Moth on Foils: 31.1 knots (35.8 mph) [Archive]

CT249

04-22-2006, 08:11 PM

"foiling for some reason has been long overdue in catching on- people are suspicious of what they do not understand well."

Not necessarily, Rick. Some of us just put different values on different things. Some people may like a speedy, silently efficient (over 8 knots) foiler; others prefer a cheap, tough, simple boat that's low to the water.

Foiling must not be utterly addictive because one or two of the foiling Moth pioneers are currently looking to get OUT of the class. Considering their track record (of innovation and national and world championship wins) it cannot be lack of skill or innovation.

It's obvious when you look at the boats that people are racing, and the classes that are growing, that pure speed is just NOT that important to sailors - particularly when most people in the world sail in light airs where foilers remain slower than conventional boats.

People who are not sold on foilers include many leading minds in cat and skiff design. These people are not suspicious minds.

This is NOT (repeat NOT 10,000 times) saying that foiling is not great, I'd get one if there was a cheap one around and somewhere to put it. I would like to experiment with a foiling windsurfer, just not enough to spend $$$$$ or hours on foils.

It's just replying to the assumption that anyone who is not 100% sold on the idea is ignorant, scared, stuck in the mud, or suspicious.

Rick Loheed

04-22-2006, 08:28 PM

You actually won't get an argument about the joys of other types from me- first I am an E-scow sailor, have sailed Finns and Lasers and Stars and a variety of cruising boats. I definately enjoy how the E boat sails as probably one of the best. I have sailed the rental cats in the Swan river in Perth as well, and I enjoyed that too, though the shallow draft ally rudders were a bit weak on steering capabilty. My McAlpine-Downy designed Dingo Cat was quite wierd to sail too. but I also have a 24 ft C&C I enjoy, along with an 18 ft runabout we fish in and the canoe I love to sail etc.....

The frustration I feel, which I have to deal with and maybe should have worded differently, comes from watching good ideas panned and bad ideas often accepted during a career of 16 years in the AMV field, Often based on the reviewer's 'gut feel' or 'general public acceptance', so I have a tendency to defend the foils and air cushion vessels of the world because the well designed ones I find very worthy.

And I can fully understand why folding a kite into a trunk is a convenient thing too- I used to hang glide quite a bit and smaller is good for transport.

Doug Lord

04-23-2006, 10:34 AM

"People who are not sold on foilers include many leading minds in cat and skiff design. These people are not suspicious minds". What is the definition of "sold"? Last I read on SA under the C Class("Perth in 2007", I think) thread many of the leading minds of C class design(Steve Clark, an Australian team and the Canadian team) have been or are investigating foils for use in that class. Other "leading minds" in multihull design including Rob Denney are also actively pursuing foil designs.
One of the "leading minds" in skiff design must be Julian Bethwaite and he has said(if I remember correctly) that he is considering foils on his "Maxi Skiff" as has Sean Langman on his "Maxi Skiff". The Out 95 team has said that they are pursuing foils on their 30' keelboat.
This thread started out celebrating the amazing performance of one particular foiler Moth-24.6 knots-a milestone of historic proportions for an 11' dinghy with 85 sq. ft. of SA. But when you look at the state of monofoiling realistically this new way to sail really only began in 1999 when the first bi-foil Moth ever to foil took off. This is a sport in it's INFANCY; and while the Moth is the undisputed pioneer in two foil race winning monofoiling it is NOT the only way to go and has serious drawbacks from the perspective of appealing to a wider group of people-non retractable boards, no buoyancy pods. There are new Peoples Foiler wanabe's already sailing and others under development that will,more than likely, transform the Moth phenomenon into a very popular form of recreational sailing. David Luggs pioneering I14 effort -the first two person two foil monofoiler-showed that the Moth isn't the only type of bi-foil monofoiler possible. Foils are actively being researched in applications such as very small kite powered boats and in Windsurfers for early take off for the pure pleasure of flying-not for top end speed. In fact, the part of the allure of monofoiling is the relative simplicity and foiling in relatively light air. High speed pursuits will only be a fraction of those interested in flying for flying's sake. Foiling for too long has been synonomous in many minds with high speed or the desire for high speed. I think you'll see much more emphasis in Peoples Foilers on flying for the pure unadulterated fun of it-and taking off early is the key.
Jumping , if it can be succesfully done on a boat like Eric's and my aeroSKIFF™ will introduce just another facet to foiling.
As I tried to point out earlier foiling is being looked at in every area of sailing from small kiteboats to large keel boats, from small windsurfers to large trimarans- it is a way to sail that offers great promise and is an area of sailing where innovative thinking and taking a chance will lead to huge breakthrus in terms of new ways to sail and /or win races.
------------------
Another comment from CT249:
"Foiling must not be utterly addictive because one or two of the foiling Moth pioneers are currently looking to get OUT of the class. Considering their track record(of innovation and national and world championship wins) it cannot be a lack of skill or innovation".
Let me try to understand this : are you saying that foiling must not be a lot of fun because one or two guys are leaving the Moth class? What about the dozens getting into the class because of foiling? New fleets and/or serious interest have sprung up all over the world in places like Italy and the US as a direct result of foiling. It seems to me that the Moth class has gotten more publicity in the last three years because of foiling than in the last ten before that combined.
Could you be more specific about who you're referring to-I've had the pleasure of talking to several Moth pioneers and would like to ask these guys about their impressions of the foiling revolution in the Moth class- you can e-mail me at: lorsail@webtv.net
----------------
At any rate, it should be clear to anyone who researches the Moth phenomenon that two foil monofoiling has only just begun ; there is lots of room for development and improvement-and lots of room for new boats that are easier to sail and that can be beach sailed with heavier crews both singlehanded and doublehanded. Ian Wards proposal a couple of years ago for a whole range of foiler classes is as valid now as it was then: you ain't seen nothin yet!

frosh

04-23-2006, 05:14 PM

Doug, as someone said it very aptly on a different thread fairly recently, and directed to you, is foiling some new kind of religion that is going to overtake the Judeo-Christian tradition which has already around 5800 and 2000 years respectively of history behind it? :confused:

CT 249

04-24-2006, 12:33 AM

Re "Another comment from CT249:
"Foiling must not be utterly addictive because one or two of the foiling Moth pioneers are currently looking to get OUT of the class. Considering their track record(of innovation and national and world championship wins) it cannot be a lack of skill or innovation".
Let me try to understand this : are you saying that foiling must not be a lot of fun because one or two guys are leaving the Moth class?"

Of course I'm not saying foiling is not a lot of fun. Read what I said; I said it's not "utterly addictive". As a matter of plain english that's not saying it's not fun.

I'm not going to say who among the early foilers is thinking of getting out of the class, that's for them, but it takes very little working out. One has given detailed reasons in public. That is NOT saying foiling is not worthwhile, merely that it's not the only thing to think about.

"What about the dozens getting into the class because of foiling? New fleets and/or serious interest have sprung up all over the world in places like Italy and the US as a direct result of foiling. It seems to me that the Moth class has gotten more publicity in the last three years because of foiling than in the last ten before that combined."

Publicity does NOT equal popularity, that's a simple fact. I'm involved in parts of the sport that has had plenty of publicity and seen massive drop in the number of sailors. But if all that enormous publicity has created only a few dozen new sailors then obviously the concept is not the only way forward for sailing is it? By the way, where's the new US fleet?

IF you actually READ my post properly you would also have seen that I wrote I was "NOT (repeat NOT 10,000 times) saying that foiling is not great."

I SAID "I'd get one if there was a cheap one around and somewhere to put it."

I SAID "I would like to experiment with a foiling windsurfer".

If you think that's bagging foilers, then you must lack comprehension skills.

Julian does NOT believe in the concept of a people's foiler, as he said to me in an interview in his office at WSC about 3 weeks ago.

Sean may (or may not, i haven't seen him for a while) be into foils. Sean also sails old gaffers and loves Stars and Flying 15s. He respects those who choose to sail other classes. You don't seem to. It's the one-eyed approach that turns many people off.

As of yesterday afternoon, I was asking a foiler Moth sailor (who is VERY happy with the experience.....he said the best analogy to first time on foils was to remember the first time you planed, and how much fun it was) when the next "try a foiler" day is, because I missed the last one.

As I wrote quite clearly, I was "just replying to the assumption that anyone who is not 100% sold on the idea is ignorant, scared, stuck in the mud, or suspicious." That is NOT attacking the merits of the idea, just trying to say that not every sailor happens to want one. There are people who aren't sold on the Lasers, Canoes, windsurfers, cats and yachts I sail - good on 'em, let them sail what they like.

Rick has been gracious and mature enough to explain what he meant, which is great.

If it's all so damn all-fired incredibly much better than anything else, why aren't you foiling each weekend?

Doug Lord

04-25-2006, 06:43 PM

I certainly don't think foiling is "..so damn all fired incredibly much better than anything else" !! I love sailing and have sailed gaff rigged Fish class boats thru to an 80' schooner, Thistles, Flying Dutchman,aeroSKIFF foiler, Rave foiler, Lightning, Windmill, windsurfer ,catamaran windsurfer, Hobies(14 & 16), an E scow, several small tri's , daysailers and others I can't think of at the moment --and they were all great fun!
Foiling is loads of fun as well and most people have never tried one- either monofoiler or multifoiler-I've been lucky enough to try both and be able to be involved on a regular basis with design, testing and building of foilers. I'm working on a project now (besides my own foiler) with a well known windsurfer to develop a light air foiler. I do research on whats happening in foiling as much as I possibly can. Unfortunately, I can't find the article on Julian Bethwaites "maxi skiff" where I think he talks about foils for that boat. I'm disappointed to hear that he doesn't "believe in the concept of a Peoples Foiler"--he could contribute much!
But, as I said earlier: many leading minds in skiff and fast sailboat design ARE looking at foils.
This is a direct quote from Sean Langman(see the whole -very interesting text and pictures
at the link below):
"Certainly my new boat I intend to get the boat foiling, and our plan is now to build a 50 knot-breaking foiler which is a really interesting craft which Rohan Veal and I are working on along with Andy Dovell. From that experience I believe that even our 98 footer some day will be able to sail on foils. Really need to keep you posted on that one as I learn more about foils."
IMPORTANT NOTE: this url does not lead directly to the article. Click below ,then click on "Innerview/Roundtable" , scroll down to 2005 and click on "Sean Langman"- sorry:
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/archives.htm Changed:11:42 PM on Thursday, December 8, 2005

"Leading minds" I'd say- with exciting ideas-hope they work out. And I fervently hope that a Peoples Foiler will be developed so that the excitement of two foil monofoiling can be shared by as many people as possible.

Doug Lord

04-27-2006, 09:11 PM

More on the Langman/Dovell/ Veal plans for a 40' LOA 50 knot foiler:
Rohan Veal - Home Page
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/home.html Changed:9:42 AM on Tuesday, April 25, 2006

Doug Lord

05-05-2006, 04:35 PM

Incredibly, Sam Pascoe in the UK using new Full Force elliptical planform foils has just done 26.3 knots in a foiler Moth! Guys, thats over 30 MPH!
For an 11'(12.75' LOA) boat with 85 sq. ft. SA that is nothing short of absolutely fantastic.....

See the blurb under "Sailing Shorts"-
Scuttlebutt: Your Source for Daily Sailing News
Address:http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/

frosh

05-06-2006, 04:04 AM

Doug, thanks for the update about the speed acheived by the English International Moth recently. Did you know that a planing vessel designed in Australia achieved a speed in 1993, 77% higher than the 26.3 knots you report to us. This was "Yellow Pages Endeavor". Within the last year a planing vessel under 9 foot in length piloted by the Irish born Finian Maynard, (hull at least 2 feet smaller than the Moth) exceeded the speed of the foiled Moth by around 86%.
By any stretch of the imagination a 77% and then a 86% improvement needed to equal the best of the planing sail craft is still a long way off for the foiler Moth or any other foiler, including Sean Langmans new mega foiler project! Come on, give credit to where it is due, foils are not the only way to go fast! :cool:

Doug Lord

05-06-2006, 08:17 AM

Frosh, I did not attack or try in anyway to diminish the achievements of others in the speed sailing world! I was celebrating a remarkable achievemnt by a STOCK production foiler Moth. For a "sit-down" singlehanded skiff dinghy under 13' with such small sail area it is worth celebrating.
When you look at progress in this class the speed last year started out below 22 knots and now is almost 27-huge progress in the speed sailing world in about one year.It should also be pointed out that the Moth foiler has beaten numerous small boats around a course in conditions that suit them both including A class cats, Formula windsurfers, I14's, IC's,F18cats, and 49er's while matching speed with a Tornado cat off the wind in one incident. None of this means a lot by itself but taken as a whole is indicative of nothing short of a revolution in sailing. A revolution NOT limited to the foiler Moth!

gggGuest

05-07-2006, 01:15 PM

Whether the foiler will prove to be a good platform for ultimate speed is another issue of course: I have grave doubts, but the Moths are sensational at the speed ranges in which they operate. I wonder at what point they will start running into the cavitation issues that have been problematic for YPE? They've certainly got an awful long way to go yet.

frosh

05-07-2006, 10:34 PM

I feel that the International Moth has made a tremendous contribution to sailing technology and the sheer excitement of sailing. This applies also to earlier incarnations even going back to the 60's with pocket luff rigs, ultralightweight construction techniques and now narrow beam hulls and hydrofoils. My strong belief is that it is unlikely that a hydrofoiler will ever hold an outright speed sailing record. The Moth has shown great efficiency in being able to convert a limited amount of wind power to a lot of boat speed. However records do not have wind limits and so in conditions that are appropriate for record attempts, there is no shortage of power available. So it is with power boats, where a relatively large amount of power is available compared to sail craft, that hydrofoils generally do not feature on the very quickest craft. :)

John ilett

05-08-2006, 02:26 AM

The moth probably holds the record for foiling in the least wind and they can sail at double the wind speed in 10 knots wind.

Also a moth is not designed to break speed records as they are course racing boats, so upwind is important as is light wind.

A moth designed purely for speed may well do over 40 knots knots in 20 knots of wind but it would not likely win any races.

casavecchia

05-09-2006, 02:22 PM

http://www.int-moth.org.uk/Mpgs/SamOnboard1.wmv

boogie

05-11-2006, 11:42 PM

frosh

05-14-2006, 06:12 AM

Hi Boogie, I stand partially corrected. However there seems to be a barrier to exceeding around 44 knots which has been well reported already. :)

Doug Lord

05-14-2006, 08:14 AM

Sam, it seems to me that ANY sailboat from windsurfer to foiler to Yellow Pages and it's successor has a problem at around that speed. Every one of these boats still must develop lateral resistance and as far as I know they're all using some type of foil or foils to do it.
It will be interesting to see what the Veal/Dovell/ Langman group have come up with to achieve their target of 50 knots. One thing Rohan Veal mentions on his site(see previous post) is the idea of ejecting the "normal" foils at a certain speed to be replaced by supercavitating foils. I kinda feel that may be a smoke screen but who knows-there are some brilliant people working on this problem.
------------
But the little Moth-subject of this thread- remains the king of low speed and around the course foiling-almost nothing else under 20' appears to come close in 8-15 knots of wind.... And ,by the way: it's about two weeks since the last Moth record-better get ready for a new one!

alans

05-21-2006, 09:00 PM

John is correct 40 knots is within reach with a "Moth" specifically setup to sail in 20 knot winds, a 70 kg crew, extended wings and smaller foils. But it will not win races even in 15 knot winds
alans http://www.highspeedsailing.com

frosh

05-22-2006, 03:40 AM

Alan and John Ilett, I do agree that a Moth could be configured to go quicker than the 26 knots already achieved in the UK recently. Maybe 40 knots is possible in theory with more RM (I assume much larger wings) and smaller more refined foils.
However how likely is that the sailor could exert sufficient RM to maintain sufficient stability both laterally and longitudinally to complete a 500 metre run at a 40 plus average.
The Macquarie Innovation is theoretically capable of 50 knots but the rig disintegrated at around 45 knots.
The Moth is unproven at these sorts of velocities with its accompanying shock loadings!

alans

05-22-2006, 08:41 PM

frosh, one of the things that excites me about foilers is that their design yields to aerospace design methods and techniques. Inaddition their operating apparent wind angles make cat rig soft sails a satisfactory option. The fuild dynamic forces, the static and dynamic stability and structural loads can all be computed with reasonable accuracy. It transpires small is good when it comes to managing the loads. There is some indication on my web site of the processes involved and an indication to structural loads that occur.

alans
http://www.highspeedsailing.com

Doug Lord

06-11-2006, 09:08 AM

Incredibly, the Moth speed record has gone from the low 20's a year ago to Rohan Veals new record of 27.9(32mph). Last increases posted here were on 4/11/06(March 11) and 5/5/06(May 5th). Way to go Rohan!
------------------
THANKS!!! to Jeff for changing the title of this thread to reflect the latest record-all future Moth records will be posted here.
-----------------

From Rohan Veal(Note both the UK guys and Rohan use the Velocitek 12 channel GPS speedometer)

E-mail message

Sender: moth-bounces@moth.asn.au From: rohan@moth.asn.au(Rohan*Veal) Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2006, 6:26pm (EDT+14) To: Int-Moth_UK@yahoogroups.com Cc: james.boyd@thedailysail.com, moth@moth.asn.au Subject: Australian Moth Mailing List - New moth speed record - 27.9 knots!
sorry to do this to you sam, but it is time to up the anti and aim for 30 knots now.
don't worry, i didn't believe it when i saw it either but i checked my jocks afterwards and they were well stained. I was told later on that there was steam coming off the foils as we were sailing on a heated lake and the rooster tail was throwing up hot water in cold air. Quite a site apparantly
BTW - the 10 second average on this run was 23.3 knots in about 20-22 knots.
-r

______________________________________________
Australian Moth Mailing List
moth@moth.asn.au
www.moth.asn.au
http://redback.adroit.net/mailman/listinfo/moth

DSmith

06-12-2006, 01:36 AM

New moth speed record - 27.9 knots!
the 10 second average on this run was 23.3 knots
?????

frosh

06-12-2006, 03:04 AM

Thanks for the bad news Doug, you have depressed my day! (only kidding). It seems that unlike the stringent criteria other craft have to use such as average over a 500 metre run, (for the outright sailing speed record), these Moth records are transient bursts as the the 10 second average is almost 20% lower. Even the 10 second burst represents a little over 100 metres.
Is this your understanding as well, Doug?
Still, it is a fine achievement, but not accessible to 99.9% of active sailors. :)

DSmith

06-12-2006, 03:54 AM

these Moth records are transient bursts...or more likely ....transient errors!

RHough

06-12-2006, 05:13 AM

BTW - the 10 second average on this run was 23.3 knots in about 20-22 knots.
-r

LMAO!

Wow! TEN whole SECONDS at 23.3! Incredible! Why didn't this make the front page of the papers?

Could it be that a 29+ knot average for 24 HOURS makes 23+ for 10 seconds sound silly?

Hell even a lead mine has averaged 23.4 knots for 24 HOURS. :)

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 .... Wow, these things must be the future of sailing!

NOT

Doug Lord

06-12-2006, 05:51 AM

As understand it, there is a contest going on in the Moth class among guys all using the same extremely accurate 12 channel Velocitek GPS; the last Moth class max record was set by Sam Pascoe in the UK a few weeks ago.
Frosh, these are standard 11' Moth's with 85 sq.ft. SA-and accessible to the rather large segment of the population between 145 and 180 pounds and willing to spend the time to learn to sail a Moth. The new Olympic hopeful Bladerider is a legal Moth in one configuration but offers another bigger rig -these aren't even sailing yet. Max speed has increased tremendously in this class in just the last year ;the surface has barely been scratched in terms of potential speed....

John ilett

06-12-2006, 06:00 AM

Unless you are trying for a real speed record I think that every class of keel or dinghy always quotes their best speed so this is quite normal.

Frosh, why so pessimistic?

RHough

06-12-2006, 06:14 AM

Unless you are trying for a real speed record I think that every class of keel or dinghy always quotes their best speed so this is quite normal.

Frosh, why so pessimistic?

Exactly! ... these are not "real speed records" :!:

There is a big difference between the Moth guys having fun and seeing who can set the best spot times and those times being touted as the new be-all, end-all, greatest thing since sliced bread and indoor plumbing.

I have a 10 second GPS reading of 12.4 knots in my Catalina 30 ... are you impressed?

... didn't think so ... :)

Doug Lord

06-12-2006, 07:19 PM

The development of the foiler Moth is one of the most significant developments in sailing in the last 100 years; it is an extraordinary little boat that has a long and growing record of whipping most other sailboats under 20' including most multihulls. The speed increases posted by the Moth guys over the last few years in their class "contest" are simply fantastic especially the ones over the last few months that are all being recorded by the same extremely accurate GPS speedometer. Exciting stuff and extremely significant in what it portends for small and large boat sailing now and in the future.
This is a revolution in sailing that started with the Moth but will have a profound effect across a wide spectrum of sailboat design the limits of which are not even close to being fully understood. Major large boat sailing programs are looking at designs that utilize the bi-foil hydrofoil system pioneered by the Moth; it's looking possible that large ballasted keelboats may be able to adopt this technology and other new technologies such as on-deck movable ballast and produce incredible boats with the selfrighting charateristics of leadbellies and the speed of multihullls.
So "laugh your ass off" if you want but what is happening here is the begining of one of the greatest changes ever to happen in sailing and sailing design.
And I congratulate the pioneers like Rohan and John Ilett, Sam Pascoe, Adam May, and many others that have started the ball rolling despite the early prognostications by the "anti-foilers" in the Moth class and elsewhere.
This is so much fun to watch unfold with the pace of development measurable in just weeks from one benchmark to the next-cool stuff ,guys! Keep up the great work-and I WILL post the results here....

RHough

06-12-2006, 10:07 PM

The development of the foiler Moth is one of the most significant developments in sailing in the last 100 years;

Right up there with SS rigging, Aluminum Spars, Glassfibre Hulls and Dacron sailcloth ..? Do you really believe that marinas in 25 years will be full of foiling sailboats?

Major large boat sailing programs are looking at designs that utilize the bi-foil hydrofoil system pioneered by the Moth; it's looking possible that large ballasted keelboats may be able to adopt this technology and other new technologies such as on-deck movable ballast and produce incredible boats with the selfrighting charateristics of leadbellies and the speed of multihullls.

These fantastic new machines will obsolete boats like the VO70's right?

Here's what Paul Cayard has to say about VO70's:

Should he choose to sail again, Cayard admits he is uncertain whether he favours the Volvo Open 70.

“I do and do not. They are fantastically fun to sail, but they are also right on the edge in terms of seaworthiness.”

If Paul Cayard thinks that the VO70's are barely seaworthy, what do you think the reaction will be to a full on foiling, moving deck ballast, contraption?

So "laugh your ass off" if you want but what is happening here is the begining of one of the greatest changes ever to happen in sailing and sailing design.

Just like hydrofoils have revolutionized power vessels? It is certainly easier to design powered foilers than sailing foilers, but we don't see foilers dominate in any area of power boating that I am aware of.

And I congratulate the pioneers like Rohan and John Ilett, Sam Pascoe, Adam May, and many others that have started the ball rolling despite the early prognostications by the "anti-foilers" in the Moth class and elsewhere.
This is so much fun to watch unfold with the pace of development measurable in just weeks from one benchmark to the next-cool stuff ,guys! Keep up the great work-and I WILL post the results here....

I hope you do, sidebars always make interesting reading. Foiler Moths and HHO power are definitely interesting sidebar material.

People that push the envelope certainly earn my respect. As far as the speeds go, John himself stated "Unless you are trying for a real speed record ..." at least someone that actually sails one has a clear vision of the importance of these spot GPS readings.

Rather than talk about the slightly more credible 10 seconds speeds, you choose to tout the peak speeds, giving a casual reader the false impression that the boats are 20% faster than they really are. Thus a fair assumption would be that everything else you state as fact is also inflated 20% or more.

So yes, I'm laughing my ass off ... it's a great show!

frosh

06-13-2006, 02:21 AM

Hi John, firstly I am not pessimistic, just trying to bring Doug back from an almost manic emotional state he attains, whenever he hears any news at all about a foiling sail boat, especially a Moth which he seems to be obsessed with. Don't misunderstand my sentiments, I have built and sailed three Moths and really like them, but HE goes too far!! Even on Doug's thread re his own personal sit in keelboat concept, he is describing a 14.75 ft scaled up Moth with various gizmos to try to avoid the need to skilfully balance the hull and also avoid hiking out. :D
Does everbody who is a sailor realise how small this sport is in the scheme of world wide sporting endeavors. For a start Olympic live telecasts never show sailing events any more yet other boat sports (rowing or paddling) get considerable air time. I havn't checked in detail but I suspect that the media knows that out of all sports in the winter and summer Olympics the general public would have the least interest in watching yacht racing.
Going beyond the Olympics, there are events that capture 100 times more interest than even the swimming events in the Games such as motor racing or Football (the world game).
Some-one said on another thread that there are perhaps 50 really capable foiler sailors in the world. Probably there another 200 wannabees as well.
Nothing wrong in reporting a "record" being broken, although I don't agree it is either a record or of any significant importance.

The other disturbing trend that has been apparent for perhaps 20 years or more is that apart from junior sailors, the number of dinghy or small boat sailors has sharply decreased in senior ranks and continues unabated.
Many yacht clubs that in the 60's and 70''s were strong dinghy clubs would have already closed their doors if it were not for a slowly increasing presence of small keelboats.

Even in a highly select forum such as this one, there are only a few that would agree that the evolution as highlighted by the Moth is one of the most significant development in sailing in 100 years. To then extrapolate this to claiming that we will soon see large ocean racing keelboats using the bifoil technology is patently ridiculous as this ignores almost all the laws of physics as well as the non-negiotable requirements that such ocean racers are properly designed to be seaworthy in offshore conditions. Safety must be given a much priority than bursts of straight line speed or the sport will be legislated out of existence. :eek:

Doug Lord

06-15-2006, 09:35 PM

Too far?
PICT0080.jpg
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/2006_saunasail/PICT0080.jpg Changed:2:21 AM on Monday, June 12, 2006
=================
Rohan Veal on speedsailing and catamaran passing:
Rohan Veal - Home Page
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/home.html Changed:2:58 AM on Monday, June 12, 2006

frosh

06-16-2006, 01:46 AM

What is the significance of the photos to anyone except Rohan and you? :rolleyes:

Chris Ostlind

06-16-2006, 10:13 AM

Yeah, OK, it's decently cool that the boat can go fast in the most perfect of conditions. What isn't decently cool is the apparent tendency of these machines to suffer breakdowns. This tendency is expressed by Rohan in the followng quotes from Lord's posted links

"On the Sunday we had a bit more wind of around 12-20 knots. Aaron and Zac both had breakages on their main foils during the day, but Zac's was repaired for the afternoon session, only to have the repair fail during the second race of the day."

and

"I noticed some rumbling noises coming from the foils once I hit 25 knots, but at this stage I stopped looking at the GPS and started to concentrate on not destroying myself or the boat. I probably only went over 25 knots for no more than 2 seconds, before I brought the boat back down to the water to kill off some speed. Not a good idea to go stupid four weeks before sending the boat overseas for the worlds." (italicized emphasis mine)

I think that there's a strong desire on the part of some proponents to want to live in the realm of high speed numbers. Unfortunately, this tendency to the glory side of things comes at the expense of reading all the data and contemplating the realities associated with a speedy, fragile craft.

Make any parallel arguments you wish, but for my money, I'd like to be out on the water instead of doing all those tedious (and ultimately expensive) repair hours back in the shop.

I've had my share of blazing fast, highly tuned, road racing motorcycles over the years and they need lots of attention and fiddling to keep them on the edge of full performance.

The era of really fast, technologically advanced motorcycles has been with us since the early seventies. Perhaps Mr. Lord has an answer as to why that style of bike has not become the defacto People's Rocket of the two wheeled motoring world? In fact, during that time, the heavy, slow and old-tech V-twin engined Harley Davidson has enjoyed a resurgence of popularity in spite of the availability of the unbelievably quick, People's Rockets.

The truth of the matter is in the pricing of these two types of vehicles in the used market. Used Harley's go for very high resale values, while a well maintained "Rocket" will struggle to be unloaded by its owner. A clear problem of yesterday's technology being distinctly out of vogue.

Hmmm... perhaps all-out speed isn't the most important quotient when it comes to outdoor sporting activities and the equipment used???

John ilett

06-16-2006, 10:33 AM

For Chris, bit harsh to judge reliabilty of the whole moth class on Zacs boat. This is an 11 year old boat with home built foils. There are very few boats foiling that are not pro built.

Chris Ostlind

06-16-2006, 11:12 AM

Then why does Rohan also state that he didn't want to destroy his boat. A quote like this can only mean that he has concerns about structural reliability at these speeds.

If it's otherwise, I'd like to hear it.

Secondly, if the boat belonging to Zac had hit some great number on the readout, would there be a disclaimer that it was done on homebuilt foils and not pro-built units? What does that say about the need for pro-built foils?

One begins to see that the claims are nice and all that, but it's entirely premature to regard the overall enterprise as something important in the sailing world. When coupled with the arguments as presented by Frosh, there's a lot to be addressed before sailors can regard this as the next, perfect cheeseburger for watersports.

John ilett

06-16-2006, 11:33 AM

Rohan was only concerned to risk the boat in any way considering that the worlds are close and the boat must be shipped soon.

Just because you do not view them as the perfect cheeseburger is no reason to try and discredit their reliability. Like all the knockers so far, they usually come around to understand the boats better. But as you have no experience with them you can only pick and choose the best bits from the web to support your views.

"The perfect cheeseburger" good name for a new boat. :)

Chris Ostlind

06-16-2006, 12:14 PM

"Rohan was only concerned to risk the boat in any way"

And that implies what, exactly?

The argument is not simply that things can break and it's convenient to cherry pick the point to support the discussion. There's a bigger issue and it isn't being addressed by any of the proponents, including yourself, John. I hinted at that issue in the rest of the original posting by pointing out that complex, go-fast sporting products have limited shelf life, lousy resale value and don't typically appeal to the mass buyers that make for a truly successful product line.

It's true, I have not sailed a foiling Moth as none have been available in the regions where I have sailed regularly. I have sailed both the Trifoiler and the Rave in conditions that favored both boats and their potentials. My take on the foiling phenomenon has been stipulated on several occasions to that end.

To state my position again: Under the right applications, foilers can be fun craft. They have extraordinary potential for high speeds under sail. They operate best in a more slender window of conditions than do non-foiling boats. There are many more parts necessary and they are more susceptible to damage, adjustment issues and maintenance requirements than do regular, non-foiling, boats. They're not for everyday sailors who get out once a month and want an enjoyable, recreational experience.

All people pick and choose the bits to which they will address their attention, John, this isn't a specific phenomenon to me. You do it as well. The parallel was made between old-tech motorcycles and the typical Rice Rocket bike because it matches this argument well. Huge performance claims, the projected future of the sport puff, the latest technology being brought to bear for advancements in the sport, etc. Yet, you chose to side-step the issue and select-out the argument that you wished to address.

Hey, that's OK with me as I understand you have a financial and personal time investment in the foiling cause, but it doesn't make the point go away.

When one of you guys actually addresses the limitations and problems that need to be overcome along with all the hyperbole, we'll actually have a grounded, meaningful discussion. Until then, it's your side vs the other side and it'll look like stuff is being tossed back and forth with no understanding on the issues.

What do you say that you (a collective term, here, since you've not publically suggested that Mr. Lord could perhaps dial it back a few notches) drop the incessant line about the speed thing and openly talk about the obvious issues regarding these boats, the fun quotient, the costs, the maintenance, etc? Until you do that, these boats will remain a one trick pony to average sailors and they'll go nowhere in the marketplace as popular boats.

Since you have a business interest in this subject, you can establish a refreshingly new approach to the marketing of boats in which the pros and cons of the product are openly discussed and the consumer gets to make an educated decision based on your thoughtful care for their well-being as valued customers.

usa2

06-16-2006, 12:59 PM

I dont see why anyone considers hydrofoils on dinghies revolutionary. I14's have had foils on them for quite a while, and people knew they could make the boats "fly", its just illegal to do so.
Putting them on keelboats makes no sense, and is highly unlikely to work. In dinghys i believe the idea has merit, as it has been proven to work. But on a keelboat, for the foils to work they would have to be capable of massive loadings, and even today we are seeing vertical foils (rudders, daggerboards) made of carbon fibre that are being broken from heavy seas. It wont happen.

Doug Lord

06-16-2006, 01:09 PM

While this topic is incredibly fascinating because of the dramatic speed increases posted by Moth foilers over the last couple of years another part of the story is equally important: low speed take off. Moths are continually improving in low speed takeoff which is now below 7.5-8knots in some cases and is a major area of interest for many who are interested in foiling. I've worked on a project with an internationally known windsurfer whose interest in applying foils to boards is low speed foiling. Eric Sponberg and my aeroSKIFF14 is designed especially for light wind takeoff.
I believe part of Rohans blog described foiling at 14 knots in 7 knots of wind which is not really high speed sailing but high fun sailing-the kind of upwind , downwind and round a course foiling experience that no one sailing a Rave , Trifoiler or any other multifoiler has ever experienced.
So while the publicity is focused on the remarkable increase in top end speed by the foiler Moth there has been a similar decrease in the wind in which a Moth can foil proving not only the efficiency of the technology but opening the experience to an ever wider set of conditions. People don't have to be speed freaks to enjoy or be involved in monofoiling-they can do it for the pure joy of flying in light to moderate conditions.
And the Moth guys have proved over and over how much fun it is to race a foiler Moth either against other Moths or simply being out for a daysail picking off much larger catamarans just for the hell of it.The efficiency and performance of the foiler Moth is nearly unmatched in any sailboat under 20'...
To try to discredit John Ilett's comments because he builds the most refined foiler Moths is to miss the fact that he is the major force behind bringing the Moth to the state of the art sailing machine it is now-starting from scratch.John was there at the begining and pioneered race winning World Championship monofoiling and is ,perhaps, the most authoritative voice in any discussion of the technology behind this new kind of sailing.
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Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/06_01388b-MothMelbourne-01.jpg Changed:9:54 PM on Monday, March 27, 2006
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Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/2006_saunasail/PICT0094.jpg Changed:2:22 AM on Monday, June 12, 2006

Chris Ostlind

06-16-2006, 11:22 PM

Just for the continuity of the thing, I just now finished re-reading all the posts in the thread and I can't find a single instance where someone attempted to discredit Ilett's commentary.

There are situations where someone has disagreed with his positions, but no discrediting. There is a difference.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that and, hopefully, move on from there. John does have many valid points, I get the feeling that he's a pretty good guy and I deeply respect his work in the field. He also chooses to ignore a bunch of equally valid points that are being made by others on this thread and that does not advance the discussion.

Like I said to John in an earlier posting. If you want this foiling thing to be more than a novelty scenario in the greater world of sailing, then someone needs to step-up, as it were, and address the long list of issues frankly and with good intent so that the shortcomings (and every design idiom has them) can be hashed-out with a direct openness.

The person who does that should be a respected figure in the field, such as John, and they should be ready to discuss all the potential topics with a focused degree of civility. This doesn't have to be an us against them kind of enterprise. There is a certain degree of interest on these pages for boats of this type, but the process has been, shall we say, marketed rather heavily with little willingness to discuss the possible hangups.

From my experience in new product introductions and marketing, the only folks who can keep things cloudy while they push the hype button are the guys who have tons of money and the arrogance to go with it. Since none of the players in the foiling moth world seem to be really flush with money, the proponents should be looking to develop a different marketing strategy that appeals to the grass roots potential of the sport. Without question, that means absolute open discussions of the enterprise including all the warts.

Or you'll likely lose the audience before you get out of the blocks.

frosh

06-17-2006, 04:21 AM

John, I give you full credit for your pioneering work and achievements in developing to its current potential the whole bifoiler concept.
Doug, you are the epitome of a wannabee! If only you were lighter, if only you were younger, if only you had been around sailing Moths when foilers were first being tested, if only you had thought of it first, etc etc.
Answer this question straight. Is your ultimate aim to produce the aeroSKIFF on foils as a marketing and profit exercise?
Is this the main reason that you hype up the story that soon a boat will be designed that is accessible to the sailing masses that will allow flying in moderate conditions and will be relatively easy to sail, and rig, unrig, and maintain and also affordable.
There is nothing wrong with marketing something that people want to buy and the originator making profits.
Its just that in this forum you need to stop wearing your salesman's hat, and accept a few home truths, and try to be more honest in your appraisals of certain concepts and what are truly radical craft.
Nothing wrong with radical either, it has a time and place but it is definitely not for the majority, and I believe it is dishonest to say that it is. The Hobie Trifoiler is the closest we have yet come to a sailboat on foils for the masses.
It is also very fast, but people have voted with their wallets, and essentially have shunned it. WAKE UP! HIGH SPEED IS NOT GENERALLY WHAT PEOPLE ARE PREPARED TO PAY FOR.
Chris Ostlind's analogy to motor cycles is a good one. It costs a good deal more to buy a slow Harley Davidson than a "rocketship" Yamaha R1. Yet what do people generally buy?
I go back to an example I made some time ago. The Olympic sailing classes apart from 49er and Tornado are almost painfully slow. This indicates that other criteria are extremely important.
The one's that I can think of immediately, are User friendly, Well organised and friendly group to share sailing experiences with, (meaning a fleet to compete against, not too far from home).
Not too expensive for it's size. Doesn't tend to break. Does not become obsolete quickly.
The foiler Moth does even though spectacular in its performance does not score well on my important criteria listed above.
In many respects the old Aussie scow Moth was a greater success by far than the current foiler. At least there were sizable fleets out every weekend and people really enjoyed the sailing scene a lot more. Moths mainly come out for special events only nowadays. Is this because they are such a pain to set up, or to minimise the number of breakages?
Just another example where design evolution has actually take the sport backwards. :mad:

Doug Lord

06-17-2006, 09:18 AM

Frosh, you're right I am a wanabe-I want to foil because I've had the experience of sailing a Rave and my own(designed and built) 16 monofoiler and I know the incredble potential of this type vs. multifoilers and "normal" boats. I study, research / read all I can on the subject as well as spending more and more time designing, building and sailing different types of foilers. Have you ever sailed any type of foiler? Have you ever designed and built one?
While this thread is about the top end speed of the foiler Moth I pointed out in my previous post the tremendous advances the boat has made
in low speed takeoff. The range of usable sailing conditions for the foiler Moth is far greater than any previous foiler including the Hobie trifoiler and Rave. And it's upwind ability is without peer in previous foiler incarnations.
Reliability, pitchpole, ease of sailing, round the course performance, comparisions with other boats under 20' ,cost,trash in the water and the effect on foilers, production, history, low speed performance, high speed performance, boat weight, crew weight, other monofoilers, new monofoilers, old monofoilers have all been
addressed at various times in this forum under
these threads and others: "Peoples Foiler: aeroSKIFF and M4", "Peoples Olympic Foiler", "Foiler 1 GP", "Foiler Design".
When reliabilty is questioned using minor failures occuring with older boats that are involved in trying to push the speed envelope in 20- 30 knots wind rather than using the example of the dozens of major Moth Championships held over the last few years with few if any failures
the discussion seems a bit unbalanced.
I can't think of an issue relating to the foiler Moth or monofoilers in general that hasn't been addressed here-many times directly by John.
Back to this thread: this is a celebration of the top end speeds recorded by Moth guys in an internal Moth class "contest" that has shown both top end and average speeds increase dramatically over the last two years. But that is only one-very interesting-segment of the foiler Moth experience.Equally as important are the advances made by John and others in reducing the takeoff windspeed of the boat and increasing the multiple of windspeed to boatspeed-like 14 knots boat speed in 7 knots of wind. And the growing list of boats beaten around a course by the foiler Moth in conditions suitable to them both like the 49'er, I14, F18 and A class catamaran and others.
And the foiler Moth is just the begining.....
There is much more to this picture than just high top end speed....(but the speed sure is cool)

Baronvonrort

06-17-2006, 12:03 PM

Doug
You conveniently fail to mention how the foiling moth was beaten by an OK and other slower dinghy's at skandia week,Rohan has the results on his website.The moth was not very impressive at the brass monkey regatta last year either,thats alright we can all see through your wannabe BS.I guess there are no foiling moths in florida so you might not have seen one in real life.

I can say that if that is you sailing your seahugging excuse for a foiler that you call the aeroskiff you are too fat and unfit to ever hope to foil in a Moth.
Take a look at the weight and physical conditioning of the top moth sailors and they are all much smaller than you.

The moth is one of the few remaining sailing classes that does not have a minimum weight restriction and i would suggest with current materials they cant really make it much lighter.I bet Rohan would know the weight of every component on his moth and is still trying to save weight.

The old saying if it doesnt break it is too heavy certainly applies to the moth and i am sure Rohan and the other moth sailors spend some time working on their boats to keep them in perfect working order unlike the laser sailors who put their boat away for next time and do not have to maintain it constantly.

The Moth is not a boat for inexperienced sailors and it is not easy or user friendly anymore.

I have always liked the Moth class since the time i first had a close look at the scows and have watched the development over the years to the foilers currently racing.

Anyone can spruik off about speed claims and i think if you are going to post the speed achieved then you should also post windspeed and angle to true wind.
You make claims about upwind performance yet have never posted anything about upwind tacking angles and windspeed vs boatspeed that the moths achieve..is it 80, 90 deg,100deg?

I think the biggest seller for off the beach sailcraft in the last 25 years has come from windsurfing.Cheap,simple, reliable easy to rig and store/transport and WTF they hold the world speed record!

Whats the top speed of a windsurfer?
How many million windsurfers have been sold?

Chris Ostlind

06-17-2006, 02:34 PM

Hey guys,

So, somebody needs to make this comment in support of the previous observations by Frosh. People's Boating, to borrow an overused phrase from one of our esteemed members, is not in residence in the foiling products we've been witness to on these pages. There are many reasons, so there's no need to get into that at this point.

When Mr. Lord first pushed-out his chosen designator of, People's Foiler, I had this expectant desire to see something that was at once affordable, simple to use and available and sailable for kids in the 10 to 16 year old range as well as small to average adults. I was going on the oft accepted definition of the term "People's" as a fitting descriptor of a craft that was suitable for the masses.

When something else entirely emerged, which would clearly not be suitable for smallish, as well as young boaters, I was hugely dissapointed in the obnoxious hype surrounding the introduction. Now, perhaps that was my fault being such an enthusiast for boating and being heavily invested in the reality that without a series of good, new boats for energetic kids, there will be little to shout about with regards to our boating future.

Frosh observed here many times that fleets of small boats are disintegrating in some areas of the world where they once were quite popular. So, instead of creating a wonderful new collection of boats for The People, we got presented with a tricked-out, complex, hard to drive techno boat that will only be attractive to a slender market share. Certainly, there's a place for them, but they're hardly a "People's Boat" from where I sit.

When you lose the kids from the sport, the end is near in just a few years. You can make all the fancy foilers, carbon rocketships, adjustable swinging keels and trick rigs you want. There won't be enough customers out there to buy them anyway.

So, imagine my surprise when along comes a posted photo at Sailing Anarchy on Friday that showed an enticing new boat from of all people, BIC, aimed directly at the sports minded kids who want to get out on the water and mix it up with their buddies.

http://www.openbic.com/index.wrd?opbid=cecba05eabfdb2b6b3311af6f967713d

At 2500 Euros out the door, it's going to be real tough for anything with foil assist to get even close to what this kind of boat can mean for the "People" of our sport. Geez, what's a set of foils alone go for, USD$1000 or so?

Read 'em and weap guys. These are the hotshoes of the future. The People's Sailors, if you will, and they're going to be looking for boats to drive that make sense, can be purchased within their income potential, can be driven onto the beach where they will be hanging out with their friends and won't cost them an arm and a leg to repair if they forget to retract the foils before they get into shallow water.

Any of you with young, boating kids like this know exactly what I mean by that last sentence. That's why my kid's boats are nearly indestructible and/or have centerboards and flip-up rudders.

Go look at the slide show and see what I mean by fun.
http://www.openbic.com/images/?opbid=cecba05eabfdb2b6b3311af6f967713d

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design

Doug Lord

06-17-2006, 06:19 PM

Now, that's a pretty little boat but I'm afraid the price range is the best thing about it-but definitely not the bang for the buck. It's 9' long and weighs 143 pounds-thats more than a Laser! With about half the sail area! Do you really think that will capture the interest of today's young sailor wannabe's? A boat with the same weight as a Laser will be hard for the target market to handle on the beach ,wouldn't you think? For around the same price a kid can get into windsurfing where not only will he/she learn the basic forces acting on a sailboat by feeling them he/she will get to go really fast in winds over about 10-12 knots. Not only that but included in the price would be top notch instruction and maybe a summer camp. I think a kid would do well to be able to learn on a windsurfer and then graduate to a modern foiler Moth; see what Andrew McDougall(long time Moth builder, sailer and sailmaker) says about who can sail his new Bladerider:
International Foiler Moth - Bladerider
Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/bladerider.html Changed:11:41 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006
Note that the hull weight of a Bladerider (or Prowler) is UNDER 22 pounds(allup: around 66lb.s-less than half of the Bic) and that the Moth is
primarily a light persons boat. Easy to move around on the beach, retractable foils(according to McDougall) and I wouldn't be surprised to see removable buoyancy pods introduced as time goes by.
While the windsurfer can really move as
the wind picks up NOTHING on the planet can do what a Moth can in light air: McDougall says that with the larger 9m² sail the Bladerider will take off in 5 knots of wind and do 14 knots boatspeed!!(see first question under "General Enquiries":
KA Sail Australia - Bladerider FAQ's
Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/faqs.html Changed:9:53 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006 )
Thats waaaay before a board will plane or a cat fly a hull-and that, my friend, will definitely capture the interest of the sailing youngsters I'm familiar with.
I'm afraid Bic is a little late with their offering; even though the price is outstanding I just don't think it will cut it in this day and age...

RHough

06-17-2006, 07:52 PM

Now, that's a pretty little boat but I'm afraid the price range is the best thing about it-but definitely not the bang for the buck. It's 9' long and weighs 143 pounds-thats more than a Laser! With about half the sail area! Do you really think that will capture the interest of today's young sailor wannabe's? A boat with the same weight as a Laser will be hard for the target market to handle on the beach ,wouldn't you think? For around the same price a kid can get into windsurfing where not only will he/she learn the basic forces acting on a sailboat by feeling them he/she will get to go really fast in winds over about 10-12 knots....

I'm afraid Bic is a little late with their offering; even though the price is outstanding I just don't think it will cut it in this day and age...

Since there are 100's of learn to sail programs that use the Opti and are part of youth sail racing development programs and NO such programs that use windsurfers there are 100's of Opti sailors that can use the rig and foils they already have with a One Bic hull. Then add the One Bic rig and foils later.

Opti sailors know how to sail, windsurfers know what? How steep is the learning curve from Opti to Moth vs Windsurfer to moth? On one hand you have a sailor that knows about sail and hull trim and is familiar with sail trim controls on the other you have a whatever that that has never used a sheet or tiller. My money is on the Opti sailor.

In fact, I'll wager that more top sailors started in Opti's than windsurfers in any class you care to name. The fact is that kids that learn to sail and race Opti's do darn well, I can't think of any good sailors that started with windsurfers then went on to be successful in dinghies or other boats. The skills need to windsurf have next to no relevance to sailing real boats.

The fact is that high performance planing dinghies are not the boat of choice for a majority of sailors, much less a high maintenance foiling contraption.

The One Bic has a larger target market than any foiler will ever have.

Doug Lord

06-17-2006, 08:05 PM

Chris Ostlind

06-17-2006, 09:17 PM

Lord writes: "Now, that's a pretty little boat but I'm afraid the price range is the best thing about it-but definitely not the bang for the buck. It's 9' long and weighs 143 pounds-thats more than a Laser! With about half the sail area! Do you really think that will capture the interest of today's young sailor wannabe's?"

The BIC is also virtually maintenance free, waaay more affordable and nearly bullet-proof for entry level, People's Sailors. No handy gimmicks to learn such as trim tabs, wands, skiding seat setups, etc, just flat-out fun on the water with a huge sigh of cash drain relief from the parents as their kid gets out on the water with his or her buddies. The boat can even be pulled behind a bike with a simple beach dolly. Oh, and did I say, it can be packed-up and ready to go in less than five minutes?

The foiling concept is done-for save for the few techno-dudes who really have the twinge. Look again at who is riding rice rocket motorcyles and what percentage of sales the manufacturers enjoy from that design idiom when compared to the overall sales of cruising machines. That's your market indicator.

There will always be techno-dudes, Doug. They'll happily buy anything they think will get them the buzz fix they seek. Unfortunately, they don't represent the mainstream of sailing for those who are looking to make a smart living from the process.

Plastic boats, like the BIC, are the way things are going for the time being as the price point delivers that "Bang for the Buck" that you like to include in your argument. The kayak market has been flooded with good rotomolded boats for years and they have progressively shrunk the composite market as a result. Much of the same thing has been happening in the beach cat market as well.

That reality and the additional fact that rotomolded boats tend to be slighty heavier than their composite counterparts will likely keep them out of the running for a viable foiler, such as those you espouse. This means that foiling craft will likely have to be sold at much higher levels of cost due to material realities. One could build foiler hulls from thermoformed plastic skins if the engineering could be done to satisfy the loadings issues, but that will require a ton of R&D to get the process right, along with the right plastic for the job.

That looks to be the only way to compete at the price point of more acceepted recreational boats. In the end, high price and development time are going to kill the product because they probably can't be built at simple levels of manufacturing routines.

I won't even begin to get into the on-going need to produce the next greatest cheeseburger foiler which will succeed in eating all the previous potential profits in R&D costs. (that's a tip of the cap for Ilett's next boat)

RHough

06-17-2006, 09:31 PM

Well, Mr. Hough, I do believe you're dead wrong. See this:
05/04/06 2006 USA Junior Olympic Festival Schedule
Address:http://www.ussailing.org/pressreleases/2006/jocalendar.htm Changed:10:46 AM on Thursday, May 4, 2006
The Calema Windsurfing and Sailing school mentioned in this schedule is near my home and I know the owner well. He feels that a high performance foiler would fit in perfectly with his youth sailing program! I do too....

Would that be this site (http://www.calema.com/)? :)

There are 24 events on the link that you posted. TWO (2) of the 24 have windsurfers ... 8%

Of those same 24 events EIGHTEEN (18) include Opti's ... 75%

and I'M dead wrong? LMAO!

Simple math Mr. Lord ... assume 100 sailors at each event. Take the top sailor from each. Any bets that the 18 Opti sailors will foil rings around the 2 windsurfers?

Yep ... I must be wrong. The one guy in Florida that agrees with you and whose website is down as I type this are more in tune than the 22 clubs that don't include windsurfers ... yeah right.

When you post rebuttal links, it's best to see that they support your position ... :p

Doug Lord

06-17-2006, 10:00 PM

RHough

06-17-2006, 10:42 PM

What you said that was definitely dead wrong and what the site I posted backs up is:
" Since there are 100's of learn to sail programs that use the Opti and are part of youth sail racing development programs and NO such programs that use windsurfers...".
I think Opti programs have been great-I just think that a windsurfer program would be an excellent forerunner to high performance monofoiling.

A JO windsurfer regatta is not the same thing as being part of a national youth sailing development program. 29er's are sailed in JO regatta's too, but they are not used as sail trainers either.

Show me a National Youth Sail Development program that is based on windsurfers that leads to racing other boats and I'll eat my words. Not one school in Florida, a National program.

Do you really think that learning to windsurf would be a better foundation to learn to sail a high performance dinghy than the racing and seamanship skills learned in an Opti program?

Why don't you ask how many of the foiling Moth skippers started on windsurfers and how many started in an Opti, Topper, or El Toro?

Does it strike you as odd that NONE of the events in the JO program have both windsurfers and real boats? Could it be that all the folk that see that windsurfers and sailboats don't fit in the same regatta are dead wrong too?

Back to the One Bic vs a boat that doesn't exist yet ...

With over 500,000 Opti's in the world, there looks to be a market for a transition boat like the One Bic. Kids can get a taste of planing dinghy performance for much less than the cost of a Byte or Laser.

Bic must be dead wrong too ... hmmm ...

Bic Pens
Bic Lighters
Bic Windsurfers

Pretty bad track track record ...

frosh

06-18-2006, 01:15 AM

Doug, you are the author of your own demise on this thread, and deservedly so. I think that the arguments re: involving the kids when they big enough to move out of Optis and into small affordable planing boats, is the one that is absolutely the most important to ensure that our sport has a future.
The introduction of the BIC Open, and at the price is very timely as we are losing the juniors by the hundreds at around the age they are learning to drive for a myriad of reasons.
Any new offering that can involve teenagers in something that will keep them excited to be in the sport and will grow with them as well is potentially huge!
Windsurfing which I happen to participate in and have followed closely for around 25 years, is definitely in decline. This has nothing to do with the fun or value for money it provides, but because the majority of participants never had a real sailing background, it was easy to move across to kite-surfing with its much larger jumps and the modern image kites enjoy.
I don't believe that windsurfing will recover to the heady days of the 80's, and even if it did, does not provide a basis for any form of dinghy sailing.
Doug, to say that kids should be taught the sailing basics on a windsurfer and then move across to Moth foilers defies all the observable facts so far, and the logic of sensible posters on this forum that unfortunately does not include you.
Do you subscribe perhaps to the view that you are the only sane person you know?
Perhaps the rest of us are either crazy, or we have a dishonest hidden agenda, so it suits us to try and deliberately mislead the newbie sailors reading this forum? :confused:

Doug Lord

06-18-2006, 09:52 AM

[QUOTE=Doug Lord]Now, that's a pretty little boat but I'm afraid the price range is the best thing about it-but definitely not the bang for the buck. It's 9' long and weighs 143 pounds-thats more than a Laser! With about half the sail area! Do you really think that will capture the interest of today's young sailor wannabe's? A boat with the same weight as a Laser will be hard for the target market to handle on the beach ,wouldn't you think? For around the same price a kid can get into windsurfing where not only will he/she learn the basic forces acting on a sailboat by feeling them he/she will get to go really fast in winds over about 10-12 knots. Not only that but included in the price would be top notch instruction and maybe a summer camp. I think a kid would do well to be able to learn on a windsurfer and then graduate to a modern foiler Moth; see what Andrew McDougall(long time Moth builder, sailer and sailmaker) says about who can sail his new Bladerider:
International Foiler Moth - Bladerider
Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/bladerider.html Changed:11:41 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006
Note that the hull weight of a Bladerider (or Prowler) is UNDER 22 pounds(allup: around 66lb.s-less than half of the Bic) and that the Moth is
primarily a light persons boat. Easy to move around on the beach, retractable foils(according to McDougall) and I wouldn't be surprised to see removable buoyancy pods introduced as time goes by.
While the windsurfer can really move as
the wind picks up NOTHING on the planet can do what a Moth can in light air: McDougall says that with the larger 9m² sail the Bladerider will take off in 5 knots of wind and do 14 knots boatspeed!!(see first question under "General Enquiries":
KA Sail Australia - Bladerider FAQ's
Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/faqs.html Changed:9:53 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006 )
Thats waaaay before a board will plane or a cat fly a hull-and that, my friend, will definitely capture the interest of the sailing youngsters I'm familiar with.
I'm afraid Bic is a little late with their offering; even though the price is outstanding I just don't think it will cut it in this day and age..."
============================
============================
Those that think the Bic is a good way to capture teenagers interest in sailing are living in fantasy land-it has even less performance than a Laser and is heavier-you've got to be kidding!
I think(and am not alone) that teaching sailing in high performance boats/windsurfers is an excellent way to show kids what is possible and allow a transition into boats like a foiler Moth. I'm certainly not for doing away with the Optimist end of youth sailing instruction(necessarily) -just supplementing it with windsurfing instruction and fascilitating a transition into state of the art high performance boats like a foiler Moth.
This is from a sailing school: " Of course windsurfing requires a higher dedication and effort but this said, at Funtastic we think that the simultaneous learning and practicing of both sports-sailing and windsurfing, facilitate a bigger and better understanding and provide a more solid theoretical knowledge of sailing in general".
With the exciting, thrilling "extreme" options available to kids nowadays the only hope for sailing is to capture their interest by allowing them to experience the high performance aspects of sailing at an early age.
------------
Heres a somewhat interesting discussion on the Aussie Moth forum:
Australian Moth Class Association :: View topic - Optimist to Moths
Address:http://www.moth.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=315

RHough

06-18-2006, 10:54 AM

Those that think the Bic is a good way to capture teenagers interest in sailing are living in fantasy land-it has even less performance than a Laser and is heavier-you've got to be kidding!
I think(and am not alone) that teaching sailing in high performance boats/windsurfers is an excellent way to show kids what is possible and allow a transition into boats like a foiler Moth. I'm certainly not for doing away with the Optimist end of youth sailing instruction(necessarily) -just supplementing it with windsurfing instruction and fascilitating a transition into state of the art high performance boats like a foiler Moth.
This is from a sailing school: " Of course windsurfing requires a higher dedication and effort but this said, at Funtastic we think that the simultaneous learning and practicing of both sports-sailing and windsurfing, facilitate a bigger and better understanding and provide a more solid theoretical knowledge of sailing in general".
With the exciting, thrilling "extreme" options available to kids nowadays the only hope for sailing is to capture their interest by allowing them to experience the high performance aspects of sailing at an early age.

Mr Lord makes it sound like Funtastic has a beginner winsurf/sail program ... when in fact ...

From the same sailing school: "The beginner courses of sailing take place at our center on the beach of Riells, south-east of the town of l'Escala, where the wind and waves conditions are excellent to start. For such courses we have a flotilla of dinghies ideal for beginners: Taz, Topper, RS Feva and Access Dinghies."

Here are links to the boats:
Taz (http://www.toppersailboats.com/taz.html)
Topper (http://www.toppersailboats.com/topper.html)
RS Feva (http://www.rssailing.com/fleets.asp?fleet=RS%20Feva)
Access (http://www.accessdinghy.org/equipment/boats/23single.htm)

Please point out the windsurfer.

They go on to state: "If you already know how to sail, you can rent any of these sailboats, as well as some for more experienced sailors like the Lasers or others with gennaker and trapeze as the RS Feva XL, RS Vision XL and Sport'16. On top of this you also have the RS Veleros test center at your disposal, allowing to try several models of the LDC Racing Sailboats, like the RS 200, RS Vareo, RS 700 as well as the Australian Access Dinghies: Access 2.3, 303, Breeze or Liberty all of them meant to make sailing accessible to everybody. "

Nowhere do they state or imply that basic sailing is taught on windsurfers.

If you look at the spec sheet of the Taz, you will find it is very similar to the One Bic. Not only is there a market, more than one boat is competing for market share. I guess all those people are "living in fantasy land" too ...

Funtastic also packages:

Blue Week Combos (http://www.funtastic-emporda.com/blueweek.html#sb)

Ski or Wake Board + Sailing.
Ski or Wake Board + Windsurfing.
Ski or Wake Board + combined Sailing and Catamaran.
Ski or Wake Board + Catamaran.
Windsurf + Sailing.
Windsurf + Catamaran.
Sailing + Catamaran.
Water Ski + Wake Board.

Sounds like a fun place to send the kids for a week of peace and quiet at home. :)

Chris Ostlind

06-18-2006, 10:55 AM

Doug,

Do you have any kids and if so, what are their ages?

Just curious about the source of your knowledge on this matter because it doesn't mesh with any of the experiences that I have with kids.

I've got two kids, a daughter who is 18 and a son who is 16. They've been through the whole route from total beginner/novice to extremely accomplished in several sports over the years. They've done sailing, soccer, rock climbing, snow boarding, skiing, baseball and ultimate frisbee.

My daughter is going off to college in the fall on an academic/soccer scholarship and we've seen it all from PeeWee league to the Olympic Development team.

They both have sailed in boats all their lives and are accomplished solo sailors in a variety of craft. They both ski double black diamond runs and can absolutely smoke me on any mountain.

Throughout all these years of guiding these two kids through their athletic development, they have never once mentioned that they feel as if their sporting lives have been short-changed in the process in any way.

Unfortunately, they have missed the opportunity to hop onto a foiling Moth while spending the next several days of their lives trying to keep it upright so that they can experience the flash of supremacy that is supposed to come with the ride.

The BIC is not the answer to kids getting into sailing? What amount of money do you want to wager that the sales numbers of the BIC boat will quickly eclipse the sales figures for all the Moths ever constructed? My guess is that will happen in the first year of sales and they will not look back.

How much does a Laser cost, Doug? How much for the BIC? Why is Walmart the single biggest retailer in the world, Doug? Big Clue here... It's not because they sell stuff for twice as much as the guy down the street.

How about repairability, or more to the point... the need to have the boat repaired in the first place. Virtually indestructible plastic vs ding and crunch prone fiberglass. Hmmmm, nope, not even close.

There's a dream here, alright. But it isn't about the functional attractiveness of the BIC and its potential in the kid market. The reasons are sound and they have been proven time and again in the sailing marketplace.

By the way... how's it coming on that AeroSkifferoo project? Is that bad boy ready for the water now? It's been, what, 6 months now, since you started shouting about it? I figure that anyone, working even part time on the boat, could have generated the necessary fixes you proposed in order to make it ready for a serious test session in varied conditions.

CT 249

06-18-2006, 09:15 PM

If we're going to talk teenager's sailing, we should see what kids are actually sailing. Comparing '98 to '05 or '06 (when available) from Yachts and Yachting's latest Nationals Attendance Chart, we see.....

1- Opti. 255 up to 335
2- Topper 137 to 278
3- Radial 74 to 197
4- Cadet 99 to 106
5- Laser 96 to 104
6- RS 200 55 to 101
7- 420 65 ('99, no 98 figure) to 96
8- Mirror 48 to 91 (is now a RYA squad class)
9- RS Feva (heavy simple plastic teen's boat) Didn't exist '98, now 85.
10- Fireball 68 to 84

The actual speed of the classes in the top 10 is actually SLOWER than it was years ago, when boats like the 505 were in the top 10. There is NO discernible trend to fast boats becoming more popular.

There are MORE kids sailing at nationals than there were in the years of the "dinghy boom" as is proven by earlier Y&Y attendance tables. The idea that slow old boats are turning kids off sailing is NOT proven and would be hard to defend.

Some other interesting boats....

49er - 30 boats '98, growing to 36
29er - 17 (its first nationals) to 31 - but actually DROPPING in support once you exclude that first year.
470 - 20 to 14 (indicating that being a RYA supported class isn't enough to create support)
Cherub - 12 to 19 (and rule changes have made it a lot faster - indicating that being a fast, light, fascinating boat doesn't guarantee popularity).
Solo - 50 to 79 (showing that being old and slow can equal popularity even when you have to compete with Lasers).
Int 14 - 72 to 31 (at a time when it has become much faster and adopted foils).

If all teens are adrenalin junkies, why are they sailing Radials and Toppersin vast and increasing numbers and not turning to 29ers and Cherubs in their dozens? Why are Radials and Fevas growing so strongly if teens hate that sort of boat? Either kids and parents are stupid, or the kids actually enjoy the boats.

British Moth (1930s one design version of the Moth) 29 to 31
Europe (1960s version of the Moth) 29 to 28.
RS 300 (similar to one design version of '80s Moth) 22 to 29
Int Moth - 21 to 24

It's hard to see that there is a massive swing to the International Moth, which remains less popular than the slower one designs that grew from it. This is NOT a good thing, it's sad 'cause they are such great boats, but surely it's very significant. The slowest version of the Moth is the most popular! Surely that shows that speed does NOT equal popularity.

It cannot be because the Int. Moth doesn't get publicity or RYA support, because it gets lot of publicity and the British Moth and RS 300 don't seem to get any more support, and the Europe has been dropped from the Games.

The International Canoe has gone a lot faster with the Assymetric added, and numbers have dropped from 43 to 21.

The most popular skiff-type boat, the lovely RS 800, is just NUMBER THIRTY in the ranking of the most popular classes.

The British dinghy scene is the biggest and strongest in the world. Similar trends can be seen in Australia - Laser just had its biggest nationals ever.

There is just no evidence that going faster makes classes more popular. That may not be a good thing, but surely it's something we should recognise.
Blindly following the mantra "more speed will make sailing more popular" has done massive harm to windsurfers, cats and many classes. Surely it's time for us to become much more sophisticated and RECOGNISE THE FACTS!

This isn't meant to be attacking John or other foiler Moth sailors, or their remarkable achievements and boats. It just seems important that discussions about the future of the sport should have some reference to what's really happening.

usa2

06-18-2006, 09:36 PM

Absolute speed is irrelevant in most sailing. Thats why canting keels have not become commonplace on offshore racers, nor will they. Same with foils. Sailing can afford to let those who so choose dabble in speed adding mechanisms/appendages, but it will not alter the majority of the sailing world.

frosh

06-19-2006, 03:27 AM

Hi Doug, Your last posting, is it a loop tape or what? It is not a competition on this forum as to who can repeat themselves the greatest number of times!
Oh- cognitive dissonance. What is that? I will give the the psychologists definition and you can see if you recognize it.
"Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them."
You appear to be quite alone in your view that (1) The quickest small dinghy is what we should be pushing to promote sailing to youngsters gradutaing out of junior trainers. Even your sometime defender of the foiling " faith" John Ilett has not come out in support with this one. (2) Windsurfing is an ideal introduction for juniors in preparation for high performance dinghy sailing. (You say that you are not alone in this view: name the other person!)
You believe that kids want thrilling extreme sport experiences; I don't believe you have experience being a Dad to say this. They actually prefer a safe fun experience where they can interact in a normal predictable manner with other kids their own age.
As far as the discussion in the Aust. Moth Forum which you posted it seems to contradict your view strongly and support everyone elses. This is how it starts:
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: Optimist to Moths

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you think a person with alot of experience from optimist and a little of laser and 420 could sail a hydrofoil moth? When i say a little i do mean a little in the laser (like 2 hours tops) and in the 420 around 10 hours.

Thanks

Back to top

Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:53 am Post subject:

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no

Back to top

Emo
Moth Forum Junkie

Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 30

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject:

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nope. maybe a wide skiff or a scow if you've got some skill and are way to heavy for the oppie. Only really the creme-de-la-creme are on foils at the moment,
Doug, believe me it is not us that is suffering from the above-mentioned psychological condition.
To try and reach a reasonable point of view you need to go through a period of discomfort first on route. I see that you have painted yourself into a corner and there is no door there from which to escape! :D :D

Doug Lord

06-19-2006, 01:03 PM

Yeah, Frosh, you're always so perceptive-wrong a lot but perceptive: I must have some kind of condition to allow myself to get sucked in to the total hijacking of the "Moth on Foils" thread, which is not about sailing schools-sorry for my small part in the massacre of the original thread-no more.....

Chris Ostlind

06-19-2006, 06:57 PM

I don't get it, man. We're streaming along with a perfectly well-connected discussion and as soon as one of the guys gets his concepts trumped he scuttles off. And this, after he engaged in the expanded discussion along with everyone else.

Hijacked the thread? Really? Like there aren't already a bunch of other threads running about foilers and the various properties thereof? If there's a strict ruling on the concept of the hijack, then I'll fess-up to the dirty deed of taking control of the tiller on the hijacking. I learned it at the youth school of Capt. Jack Sparrow at Hurricane Gulch, California where fast boats and aggressive tendencies abound.

I'm still curious on the larger question, though.

Mr. Lord, do you, in fact, have athletic, watersports oriented kids in the age group we discussed, or having passed through the age group, from which you are drawing your personal experience?

I suspect Lord won't answer this question, so I'll have to assume that a no-answer is the same as a response to the negative on the question as asked. I get jumped by Ilett for not having any driving experience on a foiling Moth (Rave and Trifoiler experience apparently don't qualify) and Lord spends his time hypothesizing about youth sailing programs as they would lead into a Moth-like readiness. I wonder, where's Ilett with his usual questioning about specific relevance when it comes to the Dougster and his positioning? Perhaps it's bad form to jump one of the hype meisters of foiling?

Oh well, and it was a pretty nice discussion up to this point. The proceedings were civil, courtesies were observed and nobody dropped the nasty word bombs you see on other forums.

Nice work guys.

Chris

frosh

06-19-2006, 11:21 PM

Doug, you are not playing by gentleman's rules to sulk and say that we hijacked your thread. Therefore you will not answer very reasonable and pertinent questions being asked of you. It is also not reasonable of you to fail to admit in this case that you might be wrong! Shame about this as you had an opportunity to earn a small measure of respect from the rest of us, but as usual you never fail to miss an opportunity. :cool:

gggGuest

06-20-2006, 03:52 AM

If all teens are adrenalin junkies, why are they sailing Radials and Toppersin vast and increasing numbers and not turning to 29ers and Cherubs in their dozens? Why are Radials and Fevas growing so strongly if teens hate that sort of boat? Either kids and parents are stupid, or the kids actually enjoy the boats.

While I don't disagree with your premise that increased speed is not a way to increase popularity, one thing that is clear is that the UK kids are starting competitive sailing younger, swapping to faster boats younger, and dropping out of sailing altogether younger... There are kids who believe that its time to get out of 29ers when you're 18 and they start sailing them at 15. This is an enormous revolution in UK terms. Of course there's nowhere to go from there because you're not going to be able to run a 49er at that age, so I'm not entirely sure all this is a good thing....

So I think that to a fair extent the change in numbers reflects sailors out at younger ages rather than sailors out in slower boats.

Doing some number crunching last year I disovered, incidentally that there is one sure fire way to increase the popularity of a class: increase female participation. In the asymettric two handers there's practically a direct relationship between percentage of female compeitors and number of entries at the Championships. So maybe its not what kids choose to sail, its what girls choose to sail? And this is especially an issue for the more open rule boats because I have noticed that relatively few women sailors get that excited about the more complex areas of boat prep, which tends to be rather a "boys toys" area.

Baronvonrort

06-20-2006, 07:25 AM

Here is a moth doing ?knots

CT 249

06-20-2006, 07:41 AM

Interesting. I've gone through some old figures from the Y&Y attendance charts (I have none for the '80s and early '90s) and there does seem to be evidence that the kid's boats were generally less popular (in particular the Opti and Topper).

My gut feeling is that you may be totally right in identifying the gap between the teen's 29er and the expensive 49er, and similar gaps. It hits kids when they're moving out from parental funding nad having to face uni and get cars, doesn't it?

Julian Bethwaite says that Australia has the problem of kids staying in kid's classes too long, as well. But if there's a gap in expense, maybe it's understandable? If you go from mum and dad paying for it to having to buy it yourself, lots of values change!

I must also say your point about the % of women is extremely important, as far as I can see.

So if we could identify the class that has the greatest success in keeping older teens/young adults/young women it may be very important perhaps?

Here it may be the Radial; as you say very few women seem to be interested in development classes. Windsurfing doesn';t have the "hands on" development of some development classes but it still went from about 30% women to a much smaller proportion when it shifted into a gearhead's sport.

The frustrating thing about such theorising is that ISAF etc could and should be looking at these realities, instead they prefer to follow the bulldust route examplified by the report on Olympic classes, where they asked the windsurfing chief and Julian B what route they should take and they got back a report saying (surprise surprise) windsurfers and 49ers and Ts were the way to go. Considering windsurfing is down to 8% of its former level and skiffs aren't all that popular outside NSW, it's hard to see how they can be the future of the sport.

Stephen Ditmore

06-20-2006, 02:04 PM

My Moth, under construction, will be rigged and sailed under the "Classic Moth" rules, and is unlikely to sail anywhere near 20 knots. Nevertheless, I've just posted some photos to the gallery, and I invite people to have a look.
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=38

wet feet

06-20-2006, 05:05 PM

The thread drift toward an emphasis on the number of regatta participants in training classes ignores the pressure or encouragement applied by National authorities to boost these fleets.Moth sailors are doing it because they want to.The odd breakage is part of the development process and the boats will continue to evolve.If you show a non-sailor a photograph of a foiing Moth and one of a Laser,which loks more spectacular?

CT 249

06-20-2006, 07:58 PM

1) The first thread on the numbers of boats in championship fleets actually specifically referred to the fact that some classes are supported by authority squads.

2) Looking at figures it's hard to see a direct link between being a squad class and being a popular class. Look at the low support for the Finn, 49er, 470 etc. The Hobie Dragoon, the fastest of the Junior boats, got only 10 boats at the nationals.

Here in the teen's trap boats it seems that the AYF supported 420 and 29er are similar in popularity to the 125 and Cherub which don't get the same support. The Laser Open Men's class (which feeds the squad) has actually DROPPED in popularity over the years - the numbers have been increased by the Masters (who don't get squad support). The Radial class here in Sydney never used to get AYF support but it was still very big and very competitive.

Having said that, the Junior class I'm running is looking for AYF recognition. It won't hurt. It's also a slow class, because this branch of the sport has followed the fast and spectacular route more than any other branch of sailing., and is down to about 8% of what it used to be nationally. The branch of the sport is just starting to realise the error.

Ok the squad seems to help at Junior level but if we're trying to see whether being fast makes boats more popular, we should surely look at those who actually join the RYA Youth classes and go to the nationals.

Fastest boat is the Hobie 16 - 8 entries at the Youth nats.
Second fastest is the RSX board - 17 entries at the Youth nats.
........or the 29er - 33 entries at the Youth nats.
Fourth fastest is the Laser - 38 entries.
Fifth fastest (I think) is the 420- 41 entries.
Slowest (I think) is the Radial - 109 entries.

So even in the RYA nationals, more of the kids actually sail the slower boats! And the Hobie and RSX have probably at least as much corporate backing as the Laser and way more than the 420. It's not even related to age of design.

3) Does a Moth look more spectacular than a Laser? Yes. But what does that mean? Where is the link between looking spectacular and actually attracting bums on boats? A foiling Moth looks more spectacular than a US or French Classic Moth, British Moth, Europe, or NZ Moth, but the old Moths are more popular in each country. None of these classes are supported by the RYA etc are they, so we can take that factor out. None of them has a big builder with big ads, so we can take that out. We're left with the fact that the fabulous modern Int Moth is not more popular than the "boring" old Moths.

An 18 Foot Skiff looks spectacular but very, very few people own one. A windsurfer doing a double loop looks a lot more spectacular than an old longboard drifting on a lake, but more people sailed windsurfers before it was spectacular than sail them today. A 40' tri looks more spectacular than a Farr 40 or Beneteau 40.7, but which is more popular? The current Sydney-Hobart boats are more spectacular than the old IOR boats, but the fleet is down. Sportsboats here are more spectacular than old trailer-sailers, but here the TYs are more popular.

Is there any evidence that looking spectacular actually attracts people to sail? I certainly cannot find any evidence about it.

YA or ISAF surveys have shown that what people puts people off sailing is not any perceived boredom, but fears that it is expensive, elitist and difficult. How does showing a Moth on foils make sailing look less difficult, expensive or elitist?

It's great that Moth sailors sail the boats they want. No-one's doubting they're great boats. But surely if being spectacular increases popularity, there should be SOME evidence to support that belief.

Doug Lord

06-20-2006, 09:30 PM

From what I've heard current foiler Moth manufacturer's are pretty well backlogged and a new manufacturer- KA Sails- is making a major investment in brand new tooling from the foils on up in a Moth/ Bladerider One Design. Generally, people in business don't just throw money out for the hell of it: from what they say and from what they are doing KA seems to believe that there is "phenomenal interest" in their new product. So it seems to me that one could say that there is "some evidence" that the most spectacular and quite possibly one of the fastest boats under 20'-the foiler Moth is generating a whole lot of serious interest. To say that the foiler Moth is not more popular than the "boring old Moth" is very likely someones wish as opposed to an actual fact given the level of recent investment in the manufacturing side of this remarkable boat.
Below, is another example of "some evidence" of the interest in the foiler Moth from Rohan Veal, World Champion in the Class:

Subject: Australian Moth Mailing List - Sail Melbourne 2007 invite
I have been asked by the chair of the Sail Melbourne International Regatta to see how many Foiler Moths would be interested in competing in the Olympic and Invited Classes Regatta -
http://www.sailmelbourne.com.au/event/olympicandinvitedclassesregatta2007
This is the only ISAF grade 1 event in Australia, and generally they only accept popular and well attended invited classes, however they said they will make an exception with the Moth class due to the attention it brings.
Courses and races will be short and close to shore.
The event starts on the 15 Jan, which is the week after the Australian National Moth Championships in Southern Queesnland (15 hours drive away).
For International competitors, I will see what I can do about arranging some charter boats.
If you are interested in attending, please let me know on email.
Thanks
____________________________________
Rohan Veal
International Moth Class Association of Victoria www.moth.asn.au
Email: rohan@moth.asn.au
Mobile: +61 414 538 959
______________________________________________
Australian Moth Mailing List
moth@moth.asn.au
www.moth.asn.au
http://redback.adroit.net/mailman/listinfo/moth

RHough

06-20-2006, 10:16 PM

... This is the only ISAF grade 1 event in Australia, and generally they only accept popular and well attended invited classes, however they said they will make an exception with the Moth class due to the attention it brings.

How does anyone else understand this?

That the Moth is NOT a popular and well attended class?

(But they put on a good show) :)

CT 249

06-20-2006, 10:20 PM

"To say that the foiler Moth is not more popular than the "boring old Moth" is very likely someones wish as opposed to an actual fact given the level of recent investment in the manufacturing side of this remarable boat."

Doug.

It's not a "wish", but fact. Look at

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=44

for British nationals figures for old British Moths and Europes. Look at the Int Moth's numbers - they are smaller and not even all of them are foilers or narrow skiffs.

So how can you possibly say that a class that gets a smaller number of boats in total is more popular than classes that get more boats? Where is the evidence that this is merely a wish? Has someone been hacking the Y&Y website to change the figures?

Look at the number of modern skinny Moths in the US and France compared to the number of Europes and Classics.I think there's something like 3 narrow skiffs in the whole USA. The fat-boat fleet is much bigger than that.

Look at NZ's list of active Moths

http://nz.moth-sailing.org/active.htm

13 NZ Moths (one design version of the '40s Mk 2 wingless scow)

3 Scows
6 Elder and Wagstaff skiffs (from as early as '66 - much fatter than a "normal fat" skiff I think you'll find, look at the bottom of page 1 of the pics and you'll see some).
4 unspecified.
6 narrow skiffs

So we have 6 (maybe 10, in the unlikely event that all the 4 "unspecified" are narrow skiffs) "modern" boats and 22 old boats.

Now, there we have hard, undeniable numbers from a Moth class website that prove exactly what was said. The old boats are more popular. How can you argue with them? I think Shane runs the class, he's a fine guy and a foiler sailor I think- is he manipulating the figures to hide foilers? Not likely.

Look at IMCA, check out the pages. The fat older boats (Europes, NZ Moths, Classics etc) are undeniably vastly more popular in the countries where both old and new Moth classes are sailed. In Australia a significant proportion of the Int Moths are scows or fat skiffs.

One hotspot of foiling (Victoria) got 9 boats to the states - just 2 foilers. WA, the other hotspot in foiling history, doesn't seem to have a state title any more. I believe the remaining club fleet is scows. They still get lots of 14s, Skates, Lasers, Sharpies, even GP 14s!

That may not be ideal, it may not be what we want, it may not be a good thing, but as far as I can see it is a fact and it should be recognised.

Why not try giving us some facts and figures and links instead of empty assertions and accusations of dishonesty?

Chris Ostlind

06-20-2006, 11:12 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Doug, but aren't you the guy who just quit this discussion in a fit, trying to do the right thing by not hijacking the thread.

Now, here you are, back again with the last word as it seems.

I'm thinkin' of fashioning a character after you in the adventure book I'm writing in my spare time.

Chris

frosh

06-21-2006, 12:17 AM

My home has been in Perth Western Australia since 1970. Then it was a city of a little over half a million population. Three of the local yacht clubs had as their main fleet, scow Australian Moths. Perhaps three more clubs had a regular Moth contingent but not as their main fleet. Any summer weekend there would be in excess of 80 boats racing altogether and more boats just out for recreation.
Remember that Perth is the home of a lot of Moth development foiler wise recently. (John Ilett resides here). I still go out on the Swan River regularly and look for the Moth silhouette on any sail within sight and it is very rare to see even one.
What in bloody hell has happened? The population has at least doubled in Perth now, but becoming more technical, more elitist, more difficult to sail and maintain, and a lot more expensive, has essentially killed the Moth class.
I don't give a F--- if a few Perth based boats regularly go to Nationals and Worlds, or a Moth were to hold some speed record, as when my son might have been interested to get into a high performance singlehander, Moths were no longer being raced at club level. I wonder how new blood can be injected into a class when there is no club level racing.
In fact within the last decade possibly 75% of dinghys are raced by Juniors.
As has been stated many times already the dropout rate is huge and any solutions to arrest and reverse this trend are urgently needed.

Doug Lord

06-21-2006, 08:38 AM

Chris Ostlind

06-21-2006, 09:51 AM

First of all, Doug, the phrase you use, "there are three manufacturers of foiler Moths going wide open", hardly represents anything earth shattering in the total numbers of boats being put into the marketing stream. The cash needed to produce well-made tools is not a huge amount of money, but the overall marketing budget can get way out of control in a hurry if not prudently managed.

The builders of these boats could view this outlay as a lot of money if they are just scraping by like most small manufacturers in the boating industry, but they can also view the outlay as a reasonable amount if the product finds a good market footing. Like any business issue, the plunge is a gamble that is hopefully calculated to produce positive cash flow.

All you have to do is look around at the rate of failure for small business enterprise and you'll see that getting to the positive side of things is not always successful.

Yes, Doug, maybe they do have the capacity to make them, but the trick is to actually sell them for more than it costs to build them and THEN, to get more to buy them in succession or the whole thing goes poof. Like I said before, the twitching enthusiasts are already on-board for the cheeseburger ride. What's necessary now is the market penetration into the buyers who are much more reluctant.

I'd guess, offhand, that the builders can, maybe, produce a finished foiler a week out of a small shop if they had suitably trained help who came to work everyday in a coherent state. The boats are complex to build, have very precise lamination schedules and must be assembled carefully before fitting out.

One the other hand, the BIC boats can roll out of the rotomolding oven at the tune of one every 30 minutes or so in full-tilt operation. Another two hours, give or take, for the fitting out process and BAM, you've got a boat. If BIC has several tools operating for each given style of hull they produce, then the numbers increase dramatically for daily output. BIC will also have to contend with the trained help issue and the daily coherence, except that the tasks, individually, are nowhere near as critical in their need for a reasonable amount of experience in the medium.

Baseline, utilitarian sailing is timeless in nature for kids. It's amazing, really, that the same boats that were used when I was a kid learning to sail, can be used to day. If they were maintained, the same craft could go get into the fleet and the kid could have a blast slamming around in the pack with the rest of the kids.

Today's Foilers remaining competitive some thirty years from now? Not hardly, but they will make for a curious site in a vintage display on the beach. High tech boats like these will not be anywhere near competitive within three years if the typical trend in product development continues on existing modeling.

Personally, I view a $1500 computer as an expendable item in the high tech parade, but not a fragile boat that hits my wallet for more than $10,000. Its at this point that practicality and good sense is supposed to kick-in and your senses let you admire the efforts of the foiling crowd without actually jumping-in for the financial beating that it will take to be involved.

Let's use the average, FRP beach cat as an example. Brand new, they run well over $10,000. Even a boat that is nicely maintained and not sailed too hard or put through frequent hairy landing scenarios, will only fetch half of what it originally cost three years from now. And that's a boat with no trick materials, no fiddly appendages and it's one that has remained technologically connected for its lifetime.

If you want your boating investment to make sense, then buying into high tech, unless you are a racer of the highest order, makes no sense at all. That's quite a marketing hump to overcome with hype, Doug.

I tell you what. Why not extend an invitation to the foiler builders to produce their expected manufacturing numbers, their marketing plans and their target market strategies for you to publish here. Ask them to address the issues of how they hope to get young sailors into their craft for future expansion of the niche and how they expect to compete with existing youth development boats that cost less than a fourth of the price of their boats.

You get that stuff for us, without the usual hypothesizing on your part for purposes of proving the smoke is more substantive than the pure vapor that is presently being pushed forth and we'll listen with a collective, open mind on the issue.

And you still haven't answered the question about your status as a parent of a prospective sailing wizard. OR, how the work progresses on the wonder cheesburger AeroSkifferoo sitting in your garage incomplete. That's the other half of the assignment for your credibility; answer the questions as they pertain to you. No hypothesizing necessary, just tell the truth.

usa2

06-21-2006, 10:22 AM

I would say that KA invested money in the tooling for the Moth/Bladerider/whatever not because of "phenomenal" demand, but rather as a way to make their name known. Probably every boat at the Moth Worlds will start using foils. But this represents a very small percentage of the Moth class.

One reason these people may doubt you Doug, is that you said basically the same thing about canting keels-how they are neccarsary on big racers, how they would become numerous and make obselete fixed keels. Well, today there are only 7 large racers with canting keels(not counting Open Classes).
So you would understand why one is hesitant to fully accept your theories on Moth popularity.

RHough

06-21-2006, 10:24 AM

CT, I'm just curious: where are all the new boats going? If my information is correct and there are three manufacturers of foiler Moths going wide open, just what is going on?

Did you also take GM's claims about Corvair production and Ford's claims about Pinto production at face value?

From what I've heard current foiler Moth manufacturer's are pretty well backlogged and a new manufacturer- KA Sails- is making a major investment in brand new tooling from the foils on up in a Moth/ Bladerider One Design. Generally, people in business don't just throw money out for the hell of it: from what they say and from what they are doing KA seems to believe that there is "phenomenal interest" in their new product.

Interest does not equal sales.

If Foiling Moths have been around since 1999 and production was 1 per week, that would mean that there are 300+ foiling moths on the water today. Does anyone have some numbers that would suggest that there are 300+ Moth foilers around?

Assume there are.

Assume 25% gross profit on each $15,000 boat for $3750 gross profit per unit. $3750 x 300 = $1,125,000 gross profit for their fleet over 6 years, for $187,500 profit per year.

If there are three builders, each thriving business has $62,500 per year income.

I don't know about Florida, but in most places a $62,500 Gross Profit per year business is small change.

My last service department grossed $120,000 per month, $62,500 per year is nothing.

Doug Lord

06-21-2006, 06:54 PM

Now this is cool; I posted the pix before but not the caption that goes with it:
From Rohan Veal-
" Smokin' around Hazelwood Pondage doing 16 knots upwind at the 2006 Sauna Sail."
PICT0094.jpg?story=1781
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/2006_saunasail/PICT0094.jpg?story=1781 Changed:2:22 AM on Monday, June 12, 2006

CT 249

06-21-2006, 10:46 PM

"CT, I'm just curious: where are all the new boats going? If my information is correct and there are three manufacturers of foiler Moths going wide open, just what is going on?"

It looks like over 20 of them have gone to the UK; probably considerably more but 18 foilers raced in last year's Opens (check the UK website). More have gone to Europe and Australia, obviously. Considering I think all builders are small, I think you'll find they don't have the capacity to build dozens and dozens.

"Could it possibly be that the "facts" you presented in your inimitable way"

Doug, I am finding it hard to restrain myself in the face of your behaviour in slurring the honesty of people who discuss things with you. I gave URLs for much of that information. Anyone familiar with the rules of courteous discussion would have tried to point out any errors (which I do not believe exist) rather than throw around slurs of dishonesty.

Yes I have made some errors in the past - you have made them too yet I do not accuse you of dishonesty in the way you so disgustingly do.

Of COURSE those figures represent "80 or so years of non foiler Moth production". The point that was in dispute was that whether the foiler was "more popular than the "boring old Moth". My figures were responding to your point about the POPULARITY of the Moth foiler and not the FUTURE popularity. The reason was NOT in dispute. Don't shift the ground now.

"Gee, I wonder if it's possible that the numbers you refer to just don't reflect the reality of the situation; ya think?"

What would any logical person do to find the reality? Blindly believe you assertions (with no facts referenced) or actually look at the active centres of the class by looking up Moth websites? I have chosen to do the latter and it looks as if the numbers of "boring old" Moths (ie non foilers) are clearly higher than the number of foilers. What about you stop making wild assertions and present FACTS (with URLs and other information) to bolster your case?

Here's some more info from the Australia Moth site

http://www.moth.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=399

From the NSW state titles last season -

"Final results:
Scott Babbage, Chris Dey, Les Thorpe, Ian Ward, Pete Harney, Phil Stevenson, Steve Donovan

Scow: Dave Henderson
Lady: Lee Gray
Junior and Sub Junior: Sam Mc Knight
Fat Skiff: Josh McKnight
Master: Ian Ward

25 entries. 6 foilers, 7 scows, 2 fat skiffs, 10 skiffs.

Last days winds light and shifty SW in morning then two races with slightly more relable SE.
Les won one Scott won two.

Full spreadsheet soon on Aust web site.
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jmac

Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: NSW States at SMSC/NSC Reply with quote
Phil make that 8 scows. (Kylie, Lee, Jon, Ian, Andrew, Jeremy, Jim, & David). and 9 skiffs.

John"

That's from the Australian Moth site - six foilers, 8 scows, 9 skiffs. NSW is probably the next biggest group of Int. Moths after the UK.

A foiler sailor refers to the club (Northbridge) on that website as "the home of Australia's current largest moth fleet, mostly scows".

http://www.moth.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=376

So the biggest state fleet and biggest club fleet in Australia both have more scows than foilers.

The last Queesland titles (second biggest fleet) on the 'net show a fleet mainly of scows and fat skiffs.

http://www.moth.asn.au/racing/2005/2005qld_states.html

In the UK there were 18 active foilers in Opens last year out of 34 entries overall. The foilers did more events. So yes in the UK there is a strong shift towards foilers, but it looks like there are many more OD versions of old Moths (Europes, British Moths) in the country than foilers WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

Remember, your assertion that I'm making facts up about the UK nationals could have been checked by you JUST BY CLICKING ON THE YACHTS AND YACHTING NATIONALS ATTENDANCE CHART! I think the case is well proven. You provide no figures, no URLs, no facts to demonstrate your claim that foilers are more popular than "boring old Moths". I have provided URLs, regatta results and facts to demonstrate that "boring old Moths" are in fact MORE popular than foilers.

PS - Doug, no reply to Frosh's point that foilers are rarely to be seen in Perth, home of the foiler? What does it say about your idea that they will be enormously popular if they aren't much to be seen in the place that basically developed them? Even there my understanding is that there are actually more active scows than foilers (but I am not sure).

frosh

06-22-2006, 05:31 AM

Doug, You have admitted that you have never sailed a foiler Moth, yet you advocate them so fanatically. How have you reached so strong a point of view? Why don't you get one from KA as they are going "huge" on production now (according to you). Then spend a day trying to sail one, even a week if you like. Then you will be in a better position to tell us if this the best dinghy in 100 years as you have claimed previously.
As far as the previous "boring old versions", of the International Moth, have you ever sailed one in moderate to fresh winds? PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION SIMPLY! YES or NO will do thank you.
It is my experience and that of many others that at least from the Peter Cole "Mouldie" of 1963 and onwards, that the Aussie Moth and later the International Moth were anything but boring.
To claim that they are/were, is to denigrate many excellent designs and all the thousands of sailors who have owned one over the years.
It also hints strongly at your ignorance, probably due to you being an armchair sailor and self proclaimed critic. Is this why you now specialize in RC model yachts?
Please correct me if I am wrong and I will admit that I have been mistaken in my assessment of you. (If I believe your reply) :mad:

Doug Lord

06-22-2006, 07:06 AM

CT, I apologize that you feel I called you dishonest-I did not intend that at all. However, in the past you have manipulated facts to suit your case and I have called you on it. I don't have time to thoroughly research your figures now but, regardless: I do not believe you to be "dishonest" but merely prone to stretching a point or drawing conclusions not warranted by all the facts.
-----------------
Mister Frosh, you tread a fine line of personal attack in your posts directed AT me which makes the substance of your posts worth very little. When you accuse me of calling the Moth boring you show that you obviously have not read this thread. CT249 used that term and I was quoting/paraphrasing him-try reading all the material before making such wholly absurd comments.See his post #75, point #3
I would never consider any Moth boring.....

Chris Ostlind

06-22-2006, 09:31 AM

Shocked am I!

Mr. Douglas Lord has apologized for something he said that was not based in fact. Savor the moment folks, it's not likely to happen again in our lifetimes.

I believe it was a quaint phrase that was so casually tossed-out by gggGuest (when he made his single, hit and run appearance on one of the foily cheesburger threads that are scattered about here) when he said,

... never wrestle with a pig, because you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

It's fun when the turn of a dumb phrase comes back to bite those who first tossed it

Mr. Lord will resort to anything he deems fair practice when he finds himself cornered. Truth is, all he had to do from the very beginning was agree that he got it wrong and needs to rethink his concept. The admission would be refreshing, if not entirely overdue, and it would allow Mr. Lord to move on to another spunky topic such as the new, bubble jet technology from entrained layers, without being hammered into the beach to await the tide.

Well, that, or run for elected office where others of this type seem to congregate. One doesn't need substance to become a politician. Just a willingness to spew hyperbole.

Do you have any kids, Doug?

Where's the magnificent AeroSkifferoo, Doug?

frosh

06-23-2006, 05:20 AM

Hi Doug (I didn't address you as Mister, as I wanted to keep it friendly), your latest post was the first where you say that no version of the Moth is boring. Thank you for that concession. I am not in the business of doing any personal attacks, it is only an attack on some of the material in your posts, which is bordering on unreality and wishful thinking.
Also your refusal to acknowledge and reply to fair and reasonable questions from the other posters is quite infuriating. At least acknowledge that you have read the question but for whatever reason you prefer not to answer it.
I believe that generally the substance of my posts is worth more than very little. However many people believe and have shown the evidence that the substance of many of your posts are simply argumentative with no factual basis.
The apology to CT 249 was a surprise, and his use of the adjective "boring" was clearly tongue in cheek in describing older non foiling Moths.
Problem I have, is that from the perspective of you not having sailed any Moths, you honestly do believe that alongside the latest "cheeseburger" any older version must be somehow unworthy of any praise and should just not make the appearances in the numbers they do at various championships.
Could it possibly be that many sailors prefer them! I wonder why? :)

Stephen Ditmore

06-23-2006, 09:20 AM

When calculating the world's Moth population, don't forget to include all those Europe one-designs. The Europe was originally the Europa Moth, and now that Europe is no longer an Olympic class, it's a great time to buy one and race it as a Moth!

To race as a Classic Moth, the upper roach and upper batten may have to be trimmed a little. To race as a Modern or International Moth means buying a new sail - and possibly a new mast - and adding racks. T-foils? -- that's up to you!

The Moth is, of course, a development class. While the number of boats may be less than one-design classes, the number of designs is greater. Thus, the influence and visibility, and I would argue the fun, is greater. The number of Volvo 70s, or TransPac 52s, is not huge either.... but they're exciting and very visible! And their numbers are likely to increase, as have the Open 60s and MiniTransats.

CT 249

06-23-2006, 10:55 AM

Amen to all that, Stephen.

Can I just reinforce that I don't think any of us in this thread are anti development class. I think many of us (like me) are very interested in development classes and would love to see them doing a lot better than they are at the moment. That's why we want to see some realism - because only a realistic look at what makes boats popular will help us to work out how to make development classes more popular again.

I would certainly argue that the fun is greater - if it was, people would get development classes. It's perhaps just different in the same way that the fun of offshore racing yachts is different from the fun of Lasers or of wavesailing windsurfers.

Here in the states of New South Wales, we used to have 200 Moths registered according to class returns. We'd all love it if that returned, it would be great to work out to make it happen in a realistic manner rather than just hyping the performance route which has clearly been a major failure in terms of increasing popularity (NOT in other terms, the fast boats are great).

Doug Lord

06-23-2006, 03:25 PM

usa2

06-23-2006, 04:06 PM

"But I've said it a million times: this is only the begining of the monofoiler revolution...."

You also said the same thing about canting keels.. So I assume we will see some parallels?

Doug Lord

06-23-2006, 04:32 PM

Well,2, why don't you start a topic on the future of canting keels and I'll jump right in. Way before it happened I said that canting keels would revolutionize large monohulls- and they have with almost every major ocean race either having been won by or sailed in canting keel mono's. They have unquestionably proved themselves as the fastest technology used on monohull ocean racers TO THIS POINT. But technology is changing so fast that I think that, if the rules allow them, a new breed of foiled fixed/canting keel monos using on-deck movable ballast will raise the speed level to an altogether new and higher level.
But this thread is not about sailing schools or monohull ocean racers or canting keel boats-but you start the party in it's own thread and I will be there,ok?!

Stephen Ditmore

06-23-2006, 04:51 PM

There quite simply has NEVER been a small sailboat like this boat-regularly beating much larger boats and there has never been an 11 or 12' monohull sailboat that beats much larger catamarans around a course in conditions suitable to them both...the performance of the foiler Moth is like nothing else in history(fact not hype) in it's size range-both low speed,high speed and round the course.

Actually I think there is a precident. Sailboards. I think even the Moth foilers have to give the sailboard credit for being there first.

And I think the question concerning both is the same. Is it sufficiently user friendly to be taken seriously as a boat? Will it lead to something I'd take my wife & kids sailing in, or sail to Bermuda?

And then there's the question that does seem pertinate to this thread, Doug ....when are we going to see you at a Moth regatta?

Doug Lord

06-23-2006, 06:30 PM

Stephen, no windsurfer I know can do 14 knots in a 5 knot breeze as Andrew of KA claims his new Bladerider can. While there are some similarities the differences are significant; especially if you listen to some detractors of windsurfing when they say that is "not sailing".I think both have made major historical contributions to sailing . But in my mind the "proof of concept" represented by the bi-foil hydrofoil system on the Moth has huge potential implications for the future of monohull design in a way the windsurfer never will. There are at least two major development programs aimed at applying the bi-foil hydrofoil system, first proved on the Moth, to larger monohull keelboats.There is no such direct application of windsurfing technology in ocean racing that I am aware of. And I believe that hydrofoil technology applied to monohull keelboats can be as safe as any other highspeed high performance sailboat in the ocean-but taking your wife and kids to Bermuda on a large monofoiler may take a while to become realistic though being able to take them on a daysail may not be all that far away.
As to me coming to a Moth regatta-man I'd love to but I'm waay too heavy to be competitive in the class-that's why I've built one foiler and am getting ready to build another.
A Moth regatta in the states with foiler participation will be a great event; do you see it happening anytime soon?

Stephen Ditmore

06-23-2006, 07:01 PM

I was hoping a surprise foiler would appear last Saturday in Brigantine NJ, but it didn't happen. The Modern Moth class is alive in the Americas, though, thanks to Scott Sandell - so the venue exists. If you're right about the foilers being dramatically faster you could still be the first to show up & sweep, and a few extra pounds shouldn't stop you.

Scott'll doubtless be writing about the Brigantine regatta in MOTHBALLS! (http://www.mothboat.com/USMMCA/newsletters.htm) before long, and he's ready for a meetup in Sag Harbor anytime. I wish I could reveal Scott's future plans, but the when & where for that is his call. I'm after him to focus on the Americas in the next MOTHBALLS! (http://www.mothboat.com/USMMCA/newsletters.htm) issue. Hopefully people like you and Phil Locker (http://www.philsfoils.com/) will give Scott something to write about without having to burn up transoceanic cables!

Once I've finished my Classic Moth (http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=38) and sailed it around a little, I'm interested in the possibility of developing a kit of precut Dibond (http://www.ainplastics.com/public/division/project/html/products.jsp?id=1.7) panels so that anyone can build a Moth, Classic or Modern. Perhaps you could work with Sam Bradfield or Tom Speer to develop a foil kit to go with my hull kit...? I'm thinking my hull will be a little narrower than the Classic Moth I'm currently building, but wider than the Australian Moths, so that a wider slice of humanity can sail fast! Should you be ready with a T-foil kit before I'm ready with a new hull, Bob Ames has a hull design ready, and there's that plan of Scott's I can't tell you about...

Cheers,
Stephen

Doug Lord

06-23-2006, 07:18 PM

Stephen , I know of at least two Fastacraft foilers coming to USA/Canada and KA Sail says they are "negotiating" with a US distributor for the Bladerider. From SA it appears that maybe a few Moth foiler wanabe's may be being built in the NE US and from the Moth forum I think I've read posts from two US foiler wannabe's one in Florida and one in North or South Carolina.
Unfortunately, 160 pounds is about the top end for competitive foiling in the Moth class. Rohan Veal, World Champion is in the 140's. I think I read that Sam Pascoe of the UK is around 180 and therefore does well at top end speed according to Rohan.
Thats why there is a need for a Peoples Foiler for the rest of us or maybe matching sail area to weight in the Moth class- but the politics of that would be impossible more than likely.

Stephen Ditmore

06-23-2006, 07:36 PM

Are you suggesting, to make Moths appealing to more people, we give them MORE sail?

Doug Lord

06-23-2006, 07:44 PM

I haven't looked at that idea specifically in reference to the Moth but look at the specs for the aeroSKIFF under "Peoples Foiler": 130 sq.ft. SA on a 14' hull with a max crew weight of 250.
If you go to the KA Sail Bladerider site(earlier post) you'll find that they are offering a new non class legal sail with one square meter more area for exactly that purpose.

RHough

06-23-2006, 11:38 PM

I think that you're probably wrong CT. There are two threads on SA just effervescing with enthusiasm for the foiler Moth. According to many I've talked to in the US ,Austalia, the UK and Italy there has never been as much interest the Moth as there is now because of the super refined bifoil system. And I have to go back to the clear cut evidence of at least three builders (mentioned earlier) devoting much of their existing or soon to be existing production to the foiler Moth. One company claims that it's initial capacity will be 16 per month.

If we go by threads in SA (Dinghy), the hotest thread is about the Voodoo 16 Skiff. (828 Replies) Moths in NE US is 2nd with 218 Replies ... 3rd is 181 replies in a thread about two guys bashing each other. 5 of the top 10 threads are about skiffs.

Conclusions?
1. A 16ft Skiff has generated 4 times more interest than the Moth
2. The Moth has generated slightly more interest than two skiff sailors calling each other names.
3. Interest at SA is no measure of anything.

If EVERY ONE of the 218 relies in the Moth thread bought a new cheeseburger, at 16 per month the orders would be filled in 13 months.

In the last 5 years there have been about 45 boats at the Moth worlds, less than 40 at the Europeans.

If foilers are the latest and greatest and have been around since 1999, why have the numbers remained the same (43 Boats in 2000, 41 in 2003 47 in 2005)? In 2005 50% of the 37 boat fleet at the Europeans were foilers. With 3 builders of foiler Moths, where are all the new boats?

Where is the market for 16 boats a month from ONE builder in a open class?

If foilers and KA's Bladerider are going to make the Moth class healthy, why would IMCA President Mark Robinson say:

"The International Moth is currently at the bare minimum in terms of numbers/countries for us to continue as an ISAF International Class, and this is something IMCA thinks is imperative if we are to remain an effective healthy class, particularly in the UK and European markets where there are hundreds of classes all jostling for a position in the sailing world.

As far as the representation at the ISAF Mid-year meetings, this was a representation by a commercial entity (KA Sail) seeking feedback on the possibility of a derivative of the Moth (the Bladerider with a 9m sail) making it into the Olympics in 2012 or 2016. There were neither official agenda items concerning the Bladerider or the Moth class discussed nor any votes taken at ISAF level at this meeting.

As IMCA President, I have had a number of conversations with the senior ISAF Vice President (David Kellett from AUS), and stressed that this is not something supported by the Moth class in general particularly as the Moth is a development class and wishes to remain as such and also as ISAF tends to only favour 'one-design' type classes for the Olympics due to issues of level playing field in the Olympic Charter. He agreed with this position.

We both agreed that it would be a long road ahead if KA Sail wanted to get the boat into the Olympics as there is not even a place for a 'high performance single hander' at the moment. Thus they first need to convince the ISAF Council (100+ member countries) that there is a need for this discipline in the Olympics, and then convince them that an 'evaluation event' needs to be conducted.

Gee it doesn't sound like the Moth guys are real keen on the Bladerider ... much less effervescing with enthusiasm :)

There quite simply has NEVER been ... <hype snipped> ... but it has sure shown up in publicity: there has been more on the Moth in Seahorse in the last few years than probably ever before. And there are other indications like the invitation for the foiler Moth to participate in a major ISAF invitation only regatta-the only one of it's type in Australia; ...

Seahorse? LOL
"Seahorse Magazine... Seahorse the world's only dedicated offshore sailboat racing magazine."

Coverage in a offshore racing magazine from the UK? WOW! LOL

Moth's offshore ... what a concept! :)

As far as the "major ISAF invitation" goes ...

This is the only ISAF grade 1 event in Australia, and generally they only accept popular and well attended invited classes, however they said they will make an exception with the Moth class due to the attention it brings.

That makes the Moths what? A sideshow? Like bearded ladies and two-headed boys at a carnival?

Chris Ostlind

06-24-2006, 12:47 AM

Doug,

Your minions await your response to Hough's comments.

Please let us know when the next iteration of the ArrowSkifferoo will be available. Truth is, you don't have any money for the enterprise, Eric is long gone with his association with the project and you’re just slinging hot air...again… as to the viability of the Arrow Skifferoo boat as a workable, feasible project.

And while you're at it, please tell us if you have any kids who are of the age to sail solo in a development, or one design, class so we can verify your relevant understanding of what it takes to get "hooked-up" with a proper sailing effort as a youngster.

Personally, I don't think you have one iota of a clue as to what it's like in this regard. I doubt that you have any kids at all, have little, to no, experience in the field of kids sailing, much less sports in general and are way out of your depth in this regard.

Out of your depth.

Please tell me this isn't so?

We, collectively, await your response... Oh King of the Foiler huff.

Chris

frosh

06-24-2006, 05:24 AM

Chris, "his majesty", king of foils, aint gonna answer any more questions, if in fact he has ever answered to any of his critics. It seems to me that his life is mainly about seeking attention through these forums. He gets a lot of negative attention, and occasionally seems to con some-one to worship at his footstool. Obviously he has nothing from personal experience worth relating to us, that know a little more.
But it doesnt matter to him! All attention he gets is great for massaging his ego.
What is more irksome is that reading between the lines his majesty has no care in the world whether the sport we love provides any pleasure for the masses. And whether the kids will have a viable infrastructure for learning the basics of sailing and getting into racing at a beginners level in a decades time. I suspect he doesn't have any, and why care about any one elses kids? He is only barracking for the elitist few, who seek glory in being the first to achieve a specific goal, (such as 27.7 knots) In their achievement he hopes to bask in some sort of reflected glory.
In reply to pertinent questions you get huff and puff such as:
"Stephen, no windsurfer I know can do 14 knots in a 5 knot breeze as Andrew of KA claims his new Bladerider can."

and also:

"And I believe that hydrofoil technology applied to monohull keelboats can be as safe as any other highspeed high performance sailboat in the ocean."

In the first instance this is still wishful thinking, and in the second may he be blessed with being the first to head out into the open ocean on such a yacht.
He might be suprised to learn that IMCA has got pretty close to being at a critical mass (going downwards) for the Moth to continue as a recognised international class. The UK might be doing OK but I don't believe any other countries have anything to boast about regarding their turnout at Moth events.
There is no way that Moth sailing would have got to the sad state it is in within Australia (which was the main stronghold for fleets for several decades), if we had kept going as the scow Aussie Moth. Probably about three people would argue that it is not in a sad state as now a few of them go so quickly. I say so what? What has it done for the sport in broader terms?

Doug Lord

06-24-2006, 08:19 AM

Stephen, foil kits are available now from Fastacraft(www.fastacraft.com) and may also be available from Full force; I don't think the Bladerider foils are available as a ready to go kit yet.Fastacraft uses a unique method of joining the foils-I have two sets(one for about 5 years ,one for about 2 1/2 years) that have never failed in rigorous use-I highly recommend them.
I think I read on SA that Steve Clark or a friend of his may be trying to come up with a foil kit as well.
Whatever you do make sure that you get the altitude control system(wand) matched for your foils-that will save a bunch of time.

RHough

06-24-2006, 12:51 PM

... I have two sets(one for about 5 years ,one for about 2 1/2 years) that have never failed in rigorous use-

5 years? ... and no successful foiler? What are you using them for?

Chris Ostlind

06-24-2006, 05:19 PM

Structural armatures for plaster lawn gnomes?

I hear Doug's yard in Florida is festooned in plaster Gnomes, deer, rabbits and other sensitive forest creatures.

sigurd

06-26-2006, 10:19 PM

frosh, Chris Ostlind, Rhough you are being derogatory.

Chris Ostlind

06-26-2006, 10:42 PM

Perhaps. Though it's a lengthy context and has to be completely read to be appreciated.

I take it then, Sigurd, that you might be known to have a Gnome or two on your lawn? ;-)

DSmith

06-26-2006, 11:00 PM

Maybe you should take this over to Sailing Anarchy (www.sailinganarchy.com/forums) so that people can have some serious technical discussions on boat design(.net).

frosh

06-26-2006, 11:27 PM

Hi Sigurd and DSmith, Chris is right about the context being important. The three of us have no desire to post derogatory items and I would argue if any have in fact been undeservedly so. Mr Lord seems to have little desire to engage in a technical exchange of ideas that are in fact grounded in reality. I did notice that Mr Lord has been very quiet the last few days, as we had posed him a few questions (which were easy to answer) relevant to the thread; questions that he chooses to ignore, which is his prerogative.
I (speaking for myself, but likely the other two also) am very into design as opposed to hype, and love the opportunity to make any sort of useful technical or practical contribution. In addition the three referred to, have between them commenced many serious threads. :)

Chris Ostlind

06-26-2006, 11:28 PM

So, what is your technical contribution, DSmith?

And for that matter, why do all the conversations have to be about issues that are technical in nature? Why can't they be aesthetic, or even value driven discussions? They're both important elements in sailboat design.

How about practical matters such as socially redeeming in nature or explorative form studies?

On the front page of the forums available, the subheading under the topic sailboats presents this as a quote: "Discuss monohull sailboats - production and custom - and sailboat design"

It doesn't say technical issues only. But as long as we have you on the line... What's your technical preference. We can go there if it looks interesting.

sigurd

06-27-2006, 12:15 AM

(1st photo from http://www.flickr.com/photos/weelittlegnome/26257452/)

Chris Ostlind

06-27-2006, 12:28 AM

Yeah, the fish kite is very technical in nature if flown properly, so DSmith would probably like it, though I'm not going to advocate the standing-up routine in a boat that small while flying that much fish.

A "little gnome in a boat" Is that a euphemism? The little dude is kinda cool and would look good on the foredeck of a retro foiler. Please tell me it's a bobble head model?

Doug Lord

06-27-2006, 07:50 PM

From Rohan Veal's website for Tuedsay, June 27,2006"
" Finally got out for a sail on Sunday off Black Rock in a nice 10-18 knots, and sailed up to Sandringham to do some short course racing against some local 420's. Ended up nearly doing 2 laps to their 1 lap everytime."
-------
420-LOA- 13.75', SA 110sq.ft. upwind ; 205 sq.ft. dowmwind.
---
Moth 11', SA upwind and downwind-85 sq.ft.
=====================
Must be a blast picking off the known universe of sailboats under 20' one by one by one-way to go Rohan!

Chris Ostlind

06-27-2006, 08:48 PM

I still own my original RD350 Yamaha production racer and, on the right surface and geography, I can blow-off lot's of 1000+cc machines at will. In full, canyon racer mode, I can last about two hours at the controls and then the bigger machines cruise on by, headed for parts further down the road.

Notice I said, right surface and geography. This sort of selected conditions mismatch has been going on for years, Doug. Foilers did not create a new scenario here.

So, your point is, exactly what, in this ridiculous comparison?

usa2

06-27-2006, 09:13 PM

Why dont we compare multis and monohulls again? The argument made about the same amount of sense.

RHough

06-27-2006, 11:17 PM

Why dont we compare multis and monohulls again? The argument made about the same amount of sense.

Foiler moths are multi-hulls ... :)

They have two bodies in the water that support their weight, just as a catamaran has two bodies in the water supporting it's weight. :)

Moths are mono-hulls only when the foil support structure (the hull) is in the water. :)

There is no argument here. Moths are neat little boats ... no doubt. They are faster than some boats and slower than others. They make a great sideshow and attract attention to small boat racing. All good things. :)

frosh

06-28-2006, 12:57 AM

Hi Doug, when my kids were about 8 and 10 years old I used to race against them in my backyard pool. To make it a fair contest, they had to swim 4 laps to my 6 laps. When they were around 16 and 18 years old and I was 8 years older, we made the rules the opposite of what they were. The competition was always close, and probably a lot more fun than a foiler Moth beating a 420.
What in the ---- do you think you are revealing that is more important than this? It also sounds like Rohan should get a couple of things into perspective as well.
Don't they sail A-Cats in Victoria? I know they do, and he should be going there for some competition. Even so, we don't need to hear about it.
It has become such a yawn!
We already know the Moth is quick on foils; lets get onto the next thing now.

Doug Lord

06-28-2006, 06:08 AM

Some people are not aware even yet of the racing Rohan has done against the A class cat-beating a fleet around the course repeatedly in conditions that suit them both(See Foiler1 GP) as well as other catamarans up to 20'.
In addition, the organization that hands out small boat ratings in Australia rates the Moth faster than the 49er.
All these small victories add up to one hell of a monohull sailboat. Claiming that the foiler Moth is not a monohull is ludicrous because the boat has defined the bi-foil MONOHULL foil system. In it's own class the foiler Moth races against non foil boats as a matter of course.
To not recognise the design implications of the bi-foil system for monohulls of all sizes
is probably quite short sighted. This system represents a startling increase in sailing efficiency from speeds of 14 knots in a 5knot wind to the current class max-the subject of this thread. Pretty cool stuff !
And , 2, now monohulls ARE faster than catamarans - at least in boats under 20'....

Stephen Ditmore

06-28-2006, 09:18 AM

Thanks, Doug.

For anyone interested, the Summer 2006 U.S. Modern Moth "MOTHBALLS!" newsletter has now been posted at http://www.mothboat.com/USMMCA/newsletters.htm

Chris Ostlind

06-28-2006, 09:52 AM

From the Dougster: " And , 2, now monohulls ARE faster than catamarans - at least in boats under 20'...."

Again, This means what, specifically, in the grand scheme of things that float?

Let's see... foiler fever, canting keels, tricked out rigs, extravagant claims, sliding seats, more claims, work done by other guys, etc, etc. In the automotive world there's a name for the vehicle on which the designer has piled every possible option so that the marketing claims can exceed the bounds of good sense... Its called the Cadillac Escalade.

I can't wait for the next technical lollypop to show-up so that our esteemed Mr. Lord has to decide for which specific muse he will dance. That will be an interesting dilemma.

RHough

06-28-2006, 10:04 AM

... Claiming that the foiler Moth is not a monohull is ludicrous because the boat has defined the bi-foil MONOHULL foil system.

Mono = One

Bi = Two

One hull = Monohull

Two hulls = Bi-hull

Calling the Moth a Mono-foiler is like calling a Schwinn a Uni-Cycle.

The Moth class allows boats to race that are supported by more than one foil, how is that different than allowing boats supported by more than one hull?

sigurd

06-28-2006, 11:29 AM

I always found it interesting to know which boats were faster in what condition.

Windsurfing is a good way to be introduced to sailing. Optis too, but they get a bit dull when you have driven them down a number of times. The same with big sailboards in much wind. I believe I started learning both at approx the same time, age 5. For pure racing however, I don't think most people care how fast the boat type is, as long as the others have exactly the same boat. I have been told by a parent that some are trying to replace the opti with something called a zoom. A bit larger SA so it won't be outgrown as fast I am told.

Unicycles have no stability except in heave. I seem to remember a sailboard with a single T-foil.

boogie

06-28-2006, 06:50 PM

hi guys,

i suggest we put an end to the "my boat is faster than your boat" bantering.

how about a represenative of each class that has any claims here sends me a GPS track and i'll analyse the track for max speed, averaged speed over distances, VMG over distance and so on.

www.GPSactionreplay.com has an excellent free tool for doing so and i have analysed many yacht, windsurfing and kitesurfing tracks before.
for best results try to record the tracklog in 2sec intervals. this setting seems to be the best compromise between track resolution, accuracy and track log capacity. it give you about 5.5 hours of track recording on a Garmin GEKO201 or Foretrex101/201. tracks recorded on the "auto" setting lose a lot of datapoints, as do tracks that are saved on the unit.

lets even set a range of wind speeds that all can sail in. like 10 to 25kn as a guide line.

send your tracks [preferably, but not necessary in .gpx format] to:
kitespeed [at] gmail [dot] com

the bulsh!t stops, when the data drops. :P

cheers
boogie

Doug Lord

06-28-2006, 07:05 PM

Boogie,do you have any experience with the Velocitec-that's what most of the Moth guys use?

boogie

06-28-2006, 07:19 PM

Boogie,do you have any experience with the Velocitec-that's what most of the Moth guys use?

no i don't. as far as i know you can't download the track from the unit and do a detailed analysis of the data later on. handheld GPS units are not 100% accurate, but by analysing the data, spikes and glitches in the recording are quite easy to spot on a track log.

boogie

Doug Lord

06-28-2006, 09:46 PM

A news flash: John Ilett just shipped the foils mentioned in the article in MOTHBALLS that are going on an Aussie 18. Now thats going to be interesting. Our own baronvonwhatever has posted a pix of an 18 on surface piercing foils with no accompaning comment(that I can remember) on the boatdesign forum. John's Fastacraft set will have MUCH LESS drag than those. The question is : we know that as a leadbelly gets bigger it's likely to have a higher top speed but is that true of a foiler? Will the Ayedeen really be a Moth²? Some otherwise knowledgeable people have said that only a Moth monofoiler can foil(or foil upwind) but we know that a 470(surface piercing -three foils), FD(surface piercing-three foils), RS 600( bi-foiler) and the 26(?) foot Monitor in the 50's have already foiled. The Monitor way back then with three ladder foils could tack while foilborne and sailed well upwind. We know that David Luggs 114 sailed well upwind on foils. So I guess the real question is will an 18 sail better with foils?
My take on it: as pointed out numerous times one of the really cool things about the Moth is early takeoff; for instance KA claim their Bladerider with the big main will take off in a 5 knot wind and do 14 knots--waaay before a windsurfer will plane. So I'm thinking that the biggest gains on the 18 may be made in the relatively low windspeeds.
I guess we'll find out before too long....
+++++++++++++++++++++
Boogie, don't know whether you've seen it or not but on Rohan Veals website there are some comments by the designer of the Velocitec regarding the speed Rohan just posted in the Moth class contest; there is also a thread on SA about the thing...

boogie

06-29-2006, 04:15 AM

KA claim their Bladerider with the big main will take off in a 5 knot wind and do 14 knots--waaay before a windsurfer will plane. So I'm thinking that the biggest gains on the 18 may be made in the relatively low windspeeds.
I guess we'll find out before too long....

Boogie, don't know whether you've seen it or not but on Rohan Veals website there are some comments by the designer of the Velocitec regarding the speed Rohan just posted in the Moth class contest; there is also a thread on SA about the thing...

Doug, you are not quite up to date on windsurfer technology, are you?

Formula Windsurfing is a short board class without a centreboard and they mainly do windward leeward racing. they have a wind minimum of 7 knots for racing. a good FW sailor can get his kit [1m wide board/70cm fin/12m sail] up and plaining in 5-6kn with a good pumping technique and then maintain planing at around 13-15kn board speed across the wind. not much upwind-downwind in those marginal conditions, but you are fully powered from 8-10kn of wind speed for very good upwind and downwind VMG's.

which brings me to another point. anecdotal evidence along the lines of "moth's are faster than windsurfers because Rohan beat a local sailor when he was sailing out on the bay..."
how about lining up world champions against world champions? my guess is the local guy would have been lapped, by the WC of his class...
i have added a picture of a recorded GPS track. the rider is a ex WC in the class the recording is from an actual race in melbourne/elwood sailing club at the oceanic champs a couple of years back in very choppy conditions with a SWer of 20-25kn.

i am well aware of the Velocitek GPS unit. but last time i looked you couldn't download the data from the unit. it's a nice tool, but not what i'm after.
i'm quite closely involved with the guys that run www.GPS-speedsurfing.com
GPS-speedsurfing has around 600 registered members now in their ranking.
there is a system of regional and global timekeepers in place that validates the submitted tracks. without the tracklog there is just no way to control claims of speeds done by the riders.
tracks have been cross checked over and over again with timed video equipment and the speeds are within tenths of a knot of the "official" times as long as the distance is large enough. that is the reason why the main ranking is not the display read out or 1 second peak, but the average of the 5 fastest 10second runs.

if they could add download functionality to the Velocitek i'll surely consider it.
would be great if it could be done wireless [bluetooth] to avoid corrosion.
there is just soooo much more information available if you can analyse the track after sailing. i'll see if i can put some samples together and post a few screenshots.

cheers
boogie

Doug Lord

06-29-2006, 06:39 AM

Boogie, I don't know as much about windsurfers as you appear to but I do know but the Bladerider probably wouldn't require pumping to achieve takeoff in 5 knts. I know that Rohan has lined up against Formula boards and been faster in some conditions but I don't know the details. From what I understand in many cases particulary the 49'er - to set the Austalian rating- he lined up against the best sailors in Australia.
Similar story in his A class racing.
It seems too bad that the Velocitec doesn't have the tracking capability you mention- I think I'll write and ask them about that. Would be really usefull. Based on what the designer of the unit has said on SA the thing is significantly more accurate as a speedometer than most other GPS units but I'm not sure why-maybe the 12 channels?
------------------------------
Windsurfing --Boogie, I live near Tinho Dornellas' windsurfing school and am there both days every weekend and have been for over 5 years. I have a Davis windmeter that I keep with me at all times. A 'normal" weekend day with wind will draw up to 30 or so boards; I've seen many, many different boards including a homebuilt version of Rush Randle's(air chair) foilboard. I have never, in all that time, had the pleasure of seeing ANY windsurfer planing in 5 knots of wind no matter what they did. I'll ask Tinho about it this weekend........

Doug Lord

06-29-2006, 08:19 PM

One of the comments you made was in regard to a reference I made to certain "otherwise knowledgeable people" regarding whether or not the Moth is the only monofoiler that can foil. I was referring to Phil Stevensons comments on the Moth forum as well as to some internet posters who don't use their names(apparently) that seem to agree with Phils statements that only the Moth can foil and then that only a Moth can foil upwind. While I have great respect for Phil and what he has done he is just plain wrong in making those statements: David Lugg foiled a two person I14 upwind in 1999; the 1950's era Monitor(though not a bi foiler) foiled upwind and even tacked on foils. I'm 100% satisfied that if the I14 had not banned full flying
hydrofoils that class would have made similar startling progress as has the Moth class.
And others besides myself believe in the potential of larger monofoilers( keelboats on foils) including the Out 95 group and Sean Langman.
---------
For Rohans comments on the A class and 49er go here:
http://www.foiler1.com/foiler_moth.html
and here earlier in the series:
www.rohanveal.com

usa2

06-29-2006, 10:46 PM

Okay, so if the thing we are promoting here is top speed in boats under 20', the A-class is still faster than the Moth. So are F-18's. (does the A-Class fit into the F-18 rule?). So its still an irrelevant figure. Unless someone would like to point out why the consumers should care. An F18 cat can be had for $12,000 USD. And how much is a Moth?

boogie

06-29-2006, 11:24 PM

boogie

06-29-2006, 11:29 PM

Windsurfing --Boogie, I live near Tinho Dornellas' windsurfing school and am there both days every weekend and have been for over 5 years. I have a Davis windmeter that I keep with me at all times. A 'normal" weekend day with wind will draw up to 30 or so boards; I've seen many, many different boards including a homebuilt version of Rush Randle's(air chair) foilboard. I have never, in all that time, had the pleasure of seeing ANY windsurfer planing in 5 knots of wind no matter what they did. I'll ask Tinho about it this weekend........

say hi to Tinho from me [Boogie @ C3] and make sure you ask the right question. :D
something like: "what is the lowest wind speed that you have ever seen any of the top pro guys at the midwinters plane in across the wind?"

cheers
boogie

Chris Ostlind

06-30-2006, 12:13 AM

Lemme see... who was it, some page or so back, who was complaining about the thread being hijacked? Hmmm ???

Now, the topic has shifted to planing windsurfers and data recognition via downloadable GPS systems.

My, oh my, how the worm has turned.

A very funny and ultimately ironic conclusion to another tale by the esteemed one.

Thanks for the laughs, Doug.

foilr

06-30-2006, 12:27 AM

It'll be interesting to see how the foiler Moths fare against windsurfers, skiffs, F18s etc at the Brass Monkey regatta this year.

Only a month to go... http://www.sydneyflyingsquadron.com.au/bm/default.htm

foilr

06-30-2006, 02:30 AM

From the UK Moth web site http://www.int-moth.org.uk:

26-6-06 vavavague...if you have been following our speed ladder (and the yachts and yachting clone) you will be dismayed to learn that int-moth.org.uk no longer believes what it sees on the little gps devices. we have been getting increasingly sceptical of rogue readings this season, with the speed increases out of propotion to the development in the class, and now we have proof. sam pascoe took out two gps units a garmin and a velocitec. here are the max speed readings for three sessions:

Garmin Velocitek
20.7 21.8
23.5 23.2
22.8 20.4

you can see the difference between them varies from 0.3 knots (1.3%) to 2.4 knots (11.8%). either we just laugh it off as a bit of fun. or if we want to take the quest for top speed seriously we will have to change the system eg by taking an average of three max speeds within one hour from a downloaded trace.

These page is also interesting...
http://moth.iointegration.com/VavavoomSP.htm and http://moth.iointegration.com/VavavoomFreaks.htm

usa2

06-30-2006, 11:40 AM

I have heard and seen F18's achieve a good 25-30 knots, and i would assume an A-class is faster, being lighter and more powered up. Apparently, an F-16 cat is also capable of 25 knots, and being launched off of the beach. Which brings us to the question- If a catamaran is easier to sail, same price (or cheaper) than a foiler, and the consumer is looking for speed, why bother with the foiler?

gggGuest

06-30-2006, 05:56 PM

If a catamaran is easier to sail, same price (or cheaper) than a foiler, and the consumer is looking for speed, why bother with the foiler?

A question that is likely only to be asked by someone who has never seen one. Whilst I think there is almost zero chance of a Moth foilers or a moth foiler derived boat becoming a mass market sales item, the two are not remotely comparible.

Doug Lord

06-30-2006, 05:57 PM

2, on the C class cat thread on SA I believe it is Steve Clark that mentions the top speed of those boats at around 24 knots.
This is from Rohans site regarding the recent "Sauna Sail" regatta posted on Monday 12 June 2006:
"Each race of our division started 5 minutes behind the F18's, but by the end of my three laps,I had nearly caught and passed most of them. The highlight was passing them one at a time(to windward and leeward) on a reach with their kites up! Only a few of the top guys on a Tornado and Hobie Tigers stayed ahead but they weren't anymore than 2-3 minutes ahead.[ REMEMBER VEAL STARTED 5 MINUTES BEHIND!!!]
Headline: " 11' Monohull beats whole fleet of 18 and 20' high tech catamarans around a course numerous times!" Hmmm, sounds pretty damn impressive.....I know it's hard for some people to accept the reality of the situation but this boat represents nothing less than a revolution in sailing.
---------
The Moth is 12-13 grand in US dollars including shipping(according to KA); about the same for the Prowler that Rohan sails built by Fastacaft.
But ,if you wanted to you could build and equip your own for around $7,000 including pro foils and rig......

Stephen Ditmore

06-30-2006, 06:06 PM

That may be (responding to gggGuest), but it doesn't answer the question, and usa2's question isn't ridiculous. The Moth goes on top of the car... that's a plus, especially for a city dweller. I have an older catamaran that I haven't used in a while. I could have put time into fixing it up, but I decided I wanted to build a Moth instead. Why? Dunno. It just calls to me (and is something of a prototype for a larger boat I may wish to design in the future). I want my own mini custom raceboat, of my own design. And I want it to appeal to me aesthetically, as well as sail fast.

But mine won't have foils, so I really haven't answered the question, either.

Chris Ostlind

06-30-2006, 06:41 PM

gggGuest wrote: "Whilst I think there is almost zero chance of a Moth foilers or a moth foiler derived boat becoming a mass market sales item, the two (fast beach cats compared to Moth derived anything from author of this post) are not remotely comparible." (sic)

And in that nicely penned comment, we truly do see the folly of all these supposedly valuable incidents in which a World Champ on his foiling Moth sails past a nicely driven beach cat.

The whole, "my unit is bigger than yours" thing, is ridiculous in value and ultimately foolish to compare for all the reasons so stated earlier on in this thread. Speed is but one small item in the determination of the value of a particular boat. Since the vast majority of sailors in this world do not race, (nor will they ever) the component issue of which boat is the fastest becomes even more remote in its use in the real world.

Soon enough, there'll be another flavor of the month for the foamers to mount a drooling session. I believe that you see the fixings on the way to the kitchen right now with the boys about to glue-on a foil package to an Aussie 18. Since there's such a huge market for 18's on this planet, (no matter the configuration) it seems that the messiah foiler proponent paradigm is, in fact, moving in the wrong direction.

If the concept works at all, then the only way to get it to the masses in any kind of People’s hype, is to make the paradigm go in the other direction, towards the simplest possible boat that can meet the criteria of a rental product on a hotel beach. I don't see that happening in this lifetime. Not enough sex in that particular stew.

Anyone can make a fast anything with enough money and engineering being thrown at it. "World's Fastest Refrigerator sets new land speed record at Bonneville" reads the headline after three, mechanical engineering degreed brothers inherit USD$10 million from dead Grandfather's estate. They established several new time trial records, wiping out previous marks set just the year before by a team from the Ferrari factory with Michael Schumacher at the wheel.

If it's about irrelevant and dumb comparisons, this thread takes the cake and we all know who the head baker is. Don't we, Chef Lord?

Doug Lord

06-30-2006, 06:47 PM

Stephen, I don't know why but I had the feeling that you were leaning toward foils. Just out of curiosity why won't you use them?
----------------
2, it's not just high top end speed that is attractive in a foiler: the Moth is also capable of astonishing speeds in relatively LOW wind speed. KA claims their new Bladerider will do 14 in a 5 knot breeze with the big main; John Ilett did something like 19 knots in a 10-12 knot breeze over a year ago. Rohan can take off in 7 or 8 knots of wind(or maybe even lower now) and exceed double the windspeed. Earlier take off is one of the performance areas being aggressively refined in foiler Moth development.

CT 249

06-30-2006, 09:27 PM

Doug, you say that the Lugg/Smith 14 proves a heavy boat can fly upwind. The quote you put on the Moth forum says specifically that it didn't go upwind EFFECTIVELY on foils...."The first compromise was to reduce the foil size SO THAT THE HULL DID NOT LEAVE THE WATER AT UPWIND SPEEDS. Early experiments with larger foils had the bot foilborne upwind with excellent speed but greatly reduced pointing ability."

I'm not up to speed with Andy Loukes' foiler but his initial posts said it only flew under spinnaker.

When the Lugg boat had to be modified so it DIDN'T foil upwind to be remotely competitive (26th out of 36 at the nats or something) surely your claim that the 14 "sailed well upwind in foils" remains unproven.

Doug, I looked up the Go for the Gold regatta when Rohan raced the 49ers. It was a very impressive performance; very competitive with the 49ers. However, it was also held in foiling conditions and while the foiler Moth is an incredible machine in those conditions, I think you'll find the races Rohan used to research the yardstick were set at BRYC in foiling conditions. When the Moth can't foil, it's about 65% of the speed of the 49er or something. I think you'll find the way the yardstick was set doesn't reflect that.

Similar points arise from Sauna Sail.Yes the foiler went like a bat out of hell when it foiled (although after looking at the race times it's hard to see how the Moth was going faster than the top F18s) but on the flipside, none of the foilers finished any of the first 3 races. When the foilers only finish in the conditions they like, it makes it very hard to assess how fast they are all-round and it undermines any claim that they are currently the best solution for all-round sailing speed.

What's really frustrating is that Rohan has been racing against some of the world's best (ie top 5/10 inthe world) in F18s, 49ers and Int 14s and doing extremely well against them when foiling, yet because the foilers won't finish in the light stuff we don't know who they really compare, from 0-50 knots or whatever.

The information on your other link has some contradictions that surely mean it should be treated with caution. It claims...

"* Boat speed is always faster than any wind speed from 7 to 25 knots."

" Average upwind speed 11-14 knots (peaks up to 17 knots)
Average downwind speed 12-22 knots (peaks up to 24 knots)"

Well, I can't quite work out how a boat can be ALWAYS faster than the wind speed from 7 to 25 knots, yet go upwind at a peak speed of 17 knots and downwind at a peak of 24 knots.

That means if it's 24 knots wind you're peaking at 17 knots according tot he info......I'm not that strong on maths but last time I looked, 17 was less than 24. That means the boat is SLOWER than the windspeed. Ergo we can't trust all the claims you want us to trust because they are not logical.

What happens in an 18 knot gust if the Moth goes faster than the windspeed under 25 knots, but has a peak speed of 17 knots upwind?

What is left behind? Do they shimmer as they disappear, or is there an explosion? Doesn't it contradict various physical laws? Does part of the boat keep going faster than the wind and the rest stay behind at 17 knots? Doesn't that mean the Moth is now over 11' long and therefore no longer a Moth under the class rules? Is that why many amateur-built foils break? Is this the foiler's version of the event horizon or the sound barrier? Wha' happen?

Maybe we should all stay well away from foiler Moths. We don't want to be around the shrapnel when the laws of maths and physics go berko, and 24 knots becomes less than 17 knots. If I'd written that in maths tests at school I'd have failed. Come to think of it, I did.....

Or is it perhaps marketing and enthusiasm running away (understandably) and therefore, Doug, we shouldn't just sit back and accept it all without query?
Given the direct contradiction in these claims how can other claims of foiler performance be ALWAYS taken unquestionably on face value as you seem to want us to do?

These are astonishing performers, beautifully worked out. It would be great to see them going in all conditions, no excuses.

I bet Foiler (if he ius who he seems to be) will be fully worked for the BM this year, last year when new on the boat he was really, really quick at times. It was interesting, when struggling you'd close up on him and then zip! onto foils and vanishing, until (in those very nasty conditions) he'd drop again. Hopefully this year we'll get some more moderate conditions and we can enjoy the site of the Moth screaming along more.

Foiler, if the BM course is the same as last year boards won't be able to race, or race effectively. At the recent SIRS regattas the permission to cross the ferry lane hasn't been available. If it was like last year the FW boards would struggle I think; they basically wouldn't have got around R3 and R4 (when a longboard would have flown!). As far as I can see from sailng against FW boards and talking to Rohan,. the FW gear is still quicker downwind in planing conditions but when it's off the plane it's slower than a foiling Moth off the foils. Have you sailed against FW boards?

USA2 an A Class is 105kg too light to fit into the F18 class, apart from numerous other problems.

I'm not saying foilers are not amazing because they are; merely looking for demonstrable facts for some of the claims.

RHough

06-30-2006, 11:20 PM

I'm not saying foilers are not amazing because they are; merely looking for demonstrable facts for some of the claims.

As are we all. :)

foilr

07-01-2006, 01:34 AM

CT, I wont be at the BM this year. I sold the boat a month or so ago. Would've been nice though.

I haven't raced a FW, only brief bursts against the RSXs at SIRS. Nothing conclusive to draw from that.

frosh

07-01-2006, 04:07 AM

My heart warmed to see that one of Mr Lords very few remaining disciples, Stephen D has now owned up to the fact that he prefers his new Moth to be a lowrider.
Bravo! for not being bullied.
Even more satisfying was the "Foil king's" reaction to this heart wrenching news.

"Stephen, I don't know why but I had the feeling that you were leaning toward foils. Just out of curiosity why won't you use them?"

Stephen prefers the foil less style for going fast and aesthetic reasons.
Maybe it is also the crap you have to go through every time you launch and retrieve the boat, and the potential damage to body and boat on foils.

I also find it incomprehensible that Dougie doesn't sail some sort of foiler himself. After all with his connections,---. Rohan might be able to get one of his sponsors to put up the money for an enlarged version of his own boat.
By Dougie's own admission, he is wa-a-ay to heavy for a regulation Moth.
In return for the free boat Dougie could actually write a daily diary in this forum about real experiences that he had on his "Giant Moth", and whether he passed any other sailboats that were stupid enough to ask him for a drag race.

At least he he would gain a little credibility this way, and wouldnt be living a surrogate existence as he must do now, which is really a sad thing. :D

Doug Lord

07-01-2006, 08:12 AM

CT, as to David Luggs boat: according to Lugg and to Alan Smith who worked with him on the boat the boat sailed well upwind but as you pointed out didn't point exceptionally well. The Moth's didn't point spectacularly on foils as they do now until Rohan developed the technique of heeling to weather upwind. Had the 14 class legalized full flying foils I'm sure you would have seen similar dramatic improvements in that class as has happened in the Moth class.Lugg's solution to the foiling design problem was to optimize his foils for offwind work whch meant he used a very small foil that was highly loaded. Others would most certainly have migrated to an upwind foiling solution as happened in the Moth class. You conveniently ignore the evidence of the very large Monitor monofoiler that even tacked on foils. You also ignore the fact that Sean Langman and the Out 95 guys and others believe that much larger foilers are possible including ballasted keelboats on foils. You ignore or are not familiar with the articles writen in Seahorse by Ian Ward(Moth foiler pioneer) suggesting a series of foiler classes-he obviously believes that larger two and three person foilers are possible.
I don't think you can take anyone's claims 100% but in the case of the Moth there is growing evidence that what Rohan says is 99.9% true and accurate( on the Aussie A cat site before it crashed there were numerous comments by A class guys about being passed by a Moth-there is at least one such comment still there last I looked); what benefit would it be to him to exagerate or make up figures? If you have a question about what Rohan published on Foiler 1 GP why don't you ask him directly instead of publically disparaging his veracity or math ability?
---------------
Frosh, you should quit pretending that you know anything about me or what I sail-you simply don't have a clue! Stephen Ditmore is a great guy and you probably shouldn't speak for him-he does very well speaking for himself! You mentioned " the crap you have to go thru to rig a foiler"-what crap? On my 16 the foils retract and the boat is trailered like any normal dinghy. It takes NO MORE time to rig than any other 16 footer. Some Moths require that the foils be inserted from the bottom while you wade out far enough to do that-that sounds like a bitch to me -I'll give you that. But the new Bladerider from KA has retractable foils-as does the M4. So since you've never sailed a foiler and have no clue what is going on and what is possible in foiler design I'd quit pontificating about stuff you obviousy know nothing about.
These are early days in bi-foil monofoiler design; the Moth has set the performance standard- but other boats are being developed that will be much easier to sail and rig-it's just a matter of time before the Peoples Foiler emerges that puts it all together. In the meantime, the extraordinary exploits and achievements of the foiler Moth will continue to dazzle sailors (and non sailors) everywhere and baffle it's detractors -detractors who increasingly will be left in the wake of a true revolution in sailing.

Chris Ostlind

07-01-2006, 09:47 AM

Careful, guys. Doug is flashing his gang signs again.

Next thing you know, there'll be a drive-by foiling complete with non-spec manufactured seconds being thrown on your lawns as a sign of disrespect.

Doug; You are one bad Vato.

La Vida Foilista Loca

CT 249

07-01-2006, 09:54 AM

Oh c'mon Doug, I'm not disparaging Rohan's ability at maths, it's pretty damn obvious I'm just joking. For crying out loud, try googling "sense of humour".

Of course he knows the maths, but don't you see that in claiming a boat always exceeds windspeeds under 25 knots but sails at a max upwind of 17 knots is sort of funny? We've all made similar slips and I'm sure as hell you for example have pointed it out when people like me have made similar errors.

As I quite clearly pointed out I was just saying that it seems that there may have been an understandable burst of enthusiasm that may have lead to some minute errors which mean nothing but are just a bit funny.

I'll give you a tip....next time someone asks whether foilers explode at 17 knots, whether there is a cloud of shrapnel around, whether they just disappear, it is because they are making a J.O.K.E. A bad one, a very lame one, but still a joke. Ask your mum about them.

As far as why I don't ask Rohan himself if I doubt his veracity - 1, I have never said that he is lying therefore his veracity is not in issue. 2- you attack the veracity and motives and knowledge of many people publically without directing the questions to them privately first. 3- Foiler exponents and detractors have both been putting their case on the net for several years and the exponents don't take your route. For example YOU have been publically denigrating Phil!

I am NOT accusing foiler sailors of lying. I AM asking for facts, as reasonable people ask of other reasonable people. I AM cautious when there are obvious impossibilities in their statements.

I am NOT ignoring Monitor but as far as I am aware it did NOT go upwind in normal conditions on foils and at racing speeds.

I am NOT ignoring Wardy but I can't see why you should publically denigrate Phil. Both are very smart and both have lots of experience. I can't see why you have to disparage one just because he doesn't agree with your views (oh hang on the answer is in that sentence isn't it).

I did NOT say in my post that the foiler didn't pass As. I did NOT compare the performance of an A to a foiler Moth in that post. I HAVE seen them both on the same course and when the foiler isn't foiling the A is normally much quicker. When the foiler is foiling it goes extremely well as I have agreed many, many times.

I have said foilers have "very impressive performance; very competitive with the 49ers.", and said that the foiler does very well against world-class Int 14s, 49ers and cats. Don't try to pretend I haven't been at pains to be fair.

I do NOT ignore what Andy and Sean are thinking, I have merely not seen their idea work. Until their ideas are proven, please allow people the right to publicise the views of those with good credentials who believe it isn't practical. This is merely an attempt to provide a balanced viewpoint.

I don't respond to your posts to try to convince you. There's no hope of that. I am merely trying to throw up some information to balance your propoganda. It's not worth the effort so I won't reply to any posts again.

RHough

07-01-2006, 10:28 AM

You mentioned " the crap you have to go thru to rig a foiler"-what crap? On my 16 the foils retract and the boat is trailered like any normal dinghy. It takes NO MORE time to rig than any other 16 footer. ... So since you've never sailed a foiler and have no clue what is going on and what is possible in foiler design I'd quit pontificating about stuff you obviousy know nothing about.
These are early days in bi-foil monofoiler design; the Moth has set the performance standard- but other boats are being developed that will be much easier to sail and rig-it's just a matter of time before the Peoples Foiler emerges that puts it all together. In the meantime, the extraordinary exploits and achievements of the foiler Moth will continue to dazzle sailors (and non sailors) everywhere and baffle it's detractors -detractors who increasingly will be left in the wake of a true revolution in sailing.

Doug, I've misplaced the photos of your 16 up on foils ... could you re-post them?

If you won't or can't, how credible are you as a source about foiler design? Yet you pontificate about foilers ... ?

Do you think that if you make the same statements over and over again they will become true? Since foiling has been around for decades, it would seem that the "true revolution in sailing" exists only in some alternate reality, it sure isn't taking the sailing world by storm from where I sit ... oh wait, there is another revolution in sailing that has been around for decades ... didn't somebody come up with tilting keels and two rudders? That one isn't setting the world afire either.

RHough

07-01-2006, 10:33 AM

I don't respond to your posts to try to convince you. There's no hope of that. I am merely trying to throw up some information to balance your propoganda. It's not worth the effort so I won't reply to any posts again.

Getting people to stop posting counterpoint is SOP. When people stop posting differing opinions and stop asking for facts to be supported, you have "Won" the debate. Are you conceding? Has another voice of reason been silenced?

RHough

07-01-2006, 11:36 AM

"Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 10:25 pm

It's been a month since the last post. Where are the pictures showing the boat up on it's foils?"

Link:
aeroSKIFF - One Design Canting Keel Racing Machine (http://rcsailtalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1500&sid=4067d719c1289476115f1b63b8e980b3)

Chris Ostlind

07-01-2006, 12:20 PM

Back to the future with Doug Lord, where it seems that the more these techy things change, the more they stay the same.

With that little bit of sadness out of the way...

I am hereby announcing the next big thing in 10 foot skiffs, the anti-gravity propulsion device for sailors has arrived!

The neGravSKIFF.

Faster than any foiling Moth. Certainly faster than all of the Lordspeak hype that can be slung from a keyboard and able to be built and delivered at your local Sam's Club for an astoundingly low, Made in China, price you simply won't believe.

Not a boat under 20' that will touch the damn thing. Rough conditions don't matter to the neGravSKIFF, because we don't need no stinkin' conditions... we provide our own!

The future is near. Just don't ask me when that might be

Doug Lord

07-01-2006, 02:21 PM

Thanks , CT. You need a reality check when you say I denigrated Phil; after saying I had immense respect for him I merely said he was wrong in saying only Moths could foil or foil upwind and proved it with facts not speculation. Further ,on the Moth forum and this forum I have pointed to something Phil wrote as one of the most impressive foiler plugs ever written by anybody.
---------------
Boogie, Tinho says hey; he backed you up-to a point-saying he could pump the right board up in 5 knots with a top speed on a plane of 12 knots(Bladerider foiler claims 14 in 5-close enough for jazz).... He also said you made among the best windsurfer foils in the world-cool! I stand more or less corrected-and I'm glad I do. I've never seen anybody do the deed on a board but I'm glad it's possible; it's great for sailing even if you do have to use the auxiliary
to power up!
-----------------------
Mr. Hough you asked about the aeroskiff 16 prototype : while the boat has foiled and has been a great test bed and learning experience for me it no longer exists. Actually, I'm proud to say that I just delivered the boat to Tinho Dornellas' Calema Windsurfing/ Sailing School at Kelly Park in Merritt Island ,Fl. minus the hydrofoils and rig. I included a dolly , Dotan kickup rudder and Fastacraft daggerboard to replace the foil sets and Tinho will supply a rig so the boat can take on a new life helping kids learn about sailing. The aeroskiff rig, much of the hardware(that Tinho doesn't need) and the foils will be used on my new boat described elsewhere on this forum. Delivering that boat was one of the best"ups" I've ever had! So thanks for asking RHOUGH!

Chris Ostlind

07-01-2006, 04:02 PM

"... I just delivered the boat to Calema Windsurfing/ Sailing School ... minus the hydrofoils and rig."

You mean to tell me that after all that heavy duty smack talk at the front end of this year, that you haven't done one lick of work on the so-called, People's Foiler, since then?

Yep, that sure does qualify as an important project for the sailing world allrighteeo!

My 9 yr. old nephew has finished a personal canoe in my shop while you were doing zip.

Behold the power of hot air.

Doug Lord

07-01-2006, 06:01 PM

Just stumbled across this on Dinghy Anarchy:
From "Suppenhelle" Berlin, Germany post #15

"Hi, just to support Nige: I'm 40 something 80+ kgs and experiencing loads of fun on a hydrofoiled Moth. Nothing to compare to that. Sailing currently a Mistress 3 I can confirm that the boat is capable of carrying almost 90kgs of sailor. without breaking anything.
Cheers, Burkh"

--------
The thread this post is from:
Need a new Single Hander - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37180&pid=789672&st=0&

Extraordinary foiler Moth pix:
index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=28677
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=28677

Chris Ostlind

07-01-2006, 06:11 PM

It had to be from Teutonic lore.

To paraphrase Roy Scheider's Sheriff in the movie Jaws, "I think you're gonna need a bigger set of foils, and a bigger sail and a bigger... well you're gonna need them to be bigger and let's just leave it at that, Doug"

If that photo that was posted by Hough earlier today is actually you, Mr. Lord, please exercise due caution when setting sail on any foiler that can suspend your person. We need you here.

RHough

07-01-2006, 08:09 PM

Mr. Hough you asked about the aeroskiff 16 prototype : while the boat has foiled and has been a great test bed and learning experience for me it no longer exists.

Is there evidence that the boat foiled?

These are all the photos that I could find: AeroSkiff(tm) (http://www.monofoiler.com/seatrialphotos.htm)

Not saying I doubt that it did, only that I have not seen any proof ...

It just seems odd that there are photos and video of your Trimaran Foiler working quite well and the RC boats with spinnakers, but nothing about a single track foiler ... what's up with that?

BTW: I you have not checked out Doug's RC boats follow this link (http://www.microsail.com/america1photos.html). The man is very clever, the spinnaker system is beyond cool!

frosh

07-01-2006, 08:33 PM

Doug, I have just come across a report from a source that you hold in utmost respect, and throws a new light on some of the disadvantages of foiler Moths that you have conveniently neglected to inform us about. :mad:
I quote from a very recent posting from the IC forum.

Phil Stevenson

Australia
57 Posts
Posted - 30 June 2006 : 14:16:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim, The foil moths sail all sorts of different angles depending on crew weight and wind pressure. Small guys with big winds go very deep (Gybe through 50deg maybe) but big guys like me in 10kts just go back and forwards cross wind and get nowhere (gybe through 180). I can not get downwind much better than a I do without foils until it is over 15kts.

Hows your geometry? Better than your rithmetic, I hope!

Do You understand the profound implication of this??

Yes, you might have to remove your damn foils and just chuck em, to to save your self.

You've heard of the legend of the Flying Dutchman; no! not that one by Van Essen, that is one fine dinghy, the other one. I understand that to this day it roams the Bermuda triangle with a hot meal on the galley stove and a half smoked cigar in the ashtray, still smouldering. To this day the crew has never been found. :eek:

Doug Lord

07-01-2006, 08:44 PM

Why thank you ,Mr. Hough. As to the aeroSKIFF 16 I have no "evidence" other than my word-nor do I require any. The boat used a manual altitude control system that was difficult to use but worked after a few miscues. I would have preferred pictures and videos but the boat didn't really meet my criteria for a production prototype so it wasn't worth investing in a paid photog ; however, the boat did ok foiling in about 9-10 knots of wind- after initially semifoiling because of an AOA problem with the mainfoil. I was hoping the it would be good enough to be a production prototype-it wasn't and will now teach kids about sailing-a good thing for any boat. I learned a lot from the 16 and I'm glad it will retire inspiring others.(see below)
---------------
As to the F3-the worlds first production RC multifoiler- there are many pictures and some video on the site( www.microsail.com ) . But there were three other RC foilers that worked but were not brought to production(yet): 1) the microMOTH-a bitch to sail compared to the F3 but very fast with spectacular crashes(unlike the F3 which has never capsized or pitchpoled when set up properly), 2) the aeroSKIFF canting keel foiler-as far -as I know it is the first keel boat of any type to foil but was very hard to control and much too expensive to become a product and finally,3) the x3 multifoiler with retractable foils-similar to the F3 except designed to fit in the F48 class necessitating a way to ditch the foils in lite air. Great system, lite and works very well....
--------------------
More on the 16: it is way too much for me to handle singlehanded even with the mods I intended to make. So after much discussion I'm building a new boat-a sit inside-foiler designed to foil offwind only- initially.Also designed to be able to be powered up substantially when I learn how to handle the ballast system.

Doug Lord

07-01-2006, 08:52 PM

For poor Mr. Frosh:

Just stumbled across this on Dinghy Anarchy:
From "Suppenhelle" Berlin, Germany post #15

"Hi, just to support Nige: I'm 40 something 80+ kgs and experiencing loads of fun on a hydrofoiled Moth. Nothing to compare to that. Sailing currently a Mistress 3 I can confirm that the boat is capable of carrying almost 90kgs of sailor. without breaking anything.
Cheers, Burkh"

--------
The thread this post is from:
Need a new Single Hander - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37180&pid=789672&st=0&

Extraordinary foiler Moth pix:
index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=28677
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=28677
=============
Also note that Sam Pascoe who also is "heavy" set the Moth class speed record in the UK just prior to Rohans recent achievement.

sigurd

07-02-2006, 03:42 PM

"http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums...=post&id=28677"

The front foil looks like it is off the centerline and is bent? Whats this setup? Any more pics that show how it works?

Doug Lord

07-02-2006, 04:22 PM

Sigurd, I think what you may be seeing is the altitude control system wand-which, in the picture, is curved. On Prowlers it is mounted on the stb side at the bow.
-----------
In case you don't know: the wand "senses" the water level by dragging in it and is preset for a specific altitude. It is connected to the flap on the main foil.
The rudder foil also has a flap which is adjusted by use of a twist grip on the hiking stik.
This particular boat belongs to Rohan Veal the current(?) class World Champion. The next Worlds is coming up shortly...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Read this if you are interested in more detail on foiler Moth development including the dispelling of some popular misconceptions. This article appeared in Seahorse( I think) and is now on the Aussie Moth site. Well worth the read:
A History of Change - International Moths to Dinghy Foilers
Address:http://www.moth.asn.au/reports/foilers_may_2004.html Changed:9:11 PM on Tuesday, June 1, 2004

frosh

07-03-2006, 01:57 AM

Hi Doug, and I quote:
Post 157 7/1/2006
Just stumbled across this on Dinghy Anarchy:
From "Suppenhelle" Berlin, Germany post #15

"Hi, just to support Nige: I'm 40 something 80+ kgs and experiencing loads of fun on a hydrofoiled Moth. Nothing to compare to that. Sailing currently a Mistress 3 I can confirm that the boat is capable of carrying almost 90kgs of sailor. without breaking anything.
Cheers, Burkh"

Post 162 7/1/2006
Just stumbled across this on Dinghy Anarchy:
From "Suppenhelle" Berlin, Germany post #15

"Hi, just to support Nige: I'm 40 something 80+ kgs and experiencing loads of fun on a hydrofoiled Moth. Nothing to compare to that. Sailing currently a Mistress 3 I can confirm that the boat is capable of carrying almost 90kgs of sailor. without breaking anything.
Cheers, Burkh"

What am I deaf or something? I saw it the first time! (for what it is worth!)

If repeating hoary old "facts you should know, according to Doug Lord" or repeatedly posting the same URL is going to convince anybody that your "facts" are valid then you have a rude shock in store, when one day the truth hits you!

Doug Lord

07-03-2006, 06:25 AM

Lunch gets away: see this thread and post #85 byJim C---
The 20 Knot Club - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37247&pid=790288&st=0&
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It's my first time; please be kind:
Template
Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/FirstTimeSP.htm Changed:3:53 AM on Friday, June 30, 2006

foilr

07-03-2006, 10:05 PM

From http://www.luka-damic.com/ on 03/July/2006

Also it looks almost certain that I will pull my boat of the market very shortly with very little interest in the class and second hand boats in Australia.

I haven’t received a single phone call after 2 months, so I’ll just finish the last few cosmetic things that I was going to do and sail it. It doesn’t bother me as I still think it’s a very competitive boat, but its all quite surprising after Moths recieved so much publicity.

Doug Lord

07-03-2006, 11:02 PM

Scott(Scott Babbage= foilr), whats your point and why the anonymity?
So Luka says there's not much interest in the boat-maybe his price is too high?
Because, somethings not right with this picture: if theres not much interest in the foiler Moth why in the world would Andrew McDougall of KA SAILS,Auatralia be investing 10's of thousands of dollars in the Bladerider tooling , say to me that there has been an "overwhelming response", and be setting up for a 16 boat per month production capability? Why would John Ilett have ramped up his Prowler production capacity?
-------------------------
International Foiler Moth -Fastacraft Prowler
www.fastacraft.com
--------------
International Foiler Moth - Bladerider
http://www.kasail.com/sailing/bladerider.html

frosh

07-03-2006, 11:47 PM

Hi Luka, having looked at your website and the photos and description of your foiler Moth, it seems a very classy boat, and you would expect, very desirable.
The lack of interest in being able to find a buyer is the precise point of somewhere close to 100 postings on this thread.
It is like offering 100 amateur aicraft enthusiasts a choice of owning for free either a new Lear jet or an immaculate Tiger Moth biplane. My theory is that the majority will go for the low tech biplane, even though it costs much less.
If they had to pay for their gift then it would be overwhelming. Probably no- one would go for a Lear jet.
Sorry, I digress from boats but I wanted to use an example that would not inflame biases we already have.
Looking at a hard to believe example in dinghys, have a look at the PDracer.
http://www.pdracer.com/
My understanding from Boatmik ( a regular poster on this forum), is that there is a very significant interest and many boats currently being built and registered.
What can we say about the growth in active International Moths? Negative growth from all reports, except from one notable poster.
The emphasis on high and higher performance, and corresponding cost increases, and loss of user friendliness, is the main cause of the huge decline in Australian dinghy sailing.

So-- This is why anyone who blows his trumpet repeatedly at how quick a foiler Moth can go, is being counter-productive to the overall sailing scene, as the absolute speed is such a small aspect of the whole sport. He is also part of the mechanism of destroying dinghy sailing as foiler sailing is like a side show attraction, and contrary to his ongoing bleatings will NOT become the mainstream of sailing, competitive or recreational! :mad:

Chris Ostlind

07-04-2006, 12:26 AM

Specious, rhetorical quote from the Dougster: "if there's not much interest in the foiler Moth, why in the world would Andrew McDougall of KA SAILS,Australia be investing 10's of thousands of dollars in the Bladerider tooling?"

First of all, is that US or AUS dollars? (no disrespect intended towards my OZ brothers)

Second of all, I'll answer your question, Doug, with a rhetorical one of my own. "If it was such a dumbass and risky idea, why would Ford invest millions of USD$ in tooling for the Pinto?"

Surely, you'd have to agree that Ford had enormously greater amounts of braintrust capacity and overall expertise in the automotive industry than does a small company such as KA Sails in the boating world? And yet, there they went, investing millions of dollars in fabrication technology in a car that was essentially a huge mistake and ended-up costing the company millions more in near terminal resolution of liability claims.

Companies invest sums like this in new technology in what amounts to a crap shoot of supposedly educated guessing. Nobody has a crystal ball on these things or there'd be millionaires on every corner. Why, even you, Doug, would have the cash on hand to do something more than spout-off incessantly about foilers. And yet, you don't and in the grand scheme of things, there's a very good reason for that.

KA has made a business choice and they have to cross their fingers and hope it turns out OK for them. If the marketplace thinks this is a dumbass idea, then no matter what KA Sails has done before will not be enough to fix the problem. The rate of failure for decisions like these is extremely high and there is no guarantee that their take is the correct one.

Like I said way back in January, Doug... cough-up your own cash if you think this is such a cookin' deal. You'll make yourself a mini-player of sorts, for a short time anyway. You can use the big spender resources to launch that next, oh-so-cool, tech solution you are sure will light the world on fire.

If you can't see clear to dump your own money into an ultra risky enterprise like a technical go-fast item for the boating world, why should anyone else believe one word of your hype?

Since you are not leading and you are too proud to follow, I suggest you get out of the way.

foilr

07-04-2006, 12:38 AM

whats your point and why the anonymity?
The post by Luka on his web site backs up the theory from CT and others who have suggested that the publicity generated by the foiler does not necessarily relate to popularity.

I don't post anonymously. I post with the foilr username and include my photo as the avatar. Anyone with half a brain can work out exactly who I am.

So Luka says there's not much interest in the boat-maybe his price is too high?
Maybe the price is high. But it is one of very few hydrofoil Moths available to purchase. At a replacement value of $18000AUD, $12500AUD does not seem greedy.

luka9333

07-04-2006, 02:06 AM

So Doug, I take it you have seen my boat to be able to make a judgement that it is overpriced?

Perhaps you could suggest what I should ask for it, seeing you really know your stuff....

frosh

07-04-2006, 03:43 AM

Well Doug, I wasn't expecting that it would happen within 24 hours, but now that some of your "beloved" Moth foiler sailors have seemed to turn on you can I remind you of the line in my penultimate posting which predicts:
"then you have a rude shock in store, when one day the truth hits you!"
You are on your own now "mate" :)

Doug Lord

07-04-2006, 10:00 AM

CT, I'm just curious: where are all the new boats going? If my information is correct and there are three manufacturers of foiler Moths going wide open, just what is going on?
Could it possibly be that the "facts" you presented in your inimitable way reflect 80 or so years of non foiler Moth production and don't yet reflect the rapidly increasing foiler population?
Let's see: the foiler Moth has only been around since 1999 and only in more or less limited production for around three of those years with Full Force entering the market just last year or the year before with John tooling up and refining rapidly the whole time.
And the most interesting question is: why would a well known company like KA invest the loads of cash in the tooling for it's Moth/Bladerider if there wasn't a "phenomenal" demand?
Gee, I wonder if it's possible that the numbers you refer to just don't reflect the reality of the situation; ya think?
-------------------
International Foiler Moth-Prowler
www.fastacraft.com
----

International Foiler Moth - Bladerider
Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/bladerider.html Changed:11:41 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006
-----
Full Force UK- Mistress(I think)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don't think the measure of the foiler Moth can be accurately reflected by some poor guys attempt to sell a 3 year old race boat in Australia: for gods sake, the revolution just started 7 years ago and the technology is improving by leaps and bounds every year. I think anybody in their right mind would think long and hard about spending $12,500AUD on a used boat with any knowledge at all of development in the foiler Moth!
----
It's probably not accurate to use the term "popular" to describe the foiler Moth(as I have before)-it simply hasn't been around long enough to have it's numbers match up against other Moths that have been being built for 70 or 80 years but the question above is valid: where are all the new boats going?
It would seem that if KA is not blowing hot air then they are about to add significant numbers of foiler Moths(16 per month) to the overall Moth population. It's hard to see Luka's point or CT's point or Babbage's point when there is so much investment and building going on in a class where they say there is "little interest" in an "unpopular" boat.
And there is the other major point: the foiler Moth has proven something technically feasible that even some of the best foiler designers in the world said was impossible in 1999: that a monohull could be sailed on just two foils;that a monohull 11' long could beat almost every other dinghy and multihull under 20' around a course-repeatedly; that an 11' monohull could approach 30knots etc,etc.
These facts at some point will lead to a Peoples Foiler-a boat that will be nearly equivalent in performance to the Moth but much easier to sail and probably significantly less expensive as well. It's not a question of "if" but only of "when" with numerous groups around the world working toward this goal NOW.

Chris Ostlind

07-04-2006, 10:17 AM

Why does this always have to be motivated by purchasing another foiling boat, Doug? (My edit. Note:If it seems that this letter is out of phase somehow... This original question, along with the next two short paragraphs, were posted in response to the first, now since disappeared, posting by Mr. Lord)

What if Luka is going to use the money to buy his dear old Grandmother one of those electric wheelchair things so she can get around on her garden paths a bit more efficiently? There's a proper tech solution that you seem to disregard as valid.

What if Luka just wants out, or wants to detune his profile so it makes more sense... or any of a dozen possible alternate answers other than getting another foiler?

Man, I've never seen a person so wrapped in his own, perceived sense of glory. What is it in your life that allows you to be so manic about this aspect of sailing? If the "big time" cash thing invested by KA is such a mental hurdle for you that you have to keep reciting the rhetorical mantra like this, what does the daily cash expenditure going on with the AC boats mean to you? KA's "possible" investment is similar to the laundry costs for any of the AC teams and yet you continue to flash it up there like it's singularly important in some way.

If you want to be perfectly practical about the whole matter, and that is a demonstrable trait that seems to be in short supply with all the foam in the air, KA has probably recouped their investment through increased web traffic flow and additional orders for existing products, without a single foiling product going out the door.

It can be shrewd to jump into a flavor of the month product from a marketing perspective if it directs enough capital into your accounts from sales of other products. If the foiler thing actually sells a few boats during its run, then so much the better. Still, it doesn't mean a thing about committment to a niche product and can easily be abandoned if the supposed excitement runs the course and falls out of favor. The technique is done all the time in marketing circles.

If you want an indicator of the depth of product sincerity at KA, then take a long look at how much of their additional cash on hand they put in to profile marketing of the product outside of the web presence. Do they take out expensive ad space in publications, pop for full sponsorship of a regatta specifically for these types of boats, have mountains of promo schwag to hand out at related events, jump into a heavily supported "public benefit" campaign such as getting more youngsters out to the beach in boats (of any kind) And most telling... how long does the campaign last at high levels of cash output?

These are the types of signals that would indicate real support for the program and not just a careful observation of trendy motivators in the sport.

Certainly we can all name a list of cheeseburger boats that got perhaps fifty. or fewer, examples out the door before the hungry mob of flashy public opinion passed them by for another, fresher object of desire?

How much money do you think has been invested in the Catri tri tooling compared to the puny outlay for a KA branded foiler? The jump to real money must have you gurgling.
http://www.aegeanmarine.com/

Are you seeing Catri's blast through the Farrier fleets with such numbers that current F-boat owners are dumping their pride and joy for the next big thing? It just ain't happenin', Doug, and you are kidding yourself if you think it will.

I'd like to encourage you to rethink the principals of practical, grass-roots marketing concepts, so a better foundation of understanding can be achieved before your next foray before the critical eye of the educated public.

foilr

07-04-2006, 09:44 PM

I don't think the measure of the foiler Moth can be accurately reflected by some poor guys attempt to sell a 3 year old race boat in Australia
You're right. But it does help to form an opinion.

I think anybody in their right mind would think long and hard about spending $12,500AUD on a used boat with any knowledge at all of development in the foiler Moth!
Correct again. Anybody in their right mind would also have to think long and hard about spending $18000 AUD on a new boat with any knowledge at all of development in the foiler Moth.

Spending less on a first-time foiler is a good option for a beginner, helping to limit the financial losses in the upgrade process while the equipment is not the limiting factor in their race performance.

where are all the new boats going
Which new boats are you referring to exactly?
There were 2 prowler 4s at the last Australian Nationals and I believe another launched in Melbourne recently and one for John in Perth. In the last 12 months that makes 6 new Moths (all foilers) launched in Australia. Please advise if I've missed any.

It's hard to see Luka's point or CT's point or Babbage's point when there is so much investment and building going on in a class where they say there is "little interest" in an "unpopular" boat
No. The point is quite simple. Publicity is not directly related to popularity. The current situation appears to support that theory.

The future may be different. I certainly hope so. However we cannot judge a hypothetical future as present fact. Can we?

Doug Lord

07-04-2006, 10:29 PM

"Publicity is not directly related to popularity".
Horsemanure! Geez, how do you build interest in a class leading to it's "popularity"?? Keep it quiet?!
But you know what: I could give a rat's ass about the popularity of the Moth class. What I have consistently focused on are the achievements of some in the Moth class-the technical development which has no match in the dinghy sailing world. If you Mothies can't capitilize on the incredible interest in the class so be it. But the pioneers in the class have shown the world what is possible and I absolutely believe that those working to solve some of the problems with the Moth class foiler will be succesfull and develop a Peoples Foiler that will be far easier to sail than a Moth and less expensive. Many people are working on it; a few are likely to succeed.
Not only that but the technical development pioneered in the Moth foiler has led to AT LEAST two full size programs working to adapt the bi-foil monofoiler system to large ballasted keel boats.
The technical achievements of a small group of Moth sailors has started a revolution in sailboat design that will lead to some of the most exciting development ever seen in speed and performance under sail.Popular? maybe not yet-extraordinary?-you betcha!
---------------------
"Yes I've sailed one"
And,ah, I'm one of the only people in the world ( that I know of) to have sailed a 16' bi-foil monofoiler- not a Moth but great fun nonetheless.And further proof that the Peoples Foiler is not only possible- it is likely.....

usa2

07-04-2006, 10:39 PM

"If you Mothies can't capitilize on the incredible interest in the class so be it. "

First of all, its not interest in the class, its interest in the foilers. The foilers are a minority in the Moth class.

Second of all, "interest" is all it is. Just because someone is interested in something doesnt neccesarily mean they are going to start buying the boats. Especially something as expensive and specialized as a foiler moth. There are millions around the world who are "interested" in offshore sailboat racing, and follow those who do it avidly, yet they often have never been in a sailboat out of sight of land.

"And,ah, I'm one of the only people in the world ( that I know of) to have sailed a 16' bi-foil monofoiler- not a Moth but great fun nonethe less."

You may have sailed it, but it didnt foil, from what we have heard. I am pretty sure foilr has actually gotten the boat up on his foils.

foilr

07-04-2006, 10:59 PM

how do you build interest in a class
The Moths, through their prominent sailors and manufacturers, are doing a great job of generating interest.

how do you build interest in a class leading to it's "popularity"??
Congratulations, you've found the question that CT, Chris, Frosh, usa etc have been asking.

The problem is complex. Hype has not brought people in.

KA bringing a stable, available source of boats to market will help significantly.

We still have significant hurdles in terms of cost. In terms of complexity. In terms of difficulty. Ignorance of those hurdles doesn't make them magically disappear.

I could give a rat's ass about the popularity of the Moth class
The Moth class would prefer if you personally didn't give a rat's ass about our popularity. We would prefer if you stopped hyping our boat out of proportion. We would prefer if you used your foiling experience as a basis for your opinions, not ours.

and I absolutely believe that those working to solve some of the problems with the Moth class foiler will be succesfull and develop a Peoples Foiler that will be far easier to sail than a Moth and less expensive.
And I don't agree with you. I would like to see it happen. I don't think it will. What do you think the consensus here is?

Popular? maybe not yet-extraordinary?-you betcha!
Thankyou. I agree there. I've stated at length how incredibly the boats are.

I'm one of the only people in the world ( that I know of) to have sailed a 16' bi-foil monofoiler
Congratulations.

My apologies if I've missed it in other threads, but why haven't you bought a Moth? I would be happy to organise a test sail on one if you're ever in Sydney. I have put my $ on the line and bought 1. 3 actually. I would like to know the reasons why you wouldn't purchase one for yourself.

Chris Ostlind

07-04-2006, 11:47 PM

Quote from the Wizened One in the gaudy conical hat,

"Publicity is not directly related to popularity".
Horsemanure! Geez, how do you build interest in a class leading to it's "popularity"?? Keep it quiet?!

How about this for a novel, soundly based approach, Doug? You build the class through substantive advancements that make sense for sailing's sake and not the sake of more rabid fluff from fringe proponents. The boat is developed to be simpler and not more complex. There is a movement supported by connected, investment driven concerns to ensure that the gmmickry is significantly reduced so everyday sailors can see the potential value and not the wall of technology that is so, off-putting. The list goes on, but you see the point, I'm sure.

You can hype a product into the mainstream and then it has to deliver on its hyperbole fluffed promise. Once un-met the promise fades, the product goes home with abundant numbers still on the shelves and the whole thing is viewed as a flop.

If something is really an appropriate move in a particular industry, the product will reveal itself through grass roots word of mouth. Uniquely enough, this approach turns out to be the soundest methodology of all, if you want staying power in the marketplace.

Human driven demand is always hundreds of times more potent than hype driven interest.

The most recent classic example of this is your own attempt to foist upon the sailing world a goof ball hodge-podge of technical apparatus called the aeroSKIFF. When you couldn't interest anyone in tossing down the cash, the appendage cluttered monster wound-up in the garage and it sat there waiting for your promise to crank-out a finished product that would set the world on fire. Now we see it stripped to the bones of ignominy sitting around a windsurf school where it may have a new life as what... a training wheel equipped, used-to-be, Wunderboot?

Mind you, this floating thing was hyped into oblivion with all the hot air one could muster out of Cocoa Beach, Florida... and still it couldn't be lifted from the weight of its own expectational hyperbole. A more pitiful promotional campaign, I have never seen. Classic Coke made more of dent in the conciousness of the public than did the aeroSKIFF and it tasted like... well, it tasted bad and you can guess the rest.

The reason there are so many people with great intellect, jumping in your face is because you fail to see exactly how desperate the hype has become. Since you have virtually nothing to do with the development process at this point, due to bailing on your own wonderful vision, why don't you please let the hype rest for awhile and engage yourself in something that can earn you some money so you can actually build more than a wannabe foiler?

It's the end of the trail for this discussion, Doug. I'm sure we all wait anxiously for your next lucid string of comments. Bow-out gracefully and we'll all think the better of you. GEEZ! I'll even vote to raise your repuation a few notches if you just simply let this whole thing go.

frosh

07-05-2006, 12:34 AM

"Yes I've sailed one"
And,ah, I'm one of the only people in the world ( that I know of) to have sailed a 16' bi-foil monofoiler- not a Moth but great fun nonetheless.And further proof that the Peoples Foiler is not only possible- it is likely....." Doug, this is absolute B-S. We all know it and so do you, but you are in far too deep now to back out of the mire.
You know how I know? No, I didn't need to be there! If you had even a flight of 5 yards you would have gone back the next day with a professional photographer and try and repeat your big deal. Your vanity would have tried to move heaven and earth to present some tangible proof to the sceptics.

It didn't happen, I am absolutely positive. Why don't you just stop sprouting now. You have no support at all. Even the moth guys say:

Doug's Quote
I could give a rat's ass about the popularity of the Moth class

The Moth class would prefer if you personally didn't give a rat's ass about our popularity. We would prefer if you stopped hyping our boat out of proportion. We would prefer if you used your foiling experience as a basis for your opinions, not ours.

Seeing that all your experiences are sort of surrogate ones, you really have nothing left to talk about.! :P

foilr

07-05-2006, 01:15 AM

Can we keep the conversation objective and impersonal?

I'm sure you'd agree that Doug's contributions to the discussion are always thought provoking, we don't really want to see him leave.

I don't want my contributions to be taken personally Doug. I'm not having a go at you here. I am only responding to your claims when I can, if you could be so kind as to respond in turn to my points, then we can all move the discussion forward.

Some input on how we (as a class) can convert our awesome speeds and fantastic publicity into more boats on the water would be greatly appreciated.

How can we capitalise the strength of the concept and at the same time overcome the drawbacks?

Where are all the new boats going? Who is filling the current and future building capacity? How many people, and who exactly has indicated that they will buy a Moth because of their foiling exploits?

RHough

07-05-2006, 02:48 AM

"Publicity is not directly related to popularity".
Horsemanure!
Serial Killers and Terrorists get lots of publicity and neither are popular pastimes.

If you Mothies can't capitilize on the incredible interest in the class so be it.

Here is the real underlying motive for the pages of hype ... profit ... patents and profit

... will be succesfull and develop a Peoples Foiler that will be far easier to sail than a Moth and less expensive. Many people are working on it; a few are likely to succeed.
Lord knows some have spent 5 years trying and have managed to get a 1 Metre boat to raise 3/4" in the water but not "foil" ... (Doug Lord's 1M aeroSkiff in 2003)

Not only that but the technical development pioneered in the Moth foiler has led to AT LEAST two full size programs working to adapt the bi-foil monofoiler system to large ballasted keel boats.
I wish them luck. If one of the foremost authorities (using post count as a yardstick) cannot get a one metre model to foil, what chance do these newbies have? Lets not even go into the conditions that a full scale ocean racing boat has to operate in and how foilers are not a logical choice for those conditions.

... revolution in sailboat design ...
Oh please, hydrofoils are not new, neither are canting keels and moving ballast. Hydrofoils were supposed to revolutionize ships ... they didn't. One of the markets for high performance watercraft for testosterone overdosed young men is the PWC market ... see any foilers?

"Yes I've sailed one"
And,ah, I'm one of the only people in the world ( that I know of) to have sailed a 16' bi-foil monofoiler- not a Moth but great fun nonetheless.And further proof that the Peoples Foiler is not only possible- it is likely.....
A 16' two-foil one foiler? That has never foiled ... at least not long enough for anyone to get a photo ... kinda like the Loch Ness Monster ... people believing in it doesn't make it exist ... lots of publicity though ... :)

casavecchia

07-05-2006, 12:05 PM

Foilr, well said!
I am with you on all points.
All the Moths we have in Italy, 8 at the moment, were bought
because of the hydrofoils as the class before was virtually unknown.
Marco.

Chris Ostlind

07-05-2006, 01:29 PM

I'll be glad to reduce the comments from my side of the coin if Doug will quit resorting to the use of terms such as, "Horsemanure!"... and "Rat's Ass". This is posturing that demonstrates a lack of skill with the language and a guy on the verge of erupting.

I think we can all recognize when a hyped position is unsupported by legitimate, logical thinking and running purely on fluff.

My apologies to the rest of the gang if anyone was distracted by my writings.

casavecchia

07-05-2006, 02:13 PM

Accepted.
Marco.

frosh

07-05-2006, 02:56 PM

As I said a few pages ago, Doug's case of Cognitive Dissonance is reaching a critical stage!
Doug, I hope you are OK. As well put by Foilr, we don't want you to go.
BUT-- You need to get a grounding. Just because Rohan's website has an almost day to day report of some minor sailing experience doesn't make it a major news story!
Also if Langman believes he can design and sail a 50 foot Moth clone offshore doesn't make it so! We are all very well (and you also) entitled to be very sceptical. He has been very successful in what he has already done but like many of us he is allowed to "dream".
Until he can overcome almost insurmountable issues of basic physics, he is a very long way off! ;)

Paul B

07-05-2006, 05:21 PM

Also if Langman believes he can design and sail a 50 foot Moth clone offshore doesn't make it so!

Langman's new ride for Hobart this year is quite different, but not in the way Doug seems to think.

http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/news.asp?key=2533

Chris Ostlind

07-05-2006, 08:34 PM

For all you rabid foilistas out there, this bit just showed-up on the Software section of these pages and it looks like a fun place to dream just a bit.

Apparently, a number of these boats were exported to Australia in the mid '70's for small-time ferry work. There's more here under Aquavion Hydrofoils a bit down the page http://www.foils.org/buyferry.htm

The photo is one of the sister ships to the boat shown above in the Software section.

Apologies for not hitting the proper sailboat content, but it occurred to me that a bunch of you guys in OZ might have actually been on one of thes boats sometime in their operational lives.

Chris Ostlind

07-05-2006, 09:16 PM

I remember back about a month ago when I posted a osund argument about foiler susceptibility to stuff in the water. The predictable result was that all the foilistas dumped a flame barrage on me in defese of the beloved little gadgets.

Well, this just in from the North Atlantic;
http://www.orange-sailing-team.com/en/?page=story&id=505&univers=gclass

Bruno Peyron's Orange II ultr mega cat has hit a floating object in the approaches to the Lizard on his record run across thr Atalntic from New York and one of the rudders is very seriously damaged.

Geez, you'd think the vast expanse of the Atlantic would be reasonably safe for a high performance vessel, much less the original argument about sailing in tighter waters in which huge metropoitan areas dump their incessant stream of garbage and other detritus.

Ball's in your court, boys.

foilr

07-05-2006, 09:27 PM

Yes, hitting solid objects would cause damage to the foils. Hitting garbage and/or heavy weed would cause a slowdown or crash which might need a capsize to clear.

But having said that I didn't have any such problem sailing on Sydney Harbour or Lake Macquarie in my Moth.

I can only remember picking up a cap on the centreboard of a 29er in 2001 and carrying it around a few laps... losing a bunch of places in the process.

So I don't think it's a huge problem really.

luka9333

07-05-2006, 09:40 PM

I sail on Botany Bay (Sydney) where there is often a tone of weed... In a foiler it's actually less of a problem than on a conventional boat. Why?

Because the weed can't get jammed between the top of your centerboard and the hull. The hull is out of the water so the weed is washed away with the speed of the foils going through water.

Chris Ostlind

07-05-2006, 10:03 PM

I don't doubt what you are saying, guys. I just look back at the times when I had sizeable lengths of kelp wrapped around the leading edge of my Nacra 6.0 daggerboard and the only way to get it off was to totally pull the boards up through the slot, ending my so-called speed run to the next mark.

I just get the visual that with a horizontal foil that is rather wide, the weeds would not only wrap on the strut, but on the lifting section as well. Perhaps it's just different weeds to which you refer.

Kelp is a big deal in SoCal waters with many sailors having fits with wrapped keels during races. If it's still attached to the sea bed, it is so strong it can actually bring your boat to a dead stop. Makes for a nice scene with the rig sheeted-in.

Still, I bet Bruno was a little more than perplexed to lose that big a chunk of his rudder at 30 kts. average speed.

Rick Loheed

07-06-2006, 10:15 AM

Not all foil proponents for a particular purpose are 'rabid', but there are many specific applications that work, and work well with foils despite the danger of impacts with objects. Most of todays 'wave piercing' catamarans have foils and other effectors simply for motion control in case you weren't aware of it.
I actually prefer SES vessels for high speed ferries partially because they don't have much in the water and have one of the highest transport efficiencies, but it's a bit hard to do with a sailboat- although we have pictures of a Norwegian built Cirrus 120P with a spinnaker- a long story in itself!

Any boat hitting a deadhead or other hard object in the water at high speed is bound to suffer damage, particularly to props and rudders and other such appendages. I applaud the efforts of the Moth sailors and the I14 sailors, as well as Doug's continued work despite the harsh criticisms, which I think have gone into the realm of 'rabid' if anything has. Experimental work in general has a tendency to be not very forgiving, we must learn from results of the experiments or they wouldn't be called 'experimental'- and many may fail entirely if we don't do adequate homework first. During my years at the 'Rocket Labs' (TSPC, or now the Maurice J. Zucrow Laboratories at Purdue) there were many, many movies of failed rocket motor firings over the years- in fact, most of them failed in the '40's, '50's and '60's due to attempts to achieve high pressure and develop cooling methods that worked.

Centerboards, keels and a rudders are also 'hydrofoils', and as you've pointed out already are susceptible to debris as well, the odds might be slightly in their favor since they are mostly vertical other than when heeled, but only slightly with currents swaying weeds and kelp to and fro.

After 5 years of operating our hybrid hydrofoil testcraft with both 'regular' foils and lifting bodies, I will admit we hit objects twice. We are in the Chesapeake- once it was a crab pot line in the channel where they are not supposed to be (which only slowed us from 32 Knots down to around 22 before breaking the line) and once in grass we accidentally strayed into, which thankfully only arrested the boat and caused it to 'land' without damage. Something hard would not have been so kind, but luckily it never happened. Fortunately I built the foils really strong.

The vessel shown here weighs about 6 tons, is 44.5 Ft long, and has a fully computerized flight control system and a fully submerged foil system in an airplane layout like the 'monofoilers', albeit with more struts. It is roughly a 1/4 scale model of a 56M design design by Rune Odegard of Norway. Both the forward foil and the aft foil are flapped. The concept is designed to fly only a certain 'lift fraction' of the vessel, allowing the centerhull to contribute bouyancy and planing lift. This allows the craft to be scaled up slightly more than a 'conventional' all flying foiler. the math is the required foil area goes up as the square while displacement goes up as a cubic function- so there is a limit to how big you can build a fully flying hydrofoil. The 'can' on the bow is a radar height sensor.

This vessel is superior to any other 44.5 Ft boat I know of (on the Chesapeake at least) at one thing in particular- seakeeping. It is also very efficient, though this picture is with the lifting bodies, which have higher drag than conventional foils but add more lifting capacity and vertical damping like a SWATH vessel. The 1/3rd octave plot enclosed here is data acquired from this vessel in scale seas of 2-3M, or .5m-.75M (1.6-2.5 Ft) model scale. with normal foils. While this may not seem to impressive to you, in 4-5 Ft seas on a delivery voyage I could have had a cup of coffee without fear- any 45 Ft deadrise vessel would have been pitching and rolling tremendously. We thought we were in a limit sea state, athough we never even took spray on the windscreen!

But motion control systems is what we do....Sorry to inject a powerboat into the sailing forum, it's to illustrate the point that each technology has it's applications, and I think foils can live in harmony along side other sailing vessels even with the inherent weaknesses of the technology such as debris and occaisional breakage.

Stephen Ditmore

07-06-2006, 10:40 AM

Stephen, I don't know why but I had the feeling that you were leaning toward foils. Just out of curiosity why won't you use them?

Might try them at a later date. The current Fastacraft kit is about $2400, I think. I don't know if the Bladerider people offer the foils separately.

My first priority is to get a feel for whether the hull shape is good. My mast and daggerboard will be farther aft than my competitors, and the board a little deeper than most, so I want to see how that works out, too. Overall, I want to produce a design that's both fast and easy to sail. One guy in Sag Harbor came into the class, geared up a narrow waterline boat like a hot rod, took one bruising sail in the thing, and has given up. His boat's now for sale. I want my boat to be something one of my daughters could jump into and not regret it at the end of the day.

Also, I may be interested in trying to sail my boat longer distances than would be typical of a Moth race. I'm not a distance unicyclist, and I have no immediate plans to try to be a distance foiler. I wish you luck with the Aeroskiff, though, and would love to see picks of it foiling.

If I were to try foiling, I think I'd want to try a TriFoiler or Windrider Rave first. It's not like I loathe multihulls... in fact I like some quite a bit. (I think some catamarans are aesthetically challenged, though).

For anyone interested, here's the new Bradfield/Irens 60' foiler: http://foxxaero.homestead.com/indsail_019.html

Rick:

I'm glad you posted a photo and discussion of your experience -- I like your boat a lot. How do the drag numbers compare to a similar sized / weight monohull at what would be semi-displacement speeds (Fr=0.4 to Fr= 0.9) for the latter?

Chris Ostlind

07-06-2006, 05:30 PM

Hi Rick,

I've said this before, several times in fact, on various iterations of this over-arching discussion on foiling stuff; "I think the concept of a foil equipped boat is interesting and as a sailing craft they look to be decent fun. I do not think they are destined to be a replacement for the venerable, and apparently timeless, Hobie 16 by any stretch."

What my beef is now and will continue to be, as long as the hyperbole is spewing forth from the source, is this: Mr. Lord has taken the rather liberal opportunity to promote his potential commercial venture of a, so-called People's Foiler, under the guise of the now defunct aeroSKIFF project. As a development project, I had not one wit of an issue with his efforts, although the boat had about two tons of hype and one pound of delivery. The issue came about when it turned from development test bed to commercial product.

It would seem to me that if you are going to pound your message into the face of a bunch of educated, and experienced sailors who have everything from serious design backgrounds to extensive marketing experience, you better have your ducks in a row, or drop back and punt, so that you don't waste everyone's time.

Unfortunately, that has not been done and the proof is ultimately in the fact that the boat in question languished untouched and has been pushed off onto another party without any of the foily bits included in the package. The aeroSKIFF is functionally dead in the water.

Since there is no visual proof through competent stills or video of the performance claims of said prototype, it's been left to our belief system, as has been established by Doug's demeanor and overall hype-driven tendencies to gloss-off about stuff not in existence.

Don't bring commercial trade presentations to the Boatdesign pages unless it's formally asked about. When you do, have the decency to make your pitch in a minimal fashion and then direct the discussion off-list where folks can freely ask what they wish. Certainly, that shouldn't be too hard to adjust to.

Don't voluntarily put your stuff in front of a bunch of really sharp and well-spoken guys who give you their opinion and then find yourself espousing anger when they fail to see the "magic" of your vision. That's especially true when the audience doesn't agree with your interpretation.

When you get negative criticisms, don't fire-off retorts that are filled with vitriol and hostility unless you expect to be met with same in return.

Lastly... don't relentlessly pound away at the same old tired horse of buzz hype without recognizing that you are eventually going to get thumped in return; if only because we don't want to hear it anymore.

The public perspective is a tough piece of ground. Folks with thin skin have no business stepping into the harsh and unrelenting light of the public eye unless they're prepared to deal with the vast gamut of what can potentially come their way.

I don't know how involved you are in your work, Rick, with the commissioning client and their incessant desire to have substantive proofs delivered for their cold cash, but the public works in that same way and then some. If Mr. Lord thinks that he's not going to get grilled by industry publications, working professionals, concerned fathers of prospective buyers, tire kickers, in a fashion mor potent than he ever got on these pages, he's already way over his head in the product presentation game.

Perhaps you hold a different opinion.

I've taken my concept boats to various trade shows around the country over the years and I've heard all sorts of interesting comments. There are three types of people, basically, and it goes something like this at one of these boat shows: One group thinks you've just about ruined the sport with your "thing" and they'll tell you so in pretty damn harsh ways. Another group thinks you are like a God of some sort for creating the next coolest cheeseburger afloat. The last group has serious observations, pointed questions, unrelenting stares and a curiosity to see how you handle the pressure. Toss out the first two groups from the extreme ends of the bell curve and learn how to field the tough questions with a smile on your face and a sincerity that will allow you to learn from their comments and questions. That process doesn't seem to have happened in this case.

My suggestion to Doug, (and this has been made time and time again) is to go off to the shop, work his butt off to produce what he thinks is a viable, innovative product, test said product to failure and discover (and fix) what is wrong until he's sick of looking at the damn thing. Then... and only then, start showing it around and allowing it to produce a little grass roots viability before he steps, once again, into the big world. This is what was done by Ilett and all the others who tread this ground before.

I don't think this will happen, because I think Doug likes the WoW factor of gloss dumping on the Boatdesign site more than the work involved to deliver a solid product. Since Doug joined this site in Aug 2003 to share boat stuff, he's posted 1,422 times on various subjects. I joined the list one year later and now have posted 178 times. And I think I spend too much time here away from my prototype development shop. Speaks for itself, doesn't it?

I know that you understand the work thing of getting a product to full fruition. You'd be chased out of your shop in a minute if you started tossing out the gloss without the substance to go with it.

Enough said on the topic and like CT, I'm going to watch from a distance until there's more substantive stuff on the table. I wish you guys well and hope that an earth shattering nautical discovery emerges from your inspired communication.

Doug Lord

07-06-2006, 08:54 PM

Foilr, you asked at one point why I didn't have a Moth. The answer is very simple: I weigh 245 pounds and would be well outside of the perfomance weight range of the boat.Otherwise, I would have had one years ago. So I designed my aeroSKIFF 16 a year before the first bifoil Moth flew and built it a year after. It was not a particular good foiler design and had some serious problems. Chief among those was that it was far too athletic for me particularly recently due to some minor physical problems I've had. But it was fun and a great testbed and learning experience.When the boat foiled it was with a manual altitude control system like Luggs I14 but connected to the mainfoil flap instead of to the rudder flap. The rudder flap was also adjustable.. The mods I had contemplated earlier this year have been incorporated in the aeroSKIFF 14 a project I am collaborating on with Eric Sponberg ; the 16 has been retired to a life of teaching kids about sailing minus the high horsepower rig and foils which are being incorporated into my new "Trapwing 14" foiler described elsewhere on this forum(p2 of "Sailboats") and inspired by my desire to see if I can't translate some foiling excitement into a "sit inside" boat using movable ballast and suitable for people with physical problems and or disabilities. It is highly experimental and designed to foil only downwind to start with while I learn to use the movable ballast system.
The mods I contemplated adding to the 16 and that are part of the aeoSKIFF14 design include buoyancy pods,sliding bench seats , an adjustable hub wand with clutch disengage similar to Bradfields Rave mods with manual overide for jumping.
I think the Moth class would benefit greatly from something the Bladerider claims to incorporate: retractable foils. John Ilett doubts that will work on a Moth but the idea of having to launch and wade out a long way to install foils doesn't go over well here.They worked perfectly on my 16 and allowed the boat to be trailered with the foils and foil control systems in place making set up as simple as any other 16' dinghy. Another mod your own guys seem to think would help beginners and that I have personal experience with is buoyancy pods(see the UK site-"Is this a trimaran") .I sailed a 14 footer for a long time a few years ago that had a higher beam to length ratio than a Moth-and it would have been unsailable(by me) w/o the pods. The stabilty of the Moth is greater on foils than off and "fixing" that problem would go a long way to enticing newcomers.
But you know what really amazes me: you guys that are (seemingly) active sailing the most revolutionary development in sailing in ,at least, my lifetime are so quiet-except of course when you want to "correct" a friend regarding whether the Moth is popular(your defnition) in Australia or not. I know you guys all seem to have your own websites but I didn't even know about Luka's until you posted here-and I do research on the Moth class.How many average sailors do you guys think even know that you have a website? You can see here from the pathetic comments of some of the anti-foilers(AF's) that they don't have a clue about what is going on regarding the performance of the Moth. Is Rohan the only one doing anything? Why don't you guys start a campaign to educate the public about the foiler Moth; why don't you talk about the tremendous performance of the boat on any other forums- are you trying to keep a secret? Do you guys in Australia visit sailing schools, yacht clubs, scout troops or whatever to try to showoff the boat up close and personal? You know, most people in the US and I dare say in Oz don't have a clue that Rohan has actualy beaten a fleet of A class cats or 49ers or whatever, or that Phil Stevenson matched speed off the wind with a Tornado while in 6th place in his own foiler Moth race. In my humble opinion, you guy do not talk enough about your boat-and I look at every major forum. In thread after thread on various forums are glaring falsehoods or "facts" that are plain wrong aout the Moth that you guys could clear up-if you decided to take the time and the heat. You can see on this forum if the AF's can't get you on the facts of the incredible performance of the Moth they'll come at you personally with out right lies, innuendo,distortion etc. Are you Moth guys afraid of incurring the wrath of some of these losers?
You asked what suggestions I might have: the biggest one is SPEAK UP! Don't let this exciting time go by whle you guys talk to each others website-get on SA- I would but can't because of their new software being incompatible with my antique webtv-but whats stopping you guys?
My interest is Moth techology not the Moth class specifically and I think you guys have a golden opportunity to translate the publicity the technology is receiving to boats on the water if you'd just be more proactive about getting the word out-and I wish you the best of luck!
Whether you guys fully appreciate it or not the the Moth technology is very significant in the annals of sailboat design. The AF's realize this
and three of them on this forum -unable to discredit the technology- try hard to discredit the messenger by calling the facts I have presented here "hype" and by ,most recently, engaging in one of the most disgracefull campaigns of personal attacks that I have ever witnessed on any forum. The attempt is clear : to shut me up. One of these individuals went so far as to say:".. He is also part of the mechanism of destroying dinghy sailing as foiler sailing is like a side car attraction..." Destroying dinghy sailing all by myself?? I know my last name is Lord but that goes too far....
To friend and foe alike let me make this clear: I will , to the best of my ability ,continue to present the FACTS of whats happening with bi-foil monofoiler development at every opportunity whether that means relating another Moth class "speed record" or Sean Langmans Maxi Skiff or the Out95 foiling. I will continue to report both the good ,bad and hopeful about my own foiler experiments and will contribute to this thread, "Foiler Design" and the "Trapwing" thread as I have something to add. And I encourage others interested in foiling to speak up and celebrate being alive in one of the most electric era's of sailboat innovation in history-Don't let the Af's discourage you-let's get the word out and let's discuss the newest developments ,misconceptions and disinformation about bi-foil monofoilers.
And once again: no, I won't be quiet.

foilr

07-06-2006, 09:49 PM

Thanks Doug.

A few comments...

I weigh 245 pounds and would be well outside of the perfomance weight range of the boat Fair point. Performing at the front of the Moth fleet does require youth, athleticism and relatively light weight.

retractable foils Yes they'll help launching, though won't achieve anything while sailing. Then there's the task of putting them down when you're sailing which is not trivial on a boat that is less than a foot wide. I'd like to see it in action though.

buoyancy pods Don't like the idea personally. But then it would help people who are learning.

are so quiet Yes. I would say there are very few Mothies that frequent internet forums. There are few Mothies to begin with. But then there are very few of the top 18' skiff sailors, 49er sailors etc here as well. I'd guess there are very few really brilliant sailors posting on the internet in any capacity.

I agree that we should speak up, and we all do it in our own way to provide our honest and authentic opinions and experiences with the boats. Internet forums don't lend themselves to either honesty or authenticity unfortunately.

Unfortunately the bits of information that do make it here end up being so distorted after passing through so many hands. ie. Phil paced a Tornado for a few hundred metres that day at SIRS, he was not racing, nor was the Tornado. VMG wasn't taken into account. Neither Phil nor any other Moth sailor I know would claim to be faster than a Tornado around the track.

We need to be pretty sure that what we claim to be evidence is rock-solid. One shadow of a doubt on a claim we make discredits everything else we say. Most of us don't want to look like fools.

Keep it real mate ;)

RHough

07-06-2006, 09:50 PM

... I designed my aeroSKIFF 16 a year before the first bifoil Moth flew and built it a year after. It was not a particular good foiler design and had some serious problems...

... and foils which are being incorporated into my new "Trapwing 14" foiler ... highly experimental and designed to foil only downwind to start with while I learn to use the movable ballast system...

... part of the aeoSKIFF14 design include buoyancy pods,sliding bench seats , an adjustable hub wand with clutch disengage similar to Bradfields Rave mods with manual overide for jumping...

Have you considered getting ONE system to work reliably before tossing all the bells and whistles into one boat? Like dusting off the foiling canter One Metre and getting the foil control system to work, then replacing the canting ballast with a sliding deck ballast system?

You can see here from the pathetic comments of some of the anti-foilers(AF's) that they don't have a clue about what is going on regarding the performance of the Moth. ... Rohan has actualy beaten a fleet of A class cats or 49ers or whatever, or that Phil Stevenson matched speed off the wind with a Tornado while in 6th place in his own foiler Moth race.

I'm certainly not anti-foiler and from what I've read in this thread I don't see any "Anti-Foiler" posters. I certainly have not described your efforts to build a foiler as pathetic, yet you feel that there are "Anti-Foilers" that are making pathetic comments. Who's guilty of mud-slinging?

The fact that a World Champion has sailed faster than a fleet of whatever's is not news. A World Champion that could not out sail a fleet of whatever's would be.

Matching speed with "a Tornado" while in 6th? So? What place was the Tornado in? Was it racing? Did it know it was (or should have been) racing against the Moth?

Whether you guys fully appreciate it or not the the Moth technology is very significant in the annals of sailboat design. The AF's realize this and three of them on this forum -unable to discrdit the technology- try hard to discredit the messenger by calling the facts I have presented here "hype" and by ,most recently, engaging in one of the most disgracefull campaigns of personal attacks that I have ever witnessed on any forum.

Just so we are clear ... NO one is even trying to discredit the technology. It exists, it is interesting, no argument. Where we differ is the importance to sailing in general, what works (extremely well) at the Moth scale has absolutely no impact on the future design of 40ft mass produced sailboats. There will never be a Beneteau Foil 37.5 ... Calling the the foiling Moth one of the greatest innovations in the last 100 years is hype ... some of us are tired of it.

"Hype"
1. Extreme promotion of a person, idea, or product.
2. overwhelming publicity or exaggerated claims v. to promote or accent excessively
3. to give something more attention than it deserves or to try to make it seem more important than it really is
4. A hyperbole, largely synonymous with exaggeration and overstatement, is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated or extravagant. It may be used due to strong feelings or is used to create a strong impression and is not meant to be taken literally.
5. Technology hype is unjustified, excessive discussion and usage of a technology or concept

To friend and foe alike let me make this clear: I will , to the best of my ability ,continue to present the FACTS of whats happening with bi-foil monofoiler development at every opportunity whether that means relating another Moth class "speed record" or Sean Langmans Maxi Skiff or the Out95 foiling.

Facts are one thing.

Fact: Someone on a foiling Moth got a snap 27.9 knot reading on a GPS
Fact: The 10 second average is 20% slower
Fact: GPS speed reporting data is notoriously full of spikes, most people don't take spot GPS readings seriously
Fact: People that look at GPS track data for speed conformation are leaning to an average of several non-overlapping 10 second data tracks.
Fact: On a given day two back to back GPS runs can vary by 10+ knots (we have big current here).
Fact: The only valid way to measure sailing speed is over a closed course, GPS was not designed to measure speed (that's why it is not very good at it).

Taking those facts, picking out only "Moth on foils 29.7 knots" and claiming that foiling sailboats will revolutionize sailing ... is ... HYPE

frosh

07-07-2006, 12:23 AM

Doug, I am relieved to hear that you are still OK. Can you please keep the postings down below 1000 words though, unless you really have anything new!
There is nothing that will allow the Moth class to grow significantly, in my opinion, as it seems to way out on a limb to what mainstream sailors might be interested in. It is spectacular, it is very fast, no argument, but is moving into a rarified environment since it went 1 foot wide, and even more so when it sprouted foils.
No one can build one at home that will be truly competive at the top level, and the cost of buying a professional built one, is too high for the TARGET MARKET. Yes, the target market is older teenagers and a few years older, that generally dont have the finance.
As we all get older and then have the money, some of us get heavy, less agile, and want something that is comfortable as well as high performance. Therefore your dilemma, to get the numbers to grow isn't going to happen!

Doug Lord

07-07-2006, 06:46 PM

Thanks Doug.

A few comments...

Fair point. Performing at the front of the Moth fleet does require youth, athleticism and relatively light weight.

Yes they'll help launching, though won't achieve anything while sailing. Then there's the task of putting them down when you're sailing which is not trivial on a boat that is less than a foot wide. I'd like to see it in action though.

Don't like the idea personally. But then it would help people who are learning.

Yes. I would say there are very few Mothies that frequent internet forums. There are few Mothies to begin with. But then there are very few of the top 18' skiff sailors, 49er sailors etc here as well. I'd guess there are very few really brilliant sailors posting on the internet in any capacity.

I agree that we should speak up, and we all do it in our own way to provide our honest and authentic opinions and experiences with the boats. Internet forums don't lend themselves to either honesty or authenticity unfortunately.

Unfortunately the bits of information that do make it here end up being so distorted after passing through so many hands. ie. Phil paced a Tornado for a few hundred metres that day at SIRS, he was not racing, nor was the Tornado. VMG wasn't taken into account. Neither Phil nor any other Moth sailor I know would claim to be faster than a Tornado around the track.

We need to be pretty sure that what we claim to be evidence is rock-solid. One shadow of a doubt on a claim we make discredits everything else we say. Most of us don't want to look like fools.

Keep it real mate ;)
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Scott, I make a serious effort to accurately quote what people who sail Moth's have said on the subject. If you check here , post 38, you will see that I was exactly correct in my description of what Phil said he did. This is one of the coolest, most inspirational things written by any Moth sailor anywhere at any time:
Building a Moth - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=27655&hl=
I 100% agree with you that comments regarding Moth performance by Moth sailors needs to be
reported accurately and I do my best.
I don't blame you for not wanting to look like a fool but I can't understand your reluctance to utilize the internet to communicate facts about the Moth-you have your own website so you can't be too negative about the internet-and you have posted here. There is much people like you , Luka and others can do to get the word out about your fantastic class without looking like a fool to anyone.(except ,perhaps to AF's, but they don't count)
Do you guys-as a class- in Australia have any organized way to introduce more people to the boat? Don't you think it might be beneficial to try such things as removable buoyancy pods to-at least- give people a taste of foiling that they otherwise might not get because of becoming frustrated trying to keep the boat upright as a seahuggger? I'm curious about your thinking on how to take advantage of the remarkable situation you've found yourself in as a foiler Moth sailor.

foilr

07-07-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote by Phil S
But no matter how you end up in the races, sailing a foil moth is something out of this world, especially when you can match speed with a spinnacker borne Tornado downwind: half the hull length, a quarter the sail area, 1/6 the weight and 1/8 the righting moment, but heaps more efficiency. That was my highlight from last weekend and I came 6th out of 7 moths.

Quote by foilr
Phil paced a Tornado for a few hundred metres that day at SIRS, he was not racing, nor was the Tornado. VMG wasn't taken into account. Neither Phil nor any other Moth sailor I know would claim to be faster than a Tornado around the track.

Case in point of how a statement can be mis-interpreted.

Do you guys-as a class- in Australia have any organized way to introduce more people to the boat? Don't you think it might be beneficial to try such things as removable buoyancy pods to-at least- give people a taste of foiling that they otherwise might not get because of becoming frustrated trying to keep the boat upright as a seahuggger?

No. The Association only barely has the funds to survive year to year. It does not have the funds to support a fleet of learn-to-sail Moths, and very very few sailors give away their $18k carbon fibre toys to learners.
If a sailor is going to get frustrated keeping a boat upright, they're not going to be Moth sailors. Simple.
Being a Moth sailor takes a unique mindset. Ego is not something you want to bring to the class, because you're going to get cut down to size very quickly. A Mothie needs to be very persistent, very patient to learn how to sail one. There are very few people in this instant-gratification society who have those attributes.

The Association doesn't have a militant recruitment approach. The majority of sailors enjoy sailing and racing their boats without the hard sell and ra-ra publicity. We've taken a hands-off approach, if people are interested in sailing our boats, they'll take it on their own initiative to do the research and come down and get involved. If they don't have that amount of initiative they're hardly going to survive. Obviously that approach isn't entirely successful in increasing the numbers.

But then I have given my foiler to a bunch of rock-stars for test sails. A few Moth World Champions, a few 18' skiff winners, a few guys who could spend the $18k without blinking. None of them are rushing to order boats, despite being amazed by the sensation. Unfortunately the class lacks the critical mass of closely matched boats which would make racing for these people worthwhile.

So... a podded-contraption won't be the silver bullet. I don't see the problem as being a technical one.

Doug Lord

07-07-2006, 08:20 PM

RHough

07-08-2006, 02:56 AM

For those in denial regarding the Moth class "contest" and the reliability of GPS speed readings it is interesting to note the comments by the designer of the Velocitec on Rohans website as well as the fact that Rohan is currently ranked at #1 in dinghy speed by the Speed Freaks page of Yachts and Yachting who attempt to weigh the plausibility of GPS speed claims-giving Rohan an 85% plausibility.
Sailing news as it happens - Yachts and Yachting Online
Address:http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/speedfreaks/
+++++++++++++++++

Open your eyes people.

More HYPE, Yes it is a fact than the site posted gave the 27.9 number a 85% plausibility. The site lists 17 speeds with rankings that range from 50% to 95% with 13 of the 17 scoring an identical 85%. How is plausibility rated? The "evidence" posted in support of the claims include spikes over distances of 80 feet, 44 metres, and 430 feet. The "scores" were 95%, 85%, and 95% respectively. How credible is a 85% ranking from a source that rates a 80 foot spike at 95%?

How credible are speed accuracy claims from the manufacturer of a GPS unit that does not do data storage and download?

Anyone that has spent any time looking at GPS data knows that single data points are very unreliable. All one has to do is set the GPS unit on a table and let it record for an hour. The GPS will tell you that it has gone for a walkabout at speeds up to 3 knots while all the time your lying eyes tell you it has not moved off the table.

Add the fact that wind induced currents are on the order of 3% of wind speed, and the fact that there is no mention of tidal current during the "record" runs and it is quite clear that GPS speed is not very accurate.

In 15 knots of wind the surface current is liable to be about .5 knot. Depending on the boat's heading the same speed through the water can vary by almost a knot on the GPS.

Even if we take for granted that the tidal current is zero, a 20 knot reading might be 16 or 24, depending on boat heading and which way the GPS hiccuped that second.

As far as being in denial about GPS speed "records" ... here is what Mothies have to say:

26-6-06 vavavague...if you have been following our speed ladder (and the yachts and yachting clone) you will be dismayed to learn that int-moth.org.uk no longer believes what it sees on the little gps devices. we have been getting increasingly sceptical of rogue readings this season, with the speed increases out of propotion to the development in the class, and now we have proof. sam pascoe took out two gps units a garmin and a velocitec. here are the max speed readings for three sessions:

Garmin Velocitek
20.7 21.8
23.5 23.2
22.8 20.4

you can see the difference between them varies from 0.3 knots (1.3%) to 2.4 knots (11.8%). either we just laugh it off as a bit of fun. or if we want to take the quest for top speed seriously we will have to change the system eg by taking an average of three max speeds within one hour from a downloaded trace.

The people that actually sail the boat no longer believe the GPS hype either.

For someone that reads all the Moth sites, I'm surprised that Doug missed this.

It seems clear to me that Doug believes the speed numbers because he wants them to be true. My daughter believes in the tooth fairy because she wants to find money under her pillow. Just because someone believes something it does not make it so. Heck, there are probably people that think Mac26's are offshore racing boats.

Doug Lord

07-08-2006, 08:51 AM

RHough

07-08-2006, 10:41 AM

The test reported on the UK site seems totaly ridiculous: a comparision of two GPS units w/o accompanying comparison of their stats. A more interesting comparison would have been taking two of the SAME units out and seeing what the readings were.There is a whole thread on Sailing Anarchy about the Velocitec and unless you assume the designer is outright lying or purposely exagerating it is the most accurate handheld "sport" GPS on the market with far less tendency toward spikes or other anomalies than the Garmin.
In a worse case scenario RHOUGH has pointed out that it is plausible that Rohan actually did 33.4 knots(38.5mph) rather than the paltry 27.9 knots Y&Y credits him with. Way to go Rohan!
Even though, thanks to Mr. Hough ,it seems possible that Rohan is approaching 40mph I think Rohan did exactly the right thing when announcing that he'd whipped Sam Pascoe's max speed: he simultaneously announced the 10 second average at around 23 knots. Which was the MAX speed only a short time ago.
Anyway you look at it it is absolutely clear that the top end speed of the foiler Moth has not been reached yet and you can count on seeing it here when it is.

Let's compare stats:

Velocitek Speed +/- 0.2 Knots (http://www.velocitekspeed.com/products.php?p=s5)

Garmin Speed +/- 0.05 m/s (http://www.garmin.com/products/foretrex201/spec.html)

0.05 meter/second = 0.097192225 knot

Comparing manufacturer claims, the Garmin Unit is twice as accurate as the Velocitek

The real issue is the nature of GPS. A GPS unit does not measure speed directly. Speed is calculated from a change in position over time. The speed indicated is only as accurate as the position information and clock used to make the calculation.

How accurate is the position? Outside North America the reported position is within 15m 95% of the time. In areas that have WAAS coverage (North America) the position is within 3m 95% of the time.

27.9 knot = 14.353 meter/second

27.9 knots reported by GPS means that the position changed 14.353 metres in 1 second. However the start point is +/- 15m and the end point is +/- 15m. How can anyone rely on a 14.353m position change when the accuracy of the system is only +/- 15m?

22.3 knots over 10 sec = 114.72 metres

Could be 99.72 metres (19.38 knots) or 129.72 metres (25.21 knots)

The nature of the GPS system does not allow for accurate speed measurement at low speeds over short times. It does not matter who builds the unit, the raw information from the GPS system has limited accuracy and should not be used for speed indication.

Using a GPS receiver for spot speed measurement is like using an elastic band for a tape measure. The results are not reliable, repeatable (except by chance), or accurate.

On another forum someone tried to dispute GPS errors with the observation that the two GPS units on his boat always agreed within 0.1 knot ... I asked him which side of his boat was a mile ahead or behind after sailing for an hour ... :)

I agree that the top speed of the Moth has not been reached, we don't know with any real degree of accuracy what the speeds are, but I'm sure they will get faster. Perhaps someone will drop one off a cliff with the GPS unit turned on and claim 50+ knots with a photo of the read-out.

RHough

07-08-2006, 12:47 PM

My error.

"From the NAVSTAR GPS User Equipment Introduction document Section 3.7:

GPS receivers typically calculate velocity by measuring the frequency shift (Doppler shift) of the GPS D-band carrier(s). Velocity accuracy can be scenario dependent, (multipath, obstructed sky view from the dash of a car, mountains, city canyons, bad DOP) but 0.2 m/sec per axis (95%) is achievable for PPS and SPS velocity accuracy is the same as PPS when SA is off.

Velocity measured by a GPS is inherently 3 dimension, but consumer GPS receivers only report 2D (horizontal) speed on their readout. Garmin's specifications quote 0.1mph accuracy but due to signal degredation problems noted above, perhaps 0.5mph accuracy in typical automobile applications would be what you can count on."

Although Doppler shift should be more accurate than position comparison for speed, the fact remains that a GPS receiver at rest will record changes in position and non-zero speed.

The simple fact that an instrument reports both position change and speed change while sitting on a rock tells us that the same errors must be present when the unit is moving.

Every data track that I have ever looked at has random spikes from moment to moment. Take a look at this track from a 95% plausible speed report: Dart Track (http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/speedfreaks/?s=3&USFN=45)

Note that from 11:05 to 11:07 the reported altitude varies from 0 to -15 feet ... should we start a thread on sailing submarines? It would as valid as 27.9 knot GPS speed.

Look also at the reported headings, they vary from 356 to 27 ... randomly ... think how much more credible this "evidence" would be if the boat was not submerged and was sailing in some semblance of a straight line ... yet it was rated as 95% plausible?

Doug Lord

07-08-2006, 01:28 PM

Here are Alex Stewarts(designer of Velocitek) comments regarding Mr. Hough's posts. I want to thank him very much for taking the time to respond and apologize for addressing my e-mail to him as "Stewart" instead of Alec:

From: stewart@velocitekspeed.com(Alec*Stewart) D
Hi Doug,
Thanks for the email. Here are my comments:
"The real issue is the nature of GPS. A GPS unit does not measure speed directly. Speed is calculated from a change in position over time. The speed indicated is only as accurate as the position information and clock used to make the calculation."
-This is not the case. All GPS receivers I know of (including ours and Garmin's) calculate speed based on the Doppler shift of the GPS signals from various satellites. Since the frequency of the GPS signals is not influenced by irregularities in the ionosphere, velocity solutions are much more accurate than position ones (position solutions rely on calculating the transit time of the signals which is influenced by variable conditions in the ionosphere).
"Using a GPS receiver for spot speed measurement is like using an elastic band for a tape measure. The results are not reliable, repeatable (except by chance), or accurate."
-Please borrow a gps receiver and drive around with it on the dash of your car somewhere where there are no tall buildings or trees. Compare the readings to your dash speedometer. I'm confident this exercise will change your mind.
"Let's compare stats:
Velocitek Speed +/- 0.2 Knots
Garmin Speed +/- 0.05 m/s"
-These stats are for steady conditions. Anyone who has used any kind of GPS speedometer can tell you that when you are constantly accelerating, turning and getting bounced around the accuracy suffers. Spikes in the output become apparent and the output can also lag in time.
The difference between Velocitek and mass market brands is in how we handle this problem. The mass market brands deal with speed measurements almost as an afterthought. They record maximums without any filtering. If there is one errant spike in a four hour session, they will grab it.
For us, speed measurement is the main event. We also have the benefit of knowing the device will be used in a boat.
Before we record a measurement as a maximum or as part of a ten-second average we screen it using a simple model of the dynamics of a sail powered, planning hull. If the measurement infers an acceleration that defies the laws of physics, we chuck it.
A simple way to test this is to put your S5 on the dash of your car. Floor the gas pedal up to 40mph and then slam on the brakes. You will see the numbers on the display keep up with your dash speedometer, but when you press the max recall button you will see something under 20 knots.
Our final layer of protection against spikes is that our devices allow the best 10 second average to be recalled instantly. This allows you to judge the credibility of a speed for your self.
Based on our experience with windsurfing where we see measurements like Rohan's all the time, a max of 27.9 knots with a 23 knot average is pretty reasonable.
I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any more questions.
Best regards,
Alec
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Lord [mailto:lorsail@webtv.net]
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 6:23 AM
To: stewart@velocitekspeed.com
Subject: boatdesign.net
Stewart, when you have a chance could you comment on the (short) GPS discussion here:
Moth on foils 27.9 knots (32mph) - Page 14 - Boat Design Forums Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=96019
**I would appreciate it-the forum isn't as big as SA but there are many technically inclined sailors participating.
****While I'm not a customer yet I will be soon. Thanks! Sail Fast, Doug Lord

RHough

07-08-2006, 02:11 PM

Yep, as I posted, I was wrong about how GPS receivers do speed.

We are missing the point. 22.3 knots for 10 seconds or 27.9 knots for however long are indeed impressive numbers. Even if they may not be accurate by 10-20% they would still be noteworthy. No argument.

Where we differ is our perception of what implications Moth Speeds have to the rest of the world.

My opinion is that little boats, sailed by top athletes that display phenomenal performance (due in part to the unique physics of scale), have little or no interest for mainstream sailing. Foils on little boats are not going to spawn foils on production Hunters, Catalinas, or Beneteaus. Thus I do not feel that foiling Moths are anywhere near one of the great innovations of the last 100 years.

In contrast, Stainless Steel rigging, Alloy Spars, Dacron Sails and Lines, and Glassfibre Hulls have all changed sailing in the last 100 years. Almost every boat in a marina has all of these features. Better sailing through chemistry. :)

27.9 or whatever, yes very fast. Yes, remarkable. Portent of things to come outside of little boat racing in sheltered water, no.

Doug, you are a clever guy. I'll bet that you can build a fun to sail "sit in" boat. Why it has to be a single track foiler is beyond me.

Why not start with a trimaran platform to eliminate the gadgets needed to balance the thing and optimize the design for low speed take-off rather than top speed. You have already done most of the homework on what it takes for early lift off and you have a working prototype. I would think that the chances of success would be greater starting from what works now, rather than from a clean sheet of paper.

Rick Loheed

07-10-2006, 11:45 AM

Stephen,

Sorry, I did not answer your question about the MM56CX drag. I am submitting it to the whole group because after testing it, I very much like the concept and have ambitious plans to build a motor yacht with this concept for myself if I become rich and famous someday- it would have retractible foils though to allow for porting and shallow Chesapeake Bay Operations, I have most of the sticky and difficult details worked out but don't choose to discuss that yet....

I must clarify this testcraft is not my boat design- it is the brainchild of Rune Odegard of Sandane, Norway, and we supplied him with the data for him to analyze and report mostly. (Rune may be reached at rune@vestdata.no or rune@runeco.no, depending on if he is in or out of his office) Rune holds international patents on the application of dynamic support to trimarans for ferry service, and calls it a DAT, or Dynamically Assisted Trimaran. I created a new foil section for this task, designed the foils, & we built the boat (I and a freind of mine machined the 16ft wide 16 inch chord foil section on a VMC 150 CNC mill ourselves of solid aluminum, and I machined and welded all the struts as well as performed a lot of the hull welding) & then performed the tests for him based on prior work experience together on the Cirrus 120 and UT-928 SES ferry vessels built at Brodrene Aa in Hyen, Norway. He is very sensitive about the design, however I don't think he'll mind my posting this drag test result. These are tow test results with a rope and load cell- the scatter is due to the experimental data acquisition method and I think it is conservative- I must caveat the test was only somewhat valid- our 'thrust line' was not where it normally would be towing from the bow, and controlling fore aft trim during the hump region was highly difficult for the skipper of the testcraft- I was driving the tow boat and recording the data points. Drag reduction for these boats is accomplished through reduced wetted surface of course, but the flap angle & incidence angle vs speed schedule is critical to maintain- and very difficult while towing. We had to repeat the procedure over and over again refining it each time, and average the results. Later we had load cells on the outboards allowing a better drag curve to be generated, but only have these more sophisticated results for the lifting bodies. The normal foil application employs a computer programmed schedule of flap and trim, which has the tendency to optimize the drag curve better than we could during this test. Also, we had a hydraulic jump at hump caused by the bow wave reflecting off the inner strut- something we solved perhaps after this test, I am not certain- this testing was done in 2000-2001. I need to see if my partner has a final report in his archives I can officially post some of the results from.

Also, the original testcraft used 2 Berkeley waterjets to try to mimic the KaMeWa's likely to be specified in the full scale craft so we could get some experience with waterjet inlet broaching, etc. Unfortunately and as you may know, the Berkeley's and KaMeWa's are apples and oranges- Berkeley jets are more for drag boats and use pressure charged inlets while the KaMeWa jets are higher mass flow and usually employ more iso-kinetic inlets. This meant that our efficiencies were, well, pathetic on the model craft with the Berkeley jets installed (40% tops...). Nothing against Berkeley- they are fine jets, they just were not designed for this task- we should have just used outdrives probably. In the picture I posted, we had twin 250 Yamaha outboards on the back with much better efficiency, (probably around 60-65%) but also with lifting bodies we were testing for Navatek (You can find and download the report I wrote with Chris Hart and Bill McFann at ftp://www.foundation.csulb.edu/CCDoTT/Deliverables/2001/task%202.14.1/task%202.14.1_Final%20Report.pdf), with outboards or outdrives we could fly 100% of course, whereas the waterjet inlets were flush to the centerhull.

I will leave it to you to figure out the comparisons, but I think you will find it is dramatic. At high speeds, drag can probably conservatively be 1/3rd or so that of a semi-displacement hull. I would have to derive the curves for a similar semi-displacement boat and must get back to work, sorry. I will say that once we had this boat flying, we always seemed to need more weight, and the seakeeping was fabulous as I stated before. My absolutely favorite thing was to perform trials on this boat, and if it got rough it was the preferred place to be for absolutely positively certain as we watched the chase boat suffer. Too bad we could not have had this boat as the camera platform- it would be spectacular in that role. I wish we had it running to go film the Volvo ocean racers sailing down the bay!!!

Hydrofoils of course always have a cross over point before which they add drag, after which they reduce drag. Discussions of semi-displacement usually involve boats where this is critical to analyze carefully- In comparisons recently done for a large semi-planing cat, the centerfoil concept was proven too risky and would only add drag at cruise. Large trim tabs however took the top speed from 24 Knots to 28 Knots, pleasing the owner a great deal while also providing him with motion control since we also installed our dynamic motion control system.

Regards,

Rick

Rick Loheed

07-10-2006, 12:15 PM

Rhough and Doug,

Doug, Rhough has a point- look at Sam Bradfield's SCAT built at Multihull Technologies by Walter Shurtenburger- the same sort of layout though perhaps not so radical might help your cause. We try to always employ the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid...) principal here, choosing to reduce technical risk by only advancing one tricky bit at a time. Our recently completed project was the USN LSC 'Sea Fighter', where we did not employ the KISS principal and it was highly difficult- though successful. See the Misc. Hybrid vessels forum at foils.org for Bill White's and my comments.

I am headed in the trimaran direction for my small hydrofoil sailing craft design -choosing to not try to fly my canoe as I suggested on the Foiler design thread, mainly because I can't replace the boat if I wrecked it and it is a beautiful piece of work. I recently purchased a Windmill class sailboat- it has has a very nice lightweight non-spinnaker rig- so light in fact that it can be lifted and installed by nearly anyone. The design draft is about 10% max, and has a bendy mast to flatten it with speed. It is a fractional rig with a small jib, perfect for my wife to handle (smaller than the E-Scow that I drive her nuts with...).

I just raced in my first National Regatta in the Windmill class this last weekend. I haven't competitively raced one designs for years- for the first time in a Windmill class regatta I fell we did O.K.... I need to study start tactics, as my old trickery did not work here....but my boat speed was adequate and I finished 15th out of 24 despite being scraped off on the committee boat a couple of times by the rest of the fleet, who obviously did not suffer from this problem and caught me 'barging'....!!

Anyway, my plan now is to use that rig to experiment with, and build a simple and inexpensive as possible test foiler on a hull I can break without guilt.....but I do not want a boat that is a sit in the center type of affair- I like to hike, it's fun- despite saying 'we're getting too old for this...' at the Nationals-I am 52..... I'll let you know how it goes once I get further along....

Now I have wasted all morning on my posts here, and so really must get back to work!!

Regards,

Rick Loheed

frosh

07-11-2006, 05:08 PM

Rick, I think it is is just as well that you didnt go with your IC as a foiler test bed as you are not able to respond quickly enough on the end of a sliding seat and some very nasty crashes would be inevitable.
What is your vision for the small trimaran you are planning? Interesting that you plan to hike out, not sit in the middle as I thought was standard practice in the US.
What sort of foil design, and will they need are control system?
I assume what you are planning will have no resemblance to a Hobie Trifoiler??

gggGuest

07-11-2006, 05:48 PM

If you're going to balance the boat (which seems eminently sensible, the windward hull pull down tris seem not to have the all round performance of a Moth) why a trimaran? In this context I've wondered about a catamaran with actively controlled daggerboard on the leeward hull, but the windward dagerboar foil set uncontrolled or maybe permanently lifting so that you fly the boat on just the lee foils, like a Moth, but have the reserve stability and extra righting moment of a catamaran. I'm not suffiently interested in owning either a foiling boat or a catamaran to try it though.

Doug Lord

07-11-2006, 07:01 PM

Rick, congratulations on the Windmill! One of my favorite boats. I raced one years ago all over the southeast. Back then the "hot" crew max was 260-what is it now?
I'm interested in exploring the potential of a two foil sailing hydrofoil in conjunction with a movable ballast system-it just sounds like fun to me. I worked on Dr. Sams test model for Skat and with his help designed and developed the F3 RC hydrofoil(www.microsail.com) I guess I have a bifoiler fixation because there is something about not using the foil to develop righting moment that is attractive as well as just having fewer foils. However, the Rave and the F3 were quite fast with Dr.Sams differential altitude control systems. The F3 model would take off in a 5mph wind.
My 16 worked well enough to encourage me to stick with a bifoil arrangement but tieing a bifoiler system into a movable ballast system is a real challenge that could have wide ranging benefits-and besides I do want a "sit in" configuration.
I forget the exact quote from Tom Speer but he was quoting the designer of the Australian catamaran foiler(Spitfire) as to why he preferred ballast instead of differential lift on the foils to generate RM-he said something like with ballast you only have to lift it once-whereas with a differential lift system the foil loading continues to increase as the boat goes faster.
I think gggguest might have something with a cat designed to sail on just two foils but the attendent problems retracting the other two and the requirement for four certainly add weight and complexity.The best thinking I've seen for a multifoiler since the Rave/Skat was a concept sketch from Rob Denney for a C class proa-using only two hydrofoils-it's on the C-class thread on SA.
Too bad you don't live near here Rick- I'd lend you my foils which would work fine for the Windmill(for a bifoil version)- maybe help think things out....
Good luck either way you go!

gggGuest

07-11-2006, 07:17 PM

I think gggguest might have something with a cat designed to sail on just two foils but the attendent problems retracting the other two and the requirement for four certainly add weight and complexity.

I wouldn't retract them sailing. I'd have a string on each side of the boat that would disable the wand and put the daggerboard foil into full lift and aim to sail the boat with the windward foils clear of the water. Presumably you'd angle the foils so that the lifting surface was horizontal at the optimum heel angle, which would also mean the windward foil would hit the water one end first rather than all at once.

Doug Lord

07-11-2006, 07:40 PM

Something like that or maybe have it designed so that upwind at the ideal angle of heel the foils were angled simlarly to the way Moth foils are giving superb windward ability. In other words , so that the foils develop some of the lateral resistance while unloading the daggerboard(s) on the cat...
index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=28677
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=28677

Rick Loheed

07-12-2006, 12:28 PM

My canoe isn't an IC, it is a very nice cold molded sailing/paddling canoe designed and lovingly built (Instrument quality workmanship) by my brother, Phil Loheed of the Loheed Design Partnership. It is shown here in the Phils Canoe.jpg linesplan done in Freeship. It has high enough hullspeed and a narrow stern- I fugured this made it possible to trim up for take off. The hull weighs 130 Lbs., It does not have a sliding seat, but has rails to hook your toes under, and carries ~80 SF of sail already. Since the Moths have hiking racks like Bethwaite's 18's, I thought maybe it would be slightly tricky, so I planned some ailerons despite the extra drag. The Canoe sails very well indeed + is extremely pretty + would be impossible to replace, so....change of plan....

Although I do not want to discuss too much about the details before it is really more mature, the enclosed HardChineAftTri_Linesplan.JPG set of lines is where I was headed with a 16 ft hull. The "Ama's" are not right yet, and I do not intend to use them except for initial stability. Deck layout would be like a Scow, with the central hull open for your legs and for hiking straps, floor block, etc. It would be rigged like a modern Windmill. There would be 2 forward T foils (P/S), and I have a "reasonably simple" design that is retractible. I also have my own plan for height control based on some of our experiences with flight controls, though it is totally "analog" without any electronics, and I'd rather not elaborate until I am sure it will all work. Either way, once I test it I'll report on it here, just not until it is "tested and broken" ad nauseum.....but it works mathematically so far..nothing jumping out to say I am totally nuts yet.....

It is possible I might just try bifoiling the Windmill first, I don't know. Financing for any of these projects is tight at the moment.

gggGuest

07-12-2006, 07:18 PM

Something like that or maybe have it designed so that upwind at the ideal angle of heel the foils were angled

Something like this?

Doug Lord

07-12-2006, 07:40 PM

Just like that but with the windward foil clear of the water and the leeward foil at the angle you show it(at the ideal angle of heel). It would be a piece of cake to retract the windward foils so the hydrofoil was close to the bottom and so at the ideal angle of heel the two leeward foils were just as you show them. The Moth has proven that to be an upwind advantage and this boat would have a power to carry sail advantage over an equivalent length monofoiler. The bad news continues to be the weight of the extra set of foils and their wetted surface when the windward hull comes back down. But those two drawbacks will definitely have their impact reduced by the enormous sail area. And, if built lite enough, this thing could parallel the Moth low windspeed takeoff giving it quite a wide range of really hot performance.
Another cool thing with the idea is that a central wand could be used that is automatically disconnected from the windward foils as they are raised. I think you may have something here....

Doug Lord

07-15-2006, 09:14 AM

Very interesting discussion here on technical subjects relating to the foiling Moth including foil sizes,wands, rudder foils, gantries, hull design for foilers and the impact of foiling on the Moth class:
design update 06
Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/DesignUpdate06.htm Changed:10:37 AM on Tuesday, February 14, 2006

Doug Lord

07-24-2006, 06:04 PM

The Moth worlds have started in Denmark with something like 31 of 33 boats foilers-probably the largest foiler fleet ever:
Scuttlebutt Photos: Moth International World Championship 2006
Address:http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/06/mothworlds/
------------------------------
International Moth Class UK Homepage
Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/ Changed:12:28 PM on Monday, July 24, 2006
New pix posted here as of 7/29-
---------------------
International Moth World Championship 2006
Address:http://www.horsens-sejlklub.dk/IMWC2006/index.HTM Changed:3:50 PM on Monday, March 20, 2006
-----------------
Cool shot of a foiler fleet-all on foils-at the start:
06-12265_MothWorld-01.jpg?story=1781
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/2006_worlds/06-12265_MothWorld-01.jpg?story=1781 Changed:4:29 PM on Thursday, July 27, 2006
-----------------------
Congratulations to Simon Payne for first and to Rohan Veal for second.
Dominant showing by the UK Foiler Moth Team!

The Revolution continues......

Doug Lord

08-04-2006, 04:47 PM

See the August 4, 2004 issue of Scuttlebutt(issue 2152) for an excerpt from the Daily Sail on the Olympic potential of the International Moth and/or it's one design cousin ,the Bladerider.
Just below that is a new video showing the Moth decimating the current Olympic Laser.....
Scuttlebutt: Your Source for Daily Sailing News
Address:http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/
---------------------
Interesting discussion on the Moth in the Olympics:
Foiling Moths as Olympic class - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=39068
The Revolution continues....

frosh

08-04-2006, 10:34 PM

My reading of scuttlebutt seems to indicate that it is very possible that Olympic Sailing will take a downgrade after an expected near windless regatta in China 2008. Already we are seeing the least media interest in this event every time a games is held.
The pressure will be on all existing Olympic classes not to be eliminated from the London games in 2012, rather than the possibility of adding a new class.
The Moth being development, one of very few left in the world, has no chance. Furthermore the IMCA would never agree to go one design even if an offer was on the table from ISAF.

CT 249

08-04-2006, 11:45 PM

The fact that the Moth beats the Laser is not exactly a surprise.....based on sheer price alone a Moth should be 50% quicker than a Laser. :) Moth have been quicker than Lasers in a breeze for about 30 years and in that 30 years Laser numbers have increased and Moth numbers have decreased (which is a tragedy but something that surely reasonable people should take to heart and try to learn from).

It's a little bit like getting all excited about the fact that a Formula board can beat a Moth downwind in breeze - it's only to be expected, so who cares?

Apart from the pun, I'm surprised that the Daily Sail thinks that a class that gets 33 boats at a worlds (fewer than in the vast majority of earlier worlds in that class) is said to be "in the ascendancy".

In the interests of fairness;

1- I must say that there's an interesting post from the the current International Canoe European champion that mentions that he finds foiling his Moth to be clearly more fun than sailing the Canoe most of the time.

2- Given the comments about foilers and weed, surely we should note that another Aussie's blog reveals that he (a top 10 sailor in the worlds) also dropped back in the fleet because weed got stuck on his centreboard. He was back to the 30s or so before he cleared it, so that hurt his entire world championship.

Interesting point is that he was sailing the Laser Radial Worlds, not the Moth worlds. :-)

RHough

08-05-2006, 10:42 AM

Just below that is a new video showing the Moth decimating the current Olympic Laser.....

So what? The Olympic classes are not the fastest boats around. Never have been. The fact that a Moth can beat a Laser means nothing. A Tempest can beat a Star, so what? ... What class is raced in the Olympics? There are any number of 3 man boats that are faster than the Soling, so what?

There is no way that a class that draws 30 boats to their Worlds is going to replace a class where regattas have to be separated into gold and silver fleets. The 2005 Senior Laser Worlds had only 138 boats, because entry is limited. The 2005 Master Laser Worlds also had over 125 sailors.

How can you even begin to compare a boat where beating 30 others makes you a world camp against a boat that requires that you beat 100's of others just to get an entry into a 125+ boat fleet?

Which class is going to create better sailors? The huge low tech class (Laser) or the tiny high tech class (Moth)?

Dream on Doug. :)

gggGuest

08-05-2006, 04:49 PM

Which class is going to create better sailors? The huge low tech class (Laser) or the tiny high tech class (Moth)?

That is absolutely and completely irrelevant to the discussion, but the Mothies are infinitely more sophisticated boat handlers. A couple of seasons in Moths seems to significantly improve most sailors results when they go back to the conventional craft.

RHough

08-05-2006, 05:58 PM

Chris Ostlind

08-05-2006, 06:04 PM

You claim that Hough's argument is irrelevant and then go right out and prove his point by observing that competition and boat handling improve by sailing finnicky Moths.

Hough is saying that the shear numbers of competitors in a class such as the Lasers force the cream to rise to the top by attrition, boat skills and preperation of equipment. Did I miss something, or is that exactly what Veal says on his pages when he refers to his own fitness level as a weapon later in a race?

"It seems as though anyone of the foilers can lead around the course for the first lap, but there are only a few guys that are capable of winning a race after three laps due to the high skill and fitness required to sail these demanding boats."

Rohan uses fitness as one of the skills he applies to drop opponents in his wake. Anyone coming forward in the huge Laser class has the exact same battle. They must use all their tools to forge a path to the front and then find something extra to stay there. That something is the stuff learned from overall competition and the precise boat handling required to lead the pack consistently. So, it's very much the same process, if not the same specific boat.

If the Moths had the same numbers that are starting for the Lasers, what would you be saying then? That attrition, fortitude and prep don't count?

Doug Lord

08-05-2006, 06:10 PM

A one design version of the Bladerider or Prowler could provide not only the highest level of singlehanded competition ever in the Olympics but could feed the television audience in a way that would be sure to raise Olympic sailing visibility -and at a level of excitement the Laser or Finn could never, ever muster for a TV audience.
The 49er certainly wasn't the worlds most popular doblehander when it was selected for the role of Olympic doublehander.

Chris Ostlind

08-05-2006, 06:33 PM

"The 49er certainly wasn't the worlds most popular doblehander when it was selected for the role of Olympic doublehander." Doug Lord

Doug, just how many performance skiffs do you think there were running around the planet when the 49er was selected... couple thousand or so, maybe more? How many manufacturers do you think have a stake in the addition of the 49er as an Olympic class? No not just the builders of 49ers. It's way more than that as most of the small boat makers get rub-off peripheral sales due to the inclusion of the 49er if they have a boat that even comes close to looking like a 49er in the eyes of the public. What other boat looks like a Moth foiler?

How many Moth foilers are there in existence at present and how widespread is the class... some 32 only made it to Worlds? Perhaps there's a lesson in there for you about reality?

As to visual power on the screen... Aerialist skiers throw a pretty nice visual for the cameras in the Olympics, but they could be oh-so-much more telegenic if they would only attach pyro packs to their skis when making their runs. Somehow, I don't think the IOC is going to allow that little addition just to provide a more visual enterprise on the mountain. X-Games,maybe. Olympics, no. A much more conservative bunch in the latter group.

The sport is supposed to have common man relevance in the sport from which it originates. That also would put the squeeze on the Moth foilers as they just haven;t got the penetration numbers in the world of sailing to make them pertinent. (Don't ask me how Curling got to the heights it has achieved. Inside schmoozing at its finest, I suspect)

Mothies will have to stand in the same practical, as well as political, light when the committees and the IOC have the final say so.

If it's something you feel is truly important, you better get your ducks assembled on the International political front if you ever expect to have a chance. Oh.... and bring lots and lots of money.

Any guesses as to how much might have been spent to get the Oly sailboard rig changed... and then the bid to provide the rigs and boards won? That's huge money. More than all the foilers in the world could assemble. But, I wish them luck.

CT 249

08-05-2006, 08:28 PM

That is absolutely and completely irrelevant to the discussion, but the Mothies are infinitely more sophisticated boat handlers. A couple of seasons in Moths seems to significantly improve most sailors results when they go back to the conventional craft.

Could there not be some other influences there? Cross-training in itself seems to be very valuable, so the fact that you gain from sailing a certain class doesn't mean that the sailors in that class are infinitely better in their understanding; it's the cross-training itself.

Moths certainly teach you an enormous amount, but are the sailors actually infinitely more sophisticated?? I suppose it depends on your definition of "sophisticated". The top Laser sailors would spend far more time working on the niceties of boathandling than the Mothies, I'm pretty damn sure, because even in the pre-Olympic days getting to the top required you to spend more time on the water than it did in Moths (comparing say Steve Shimeld's winning worlds lead-up to Bourkey's). Having a pro coach whistling each time you touch the rudder for a few hours a week is a fairly demanding way to train.

One similar example could be the fact that Andy MacDougall (Moth worlds runner-up in a skiff, foiler sailor, designer of Rohan's sails) says that he only really learned to sail Moth well after he learned to windsurf (on the original long and heavy Windsurfer One Design) because that really taught him to think about the forces. A recent 18' Skiff "Worlds" runner-up brought up the same point the other day. However, while they vouch for the way Windsurfers improves your understanding of the basic forces, the top Windsurfer One Design sailors are certainly NOT infinitely better at boathandling that the Laser sailors; in the same way the multi 18' skiff world champ (another boathandling class, surely) in our Laser fleet is certainly not a particularly sophisticated boathandler. The smaller size of the "hard to handle" classes may mean that you get a great grounding in the forces involved, but rarely work quite as hard at polishing the last degree.

I may point out that I've only spent 6 months as a specialist Laser sailor, and a couple of seasons since tinkering with them occasionally.

frosh

08-06-2006, 05:45 PM

Olympic sailing classes must be chosen on a basis that the class represents significantly large fleets in many diverse countries of the world, apart from other considerations, some obvious and some not. (money?)
Failing that as per the 49er the high performance skiff type (but of absolute necessity strict one-design) was highly representative of a general type that has become much more popular than prior to 1976 when the relatively conservative ( by todays standards) 470 was introduced as an Olympic class.

This is an excerpt from US Sailing-Olympic Classes desbribing the 470:
An Olympic class boat since 1976, 470s are sailed today for both family recreation and superior competition by more than 30,000 sailors in 42 countries worldwide. The 470 is so popular that its annual World Cup event is considered one of sailing's major international regattas attended by sailors and spectators from around the world.

Very few if any dinghy classes introduced since the beginning of the 80's have achieved these sorts of numbers and probably never will unless there is a dramatic turn around in the sport.

As far as the 49er is concerned, it is described as a two person skiff in the official Olympic designation to differentiate it from the 470 which is either mens or womens two handed dinghy.

The 49er obviously will not achieve the fleet numbers of the 470 but does represent a type that has mainstream support.

Then we can consider the International Moth. 33 entries at the last worlds. More would have been welcome but that was it. It has few fleets worldwide, and most of those fleets are not active on a weekly basis, so the visual presence of the Moth on the water is extremely low. Also it is NOT representative of a type that has large mainstream support. The chances of Olympic selection of a one-design variant of the Moth will be negligible.

The 49er made it's debut at the Sydney 2000 games. Sailors around the globe must have been hoping that the potential spectacle of a much higher performance monohull in the games than had been previously seen, would have given dinghy sailing a much needed shot in the arm.
In Perth, Australia I awaited with keen anticipation, TV coverage of the sailing, especially the Aussie designed 49er. I was disappointed. I didn't see any. Maybe there were a few moments of highlights while I was asleep, I will never know now.

Doug Lord

08-16-2006, 10:42 AM

Excellent interview with Rohan Veal here:
Sailing ANarchy Innerview with Rohan Veal
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/innerview/2006/rohan_veal.php

Baronvonrort

08-16-2006, 12:02 PM

For the second year in a row the Brass Monkey Regatta has proven the foiling moth is no where near as fast as the hot air coming from Doug's computer.

Winds below 10 knots on both days and the moth performed no where near dougs (dogs?) performance claims.

The foils are tiny and the boats look good yet not much change from $20k.

wet feet

08-16-2006, 03:53 PM

The original title of this thread referred to a speed attained by a Moth.There has been some quibbling about the accuracy of the equipment used and the duration of the burst of speed.There have been numerous comments from people with deeply held beliefs both pro and anti foiling and Moths in general.There have been suggestions that eking a few hundredths of a knot extra from a boat makes for a better sailor than conceiving,developing and using a new dimension to traditional sailing.
My conclusion is that although these boats are comparitively few in number they have done more to attract attention than almost any other small boats ever.Even non-sailors gasp in amazement when shown photographs of them in action.I would like to congratulate the developers of the foiling systems for their vision and perseverance and look forward to seeing the next evolutionary steps.I sincerely hope the Moth class does not get drawn into the Olympic circus,if they want a foiler,let them consult the experts about designing something suitable and leave the Moth class to continue in its own way.In addition if anybody knows of a small boat,not sailboard,that can exceed 27.9 knots-please post the news on this forum.

Chris Ostlind

08-16-2006, 05:16 PM

If that's a challenge, you'll have to define small boat as your first responsibility. Just about everyone in boating I know recognizes sailboards as boats in the commonly held understanding. They displace water, someone rides on it, it's propelled by a sail and it has a keel form in the water. Conveniently excluding them is a shaky stance, in my opinion.

World speed titles include sailboards/windsurfers. Is it because they are so much faster and decidedly inconvenient in that regard?

As for a small boat that created the biggest, attention getting rush in history... My money would instantly go to the venerable Hobie 16 and the Moth Foiler is going to have to do some extremely big time sales numbers to come anywhere even close to the profound effect that H16's have had on the world of watersports, much less the awareness of the public at large. After all these years of being out in the boating world, the H16 is still in production and now there have been nearly 250,000 of them sold worldwide. Only the Sunfish is in that category (at less than half the price)

Here's the challenge Wetfeet... walk up to a pefect stranger and ask them if they've heard of a Foiling Moth and then ask them if they've heard of a Hobie Cat. If it suits you, ask a hundred strangers that question. That's the chasm one has to leap in order to get anywhere like the awareness you suggest.

Foilers do hava coolness factor that is undeniable. No doubt about that, but in this modern world of ever-changing tastes and buzz, that's a long way from the long legged value of the H16.

Lot's of work ahead, wouldn't you say?

Chris

Doug Lord

08-16-2006, 05:27 PM

Here is where you can find the actual facts as to the conditions and results; see others including post #125:
2006 Squaddy Brass Monkey Regatta - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36909&pid=838487&st=100&
--------------
Race one-less than 2 knot drifter
Race two-less than 2 knot drifter
Race Three- 5-8knots
Race Four- 5-8 knots
This information from one of the organizers of the event-hardly 10 knots as claimed in a previous post.
The only Moth entered in Division Three -that I could find- finished last behind the OK dinghy. Anyone that knows ANYTHING about the foiler Moth knows that it is much ,much faster than this when sailed well in conditions suitable for foiling. In fact, under the Australian rating system the Moth is shown to be faster than the Division Three winner -an IC. The winner was Phil Stevenson in a brand new IC that he had just built and designed-he is a Moth Foiler sailor as well and I congratulate him.
From what I can tell none of the experienced guys in Foiler Moths were present at this regatta and probably would have faired poorly in the first two races if they had been there. Even though a foiler Moth can fly in 7-8 knots of wind and stay up in lighter with the most experienced foilers sailing it these conditions would have been marginal for the best the class has. Perhaps in the future as the skill level and numbers improve the class may do better in light conditions. In 8-15 with both boats sailed by experienced sailors the Moth will beat almost any boat under 20'-monohull or cat....
And this is still only the begining in what is possible sailing on just two foils: there are new,easier to sail, lower wind take off, bigger , faster foilers on the way-it's just a matter of time. All thanks to the pioneers in the Moth class that started the revolution...
----------------
A new Prowler or Bladerider foiler sells for around $14,000 but you can build one with pro foils and a pro rig for about $7,000......

wet feet

08-16-2006, 05:42 PM

I didn't challenge anybody to anything and I am sure that if I walked up to a hundred strangers and asked them whether they had heard of a Hobie cat or a foiling Moth the answer would be no to both in every case.Out of interest Chris,which small boat, or indeed board, that you have sailed looks like exceeding 27.9knots?As for numbers of boats produced as any kind of indicator,I would suggest that it indicates how successful the salesmen have been at getting their products into beachside resorts rather than serving as a guide to the inherent merits of a particular design.Given the fitness,which would be more fun a Sunfish or a Musto skiff?

CT 249

08-16-2006, 07:49 PM

Wet Feet, about "although these boats are comparitively few in number they have done more to attract attention than almost any other small boats ever."

They' ve attracted much less attention than other classes. The early Hobies were seen in high-rating TV ads and in mass media; the Sunfish was a cover story in "Life" or "Time" mag when it was one of the most popular media in the USA (sort of like having a high-rating TV special all about a class would be). The Laser's success was so great that it got people like Harvard University and business mags to get Ian Bruce and Bruce Kirby to give interviews and speeches. The televised Grand Prix 18 Foot Skiff series in Australia was said to out-rate the cricket, the national sport, when it was shown in the lunch break of Test matches. To bring in boards, the early Windsurfer was subject of multi-page stories in things like Australia's best-selling magazine, in the '80s Robby Naish was rated 3rd best-known sportsman among German youth and the World Cup at Schevinengen used to get 250,000 live spectators. I can recall a windsurfer race with 7 TV helicopters overhead.....rather more than a Moth regatta gets.

The Moth's publicity, while great, isn't at that level.

"Even non-sailors gasp in amazement when shown photographs of them in action."

The query is, does that actually help the sport? As Foilr said here, the evidence is that publicity and performance does NOT increase popularity. ISAF or YA surveys show that people are turned off sailing because they think it's expensive, elitist and difficult. Laser US did surveys and found people thought boats were too complicated and tippy. "Boring" and "slow" were NOT problems.

When the public thinks the problem with sailing is that it's elitist, expensive, difficult, tippy and complicated, it's hard to see how showing off an elite, expensive, difficult, tippy and complicated boat will keep bringing new people into the sport.

People gasp at a guy looping a windsurfer on flat water, or double-looping in the surf....and windsurfing is about 5% as popular as it was when boards were big and heavy and the sport was more about sailing in 10 knots with your friends. There's a lesson there and it's been repeated all the way through the history of small-craft sailing, from the Canoes of the 1880s onwards to today. It's funny but some people who accuse others of rigid thinking are so fixated on the "performance=popularity" idea that they can't even open their minds up enough to look at 120 years of facts and try to learn from them.

That's NOT saying the Moth foiler isn't great, it's fantastic, it IS saying that looking at complicated fast craft as the way forward and putting the spotlight on them may not actually be helping the sport significantly.

As one good Mothie said on the subject...."Just to give you an example I sailed in the 94/95 Moth Worlds on Lake Macquarie in NSW (won by Emmett Lazich) there was about 95 boats for the Worlds and 75 for the Nationals the week before. (This was about the time when the pocket luff sails, TFoils and all carbon everything became the norm. ) NSW was considered a stong hold of the class and had huge fleets racing at several clubs.
Ten years later the Nationals were sailed at the same venue and struggled to get 30 boats. A foiler Moth may be a great boat but it reduces the number of people that can and want to sail in the Moth class."

One might add that the proportion of leading-edge boats was higher in the first regatta mentioned - in the later regatta many of the boats were old skiffs or ply Scows, without the move back to Scows the fleet would have been even smaller.

"Given the fitness,which would be more fun a Sunfish or a Musto skiff?"

For most people, the Sunfish. I sail a singlehander about as fast and hard to sail as a Musto....even most experienced sailors can't keep it right way up for too long in gusty conditions. I really wish I could persuade my mates to get one so I'd have someone to race - but they try it, fall in, zip around, fall in, and say "that was great but no thanks". These are experienced sailors in a warm climate, with backgrounds like Youth Worlds on boards, Flying Dutchmen etc, and they think the fast but tippy boat isn't enough fun to be worth the bother of owning it.

If that's what most experienced sailors think (and they do, that's why there are more Lasers and Ents than Mustos and 14s) then why would the general public prefer a Musto?

The fact that a boat designed as a beach toy is easy to sail is surely one of THE most important "inherent merits of a design"......which is not to say the foiler isn't great, but it is to say that surely it's unfair to say a good stable boat is inferior as a design. A Sunfish does what it's meant to do (work as a mess-around beach toy) bloody well.

If we say the Sunfish only does well because of marketing, there seems to be the doublethink that's been seen a bit here. One hand some people shout loudly about the publicity the Moth gets and how that will help sell the sport, on the other hand they complain that other classes only succeed because they are marketed better. If all the publicity you spoke about ISN'T marketing the Moth, what use is it? If it IS marketing the Moth, why aren't more people buying?

As for the 27.9 knots question....maybe 15 or more? Oh, and all of those types (bar one or two one designs) have shrunk badly because they worried more about going fast than about budgets and being practical to sail. There's a lesson there.

If only we didn't have to fight the mistaken assumption that performance+publicity = popularity, then maybe we could put our heads together and work out how to grow the sport, both Sunfish AND foiler.

Chris Ostlind

08-16-2006, 09:15 PM

WetFeet,

Let's go through this one thing at a time.

"I didn't challenge anybody to anything and I am sure that if I walked up to a hundred strangers and asked them whether they had heard of a Hobie cat or a foiling Moth the answer would be no to both in every case."

Well, you can see it any way you want, but this next quote looks suspiciously like a challenge to me. From your first post... "In addition if anybody knows of a small boat, not sailboard, that can exceed 27.9 knots-please post the news on this forum."

There's an air of, "if you think you can do better...", about this type of statement along with the stuff that preceded it and it has challenge written all over it.

As to the man in the street, random survey suggestion... You've got to be kidding. Nobody in your entire community has ever heard of Hobie cat as the defacto, generic name for a fast, fun, colorful twin hulled lifestyle boat? The Hobie franchise is so popular and so long lived that it's in the same league as the use of Kleenex for facial tissue descriptors or Coke for any cola flavored soft drink.

"Chris, which small boat, or indeed board, that you have sailed looks like exceeding 27.9knots?"

What, exactly, does that have to do with the discussion? And for that matter, did you ever decide on a definition of small boat? Personally, I don't have a lot of gush for singly fast boats anymore, so the challenge there is pretty moot for me. I do enjoy the odd sail where the boat can evidence some measure of power, but it doesn't hold a lot of magic in my eyes in the same way it obviously does for you. I can appreciate that it can be done without finding it compelling on a personal level.

"As for numbers of boats produced as any kind of indicator would suggest that it indicates how successful the salesmen have been at getting their products into beachside resorts rather than serving as a guide to the inherent merits of a particular design."

You're out and out sure of that are you? Pure salesmanship drove one quarter million Hobie buyers, screaming, into their local marina dealerships, demanding to toss money at a boat they didn't want or couldn't figure out how to sail? And that is lasted for the past 25+ years? Really, you think that?

The H16 is an icon in the marine business as a model of efficiency of design, intuitive market positioning and an unmistakable lifestyle element as a beach culture product. You don't get sales numbers like that for a multi-thousand dollar product without it having huge amounts of perceived value for the buyers. Salesman didn't drive the beach cat energy, beach lifestyle sailors did that all on their own. And it's still going. Why, with all the thousands of used boats out there in the world, would anyone still want to buy a new H16 if it were simply salesmanship?

"Given the fitness, which would be more fun a Sunfish or a Musto skiff?"

If I'm at the beach with my favorite little kids, it's Sunfish all the way. I wouldn't go near a complex, fast boat. Hey, you asked.

Don't ever ask a question in an argument, to which you don't already know the answer.

RHough

08-16-2006, 10:18 PM

RHough

08-16-2006, 10:21 PM

My conclusion is that although these boats are comparitively few in number they have done more to attract attention than almost any other small boats ever. Even non-sailors gasp in amazement when shown photographs of them in action.

Is that kind of like clowns on uni-cycles attracting attention to a circus? :?:

frosh

08-16-2006, 10:55 PM

Well here we go again! There can be no argument that Moth numbers have dropped dramatically over the last 20 years. Numbers in club fleets and numbers at National and World titles are the plain evidence which cannot be manipulated (not even by someone as talented at this as Doug).

QUOTE from CT249:
That's NOT saying the Moth foiler isn't great, it's fantastic, it IS saying that looking at complicated fast craft as the way forward and putting the spotlight on them may not actually be helping the sport significantly.

It has been said before in various ways, but the rush to win races leading to narrow hulls and later hydrofoils has irreparably damaged the Moth Class as an almost iconic widely accessible single hander (in Australia at least).

As far as the success of the Hobie 16, apart from the story as presented by C. Ostlind this class spawned a whole culture of surfcats and a huge industry with dozens of manufacturers building a variant of a surf cat.

Background:
With its legendary design and induction into the Sailing Hall of Fame, the Hobie 16 is truly in a class of its own. Thirty years of racing and going stronger than ever.

Powerful enough to challenge veteran sailors yet easy enough for beginners, the Hobie 16 is the perfect all-around cat. Asymmetrical hulls eliminate the need for dagger boards. This makes for easy launching and beaching.

The Hobie 16... the ultimate one design class.

Having said that I do not foresee the demise of the Moth Class anytime soon, but it highly elitist and not as it used to be when Dad would build one for his son in the garage for a few hundred dollars, and it would be competitive, and able to be sailed by two lightweights for fun as well.

Doug Lord

08-17-2006, 01:47 PM

Check out Rohans comments on boatdesign.net and this thread. Also talks about his view of the Moth Foiler:
Rohan Veal - Home Page
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/home.html Changed:2:05 AM on Thursday, August 17, 2006
----------------------------
The Moth Foiler is one hell of a great boat in and of itself but I think the fact that it has shown that a two foil monohull system is practical will wind up- over time- being it's greatest legacy.
It IS definitely possible to improve on ease of sailing, early take off, variable sized foils,retractable foils and many aspects of monofoiling that are not addressable under the Moth rules.

Paul B

08-17-2006, 02:46 PM

Check out Rohans comments on boatdesign.net and this thread.

This IS Boatdesign.net

frosh

08-17-2006, 03:52 PM

----------------------------

It IS definitely possible to improve on ease of sailing, early take off, variable sized foils,retractable foils and many aspects of monofoiling that are not addressable under the Moth rules.

Doug which Moth rule specifically disallows the design in a monofoil format to be made easy to sail. I take this to mean in relation to the experienced dinghy sailor, who sails high performance boats but of more usual dimensions; say length to beam ratio of 3.

Is it the length restriction, 11 feet?
Is it the maximum sail area, 8 sq. m?
Is it the banning of multihulls?
Is it the banning of lead keels?
I'm not sure about this last one. Would one of you forum members with more knowledge of the current International Moth rules clear this one up?

Doug Lord

08-17-2006, 04:22 PM

Sam, the rule against buoyancy pods; see the UK forum "Is this a trimaran?" where several experienced Mothies comment on how buoyancy pods would definitely help the beginner. I know this from my own experience on sailing one of my experimental tri's whose "ama's" were nothing more than buoyancy pods with about one cu. ft. of buoyancy four feet from the cl and whose main hull beam to length ratio was about 12/1-a bit narrower than a Moth. Without those pods I couldn't have sailed the boat-and probably wouldn't have tried.
Pods could still be used in the Moth class to get beginners foiling sooner if for no other reason than to hold their interest-and they could be removable and variable in size. New boats such as the M4 and aeroSKIFF14 have pods designed as part of the boat.
In my opinion, this is one of the most important ingredients in a Peoples Foiler: ease of sailing when not on foils-it's already easier to sail a Moth on foils than it is to sail as a lowrider from a stability perspective.
Pods work....
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Moth Buoyancy Pods
Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/IsthisamothSP.htm Changed:9:18 AM on Friday, January 24, 2003
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aeroSKIFF 14 Design
--Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5297&d=1141571544
attachment.php?attachmentid=5298&d=1141571544
--Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5298&d=1141571544
--------------------
M4 Prototype
Address:http://www.sailm4.co.uk/ Changed:4:42 PM on Thursday, August 17, 2006

Paul B

08-17-2006, 04:31 PM

New boats such as the M4 and aeroSKIFF14...

There is no such thing as an aeroSkiff 14.

foilr

08-17-2006, 07:22 PM

From http://www.moth-sailing.org/rules_interpretations.html
A. Wing Buoyancy - There is no limitation to the amount, type or shape of buoyancy contained in the wings, trampolines or wing tubes of an International Moth (other than that defined in rule 6.3.i), however the boat must NOT be sailed with the wing bar floatation on the waters surface for more than is required to stabilise the boat back to a vertical position, otherwise this is in breach of rule 6.3.i.

Full rules are here (http://www.moth-sailing.org/download/IMCA_Rules06.pdf).

There is no rule against bouyancy pods. Please understand that the Moth rules are open class rules. Unless something is explicitly outlawed, it is legal.

You are free to put bouyancy pods on a Moth. No Moth sailors like to make alterations to their boats to make them go slower, hence nobody sails with bouyancy pods.

Doug Lord

08-17-2006, 08:23 PM

Scott, the point of buoyancy pods was not to make any of the boats mentioned above faster or slower: it was to make them easier to sail! And time and again in almost all the literature on the subject the extreme difficulty of sailing a Moth in seahugger mode is repeated ad infinitum. Removable buoyancy pods seem to me like one hell of a good idea to get people into foiling a lot sooner than they would if they had to master the seahugger mode first without them.
Have you ever sailed with buoyancy pods on a Moth or a boat with a similar main hull beam/length ratio?
--------------------------------------
The UK site as referenced in my previous post has much more on this:
----------
As to the rules, according to the UK site:Rule 6.3i states: "Catamaran or multihull configurations are prohibited. Sailing any type of permitted hull design consistently as a catamaran or multihull is also prohibited."
-------------------------------------
Comments(excerpted):
--editor: "Moths with mini hulls at the tips will be much easier to sail and greatly reduce the skill differential between those who can balance their narrow hulls and those who can't."
--David Balkwill- "pods give advantage.."
--Andy Paterson"... so it helps the less skilled and so is beneficial for the class as whole." So perhaps'trainer' wings/floats allowed....but a limit on buoyancy or size for the experienced helms. Calling them trainer or 'Fairy- wings' might also discourage their use! I think there has been not much development of floaty things because it doesn't benefit the front of the fleet-and it is of benefit in a very limited range of conditions-mostly v light winds and sloppy waves."
--Doug Pybus-UK presidents view: "I personally believe that Freddy's boat is illegal...I think Freddy has stepped outside the rules. The key line in the rules is:"catamaran or multihull configurations are prohibited." FREDDY'S BOAT HAS THREE HULLS AND IS THEREFORE=A TRIMARAN=A MULTIHULL."
-- Nigel Oswald,ex UK Champions view: "I totaly agree with you that this may not be what the class wants and tht if someone took the next step and produced hull shaped wings then you would have grounds to protest."
======================================
So almost EVERYONE thinks it would help beginers and they are not alone. Those of us that have actually used them KNOW they would! Now,the previous discussion took place several years ago and despite diligent searching I can find no other reference to this discussion in Moth literature; maybe Foilr knows what was finally decided and where to find more info?
Despite the legality or not of buoyancy pods it seems that they could be a major aid to introduce people to foiling on any foiler designed similarly to the Moth, aeroSKIFF14, or M4.