Fiberglass fire damage to a fiberglass boat

[Eagle Boats]

I am contemplating purchasing a boat that has been damaged by fire. The fiberglass appears to be mostly intact, but I was wondering if there may be problems that are not readily visible. Does anyone have any experience with such repairs, and if so, what I should be looking for.

Thanks

[marshmat]

If there's evidence of fire damage to the glass itself, it's probably a bad idea. Above 60, 80, 100 Celsius, depending on resin, the resins that hold fibreglass together begin to rapidly decompose, leaving weak spots and bubbles in the laminate. The result is hard and looks fine, but will fail catastrophically under a sudden load. I would strongly recommend retaining an accredited surveyor to do a thorough structural inspection. Without a good surveyor you have no way of knowing what is going on inside the possibly damaged laminates.

[Eagle Boats]

Thanks for the response. Its a lot easier to build new boats then to tackle a headache.

[SamSam]

Above 60, 80, 100 Celsius, depending on resin, the resins that hold fibreglass together begin to rapidly decompose, leaving weak spots and bubbles in the laminate. The result is hard and looks fine, but will fail catastrophically under a sudden load.
60 C= 140 F, 80 C= 176 F, 100 C = 212 F . It's not hard for a small fire in an enclosed space to build up these temperatures. It would seem that if that happens, not only would the skin of the hull itself be suspect but structural elements attached by fiberglass, such as bulkheads glassed to the hull, might be compromised first as they would be inside and surrounded on both sides by heat. At what temperatures do common boatbuilding resins of polyester, vinylester and epoxy sustain damage? What is the order of durability of the three? Sam

[marshmat]

Order of durability: In general, epoxy is best; vinyl- and poly- ester resins are 2nd and 3rd respectively. Ambient-cure resins are rarely good for service temperatures over 80 C (which, incidentally, is a standard post-cure temperature for most ambient cure systems). Heat WestSystem epoxy (one of the best), even with flame retardent hardener, to 100+ C and it is totally wrecked. But it won't really be obvious until substantially higher when you can see it turn brown. Bottom line, boat composites absolutely suck under fire/heat. As I said earlier, only a really thorough survey will tell you the condition of this boat's laminates; without an expert's eye and equipment you cannot tell what has happened inside this hull.

[jimslade]

Stay away, hidden problems.

[olearjo]

Order of durability: In general, epoxy is best; vinyl- and poly- ester resins are 2nd and 3rd respectively. Ambient-cure resins are rarely good for service temperatures over 80 C (which, incidentally, is a standard post-cure temperature for most ambient cure systems). Heat WestSystem epoxy (one of the best), even with flame retardent hardener, to 100+ C and it is totally wrecked. But it won't really be obvious until substantially higher when you can see it turn brown. Bottom line, boat composites absolutely suck under fire/heat. As I said earlier, only a really thorough survey will tell you the condition of this boat's laminates; without an expert's eye and equipment you cannot tell what has happened inside this hull.
Hello Matt,

I am an unfortunate owner of a boat that was in a large Marina fire. I am haggling with Insurance comapny on the way heat damage is being assessed. Do you know of written authoritative documentation the subject of heat damage to fiberglass boats? Are you an expert in thie field?

TIA Joe

[rasorinc]

You might check on David Pascoe's writings/books. He is an authority on
many marine issues. Stan

[olearjo]

Hello Stan,

I will do so and post any valuable findings to the thread.

Many thanks,

joe

[marshmat]

Dealing with insurers.... not fun.
I do not have sufficient expertise in this field to provide a legal opinion.
Informally speaking, though:
The fibreglass itself is not easily damaged. It will melt at a bit over 1700 C, far above what most boat fires would be.
The polymer resin in which the glass is set is the problem. Some of the common boat polyesters have a heat deformation temperature as low as 70 C. It is perfectly OK for a polymer to exceed its HDT when it is not under load, as most will regain their original strength when cooled. But if the HDT is exceeded while the component is stressed, it will flow and warp in an attempt to relieve the stress. When it cools, it holds the new shape and its strength is often less than before. So everything is now warped, squished and twisted, and has lost its ability to hold its original form. And just about everything in a boat hull is under some degree of stress when it's just sitting there at the dock.
You might check out John Murphy's Reinforced Plastics Handbook for a bit more detail; some of it is on Google Books- there's a section relating to your problem at
http://books.google.ca/books?id=jo7KwTldSNQC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=heat+deformation+temperature+of+marine+polyester+resin&source=web&ots=o-9a2IV1Bq&sig=KH1aChaFQKs0VWRViWI8tT0OBPo&hl=en

[Ike]

olearjo

a couple of resources that might help

Amercian Composites Manufacturers Association http://www.acmanet.org/ they have a large archive of research on fiberglass composites.

If you need an expert on fiberglass try. Robert Schofield, Naval Architect. He ain't cheap but he's probably the number 1 composites guy in the US.

Mr. Robert A. Schofield
Robert A. Schofield, Naval Architect
4105 Lake Washington Road
Melbourne, FL 32934
Phone (321) 255-8331
Fax (321) 3554
rasna@attglobal.net

[olearjo]

Many thanks to everyone on the thread for all of your help and suggestions.

I am more confident that I can back up my requests that the hull be either classified in writing as unseaworthy (scrap) or seaworthy (with all factory warranties being intact).

Now for the battle...

[mrfixits]

Hi I hope I have posted this in the right area, but what I was wanting to know is ...I just picked up a 17ft fiberglass half cabin but was never told that the boat had been sitting in the bush and a small bushfire has gone though where the boat was sitting, the bushfire only seems to have started to melt the taillights on the trailer and the nav lights have a small amount of melting to the plastic , the stickers on the boat are all ok...I see one of the rego numbers has curled a little. So I was hoping that someone here might be able to tell me if this hull is safe to put out into the water again as the paint is not burned and still has a bit of a shine to it, any help would be great and if you need any more info please let me know.
Thanks for any help.

[PAR]

A lot depends on how quickly the brush fire moved through. If it was the fast moving type of fire associated with dry grass lands, then you're probably just fine, except for some cosmetic damage. If the fire moved slowly trough wetlands or dense ground cover, then the laminates may have been damaged.

Pictures might be helpful, but your description suggests it was a pretty quick moving fire and the heat limited in duration. You can wave a blow torch over the surface of a hull with no damage, but if you hold it in one spot for very long, then you'll have issues.

[mrfixits]

Sweet thanks I will post some photo's as soon as I work out how to...when you look at the boat you would never know that a fire had been near it but it has been sitting for about 5 years, so I guess all the rain would have washed it, and the guy told me he had just moved it to where it was when I seen it so he could sell it and the back of the boat was in long grass so I never seen that the lights were melted....the tyres on the trailer are still ok just the valve caps have melted a bit and the very bottom of the mud flaps, also do you want close up photos or just a full view photo.
Thanks again for your help.

[PAR]

Sounds like you're in luck, have fun and stay close to shore until you have some confindance.

[laffenxxx]

Im wonder if I going to buy a fire damage boat , this boat stand on the side of a other boat that got fire . Is it something to buy for fixing it up ???
Its a 1996 Bayliner 2655 and the price is 25 % of the normal sales price here .

[marshmat]

Laffenxxx,

If you have to ask, the answer is no. A 15-year-old Bayliner 2655 goes for 15k to 30k euros in good condition; fixing that thing up would cost at least that much. The rubrail has completely melted, the windows are gone, and the hull side is scorched. That means that it was hot enough, for long enough, to seriously compromise the structure in that region.

It might be a candidate to strip for parts if you're trying to build a similar new hull on the cheap.

[Ike]

Matt is righ. It would take a major rebuild to repair that side of the boat. Let some one else worry about it.

[Frosty]

Well I would have a go at it. I do my own work so I dont know about fixing prices by a yard but if that was cheap I would repair that.

A bucket of soap and water would clear a lot of it.

[Milehog]

Looks like a possible donor boat to me.

[PAR]

A 75% reduction in price is highway robbery for this boat. You should be able to negotiate it down to 90% of it's value.

Find out if it'll start or at least crank over. Find out if the title is an "AFP" (Assembled From Parts) or if it's being sold on the original paper. This will tell you a few things: first it'll tell you that the insurance company has declared it a total lose and someone is trying to make some money on a total lose and more importantly the AFP title will greatly degrade it's resale value, as most don't want an "assembled" boat.

You shouldn't pay any more then the hardware is worth as scrap, so any price over $1,500 (USD) is out of line. Lastly find out if there's a yard bill, mechanic's lien, storage bill, repair bill, etc., outstanding on the boat, as you'll be liable for this too.

In short, unless you have considerable experience repairing and restoring 'glass production boats, then you shouldn't even think about a project like this. There are hundreds of pit falls that the novice wouldn't see at first glance, any of which can make the project a nightmare.

[Frosty]

If the guy wants to do it up and sell at a profit then he had better know what he is doing but I could get that boat with windows back in and cleaned out in a week up an running take the kids out for 1500dollar.

I agree, I would say 2000, thats a cheap boat for a run about.

You wouldnt buy the motor and leg for that.

If that was here for 2000 and the motor ran ( and why should it not) ide buy on what I can see on the photos

I think a lot of that black would compound out --not all but most. But if it didnt get a big go fast sticker or stripe right over the boat, think about it.

[PAR]

I can buy Bayliners over here, just like that one, that haven't been burned, but have distressed owners and lousy up keep for $1,500. I steal outdrives and engines all the time this way, just tossing the boat at the local landfill, once I've stripped out what I want. I have a 1995 Alpha and 305 V8 sitting right here and they came out of a $1,000 Bayliner with a soft sole and loads of neglect. I sold the trailer for $300 and kept the windshield, controls and drive package. The hull was ground up and powered the incinerator at the landfill for a few hours.

[laffenxxx]

This boat have a 5,7 Mercruiser that is served for winter. They dont know how many hours but engine should be ok . This is in Norway and here we have to pay 40000 to 60000 USD for a boat like this in good shape . Its the insurance company that selling the boat and all papers is ok . The gelcoat has damage and have to be removed and replaced on side where its burned . Its a lot of work but not imposible and i would do this by my self in my workshop .

[Frosty]

A 15-year-old Bayliner 2655 goes for 15k to 30k euros in good condition; .

Then 2k is cheap init?

[PAR]

You'll be buying a totaled boat from the insurance company. They payed the owner of this boat the policy value and now are looking to recover some of those costs.

Again, unless you have considerable experience with repairs, restoration and construction of 'glass boats, then the best advise you can receive, is to find a better project. It's very likely you'll find much more then just gel coat damage, such as delamination, melted plastic parts on the controls, warped cables, melted sheathings, melted wire insulation, shorted out umbilical, etc., etc., etc. So, how much gel coat experience do you have? Plumbing, electrical, electronics, system installations, systems diagnoses, lamination and fabrication experience?

There's a really good reason the insurance company elected to declare this a total lose, because they've priced out how much it'll be, to get it back into working order and this figure is more then the boat's worth. Maybe you can save some on personal labor, but again, unless you really have some significant experience, in the different areas mentioned, you'll spend a whole lot more fixing this old girl then she's worth and it'll still just be a Bayliner.