Dutch Barge long distance cruisers

[Greenseas2]

It would seem that the new Dutch Motor barge replicas would be great long range boats for ICW and coastwise motoring. They are spacious and have the capacity to carry sufficient fuel for a trip of 1,000 miles or better. They are also seaworthy and continually cross the English Channel in all kinds of weather. Below there's enough space for three passenger cabins, a couple of heads and a salon/galley with enough room behind the pilot house for crew quarters. The pilothouses on most Dutch barges have windows on all four sides for excellent visibility while going along the waterways. Power for the 45 foot Dutch barfes is mderate and you won't set any speed record, but you will travel in unparalleled comfort. Selway Fisher has a good plan for this type of vessel that can be made of strip plank rather than steel. Thoughts?

[Sander Rave]

Keep a powerfull bow thruster at hand for crowded places. Wind is a serious partner.
I've been sailing an old one (32m) without a thruster, on a bussy day it can be pretty tricky crossing bridges etc.

[Greenseas2]

Thanks for the input. For over 50 years I've been operating single engine boats and occassionally single engine tugs with 200 to 400 foot tows. High sided barges can be a little difficult in high winds, but the answer to handling them is more in line with forward ballast tanks than thruster. Personally, the less machinery on board is the less machiery that can fail and require expensive maintenance. We operate in one of the most densely populated areas of the US for boats, South Florida. I try my level best to prevent really close proximity situations when navigating through a lot of other vessels. If situations arise, it is wise to reduce speed to minimum steerage way so that if you need to maneuver suddenly, you can jam the throttle forward and get maximum thrust to the rudder for turning. More a matter of seamanship than equipment.

[Sander Rave]

So I don't have to warn you for these things.
Two nice pics though: one for your interrest and the other on a sunny day in our little crowded country. I was refering to this kind of populated places. You have a hard time maneuvring with little or no speed and nowhere to go.

I agree with you on the seamanship, but the truth is somewhere inbetween though (as always ;-)

[SeaSpark]

Could you specify "Dutch Motor barge replica" a bit more, no traditional dutch barge could cross the north sea safely. Also the pilot house confuses me.

I have been sailing in holland for many years and have seen all types of barges.

The two pictures represent a barge converted to cruiser (will never be seaworthy) and a modernized traditional cruiser (later variants were developed that are seaworthy).

[Greenseas2]

Sander, I see what you mean with the congestion. Good place not to be even with twin engines and thruster. LOL
SEASPARK: The newer versions of replica barges are indeed seaworthy and not flat bottom. With the pilothouse I was referring to thee one on the right in your photos. I've spent sa lot of time in Ghent Belgium and have admired the replicas that I have seen. I even saw one with a sail attached where the forward mast is and had an opportunity to speak with the owner. Many changes being made in thee world of replicas.

[yipster]

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5999&d=1145458027
this is a rebuild barge? than i sure want to live on it again! once had thoughts shortening the big old barge i lived on as was occasionally done

[SeaSpark]

You could call the Linssen DS a development of a traditional dutch motor cruiser.

In general i don't like the traditional cruisers that much, sailors in Holland have all kinds of unkind names for them (strijkijzer of zetpil bijvoorbeeld), you asked for an opinion so.... , but the Linssen DS i like a lot.

It won the 2002 yacht design award on this site:

http://boatdesign.net/archive/linssen_yachts.htm

[Greenseas2]

This appears to be a nice boat but probably has twin engines. The thought of the thread was to look for and identify Dutch barge cruising boats that can be used as full time homes as well as cruise economically. As an example, boats such as the Seway Fiosher design Teign River Gravel Barge might be a starting point for novices.

[SeaSpark]

The selway Fisher Teign motor barge seems very economical to me in way of power needed and lenght/livingroom ratio. It is not typically dutch.

Could you explain what you are missing in this design.

Yipster: I tried to make a distinction between "barge converted to cruiser" and a "modernized traditional cruiser" two different but typical kinds of motor cruisers in holland.

[Greenseas2]

There are two parts of the design that leave me cold. The first is the stern with outboard rudder. I like the traditional round stern. The second is the pilothouse is not of the traditional Dutch barge design with helm station , around seating and table found in most replicas and commercial barges. I understand thAt Paul Fisher is designing a 45 foot barge to be built in steel. Hopefully that one will be more traditional. The advantage of building your own is that you can install additional fuel tanks during the building process.
Most of the European precut kits that I have seen are too expensive for the average person to build and furnish. A Naval Architect friend of mine, Tom MacNaughton has designed a canal barge also, but the pilothouse here also leaves something to be desired. For ICW, northern canals and river work, it wouldn't be too hard to design a barge to be built of plywood, fiberglass cloth and epoxy in the 45 foot length. The key to the suitability of the Dutch barge design is liveability and cruising with a small engine for long distances without the frequent need to refuel and take on water. Your thoughts?

[FAST FRED]

"For ICW, northern canals and river work, it wouldn't be too hard to design a barge to be built of plywood, fiberglass cloth and epoxy in the 45 foot length"

For the ICW it might be fine , but in anyplace where there ARE barges,

Some days you tie to a barge.
Somedays the barge ties to YOU.

Would be rather leery of 75+ tons coming alongside , very often.

Why not purchase an old LST and install a house trailer?
Lots of room , low cost & up keep , no worries about alongside barges.

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

The Dutch barge is a cruising vessel not a commercial barge and therefore wouldn't be positioned where heavier barges would tie up to it. Essentially, the original Dutch barges were flat bottomed cargo carriers, many of which have been converted to live aboards in Europe. The best attributes of the Dutch barge design is lots of internal volume, low power requirements and relatively long range. Great for those who want to live aboard and cruise inland waterways. The new replicas have either hard or round chines and are OK for moderate near coastal or island travel from Florida to the Bahamas. l'm also an aviator, rotor and fixed wing.

[Greenseas2]

Hi Fred. An LST is over 300 feet long, an LSV is 374 feet and an LCU is 174 feet. I believe that you might mean a LCM 6 or LCM 8. Both are twin engine and expensive to both run and maintain. The idea with the Dutch barge concept is to develope the Dutch barge design in the US where folks of modest means can build a spacious vessel to live aboard and cruise with. With the cost of housing today, as well as property taxes, the Dutch barge would be a great option for people in just about every walk of life. Long term advantages are (1) no taxes, (2) more than adequate living space for a small family, (3) the ability to cruise economically (4) own an aesthetically pleasing vessel. The goal of the thread is to come up with design ideas that can be practically applied to creating a design and layout that be economically built buy a couple of dedicated people. Rather than plywood, Selway Fisher uses strip plank, fiberglass cloth and epoxy for a sturdy long lasting hull.

[Windvang]

Dutch barges are in steel because:
A: it's cheap and strong.
B: It gives the desired weight to get volume in the boat.

See: http://www.euroshipservices.nl/ for plans and pictures (in Dutch)

[Greenseas2]

I agree with you on the use of steel and see where you're coming from with your affilitation with Euroship. The designs are well thought out and beautiful. Unfortunately, in the US, Dutch style barges have been too exoensive to import, and the interest in Dutch Barge style cruising vessels is just becoming popular. as a live aboard option. We may have to rely on a Naval Architect from the Netherlands to produce a Dutch Barge design for construction in the US. It would have to be associated with kits and home building. Euroship and other builder of Dutch barges have a staff of professional welders available. In the US we would have to work with contract welders on a part time basis similar to producing individual on-off boats.

[SeaSpark]

From Euroship only the Vripack Survey and Vripack Trawler Yacht would be capable of cruising to the Bahama's safely.

I also agree on steel as a building material for boats this size. Steel is very cheap. But ... Interior costs play a big role in total buiding costs and in a steel boat you have to build a wooden one for interior. This is where you can safe money when you build a wooden boat.

For an inexperienced home builder wood is also a good choice. But.... Anyone can learn to weld.

One more question: I even saw one with a sail attached where the forward mast is how important is the sail option?

[Greenseas2]

The strip plank building method is probably the best for a layman. Almost any Dutch barge could cross from Miami to Bimini, Bahamas when the wind is out of the south. There is usually only about 2 foot seas. Most cruisers normally depart from Biscayne Bay around midnight so as to take advantage of night calms and to reach the Bhamas reefs in daylight.

[Greenseas2]

I believe also that it would be significantly easier for lay people to assemble a wooden boat and advocate simplicity of design to promote that end. Simplicity is directly related to economy of building, and therefore would attract a greater number of people. Any design ideas?

[SeaSpark]

On a calm day you could try it in an Optimist dinghy this does not make it a suitable vessel.

I WW2 Germany had plans to invade England useing barges, many seaman in Holland still would like to have seen what had happended if they tried, even if they waited for a calm day.

(sorry to mention a war here please do not continue on this subject)

[Greenseas2]

With the Dutch barge design, the trip to Bimini was used as an example in that once there, cruising the Bahamsa Banks top other islands is not a problem. Once again, the goal of the design is for river, Erie, Oswego and Champlain canals and ICW travel with optimum livability.

[safewalrus]

Going back to the steel thing; the main reason that 'barges' are built in steel is about protection of the contents (no matter what type). So if you can GAURANTEE you will not hit or be HIT By anything don't build in steel, if however you intend to use your vessel in waters used by others, especially commercial vessels then steel is the way to go, for your safety as much as anything else - it's not that commercial bargee's don't care they just don't have the time or manpower to treat every thing like it's made of egg shells!

Greenseas2 you say your an airplane pilot, do you only land at private strips, and what happens (God forbid) if you have an emergency and need to land quick - "Oh sorry Mr Control Tower I can't land on your airfield, it has commercial traffic and my little areoplane won't like it!"

As I said depends where your doing your boating!

[FAST FRED]

"With the cost of housing today, as well as property taxes, the Dutch barge would be a great option for people in just about every walk of life. Long term advantages are (1) no taxes, (2) more than adequate living space for a small family, (3) the ability to cruise economically (4) own an aesthetically pleasing vessel. The goal of the thread is to come up with design ideas that can be practically applied to creating a design and layout that be economically built buy a couple of dedicated people."

Unfortunatly with the death of the USCG (now the homeland security federal marine police) much of their "expertise" has been passed on to local communities.

With the old USCG anchoring was part of naigation , a protected right.

Today every tiny town and satrap now "owns" all the water as far as their ignorant greedy eyes can see.
So a place to anchor will be very restricted by liveaboard rulles and FEES.

Slips will run as much as $3.00 per ft per night , $120 per night does not seem in the range of 40ft box boat vagrants.
Here in FL "cheap" is $1.25 a foot per night + electric , but it requires a 6 month advance payment IN FULL.

"Once again, the goal of the design is for river, Erie, Oswego and Champlain canals and ICW travel with optimum livability."

On the Riddeau canal the barges were wood, so when the canal filles to within 4 or 6 inches of the top , little damage was incurred if the barge contacted the stone lock walls.

This is a very difficult situation to fender for on a steel box that will need the usual 6 or 7 coats of paint when scratched.

Boats are great fun , but a solution to high housing prices there not.

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Fred,
I'm in Florida also in Port St. Lucie. The latest legislation permits people to tie up along the ICW and Okeechobee Waterways free of charge. My boat is here at Club Med and there is a anchorage where people put down there own morrings, at no charge. The Stuart causeway and Peck Lake which are near Suart on the ICW also have several live aboards there. In running tugs and barges as well as small frieghters, it is a common sight to see live aborad boats along the ICW and rivers. It is also common to see people commuting to jobs in dinghies from live aboards. People who live on their boats year around are an ingenious cross section of society and adapt their chosen life style to their needs. Being that they anchor/moor outside of active channels, the choice of wooden and fiberglass construction is appropriate to meet the needs. I have also met several widows/widowers who live aboard due to necessity and little retirement income. They're as nice as your next door neighbor. These are folks who can afford avessel costing a couple of hundred thousand dollars. A further consideration is that the price of steel has sky rocketed over the past two years.

[FAST FRED]

"I'm in Florida also in Port St. Lucie. The latest legislation permits people to tie up along the ICW and Okeechobee Waterways free of charge. My boat is here at Club Med and there is a anchorage where people put down there own morrings, at no charge."

Here in Ortona there is no problem with an anchored vessel. The problem is here there is no "public" land to get from the boat to a road.

Tresspassing in FL , with the finest gun laws in the USA , might be risky , to say the least.

A town that has a public dock , parking and free garbage disposal is rare.
In nearby La Belle there is a free dock , with water & electric too!

But the limit is 3 days , although the Canadians violate that over & over & over & over, some need to be cut loose to leave.

Seems FREE is the Canadian National Religion after the Gov has siezed all their money for "insurance" schemes.

Come on over to Ortona for a visit , we have 300 ft of dock space thats usually open.

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Hi Fred,
I haven't found any problems in tying up to the bank. I would guess that it might be OK to make arrangement with a land owner to have a right of way across his property if you guarantee not to tear it up. Most of the boats the tie up to the bank, either to trees or by pounding stakes in the ground, is just for over night. I've come through your area several times with both commercial vessels and my own. We'll be doing it more frequently now since my brother in law moved to Ft. Myers. He's a darned good sailer and was with me on the schooner during Hurricane Bertha.
Duane

[bdillahu]

I know I'm late on this thread, but wonder if anyone would care to expound on why they seem to think the Dutch barge style would have such bad sea-keeping ability. I know its not a North Sea read passagemaker or something, but from the other accounts I've read of crossing (fairly rough) English Channels, etc. it doesn't look like it would be that bad.

The Dutch certainly seemed to use that design for a long time :-)

Not trying to be argumentative... trying to learn.

Thanks!

Bruce

[Greenseas2]

The Dutch have been using the motor barges in the English channel for decades. Most of the time they were loaded with cargo and very few times light ship. Another design similar to the Durch barge in hull form were the flat bottom Scottish and Irish Puffers (VICs) that were continually in open water and have an excellent safety record.

[SeaSpark]

Found a reasonable definition of barge at wikipedia.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barge. When you let loose this definition on boats the dutch have been and are using and try to define a tipical dutch barge (which does not exist) you have to look at the first picture Sander Rave posted a sort of offspring is the first picture i posted. No Dutch barge by this definition has ever entered the North Sea, including the Enlish Channel, under control of a sane sailor.

If you want a boat for these sort of waters do not call it a barge.

[Greenseas2]

The definition of thwe cruising Dutch Barge is similar to the working variety which are more in the freighter catagory. I spent quite a bit of time in Ghent and Rotterdam and, in fact, did see freight motor barges at sea. The definition is only to the appearance of the vessel rather than the true Dutch barge. Same with freight barges in Germany. Even though many barges have been turned in to residences, the cruising barge design is quite seaworthy under noramal conditions.

[Greenseas2]

Within the scope of this thread, we are discussing the utility of the Dutch barge design as being a roomy, low powered and economical live aboard for cruisinmg mostly inland waterways, rivers and canals of the US. Your expertise in the design of a small (40 to 50 foot) cruising version would be quite valuable to the discussion. Choice of building materials is also important to bring the viability of having a Dutch "style" barge to those of medium income. As in Europe, there are many who live year around on converted and replica barges and are quite happy with their environment. Here, we're seeking to bring the same lifestyle and vessels to the US waterways.

[SeaSpark]

We call these kind of ships coasters, yes we borrowed it from the Enlisch language.

Included pictures of a typical old and a modern dutch coaster.

[SeaSpark]

Greenseas i completely agree with you, there is a need for the kind of vessel you are interested in, also in Holland.

When i have time for it i will make a design proposal in multi chine construction.
It would be helpfull if you could find some pictures of the kind of features you like on a boat like this.

[Greenseas2]

I will try to come up with a concise narrative for a motor barge within the next few days, and I do appreciate your help.

[Sander Rave]

Maybe a bit late Seaspark,
Replying to a previous remark you made about the Northsea, I wouldn't do it anyway ;-)

6bf on the Waddensea isn't comfortable but doable, even with an relative low powered (kromhout diesel) barge.

Biggest problem is the rolling and maybe even more, on high seas the windows will be blown out. (at least on the typical old style barges, the steering house is sertanly not made seaworthy)

[Greenseas2]

As with any other vessel, you have to know what the reasonable limits of the vessel are and the seas that she will be safe in. Granted, many of the pilothouses are fold down and have large window areas that are vulnerable, but in knowing that, you operate in more moderate sea conditions. With any boat design we can introduce extreme sea conditons where the integrity of design will be jeopardized. In the US, even inlets on the east and west coast can have impassable sea conditions, but most knowledgable skippers wait until conditions improve before crossing them.

[SeaSpark]

Greenseas you are even more stubborn then i am. Made a post in the Troller/Trawler thread about what i think you are looking for.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=85634&postcount=51

[Guillermo]

...Included pictures of a typical old and a modern dutch coaster.
I love the old one....

[bransonboats]

Have a look at www.bransonboats.com we design steel dutch barges that are available as precut kits or DXF files for cutting locally. Also doing passagemaker type boats as well.

Although some of our barges can be rated as cat B of the RCD my thoughts are that there are better shaped hulls that are more seakindly than a Dutch Barge.

[bransonboats]

Have a look at www.bransonboats.com we design steel dutch barges that are available as precut kits or DXF files for cutting locally. Also doing passagemaker type boats as well.

Although some of our barges can be rated as cat B of the RCD my thoughts are that there are better shaped hulls that are more seakindly than a Dutch Barge.

Nick

[Greenseas2]

Thanks for the information. I have seen branson boats, but wasn't ware that they offered files for local steel cutting.

[nickbranson]

Yes, we have supplied DXF cutting files as far away as Australia! At lot easier than arranging shipping and road transport. Getting back to the question of Dutch Barge seaworthiness we have designed two Passagemaker type vessels with a low enough airdraft for the French inland waterways. Loads of accomodation yet very seaworthy. By the way our website address has been changed to www.dutch-barges.net
http://www.dutch-barges.net/images/small/thomas.html_PHOTO1.jpg

[RCardozo]

Jeez where to begin. I own a Dutch Sailing Barge built in 1893. Barges were originally designed as inland cargo vessels. Their shape is due to a number of factors. A flat bottom could be beached loaded and floated. Lee boards left a large interior space for maximum blockage of cargo. The blunt rounded stern and bow gave boyancy to plow thru heavier seas. They punch through the waves less than cleave them. Kind of a wet process. Still they were inland boats for the most part. Some are of heavier construction for heavier seas. Originally sail powered the mast could be lowered to get under bridges and sell your cargo in town. When combustion engines came on the scene they were added. \you do not want to be on a flat bottomed boat in a following sea off the aft quarter of any size. It will roll. The new replicas are really selling the size and modifying the motorized versions that developed after combustion engines were developed. This means sharper bows, more v hulls etc.

[Guillermo]

Hi, Cardozo!
Could you post pictures of your barge?
Cheers.

[Greenseas2]

The intial intent of the thread was to get input on an economic design of a Dutch style barge that could be built reasonably with any number of materials. The flat bottom barge will naturally roll in a seasway, but is probably the best for an relatively amateur builder. Any number of building mediums can be used from steel to strip plank to ferrocement. The end goal is to build a long distance capable Dutch style barge for predominently inland liveaboard travel. Few other designs have the internal volume that would provide exceptional living space, tankage and all of the other variables within a single hull form. A 5 to 6 knot speed would be acceptable in most cases as people who live on barges are generally not in a hurry to get anywhere. The words "Ocean capable" and " Barge" are seldom used together even though a modicum of seaworthiness is desired.

[RCardozo]

Here she is. The last picture is before I fixed her up.

[Greenseas2]

The photos of your barge are really nice and it looks like she has a lt of living space.

[RCardozo]

She does. That is why some many liveabords use them. It is really like a small apt. 1100 s.f. of area. Headroom is between 7'-6" and 6'-1". Draft is 3' with the leeborads up.

[Guillermo]

Here she is.
Nice job!

The last picture is before I fixed her up.
You have to be kidding! :!:

[FAST FRED]

It is really like a small apt. 1100 s.f. of area.

DAMN!!!

My house here in CT is only 700sq ft,or so 22x36.

FF

[RCardozo]

Well she is basically 73' x 16' shape with headroom throughout. Herew are two pictures. One is the unfinished forward hold and the other is the mid ships salon.

[SamSam]

Well she is basically 73' x 16' shape with headroom throughout. Herew are two pictures. One is the unfinished forward hold and the other is the mid ships salon.

Is the concrete the floor of the salon? BTW, my e-mail doesnt work, so you'll have to send a Private Message or post in the Riveted Hull thread. Sam

[RCardozo]

The hull has 2" x 9" "L" shaped beams at every 11". Concrete covers these 2". The pressure treated stringers bolted to the slab the 3/4" plywood. The plywood is copper treated on the backside. Above that is a laminate floor.

[Greenseas2]

The barge is indeed beautiful and you've done a great restoration job on it. I still beive that a boat like the Selway Fisher 45 foot barghe modified with a round stern and a Dutch style wheel house would be within the capabilities of most rather amatuer builders in the US, and be significantly less expensive to build. As house prices sky rocket, we see more and more people buying used boats of all types as dwellings that are free from a high initial purchase expense and free from property taxes. With seniors on the water, they are also free from high school taxes in that they've already paid those when raising their own families. I can't think of any better vessel with a higher internal volume to fill the housing and mobility needs of a growing population than an inexpensive Dutch style barge. Most of these boats are stable enough to even carry a small electric car or golf cart for shoreside shopping and other transportation needs.

[RCardozo]

I agree however many municipalities don't encourage liveaboards and the liveaboards themselves are part of the problem, ie. expanding crap all over the dock, run down sinking boats etc. One of my biggest fears is not having a place to put the boat. The marinas want to charge huge fees to the huge yachts 3 months out of the year rather than rent slip space to a liveaboard. Waterfront property is so expensive best use usually precludes any sort of affordable development.

[Greenseas2]

Here in Florida there are hundreds of miles of shore line along the ICW where liveaboard barges can tie up for extended periods. In other places you may be limited to 30 days at a time due to "being in navigation" laws. The same applies to most states from Florida to Maine on the east coast. You are correct about some places being trashed by liveabords, but usually local ordinances are enforced and those who wish to live in squalor are either fined, or made to clean up the mess they have caused and leave the area. Water front property is indeed expensive, and as such, receives a lot of focus from towns. There are also hefty fines for abandoning boats and more and more they are being enforced. It's up to each of us to monitor and report any facility that permits live aboards to mess things up for the rest of us. It's been a long time since there have been any rundown vessels along the local waterways mainly due to recent emphasis on boats being registered and taxed, or federally documented and taxed. One could travel the waterways all year long and only use marinas to take on fuel and water. Anchoring out isn't a problem and using your dinghy to go shopping saves marina fees as most marinas will let you tie your dinghy up to their dock free of charge for a short while.

Anyone who can afford to own and operate a Dutch style barge is of a caliber way above being a waterfront bum. We have recently gone to work on a design for a 48 foot composite barge, but even being self built, the boat isn't cheap. Having been aboard a few working barges in Belgium and Germany, I have found the owners and operators very environmentally aware as well as being neat and clean both with themselves and their vessels.

[RCardozo]

well said. I am in the Baltimore Inner harbor area and the entire shoreline is slated for development. Its funny how the pretty renderings always show boats yet the development seems to not address any real use of the waterfront for boats unless they are tied into the real estate development. I don't need a million dollar condo on the water, thats why I have a barge! The municipalities use a hammer to kill a fly. I agree get rid of the slobs and make everything better for the rest of us. Describe this composite barge for me.

[Greenseas2]

I run commercial vessels from Florida up through the C&D Canal and then either to Philly or further north on the Atlantic. While there is a lot of the landscape being replaced by condo complexes on the ICW and rivers, there's still a lot of open space to tie to the bank with stakes, or anchor in secluded areas. Too, many of the waterfront towns have free public docks, but also usually have a time limit on how long you can stay. Refueling during the week is key in that most marinas will let you stay long enough to reprovision at the local market. Forget it on weekends though.

In traveling the east coast waterways, many of the places that used to have junk boats are gone. You'll still find a few up back waters and at some of the older family owned yards. In my own private boat, we've found several good places to tie up on the Okeechobee waterway canals as well as the Erie Canal up north also. With the cost of land, old unused or dilapidated wooden and fiberglass boats are being cut up and removed to make room for revenue generating boats. Within the past 5 years, the boating industry has done a lot to clean up almost all of the waterways.

[Pierre R]

I am in the process of forming the specs for my next boat that will ply the ICW, river and canal waters.

I am toying with something around 40' long 12' wide with a draft of no more than 2' and and air draft of no more than 10' with everything down. Yes I want it seaworthy. No I don't want onena them thar boats they forgot to put the wheels on.


I want a salty traditional looking vessel that can gunkhole in shallow areas where the tide may even leave you high and dry. I no longer want to hear myself say " I wana go where that ******* just went"

I want the vessel to fit on a custom built semi trailer so it can be easily transported and easily put on a RO-RO boat for shipment overseas.

Right now my thoughts are centering around a low powered high volume jet drive assisted by a bow thruster.

[Wilma Ham]

Windvang, what a fantastic website of euroship services. I love the pictures, especially of the luxe motorschip 1500 and how the pilot house folds away to go under the bridge. Just splendid.
It is a shame that there are no pictures of the interiors.
Wilma

[Greenseas2]

Hi Pierre, If you want to build a Dutch Barge, sea worthiness would be classified as going outside when it's flat calm. By in large, Dutch style barges are inland boats and would be great on the ICW. You would still have to carefully watch when crossing large inlets with high sea condition. The more prudent skippers would wait for calmer conditions. In most cases, a personally built barge will probably be flat bottom in order to get into the shallows with light draft. With any condition beyond moderate, flopper stoppers might help, but are expensive and put a lot of strain on the vessel's structure. Better give those specs that you're drawing up a lot of consideration if you plan to do much cruising on the outside.

Our company is currently drawing 2 sets of specs and plans. One for a Dutch Style Barge that is 48' x 12' with an 80 Hp engine and the other is 60' x 15'. The first is of strip plank construction and the second is made with sheets of plywood scarfed together. Both are covered with fiberglass and all wood epoxy coated inside and out. The thrust here is to develop economical barges for ICW, canal and river cruising in moderate conditions and to be fitted out with standard house furniture that is well secured.

[Pierre R]

Greenseas2 I am not sure I am leaning that direction entirely. I am thinking more along the lines of modified deep V such as the Hunt/ Hood Whisperjet designs. I could buy one of those off the shelf but the price and engine configurations are not to my liking.

I either want to go with something like that or put all my money into strutural engineering and systems and go with the house type interior as you suggest.

[Greenseas2]

What may suffice for long term residency on the water is a widebeam narrowboat with dutch barge pilothouse of the type that is gaining popularity in Europe. Big problem with narrowboats with the 6 foot beam is taking wakes from other boaters on the ICW and rivers whereas the widebeam designs are more seaworthy and have better accommodations. They also are economical to operate in this day of high fuel prices. One of the nicer features are large expanses of windows which keeps the "cave effect" away which is found in most boats. A 55' x 10' widebeam narrow boat only requires about a 50 hp to 70hp to achieve good cruising speed. With 300 gallons of diesel onboard, this translates to a range of between Miami and New York. It can be set up with large salon/galley, head with shower and a couple of bedrooms with home sized beds and dressers. There is room in the pilothouse for seating of 4 or 5 people. Not a bad thought for those who want a real live aboard floating home.

[RCardozo]

Pierre,
Pay attention. I think Green seas is right. I own a 73' x 17' Dutch Sailing barge powered by a 125 h.p. Detroit 671 diesel. I can do about 7 mph cruising and consume about 1.75 MPG. Draft is 3'. Now my boat has lee boards that can drop to 12' howwever you could add stabilizers on the sides to counter the roll. The advantage of a barge type hull is blockage. The ability to basically have a rectangular cross section which greatly increases livability. It may roll a bit but my boat can handle 6' seas w/ no problem. Remember these boats were in the north sea as cargo boats. the rounded bow gave added bouyancy to keep the deck from being innundated in heavy seas. A v-hull vs. a barge hull are two very different animals. Have you considerd a cat type hull. I think that suits your need.

[colinstone]

An excellent idea - I am currently fitting out a EuroShipServices 22m luxemotor in UK - www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk
UK/European insurance companies have a Force 4 forecast limit on exposed water crossings - crossing the Channel. We crossed in F3/4, rolled a bit but nothing moved and we were not secured for sea.

[RCardozo]

Gee I wish I had insurance. No one in the US is familiar with these things so I have had trouble finding insurance. I have been told that the boat should be able to handle 6-7' seas. I have been in 4' seas and it can roll quite a bit especially with a following sea from the aft quarter. It doesn't cleave the waves so much as punch through them.

[Greenseas2]

Other than flopper stoppers, at the next haul out you can have bilge plates welded to each side of your vessel and the should reduce the roll significantly. Bilge plates differ from bilge keels as they don't have heavy weight as do keels. Bilge plates permanently welded on should be a lot less expensive than flopper stoppers and associated gear. Many commercial fishing vessels in the UK are fitted with bilge plates to dampen roll. Long bilge plates on a barge might also benefit tracking under way, but shouldn't affect maneuverability that much.

[SeaSpark]

Greenseas2: As this thread is switching from seaworthy barges to wide narrowboats could you please post a picture of the type of vessel you have in mind?

Beeing flopper stopped in large waves behind big windows sounds dangerous to me.

[Greenseas2]

Hi Seaspark
The original intent was for an inland waters Dutch style barge for cruisng the waters of the US Intracoastal Waterway and rivers. Also, the intention was to develop a long range crusing home for full time live aboards that would be both economical to build and operate. As with all other threads, detours are sometimes taken by other writers; however, within these side tracks, we might also find useful information that could apply to the main theme. As we all realize, barges are generally flat bottom, long and narrow vessels and ill suited for anything but moderately calm water such as the ICW and rivers. Large inlets open to the ocean and the Great Lakes can also cause concern and should be addressed with caution. Barges in high seas would be somewhat dicey at best in that they would tend to wring and twist. At the very least, it would turn the furnishing in the cabins to shambles. Too, most economical Dutch Barges lack the power to be going to sea, but are very efficiently and economically operated on protected waters. I've towed several very large barges in open ocean with 8 to10 foot seas and can honestly say that I was happy to be in the towing vessel rather than on the barge. As far as the thread goes, if someone is looking for an answer to a question, it is incumbant on other writers to provide an answer that is meaningful and helpful to the person asking the question. Who knows, we just may get some new designs out of the interchange of ideas.

[Greenseas2]

To clarify equating the Dutch style barge with the wide beam narrowboat with pilothouse, it would appear that the wide beam narrowboat is somewhat of a scaled down Dutch style barge. A 45 foot narrowboat with a 10 foot beam would have almost the space and accommodations for long term living and cruising and would be significantly less expensive to build and power. Being flat bottomed, plumb bowed and plumb sided, it would also appear that the widebeam narrowboat would also be very economical to build of plywood and epoxy as well as building with steel. As with all powered barges and narrowboats of the past, they were built to be profitable and alot of the profitability of these vessel came from being economical to build and operate, plus carry a substantial load of various cargos. To get a quick glimpse of a wide beam narrowboat built in the US, look at the web site for for Mid-lakes Navigation who rent widebeams on the Erie Canal System. Of course, their boats don't have the Dutch Style pilothouses that would be necessary for long term crusing in all weather, but they are nicely outfitted.

[RCardozo]

What alot of people forget is that the Dutch Barge was originally a sailing vessel. As such they had a heel of maybe 7 degrees. Of course the sail acted as a steadying sail. In the canal they were towed by draft animals or people. With the advent of engines the shape and function modified a bit as engines took over. The narrow boats are primarily of U.K. orgin as their canals are smaller than european canals. Sailing barges are so rare now that most people forget that that was the original purpose. A flat bottom hull does roll more but the boats handled better under sail. The flat bottom is more of a liability under power. The Dutch Barges were frequently beached on mudflats to load cargo then floated off.
Attached are two pictures.

[SeaSpark]

Sorry if my previous question was a bit short but it's main purpose was to get a more clear view of the kind of boat we are talking about here.

From what i understood so far it will have to be an easy to build multi chine steel hull with boxy sections over most of it's length. I'm puzzled with the "Dutch Style pilothouse" you are referring to. I have the same problem here as with the "Dutch Barge".

"Dutch Barge" is a very unclear definition, many steel classic sailing vessels here are round bottomed. The hull shape of the boat RCardozo posted was an exact copy of the traditional wooden sailing vessels build in steel. Many were later motorized but newly build motor vessels from the same time had a more rational hull shape. The type of barge RCardozo is referring to is quite common here, even new ones are build for the charter market but they are most certainly not easy (cheap) to build. Many different types of vessels a bit like RCardozo's have evolved here and they all have their own name. Discussions about their proper name can lead to long nights in the bars the traditional boat sailors frequent.

When you call them all barges including the boats Vripack produces and any other boxy steel boat produced in whatever country you end up with an unworkable definition.

Included a picture of a Lemsteraak (or Lemmeraak discussion still going) it is a boat type that evolved last from traditional boats and was and is used only for pleasure and races The midsections are almost perfectly circular They were called jacht in dutch which means something like "fast boat" in fact they were among the first pleasure boats in the world, the English language later adopted the word "Yacht". New Lemsteraken (plural) are still build and developed using CFD and tow tanks to produce an optimal hull shape within the limitations the classic racing committees set. A luxury racing ready version will set you back over 1.000.000 us$

You could call it a Dutch Barge

(edit, added a picture of Skutsje's racing)

[SeaSpark]

RCardozo,

I could be interesting for you to contact "Stamboek Ronde en Platbodemjachten" (register of round and flat bottomed yachts) They maintain a list of (almost) every traditional sailing vessel still afloat http://www.ssrp.nl/schepenlijst.asp and their goal is to keep them afloat. I am sure they will be pleased to hear about their "lost boat" from the US and will have tons of information about how to preserve her.

Email:

http://www.ssrp.nl/contact.asp?a=&ti=contact%20met%20het%20secretariaat%20van%20de%20SSRP&tc=email

[RCardozo]

I will contact them. The boat is on the list. It is named Morgenster which is morningstar in Dutch. Technically it is a Gronigen Tjalk and may well be a zeet Tjalk. From what I can tell the Dutch have barge names like the Eskimos name snowflakes. Anyway I love the boats. Thanks for the tip. I frequently need advice and any Dutch person who knows anything I would like to keep in contact with.

[Pierre R]

I am having a little bit of difficulty understanding this thread unless aesthetics make up a substantial portion of the so called practical decision.

At least here in the USA, the house boat beats the Erie canal boats in terms of overall cost and liveability. Low powered house boats can deliver the same economy and seaworthness that is in these discussions. What they cannot deliver is something that is very pleasing to the eyes. Let's face it, with house boats they simply forgot to put the wheel on them and tow them to a MH park.

I find a canal boat very pleasing to the eyes in comparison to a low end house boat. I would rather look at a Dutch barge or canal boat any day than a 16' X 60' Somerset house boat. In terms of liveability and useability, the house boat is king over the canal boats.

So, how much of the decisions here is the simple fact that you just cannot bring youselves to living is something as plug ugly as a house boat. Aesthetics for me is certainly a huge driving force and the only reason that I would consider a Dutch barge over a good ol house boat.

[Greenseas2]

Excellent input gentlemen and the photos are magnificent. In getting back to the intent of the original discussion, the thrust was to develope an inexpensive Dutch style river barge. Such as vessel might be valuable in pemitting those people who are renters, seniors (baby boomer generation is huge) and perpetual travelers/cruisers to have all of the comforts of home while traveling the ICW's, lakes and rivers of the US. Certainly all of your input is very valuable to those looking for a vessel design to fulfill live aboard crusing desires. In essence, the answer is "yes" to the boxy design as boxy translates into easily built. The Dutch Barge type pilothouse is the pilothouse aft on most commercial Dutch river barges that is somewhat of a green house with 360 vision with seating for several people and a table. As a matter of fact, the design is so boxy that when you wish to stop cruisng, you could easily jack up the vessel, put it on a foundation on a small piece of property, and have a nice little cottage. Ideal for coastwise areas subject to hurricane storm surges. Just being faceious of course, but it illustrates the idea of a flat bottomed vessel, plumb sides and bow with a low power requirements and long range. Think economy in construction, economy of operation and spacious accommodations mostly out of the local furniture store and you have the picture. Having sufficient electrical generation capabilities is also important in staying away from high marina slip fees. The market is definitely there is the US for such a vessel and with your combined experience with Dutch vessels and solid input, a good design could be had. The Durch river barges seem to offer the most workable interior volume and economy of operation of any vessel design. As a side note, I'm also of Dutch ancestry.

[Greenseas2]

Hi Pierre,
Take a look at the numerous houseboats on Yachtworld.com and you'll see one very noticeable factor. Almost all are gas guzzlers and far from being economically operated. They are also high sided and subject to being affected by high winds. One reason for concentrating on Dutch river barge designs is that for the large amount of space, the vessel has a relatively low profile. Also, most houseboats have a very wide hull to counter the high profile and heeling moment (high meticentric height) and are really not great long distance river cruisers. This fact is born out by the high concentration of houseboats on the lakes of Tennessee, Kentucky, Nevada and other states rather than on rivers. They, in fact do have a lot of room; however, one distasteful aspect to their design is that at least a third of the available space is dedicted to the "master stateroom" (as if it was a real stateroom) In cruising, I like to offer my cruising friends the same quality of sleeping accommodations as I have rather than a convertable dinette. To do otherwise would be rude indeed. Dutch barges are more aesthetically pleasing and can be designed with accommodations for at least two couples in comfort without using other furniture in lieu of a comfortable cabin, albeit, maybe smaller. As may be seen, I have an intense dislike of houseboats, even the more luxurious ones that can cost well over a half million dollars. (travel trailers on a floating platform)

[Pierre R]

The original intent was for an inland waters Dutch style barge for cruisng the waters of the US Intracoastal Waterway and rivers. Also, the intention was to develop a long range crusing home for full time live aboards that would be both economical to build and operate. Back to this point for the moment.

I really like the "looks" of a Dutch Barge but after cruising extensively on the eastern half of the USA I am loath to settle on anything right now. You might say that I am in a state of flux as to what I really want. A couple of years ago the Dutch Barge would have been perfect.

Some of the potential drawbacks for me: There are many many places along the ICW/River systems where the waterways are in miles wide and not yards. There are also many places where straight stretches will allow waves to build up with the winds from that direction. Add to this many windy days in the fall, spring and winter months combined with tides and you have many days even on these so called protected waters where moving is very uncomfortable in a flat bottom round chine boat.

Now we add in crab pots and twisty approaches to many gunkholes that I want to visit and now I want visibility and maneuverability. Pilot houses near the rear or center of a long boat would not be my idea of the perfect layout in these situations. To be honest, pilot houses near the bows and/or fly bridges look stupid on a Dutch Barge in my opinion.

The size of boat that I want seems to be shrinking while the utility, maneuverability and usuability is gaining big ground over creature comforts.

I certainly think that a Dutch Barge makes good sense for many people who want to liveaboard and travel the ICW. It depends on what you want to do, your lifestyle and where you want to go. The Dutch Barge makes a lot more sense than the average go-fast cruiser or express/cruiser from one of the major low end US boat manufactuers and is a damn sight better on the eyes.

[Pierre R]

Greenseas2, I would agree with you that the market is definitely there for a Dutch Barge of low cost in the USA. The baby boomer generation will generate much demand for this type of vessel over the next 20 years of so.

It's my opinion that one of the major manufacturers will jump on this band wagon before too long. The rage right now is for trawlers and away from express cruisers but that is more of a high end market. The low end market is still into aquisition of older boats but the prusuit of older boats is now creating a shortage of good low cost economical cruisers in the marketplace. Over the next 10 years the market will have to move to low cost cruisers and the energy costs will point in the direction for which you speak.

[Pierre R]

Hi Pierre,
Take a look at the numerous houseboats on Yachtworld.com and you'll see one very noticeable factor. Almost all are gas guzzlers and far from being economically operated. They are also high sided and subject to being affected by high winds. There is no doubt about it that most house boats on the market are exactly what you say they are but not all.

The prismatic coefficients and many of the A/B ratios out there on house boats are not that much different than a Dutch barge. Reconfigure the drive systems and add thrusters and the picture changes quite a bit.

House boats are very inexpensive in comparison to conventional boats and the manufacture of Dutch barges would addapt nicely to many of the contruction techniques used in houseboats. What you are looking for is cheap construction methods and affordability right. Dutch Barges in the US will become known as "Dutch Barge Style House Boats".

I do not think that you will find that many people who are interested in one off contruction in comparison to buying such an animal cheaply from a boat dealer.

The reason that there are not as many houseboats in the river systems as there are on the reserviors is simple. There are many more marinas on the reserviors and lakes than on the rivers. Rivers are subject to wide fluctuations in levels and therefore greatly complicate marina operations. The Mississippi is a great example. For a river that has much to offer the Mississippi is noticeably lacking in marine facilities because it has one of the highest currents and level fluctions of any river in the US.

[Greenseas2]

I agree with you on the market and it's potential for home type barges as innovation is needed in design to renew public attention. Each day we do a market review as well as units sold at boat shows,. You are right about the down turn.
As far as m,aneuverability of a Dutch style barge goes, I think that is up to the skippers ability more than anything else. I also believe that a commercial version in the US will have a bow thruster to permit maneuvering in gunk holes.

[Greenseas2]

Pierre, I agree with you on most points mentioned; however, I think a one off design would be a start into the market ahead of the big guys. Done right, this is the way it might work. First, put a lot of effort into building a quality first vessel. Then take it to the major east coats boat show and accept building orders for others on a pay as the vessel is built basis. Not only would the first off be a sales tool, but the mechanics of building follow on boats plus the learning experience for necessary changes would be in place. Building either the dutch style barge or UK wide beam would require little "manufacturing" space if only one vessel at a time is built on a custom order basis. Subcontract the fit out to your own specifications. It would be an excellent business start for someone. Personally, I'm a little to far on the side of being a "crispy critter" (senior citizen) to take on a project of this sort, but would be happy to assist.

[yipster]

on the other hand i find europe misses the usa style houseboats (http://www.buyahouseboat.net/index.html)

[SAQuestor]

on the other hand i find europe misses the usa style houseboats (http://www.buyahouseboat.net/index.html)

And aren't you quite happy that is so:!: :eek:

[Pierre R]

Greenseas2 if I were going to do that I would likely build in Aluminum as this would be the prefered building medium for large flatter sections. I would ditch the fan tail in favor of a very useful cockpit/ swim platform/ garage for toys and easy access to the water. LOA would be about 48' and the beam would be around 12'-13' I would try to keep the displacement around 20k

I would go with both stern and bow thrusters and an engine of moderate Hp, say an 80hp John Deere. I would consider a high volume low speed jet to get the draft under 2'. The interior would likely be done in cypress/white formica.

Electrical would consist of large cage 250 amp alternator, Large house bank, 3500 W inverter, solar panels, Reverse/AC, combo water heater,windlass and propane stove. AC would be by 30 amp shore power or inverter

[MarkC]

Yipster wrote:

on the other hand i find europe misses the usa style houseboats


But these house-boats (below) on the German island Rugen are the 'best' I have even seen. More 'house' than boat - probably a 'boaty-house'!

Can read about them (in German) in Mare magazine - no. 34 'Bau ohne Grund'
http://www.mare.de/mare/hefte/beitrag-aufm.php?id=650&&heftnummer=34

[SeaSpark]

The "dutch barge" definition is even more stretchable than i imagined.

[Greenseas2]

I'm not one for huge, and expensive, electric power plants on any boat, especially one where the criteria is for long distance cruising. I sincerely believe that up front planning for a power budget is necessary Such economical considerations such as having all onboard lights (including nav lights) being LEDs, (new multiple LED bulbs fit in the old 12 volt light bulb sockets with no problem) Sibir refrigerator/freezer that uses kerosene and other such items that dramatically reduce electric load requirements. Bow thrusters are something of a personal want rather than absolutely necessity, but I would insure that the boat has a large barn door rudder and maybe even flanking rudders for maneuvering with astern propulsion. The 80hp engine is about right for a 45 to 48 foot barge. I also think that the average long distance cruiser doesn't want a long list of complex systems to deal with. The simpler, the better.

Previously mentioned was that many European barges have round chines. Personally, for a long distances cruising barge on inland waters, hard chines may be an advantage and also lower construction costs and time quite a bit.

Re the pictured houseboats i Germany. I'd hate to try to cruise one of these in a chop. Envisioned is rapid disinegration underway.....not a pleasant thought. Even short distance cruisers, they're not.

Good thoughts and input by all.

[Greenseas2]

Hi Sea Spark, Sometimes the definition of a Dutch Barge sort of drifts in and out like the tide. While not directly affiliated with the thrust of building and operating an economical vessel that somewhat looks and acts like a Dutch barge to some degree, the input is interesting. LOL

[yipster]

the pictured houseboats i Germany. I'd hate to try to cruise one of these
nice -probably concrete- waterfronts but dont think they cruize at all,
not that i think houseboats must plane 20 knt on big mercruisers,
but a boat needs bow and engine, than, even better, think cats.
interior for the dutch barge against those americans evens out,
maybe its the climate that keeps pilothouse etc indoors here.
ofcourse there is the matter of heritage, style, materials etc
but i myself never had anything against winnibago's eighter.

http://www.noordersoft.com/ travelled around europe in a dutch barge
think thats how the program got born, they now chart the mekong

[SeaSpark]

I'm not one for huge, and expensive, electric power plants on any boat, especially one where the criteria is for long distance cruising. I sincerely believe that up front planning for a power budget is necessary Such economical considerations such as having all onboard lights (including nav lights) being LEDs, (new multiple LED bulbs fit in the old 12 volt light bulb sockets with no problem) Sibir refrigerator/freezer that uses kerosene and other such items that dramatically reduce electric load requirements. Bow thrusters are something of a personal want rather than absolutely necessity, but I would insure that the boat has a large barn door rudder and maybe even flanking rudders for maneuvering with astern propulsion. The 80hp engine is about right for a 45 to 48 foot barge. I also think that the average long distance cruiser doesn't want a long list of complex systems to deal with. The simpler, the better.

Could not agree more with all of the above.

A freezer that runs on the same fuel as the stove is a big plus. When you can live without a freezing fridge an electric cooler is optional.

It is more fun to learn how to manoeuvre your boat than to wrestle with systems that are not reliable or horribly expensive like bow thrusters.

[SeaSpark]

A schouw (or scow) type of vessel has many of the properties looked for, the blunt front (main feature of a schouw) gives lots of interior volume. It has only two chines per side and a flat bottom. Originally these boats were build in wood.

[Greenseas2]

The scow hull is a great idea as it looks as if the hull design is efficient and easily driven with low power. Also, it looks as if it has substantial interior volume and could easoly be equipped with a deck and accommodations for ecopnomical cruising. With most peopl;e who want a live aboard barge to cruise with, speed won't be a big issue, but comfort and range will.

[Pierre R]

It is more fun to learn how to manoeuvre your boat than to wrestle with systems that are not reliable or horribly expensive like bow thrusters.When it comes to long water line low powered shallow depth vessels there are two opinions on the use of bow thrusters. Those who have had a bow thruster and those who have not.

For years I had the same opinion on bow thrusters until I installed one so that my aging parents could operate the boat. I installed it myself for under $1,500 and have not had a bit of trouble with it.

My boat is 10,000 lb and only 18hp, has a keel under the aft section but not the front and I have no kick in reverse to help with backing and filling. My engine is mounted level and the boat has a controllable pitch propeller.

With a bow thruster there is no need for a line tender as you can move the boat straight sideways up to the dock and keep it there until the sole occupant of the boat can secure lines. Best damn device ever invented for single hand work in marinas and other thight places.

One situation I use to dread is waiting for a bridge in a tight section with a current and wind into the bridge with other boats trying to hold position. That situation is no longer a dread.

I do not have a generator and frankly don't like them but I have changed my tune on bow thrusters for certain kinds of boat configurations.

[Greenseas2]

Flanking rudders are rudders mounted in front of the propeller(s) and used to maneuver the boat when using astern propulsion. I can appreciate the close proximity maneuvering at draw bridges with lots of other boats doing the same thing. When going up a densely populated area of the West palm Beach ICW with a 200 foot barge and single screw tug, caution is indeed needed at bridges, especially with the current behind you. Draw bridges have to open for commercial traffic and all of the private boaters try to jam in front of you. Use of flanking rudders is invaluable in holding position in this circumstance. Any Dutch barge or wide beam narrowboat should be built with flanking rudders. In static water, the flanking rudders will permit you to maneuver you barge 360 degrees almost on it's own axis by using the forward steering rudder when moving ahead and the flanking rudders when moving astern. No additional motors or thrusters are needed. Something less to break.

[Pierre R]

I assume that there is some protection around these flanking rudders to protect them from a grounding. I also see at least two more stuffing boxes and related linkage to connect them to the steering station. That does not sound like less maintenance and less cost to me.

[Greenseas2]

Flanking rudders generally don't protrude from the bottom of the boat and a single hydraulic ram is all that is needed to move two or more of them. They're standard on both large and small towboats that travel all rivers of the US. They're very effective, even with tows of a quarter of a mile long. Two flanking rudders should suffice for a Dutch style barge. Both towboats and their tow are flat bottom and ground on sand bars more times than the industry would like to admit, but with no damage to flanking rudders. In Tennessee, there was recently a 50 foot shallow draft steel houseboat built with flanking rudders. An article was written in one of the trade journals about it being equal to or superior to normally expensive thrusters. Thrusters can easily ingest debris and jam up which requires an expensive haul out and probable repair to the blades being that the prop blades are internal in the thruster tube. If a flanking rudder is damaged, a diver can usually fix the damage in short order. Common sense says that both systems have their own unique qualities and uses. Certainly large and deep draft ships are equipped with thrusters, but the world of shallow draft flat bottom commercial vessels relies more on flanking rudders as the preferred equipment for close proximity maneuvering.

Recently on yachtworld.com, I have seen 25 foot boats equipped with thrusters. Don't know if I would want to go out with the owner that needs a thruster on that size boat:-)

[Pierre R]

Boy, where to start. You have partially convinced me that flanking rudders are a good viable alternative. I did an internet search on flanking rudders to visualize exactly what they were.

I am having trouble visualizing a Dutch Barge with a two foot draft without rudders protruding from the bottom of the boat. I can visualize them not protruding below the lowest point of draft but that would mean a swim platform like stern to handle three rudders and a propeller. I am not opposed to that as I like cockpits.

I can certainly understand flanking rudders over a bow thruster for a tow boat. I think that is a little obvious with their power and hull configuations. As far as thrusters go, most that I know of have a shear pin in the propeller. jaming will shear the pin. Since they are below the water line they generally don't suck in debris that is floating.

I guess it would be alright to ride with me since my boat is 26' not 25'. I have not owned a twin engine nor have I owned a gasolene boat over 10' in length. http://groups.msn.com/TrawlerMV/piouspuffin.msnw

[Greenseas2]

I believe that most Dutch Style barge draw a little more than 2 feet. Most have skeg protected props and rudders and fitting flanking rudders would be no problem. Shallow draft concerning barges might be in the neighborhood of less than 4 or 5 feet at the extreme for a 50 to 60 footer. I recently ran a small 119 foot passenger freighter that was bought for use on the shallow Bahama Bank that had flanking rudders. Neat boat with 6 passenger cabins, full width temperature controlled bridge, gallet, two dining areas and two huge crew rooms and 40 foot cargo deck. The small ship drew 5 feet burdened and was flat bottom and was built in Alaska from which she traveled to the Caribbean and Florida. At any rate, we're beginning to be able to develop an inexpensive 48 foot by 10 foot vessel with Dutch barge aesthetics and economical long distance cruising capabilities from the great input to this thread. Within a few weeks we should at least have a narrative description followed by drawing and perhaps a model. Again, the primary goal is economy and simplicity of design, construction and use.

[Pierre R]

Can we keep the draft under 3' and the hight from the bottom of the keel to the top of the pilothouse under 15'. Reason being is bridge clearance to haul down the highways. I would not mind building a suitable trailer and loading it onto a Ro-Ro boat for Europe.

I would actually prefer something in the 11' to 12' beam which is still a 4:1 ratio. Is there some reason to stick with 10'. Highways don't require anything special until over 12'

[SamSam]

Flanking rudders are rudders mounted in front of the propeller(s) and used to maneuver the boat when using astern propulsion.

Do flanking rudders operate along with the regular rudders and turn they same way or do they operate independently?

[SeaSpark]

Illustration and some text on flanking rudders:

http://website.lineone.net/~alanann/towruddr.htm

Would not mind hearing more about them.

When it comes to long water line low powered shallow depth vessels there are two opinions on the use of bow thrusters. Those who have had a bow thruster and those who have not.

I sailed many different boats, some with a bow thruster. My latest experience was in Croatia with a hired 45ft boat. The control handle for the thruster was kicked of by some previous crew and they would not let us leave without a new handle (total delay 2.5 hours). After leaving the dock and testing the boats maneuverability i discovered the handle was installed counter intuitive :) (quick fix) I can imagine charter companies install bow thrusters on their yachts but everytime i used it i felt like cheating.

Once, a long time ago, i sailed with an ex towboat captain devoting his time to old flatbottomed sailing craft. On a return trip from Denmark where he saved one from fishing stones and only 1.5 of the 4 historical cylinders working he asked me to hoist a foresail when the boat was in a seemingly hopeless position in the buzzy harbor. The boat quickly moved out of trouble. The 10 minutes before this happened i was wondering why he send me to the fore deck. Perhaps a small mast on the "dutch barge" is not a bad idea.

edit: after reading the last part of this message a realized a bow thruster could have done the same :)

[colinstone]

Pierre R - we have a 1m draft and approx 3.4m airdraft with the wheel house up - so just over 14ft in all and we fit on the highways - http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/delivery/page/image7.html
With the wheelhouse lowered airdraft is 7ft 6 inc/2.3m and we fit under some fairly low bridges - http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/delivery/page/image73.html
The stem - highest point - just touched the bridge beams.
Flanking rudders sound intriguing, and my vessel's design should be able to incorporate them quite easily under the stern deadwood.
We handle just fine with a large NACA profile rudder operating 70-0-70. A schilling rudder was considered but not fitted. Steerage way is maintained to almost imperceptible speed and bow swing can be controlled very easily with judicious use of rudder and throttle. Passing through all the locks going up the Thames was not a problem. I would however fit end plates onto the rudder to improve response. Also so far operating without a bowthruster installed, but one will be - 3 phase 5.5kw motor powered off genset.

[Greenseas2]

As previously mentioned, the flanking rudders are installed forward of the prop and act separately from the main navigation rudder. Most vessels that I have operated with navigation and flanking rudders have had joy stick control with the flanking rudder handle being above and longer than the joy stick for the main rudder. Flanking rudders as well as main rudder have their own separate hydraulic rams for independent operation. The reverse thrust of the propeller pushes water against the flanking rudders and causes the stern to move opposite of the rudder position. When the vessel is moving ahead under enertia alone with engine in neutral, you can put the flanking rudders hard over, put the engine in reverse and walk the boat side ways. Using flanking rudders requires a little practice to master but almost anyone can do it. Nice part is that there is no power requirement from the generator and no separate engine require as in large vessel thrusters.

[Pierre R]

Colinstone, sounds intriguing. That is kind of what I had in mind.

My biggest problem is wanting to go into gunkholes where there is less water than draft. There are many places along the US ICW and river system with less than one meter of water. Right now I use a hillbilly depth sounder (one inch PVC plastic pipe marked in feet submerged at the bow and held in place with a clamp) When the PVC hits bottom its time to hit reverse.

[Pierre R]

I can imagine charter companies install bow thrusters on their yachts but everytime i used it i felt like cheating.
Yup, I feel like I am cheating but my wife is not on pins and needles wondering if things will be okay in dicey situations. I will take cheating over a back set captain any day of the week.

My present boat would not be a candidate for flanking rudders I am sorry to say or I might just try them.

[ms.dageraad]

hai everyone,

I read most of your discussion today. I'm a naval architect living in Holland at a barge of 45m. That is 150 ft for the old fashined thinkers. It is built in 1913.
The reason why a barge is not seaworthy is its construction. It is built as light as possible to be able to carry as much load as possible. My ship is literally breathing when We are sailing in waves of 60 cm-1m. When I would weld it closed at the top it would be much better, but the frames are still very light. Angled irons 65x65x6.5mm. riveted, so the strong side of the frames is at the shell. A new build barge could be easily made stronger.

I actually designed a working boat for a nature guarding society. there are 2 built. One of 18 m and 1 of 20m.It draws only 70 cm. (2'4") goes 15 km with only 80 ps. It has a scow-like hull. She goes very easily. In very shallow canals only 1 m wider then the boat it sucks less water from the shores then an outboard powered boat of 4,5 m. I did my best to design it, but I was very surprised when she really went trough the water. She makes almost no waves. The builder made a fish-shaped rudder. I didn't agree with it, but he was stubborn. And it is really good. She turns on the spot. Without a bow-thruster. She operates in very restricted waters, so with side-wind you need some sort of bow-rudder. We also added spud-poles. Very nice for manoeuvring and anchoring.
I sketched some recreational versions of it. It is in AutoCAD. I'm new at this forum, so I don't know how to post a sketch. But I warn you. It's a workboat and the recreational version still looks like one. But its appealing to me.

Groet,
Peter

[FAST FRED]

I am aboard a 50 ft USN utility boat , that has a different style of"backing rudder".

In front of the prop is what looks like a megaphone , geared to turn with the rudder. The wide end faces the prop so in backing the flow is accelerated by the taper.

Don't know a "proper" name for this . but it does work at mostly canceling the prop walking on reverse IF the rudder is put over the right way.

I guess this was useful in her past life as a utility or crew boat.

Works fine as a cruiser, although it might cause some drag.

FF

[colinstone]

Peter,

Concur - old barges have very small frames. My new 22m euroships luxemotor has 100x80x6/10mm frames and many bottom frames are 300x80x6/10, all at 500mm spacing. Hull bottom and chines are 10mm plate, 6mm plate elsewhere. Bare steel hull is 39 tonnes. She is really strong and stiff and was great crossing the channel. We make no wash/waves on rivers/canals at speeds up to 6kts - the 30-40ft tupperware cruisers at 5 knots make much more wash.

Tot zeins,

Colin

[Greenseas2]

Euroship does build a beautiful vessel, but the big problem is that the compond curves preclude such a design being easy to build for the layman or semi-professional shiop builder. The thrust of the thread is to define a Dutch style barge that has long range ecomonical cruise capability and is easily constructed of various materials other than just steel. In part, this is not only to provide folks of modest means to build their own aesthetc crusing homes, but also to solve, in part housing problems near major metropolitan areas where average workers can't afford dwellings. The Dutch style barge has proven itself as an adequate dwelling/cruising vessel throughout Europe and would be readily adaptable to US inland waterways. Too, the widebeam narrowboat designs may be even more adaptable to inland waterways rather than the significantly larger Dutch style barges.

As a design preference, previously stated plumb bow, plumb sides and semicounter stern would rid the design of compound curves, yet create an easily pushed and stable hull of approximately 45-48 feet long with a beam of 10 or 12 feet. Low power in the 65 to 80 hp range wouuld be sufficient along with with navigation and flanking rudders for maneuverability. Thoughts on reduced electric power budgeting and euipment is valuable to the effort. A rather boxish hull could be enhanced with a shear line created by tapering the bulwarks from a high bow bulwark donward to midships and a rather high tumblehome bulwark from the tapered from the stern forward to midships. (optical illusion). With this construction, the vessel would laso have shallow draft, yet reasonable stability and be able to be built from steel, wood/epoxy strip plank, slab plywood/epoxy or even sheets of 4' x 8' PVC plank that are now being used to build bulkheads on boats rather than an expensive fiberglass lay up. At any rate, with no compouind curves to work with, simple construction can be done by relatively unskilled people and with few tools.
Thoughts and input?

[ms.dageraad]

A dutch barge hull could be built in concrete / ferro-cement. The weight will be very usefull. It is cheap, but it will be a lot of work. The hulls of euroship are built in China and delivered in Holland for around 70.000 euro's. Not really cheap, but you have a new ship and that is good when you have to sell it someday.

[Greenseas2]

While early powered Dutch style Barges were derived from sailing vessels, I would hesitate to put a sail the foreward part of the barge that is operated by neophytes primarily because most crews aren't coordinated enough to handle a larger vessel running in both the power and sailing mode. In doing a lot of single hand crusing sans autopilot, leaving the helm and running all of the way forward to douse a sail when the wind became too strong is out of the question. Too, we are talking about a flat bottom boat built by amateur craftsmen in most cases. (stability factor)

Putting a foldable mast and working boom forward similar to the ones found on the 22 foot Com-pac Horizon cat boats might be useful in putting a dinghy overboard, mounting a radar or swinging a long gang plank ashore along a canal while still being able to lower it for bridges. (as on Clyde Puffers in the UK) On US waterways, the lowest fixed bridges to be able to navigate under is 12 feet on the Champlain Canal in New York State. Also, it is common practice on commercial towboats to place a small "swing light" that can only be seen from the bridge on the back side of the mast so the skipper can see what the position of the bow is in reduced visibility. While not necessary if you tie up or anchor at night, a swing light is a convenient nav aid. It can't be seen by anyone other than the helmsman. (very low power)

[colinstone]

Concur EuroShipServices build beautiful ships - I have one, but they are not difficult for an amateur to put together - and indeed many have been built at home in the garden - look at the phots at the ESS site. The plates are all developed surfaces and they have some compound curvature. But the designer has been extremely cunning. The curvature is all within the stretch limits for steel and does not require anything other than a couple of pulling hoists. The curved areas are designed to be welded in a particular sequence and doing so stretches the steel to achieve the compound curvature. On my own hull, hoists, pullers and blocks were used far less than a hull built with flat sides and a bluff bow. For a simple hard chine construction, the ESS hull also has extremely good hull hydrostatics and is very close to an original 1920s luxemotor.

As for rudders - why not just fit a "kitchen" rudder. One rudder would then do the same as 1 nav and 2 flanking.
Fast Fred - sounds like a kitchen rudder that is actually behind the prop???

[Greenseas2]

While Euroships may have great DYI kits, they are still expensive to buy and to ship to the US, then also the cost to transport to the building site. Local materials can bought as they are afforded. What we're looking for is a simple hull form for those who just plainly can't afford the cost of a MIG welder, the kit and the shipping and surface transportation costs. Affordability is also why we stepped down from Dutch Style Barge to widebeam narrow boats in the design effort.

[Pierre R]

I think Michael Kasten has some good looking boats that kind of fit what I have in mind here http://www.kastenmarine.com/quinn.htm

and here http://www.kastenmarine.com/powercat.htm

[Greenseas2]

You are 100% right Pierre, Michael Kasten and a plethora of other designers specialize in wooden boat construction with high results to their work. Wood boats built 70 and 80 years ago are still cruising as well as commercial vessels from 100 years ago, thus supporting the argument for wood as a medium for barge construction.

[yipster]

and here http://www.kastenmarine.com/powercat.htm
thanks for the pointer and allthough i dont like wooden shoes, i do think Michael Kasten's "twee schoenen" is a cunning and clever concept

[Greenseas2]

I checked out Michael Kastens designs last night and he does have several sizes that would fit the basic description that we're work towards. Some even resemble river barges to a degree and the layouts of the interiors are good also. AQt the very least, some good ideas can be had from his designs.

[MarkC]

Sea Spark provided this great link - a list and definitions of traditional 'Dutch' sailing/fishing/freighting types:

http://www.ssrp.nl/schepenlijst.asp

Thanks for that link - awesome site.

[bransonboats]

Why not ask your local plasma profiling company to cut a kit for you? Steel prices roughly the same everywhere (the lowest cost boat building material?).

Having built steel boats by hand and from kits there is no comparison in speed of building. An important consumable when boat building is enthusiasm. It may get expended quickly along with frustration and slow progress.

Certainly you have to pay for having a kit cut by C.N.C plasma. But to loft and cut a shapely Dutch Barge by paid labour will cost five times as much.

I agree the very simple box like hull will be efficient on labour but the material cost will be the same or higher. A builder would save the profiling cost if nothing was charged for his labour. The profiling cost in the UK for a Dutch Barge is a few thousand dollars. Even with a box type hull the hand cutting will be the expensive option.

The resulting shells will be very different. One built quickly and relatively painlessly, full of curves and sheer, looking very professional, the other possibly boxy?

The builders of both designs then have to spend the same cost on fitting out.
Fitting out is the expensive element of a build. The ratio 1/3rd cost of the shell to 2/3rd fitting out is often mentioned. The 'hand built' saving taken over the entire project at best is a few percent.

When all the work is done, I think the one with the attractive shapely boat will be more satisfied. The saving of a few thousand of dollars will not compensate the other.

We offer D.X.F cutting files for our designs. Other companies do as well so shop around for a design you like. Take these files to a profiling company and get a price. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. But please use computer cut kits! As a builder I cannot think of a single disadvantage.

I believe all steel kit suppliers use developable plating. (If you get a straight edge and place it on a curved plate and revolve it through 360 it will touch the plate along its length at some particular angle). As the plate is bent the resistance is caused solely by the stiffness/thickness of the plate. Compound shaping is definitely not required. Compound requires either stretching the steel or heat shrinking around the perimeter. Generally regarded as a highly skilled craftsman’s job.

If you are interested -but not convinced we can supply D.X.F files for a model kit, a 1-10 scale Dutch barge. This can be assembled using TIG. Although fiddely due to the small size it will go together beautifully!

[Greenseas2]

In particular, your Emily 43 design is what I had in mind, it's a knock out boat and would be an ideal and affordable long range cruiser for inland waterways. I tried to find the interior layout for the emily 43, but without success. I am hoping that she's outfitted with two sleeping cabins, one all of the way forward and the other behind the pilothouse. I have this thing about guests onboard having equal accommodations as owners. (out of respect) One head with shower would be enough as would a combination salon/galley. Dining at the table in the pilothouse. This model would also work well with composite construction.

[bransonboats]

Hello Greenseas2
Glad you liked the Emily design!
The interior is just as you describe and is very popular with Dutch Barge owners. If you look at http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=46637 you can see an Emily 49 fitted out by Will Tricket. Also Sagar Marine builds similar boats with alternative layouts www.sagar-marine.com
Have included a lines plan with floor height marked on if you want to try alternative layouts.

Produced three lengths 43,45 and 49 and about 25 built to date. The design uses a parallel 'V' midsection with only the sheer/ deck rising. The intention was a simple kit build and interior suitable for inland waterways.

Amateurs have built this design although most of our customers are small boatyards. What’s needed is a forklift with lifting beam, chainhoists/ pullers, mig welding plant and typical metalworking handtools. Building can be done outside but restrictions to welding if windy. Average steel building time 890 man hours including grinding weld testing and tank testing. Kit tacked together 300 man-hours

Also I would be interested in getting the message over about how good steel kit boats are. Been thinking of offering one of our designs DXF cutting files to a builder free of charge and getting feedback on an open forum like this about the pros and cons. Will undertake to 'handhold' through the steel build.

[Greenseas2]

In the US, breaking the stigma that "fiberglass boats are best" is going to be hard to break. Given two identical boats, one built in fiberglass and the other in steel, the steel boat would bring a lower price. An education processes is needed badly to promote the use of steel in boats. I also have a business interest in the Branson Dutch barge classes, but will discuss this on your direct e-mail rather than in a forum. At first appraisal, I think there is a fine market for the Durch style barges in the US as well as Euro-style off shore vessels. One could spend a lifetime cruising inland waters in the US and canada.

[colinstone]

Here you go - made in China - hopefully for not a lot of dosh - and transported to France.

[Greenseas2]

It would be nice to see the layout of this boat. In looking at the photo, the Chinese version seems to lose some of the design charm of Dutch barges, plus, I would imagine that the shipping from China could be quite costly. It would take a very small construction cost to offset shipping costs unless the design is assembly line produced and a relatively high number of units shipped simultaneously. The Chinese version looks functional and it would be interestong to know what size engine pushes it.

[colinstone]

"seems to lose some of the design charm of Dutch barges" - understatement of the year!!

Barge is 16.4 metres long, has 2 large sleeping quarters, 1 forward
1 aft, 2 heads, 1 shower, air conditioning in each cabin and central
heating.

I got a quote for a 22m dutch barge last year which I will dig out - but no drawings. Shipping as a deck cargo was not a factor.

[Greenseas2]

Square windows and boxy superstructure aren't exactly the top of the barge design world. Also, you failed to mention shipping cost which IS a major factor in that it also involves costs of getting the barge to and from the ship for loading and launching. These expenses can be quite high and certainly add to the overall cost. I had a 23 foot motorsailer container shipped from the UK to the US and the cost of all shipping functions was close to half of the cost of the boat. Also, you might want to check with importers for Taiwan made pleasure boats and see what the cost of deck shipping is. Don Miller who owns Marine Trader yachts is constantly working to reduce his shipping cost which have risen with fuel prices. I fail to see where having a barge built in China offers any advantage over a domestically fabricated barge except to the Chinese.

[Greenseas2]

I suppose that if I'm criticizing a vessel that there should be objectivity in the criticism. First, the Chinese barge is just that, a flat deck barge with a superstructure. It lacks nice shear lines, bulwarks and tumble home found on Dutch Style Barges and has a squared rather than round stern. Also the windows, (as mentioned before), definitely are not nautical or correspond to the arched topped windows in barges. The squareness of the superstructure is too severe. While the Chinese version appears to have appropriate accommodations, the external appearance leaves much to be desired.

[dick stave]

I would tend to agree. The "Luxemotor Class" are described as high curve micro barges on the website. The Chinese built barge is anything but. Perhaps Mr. Branson could shed some light on the cost of the dxf files for his barges. They most definitely have very attractive lines.

[brian eiland]

Wow, here is a subject I was interested in for a number of years, and just totally missed it....brain was in other spaces.

So I will make a brief entry, so I get updates to new postings, and remember to come back.

Cheers,

[Nabeel]

Hi, This post of mine is very beneficial and informative, however there are some specific facts or information that I require. If anyone can help me in this matter then please send me a private message. Best Regards,

[colinstone]

Greenseas - the chinese barge is just a box and hideous at that. It is clear that parts have been salvaged from the shipyard stores - the kidney hatch on top for example.

Dick - have a look at www.euroshipservices.nl if you are after luxemotors with curves/traditional lines. Mine is regularly mistaken for an original 1920's vessel.

[dick stave]

Thanks, they are really nice.

[wightmage]

Pierre,

I have been looking for an answer to a unique question. I know that Barges like yours worked the North Sea and have to assume that they were built to manage (with effort) the unpredictable seas of that region (understanding that the forscasting capability of that time period was limited)

I need to get a Barge like yours from the Netherlands or UK to America and have found the "shipping it on a transport" option to be way to unacceptable in terms of cost.

There has to be a way to sail it accross "with great care" and taking all the time needed to aviod bad weather and bad seas. The problem I have is that I have seen huge amounts of references and opinion as to the impossibility of this. I would like to find constructive advice on how to accomplish this impossibility. This would be a one time voyage of course. I want to use this in the Great Lakes and ICW.

Does anyone have some constructive info on this?

I know I am inviting flames here but please refrain from that. I know that nothin is impossible. If a 15 year old kid can make the passage in a 25ft yacht (with support) then how could a Sailing Barge make the transit?

Thanks to any who can assist.

Robert

Pierre,
Pay attention. I think Green seas is right. I own a 73' x 17' Dutch Sailing barge powered by a 125 h.p. Detroit 671 diesel. I can do about 7 mph cruising and consume about 1.75 MPG. Draft is 3'. Now my boat has lee boards that can drop to 12' howwever you could add stabilizers on the sides to counter the roll. The advantage of a barge type hull is blockage. The ability to basically have a rectangular cross section which greatly increases livability. It may roll a bit but my boat can handle 6' seas w/ no problem. Remember these boats were in the north sea as cargo boats. the rounded bow gave added bouyancy to keep the deck from being innundated in heavy seas. A v-hull vs. a barge hull are two very different animals. Have you considerd a cat type hull. I think that suits your need.

[Pierre R]

Wightmage when you checked on shipping, what did you consider way to unacceptable costwise? Crossing oceans is way not cheap either.

[wightmage]

Wightmage when you checked on shipping, what did you consider way to unacceptable costwise? Crossing oceans is way not cheap either.

Thanks for getting back to me. At the moment the cost is currently $45000

[Pierre R]

Ah Wightmage you indeed have two different Pierre's. I don't own the lovely 73' Dutch Barge.
Perhaps the other Pierre can add something concrete.

Have you checked here http://www.weshipboats.com/specials.html

Setting a boat up to properly cross an ocean and completing the voyage can easily run $45k

[xarax]

Barges in high seas would be somewhat dicey at best in that they would tend to wring and twist.

Why? One can easily built a quite stiff flat bottom, box shaped hull, if that is really needed. Combined with the anti rolling effect of long, large leeboards, such a craft could, uncomfortably but safely, travel through high seas, too.

[tom28571]

Why? One can easily built a quite stiff flat bottom, box shaped hull, if that is really needed. Combined with the anti rolling effect of long, large leeboards, such a craft could, uncomfortably but safely, travel through high seas, too.

Any old LST vets have anything to say about large flat bottom boats on the open ocean? Depending on leeboards for stability is folly.

[KnottyBuoyz]

Any old LST vets have anything to say about large flat bottom boats on the open ocean?

Yeah. I've been out in the North Atlantic on flat bottom landing barges. Just about the only time in my seagoing life that I truly feared for my life. Never again!

[xarax]

Yeah. I've been out in the North Atlantic on flat bottom landing barges. Just about the only time in my seagoing life that I truly feared for my life. Never again!
Was it because of excessive rolling, wave pounding on the flat bottom, water coming inside, or what?

[KnottyBuoyz]

Was it because of excessive rolling, wave pounding on the flat bottom, water coming inside, or what?

Yup all of that and more. Biggest problem was securing loads so they wouldn't break loose. The motion of a flat bottom barg is a very quick roll and lots of slamming. We had a small generator break loose (2x10,000lb straps) and crush the engineers leg. IMHO the only place for those kind of boats on the ocean are as artificial reefs. Although they were good for painting the side of the ships. They hold multiple lifts of scaffold really well (as long as it's calm).

I remember the Captain having a chat with the Regional Dir of Ops about towing the LCM's. The Cap'n asked what happens if she turns turtle while under tow? The DoO said: "Cut the tow line and let her go"!

[xarax]

...what happens if she turns turtle...

The very quick rolling motion of a flat bottom barge is very uncomfortable for the crew, that is for sure, and conveys the feeling of an imminent capsize, but is it really dangerous? I mean, are there reported incidents of self motoring barges that turned turtle in high seas ? The barge s bottom tends to follow the contour of the waves, but does the induced excessive rolling present a real danger of capsizing?

[KnottyBuoyz]

The very quick rolling motion of a flat bottom barge is very uncomfortable for the crew, that is for sure, and conveys the feeling of an imminent capsize, but is it really dangerous? I mean, are there reported incidents of self motoring barges that turned turtle in high seas ? The barge s bottom tends to follow the contour of the waves, but does the induced excessive rolling present a real danger of capsizing?
It's not likely it'll ever happen as I have no intention to try to find out. Might want to contact your insurance underwriter to see if they'll cover a North Atlantic passage.

[ms.dageraad]

Robert:

Please check if the construction of your boat is strong enough for off-shore cruising. My own barge is really 'panting' in only 1 m waves. It is meant for in-shore and river-cruising.

Shipping can be a possability when your boat is shipped as extra cargo at a large barge or off-shore construction, which is shipped anyway. You can ask for it at Jumbo-shipping, Dockwise, Heerema, Smit Holland, Wijsmuller etc. The chinese built barges (to dutch design) are shipped in the hold of large chinese built cargoships, which are shipped as cargo at a large sea-going barge. The barge-yacht is a tiny mouse in the hold of such a larche hull.

Lea-boards can be very dangerous in large seas. They probably will snap off (2 - 4 inches of wood!). And the snapped of part can easily damage the hull.

Everything is possible. Columbus discovered Amerika in a ship very unseaworthy to today's standard. But do you want to risk your life and money? I think you better search for a possibility to built your barge-yacht in your neighbourhood. A design for it is to get even by e-mail!

Good luck!

Groet,
Peter Engel
ms. Dageraad
Holland

[brian eiland]

If the superstructure is not too high, then you might consider what they term Ro-Ro (roll-on, roll-off). This is the method utilized for shipping cars, farm tractors, military vehicles, etc. It is not containerized.

I shipped a 37 foot sailing catamaran from France by this means, and it sat on a 'flat rack' (no-sided 40 foot container rack) supported under its wing deck section. They put temp wheels under the flat rack and roll it onto and off the ship. Certain decks of the ship have more head clearance than others.

With the USA economy headed where I think it is, you may be finding more available space in the near future

[wightmage]

Hi All,

Thanks for the input. I dont want to risk life, limb or the boat at all. I was just shocked that I can but a 76ft Sailing Tajlk in good shap for £50k that is big enough to live on. It is currenty working costal as a Charter in the Netherlands. Upon checking what it would cost to get it to the states I have been getting $25k to $45k quotes back. Thats a heck of a premium to pay for the transport.

If I could get it over then it would be heaven to use on the Great Lake, Inland Waterways and river systems. To be honest its uniqueness would allow me to potentialy chater and get a good income out of it. Its about investment really I guess.

One can dream right?

The other option that has presented itself is I found a 1950's East German 86' North Sea Trawler for £37k that has had 98% of the live aboard conversion work done for living space. She is in good seaworthy shape yet you face a 45 liter an hour fuel consumption even though she carries 22 tons of fuel. She could make the trip with some refit and care. The down side there is that her mooring and cruising options are limited with a draft of 9'.

Dont you hate having to make choices?

Look nobody ever accused me of wanting to do easy things in life... :-)

Thanks for the input up to now.

[colinstone]

A 76ft Sailing Tajlk in good shape for £50k.
I've looked at a couple of these at a little more - say £80k - and superficially yes. But lots of nasties lurking below the paint - particularly rust lifting bands and hull plates in way of rivets. I would almost guarantee that vessel that cheap will have hull steel bordering on thin - 4mm max - and will need replating almost throughout like this 1920's luxemotor - http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/oxcruisers/page/image6.html

[mo´s]

dear bd members,

my wife and me are looking for a cruising barge too, for living afloat when lifes evening will start. studying lot´s of boat layouts we decided to plan our own one.

some facts:

- 2 persons + dog

- no guest cabin

- max space

- open cockpit + wheelhouse

- eurpopean waterways + coastel cruising on calm days ( we can wait)

- no longer than 49 feet (we need another license for larger boats)

- simple and unexpencive construction

- sailaway steel version with mounted engine and completely painted.
technic and interieur will be installed by ourself.


here´s the latest version (i´m still working on it). it may be an input for you.

best wishes tom

ps. constructive critic is welcome

[Willallison]

Tom,
I'd be interested to hear your thinking behind the "bow" shape of the model you've pictured. It appears to be somewhat reminiscent of a catamaran hullform, but with a bridgedeck that makes permanent contact with the water. Does it develop into a more conventional flat-bottomed craft? Either way, why not simply have the more usual 'punt' front end?

Good looking boat BTW...

Oh - and welcome to the forums...:D

[mo´s]

will,

thanks for your welcome. i try to explain, because my english isn´t the best at all.
there are three reasons for modelling the bow like this.

- better stability in running straight

- space for mounting (a) bow thruster (s)

- space for water tanks. i want to build a closed tanksystem with four
tanks, one in each corner of the boat.

when the floorplan is finished i´ll place it here for better understanding.

tom

[brian eiland]

Colibri

Now I could live on something like this....maybe even a smaller version. I do like the sunny/lounging deck up topsides.

Go to their website.....http://www.bargecolibri.com/index.php (http://www.bargecolibri.com/index.php).....and have a look at the photo album

[colinstone]

Brian,

Here is mine. Somewhat smaller at 22m/72ft x 4.85m/15.5ft.

http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/delivery/Images/Aug05-180.jpg

Colin Stone
www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk

[KnottyBuoyz]

Brian,

Here is mine. Somewhat smaller at 22m/72ft x 4.85m/15.5ft.

Colin Stone
www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk (http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk)
Kei is an absolutely amazing looking ship Colin. She'd be right at home on this side of the pond on any one of the NA canals! Of all the boats to lust over for our retirement livaboard, Kei would be the one! I fear she'd be well beyond our means though! It actually surprises me that there aren't any here already. Too many tin house boats I'm afraid.

[brian eiland]

Colin Stone
www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk
That's quite a web reference you have there. Regrettable I don't have more time to review it at the moment.

I also have a supreme design I saved, that is hiding around somewhere. I will post it when I find it


Steel boat market. In the US, breaking the stigma that "fiberglass boats are best" is going to be hard to break. Given two identical boats, one built in fiberglass and the other in steel, the steel boat would bring a lower price. An education processes is needed badly to promote the use of steel in boats.

I'm not so convinced of this. I think a lot of the potential clients for this style vessel would wecome the ruggedness of steel construction. And in a 'full-displacement' design such as these, one could use thicker bottom plating, thus less framing (less welding & more interior volume), as it is not required to be of a lighter construction to maximize freight carrying capability.

[colinstone]

......would wecome the ruggedness of steel construction.

I misjudged a corner on the River Thames - basically was not paying attention - and we smashed sideways into the quarter a moored waterway maintenance barge at some speed - 3/4kts probably. Hit just fwd of midships and bounced off. Mrs S, not onboard at the time, only noticed a slight scuff on the paint when the river was higher in Jan/Feb!!! A plastic hull would have been seriously damaged/holed.

[brian eiland]

Somehow I remember seeing some pictures of a barge that Sir Richard Branson once keep (as an unofficial office or small escape I believe). So as I tried to 'google it' and I ran into these sites:

http://www.ecoboot.nl/artikelen/WeblogTiesFloatingCommunities.html.php

http://blog.thomasdolby.com/?p=311
on a canal barge in Little Venice. I dug around a bit and found this pic of it. It was a few boats down from where Richard Branson used to live.

http://perkins-sabre.com/PR/News/OLD-Index-2005.cfm
June 2005 - Barge builder continues the Perkins Sabre tradition ... The M.V. Edwardian, which was built for Sir Richard Branson 20 years ago, ...

If I remember correctly it had a real comfortable interior. (Maybe it was an interior design mag issue, or lifestyle mag issue I saw). Anyone know of more info??

[xarax]

Attach an uninflated RIB tube along the cabin floor of your barge. Fill the tube with water whenever you confront waves that induce excessive rolling.

[wightmage]

Hi All,

Not trying to kick a hornets nest here. The thread was to explore the potential of a Dutch Barge as a long distance cruiser.

I am finding it difficult to believe that Human inventivness cannot come up with a set of steps that could be taken to make an old Dutch Barge capable of navigating the same course that yachts that are 20-50ft in length do each year as part of the ARC rally.

Even I can understand that the flex of the hul can be controlled via strengthening using interior structure work. The Coach house can also be modified.

If an old Mississippi Steam paddle riverboat can be boarded up and towed from California via the Pamana Canal back to the Mississippi then there has to be some potential.

I am not inviting a flame session. What I am asking is very simple.

What needs to be done to the boat as a minimum to allow it to make the voyage?

[FAST FRED]

"To be honest its uniqueness would allow me to potentialy chater and get a good income out of it. Its about investment really I guess."

In the USA the Jones Act makes the use of a non US built hull almost impossible in commercial service.

YOU can NOT take passengers fore hire , not even 6 which can be done in a US built cardboard box.

You can give the charterer the keys , and watch him sail off into the sunset , but without YOU aboard as "guest" or "adviser".

There IS a chance, if you're well politically connected, to purchase a "Special Bill" ( BIG BUCK$) that will permit this , but its probably cheaper to build a replica in the US.

We "Have the best congress money can by" Will Rogers

"What needs to be done to the boat as a minimum to allow it to make the voyage?"

Planning, prayer and lots of luck with the weather.

Lots of boats very unsubstantial boats gather each year and get blown downwind to the Windward islands. Join the group and hope.

FF

[ted655]

We looked for 3 years to find ANY sort of Dutch Barge here in the USA. We gave up & bought a houseboat.
We briefly considered tring to leave Ireland & hit a "window" of calm North Atlantic. We found nobody willing to help with the plan. They all considered it suicide to try.
I am at a loss to explain why there is no American builders. There IS a market. In steel, not GRP! One thing we don't need here is 1 more "cheap glass boat".
The exchange rate is against us now also.

The flat bottom is mainly what keeps the boat from being a safe cruiser. A detachable keel is needed. Unbolt it for calm water or ship it back to the builder after use. Windows need shutters AND... yes a stronger backbone than normal. More power also.
The cabins are perfect for a self righting roof chamber. Next stop--- Nova Scotia!!

[colinstone]

A "narrowboat" crossed the Atlantic - see http://iwn.iwai.ie/v29i2/ifrances.PDF

and a dutch barge has also crossed the Atlantic - but I cannot find the reference.

[Pericles]

$700 would purchase a set of plans to build a 45' Teign Motor Barge suitable for US water. See half way down the page below:

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mcover30.htm

At the bottom of the page is the 41' Humber Steel Barge for $560.

The plans can be modified to lengthen the vessels I believe. Food for thought?

Pericles

[ted655]

Thamks, I'd forgot Selway.
The wheel house/salon is farther aft than I like. A mid position make hamdling easier.
Are their plans popular? Anyone ever build from them? Full size, lofting or ??

[michael60]

Greenseas2 if I were going to do that I would likely build in Aluminum as this would be the prefered building medium for large flatter sections. I would ditch the fan tail in favor of a very useful cockpit/ swim platform/ garage for toys and easy access to the water. LOA would be about 48' and the beam would be around 12'-13' I would try to keep the displacement around 20k.

I would go with both stern and bow thrusters and an engine of moderate Hp, say an 80hp John Deere. I would consider a high volume low speed jet to get the draft under 2'. The interior would likely be done in cypress/white formica.

Electrical would consist of large cage 250 amp alternator, Large house bank, 3500 W inverter, solar panels, Reverse/AC, combo water heater,windlass and propane stove. AC would be by 30 amp shore power or inverterWouldn't aluminum be an extremely difficult material for the amateur builder to use? I mean, welding steel skilfully enough for a maritime environment is something I would find daunting and I believe welding aluminum is far more difficult than steel. Am I wrong?

Also, a cockpit/swim platform/garage for toys is good for having fun but is it as seaworthy as a high stern with even higher freeboard?

I guess we are on different wavelengths here. I thought this thread was about contributing ideas for an easily built/affordable Dutch Barge. This far into the thread, I have enjoyed some of the exchanges bar one that took a cheap, rather ignorant, shot at an aviator. I for one am hoping to see some useful and constructive results here.

I have long been considering a Dutch Barge design from Euroship Services, NL, but cannot seriously contemplate doing the welding myself and then piling my family aboard and going to sea - even on inland lakes and large estuaries. I favour wood/epoxy for very many reasons, not least of which is that I feel fully capable of building a seaworthy boat in that medium.

Ah well, onwards and upwards ... :)

Regards

michael60

[michael60]

Thamks, I'd forgot Selway.
The wheel house/salon is farther aft than I like. A mid position make hamdling easier.
Are their plans popular? Anyone ever build from them? Full size, lofting or ??Don't forget Selway-Fisher, if you are wise. I've a growing belief that their designs are truly first class. If you want to modify, I know Paul Fisher would be more than happy to advise and help you do so.

Regards

michael60

[martinf]

Hello all,

What I'm going to ask here is a bit off topic, but it is my poor-man's idea of a dutch barge, so here goes.

I have an opportunity to buy a WWII Sea Mule, basically a pusher tug for moving barges around. What I want to do is take half of it--they two identical modules bolted together-- and modify it to be a slow crusing, low CG humble house boat. See attached drawing.

A single module is 40' long, 6.5' beam, 3' draft and 7 ton. I'd cut down by the waterline, put 2 hard chines out horizontal to widen my floor space, as well as stabilize the boat, and then go straight up for a 7' high wall.

The bottom of the original hull would be for tanks, engine and ballast, if I need additional.

Yep, it wouldn't be the cutest thing out there, but it would meet my needs all around.
Cheap - I can get the thing, with engines, for 4,000 bucks
Stable - I cannot use a conventional pontoon houseboat, or flat-botton shallow river boat, as the lake I'll be on exclusively gets some big waves coming down the long narrow lake with nowhere to hide.
Trailerable - I can't afford, nor is it easy to get year-round moorage, and this boat, while big and heavy, would be within legal, non-permit, road limits and I only live 5 miles away.
Fairly cheap to run - It's got Chystler marine straight 8's in it now, but I'd swap to a Detroit Diesel 371 I've got laying around here at the shop

So, what do you think? Is cutting this old girl up and modifying it in this manner going to give me something that will give me what I want (which is a slow, stable house boat with 8' X 30-some ft sq of living space)?

If you think this folly, please tell me know before I arrange to low-boy this thing home!
~martin

[michael60]

Is cutting this old girl up and modifying it in this manner going to give me something that will give me what I want (which is a slow, stable house boat with 8' X 30-some ft sq of living space)?Martinf

I'm no marine designer but I would be a little concerned about stability here. From your sketch, it looks a tad top-heavy.

Also, is this actually going to be big enough for you to live comfortably? Unless you are alone, it offers less living space than a very small English narrowboat would.

Since you only live 5 miles from the lake in question, does it really matter whether it costs a few bucks to have it low-loadered to the launch? If not, then you could use both modules - or even split them and re-assemble at the water's edge together with superstructure.

Just my unqualified opinion, of course. It will be interesting to see what others think.

Best of luck :)

michael60

[ted655]

:confused:
Would the "hull" 1/2 remain the hull? The same form underwater? Below waterline is always designed for just that, to be strong & smooth "in the water".
Side decks are a necessity on a big boat, where are yours?
IF you are cutting the top off & keeping the bottom, then you're on to something. If you are throwing the bottom away, then (GULP!), good luck.
I always wanted to build a shallow hull, ballasted with concrete and bolt a shipping container on top. Fabricate a wheelhouse in the middle and have a cheap house barge.
We aren't far apart it doesn't look like.:)

[martinf]

Michael60,

Thanks for the input.
You're right, it isn't real big, but I'm not going to be living on it, just a week or so at a time. And the 8.5' beam keeps me in trailer country.
Not splittling the hull and keeping it as one doublewide and low-boying it isn't an option as it would be just to expensive each time (lowboy time and crane time both ends to load/unload probably set me back 300-500 bucks every time I wanted to use it!).

But, the top heavy question, ahh, now that's something I need answered. And will need to learn how to do this math. I'm hoping I'll be able to get some pointers on this site. But, for now I'm just looking for the basic opinions as to the soundness of the idea.

~martin

[martinf]

:confused:
Would the "hull" 1/2 remain the hull? The same form underwater? Below waterline is always designed for just that, to be strong & smooth "in the water".
Side decks are a necessity on a big boat, where are yours?
IF you are cutting the top off & keeping the bottom, then you're on to something. If you are throwing the bottom away, then (GULP!), good luck.
I always wanted to build a shallow hull, ballasted with concrete and bolt a shipping container on top. Fabricate a wheelhouse in the middle and have a cheap house barge.
We aren't far apart it doesn't look like.:)

Yep, definately keeping the bottom as is. Specifically, I'm widening the top half 2 ft. This will expand my floor space.

I'm also thinking that by modifying the hull to create outward chines, this will increase my stability. Am I right about that?

Regarding the side decks. I'd like them but don't know how to have them and still keep my beam at 8.5....I suppose I could have narrow decks that fold up.

And yes, Ted, we're on the same wavelength here with this idea.

Other thoughts/concerns about this?
~martin

[michael60]

martinf

OK, I perhaps misread your original post in that I thought you had said you didn't want it trailerable. I was wrong in that respect, I see. You DO want to trailer it.

Looking again at the problem, I see you have 6.5 feet beam. That's roughly the same as an English narrowboat. Why not go straight up from there? A chine is usually in the water, not at the waterline for the entire length of the boat. It's your 'chine' that makes for the apparent instability in your drawing.

Since you say you only want to live aboard occasionally, a 30 foot (or more if you extend the length overall, which is perfectly feasible) hull with a 6.5' beam is in common use on English waterways as a narrowboat. However, you need to think about those waves you mentioned and look for stability. Canal boats can handle some small waves but nothing too big.

I would still like to see some input from someone who has design knowledge, so here's hoping you can get a definitive response. My own instincts tell me that the original designer never intended this hull should function when unbolted into single units. Perhaps I am entirely wrong. Logic tells me that a houseboat from this design is perfectly feasible by either building on top of both hulls together or by splitting them into separate pontoons beneath an even wider superstructure than 13 feet.

Interesting post of yours. One that gets the little grey cells to work. Well done. :D

Regards

michael60

[martinf]

martinf

Looking again at the problem, I see you have 6.5 feet beam. That's roughly the same as an English narrowboat. Why not go straight up from there? A chine is usually in the water, not at the waterline for the entire length of the boat. It's your 'chine' that makes for the apparent instability in your drawing.

Regards

michael60
I was widening it out a foot on each side to give me more floor space, but also thinking that that would add more stability, not less. Granted, it does add to the top heavines issue, but doesn't widening it make it less likely to roll over IF that widened chine portion is in the water? If that horizontal one ft chine were up in the air, yes, it would reduce stability, but if that part is down in the water, I'm thinking that that acts a bit like adding outriggers, so to speak. I guess one would have to factor the increased stability due to hull widening against the decreased stability due to extra top heaviness.

Or am I not viewing this correctly?

[ted655]

It can.... depending. Hunt up the thread on "tumblehome", here on the forum. Read that thread.
What keeps a boat from rolling "over" is the bottom is heavier than the top & the mechanical advantage between the 2 is low. That advantage can be wind, waves, cargo, sails, troughs in the ocean, etc..
That being said, there are equations to "guesstimate all that, but to be really sure, a model must be tank tested.
Ballast in the bilge & a air tight chamber on top of the cabin are good starts for us amateurs.
Dave Gerrs book, "The nature of boats" ougt to be in your library.

[martinf]

Great, Ted, I'm on it. Just found the thread and bought the book (dontcha love the used section of amazon...)

And, what you said makes total sense. I think I'm already there: beefy, heavy steel hull below, light house thing on top, but not too high up. And stabilty adding chine width a bit below the waterline. I realize I need to do calcs to figure out actual draft, but where should that chine be...at the waterline, just below, or deep in?

Thanks for your help and a blessed Thanksgiving to you all.
~martin

[colinstone]

It would float very well the other way up!!!!!

[michael60]

It would float very well the other way up!!!!!Well said, colinstone. I had thought of putting that view forward but persevered with trying to find some way to make it work.

Fact is, martinf, that most boats ARE the other way up - unless they capsize, of course.

[ted655]

I think the chine should be deep into the water, but freeboard is a consideration.
Here, in the calm waters of the swamp, most skiffs are 18" to 21" deep. So when they set their freeboard on their floating cabins, they try to hit @ close to those heights. That way they can load & unload directly across from deck to deck. No big step up or down. The cabins are pushed to & from with the skiffs, it helps if both are the same /close height above water line.
As an example, my houseboat has a 30" freeboard. I would do real damage if I tried to push it.
At the point where you decide to add chine, will this be @ the bottom of boat & will you then add short vertical sides, & then angle out & up or is your plan to continue from point of hull bottom "out & up" at a angle until l you achieve your desired deck freeboard? To do the latter will give you too steep an angle in order to keep the desired boat width. Another choice would be to add short angled sides 1/2 way up & then add another vertacal chine (1/2 submerged, until desired freeboard is obtained.

[martinf]

It would float very well the other way up!!!!!

I know, I know...it does look weird. it's just that this metal hull meets my needs pretty peerfectly: 6.5' wide so I can trailer it, lots of freeboard...and cheap!

I just gotta believe there's a way I can take this hull, modify it as need be, and put a bit of a house boat in it and somewhat above it.

I am going to put some sweat into this by understanding and completing the basic calcs, perhaps even learning FreeShip, so I can ask some educated questions of you good people (and perhaps "earn" some answers from the engineers gracious enoguh to give advice on this board).

Right now I'm much better with a torch and rod than a calculator...
~martin

[michael60]

Hey martinf

What's happening with your plans? Any news on what you are gunna do? :confused:

I truly hope you've resolved the problem by now and have the project well underway. :)

Best wishes

michael60

[RCardozo]

I bit the bullet and did it right. I cut out a 15' x 13' of the forward hold where the steel was corroded and cut back to good steel then put new beams and plate then reglassed the outside back up. The glass does bond to the steel long term at least untill water gets in then it causes corrosion and it delaminates. The plan is to monitor the glass and patch it whenever i sound the hull and detect any hollowness. That is an indication of water/corrosion inside the glass.

[martinf]

I am definately purchasing the boat. That's in process right now. Looks like at least for a while I am going to keep the hulls together and use it as a working boat. I am going to put a hydraulic log loader on it and use it to do log clean up (a huge issue on my lake from stream flooding out of the mtns) on the lake.
Thanks for asking. No doubt, I'll be posting other questions a I get it all together.
~martin

[brian eiland]

Haven't had time to really explore this subject thread, although it is a subject that's always interested me. Just ran across this interesting info posted by a fellow Perciles (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=184723&postcount=16) back in Feb.....

Norfolk Wherries.
The mast is pivoted within a substantial tabernacle and is fitted with a large counterbalance weight at the bottom. This enables the wherry to lower the mast for passing under bridges. The mast can be dropped, the wherry continues forward under its momentum and the mast is raised again on the far side by the crew of two. If there is no wind, or for maneuvering, quaint poles are used to push the wherry.

Norfolk Wherries
http://www.horning.org.uk/stylegallery.php?page=wherry&menu=style4

[Greenseas2]

In this day of high fuel prices, any supplemental propulsion system that doesn't use fuel is welcome whether it's sail, poling or sculling. Naval Architect Phillip Bolger has a good simple design for a counter balanced mast that can be operated by one person. The thrust behind Dutch style barges as long distance cruisers is to provide a live aboard vessel with sufficient space for most normal live aboard functions that would be comfortable for an individual, couple or small family while also providing economical power and tankage for long distance cruising on relatively quiet waters. The Dutch style barge just happens to be the design that capitalizes on space, economy of construction and operation due to hull speed as it relates to waterline length with low power requirement
Your idea of mounting a mast that can be lowered for bridges is a good one. The mast, when upright, can also be rigged to lift a dinghhy or gang plank onboard.
Recently there have been several designs for Dutch style barges that can be economically built with plywood, then encapsulated in fiberglass. Selway Fisher Designs has a few nice live aboards on the order that we are looking for, and ones that can be built for a fraction of the cost of a steel vessel. Upgrading an existing steel barge is also quite expensive.
It is felt that, due to the extremely high cost of new homes, the high cost of taxes and the high cost of home owner insurance and utilities, the Dutch style barges may offer families a method to build their own home with a relocation capability at a reasonably low price.

[Greenseas2]

As with any boat design and construction plan, first design the boat that you want, then build a model. Especially with composite or fiberglass-over-plywood boat, you can learn a lot about the construction and building techniques by building a model. The lessons a valuable in speeding up construction and avoiding mistakes found in building the model. A four foot model should be large enough to make all of the internal accommodation fit out build-in features to include block tank, etc. Good material for model construction is door skin and it will float if all surfaces are coated with epoxy resin first.

[Pericles]

Here's the story about the creation of narrowboat NB Hadar, right from the marking of the steel. http://www.hadar.org.uk/

You'll have to scroll back through 5 older pages, but it's worth the journey along some English canals. Plenty of photographs. As of yesterday they were in Ruislip, which is where my family and I live at present, though not on the Grand Union canal.:D :D :D

http://www.ukcanals.net/iwmap.pdf

Perry

[Greenseas2]

I've often wanted to rent a narrowboat and travel the canals in the UK. I've also studied your canal system in detail and searched for blue prints and construction plans for the 66 foot Clyde Puffer. A modernized Puffer would be ideal for island cargo trade in the Bahamas and Caribbean being that they can operate without port facilities, are economical and can ground on flat bottoms much as they did in Scotland and Ireland. I fear that a narrowboat is limited to British canals in that wakes from large high speed vessel would make operation in open water somewhat dangerous.

[Greenseas2]

COMPOSITE EASY TO BUILD DUTCH BARGE
We have finally developed a Dutch style barge that can be built of plywood, fiberglass cloth and epoxy. It is as aesthetically pretty as any Dutch Luxemotor, has a nice sheer line, tunblehome stern and is designed in direct proportion to other manufactured barges. Where we have departed from the norm is in the beam of the vessel. Being that most marinas charge slip fees by the linear foot, we have expanded the beam to compensate for a shorter length, but without impacting cruising performance. The additional beam also provides stability for the higher Dutch style pilot house. The barge is well within the dimensions and simplicity of construction to be built by amateurs. The vessel is 32'6" LOA, 14'8" beam and draft of 18". She is flat bottomed which should allow her to anchor in areas where most 33 footers would be hard aground. The flat bottom also makes for ease of construction. The barge is powered by a 35 - 40 hp diesel which will provide 5.5 knots at cruise speed and consume little fuel. The vessel has all of the live aboard amenities needed for a family. There are 2 separate sleeping cabins with real queen size beds. A head with shower, galley, salon with heater. dining area below and in the real Dutch style wheel house. Plans for the boat should be available some time around October, 2008.

[brian eiland]

COMPOSITE EASY TO BUILD DUTCH BARGE
We have finally developed a Dutch style barge that can be built of plywood, fiberglass cloth and epoxy. .... Where we have departed from the norm is in the beam of the vessel.... The additional beam also provides stability for the higher Dutch style pilot house. The barge is well within the dimensions and simplicity of construction to be built by amateurs. The vessel is 32'6" LOA, 14'8" beam and draft of 18". .
Question? Will she still fit thru the canals of Europe with this new beam dimension?

[yipster]

yes, most canals she easely will, i would be more concerned powering upstream rivers. second question: any drawings or pics ?

[Greenseas2]

We will have full scale drawings and pics of a model sometime in the fall. Currently the drawings are being done in CAD where all parts are laid out flat for templates including the round tumblehome stern parts. Essentially, in the United States there are no Dutch style barges and this one is designed for amateur building and specifically for the U.S. Intracoastal Waterway, rivers and the New York and other larger canal systems rather than European canals. For power we suggest a transmission of at least 2:1 with a somewhat larger 3 blade prop to handle currents found in most U.S. rivers and inlets. The boat isn't designed to be fast, but rather cover significant distances economically. At this point we feel that it is better to have construction plans that are easily understood rather than rush the process.

[FAST FRED]

The boat isn't designed to be fast, but rather cover significant distances economically

If it wont run 6K+ the ICW would be "Much Unfun".

The Hudson runs 2 or 3K , so planning with even a 6K boat may make a 120 mile jaunt take all week depending on tides and sunrise.

FF

[Greenseas2]

Hi Fred,
I've been up and down the Hudson many times....under sail as well as power. I'm not looking for speed in this design but if someone wants to put in a big fuel burner they are welcome to it. If you cruise near the shore you are out of the strongest part of the current until you reach the venturi at West Point. (Taught sailing and Satellite Communication electronic at WP) The idea of the design is low and slow with your whole house and worldly possessions onboard and time really isn't that significant. Also, I wouldn't hesitate to take the boat through Hell Gate either. Name of this tune is geared down shaft with a good 3 blade power prop. The only speed any Dutch barge makes is down stream.

[RHP]

Question? Will she still fit thru the canals of Europe with this new beam dimension?


14'3" is about the max permitted beam on the UK canals.

http://www.ukcanals.net/craftsize.pdf

Take a look at the Leeds-Liverpool as an example of a UK canal.

[Greenseas2]

Brian, unfortunately a Dutch Barge of these dimensions probably won't fit in canals designed for narrowboats. The thrust of working and developing this design effort is to promote Dutch style Barges on U.S. waterways. The best method to accomplish the effort is to design and build a vessel that can be built and operated by amateur builders. When the actual barge is completed along with easy to understand building plans and templates, the next logical step is to advertise the boat at the many large boat shows on the US Gulf and East coasts. I am not trying to slight Europeans who might want to build the vessel, but the primary objective is for the Intracoastal waterways, rivers and canals here in the United States. Europe has many fine builders of Dutch style barges, here we have none. If history serves me, I believe that Clyde Puffers used to navigate the Leeds Canal, and their beam was considerably greater than this design. I thank you for your interest.

[KnottyBuoyz]

COMPOSITE EASY TO BUILD DUTCH BARGE

Put me on your mailing list when the pics & plans are ready.

;-)

[Crag Cay]

I appreciate this design is aimed at the US market, but it might be worth correcting a few of the European 'facts' quoted recently!

The standard beam for the 'broad' canals of the UK is 14ft, although some are a little wider and a few narrower. 14ft was twice the standard narrow canal boat beam of 7ft.

I know the Clyde Puffers were a common sight on the Crinan and Caledonian Canals (and possible parts of the Clyde and Forth Canal, but I doubt they were ever seen on the Leeds Liverpool - they would have become jammed under the first bridge!

I think of the European Canals, the ones in Brittany are narrowest at 14.75ft, but the rest are wider, most way more.

[Greenseas2]

I appreciate the information. I have been on a Dutch Commercial Barge from Ghent to Rotterdam a few years ago as well as a short cruise on a narrowboat just outside London. The 14+ foot width may pose some problems on UK canal sharp turns but it would fit. I would hesitate to make the beam any narrower in that stability would be affected somewhat. After the drawings are complete, I'll post them on this thread and then you will have a better idea of their utility in your area.

[diwebb]

Hi, just found this site. Anyone interested in a barge yacht should look at Charley Wards Thames Barge inspired yachts, do a google search to find his website. I have no connections to him but find his designs very appealing.
During the first and second world wars barges were built in concrete and were quite successful. Many were sunk to form breakwaters and some can still be seen at Sharpness in England as a protective barrier for the disused arm where pleasure boats moor on the Gloucester and Sharpness canal.
George Beuhler, the Seattle based naval architect has some interesting ideas on boat construction that may be applicable to a sailing or motor barge design. He uses construction yard timber of fairly heavy section and produces designs that are suitable for amateur builders.
I am about to start construction of a cruising sailboat based on the barge style hull, she will have bilge keels and a skeg but will only draw four feet on a length of 45 feet and a beam of 12.
Thames barges have sailed across the Atlantic to the West Indies and were designed to be sailed by a man and a boy, so are very easy to handle. They may form an interesting basis for a design in steel, concrete or wood and they make great liveaboards similar to the Dutch barges.

[Greenseas2]

Currently the ongoing design for the Dutch style barge is meant for relatively calm waters of the ICW, rivers and canals of the U.S. and Canada. The primary goal is to develop a design that is economical to build, maintain and operate. The preliminary design measures 33+ feet by 14 feet with an 18 inch draft and is a composite of sheet plywood, fiberglass and epoxy and powered by a 35 hp to 45 hp diesel. Due to the generous beam, it would be quite easy to stretch the length to some greater length. Other construction mediums have been closely evaluated, but both steel and ferrocement are outside of the skill envelope of most amateur builders who are also on a limited budget. While having nice sheer lines and being seaworthy for the intended use, the initial design might be considered a "Back Yard Dutch Barge" as due to the dimensions,that is the place where one would probably be built. Building plans and first vessel should be ready in late Fall.

[KnottyBuoyz]

Building plans and first vessel should be ready in late Fall.
Can we get some preliminary or conceptual sketches to wet our appetites? ;)

[SamSam]

Put me on your mailing list when the pics & plans are ready.....Can we get some preliminary or conceptual sketches to wet our appetites? ;)

October is a long ways away, so if you can, Greenseas, put me on a mailing list or at least make enough noise and stink so I might notice when you offer plans. ;)

[Greenseas2]

Yep, I'll put you on the list. Just to give you some idea of where we started with the design, take a look at www.Berkeley-Engineering.com and read all the information in their web site. Both the 14' 3" tug and the construction method lend themselves to amateur construction. Under the 14'3" boat page you will see one that is stretched to 16 feet, (green hull) and in the "tugs for sale" page you will see one stretched to 25 feet. This is the beginning, but engineering changes to preserve the nice sheer line and tumblehome stern is taking time as is the dimensions to beef up the structural components. After that, the whole process is submitted to CAD in order to verify the design and develop flat patterns that are used in cutting. The mechanics of structure for the vessel are relatively simple. Within the web site notice the prime deficiency in the stretched boats...the freeboard hasn't been increased in proportion to the length. The higher freeboard is necessary in giving the barge it's interior volume that prevents having to design an overly high superstructure. Two times 14'3" plus 4 feet. Changing a basic design to fit other requirements goes far beyond simply doubling the size.

[brian eiland]

I thought a mention of this canal subject was appropriate here

1963 In, after 150 yrs of existence of this water way with 11 locks the construction of a huge water carousel started. This extraordinary idea was finished in 2002 and became a symbol of Scotland. This invention saves not only time but also energy

This is the only rotational boat transporter in the world. It has two arms and each arm forms a kind of huge tub filled with water. Boats enter the tub, then the tub locks up and the huge arm starts rotating.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21519

[lazeyjack]

been watching this thread with Interest
Myself and jbnautika here on forum have pretty much wrapped our design for a canal , coastal and river boat for Eu market,
She is 14.06, 3.8. 16000kg with extra long range tanks, alloy hull and decks glassed ply houses Moderate vee sections and box keel for ballast and manouverabilty
She will have a strong 4cyl Deere or Cummins, which will burn .6 gal 4.5 the legal sp on the canals, but which will be powerful enough to stem the Rhine

[Pericles]

Brian,

The Anderton boat lift has been restored to full working order.

http://www.andertonboatlift.co.uk/

However, the great nut shrinker is to be found on the Llangollen canal. Gentlemen, I give you the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct over the River Dee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontcysyllte_Aqueduct

One side has the towpath, but there aren't any rails on the other side to prevent the person steering to step off the narrowboat and over the edge!!!:( :( :( :( :(

The precursor of the Aqueduct is to be found in a field and could be brought back into use if the Shrewsbury canal is reopened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrewsbury_Canal

More information about canals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canals_of_the_United_Kingdom

Perry

[Greenseas2]

The information on the canals is really great. Unfortunately, in both the UK and US, early barge builders didn't put a high priority on safety rails either on the boats or aquaducts. As a matter of fact, safety rails were considered obstructions to loading and maneuvering. This applies to both barges and trad stern narrowboats. In reviewing many hundred of barges and narrowboats, the only safety rails installed were probably installed within the past few years by new owners. In our own design that is forth coming, we also have not designed safety rails in to the boat, but opted for wider decks walks and/or use of the cabin top to go forward for anchor handling and other chores.

[Greenseas2]

Branson boats has a nice Luxemotor design for the 34' to 40' class in steel. Branson says that 34 feet is the ideal length for cruising. Our design that we're just completing in plywood is similar to the 34 foot Luxemotor except our stern is different in order to have an additional berth area. In the design process, we also discovered that the barge can be easily modified to be powered by a 50 horse power Four cycle outboard engine if desired. While the design does maintain the beautiful shear line, plumb bow and tumble home stern, it is easily built by amateurs. Rather than using butt joints, we have opted for scarf joints on the plywood panels as being stronger. The builder does lose 5 inches of wood on scarf joints but the joints are much stronger and 5 sheets of ply can be scarfed at one time using a 7 inch plane and belt sander. More as we get closer to a finished design product

[lazeyjack]

here are our prelims
the range is better than 5000 miles at river speeds
the first the red boat is steel, 12.6m which was not designed by us , but is the one we based our concept upon as she has done 4 successful years in Europe, the new one is 14.6 mx3.8x1m, in heavy alloy with ply glassed houses
She has two double cabins with ensuite, , thruster, hydraulic, powerful 4.5 l engine swinging a large screw through a 3:1 box and will be offered complete, that is ready to cruise with Cat B ce
we are seeking markets in Eu
IMO ply or any wood or glass is unsuitable for locks,
this boat has a strong belting , 16mm thick, and one down by the waterline as some locks are low
there are very significant advantages in alloy, especially with fuel tanks, no painting, the need not to paint at all below the upper belting
We will be offering a 10 year hull warranty
In the past with my high speed sportfishers I have given 5 years with no problems and have several yachts in service that have circumnavigated
the box keel is important because with flat bottoms on rivers, you can get swept sideways, docking is made impossible without keel I have 3 Kiwi friends who made the mistake of having flat bottom The keel also has sealed lead ballast♠

[Greenseas2]

While steel boats are great. the currrent boats built of mild steel can't compare to those built a century ago of riveted black iron, and are still being used today. While initially nice, modern steel boats require more frequent expensive haul outs, sand blasting and recoating before antifouling paint is applied. The greatest difference is that steel boats are much too expensive for the average wage earner who wants a barge to either live on or cruise on with the wife and kids.

There are many vessels today that are built of plywood, fiberglass and epoxy that were built by amateurs with good guidance by professionals that have lasted well over a quarter of a century. The goal that we are working for is to finalize the design of a medium size Dutch Barge for amateur construction, but one that results in a professional appearance and handling capabilities with low economical diesel power and one that is within financial reach of the average guy. Few people these days have a disposable 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars that they can put in to a boat such as those pictured.

Give the average wage earner a project that he/she can afford and detailed plans where he/she feels that the project can be accomplished at a reasonable price and you have boats being built rather than dreams being washed away. Any DIY project has to be recognized as achievable from the outset. That's the goal.

[Greenseas2]

Everyone keeps refering to locks as a negative. I regularly take 400 to 600 foot tows through locks and am able to keep the vessel off the walls by a few inches. It's not the locks that are at fault for scaring people, it's incompetent vessel operators. As with anything else, locking takes practice, practice practice. On my own vessel we don't even put out bumpers for locking. If there are severaal boats going through,we can drop a few wooden lock boards on the wall side. (1/2" x2" x 3' Lock boards are a Canadian thing and work well without having to get those pretty white bumpers dirty on the lock wall scum) Dirty lock boards can be stored in a small 3" x 3' capped PVC pipe and stowed.

[lazeyjack]

Everyone keeps refering to locks as a negative. I regularly take 400 to 600 foot tows through locks and am able to keep the vessel off the walls by a few inches. It's not the locks that are at fault for scaring people, it's incompetent vessel operators. As with anything else, locking takes practice, practice practice. On my own vessel we don't even put out bumpers for locking. If there are severaal boats going through,we can drop a few wooden lock boards on the wall side. (1/2" x2" x 3' Lock boards are a Canadian thing and work well without having to get those pretty white bumpers dirty on the lock wall scum) Dirty lock boards can be stored in a small 3" x 3' capped PVC pipe and stowed.


?? the goal, this thread is about long distance cruisers, you make not much sense, the difference between a glass boat and an alloy one as far as cost goes is minimal to say the least, 40000k of alloy? the rest is the same cost, fittings , fisnish the works
you may like to say something more constructive? Nope? well too bad
i have no fear of locks but when I build I like to make sure my boats suit the business to hand
yes I dunno how many times I have read here abt you long tows
But all i can say is that boats Do get knocked around, in some locks there are huge piles of tyres for people to use
in fact if you think you can cross France without fenders then you a re out of touch with reality if you think even an experienced boatman can make sure he never belts the paint then you are way off track
i was on tugs in North Sea, i sailed since 13, I am now 62 and I have had practice practice practice so dont tell me that practice will stop paint getting scatched, unless you have permanent tyrework all over your topsides, or a good crew, then you cant keep off the wall all the time How ever with the use of ss belting on steel boats you dont need worry abt wall, esp if you have tumblehome and proud beltings
That is why with this alloy boat with belting that can take , breastwork, piles, wharves without fenders , it is of great benefit especially short handed
25 years for a boat? well that'd be a very poor investment

[diwebb]

Hi Greenseas,
a couple of thoughts for discussion.
About thirty years ago I did a design exercise for my local yacht club for a floating club house that could also be used for sail training. I based the design on a Thames Barge, however construction was a different matter. As the club had several builders as members I suggested that the bottom of the vessel and the lower three feet of the topsides be constructed of reinforced concrete, the remaining structure being wood using simple lumberyard stock. The design never went ahead but the concept has always intrigued me and I wondered if this might be a suitable method for the boat you are designing. One advantage would be that the extra displacement would make the vessel much steadier in windy conditions, also the heavy bottom would absorb engine vibrations and make the vessel quieter underway. As you are proposing a vessel of displacement speed only, then the extra weight would not be a great detriment.
Another thought was the possible use of a system I came up with for sheathing old wooden planked boats to prolong their useful lives. My proposal was to use Elastodeck BT as produced by Pacific Polymers in Garden Grove, California, in combination with a geotextile fabric in two overlapping layers. The Elatodeck is a water curing one pot modified bitumen elastomer and is suitable for permanent immersion, it is also relatively cheap ( ten years ago when I did the exercise it was about $16.00 per gallon, epoxy was about $100.00). In combination with the geotextile it produces a laminate that has the consistency of the sidewall of a car tyre and is fully adhered to the wood. Being a flexible membrane there is no problem with the wood moving. This method of waterproofing could be used for wood construction from simple lumberyard materials and is much less demanding on good workmanship. The Coastguard use a similar product to coat their steel sea buoys and these are only hauled every ten years for maintenance, and most of the buoys suffer no rust damage in that time, so the product is proven for marine use.
I hope that you find these suggestions of some use in your design.
I look forward to seeing the final product.
David

[wightmage]

Hi Greenseas2

Please mark me down for interest in the Barge plans.

[Greenseas2]

Thank you for the input, the subject definitely deserves to be researched further. I would be anxious to see how it might work over fiberglass on the submerged part of the hull. It sounds like the compounds might also be self sealing if the hull was punctured and a small leaked occured, and would create minimal drag.

Will do Wightmage.

[Greenseas2]

Wooden bumpers around boats have been existence for at least 100 years and a whole lot less expensive than steel or hard rubber belts, plus they are easily and inexpensively replaced. For $40,000 for any metals, an amateur builder should be able to completely build and furnish a plywood epoxy barge for a fraction of that price. Just as a note, I've also put some rather large ships through tight locks. Also, I have no intentions of going through any French canals. Our design is purely for calm waters in the United States....and elsewhere if people are interested. The reason being that we have no Dutch style barges here and high interest has been shown for a basic, easy to build barge of similar configuration. Welders here charge around $28 an hour which is too much for the average builder. The design is ideally suited for the ICW, rivers and US canal systems, one of which I live near with 5 locks and three 90 degree channel turns.

[lazeyjack]

Wooden bumpers around boats have been existence for at least 100 years and a whole lot less expensive than steel or hard rubber belts, plus they are easily and inexpensively replaced. For $40,000 for any metals, an amateur builder should be able to completely build and furnish a plywood epoxy barge for a fraction of that price. Just as a note, I've also put some rather large ships through tight locks. Also, I have no intentions of going through any French canals. Our design is purely for calm waters in the United States....and elsewhere if people are interested. The reason being that we have no Dutch style barges here and high interest has been shown for a basic, easy to build barge of similar configuration. Welders here charge around $28 an hour which is too much for the average builder. The design is ideally suited for the ICW, rivers and US canal systems, one of which I live near with 5 locks and three 90 degree channel turns.
i give up you are IMO one eyed And you are not a boatbuilder, people who have never been such, tend to be totally out of touch with costings
you do not read properly what is said
And prey tell me, when a powerplant is 20k, oh forget it, I wish you the very best of luck with your project, and let's agree to disagree!:)

[Riverrat1969]

Greenseas2, please put me on your list for your barge plans. I'm one of those people you mentioned that simply cannot afford the extravagance of a professionally built yacht, and it sounds like what you propose will be ideal for easing into the "Frying Pan" off of Alligator River, NC, or winding up the Chowan/Nottoway River in NC/VA.

[Greenseas2]

Thank you for your interest in the design River Rat. The reader response (25,000+) is a good indication that the design would be well worth the time and effort in creating. Thus far, the design shows us that it can be either powered by a small inboard diesel or even a relatively modest 4 cycle outboard in a well. Essentially, the thing that gives the boat it's shallow draft are the dinsions of the hull whch are almost a stretch cat boat hull. Beam 49% of waterline length. This particular measuremnt is in view of the fact that marina slip price (by the running foot) have gone sky high. Plus the added width gives a lot more internal living space. So far and according to the preliminary draft, the boat can be a one bedroom live aboard for two. or a two bedroom cruiser for 4. Space savings can be made by running double berths across the vessel rather than more yachty lengthwise island beds that do little except take up space. Also, the design shows that a single head and shower near the helm would be most useful. Boats that have several heads have higher building and maintenance expenses. Also, a sailboat style galley is probably the most efficient space wise. We're trying to get the same accommodations in to a 34 foot Dutch barge length that most 45 footers have, yet maintain the Dutch barge design quality.
Again. Thank you for your input.

[FAST FRED]

this boat has a strong belting , 16mm thick, and one down by the waterline as some locks are low

GOOD IDEA! in locking the biggest pain was where the lock walls were 6 inches above the filled lock.

FF

[lazeyjack]

this boat has a strong belting , 16mm thick, and one down by the waterline as some locks are low

GOOD IDEA! in locking the biggest pain was where the lock walls were 6 inches above the filled lock.

FF

thanks Fred we have been designing this for 6 months and NODODY has commented which is really odd, apart from yourself
I am a real fan of belting, I had a steel yacht once, dutch design, my first build, it had tumblehome, and I put an ss face on the belting, I left it tied up to a commercial dock, where sometimes the waves coming over the harbour would thump her heavily against the piles facing the wharf, I never used fenders or boards and never needed to move her ever, I do the same now with all my alloy builds

[FAST FRED]

Wanting a "Box Boat" our solution for the hull deck area was a modification of the classic Euro sustem of a 3 inch rope to be the rub rail .

We figure a set of inflatable fenders with a tight line would serve the purpose , but be removable , when the beam needs to shrink to ship in the container..

The fenders would sit be in a built channel same as the rope rubrail folks do.

But the concept of a lower rub rail is certainly a concept we will happily STEAL!

Thanks,

FF

[Greenseas2]

Hi Fred,
A lower rub rail is a good idea. Basically we're designing this barge version for the US waterways and canal where most of the locks, when full, still have a couple of feet of wall above the decks. When locking through, I usually leave enough slack in the lines to let the boat stay a foot or two off of the wall. This does take coordination with the decky near the bow, but we also use the wireless head set to prevent having to yell. (great invention). A water level bumper would still be useful in a slip as well as tying up along the bank. We'll have to see how it works in to the design. I have a feeling that belting might be more expensive than average builders could afford though.

[diwebb]

Hi Greenseas,
I did the attached design sketches for a concept similar to yours, here in New Zealand. It has much in common with your idea and I thought it might be of interest to you. If anyone is interested, I would be prepared to work it up in to a full design. Construction is plywood and lumberyard timber. Coatings to owners choice. Power is either one outboard of 30/40HP, two high thrust 8/10 HP outboards or small inboard diesel with V drive gearbox. The cockpit sides would have roll down curtains for inclement weather and the stern seat in the cockpit slides out to provide a spare double berth.
Any comments would be appreciated.
All the best with your design and I would appreciate being copied on the design when it is complete.
David

[Greenseas2]

Thanks for the input David. Your design looks very functional for long distance cruising and I wouldn't change anything. Our design while having similarities is flat bottom as speed isn't a primary requirement. Trial and error are causing some changes here. Initially we had intended to put head and shower forward at the base of the pilothouse steps where it would serve pilot house and both sleeping cabins. We had to change it as the pilot house dinette is the primary dining area where those seated can enjoy full cruising view. Naturaloly, the galley has to be close by to hand up food to the dining area. Also, the engine room for the diesel is under the pilothouse. If an outboard, or two, are used they would be mounted under an elevated hinged berth in the stern where the rudder and steering gear are normally located. This would provide a huge storage space under the pilot house. Details are still being worked out for the boat, but we hope to post the drawings in the next few weeks.

[FAST FRED]

The least effort on locking in the locks that are equipped with them is the floating pin.

If the boat has a midship cleat a line is simply run round the pin , and you're done.

We used this on the "Loop" last summer and it was effortless.

IF you have a midship cleat, with EZ access.

Ours was out the PH door.

FF

[Greenseas2]

Thanks Fred. I put midship cleats on every boat I've had, but your input gives it a new use. Generally before entering a slip on a windy day, I rig a line on the upwind midships cleat and throw that around a piling or dock cleat first. It and bumpers will hold the boat in position and allow you to put the rest of the lines on the dock or pilings at a leisurely pace. No muss, no fuss, no hassle.

[jprn]

Hello !
I live in France near the Canal du Midi and plan to build a Dutshbarge.
Greenseas2, please put me on your list for your plans. You told october, are they ready ?

[owkaye]

What is your current estimate of the cost of the plans you'll be selling later this fall? I don't care about an exact price but I'm sure you've given plenty of thought to how much you're going to want to get for such plans, correct?

[kengrome]

I think that many of the arguments for the proposed Greenseas2 boat make sense only for those who will be selling the plans ...

I do not believe for a moment that 'average wage earners' in the USA will have enough money or time to finish such a boat in less than a decade, and committing the vast majority of their non-employment waking hours to such a project for 10+ years is not a likely scenario in my opinion.

Then again, all you need to sell plans is a good idea and great pictures ... :)

Don't get me wrong, I think it is fun to imagine and design such boats, and I think you'll sell lots of plans if you keep them affordable, because it's a dream for lots of people to live on such a boat. But I'm a boat builder myself and even though I use epoxy, plywood, fiberglass, Kevlar, etc. extensively I still prefer a steel or aluminum alloy hull in my own personal live-aboard displacement speed cruising boat ...

Metal hulls are stronger, require less frequent maintenance, and can continue being used rather than 'emergency hauling' them every time the boat happens to rub against something that might have cut through the epoxy/glass sheathing and into the wood.

If all my worldly possessions are in the boat I want it to be a LOT stronger than any boat I have ever built using composite sandwich too.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally I love the appearance of the boat in this picture and I would much prefer one of these in steel or aluminum alloy to any live-aboard boat I might otherwise build for myself in wood / epoxy / glass:

http://www.bagacayboatworks.com/linkfiles/dutch%20barge%20live-aboard.jpg

[lazeyjack]

my dear chap, sensible posts such a s your are not welcome here:))
Plans for production in Eu are underway for the above--scroll up--
i did , reply your letter, but silence

[kengrome]

my dear chap, sensible posts such as your are not welcome hereYes I've been told this before. There is no place for facts or reality in the boating forums ... I think it ruins too many people's fantasies.

:)

Plans for production in Eu are underway for the above -- scroll up -- i did reply your letter, but silenceIt took me a while to catch up since my city trip a few days ago, but I'll be available again whenever my internet connection allows me to be online. It's not exactly predictable but at least it lets me get my email several times a day, that's the important thing.

I like your box keel. Box keels are good for efficiency, prop protection, beaching, horizontal shaft installation (maximum efficiency), lowest engine location, and more. My Tolman Seabright Skiff has one:

http://www.bagacayboatworks.com/images/seabright01/
http://www.bagacayboatworks.com/images/seabright02/
http://www.bagacayboatworks.com/images/seabright03/

... but I'm sure you've seen these pix before so this is nothing new to you.

Ten (10) year hull warranties are good, especially with alloy hulls. I'm sure the owners of your boat will have no trouble in getting insurance -- yes insurance -- this is another one of those 'practical' necessities that some people seem to forget about when talking about home built boats. I don't know too many people who are willing to move all their worldly possessions onto a boat they cannot insure, do you?

[boat fan]

What is your current estimate of the cost of the plans you'll be selling later this fall? I don't care about an exact price but I'm sure you've given plenty of thought to how much you're going to want to get for such plans, correct?

Anything new here yet ?:confused:

[rickthorn]

I am not so much looking for a builder for barges, but I am looking for a REASONABLE, competent design person. My direct interest is inquiry for plans as follows...
SEAGOING POWERED barge design, MUST HAVE 30'/9.14 M BEAM (important for outdoor gathering area/recreation), minimum 80'/24.38 M LENGTH, it will be a full time & permanent liveaboard for family & friends.
Power considerations are....TWO BIO DIESEL ENGINES, BOTH WITH TWO ELECTRIC MOTOR BACKUP, possibly small masts and sails. MAIN ELECTRICITY supplied by solar and wind generation, BIO DIESEL GENERATOR backup.
EXTENDED RANGE FUEL TANKS AND WATER TANKS A MUST
Main concern and overall, for safety of all involved is as follows...
MAIN DESIGN MUST BE AS CLOSE TO ABSOLUTELY UNSINKABLE AS POSSIBLE, IN ANY STORMS, SELF-RIGHTING DESIGN.
Even so, barge would be piloted to reasonably safe and affordable country to live on, and other than probably one-time voyage, will probably not be at sea afterwards.
I would prefer to leave it in one ideal place, but with such world instability, (plus I trust NO government,) this would be an uncertainty. Since this would be a large, very large liveaboard, I would have a large shop area inside also. If we found it necessary to relocate, I would have complete shop for either personal repairs, or as a business at any other location. I would have to build this on my own after getting a suitable design and blueprints/plans, etc. I am retired and on limited budget, but at least it would give me something to work toward in the future if I could get all planned and drawn up competently and correctly.
I have looked at a few barge designs and the small "canal" type or "river" barges would not work and would be dangerous to attempt what I wish...I have also looked at some large barges which would be beyond cost allowances to purchase and then convert, even to purchase used.
I would appreciate constructive ideas, no flaming, etc please. If you are not a designer, you are welcome to comment also, and those who know of competent, AND REASONABLE barge designer...(both to talk to and concerning cost, etc) your comments and advice will be appreciated.
Which countries offer the best advantages (mainly cost saving), regarding complete registration and licensing, etc, of large, private recreational vessels such as described?
Costs of registration, licensing (if applicable), insurance, matter may be quite prohibitive also.

[masalai]

I saw one for sale here (Australia) http://www.yachthub.com/ - - - How the fools got this far one can only guess - not really what one would call "seagoing" by any streatch - canal maybe - fools?

[Tad]

rick....

No barge 30' by 80' will be self-righting unless it's (wild guess) about 80' tall.

[rickthorn]

I agree that barges are not designed to be "self-righting", they just appealed to me because of the large amount of space that would be available. A vessel other than a barge would be better to consider, but again cost is very much the largest factor I face.

[Pericles]

Build a catamaran http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/ and power it with http://www.omerwingsail.com/

[rickthorn]

Thank you for your reply Pericles, unfortunately I need more interior space than a catamaran can offer and I wish for minimum length to be at least 80 foot. I wish to have much, much storage area and very large area for workshop and large gathering/dining area on outside deck.

[Pericles]

Look at these, before you discount catamarans completely.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gunboat+66&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gunboat+62&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

The hulls are large and the bridgedeck is cavernous.

[Tad]

We are getting some distance from dutch barges with Gunboat catamarans introduced to the thread.....;)

I have a few thoughts.....

First, smaller vessels are less obvious, lower profile, and probably less attractive targets for all kinds of bureaucracy, pirates, whatever. I would urge a smaller and less, "in your face", approach.

I think that something 60'-80' in length, with a beam of 24', could be easily driven (slowly) with smallish engines and some sail. If it was disguised as a tramp coaster it might be more easily accepted. Jay Benford has some designs (not intended for ocean work) that may be a useful starting point.

[masalai]

Right on Pericles, That is what I have chosen for SPACE and that does not mean "fill the space up with stuff" as weight penalises the cat format so learn to TRAVEL LIGHT, travel fast and leave the pets and the clutter in your life, on shore....

You do not need a lot of **** - Is not that why you are going boating?

[Tad]

Mas.....

Thankfully (what a boring world that would be) we don't all want the same thing....some want to get away from it all, others want to take it all along. Most of us fall someplace between extremes.

[rickthorn]

Thank you Pericles, I went to the "Gunboat" site and looked at the catamarans. They are large and beautiful, but I had neglected to mention above I must build myself and as cheaply as possible (probably impossible in itself.) I am retired and on very limited income, so my considerations for working on a vessel myself would be either steel or ferrocement. (Ferrocement scares me quite a bit...not so much weight, but in my life I have never seen concrete/cement which did not have cracks...scary thought for a ship, etc!) I have quite a few good books on building already and several design catalogs..."Small Ships" by Benford Design Group (plan prices unreal...so high!) Glen L and Clark Craft. I even had one catalog which listed several smaller, mostly flat top barges in it, but do not know what happened to that catalog and do not recall who it was by.

[masalai]

Wharram?

[pfennig]

I've been following the Dutch Barge LRC discussion with great interest. The catamarans seem a bit off topic (can't travel many of the routes the barges can - i.e. canals). The design I've been working on isn't quite a Dutch Barge in styling, but it's closer in concept.

http://i36.tinypic.com/334lpoh.jpg

It's modeled in SketchUp.

It's similar to a barge in that it's mostly flat bottomed (though it has some rocker to it, rather than purely flat). It is designed for live-aboard for two only, though the 'cargo hold' is big enough to host dinner for 4 or 5. I've made sure the design is compatible with UK canals (http://www.barging.co.uk/ukcruising.htm) - the draft is 3'1", the maximum width is 10'10", and the air draft can easily be reduced to only 6'6" by collapsing the masts and the house:
http://i33.tinypic.com/axcvnc.jpg

The dinghy is also a dory form, and is designed to be lashed down over the aft cockpit for long distance cruising:
http://i34.tinypic.com/9q8nme.jpg

Particulars:
Length Over All: 45'6"
Length @ Waterline: 40'10"
Beam Over All: 10'10"
Beam @ Waterline: 8'5"
Draft: 3'1"
Air draft, house up: 8'5"
Air draft, house down: 6'6"
Headroom: 6'1" throughout
Construction: Ply over frames (standard 2-by-X throughout)

I haven't calculated displacement necessary to reach those numbers - i'm a doodler, not a nautical engineer. But using George Buehler's Pilgrim (http://georgebuehler.com/Pilgrim.html) dory design as a guideline, it ought to be very light, around 12000 lbs. Power should be minimal, around 10-20 hp according to Buehler. Buehler calculates some overly optimistic range numbers for Pilgrim (70 mpg @ 6.4 knots to 15 mpg @ 8.6 knots), but I would expect excellent economy of operation as well as construction.

My basic "aha" moment was basically realizing that the dory shape is essentially a barge shape that has had it's ends sharpened significantly and the sides flared out. And the Dory shape is supposed to be very seaworthy. I've heard the term "insanely survivable" used, though in the same sentence as "uncomfortable" :rolleyes: The pointed bow also makes it easier to add a mast in a big tabernacle without intruding on living space. Sail assist is a plus.

I definitely prefer the aesthetics of true 'dutch barge' style replicas, but I doubt they would be as easy or cheap to build for an amateur. And the dory aesthetics are growing on me - it's also a 'traditional' design.

Thoughts?

[pfennig]

Oh, and I forgot to mention, that with such low power requirements and large topside areas, you can put 3 kW worth of solar panels (assuming 20% efficiency, which is not completely out of the question) on it and use batteries for internal ballast (careful with the water chaps) and be largely fuel-independent with an electric motor. I drew in a 4.8 kW generator anyway - if building on the cheap, you could go with just the generator until you save enough to bolt on another solar panel.

Grand Banks Dory Long Distance Cruiser Diesel Solar Electric Hybrid. It just rolls off the tongue :D

[masalai]

I would not like to go out open ocean cruising though - - - seems quite appropriate for canals?

[FAST FRED]

Buehler calculates some overly optimistic range numbers for Pilgrim (70 mpg @ 6.4 knots to 15 mpg @ 8.6 knots), but I would expect excellent economy of operation as well as construction.

70 mpg would require 1/10 of a gal in fuel burn per hour.

Most 5 hp diesels idle using more fuel.

FF

[pfennig]

Yep, did I mention that the numbers were overly optimistic? ;)

I have not 'run the numbers' myself, nor do I know the exact formulas to use, nor why the formulas may not apply in this case (too long/narrow/light for standard formula simplifications?), but I would optimistically aim for 10 mpg at displacement speed (smooth water, no wind, etc). Take Buehler's numbers and divide by 7 perhaps?

I'm a little more curious as to whether the low HP requirements Buehler expects are reasonable. If it only takes 1.9 HP (1.416 kW) to go 6.37 knots at a V/L of 1.0, as Buehler claims, the possibility of solar power (with generator backup) is real. Electric motors have lots of torque, just like the big old <10 hp diesels from 'the old days' that drove largish boats, so an electric drivetrain might be just the ticket.