Dutch Barge long distance cruisers [Archive] - Page 2

Tad

12-11-2008, 11:26 AM

Yep, did I mention that the numbers were overly optimistic? ;)

As we've gone over before, (another thread which may turn up in search) the fuel use/HP numbers on Buehler's web site are completely mistaken. I have no idea why he doesn't correct them. There are lot's of his designs out there right now using far more fuel/HP than he quotes, yet the real life facts are ignored? He claims the 45' will use something like 12 HP to go 6.5 knots, IRL the boat requires 52 HP to do this speed, I have the fuel use numbers from the owner.

Estimating weight quickly is a key to good design. You can't draw the boat until you know how big (volume wise) the hull needs to be, but you don't know how big the hull needs to be until you know the weight. You don't know the weight until you've drawn the boat.....gaaa! Circular problem!

One easy first stab is to use the cubic number multiplied by a factor for the loading/material/construction/equipment. Cubic number is length*beam*hull depth (main deck to fairbody)/100. Multiply by something between .25 and .45 for ultra-light foam core to steel construction. That's a first guess displacement in long tons.

Your boat (the dory above) is 45' by 10.83' by (say) 5' /100 = 24.36 * .35 = 8.52t = 19,000 pounds. This would be close. It's hard to imagine a true cruiser (with the equipment assoc.) coming out any less than this, more likely more.

10mpg is not easy to achieve, it's rare in real life. See the sheet below.
27550

RCardozo

07-31-2009, 09:13 PM

Attached, I Think. Soorry I am so late.Hi, Cardozo!
Could you post pictures of your barge?
Cheers.

RCardozo

07-31-2009, 09:33 PM

If these barges are so unseaworthy how is it that both the english and the Dutch had them running all over the coast? On New Years eve 2008 I crossed from Baltimore across the Chesapeake bay to Kent Narrows. The wind gusted to 65 mph and the seas were running 10' and peaking to 12' by the time we crossed the bay. Now the wind was dead astern but the boat was bone dry because of the high rounded stern. The biggest problem was steerage since the seas were comming so fast that the prop would have to fight for control being out of the water probably 25% of the time. Now I would not want to be getting that sea from the following quarter. ( the boat would roll so much you would be beaten alive) I have had the vessel heading into 7' seas on the bow quarter and she doent roll as much, justs blasts thru the waves. Think car wash. What people for get is that these were sailboats! My barge is cutter rigged with a 1200 s.f. gaf main and a jib and fore sail. There are many sail combinations to get the trim right. Regardless the boat heals so the effect is that of a steadying sail on a motor cruiser. I do not doubt that they picked their times but I am sure they could weather a blow in the north sea as least as long as it took to get to port. Also my barge is a zeetTjalk. These wewre of heavier construction so they could be bonded to cary cargo in more exposed locations. Now I would avoid hurricane season but getting from miami to the Bahamas would be a cake walk. I have been told my barge has been all over the Carribean! As a yacht w/o cargo but adequately ballasted I am sure it exhibits much more seaworthiness than you are giving credit. Now as only a motor yacht you are more vulnerable to the roll. Any boat running perpendicular to a high sea is gonna be battered around. I defend my barge to the death! Long live the barge!TheyHi Pierre, If you want to build a Dutch Barge, sea worthiness would be classified as going outside when it's flat calm. By in large, Dutch style barges are inland boats and would be great on the ICW. You would still have to carefully watch when crossing large inlets with high sea condition. The more prudent skippers would wait for calmer conditions. In most cases, a personally built barge will probably be flat bottom in order to get into the shallows with light draft. With any condition beyond moderate, flopper stoppers might help, but are expensive and put a lot of strain on the vessel's structure. Better give those specs that you're drawing up a lot of consideration if you plan to do much cruising on the outside.

Our company is currently drawing 2 sets of specs and plans. One for a Dutch Style Barge that is 48' x 12' with an 80 Hp engine and the other is 60' x 15'. The first is of strip plank construction and the second is made with sheets of plywood scarfed together. Both are covered with fiberglass and all wood epoxy coated inside and out. The thrust here is to develop economical barges for ICW, canal and river cruising in moderate conditions and to be fitted out with standard house furniture that is well secured.

RCardozo

07-31-2009, 10:07 PM

Sorry I have been away and not paying attention. I have heard rumors of Dutch Sailing Barges making trans Ocean voyages. I would love to hear about one. I would be very leery of it. In very heavy seas the barge may just split in half. Its bottom is not going to cleave the seas so much as smack into them. I know a 60' Dutch Sailing Barge near Tampa for sale fore 150,000. Another option is to get it rigged to be hoisted and see if you can get a captain to ship it. I beleive they can haul on their own account at their discretion. It may be cheaper. My 73' Dutch barge was brought from Holland after ww2 on a ship.Thanks for getting back to me. At the moment the cost is currently $45000

Greenseas2

08-01-2009, 06:10 AM

There's been a lot of good information in the responses to this thread, and there have also been a lot of deviations from it, but still good information. The original intent was to foster designs for a cruising Dutch style barge for cruising the inland waterway systems of the United States, sans coastal and ocean passages except in flat calm weather. The second intent was the development of an easy to build live aboard barge type cruiser for a small family. The bulding medium being basically plywood cored fiberglass and epoxy to both protect and stiffen the hull. I agree that the length is probably in the 40 to 48 foot range.

Several larger ocean capable fishing fishing vessels have been built using this medium, so why would it be any more difficult to build a Dutch Style barge the same way. To save construction costs, some of the ply bulkheads are also and integral part of the design and take place of ribs. These would be the bulkhead behind the chain locker in the bow, a midship bulkhead with opening to the quarters and head forward, the engine room forward water tight bulkhead and engine room aft watertight bulkhead. This is also the method used by the late Philip Bolger in his AS-29 and AS-39 ocean sailing advanced sharpies. (29 feet and 39 feet respectively)

Within the scope of the design parameters for a nice flat bottom long distance cruising Dutch style barge design there is no real need for rocket science and tons of technical data, just something that is functional, relatively inexpensive to build and has the beautiful aesthetics of a Dutch Barge. To reboot this design effort, let's consider the stiffening concerns of the hull that have been stated as an issue. The hull structure between the bottom and the deck can be something like and egg crate where the scarfed lengthwise plywood has cuts that go half way through the thin beams every 14 to 18 inches or so. The cross plywood sections are also cut halfway through and neatly fit in to the lengthwise section. All surfaces are epoxy covered and the lengthwise and crosswise sections are epoxied together. This is an extremely strong structure that will not permit the hull to twist. The same method is used on the sides of the of the boat with larger spacing and attached to the bottom crosswise members at their end. Also the design provides a plethora of mini watertight crash bulkheads and and flotation chambers when external and internal epoxy coated plywood sheathing is attached. see how it works and see the incredible strength, simply make a model with cardboard. No muss, no fuss, no hassle.

The need for a simply and inexpensively built barge is well justified in the loss of of an untold number of homes worldwide today by foreclosure. and the loss of personal boats to reposession along with a pathetic resale and value market for both.

Greenseas2

08-02-2009, 08:41 AM

Just to give you some idea of what can be done with a bit of plywood, type in to the Google search engine,"Hannu's Boat Yard". We are in the process of building the Half Pea and short dory for our own enjoyment. If boats like these can be built by total amateurs, designing and building a plywood Dutch style barge should present no problem. By the way, Hannu's boat plans are ALL FREE. The dory designs are truly beautiful, easy to build and easy on the wallet.

Tad

08-02-2009, 11:26 AM

designing and building a plywood Dutch style barge should present no problem.

Hummmmm........

This thread is now three years old.....Greenseas was to deliver plans for a Dutch style barge roughly a year ago...did that happen? Are any under construction?

Stating that designing and building a largish (38'??? at last mention?) "should present no problem" is apparently not really the case. After 255 responses and 39,000+ views there is no apparent progress.......how can you state that it presents no problem?

Design and construction of any vessel presents dozens of problems.....which is why it is not that common.

1) Design hours.....who will pay a skilled person to prepare a workable design? Not Greenseas...presently building from free plans.
2) Construction materials.....I'm afraid you need to price out plywood and epoxy, building a good sized barge will require more than a "bit" of both. Dozens of sheets of plywood and tens of gallons of epoxy are not "easy on the wallet". This is one of the main drawbacks.....how does Joe Sixpack afford construction materials when he can barely afford to fill the gas tank in his car?
3) Construction site costs....large rental fees...equipment, buildings, tools, security....massive costs not included in the material cost.
4) labour costs....is your time worth nothing? Building a boat means you are not doing something else...like earning a living.
5) Systems and equipment costs.....huge
6) moorage....where and at what cost...additional services like garbage, sewage, water, phone, etc...

This is why it is far more expensive to build new rather than buy an existing boat (very inexpensive in today's market) and move aboard.

Greenseas2

08-02-2009, 11:43 AM

I believe that your asessment of the difficulty in building a plywood barge is somewhat over stated. Existing imported Dutch barges are few and extremely expensive here. Yes,building one will cost some money and time, but it can be done by keeping the goal in sight rather distractions and detractors. Let's face it, the main part of a Dutch style barge is a big wooden Velveta cheese box. The rest takes a little time to work out. With a relative amount of intelligence, I don't believe a naval architect and associated costs are really necessary. Of course, a person can make a paper airplane and apply space technology to the process if one wishes....somewhat wasteful energy.
Cheers

Pericles

08-02-2009, 12:43 PM

Selway Fisher offer the opportunity to build an epoxy/ply composite barge. http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mcover30.htm#HAW

However, here's another idea. SIPS panel are used in house construction. Here's one site, there are many.
http://www.hemsecsips.com/

Encapsulate such panels in epoxy and glasscloth and a slab sided vessel could be easily constructed--------------perhaps!!

Foam is not what I would use as I have reservations about its strength in a collision. I therefore considered foamed glass, http://www.foamglas.co.uk/building/home/ as it does not absorb water, but its surface is too friable and the ply delaminated upon impact. I hit it with a sledge hammer.:D

Gentlemen, I offer you this gem of inspiration. I do not seek thanks or financial reward. After all this idea may just be a croc' o' s''', but cork is the coming thing and you did NOT hear this from me. When waste cork particles are heated under pressure, a natural resin is released, which bonds the particle into blocks that are sliced into slabs for insulation purposes. These slabs are strong, stable and water resistant. Scroll to bottom of pdf.
http://www.apcork.co.uk/Products.pdf

It floats, I tell you, it floats!! Noah could have been Portuguese.

Greenseas2

08-02-2009, 02:55 PM

Hi Pericles, good to see you back in the loop. The cork idea was totally unknown to me but any new boat building medium is well worth investigating. The Selway Fisher strip plank barge is a nice one and should be a moderately easy build for someone a whole lot younger than me. The only change I would make there is with that fishing boat pilothouse. I wrote to Paul Fisher as I was unable to find any data or even a reference to a Teign River Gravel Barge as he calls it even though I did find information on the Teign River itself. Must be a local thingy. That particular design is as close as I've seen to what we're working toward. Thanks for your input.

apex1

08-02-2009, 04:10 PM

I believe that your asessment of the difficulty in building a plywood barge is somewhat over stated. ........Yes,building one will cost some money and time, but it can be done by keeping the goal in sight rather distractions and detractors. Let's face it, the main part of a Dutch style barge is a big wooden Velveta cheese box. The rest takes a little time to work out. With a relative amount of intelligence, I don't believe a naval architect and associated costs are really necessary.
Cheers

A Teign River Barge, takes some money and a little time yah?
look here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/22m-cruising-cat-design-concept-23644-6.html

And why does it happen here on every second thread that the amateur calls the professional biased?

I know the answer, and I´m sure when I say how it is, we have the next fight here with all the premature statements about ones integrity, education and skills.
But I do!

Almost every amateur "boat dreamer" opening a thread here is looking for a confirmation of his dreams and applause, not for a critical scrutinizing or constructive critics or denials. And because they are not willing to leave their point of view and follow good advice they ALL end up having no boat! As long as I contribute to this Forum there was not a single one of these "dream designers"** coming to a point where building (of a then mature design) took place! NOT A SINGLE ONE !!!!
** a pretty bold claim btw. none of them was able to "design" a vessel, not one....

So, do we waste our time here?
Sometimes yes, when the stubborn kid starts fighting with the pro´s.
Usually not, when we can provide enough valid advice in general, to let other readers have a profit of the thread.

Regards
Richard

wardd

08-02-2009, 04:51 PM

A Teign River Barge, takes some money and a little time yah?
look here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/22m-cruising-cat-design-concept-23644-6.html

I plan on building something along the lines of the QE2 only bigger in my back yard

positive comments only please

wardd

08-02-2009, 05:48 PM

the cart may be a problem

apex1

08-02-2009, 05:50 PM

I plan on building something along the lines of the QE2 only bigger in my back yard positive comments only please

Wardd that is a proven design and was a good performer, so should´nt be a serious problem assuming your back yard has a wide waterfront and a sort of beaten path where you can pull a two wheeled cart to bring the steel plates to the place. The rest is just some time and some money, you know.

Ah, another point, borrow a torch for some days, that is a great help frying the crap together!!!

I hope that was positive enough! If not, I deeply regret.

apex1

08-02-2009, 05:57 PM

the cart may be a problem

You are negative, destructive and not worth a professional advice!!! I leave that topic now (you have´nt deserved more).

Greenseas2

08-02-2009, 05:58 PM

Hi Richard. In part I agree with your point of view. Over my 71 years I have been a ship master that came up through the ranks for 4 decades. In doing so, I also managed to build 11 small boats for rental purposes, totally restore to almost new a 1927 lobster boat, 31 foot Pacemaker, 28 foot twin screw Chris Craft bullnose, a 1937 Mathews and a 47 Pacemaker, the last two having been in charter service in New Jersey. All of the above were wooden. I have seen some really nice home designed and built boats over the years that required both dedication and some money to build. As credentials go, my degree is in applied physics so I do have some idea of boat construction. If the desire is there by an amateur, I am sure that the job can be done; however, as you say, few will probably accomplish building the boat. This was a foregone conclusion in starting the thread in the first place. I too could sit down and list the negatives of a project, but why take away someones enjoyable evenings at the kitchen table with pencil and drafting paper sketching a barge of their dreams. Perhaps, just by chance, someone will carry through in designing and building a Dutch Style barge. There are several wooden barge designs on the market so why would someone go to the expense of hiring a naval architect when the existing plans are much less expensive? Cheers

Greenseas2

08-02-2009, 06:18 PM

Hi Tad, I didn't mean to sharp shoot your input. Some of naval architect friends are Tom MacNaughton, Jay Benford, the late Phil Bolger and others that are mostly in the ship building industry. I hope the impression was not to demean the professionalism of naval architects. What I attempted to illustrate is that usually the costs charged by naval architects is rather high for an amateur and the design of a flat bottom liveaboard barge just isn't that complex, especially with few compound curves except maybe with an eliptical stern or tumblehome transom. I have seen many of the Glen-L amateur built houseboats in the northwest and rivers in central states, and the barge represents roughly the same degree of difficulty. The thread is particularly geared to amatuers and the occassional new building techniques that pop up from time to time;) ;) .By the way, one reason that plywood barge plans weren't published is that my wife and I spent quite a bit of time in Tahiti, Bora Bora and other Polynesian islands, then proceeded to Kirabati and then through the Hawaiian Islands and spend some time on Waikiki. This year it's 4 weddings in a row, plus graduations from high school etc., enough to put boat design on the back burner temporarily.
Cheers.

apex1

08-02-2009, 06:27 PM

[QUOTE] but why take away someones enjoyable evenings at the kitchen table with pencil and drafting paper sketching a barge of their dreams.

That would´nt be nice, I agree.

There are several wooden barge designs on the market so why would someone go to the expense of hiring a naval architect when the existing plans are much less expensive? Cheers

Fully concur, the Selway Fishers for example are very cheap plans, and there is no need to reinvent such design.

But I found the statement "some money and time" in the context a bit besides reality. Even a simple English river barge of 12 or so meters is a 2 years project at least.

Ad Hoc

08-02-2009, 08:00 PM

"...Perhaps, just by chance, someone will carry through in designing and building a Dutch Style barge. There are several wooden barge designs on the market so why would someone go to the expense of hiring a naval architect when the existing plans are much less expensive? Cheers.."

I have done exactly that for a client several years ago. He wanted it in aluminum though, not wood. He ran out of money half way through the project too...so the yard was left with a bare hull that sat in the builders yard for a few years before being "sent somewhere", never knew what happend to it..?!

Greenseas2

08-03-2009, 05:26 AM

Wonder what the price of scrap aluminum was at that time? With any boat building project, the potential builder needs to put together a comprehensive plan, somewhat like a business plan. This includes the cost of materials, a location to build the boat and all of the other variables. Some of these items may be gotten by taking quotes from the various sources. In calculating time, weather days have to be included. P times 4 (piss poor prior planning) will sink a project every time. In truth, project affordability is the single factor that results in a project failure. A projection on funds programmed over a period of time is the better way to go rather than trying to lump sum the project as well as knowing approximately what the end cost will be.

Ad Hoc

08-03-2009, 05:29 AM

Yes, it was a case of 4xP. and delusions of grandeur!

rickthorn

08-04-2009, 01:19 AM

We are getting some distance from dutch barges with Gunboat catamarans introduced to the thread.....;)

I have a few thoughts.....

First, smaller vessels are less obvious, lower profile, and probably less attractive targets for all kinds of bureaucracy, pirates, whatever. I would urge a smaller and less, "in your face", approach.

I think that something 60'-80' in length, with a beam of 24', could be easily driven (slowly) with smallish engines and some sail. If it was disguised as a tramp coaster it might be more easily accepted. Jay Benford has some designs (not intended for ocean work) that may be a useful starting point.

I have the Benford Catalogs, unfortunately the big problem is pretty much all the designs are what i consider extremely expensive for plans. I could not even approach the costs to order any of the plans. That is way out of my league cost wise, I would be more in the "ClarkCraft" or "Glen-L". range.

Greenseas2

08-04-2009, 07:16 AM

Jay gave me a copy of his catalog at the Annapolis boat show when he, Rubin and Jerry Trane were displaying the Florida Bay Coaster. We had several meaningful exchanges on the potential market for a small frieghter design cruising boat in the years before he actually did the design work. While his designs are top notch, they incorporate a lot of compound curves that are not conducive to amateur boat construction. A better representation might be the 25 foot stretched verson of Berkeley Eastman's 14 foot Candu-ez tug. It's the yellow one in the Berkeley_Engineering web site.(www.Berkeley_Engineering.com). That hull design and building method could be stretched easily for a motor barge hull and incorporates the round stern and tumble home transom with good instructions for the building of the boat Another canal cruising hull was designed by Tom MacNaughton and is worthwhile looking at although it departs from the traditional Dutch style barge appearance, and Tom doesn't state what the interior head room might be. You have to do some research to determine what design and construction medium is right for you.

rickthorn

08-05-2009, 12:33 AM

I would like to discuss "AFFORDABLE" plans (less than $200. U.S.) for simple designs of motor barges made from steel ONLY.

Ad Hoc

08-05-2009, 12:34 AM

Define "affordable"..?

Greenseas2

08-05-2009, 07:05 AM

I believe that the only affordable steel barge plans might be from designers such as Paul Fisher at Selway Fisher Designs who has a design for a 45 footer; however, I also believe that the price of the plans will greatly exceed $200. In building the barge itself, unless you are personally an experienced ship welder with MIG or TIG equipment, you are looking at a very long and expensive building process. Perhaps some of the steel barge builders can address this issue for you. Steel is definitely a good medium to build in if high quality steel and finishes are used. If you look back through this thread, you will find that there is good input from other folks regarding construction in steel.

apex1

08-05-2009, 07:29 AM

I would like to discuss "AFFORDABLE" plans (less than $200. U.S.) for simple designs of motor barges made from steel ONLY.

Mate, the first steel supply even in the Phillipines will be far more than 200$ so, what are we talking here? Selway Fisher plans are unbelievable cheap. If that is too much or "unaffordable" the whole boat is!

Ad Hoc

08-05-2009, 08:00 AM

My design/plans are not cheap...but they define all you need to construct. You only get what you pay for...

wardd

08-05-2009, 08:58 AM

so steel for the QE2 build would be more than $200?

jollyrover

09-01-2009, 04:21 PM

I just joined this forum and have followed the Dutch barge discussion.
I am in the process of purchasing a Dutch sailing barge and have been looking at them and reading about them for twenty years. I am wondering how to reach Rcardozo of Maryland who has posted on this forum. I had a deposit on a 72' Tjalk that was in St. Martin. He/she owns a 72' Tjalk in Maryland. Can anyone help?
FYI - If anyone would like to see one - there are a group of Dutch Sailing Barges in New York for the Henry Hudson 400th anniversary celebration for the entire month of September/09.! They are scheduled to be at the American Yacht Club in Rye New York right now, then at Hempstead Harbour in Glen Cove, Long Island on the 9/8/09, then on to the Atlantic Basin in Brooklyn on 9/9/09 before they will be on display at Governor's Island in Manhattan next Saturday 9/12/09. After that display they will travel up the Hudson River to Albany and back down to Manhattan before they are loaded onto a ship and sent back to Holland.

mwatts

09-02-2009, 03:45 AM

the Holland.

:D I live in "the Holland". Right opposite (literally 25 metres) a shipyard where they do nothing else than (re)build steel barges. So if anybody wants some pictures of how they are constructed, let me know. ;)

This is the shipyard:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/mrwatts/barge.jpg

It should be noted that these ships lend themselves very well for building in parts. This is what is often done by the people operating these ships. E.g. they save up the money to buy a new foward section. When they have the money, they have the old section removed and have a new forward section built. Then they operate the boat again for a few years, saving up for a new aft section. After they have a new aft section, they save up for a new (often extended) mid section, etc. etc... There used to be a whole industry doing nothing else than just extending barges for a long time.

So maybe it is an option to have the sections build in a country where it's cheap to do so, have the sections shipped individually to wherever it's got to go, and connect them up there...

An original dutch barge will start at about 50.000 euro's up to anything like 250.000: http://watersport.marktplaats.nl/beroepsscheepvaart/251577099-kempenaar-ideaal-om-woonschip-van-te-maken.html

SamSam

09-02-2009, 07:45 AM

Jay gave me a copy of his catalog at the Annapolis boat show when he, Rubin and Jerry Trane were displaying the Florida Bay Coaster. We had several meaningful exchanges on the potential market for a small frieghter design cruising boat in the years before he actually did the design work. While his designs are top notch, they incorporate a lot of compound curves that are not conducive to amateur boat construction. A better representation might be the 25 foot stretched verson of Berkeley Eastman's 14 foot Candu-ez tug. It's the yellow one in the Berkeley_Engineering web site.(www.Berkeley_Engineering.com (http://www.Berkeley_Engineering.com)). That hull design and building method could be stretched easily for a motor barge hull and incorporates the round stern and tumble home transom with good instructions for the building of the boat Another canal cruising hull was designed by Tom MacNaughton and is worthwhile looking at although it departs from the traditional Dutch style barge appearance, and Tom doesn't state what the interior head room might be. You have to do some research to determine what design and construction medium is right for you.

This takes you directly to the site...http://www.berkeley-engineering.com/

SamSam

09-02-2009, 08:00 AM

:DI live in "the Holland". Right opposite (literally 25 metres) a shipyard where they do nothing else than (re)build steel barges. So if anybody wants some pictures of how they are constructed, let me know. ;)

This is the shipyard:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/mrwatts/barge.jpg

It should be noted that these ships lend themselves very well for building in parts. This is what is often done by the people operating these ships. E.g. they save up the money to buy a new foward section. When they have the money, they have the old section removed and have a new forward section built. Then they operate the boat again for a few years, saving up for a new aft section. After they have a new aft section, they save up for a new (often extended) mid section, etc. etc... There used to be a whole industry doing nothing else than just extending barges for a long time.

So maybe it is an option to have the sections build in a country where it's cheap to do so, have the sections shipped individually to wherever it's got to go, and connect them up there...

An original dutch barge will start at about 50.000 euro's up to anything like 250.000: http://watersport.marktplaats.nl/beroepsscheepvaart/251577099-kempenaar-ideaal-om-woonschip-van-te-maken.html

Please post more photos! The idea of adding on as money is available is new to me. It would seem adding on middle sections would make the most sense as there would be no rebuilding of anything, just new sections added. I imagine additions are welded, but I suppose they could be bolted together. Anyway, please post more photos!

mwatts

09-02-2009, 08:24 AM

Here's a pic of a new 60m mid section for a barge (existing front and aft ship are rejoined later):

http://www.scheepswerfpoppen.nl/images/werkz/nb_4a.jpg

And this is one of the newly built ships of the last couple of years built by the yard (no she's not sinking ;)):

http://www.ms-primo.nl/images/10-03-2007%20001.jpg

I'll have a look at the yard to see what's going on, this weekend or so... Are there any particular things you are interested in?

SamSam

09-02-2009, 08:42 AM

I'll have a look at the yard to see what's going on, this weekend or so... Are there any particular things you are interested in? Do they ever work on the smaller canal barges that people live on?
What time is it there, should'nt you be sleeping? ;)

mwatts

09-02-2009, 08:56 AM

Do they ever work on the smaller canal barges that people live on?
What time is it there, should'nt you be sleeping? ;)

It's 15:50 over here. I should be working... ;)
They don't work that often on the smaller canal barges anymore. Those small barges are becoming more and more scarce, as it's not really profitable to operate one, not enough to sustain a family. They don't have any advantages anymore over trucks (with polish drivers)... :(

There are only a couple of "small" barges left that operate on some of the smaller canals and can get thru some of the smaller locks.

But I guess the principles and hull shape are still the same. It's all just a lot bigger now.

SamSam

09-02-2009, 09:21 AM

"It's 15:50 over here." I have a 24 hour clock and had to take it out to the workshop. It frustrated the family too much. This is what they always did when they looked at it....:confused:

RCardozo

07-21-2010, 06:46 PM

I have been reading these posts and there is a lot of confusion about these vessels. I own the "Morgenster" ("Morning Star" in Dutch). She is a Dutch 73' sailing barge built in 1893 in Leiderdorp Holland. She is constructe of hammered iron plates rivetted together. This is similar to mild steel. These vessels were built to haul smaller cargo loads in canals rivers and coastal areas. I am in Baltimore on The Chesepeake bay. The bay is a shallow estuary similar to the former inland seas of Holland. My vessel was built before the combustion engine took over so it is sail powered. The mast is on a hinge so it can be lowered to go under bridges and sell produce in town via the canal system. Being a cargo vessel the design is to maximize blockage for cargo. Lots of space, easy in and easy out. The flat bottom reduced draft and allowed the boats to beach at low tide load cargo and then float off at high tide. My draft is 3'. The leeboards on the sides were used to avoid the maintenance and inconvenience of a center well and they also utilize an airfoil curve to assist in windward performance. When power came on the scene the hull shape changed with more pointed bows and no leeboards. Since these boats were carrying cargo they were very heavily loaded. The big rounded bow and stern added buoyancy to keep from being over taken by seas. The weather a barge can handle has a lot to do with the load. Since use as a yacht is very lightly loaded a Dutch barge can handle some rough seas. I have had mine out in the bay in 65 mph winds and 12-15 seas and she did fine since we were running with the wind. Now bear in mind with a flat bottom and 17' beam the last thing you will do is want to go broadside to the seas. That is the vulnerability because it will roll and scare you to death or beat you to death or capsize. I can't see blie water use of a dutch barge but it can do coastal use in rough weather if you behave. In summary these boats are very safe if handled correctly. Once motoring acros the Neuse river in NC. there was a 6' sea coming from the aft quarter. The speed of the seas and the speed of the barge were just so that the boat set up a harmonic and a gentle roll that slowly increased to 45 degrees! Slowing down stopped it. If I was bow or stern to the wind no problem. Even with strong seas off the bow quarter she justs pounds through. I would not hesitate to take the boat across the English Channel and many have. Trade between France and Holland and England had these vessels going to and fro all the time. Now the captains were not stupid. I doubt they went out with only 12" of freeeboard which was not unusual in a canal. Anyway that is enough for now. Greenseas knows what he is saying. Seaspark is a tad pessimistic.
I love my barge. (A man and his barge is a beautiful thing).

Alec & Henry

09-05-2010, 10:55 AM

brian eiland

10-08-2010, 09:48 AM

brian eiland

04-08-2011, 10:36 AM

There are two parts of the design that leave me cold. The first is the stern with outboard rudder. I like the traditional round stern. The second is the pilothouse is not of the traditional Dutch barge design with helm station , around seating and table found in most replicas and commercial barges. I understand thAt Paul Fisher is designing a 45 foot barge to be built in steel. Hopefully that one will be more traditional. The advantage of building your own is that you can install additional fuel tanks during the building process.
Most of the European precut kits that I have seen are too expensive for the average person to build and furnish. A Naval Architect friend of mine, Tom MacNaughton has designed a canal barge also, but the pilothouse here also leaves something to be desired. For ICW, northern canals and river work, it wouldn't be too hard to design a barge to be built of plywood, fiberglass cloth and epoxy in the 45 foot length. The key to the suitability of the Dutch barge design is liveability and cruising with a small engine for long distances without the frequent need to refuel and take on water. Your thoughts?
Geenseas,
I just started review this subject thread again after a long hiatus, so I'm starting from the beginning. Can you tell me if you expanded on Tom's design(s), and where specifically that material is??
Regards, Brian

cthippo

04-09-2011, 01:53 PM

I know this is a thread necro, bit how do the European canal barges do in any kind of seas. Selway Fisher has a couple of designs I really like, but they're the traditional flat bottoms and so I don't know how they would work for my part of the world.

Pericles

04-09-2011, 02:08 PM

Ask Paul Fisher for his advice.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/contact_us.htm

Teign 45 is for coastal use, with a displacement of over 19 tons.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mcover30.htm#TEIGN

P

BATAAN

04-09-2011, 04:39 PM

Thanks for this great thread, I have read it all and its given me some great ideas.
I have a few questions that maybe can be answered by the readers.
I am a Florida native, I moved recently to Amsterdam and I have been exposed to all the great Dutch Barges (Amazing time at the 2010 Tall Ship sail meet)

I would like to have built a dutch boat, right now I am looking at Branson kits and steel but I have an interest in Aluminum, I want to keep the weight low so I can trailer the Barge from location to location. Looking at 36-40 feet, Aluminum or Steel, Diesel-Electric system with no drive shaft, Bow thruster and solar panels. Id like the wheel house to be retractable so I can have the best options for transport and for river cruising. Id like a Category B so I can cross the English Channel or hug the shore to Normandy.

I am going to outfit the barge in light aircraft material to keep the weight down and the space as open as I can.

Ive been in contact with many builders, trying to see what works best for me. Im hoping that 36-40 is big enough for two people on a part time live aboard. Any information/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for all your posts.
36-40 feet is adequate for two if you're frugal and ready for a small space. A barge yacht would be fairly long and narrow so imagine living in something smaller than a shipping container with five foot headroom except under the cabin house. Do-able but could use improvement.
Problem with barge yachts, well observed in Thames Barges adaptions, is that reducing length changes the dynamic a great deal. A 90 foot TB is a great sea boat properly loaded and handled (!!) but reduce it to 40 feet and it's a cranky bitch, showing how much length adds to stability.
I suspect trying to adapt large industrial Dutch barges, of similar L/B/Depth ratios, to a smaller yacht use, will have the same result.
Best to pick or commission a proven design of a new vessel, based on barge principles, with the reality of the small size, light aluminum weight, and different use.
Water ballast??
If you want shallow draft and proven performance, dead-simple and safe handling, combined with stunning beauty and long tradition look at a light-ish displacement junk/yacht like builder-designer-sailor Allen Farrell's stunning, simple, cheap CHINA CLOUD seen here in a 3 part, 40 minute video at the following youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RVUSTUDIO?feature=mhum#p/a (not the goat hunt video but in the menu).This adaptation of the "barge type" follows the path the Chinese have taken as adapted by a gifted builder, and the results are a truly artistic and seamanlike approach, given the long time commercial fishing background of the designer/builder and his knowledge of violent northern seas. The other vessel here, BERTIE, is a typical northern European 18th-19th century sloop/barge for beach cargoes but with a Chinese mainsail.

cthippo

04-10-2011, 01:05 PM

Ask Paul Fisher for his advice.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/contact_us.htm

Teign 45 is for coastal use, with a displacement of over 19 tons.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mcover30.htm#TEIGN

P

The Teign 45 and Humber 41 designs are both in my "book of designs I like", and I may yet drop the $45 to get study plans for them.

brian eiland

04-10-2011, 06:40 PM

brian eiland

04-10-2011, 07:02 PM

Dutch barges are in steel because:
A: it's cheap and strong.
B: It gives the desired weight to get volume in the boat.

See: http://www.euroshipservices.nl/
.....for plans and pictures (in Dutch)
Upon my start of a review of this thread I found this posting and link. This is a very interesting company with lots to offer all stages of building/securing a canal vessel.

I particularly liked this one
http://www.euroshipservices.nl/english/

...scroll down the colume on the left and look at "luxe motor 2000 deksalon"

EuroCanal

04-11-2011, 03:33 AM

...scroll down the colume on the left and look at "luxe motor 2000 deksalon"

I also like the Europships' designs - they are closer to the original hull shapes, with rounded bottoms and compound curves around the bow and stern. It makes them more sea-worthy (for wide canals and inland seas, I mean).

There's a 2005 Euroships 20m deksalon for sale at the moment - slightly different design. It's expensive at €685,000, (I seem to recall it was offered for €750,000 last year), but looks as good as new.

http://www.apolloduck.nl/feature.phtml?id=116718

... and there's an 2001 18m aft-cockpit, which, I think was Euroships' demonstrator:

http://www.apolloduck.nl/feature.phtml?id=73938

As always, it's cheaper to buy a recently built one than to build new, but the second-hand market in dutch barges took a hit in the last couple of years, so now more so than ever. You can also find casco hulls, sailaways or cancelled orders around if you willing to arrange the finishing yourself.

brian eiland

04-11-2011, 09:41 AM

....There's a 2005 Euroships 20m deksalon for sale at the moment - slightly different design. It's expensive at €685,000, (I seem to recall it was offered for €750,000 last year), but looks as good as new.

As always, it's cheaper to buy a recently built one than to build new, but the second-hand market in dutch barges took a hit in the last couple of years, so now more so than ever. You can also find casco hulls, sailaways or cancelled orders around if you willing to arrange the finishing yourself.
At those kind of prices it makes me wonder what we might build those for in Thailand??

EuroCanal

04-11-2011, 03:21 PM

At those kind of prices it makes me wonder what we might build those for in Thailand??

Dutch shipbuilders aren't the cheapest in the world, or even Europe, and Euroships is at the top end of the market. A more typical price for a new, finished Dutch Barge would be €240,000 (exc taxes), as offered by these builders:

http://www.hiboats.cz/cze/

The design is a simple hard-chine 33 tonne vessel. Euroships 20m is a beamier, taller 77 tonne boat with a deeper hull, and two decks of accommodation.

The level of equipment and finish won't be the same. Have a look at the engine room photos of the Euroships boats - it looks like they fit perforated aluminum sound proofing boards on the ceiling, and then put the gennie into a sound-insulating box within this room for extra quietness when the main engine is stopped. There's a lot of detail like this throughout the boat.

Greenseas2

04-13-2011, 06:07 AM

Without going to extremes in size, a barge of about 50 feet in length might be the ideal size for most applications. Paul Fisher of Selway Fisher designs just came out with a new barge hull design for plywood construction and is 49'9" in length, and about 10 feet in beam. Cruising long distances with low poweer translates to a vessel relatively long and narrow. You may want to look at Fisher's barge design.

Pericles

04-13-2011, 07:05 AM

That will be the Hinton 15. Thanks for the tip. I had not noticed it before.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mcover30.htm#HINTON

P

Greenseas2

04-13-2011, 07:26 AM

Being familar with Tom's designs to a degree, one unique feature of his barge design is that it can be lengthen easily. In reading past input to this thread, I can agree that the pilot house is too low and not "Dutchy"; however, I think the design is a good one for rivers and calm water cruising. One short fall I find with all cruising boat designs is that while the NA may recommend engine size, most fail to recommend fuel tank capacity to achieve a certain distance with normal loading. Too, designers of all manner of cruising vessels over state their capacity as a cruising vessel. While the advertisement may say " sleeps 6", in the next line they give the water tankage as "20 gallons". You've got to be kidding. LOL. The idea of "cruising" is to stay away from marinas and high dock fees as well as having to stop frequently for water or fuel. In most barge configurations there is more than enough space for adequate tankage without crowding accommodations.

brian eiland

04-13-2011, 08:59 AM

Thanks for the tip. I had not noticed it before.
P
Thanks Pericles, there is SO MUCH variable info/data on that site, its hard to find specifics.

Brian@BNE

04-14-2011, 12:49 AM

I inspected Genevieve in France just over two weeks ago. http://www.dutchbargegenevieve.com/index.htm

She is probably representative of where current values sit. John and Penny have done a 'light and bright' refurb. to make a very comfortable live-aboard and I quite like it, although would have done a few things a bit different. But I did not like it enough to make an offer. Its a lot more boat than I'm thinking about at this point.

Another H2O brokerage listing I inspected and really liked was "D'Air Niez Sous", an 11.6 x 4 m steel build barge in 2006. It had some very clever design features for the interior, I was most impressed. I think taking its concepts, but adding a bit more length would deliver a great canal/protected waters cruiser. Yes, 15m could be enough although I still hanker for more like 18m.

brian eiland

04-14-2011, 06:33 AM

....Another H2O brokerage listing I inspected and really liked was "D'Air Niez Sous", an 11.6 x 4 m steel build barge in 2006. It had some very clever design features for the interior, I was most impressed. I think taking its concepts, but adding a bit more length would deliver a great canal/protected waters cruiser. Yes, 15m could be enough although I still hanker for more like 18m.
Would you care to elaborate on these "clever design features" ??

Brian@BNE

04-14-2011, 09:48 PM

Ok, I guess a request for elaboration was to be expected... Overall, efficiency of space utilization, and flexibility/multi-use of areas illustrated careful thought and lots of boating experience had been input.

Starting at stern, with entry from the swim platform through the yacht-style door/sliding hatch entry on starboard there were a pair of single bunks, one on top of the other. On centreline there was a sliding door in 3 sections. When opened it revealed a double berth to port. The main cabin was in the bow. So, a 6 berth layout that really had no 'dead' areas even if only 2 aboard which might be 'normal'. The aft cabin can be opened up to be an extra day salon. But there is 3 cabin privacy when required, with access via the side door just behind the helm, on starboard side.

Dining on port side opposite helm was conventional. Folding large centre window near helm may not be that unusual, but would provide great ventilation in hot weather and is quick to open.

Galley area was basically very well planned and thought out, with effectively no waste space, with things like sliding pantries to give very good access to lots of storage. They were about 6" wide, probably 5' high and at least 2'6" deep. Compared to bending down and trying to reach the back of cupboards for stuff, they would be a godsend - no only lots of storage but you can easily see and access stuff readily. Of course push button locking catches on everything so nothing opened when it wasn't supposed to.

In total there were 2 showers and 2 heads. But all were in separate enclosures and with enough space to work, so even with a a full crew plus some day guests there would be adequate bathroom capacity.

Any drawbacks? Not much space to fish from at the stern, other than up high on the deck above the aft cabin. That area was a good size for 'outdoor entertaining' though. The boat had been built to charter, perhaps with periodic owner use. It had clearly been chartered more than once by careless fools. The broker indicated that superficial damage near stern and bow (scuffs and distortion of rub strakes) was to be repaired before sale. Fools not only hit things when maneuvering, they were rough on the interior cabinetry. The interior was well made as well as well designed, but wear and tear was apparent and some maintenance needed. A reminder that it really never pays to 'charter out' to help with annual costs....

Floor hatches at key places provided good access to mechanical's and plumbing etc, once again not uncommon but it was well done.

Given an extra 3m I'd probably allocate a fair bit of it to forward and aft cabins to get good desk spaces or room for a comfortable reading chair. If even more length then it would go into the salon for more comfortable seating - less of the caravan/motorhome dining experience which works well for eating but not for sitting and reading/relaxing for extended periods.

So, not sure if I've conveyed that much of what impressed but it was one of those rare inspections where you leave thinking: 'well, there's not much at all that I'd need to change, and a lot of it is better than I would have thought of myself'.

Greenseas2

04-17-2011, 07:20 AM

There are plenty of reasonably priced center cockpit sailboats on the market presently. Sailboats have greater effeiciency under much less power and therefore would be economical as a starter. It wouldn't be difficult to have the mast and rigging removed from a used center cockpit sailboat and build a barge style pilot house with around seating, a table and the helm and controls moved forward to a pilot house bulkhead. The pilot house deck could be elevated to the level of previous cockpit seats and have little effect on stability. The keel might even be cut down a bit for shallow water use. The center cockpit boats on the market run from around 30 feet up to 50 or 60 feet and already have accommodations installed. Prices run from around $4,000 and up but it's an easy and quick way to start cruising in something similar to a barge. You might even get a good price for the aluminum mast, stainless steel rigging and fittings to offset the cost of purchasing the boat. In the larger boats you can most likely find space for additional fuel and water tankage also. If you happen to get lucky and find a centerboard centercockpit sailboat, just remove the board or swing keel and seal up the slot when she's in the yard. There's still plenty of ballast to keep her stable.
Just thoughts.

brian eiland

05-08-2011, 08:25 PM

Brian, Here is mine. Somewhat smaller at 22m/72ft x 4.85m/15.5ft.
Colin Stone
www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk

That's quite a web reference you have there. Regrettable I don't have more time to review it at the moment.
Took me quite a long time before I really got around to review your website. WOW, lots of good info, and very interesting in-depth account of building process.

I would strongly recommend that anyone interested in this canal barge subject look thru your website:

Luxemotor 'KEI'

http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/overview.htm

The aim of this website is to provide an insight into the length, breadth and depth of the project to procure a new build dutch barge. It is a complex task and certainly on a par with attempting to build a house - in fact arguably a more complicated task as a ship has more systems. One should not under estimate the effect of length, or rather more accurately volume. A dutch barge may be the same length as a narrow boat at 60 - 70ft, but is likley to be twice the width and have more depth. The volume is probably 5 times that of a narrowboat. Costs mirror the increase in volume rather than length, with the requirement for bigger hull scantlings and more complex systems. Time is also an important consideration of time and often, however well intention, a days work often does not achieve much.

KEI is a 22m luxemotor barge designed and built for residential use and will be used as a permanent home. The size and style are, we feel, a good compromise of all the features that we thought a Dutch barge should include. Top of our priority list was the requirement that if one is going to have a "Dutch barge", then it should look like one and have the recognisable features and details of a traditional 1920's barge - even if this results in perhaps accommodation compromises. This requirement included such features as the proportion of hull to superstructure length, flowing lines, sheer in both the hull and superstructure, high quality steel work with lots of rounded corners and a good strong rubbing band and strake or "berghout" - after all operating on inland waterways is a contact sport and the opposition is mostly concrete. The berghout on KEI is a 60 x 30mm solid half round on a 15mm plate, so should be strong enough. We decided early on that it was absolutely essential to get the basic steel hull shape right - it is relatively easy to alter windows and interior lining etc etc details at a later date. The design and build has clearly worked as most people on seing KEI assume that it is an old 1920's barge converted - until they get close and realise that the hull does not yet show 80 odd years of history - despite our efforts so far!!.....(much more)

brian eiland

05-12-2011, 12:47 PM

Here is another GREAT reference website

New Build Barging.co.uk (http://www.barging.co.uk/index.htm)
(Including Replica Dutch Barges, River Barge, Broad Beam and Wide Beam narrowboat style barges)

The site covers all new build barges, including Replica Dutch Barges, River Barges, Broad Beam and Wide Beam narrowboat style barges. The site gives an indication of where in the UK (and European continent) a broad beam barge can cruise (map and chart) plus future plans of broad beam network across the UK.

There is also advice on buying a new build barge and the diy fit-out of 60ft Replica Dutch barge Elessina, including addressing some of the issues encountered during the barge buying process.

If you have an interest in boats and are considering a broad beam canal type boat / barge, you will most likely find something of interest amongst the following pages (if you wish to read all pages, click on the 'next page' hyperlink at the bottom of each page).

Lots of photos of various individual projects.

...and check out this gallery of photos:
http://www.barging.co.uk/newbuildphotos.htm (http://www.barging.co.uk/newbuildphotos.htm)

cthippo

05-12-2011, 04:35 PM

I know they're not really designed for it, but can the Dutch barges handle rough seas, say 3-4'? I'm toying with a similar design for my Kayak Tender project.

brian eiland

05-13-2011, 09:48 AM

Only recently I added a 'canal boat' link to another subject thread I was participating in, and it brought this dream back to the forefront of my mind.

Here is a linked page that goes to what I consider to be the most beautiful canal barge of them all, Roi Soleil.

http://www.bargesinfrance.com/roisoleil-pictures.htm (http://www.bargesinfrance.com/roisoleil-pictures.htm)

Here are some real nice videos of canal cruising onboard Roi Soleil

This first one in particular has some nice shots of the helm arrangement on this vessel...a subject I will cover in more detail in a subsequent posting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg5rYBqc12I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg5rYBqc12I)

...all 6 videos
http://www.youtube.com/user/RiverYachtRoiSoleil#g/u (http://www.youtube.com/user/RiverYachtRoiSoleil#g/u)

brian eiland

05-16-2011, 08:46 AM

Back to this point for the moment.

I really like the "looks" of a Dutch Barge but after cruising extensively on the eastern half of the USA I am loath to settle on anything right now. You might say that I am in a state of flux as to what I really want. A couple of years ago the Dutch Barge would have been perfect.

Some of the potential drawbacks for me: There are many many places along the ICW/River systems where the waterways are in miles wide and not yards. There are also many places where straight stretches will allow waves to build up with the winds from that direction. Add to this many windy days in the fall, spring and winter months combined with tides and you have many days even on these so called protected waters where moving is very uncomfortable in a flat bottom round chine boat.

Now we add in crab pots and twisty approaches to many gunkholes that I want to visit and now I want visibility and maneuverability. Pilot houses near the rear or center of a long boat would not be my idea of the perfect layout in these situations. To be honest, pilot houses near the bows and/or fly bridges look stupid on a Dutch Barge in my opinion.
The size of boat that I want seems to be shrinking while the utility, maneuverability and usuability is gaining big ground over creature comforts.

I certainly think that a Dutch Barge makes good sense for many people who want to liveaboard and travel the ICW. It depends on what you want to do, your lifestyle and where you want to go. The Dutch Barge makes a lot more sense than the average go-fast cruiser or express/cruiser from one of the major low end US boat manufactuers and is a damn sight better on the eyes.

There are compromises in all of boat design, and the flat bottom rectangular cross section of the canal barge possesses the greatest internal accommodation per length of vessel per fixed draft....just as do the ocean ranging tankers (admittedly the ocean tankers are normally operated in a fully loaded condition so as not to present their flat bottoms to the sea surface very often). But I believe that most shallow draft canal barges are destined to have this same sort of hull shape. Adding a very slight V to these flat bottoms accomplishes nothing in my opinion. Adding a 'keel plate' would add to their directional stability, and likely their resistance to sliding across the water's surface sideways. I'm thinking a somewhat exaggerated I-beam down the bottom's centerline, and with a portion of its bottom flange exposed to the exterior of the hull, would contribute to the vessel's longitudinal stiffness as well as its directional stability.

I take issue with your pilot house observations. As far as 'looking stupid', I would draw your attention the pilot house on Roi Soleil....I very much like this arrangement, both in terms of looks as well as practicality. Perhaps you would counter that this is not the 'traditional Dutch barge'.

I would much rather be up in the front of the vessel when I was trying to negotiate my way through obstacles in the water, or when I was attempting to dock a canal barge vessel, rather than aft and trying to pear over all of the obstacles that might be present on the forward deck. And look at Roi Soleil...both an inside and outside steering postion...marvelous!

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This steering position is also very close to the cleat onto which I would tie my spring line as I power into the dock or canal's edge.

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I also like the manner in which this forward pilot house almost dictates the upper- level cabin space that follows it. To have just the fwd pilot house would likely look rather weird, but with the added long saloon and galley we have a very delightful cabin with lots of natural lighting, a feeling of spaciousness, and great visibility outwards to the surroundings.

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Here we have a similar fwd helm station on a shorter vessel.
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Interestingly the roof's shape and height was dictated by the smallest bridge on the whole canal. The bridge's shape was used as a template for Roi Soleil's deckhouse.

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I find this roof shape particular attractive even thought it was dictated by a bridge contour. I would be very tempted to utilize the same shape on a new design vessel as this bold arch shape can also be of a structural advantage when tying together the two sidewalls of a very open interior arrangement as exist on Roi Soleil. This roof could be relatively easy to fashion out of cold-molded plywood/epoxy, and be very strong without little need of inside framing ('rafters' you might say). It also contributes to an overall lower profile of the vessel, which could become a more important factor on a shorter version of Roi Soleil. I imagine you might even make a great rainwater catchment of it, and/or a solar power collector with some of the very newest thin panel devices being developed.

Finally, another of those tight fits you find in the canals.

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