time, position the ship's heads midships, even better - on keel centreline-, for a peaceful & stress-free exit of all things eaten.

Funnily enough my current dunny of choice afloat on the good ship DUMA is next to the nav station,(Maybe it's because of all the crap plots I make...........) below the spiral staircase. Shower too. Gawsh.
No kidding.

Jobby Wheechers hereabouts in kilt-wearing-country rely on gravity mostly.
Long drops are the unsurpassable best, with St.Mungo overhead tank cludgies a close second, hard to beat a chain-pull.

Oh, as most seaborne WCs have a flush function, one should always use the bidet option inherent in any water-flushed device. You know it makes sense.
Saves blockages, trees and dags.


Once spent a few days white-baiting on the Mokau river sur le NZ.

Pole-net-Pitch was close to a long drop too.

Fish tasted fine though.

Pass it on.

Have a nice day y'all!:p

[Eric W. Sponberg]

But seriously, dear designers; have mercy on sailors fair and male: next time, position the ship's heads midships, even better - on keel centreline-, for a peaceful & stress-free exit of all things eaten. Have a nice day y'all!:p

On my Globetrotter 45, I took such ideas to heart. The head, galley, master stateroom, and the inside helm are all in the center of the boat, precisely because this is where the motion is least, so performing the appropriate functions in these areas is the most comfortable.

Eric

[Duma Tau]

I wish we had access to the windows you do, any Idea of the thickness & or whether they are tempered / laminated ??. Just to give me an idea as to what to plan for.

Hi Dude; sorry forgot to reply: MFV windows are usually 10mm thick toughened glass. Some are triplex laminated. Alloy frames with vertical sliding panes the most common sort.
There were a whole bunch of them at our Autumn boat jumble last week.
If my mate scraps his MFV I will give you a shout and who knows, maybe do a deal?:rolleyes:

[Tanton Yachts]

It is important to keep weight and people in the middle of the boat.
Head, galley, engine, navigation and saloon.

[FAST FRED]

"It is important to keep weight and people in the middle of the boat."

To have the tankage where the boat will stay in trim full or empty is sane.

People do best in the middle of the center of rotation a great place for the cookie or the bed room, but Prime space for a lump of iron???

Most engines are light enough to be placed almost anywhere today.

Saw the Feng Suey , A Motor sailor heavily built of abour 55 or 60 ft. She carried the engine (a 3000+lb 6-71 , and two gen sets) all the way foward .
Great sense , no one likes to be foward in a sea , the DD never skipped a beat in 2X arround.
The engine room was "proper" plenty of space to address the engine , and room for tools , spairs even the smelly paint locker.

Weight needs to be carried rationally , but the engine in the best/least motion part of the boat? What ever for?

Especially with todays flyweight engines.

FAST FRED

[Duma Tau]

Well, plenty of fishing boats have their donkers way in the bow, a bit daft when you have to take a big fat shaft way way way back to the other end of the boat methinks, but it does give the guys a better freedom of layout for fish holds, freezers and such.

On a pleasure boat, a forward engine has a lot to recommend it, not least reduced noise and improved access.

However I think my engine way AFT is best for me, the drive shaft is shorter than any I saw , the engine makes a fine aft saloon table support, and we can enjoy the heat after anchoring in these Northern climes. The engine maintenance access is superb too.

Noise is worse of course, but I am usually topsides anyhow, when it runs.

The COMFORT of a big engine box aft is great, and it gives a HUGE strong table for free. Our oval permanent ( not fold-out) table seats 12 with ease. On a 12 meter boat, a JDP designed by Dimitri LeForestier. THANKS Dimitri!:D .

This forum topic is about making life comfortable for females inside boats I think, but on this one, I am VERY close to my female side.
Today we had lunch atop the table/engine bay while it ran at 1250 rpm.
It was OK, and the heat was welcome.

In warmer climes, a fan would be good to take heat away from the casing, but we Scots just accept the radiant and convected energy as a bonus.

[stevel]

This forum topic is about making life comfortable for females inside boats I think

Not this thread, but the post is quite relevant to either thread.

[Willallison]

Fred - it's not just about keeping people in the middle, but keeping weight out of the ends

[globaldude]

"This forum topic is about making life comfortable for females inside boats I think, but on this one, I am VERY close to my female side.
Today we had lunch atop the table/engine bay while it ran at 1250 rpm.
It was OK, and the heat was welcome."

Hmmmm !???, one wonders What it was you had for lunch ? I suppose your engine hits a "sweet spot " @ 1250 rpm does it !!??, not TOO much vibration I hope .

[VASCONY]

I'm building a pilot house 50' yacht and was reading in an old " practical boat owner" magazine, that working boats, EG tugs, don't have the spoked wheel type steering wheels, but rather a truck type steering wheel set up at much the same angle as you'd find in a truck / car .
The article claimed it was more functional and comfortable as opposed to the old salty type spoked version mounted vertically on the bulkhead.
Sound good to me, with room for your legs to go under the wheel I'd say , while seated in your high backed, adjustable armrests, suspention seat .

Now regarding the windows angle ;1; the trawler/ fishing boat forward angled windows VS 2; the sleeker raked back aerodynamic look.

Comments made were, type 1; shaded, wind blows water off the glass, no glare , more agricultural look.
Type 2; suffers from glare - & faded interior, wind blows water up the glass restricting visibility, less wind resistance, smoother looks .

The trawler forward facing [ top ] windows sound more practical to me, but do you think ------ well what's your opinion ?

The question is whether you like to feel like a fork lift driver, or a real mariner.
Definitely, my choyce would be a vertical mounted spoked wheel. Check
www.nordhavn.com
I can't understand why those guys have replaced theyr destroyer type of wheel on NH40 and NH43 with a truck type.
After all, it obstruct the view right behinde, so you wouldn't put your plotter there.

[FAST FRED]

For cruising there is little need for a wheel as most folks have an autopilot , and "steer" with the remote. A side stick works well too.

So with the major need for a wheel for docking , the ability to see the dock becomes as important as the size or shape or pattern of the wheel.

For a 30 to 50fter the vertical stick as used by launch operators , works rapidly , with good feedback and is takes little room.

Just be sure its on the correct side for your prop rotation.
FAST FRED