Forum Rules / Code of Conduct

[Jeff]

I would be interested in feedback on or suggestions for the following preliminary proposal for Forum Rules.

1.) Keep threads & posts on topic. 1a.) New threads must be on topic based on the forum title. A thread in the Boat Design forum must be about boat design.

1b.) Respect the original poster of each thread – replies should be on topic with the original post in a thread. Replies must not derail or disrupt the thread discussion based on the original post. Otherwise, start a new thread of your own. (It is ok for threads to evolve as the discussion progresses, but a thread about keel design is no place for a post about American politics.)

1c.) Posts in any but the open discussion forum must be substantive to the forum and/or topic at hand. A little humor is ok, but only in the context of on-topic ideas or information. Posts should not be made that contain only a sarcastic jab or humorous remark with no new information or ideas.

1d.) Language should be professional and understandable and must be in English as this is the only language which the moderator can moderate.

1e.) No duplicate or cross-posting.

1f.) When starting a new thread, please use a descriptive title. As a thread title, "help me" is not very helpful to others quickly scanning the new posts of the day to see which threads they are able to offer helpful advice. (note post titles are fully optional within the thread; when starting a new thread however, please enter a short but descriptive title.)
The initial consequence of breaking the above rules is that the offending posts will be deleted at the descretion of the moderator(s). Repeatedly breaking the above rules will lead to the termination of your login and being banned from the forum permanently at the descretion of the moderator(s) If you see a member breaking these rules as a habit, please report an offending post by clicking the report post icon http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/images/buttons/report.gif.


2.) Conduct must be conducive to sharing ideas and information 2a.) It is never acceptable to insult or attack other members. Disagreement is healthy and beneficial to intelligent discussion but should be based always on ideas and factual information and never degenerate to a personal attack or insult.

2b.) Assuming the identity of another person without their express consent (identity theft) is not allowed under any circumstance.
A violation of the above may lead to the immediate termination of your login and being banned from the forum permanently at the descretion of the moderator(s). More than one violation will mean the termination of your login and permanent banning from the forum without discussion. If you believe a post constitues an attack against you or other violation, you are always welcome to report this using the "report post" icon on the top right of each post http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/images/buttons/report.gif.

[RHough]

Sounds pretty good.

My thought is that the thread starter "owns" the thread. If the thread starter does not have a problem with topic wander, there is no need for you to moderate it. Some posters are more sensitive than others. some threads live on after the thread starter has gone. We'll soon get a feel for who's threads are narrowly focused and who welcomes a bit of bird-walking.

As far as person attacks and insults are concerned, some posts might seem to require a moderator intervention when no one is offended. This is a tough one. If I were to post "xxx, you silly fool, any idiot knows that cast iron sinks!" would that be an attack or insult? If my relationship with xxx was friendly and we would not be offended in person talking to each other in that tone, then no harm done?

The problem I see is that friendly jibes/teasing taken at face value could lead a new poster to assume that the language and manner are normal and allowed.

The question is, who is to judge if the post is out of line? The offended party? Anyone that finds the tone out of line? Only the moderator?

If action is limited to posts that get forwarded to you, it relieves you of the responsibility to read and judge content of every post. If it is assumed that all posts are monitored and one slips the moderator's attention, the cries of bias and favouritism will soon follow. We all need to be aware that you are in one time zone and the other 95% of the world doesn't share it. Some posts won't be seen by the moderator for hours, we should not expect 24/7/365 moderation. We have to give you plenty of time to react.

How about a notice if someone complains about a post before action is taken? It will be easy for you to see who gets the most complaints and also who complains the most. In your place I would make it clear that anyone that requires moderation more than once or twice is not welcome. Perhaps a 3 strikes and you're out rule? Your time should not be wasted dealing with either repeated out of line posters or chronic thin-skinned post police.

What ever you decide, create as little work for yourself as possible. Moderating a forum this size could become a full time job. :eek:

I think this is a good start. FWIW, I'm behind you 100% (At least until someone turns one of my posts in ... then I'll blame that damn drunken dog of mine for using my log-in!) :D

[Guillermo]

Jeff,
I support your proposal 100%
Even if you have not the time to supervise all posts, or the judging of them may prove tricky, at least it's a rule and everybody in the Forum will know that if his/her behaviour is not correct he/she may be banned.
As it happens in every community some rules must exist, because this is not Utopia. These forums cannot be a jungle or they will continue on losing valuable posters and keeping only the 'wise guys'. A real waste of your magnificent effort.
All the best.

[Jeff]

The problem I see is that friendly jibes/teasing taken at face value could lead a new poster to assume that the language and manner are normal and allowed.

The question is, who is to judge if the post is out of line? The offended party? Anyone that finds the tone out of line? Only the moderator?

If action is limited to posts that get forwarded to you, it relieves you of the responsibility to read and judge content of every post. If it is assumed that all posts are monitored and one slips the moderator's attention, the cries of bias and favouritism will soon follow.
That's a great point - a few members with rather hot tempers have also contributed some great content to the site over the years, so I tend to hesitate to act too often. As you say, the first step is to post clear forum rules and a code of conduct so it is clear what the community expects from its members. Next is to make it clear that members should report posts or let the moderator(s) know any time they are uncomfortable with or offended by a post, or any time they feel a poster is devaluing the forum. On one hand, I realize this is an extra burden to the members as well, but it is enormously helpful to have reports about problem posts when taking action or sending warnings to problem-members about their conduct.

[Wellydeckhand]

Jeff,

U mentioned about the content should be about boat design, what if the thread about something to do with boat but not actually the boat? Like about Marina and facilities or the sailors hobbies or complaint or even destination and minute obscure discussion of the secret life of boater and custom lifestyle and culture? Would it be hard to filter?

What about the smilies should be bane right? I mean I used the smileys and my mom thought i was not serious writting email for her.............., we dont see each other face in the forum, smilies can kill seriousness.

The poster should state their mean of conduct when post..... example: ( Pls post serious answer ) or ( hell boys let shout this question ok? ) would it help to define what the poster want before ahand?


Thanks,



Wellydeckhand

[Jeff]

U mentioned about the content should be about boat design, what if the thread about something to do with boat but not actually the boat? Like about Marina and facilities or the sailors hobbies or complaint or even destination and minute obscure discussion of the secret life of boater and custom lifestyle and culture? Would it be hard to filter?Good question - I would propose that topics that are not on-topic for any of the focused forums should go in "Open Discussion" (and have now adjusted the title of the open discussion forum accordingly to read: Introduce yourself, enjoy friendly conversation with other forum members, and a place for threads that don't fit in any of the other forums.

The poster should state their mean of conduct when post..... example: ( Pls post serious answer ) or ( hell boys let shout this question ok? ) would it help to define what the poster want before ahand?
What I propose is that the main forums remain serious and on topic, and the Open Discussion forum is the place for humor, friendly banter, etc. Thus in any but the Open Discussion forum, please take "Pls post serious answer" to be the default, understood post unless it's stated otherwise. Not that a little humor is a problem in the main forums (and in fact I love the fact that people have fun here and that there is a sense of community, friendship, etc.), but any and all posts in the main forums should contain serious content and not only humor or short off-topic quips.

One of the great things about this site is that it has allowed many amateurs and yacht designers just starting out to post questions, sketches of their ideas, and project ideas and get feedback from those more experienced yacht designers who take the time to share their expertise here. This is really a great asset, and what I don't want to happen is for the professional designers, builders, and naval architects to take a look at the forums and say to themselves "these people are just goofing around and wasting my time--I'll spend my time on a more professional site." Thus I want to keep the main forums and threads on-topic and focused on content and ideas.

[safewalrus]

Jeff

Whilst I'm with you most of the way on this (it's after all your baby) I would point out that - yes I'm possibly hotheaded and shoot from the hip as it were, but there have been a couple of occasions when people have asked for advice in cases where, as an ex proffesional seaman of some 37 years (not much experience then?!) I see something which if carried out, will probably cause harm and danger to either the perpatrator or someone close by! In that case I SHALL, if I continue to subscribe to this forum (doubtful) tell them in no uncertain terms (wether they like it or not) that the activity could cause harm! I cannot and will not stand idly by and watch! neither should anyone else! And if information is requested your 'thinskins' should gladly take all they receive! As I said, other than that, You seem to have it about right and I will stand by you as long as I continue to subscibe (incidentally due to heavy workload I will be logging on less, and answering even less in future, this was in the pipeline, our 'friend' 'Tanned a***' only expedited the move!

regards

Mike (the Walrus)

[MikeJohns]

Jeff
As I posted on Wills thread this Sounds to me to be the best solution.
I guess time will tell.

As for the Hotheads.... we can all bend a little and a little is all it takes to make things work.

[Willallison]

It's never quite as simple as "Welcome. and now that you're here just talk about boats" is it!
The business of introducing humour to a thread is a grey area that can only really be dealt with in a subjective way. Nine times out of ten we all benefit from it. I can't think how many times the original participants of the Option One threads took one-line shots at each other (me included). But they were all given and taken in the good-humoured way in which they were intended.
I think it would be a shame to simply ban one-line funny replies - so long as they're not offensive.
The answer - as suggested by others - might be for you to only consider those that either you find offensive, or out of place. And more importantly to ask that other members make a note of such posts in some kind of "complaints box".

As far as smilies go, I don't think there should be any suggestion of banning them. They often help to emphasize the intent of the poster

As always, thanks Jeff....

[Vega]

[LEFT]I would be interested in feedback on or suggestions for the following preliminary proposal for Forum Rules.

1.) Keep threads & posts on topic.[INDENT] 1a.) New threads must be on topic based on the forum title. A thread in the Boat Design forum must be about boat design.

.........More than three violations will mean the termination of your login and being banned from the forum permanently.



It looks to me that a lot of people post (without intention) threads in the Design forum that don't belong there.

Three violations and be banned for a thing that is not intentional and that can happen along several years (I mean the wrong posts), is it not a bit too much?

Take some examples of recent threads in the design forum that perhaps should not have been posted there (a matter of opinion):

"Naval Architect Not Qualified to Drive Boat! "
"designers;what kind of boats do you have?"
"Harley Emblem"
"What the heck did I see?"
"Sponberg Yacht Design temporarily off-line"

Please don't see this as a critic to the thread "owners", I mean only that this issue , if not intentional, doesn't deserve (in my opinion) such a big punition.

Keep up with the good work;)

Paulo

[DanishBagger]

It looks to me that a lot of people post (without intention) threads in the Design forum that don't belong there.

Three violations and be banned for a thing that is not intentional and that can happen along several years (I mean the wrong posts), is it not a bit too much?

Take some examples of recent threads in the design forum that perhaps should not have been posted there (a matter of opinion):

"Naval Architect Not Qualified to Drive Boat! "
"designers;what kind of boats do you have?"
"Harley Emblem"
"What the heck did I see?"
"Sponberg Yacht Design temporarily off-line"

Please don't see this as a critic to the thread "owners", I mean only that this issue , if not intentional, doesn't deserve (in my opinion) such a big punition.

Keep up with the good work;)

Paulo

Very true, I don't either believe that that will work in practice. Noone can escape slipping up once in a while.

How about can result in a temporary or, at the worst, a permanent ban?

Otherwise, it seems we will all eventually be permanently banned.

[DanishBagger]

One more thought:

What constitutes "an insult"?

What if I went (in a suitable thread, of course):

"Gees, I hate motorboaters, they really have no clue, do they" thinking about how they always seem to "drive" their boats way too fast in the harbour, playing loud music and not.

And somebody goes:

"WTH, I own a motorboat, you can't go around generelising like that!!"

*End of Andre at this place*


Also: the double posting:

Sometimes, my ISP screws up, meaning that two packets are send. meaning I didn't do it on purpose that would be strike one, out of three. Heck, I already did that, meaning, in theory I have two strikes left.

[Jeff]

Good points - thank you - and revised accordingly.

[DanishBagger]

Cool, seems fair now, imo :)

[Oyster]

And then there seems to just be flamers, spoken in the name of "warnings" for one and all. Dealing with this issue here, and several other open format forums, its pretty easy to deal with this single issue on boat related forums for me. Log off. It has nothing to do with being thinned skinned, and all about how I choose to spend my free time. While there are many ways to accomplish the same thing, there are ways to express them without being called an idiot, too. I have tried this gathering twice, and seems that some of the same ones from multiple years ago, are still expressing their warnings in the same manner, with less than civility than others.

We must understand that thats just the way it is for a lot of folks. Some use the expression of being "passionate" as an excuse. While there are a lot of good stuff floating around, a fair amount of reading, sometimes, is required to find it. Some of us have less time than others to do this, with jigs and hulls requiring most avaliable moments, and do not have that extra time on our hands. Now back to your regular programs.

[gonzo]

This was an excellent set of rules. The "stay on topic" issue has become more and more of a problem. Seems that a few of posters are cluttering many threads with off-topic issues. I agree that the original poster's topic should be the guiding line for content.

[Jeff]

These rules are now in effect with a link posted in the footer of every page. Thank you to all who contributed ideas and gave feedback.

[Guillermo]

Jeff,
Some late posts have disappeared from this thread and others :confused:

[DanishBagger]

Jeff,
Some late posts have disappeared from this thread :confused:


Guillermo - they were moved to the "Reputation" thread - it also caused us a lot of confusion at the time.

Personally, I felt like an idjit (as you can read in that thread):p

Edit:

Direct link: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11086&page=8

[Jeff]

Yes, sorry I should have put a note in this thread as well that I had moved the reputation posts over to the reputatino thread. But I like to keep you all on your toes :D

[VKRUE]

Jeff:
I haven't been around this forum site all that long but, I have found this to be a great place to search for information and to talk / converse with others about the building & restoration of boats.

What you've got here is a great site.

When I first found this site, I had no idea exactly how or where (which catagory) to ask my inititial question. It wasn't until several replies and more questions later that I realized the more proper method of proposing my questions.
(I didn't even see "the rules") My mistake, but honestly not intentional. According to your updated rules I should be banned already.
So sad... I am only just learning.

Please, :!: understand that I am not being cocky or sarcastic.

Many good points have been exposed though, especially those by "RHough".
Also, can't remember who pointed it out but, "we can not see eachothers faces / expressions", so some comments will no doubt be understood by some or most and yet still be misunderstood by others.

I myself have experienced this and at first was offended but as I read more of the posts / replies from this particular person I came to understand that this was just his way of being himself and that there more than likely was no harm intended. I could not appreciate seeing this person being repremanded or banned for simply being himself.

As my title indicates; Great ideas and intentions... but the policing and JUDGING of what may or may not be offenses is no doubt going to be a real load, mostly of stress.
This alone could easily cause a deterioration of your own patience and tolerence.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, so shall ye also be judged".
Jesus

Would suggest more thought and imput to be considered.

Would like to think that some kind of a merit or ranking system would be more appropriete than a "3 strikes and your out".

VKRUE

[Wellydeckhand]

Howdie guys,

I am not happy:(, I am not trying to get attention but people do give comment why they giv bad rep. A guy gave me bad rep because he is invisible and think a playful button will not kill me......... it just make me wonder? WHAT IS WRONG???

I was grateful Mr Kjell used real money and time to send postage and CD of his program to me ........ this side of the earth!!! I felt I need to openly express thank you and notice that I have received his package. Do I need to open a open discussion thread to say that? or get the active thread started by him with the same topic........ Hull and his beautiful program?

I know some guys dont like me because I am Asian........... I can prove it. the thread of Kjell have Gilly post a similar content but spared but me............ I was given the blow.( sorry Gilly ).

I just want to know if this is a professional forum how come the new guys have the power to play trick? I asume the older folk is professional.

I am not crazy over my rep, but pls consider before u do that then if you need to give bad rep, dont forget to leave a comment!!!!!!!! @#$#%$$#%

Mentally, I trying to do a good think by behaving but stalking is a bad thing. This show hatred for me............. I thinK

:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

I think if a guy dont like me you can use the BL@@dy PM for your enjoyment.


WellyPissedOff

[Vega]

When I first found this site, I had no idea exactly how or where (which catagory) to ask my inititial question. It wasn't until several replies and more questions later that I realized the more proper method of proposing my questions.[/FONT]
(I didn't even see "the rules") My mistake, but honestly not intentional. According to your updated rules I should be banned already.[/FONT]
So sad... I am only just learning.



"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, so shall ye also be judged".
Jesus


Would suggest more thought and imput to be considered.

Would like to think that some kind of a merit or ranking system would be more appropriete than a "3 strikes and your out".

VKRUE

Hello!

I agree and I have already said that. I think that Jeff agrees too.

I have been here for about a year and with the exception of a Lady that used the forum for a money scam, I have seen nobody banned. And that is remarkable on tolerance.
About that system that you talk: "(I) Would suggest more thought and imput to be considered. (I) Would like to think that some kind of a merit or ranking system would be more appropriete than a "3 strikes and your out""
That system exists and it is called reputation (on the top right side of each post, you can vote on the interest of the post and your judgment will have an influence on the total "reputation" of that person.

This is an open merit system, Of course, for that you have to judge and every time you post, you submit yourself to public judgment :p

I don't know yet if the thing works or not, (I have my doubts and critics) but it is better than to be judged by one guy or a clique.

About the reputation, I have seen a guy with -80 and not banned (a Chinese guy that wants to sell his boats). That’s all right with me:D and I have seen that everybody is doing all right, I mean, nobody bellow the initial 10 that you got.

About Welly and his concern with bad reputation points. I don't agree with his proposal of justifying the interest you see (or not) in a post . If people have to justify that, there would be a lot of inhibition in a thing that should be natural (the measure of the interest of posts, giving posters a feedback on the interest that the forum has on them ).

But I agree with Welly on one thing: the REPUTATION word is inadequate. I agree with him that it is not nice to receive "bad reputation points". It seems to me that that word should be replaced by something like "INTEREST". That way you having negative points would mean, as it should, that the forum did not find that post interesting, excluding other possible negative connotations.
It would have another advantage. That way would not contribute to mislead people about the technical competence of the poster. A person with reputation on a Design Forum should mean that he is a knowledgeable person on that area.

As I have pointed out, I do consider inappropriate and misleading that people a lot more knowledgeable than me have lower reputation points.

So, please Jeff, consider the alteration of that word, for a more appropriated one.

[gonzo]

Reputation is the correct word. In the forum, as on the rest of life situations, reputation depends as much on what you do as in how people percieve you.
Wellydeckhand: There may be people that don't like you because you are Asian. However, this reminds me of all the whining so many broadcast because someone doesn't like them. Have you considered they may not like you because of who you are?

[DanishBagger]

Well Gonzo - had it been Welly making a statement like that someone would have taken points from him.

And, much more important, what you say is exactly the reason that this system sucks big time.

All the arguments against it has been that it should not be a matter of cliqueing, it shouldn't be a matter of whether you like the person or not, but what the person contribute (and in this case, what we don't).

Your very nice argument on how this thing should be perceived is the very reason it's a crappy system. The reason is, that you, amongst others, target the ones you do not like, for whatever reason you deem justifiable, claiming that that is how it is in the real world as well.

I don't know your age, but high school stopped a long time ago for me, and with that, popularity contests and bullying stopped at the same time. In _my_ real world, people, colleagues and what not, still talk and respect eachother, and there are very few jabs at one another, and it certainly isn't tolerated when it happens.

Now, your argument is that the system is good because that's how it is in the real world - well, I'm thankful I'm not working the same place as you.

Edit: I see you have already taking a point from him. How splendid, Gonzo. Do you also call co-workers whiners when they open their mouth against you and your colleagues when you make him spend a lot of time taken crap from you guys?

[DanishBagger]

Gonzo,

On another note - tolerance can be taught, so even if you don't like Welly, you might want to take a hard look at yourself, and consider why you have no tolerance to that end.

In my experience, people that go around beating others (both literally and metaphorically) and whatnot because they "Just don't like them", are the ones that have the problem.

[Vega]

Reputation is the correct word.

Perhaps “bad reputation” has another meaning in the U.S.. Around here a guy with bad reputation is close to be a criminal. “Bad reputation” has a very strong meaning and has a lot of negative connotations, nothing like uninteresting.

Have you considered they may not like you because of who you are?

You are a man of strong words. Can't you rephrase this in a more adequate manner? Is really this that you want to say?
I don’t know Welly well enough to judge him for what he is and I doubt that anybody in this forum has that kind of personal information. Sometimes I don’t like his style, or I don’t agree with him, but that is a long way to a personal judgement of character (it has nothing to do with it).

[Guillermo]

But I agree with Welly on one thing: the REPUTATION word is inadequate. I agree with him that it is not nice to receive "bad reputation points". It seems to me that that word should be replaced by something like "INTEREST". That way you having negative points would mean, as it should, that the forum did not find that post interesting, excluding other possible negative connotations.
It would have another advantage. That way would not contribute to mislead people about the technical competence of the poster. A person with reputation on a Design Forum should mean that he is a knowledgeable person on that area.

As I have pointed out, I do consider inappropriate and misleading that people a lot more knowledgeable than me have lower reputation points.

So, please Jeff, consider the alteration of that word, for a more appropriated one.

Bravo, Paulo!

[gonzo]

What I mean is that the dislike may have nothing to do with race. Perhaps I am really fed up with the use of race to explain any dislike or disagreements instead of considering other facts. However, if he has proof of discrimination, posting it would be useful. Then we could see if his claims are true.


Reputation, good or bad, is affected by everyone. It is so in this forum and elsewhere. Changing its name won't make a difference in the way people percieve it. For example, a poster with overwhelming bad input would get a bad reputation even if we call it feedback or something else

[DanishBagger]

Ah, like that, Gonzo.

However, there's a difference is acting on how you perceive people, "punish" them and so forth, and then just live and let live. Of course, none of us like everybody, but in my world there's a hell of a long way from that to bullying, exclusion and what have we from the not-so-nice box.

[gonzo]

I can see how it could be abused. Also, you mention bullying. Yes, some members, or groups of, could use it to exclude someone they don't approve of without a valid reason.

[DanishBagger]

Erm, taking "reputation" from someone, simply because you don't like them is akin to bullying, in that you diminish him "in public", and in time the bloke/girl will be out and away.

Most likely, you were the one that took the latest point from Welly, and it certainly couldn't have been because it was off topic, and especially considering your remark, it's obvious it was because you are of the opinion that he's/we're whining. And we can't have anyone that just doesn't like being chosen as the one to pick on ...

[Jeff]

I can see how it could be abused. Also, you mention bullying. Yes, some members, or groups of, could use it to exclude someone they don't approve of without a valid reason.It would take a group, as one person would not be able to noticably change the reputation points of another without appearing on my radar - note that no singe person has given Welly two reputation votes to date. Some have said it's too restrictive in not allowing you to up or down vote the same person without first giving reputation to 15 other people, but that was put in place just for this reason.

[Wellydeckhand]

Ok, I will bite the bullet, it seem I am not haunted by a group of people........ Thanks, I was gang thrashed by a group of people for 3 X a night when I was younger, that why the feeling just kept creeping up. Sorry on my part.Back on Prozac

[SailDesign]

Maybe the bottom line here is that it is an imperfect system, but none of us can think of a better one. These things happen (look at US politics :)) and we learn to deal with them and live within their often strange little vagaries.
Steve "waxing lyrical"

[antonfourie]

I think that the system works quite well, seen as it is only for Jeff to be able to determine whether to take action on someone or not why should anyone be so concerned about their reputation, I am sure that poeple know who gives good advice as I am sure that they can all read, they would also know who to avoid without having to resort to looking at the reputation points.

[DanishBagger]

I have to say one thing about this system, and the "new" rules/code of conduct:

Although most people by now know my position on it, there is one good thing coming out of it.

All this discussion makes at least myself think about the hows and whys of interacting with people, what I don't like about too strict rules (they're not "too strict" around here), how egotistical some people are, and some are not. I like that - seeing both types of people coming out of hiding, to weigh their morals and arguments against eachother.

Even though things like this easily turns ugly, in some strange way I find it almost beautiful.

[Wellydeckhand]

Yeh, when a person who dont know stare at you, you can evade but cant get the feeling why he stare? It is the clothes? Apearance? His movement or simply he is out of place............. But if a person is told hei ! dont do that because they feel uncomfortable, then it give a chance for the person to adjust.............. pure simple and civilized.:)

[Sean Herron]

:p Hello...

Personally - I think you (the Jeff person..:p ) has built up a great site - maintaining same and perhaps now you are looking towards its own future - that is a bloody good thing - you offered up your creation to the public and now you must decide what public you want to focus on - again...

As with many companies and other that come to the point of internal question and review against their own growth - AND CONGRATULATIONS THAT YOU HAVE - BRILLIANT JOB - no pun intended - I think you need to RELAX and get yourself a comfortable chair in which to sit, drink, smoke (whatever) and observe your model which IS VERY MUCH 'floating upon the pond '- you have done a brilliant job - TAKE A VACATION MAN...:p

Hell - that is all I will say just now - surprise, surprise...

And cheers DanishBagger - you are plain correct - it is beautiful - it is what we fought for and believe in...

GREAT JOB - 'Jeff' - whoever the hell you are...;)

F'it - I think we need a 'pot' - the Jeff vacation pot - I think this bastard deserves a break and our money towards same - but if he pisses off - all hell may break loose on this site and I will see to it...:p

Jeff - how may we fund your vacation - SERIOUSLY...

I will not be getting same this year...

For that matter I want SD to explain 'vagaries'...:p for I think he is ducking behind a 'Vagarie' bush and thus missing out on my crazy assed open pin CO2 powered pink paint balls - burp...:p

I think what has begun here is a good 'begunning' (no pun 'gun' again) and same is an obvious effort to the public - but same can manipulate opinion thru bias and SD holds true here - there is no perfect model and yet same is worth further discussion as this site holds VERY strong and represents market share in its premise aganst a non government, a public, and non military or professional navy model...

Cripes - if you think about it - this 'Jeff' man deserves a GREAT BIG SLOBBERING HUG - good maintenance - good forethought - good 'room' for the men and women of the small and still private boat building industries...

I am so pathetic - I will pour my whiskey into a TEAM PLAYER mug - 'got to a handle on my drinking'...

CHEERS ALL ...

SH.

[Vega]

:p Hello...

Personally - I think you (the Jeff person..:p ) has built up a great site - maintaining same and perhaps now you are looking towards its own future - that is a bloody good thing - you offered up your creation to the public and now you must decide what public you want to focus on - again...


SH.

Sean, I am curious can you tell me in what thread you got the bad reputation points?

I have not seen anything offensive in your posts, or really out of contest. Perhaps now we can get bad reputation points on a matter of opinion, or just because people doesn't like your smiling face, or by mistake :P

Humor me please, go to the user CP and tell me about it.

[SeaSpark]

I gave him a bad rep because if he really thinks this forum is so great, and Jeff such a great person he should help the forum by posting usefull information. Not by sending Jeff on a vaction (which he deserves).

I remembered reading some posts by him that were not contributing to the quality of the forum (the point of "Forum Rules / Code of Conduct" thread is about improving quality). Can't remember the exact words i used in the comment with the rep.

Looked up some more posts by Sean, some were helpfull, so i will give him a positive rep. as soon as i am allowed again (have to spead some more).

[Frosty]

What brought all this on any way?.. Some one put the wrong thread in the wrong place?--Oh dear--Oopps sarcasm!! (is that allowed now). That will always happen. I think I can manage around that problem. New comers dont know. Bullying , slagging people off well thats a disucusion isnt it? Im a great believer in "if it iant broke dont fix it". This is one of the best well run forums I know of and Ive always thought that most participants were gentlemen like, But so what were all grown men arent we>
It seems every day of my life I am being told of more rules.

[Vega]

:p Hello...


As with many companies and other that come to the point of internal question and review against their own growth - AND CONGRATULATIONS THAT YOU HAVE - BRILLIANT JOB - no pun intended - I think you need to RELAX and get yourself a comfortable chair in which to sit, drink, smoke (whatever) and observe your model which IS VERY MUCH 'floating upon the pond '- you have done a brilliant job - TAKE A VACATION MAN...:p

Jeff - how may we fund your vacation - SERIOUSLY...


CHEERS ALL ...

SH.

I gave him a bad rep because if he really thinks this forum is so great, and Jeff such a great person he should help the forum by posting usefull information. Not by sending Jeff on a vaction (which he deserves).



Nice to come forward. :)

I guess that you have misunderstood Sean:confused: , even if I agree that he has a “scattered focus”:D

I think that he was just talking about money, asking Jeff how the hell he can maintain this site running and suggesting that we will gladly contribute to the overall costs....and it is in this contest that he says :

“Jeff - how may we fund your vacation - SERIOUSLY...”

About the Jeff vacation, it looks like he has taken one.... about it, I have to say two things:

1- How well did this forum behave without any Jeff intervention (great forum, great people).

2 -I don’t know if Jeff vacation was accidental or intentional, any way I have to say that it is a lot more difficult to run things with very little intervention, providing greater freedom than ruling things with a lot of rules and little freedom. And this forum seems to be running smoothly and appears to be of good health.

A hell of a job, Jeff, even when taking vacations:p

[Wellydeckhand]

Yeh..... I dont see Jeff posting and giving insight to particular thread anymore, maybe REAL gold watch vacation or just mad at us? I missed him but I am straight ok.......... :)

WDH

[Frosty]

Oh hes there alright, he probably doesnt want to participate in this conversation any more , Hes probably thinking the same as me!!!!

[DanishBagger]

Hmm, yet you respond, Jack ;)

[Wellydeckhand]

Oh hes there alright, he probably doesnt want to participate in this conversation any more , Hes probably thinking the same as me!!!!

WoW, a moderator actually mimic you, thinking the same way? I am honored to meet with Mr. JackFrost............. :eek: :D :eek:

[SeaSpark]

Sean, sorry if i was a bit trigger happy!

asking Jeff how the hell he can maintain this site running and suggesting that we will gladly contribute to the overall costs

The best contribution we can make is posting useful information. Large amounts of expensive bandwidth and server capacity are wasted by people browsing through useless posts. Not to mention the proffesionals leaving the forum. The value of the forum grows with the quality of the information it contains.

Have heard nothing about problems funding the forum. If there are, i guess many regular visitors would not mind donating some money.

[Vega]

Dear Forum,

I am Welly Sumanteri from Indonesia, I used the ID Wellydeckhand before but was banned, so I used now ID Wellyframed.

I dont feel guilty so here I am again. I contribute maybe too fast or the content not to forum liking? I was told I was banned because of SID NIXON article.

I have help him and show him this forum as he didnt know it . He logged on with his cell phone and email address to the ID. How can now the forum think that I was SID NIXON and kicked my ass?

I know I have not talk to SID NIXON because we are no longer can do business as I am doing on my own on Traditional boat making....... maybe he is scared that I offer good wooden boat at cheaper price?

SID always bragg the work of his wonderful 90ft cabbage yachts and have build the worldest greatest aluminium facilities....... he is experience but why use a low cut method to get back for stupid like me? Well his 63 and getting childish anyway.

I am still young and will have a lot to surface in this boat business although this is just my side line.

I hope the mess would be clear and my name will be straight.

I dont want mistake done by telling bad backstabbing lies just to get me kicked out

WDH

Welly, you have been posting this post on several threads.

It looks to me that you should not do that, but post it in the right place, that it is here:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11083&page=4

About the post, I have not the slightest idea of what are you talking about.

You have been banned? What Sid Nixon Article are you talking about? Why have you been banned?

You should explain things better because this way nobody will understand anything.

PS: I have seen that as wellydeckhand you still have 36 reputation points. If you were banned you should have negative reputation points. Are you sure you have been banned?

[Jeff]

Impersonating another person using their name and email without their consent is grounds for being permanently banned from the forum. We received a complaint from a third party that wellydeckhand had impersonated this third party posting under their name and email address without their consent.
I have help him and show him this forum as he didnt know it . He logged on with his cell phone and email address to the ID. How can now the forum think that I was SID NIXON and kicked my ass?
Sid Nixon emailed using the email in his profile and testified that he never visited this site nor posted the 15 posts under his username. Upon inspection, they came from the same IP address that you, wellydeckhand, used to post dozens of posts from so the above does not seem to hold water. The fact that you posted under multiple identities before and had conversations with yourself obviously does not help your case.

[Frosty]

Oh for chists sake, let people say what they want to say. Its a forum isnt it. If you dont like them then dont open thier post. Whats the big deal. Welly obviously loves this forum,-- enthusiastic at times,-- Ok but so what, I dont see what harm he does. Dont look then!!!

Gonzo submits engineering facts that are incorrect, there are other participants who have told him so, yet he does not submit web sites or what ever to prove himself . yet insists on others to do so.
He calls welly a winner,-- Oh boy

This is a good Forum and I like it, leave the bloody thing as it is and dont ban people because of well what?? who the hell is Sid Nixon any way.

Well thats me banned then,---If I am then this is not a forum. Ok take away my measly 16 points. I studied 6 years at technical colledge and had a Rolls Royce apprenticeship. My last job was --- oh well never mind. 17 points a bloody insult.
.

[marshmat]

OK then.... shall we all just start behaving like adults again?

[Frosty]

Words of wisdom --thank you,--I think we are Marshmat. What I am against is acting like children. Banning people ---well .

There are people on this forum that reply in a short arrogant fashion, like I know what I am doing.-And there are others who are full of fun and enthusiasm. I respect both of their right to be here.
My dislike for some encourages me to log on every day to see what utter BS they have come out with today. What crazy questions have been asked.--- Infact when I think about it I log on to see more of that than anything else.

[SailDesign]

Jack,
I think the problem is not with folks acting like children and getting cranky (which we all do from time to time...) but with people impersonating others, which is immoral and illegal in most cases (but not fattening).
Banning someone for illegal behaviour would seem like a no-brainer.
Also remember - this is Jeff's private forum. He does not HAVE to live by any rules but his own. I'm sure there are aspects of behaviour exhibited by the denizens here that he disapproves of, but allows to happen because the mjority of his visitors (we are not clients, BTW) prefer it that way.
Jeff's methods of moderation have so far resulted in a pleasant environment for most and by most, with the occasional fruit-cake or twit sounding off. That they are allowed to continue posting is due to Jeff's kindness. Impersonation is a different thing altogether.
Steve

[Vega]

Oh for chists sake, let people say what they want to say. Its a forum isnt it. If you dont like them then dont open thier post. Whats the big deal. Welly obviously loves this forum,-- enthusiastic at times,-- Ok but so what, I dont see what harm he does. Dont look then!!!
.........
This is a good Forum and I like it, leave the bloody thing as it is and dont ban people because of well what?? who the hell is Sid Nixon any way.


I like Welly, I mean, with him this forum opened up and people all over the world started to post more frequently and in a less restricted way. But the problem here is not what Welly says, but what he has said impersonating another person (according to Jeff) and not an imaginary one, but a real person, who happens to be a boat designer and boat builder.

That seems rather strange even for Welly and I hope Jeff has given him all the possibilities to explain the situation, but if this is really true, it should not be taken lightly.

Anyway I would like to hear what Welly has to say to these accusations (if Jeff permits). Of course this is Jeff’s forum and he said that he has checked the IP from Sid Nixon and from Welly and that it was the same IP....and that seems hard to explain.

But all this is very sad....Welly, I would really like to understand this situation :(

[gonzo]

Jack Frost: can you post some of engineering facts that you claim I posted and are wrong? That someone else, like you claim are wrong doesn't make them so. Seems like all the complains about rules always come from people with bad manners and that routinely make unfounded claims; often against other posters. There are rules to keep this a marine forum and to prevent libel. Also, my website is on my information, all you have to do is click on my name on any post.

[SheetWise]

I agree with Vega. While every venue needs the occasional jester -- treading on the reputation of a real person is beyond the pale. Adding to this the previous, and somewhat public censure for treading on the reputation of a fictional foil -- Welly seems intent on maintaining a one man disquisition.

On the other hand -- and aside from the alleged harm to Mr. Nixon -- there should be a way to harness Wellys enthusiasm, assuming he's back on his meds ;)

Perhaps as an antithesis to reputation points, moderator may encumber the offenders account with the avitar of a jester -- just to ensure that visitors and those unaware of the embroglio are forewarned.

[Lyle Creffield]

Hi

I am new to this forum but find generally it is a very good forum

It is most important to be clear in what we say and leave the emotion out

Cultural sensitivity is important with a global service like this one

satisfied user

lyle

[Frosty]

It is most important to be clear in what we say and leave emotion out--- This is not easy, Some people are emotional we are all different--what I say or Welly says may seem like a nut to some. Probably of a different culture. Some post are by people who are actually communicating in English although there mother tongue is not.
I have read some posts with my head in my hands trying to understand what on earth are they talking about. A quick glance to the top right indicates these people are English speakers. Such as #54 What does 'not fattening' mean in this context? What is a no-brainer? (chuckling) I honestly dont know!!
I only hope that Jeff did give Welly a reaonable ammount of lee way to put his point forward, and I hope he was not banned simlply due to his inability to sufficiently answer the questions put to him and not due only to his inability to comminicate in a language that his not his own.

[Admin]

Just to be clear, the only reason Welly was banned is because we got a complaint threatening legal action because a person said they had been impersonated by welly.

Back in 1998-2000 when the registration options were set software developers were not as aware of online identity theft, fraud, etc. being threats for non-critical software applications, so when you registered for the forum you were simply asked for your name and email and they were taken at face value. This allowed someone for example to signup as "jack frost" and enter jackfrost@yourisp.com for the email address and it would simply be accepted and you're off and running - convenient and efficient, but no verification. In this case (the first ever of its kind for us) we first got a complaint that the person wanted to know why they were getting emails from our site. I explained it was because they had posted in x, y, and z topics and under their UserCP had "instant email notification" set as the default preference to be notified when others replied. I was quite surprised to get a reply back where the person stated that they had never visited our site nor had they ever posted those topics/replies and further demanding that they be removed immediately as they had not posted them. They were posted under their username and email, so at first I didn't know what to make of it. Upon inspection however, the IP used to post those posts was the same IP used by wellydeckhand to post dozens of posts on the forum here. Combine this with the fact that wellydeckhand has previously created multiple identies and had discussions with himself using aliases here on the forums, and it appears it has simply gone over the line here impersonating a real person who did not like it. Finally, in response to being banned instead of contacting the moderator/webmaster with his side of the story refuting the evidence, the response was to create yet another forum identity and post off-topic complaints in a number of other threads which itself is against the rules.

Registration now requires the email address entered to be verified before new accounts are activated, so while it adds a couple of minutes and an extra step, at least someone can no longer signup by forging someone elses email address.

[Frosty]

Mmmm well I guess so. I thank you for taking the time to explain. Could it not be posible to ask welly to compile a return e mail to you in his best English and to take a few days to get it right.
He could then address the accusations made against him as apparantly he claims he was framed.
You could even ask him to pay special attention to various points especially the ip address confusion.
You could site that, and let us all see what he says. You could perhaps explain that he has but one chance. It is quite likely--sadly-- he could incriminate himself giving you 'the forum' a safer and more sound platform. However it would be interesting reading not to mention giving the man a decent trial.

[Texas Boater]

Amen, Brother.:p

Incredible idea and the changes are 100% on track.

Great proposal.

Too many folks seem to feel if they do not have anything intelligent to contribute, then its okay to add insulting opinion!:rolleyes:

[SailDesign]

Jack,
Just to take you off tenterhooks, the "fattening" reference was from "Everything in life worth doing is either illegal, immoral or fattening". Don't ask for attribution, but I THINK it was Mae West. If it wasn't, it could have been... :)
Steve

[SAQuestor]

Mmmm well I guess so. I thank you for taking the time to explain. Could it not be posible to ask welly to compile a return e mail to you in his best English and to take a few days to get it right.
He could then address the accusations made against him as apparantly he claims he was framed.
You could even ask him to pay special attention to various points especially the ip address confusion.
You could site that, and let us all see what he says. You could perhaps explain that he has but one chance. It is quite likely--sadly-- he could incriminate himself giving you 'the forum' a safer and more sound platform. However it would be interesting reading not to mention giving the man a decent trial.

Jack,

I must disagree with you on this point. I manage several internet forums similar to this one - though admitedly not as large and diverse - and when there has been any issue I give the individual one warning and if the behaviour continues then they are kicked and banned.

The reasoning is that one individual - no matter their level of expertise - that disrupts orderly and civil information exchange is not worth the effort to have "a trial" and all the attendend disruption it causes.

Quite simply there are rules of civil discourse that this or any other forum have and if one - or several - individuals can't or won't abide by them then the majority suffer some level of communication disruption. It matters not whether we choose to read that individual's posts or not - they are there providing at the least, a distraction to the other members and a PITA for the administrators.

"Admin" in post #60 of this thread went far beyond what I would consider 'normal' practice and explained exactly what went on. IP fraud evidence is indisputable - at least from my point of view - and that explanation should be the end of the question of whether it was appropriate or not for the administration of this forum to ban an individual or not.

Best,

Leo

[Vega]

Jack,

I must disagree with you on this point

The reasoning is that one individual - no matter their level of expertise - that disrupts orderly and civil information exchange is not worth the effort to have "a trial" and all the attendend disruption it causes.

"Admin" in post #60 of this thread went far beyond what I would consider 'normal' practice and explained exactly what went on. IP fraud evidence is indisputable - at least from my point of view - and that explanation should be the end of the question of whether it was appropriate or not for the administration of this forum to ban an individual or not.
Best,
Leo

Yes, I agree with you and I think that this is up to Jeff and should not be addressed publicly, but I agree also with jack when he says:


I thank you for taking the time to explain. Could it not be posible to ask welly to compile a return e mail to you in his best English and to take a few days to get it right. He could then address the accusations made against him as apparently he claims he was framed. You could even ask him to pay special attention to various points especially the ip address confusion.

And the reason why I think that Jeff should ask Welly to explain (privately) this situation to him is:

Welly was accused and, even if all evidence points to being guilty, he could not defend himself.

Welly was a positive contributor to this forum, with a positive reputation.

Welly seemed to me naïve beyond redemption, but not stupid.

Impersonating a person, giving his real e-mail, knowing that that person would receive an "instant email notification" for each post, is utterly stupid.

Welly says that he knows Sid Nixon, and he says:”I have help him and show him this forum as he didn’t know it .”

I guess that it seems plausibly that Welly with that overenthusiastic naivety was thinking he was doing Sid Nixon a favor, giving him exposition on this forum. It doesn’t seem plausible to me that some kind of agreement was not done by Sid Nixon, authorizing Welly to post in his name (why should Welly give information to Sid Nixon on what he was doing, sending him” instant email notifications"?).

Welly says that his relation with Sid Nixon had gone sour and that he was being “framed”.

Of course, all this is crazy stuff, but we already knew that Welly is a little bit crazy. However he loved this forum with devotion, his reputation shows that he has contributed positively to it and I will bet that any of us would have a very warm welcome, should we show up at Welly’s neighborhood.

I will understand Jeff if he thinks that Welly is just too much trouble to have around, even if he can show that he, in his naivety, has been “framed”. It is evident that he has done things the wrong way. But I doubt that he has had any intention of doing Sid Nixon or this forum any harm (on the contrary) and I have also doubts that he knew how to do better, in what regards defending himself.

Best regards to all

Paulo

[Frosty]

[
I guess that it seems plausibly that Welly with that overenthusiastic naivety was thinking he was doing Sid Nixon a favor, giving him exposition on this forum. It doesn’t seem plausible to me that some kind of agreement was not done by Sid Nixon, authorizing Welly to post in his name (why should Welly give information to Sid Nixon on what he was doing, sending him” instant email notifications"?).

Are you saying that it could be that Sid Nixon allowed Welly to post in his name. I am sure welly would have obliged. And then thier relations went sour. Sid then called the Forum to complain, Knowing that this would result in Welly bieng banned ? And framed. Apparantly from reading between the lines they seem to be in competition with each other.
The e mail notification in that case would have meant that Sid and Welly must have shared the same e mail address at that time for Sid to have recieved notification,--from the forum?--- as he said he did.

Anyhow, would this explain the ip address being that of Wellies?
I am in no way saying or suggesting that this is so, but is this senario technically possible.

If the real story is only half as complcated as the above Welly would not be able to explain.

I wonder how Welly feels today. I would immagine he will be pretty well dissapointed with westerners.

[JunkBoatDesign]

Yes,

LOCAL POLITICS:

1. Welly and Sid knew each other and welly open his big mouth about the forum. Sid got interested but not really fond of the computer but will use it. Welly taught sid some advance computer usesage.

2. Welly and sid frequent enter site (forum) together, welly show sid the forum operation.

3. Sid leaves his number and email just incase old friends like to call him.
He ask welly to scan and post the old australian newspaper to post in the net.(if not where he get the data? why has sid not call the cops?)

6. Sid 63 yrs old builded only one 90ft boat and wanted to write his biograhy and expose himself of his existence.

7. Sid and welly found Royke in this forum, ask the fellow to fly over after offically leaving the job of jewellery designing in Surabaya ( check his ip on that) official letter between welly and royke with reference to work with sid nixon.

8. sid started to politic and screw Lawrance( drinking customer) infront of welly, The dutch was insulted and welly help and sid not happy.

9. Then The greece, Ellis (local bos of townsville welding)lost his job because sid nixon backstab statement on ellis to the Expat from Asap welding equipment and lost the distributing right. Sid ask welly to take the agent but refused. Welly confide the matter to ellis.

10. welly paid for the airfare and living expense of royke and sid refuse to meet or discuss with the boy saying he just dont need it anymore. leaving welly taking all the bills and reponsibility.

11. welly went to the bar and took back his 60 inch tv from sid and say bye2 with reminding sid of chonology of his bad ways the way he gossip and do bad on his customer.

12. Sid went mad. he wrote to the forum and complaint to the moderator.

Understand this, I myself use welly facilities, as he offer us his bandwith. The computer terminal here is 6 computer with his buddy using it for positive purposes.

His interest in boat have been spark by the purchase of a shipyard 3 years ago.His main business is not boat building.

I know all this information due to his good grace of computing time.

I dont think welly need to take up anybody reputation especially a 63 yrs old guy who already have problem over here. He is more a barmaid than a builder, his a loftman but not a designer or N.A.

One thing for sure, conflict would inflict the same reputation wound on both side in this matter for welly and sid.

He can log in and will try internet cafe. But I rather put some light into the matter and asked his permission to post some letter between royke and welly to prove that sid know welly and welly did some help to him.

I know it is hard to trust an Asian over an expat anytime of the days.

This result from sour relationship I guess. If both knew each other and the account for sid hold unchallange for a period while aready exposing Sid contact, can that be a complain?

I am sure the administrator can fin that sid have logged in that account in past history, can that be a crime when both have done this?

I am not exposing my identity for the sake of my stay in Balikpapan.

Hope this help both side. The truth really doesnt help as welly already banned, welly just think that his friends would think less of him so I help.

You can still reached him at his email wellydeckhand@yahoo.co.id for further explanation. I did this with welly knowing please confirm with him. Oh well, here goes my reputation and might be bane also.



Junk

P.S. welly have a website underconstruction and thinking of setting up a forum for boatdesign. I just think he is crazy:)

[JunkBoatDesign]

I think he quit drinking and enrolled in westlawn, welly if you see this wish you good luck:)

Junk Friend

[DanishBagger]

I think he quit drinking and enrolled in westlawn, welly if you see this wish you good luck:)

Junk Friend

Hi there, Junk bd.

Just to put my mind at ease - I was/am a friend of Welly - how did you obtain those mails between them - they aren't forwarded, so I was just wondering.

Gees, I hope this is true, that he was framed, and not that he posed as dix :(

[antonfourie]

Perhaps one needs to ask how many ID's does welly actually have ?, last time I checked it was about 5 !!

[stevel]

Hi there, Junk bd.

Just to put my mind at ease - I was/am a friend of Welly - how did you obtain those mails between them - they aren't forwarded, so I was just wondering.

Gees, I hope this is true, that he was framed, and not that he posed as dix :(

I find it incredibly hard to believe that those letters are not an invention of Wellydeckhand/Mayfly/H20Babies/Mayfly again/Wellyframed/JunkD/and any other imaginary friends that they may have.

Tell me who else actually conducts genuine business (like hiring a person) using their forum/chatroom screen name? Maybe this is just my ignorance and intolerance of non-western ways?

If you look at Welly's earliest posts, they were generally about making jokes and stirring the pot. He generally didn't cross any lines that I would be bothered by and I found him somewhat entertaining. His avatar was a gas mask, odd again, but funny in a way. When the forum started discussing the feeling of sume that this sort of posting was cluttering things up for people who wanted to find the serious content, he quit doing that, but accused the western world of having it is for him because he is Asian.

When that didn't get him enough attention or sympathy, he did his experiment with multiple personalities and more controversial avatars (and don't pretend to believe that he didn't know the Buhdist left-turning swastika would be controversial). When that got old he did the Sid Nixon thing (which came and went so fast that I never quite figured out what that one was). Then he did the WellyFramed think and I'm pretty sure that he did this last one too. Do you still care to try to figure this thing out, or is it time to just let the pattern of behavior speak for itself?

Mybe we should look at it this way. It is possible, however unlikely, that there was something legitimate in the origins of the Sid Nixon fiasco, but Welly brought on the suspicion himself by his earlier behavior. By now he should know better than to even start down that road after the Mayfly II fiasco. BTW, I can post pictures of anyone I want to in order to "prove that I exist." On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past Welly to have emailed in the Sid Nixon complaint himself, just to stir the pot.

[DanishBagger]

I guess, Steve and Anton.

Yes, I still do care to figure this one out. Past behaviour is not proof of future behaviour. Although, of course, the likeliness increases.

I like to know as much facts as possible before making a judgement.
I have a firm believe that even a former murderer isn't necessarily the person that killed my neighbour. Even if history does 'speak for itself.'

I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, knowing full well that I quite surely will be disappointed.

I figure that if he can give me a plausible explanation as to how he obtained those emails, and how come they used their nicks in a contractual email, I will most likely think that he might indeed have been framed. I have sent him an email this morning (UTC). I am hoping that the benefit of the doubt will actually be beneficial.

Although I have to say I don't have high hopes :(

[Vega]

On the other hand, I wouldn't put it past Welly to have emailed in the Sid Nixon complaint himself, just to stir the pot.

I think that it is too much, even for Welly:p :

[stevel]

DanishBagger,

It is your time to use as charitably as you choose. If Welly were to be imprisoned for the alleged misdeeds, I would be willing to put more of my own effort into getting to the bottom of it. Being banned from a forum where he doesn't seem to "get it" is not so severe that I would worry too much for him

Vega,

I suspect that that is going too far, even for Welly, but...

[gonzo]

junkboatdesign: what do you mean it is not easy to trust an Asian? You, like welly are really full of crap by calling all of us bigots. It wouldn't surprise me if you are welly in a different disguise. As I told welly in another thread, nobody knows where you are from unless you choose to advertise it.

[marshmat]

I'm starting to feel sorry for Jeff, having to deal with all this, tracking the IPs and such, figuring out who's who and who's lying. Glad you're keeping things together, J. :)

[JunkBoatDesign]

Gonzo, I am trying to be poliet as I have a cat too. But if anybody think that this guy sid nixon have a thing with welly and later drag him down knowing this will hurt him most. Welly promote quite well the exist of this forum to many local boat lover. Once welly is banned, his reputation in local will diminish according but the business will doubtfully uneffect.

U see internet false like this can be proven, if welly real picture and company profile appear and his private data, will that effect and change you all to believe him? or will he expose more danger to himself with nigerian banker sending more mails and lottery possiblitiy wins? Maybe a man in a suitcase with toys to hurt him after exposing his own picture.

I am his friends, I do not need the forum to believe he is framed, I just wants his friends to know, since he is so proud of them and keep having conversation circling the characters of those in the forum that have help and given attention when he need advise.

For the character ID I think, alot other could have double ID but play well and hide it without big suspicious. I cant say I know any of you, cause I am very new here.

Know this however, welly is sad but strong in his persude his need for boat design, but he owned it to his friends that had given him spirit of goodwill. He never did hate westerner. His sister married a German guy.

I know this getting boring, I do not earn anything but think welly had a bad day with sid and his dealing, and deserve his friends at least to not misunderstand him.

To me, I dont think the forum even know who sid anyway. Surely, I too wouldnt give a Dam_n about this affair if not welly's computer time and free beers before. I am not forced and the email was the PDF welly gave to me to show that Royke(designer) existed and the forum banned him also for nothing.

Hei, if anybody in the forum is from Balikpapan, it maybe a free banned of account for you. Thanks to sid nixon.

I am tired and need a beer

Junk

[JunkBoatDesign]

word of advise: for forum well being, this shouldnt be an open free forum but a paid fee forum with only one account for one pay under one company banner?

This way we can verify the motivation and intention base on their background. I think the forum is bigg enough to do this maybe like metal boat forum.

Well, I researching on new junk hull and possibility of new sail option for junk, will be quite and quit sooner than the forum think.

I like Indonesia because a lot of people like us dont dare to invest in this area, making v. less competition. So for those dont understand this forsake part of the world, I thanks thee for not knowing, I have peace and quiet.

Hei, Gonzo, where your info and biodata, wanna post some so I know you too? Will be interesting if you refuse.

junk

[marshmat]

Making this a paid-subscription forum would completely defeat its purpose and would almost certainly kill it instantly.
The Internet, by design and nature, is a place for free sharing of information. Yes, it has commercial uses, but to securely transfer something (say, money) over the Net requires horrendously elaborate security protocols that require several Ph.Ds to fully understand. Free sharing of information is what it's all about. Make people pay and they will leave.
Gonzo's info, bio and website are on his profile. Click his name to get there. Same goes for most of us. (Junk, I don't see anything at all on your profile?)

[JunkBoatDesign]

I am doing my research for my little boat and since I was in the right place and wrong time when all this sh!t hit the fan, so I thought maybe it is not a good way of showing who I am.

Maybe welly wrong , up to you to crucified him. I am happy to stick a toe not a leg into the matter. It seem welly have more enemy than friends in this good forum.

There are around 14,000 expats families in East-Kalimantan. I think I am not only guy from that community viewing this forum.

Junk

[antonfourie]

Welly is that you again as "JunkBoatDesign" this time ?

[JunkBoatDesign]

I can just imagine where u get all that 130 post, maybe by just posting where or who is welly anywhere.

If you doubt me send me an email and we log on webcam and have a good pleasant conversation.

I do not want to start a bad way during my stay in the forum trying to figure out junk design, Thank you.

Junk

Junk may derive from the dutch word Jung

[gonzo]

antonfourie: Seems like I am not the only one with the same suspision. The retoric is the same.

[safewalrus]

so Welly finally shot himself in the foot eh! Thought he might one day but hell I'm going to miss the fellah who ever he is calling himself these days! (Junkboat Charlie or whatever).

I do believe that his demise has a lesson for us all, no matter our views on his interesting version of English and his possible trust of others (who ever they may be)! But his demise seems plausable if badly done as does his many choices of names - maybe he could go off and open his own forum and talk to himself; that way the rest of us would get a break!! Supprisingly enough he did manage to produce some interesting and thought provoking stuff now and then!

As I said I'm going to miss him:p
hello Junkboat have you heard about my old friend Welly, forgot who he was supposed to be!:rolleyes:

[DanishBagger]

hehe, Wally :)

[JunkBoatDesign]

To my understanding, he sort of quit drinking, thats why I dont know his move in a way. An Indonesian worker of mine,commented that he had asked my draftman about design equipment for school, think his checking out rotring yesterday.

Well, he turn funny not coming to me directly, maybe he is ashame in a way, maybe guilty? I dont know.

Junk

[safewalrus]

Incidentally what's this garbage about Gonzo? Inaccurate information/ No way! Boring - yes! unneccesary - yes! over the top - yes! but I'll give the guy his due; I've never received any inaccurate information from him - he's bored the bloody pants off me with far to much info at times but it's never been inaccurate. Gonzo maintain your standards mate all your info IS legit! If you've ever been wrong 'tis not because you did it delibrately (if you've been fed garbage you can only give out garbage - but I think your to much of a professional to give out incorrect stuff - if your not sure you normally don't! On th other hand as I've said you can be bloody boring but that's you mate and I respect you for it!

best regards

Mike the Walrus

(JEESUS me being nice, sort of! best stop it! play havoc with my rep - er-tat-ion!

[Frosty]

If you not an engineer or mechanic you wont know! He obviously has had a lot of experience on mercruisers and the like. But there are times when his enthusiasm shall we say allows him to site inaccurate information. In 'Auto engine marinization" he claims that auto engines can not be properly marinised because of the requirement 80 thou ring gaps, as well as others. Infact posting proof is one thing that he demands from others, yet he apparantly himself does not think it necessary.
'Gonzo hath spoken" And that is the end of it!!

As a Mercruiser dealer I just thought that it would have been a simple matter to scan the manual at the appropriate page and post it. I would love to see it.

However, this is not the thread for this post ,Should any one need to reply Auto engine marinization is the place.

[gonzo]

It would be silly to claim I never make a mistake. However, if you point them out I have no problem correcting them.

[safewalrus]

Hang in there Gonzo!

Hey jackyboy, NO i'm not an engineer, wouldn't want to be thankee; but I know one thing I wouldn't put a car engine in a boat - sure you can marinise the damn thing with all yer clever dodads but it's still a car engine when all said and done and It wouldn't be exactly right! so you see in my book Gonzo HAS spoken and as usual he's right - when it comes to the technical stuff (wouldn't want to run an anchor with him till I knew him a bit better, nor point and becket a rope - but I wouldn't do that with you either till I knew you better - no offense meant but you see what I mean, and as far as the technical s..t I stick to Gonzo until someone proves otherwise - which I doubt, and Gonzo why the Hell am I sticking up for you - I don't do sticking up for people normally!! going soft in me old age?)

the Walrus

[Frosty]

Well,--- Yanmar has got it all wrong then,-- Boy are they making a big mistake. They actually in there foolisheness take the Toyota Lancruiser engine ,marinise it and sell it as a boat engine. This engine is being used to replace old gas motors such as mercruisers. It is one of the most popular engines in the 250hp range today. Jeees I had better phone then up and tell them thay cant do it!!!

[DanishBagger]

Is it just me, or has this thread gone way off-topic?

[Frosty]

Danish Bagger, Sir you are absalutely 100% correct. I did post before any one wishing to reply " auto engine marinisation"

[safewalrus]

OK fellas agree, way off my fault for sticking up for someone!

Won't do it again - stick up for people that is!

I will lie,

cheat

and generally be obnoxious, make of that what you will!

[DanishBagger]

Come on, Wally – it's me!

Stick up for everyone, that was not my point, I just thought that engine marinisation could be better off in another thread :)

[mvd535]

Dear Jeff,
I received Forum Rules / Code of Conduct text as advising.
Apparently this was caused because I did a big mistake answering and giving thanks to a member named TAD thinking that his answer at the forum was addressed to me. Topic was really the same, so I confused myself.
I am new member of this forum, just from today, so I am not 100% familiar with the forums webpage usage. Please receive my apology.
MVD535

[DanishBagger]

Welcome, MVD.

I don't think you need to apologise, though.

If you want the advising to stop, you can choose the "thread tools" while in this thread, and choose "unsubscribe".

[gonzo]

Well Safewalrus, if you are not gonna stick up for me, I want the bribe back. Seriously though, keeping the forum polite and mostly on-topic is what makes it a success.

[antonfourie]

Hear hear

[Frosty]

Can any one tell me why I have a V symbol at the side of my name?--Well i think it is a V. It always seems to be there. I was thinking it might be a secret mark by the Admin for 'ban pending' Like a 'one more stike and yer out' kinda thing?

[Admin]

If it is the image I just changed from a red "V" to a white circle, that indicates that in your usercp you have chosen to be invisible on the who's online list (and it only shows to you and the moderator(s)/forum admin(s) as different than the rest)

[safewalrus]

Danish your right - it is you and engine thingy is better of in engine thingy - the point I believe was...... er what was the point oh yes gonzo was being slagged for inacuracy, in my book that's got bugger all to do with engines! you can be inacurate for most anything - was just sticking up for the guy by stating that In my mind he was doing his best, which he was and is (and I've spent it gonzo so your not getting it back, 1 cent waern't much anyway as bribes go - well OK it's the best offer I've ever had, but there again I'm cheap!) something to do with the new spirit of friendliness that abounds in the world!

[DanishBagger]

Okay then. I see your point. But my post wasnt just to you, also to the other bloke(s). And, no, I usually don't go around policing, I just would prefer if this thread would stay open.

[Figgy]

Welly has done some questionable things in the past, but he brought something to the table.
I like it, we ban the dumb ones but keep the assholes. I understand why Jeff HAD to do it, I just hope Welly got a fair shake.
-Figgy

[VKRUE]

Hey, not trying to start trouble but, I thought that Wellydeckhand has been banned ! Have I missed something or what...:?: Welly has been back posting threads within the past several weeks or so... or is someone using the name of Wellydeckhand ?

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11993

#1 06-01-2006, 11:43 AM
Wellydeckhand
Banned Join Date: Jan 2006
Reputation: 36 Posts: 1,413
Location: Indonesia

Thomas E Colvin's Junk Rig Book

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anybody have this book by Thomas E Colvin and would like to sell please do no hesitate to email me wellydeckhand@yahoo.co.id or PM in this forum.

Condition from Mint to readable....... so is the price.

Books : Sailmaking: Making Chinese and other sails : sailing Chinese junks and junk-rigged vessels

Wellydeckhand

[Jeff]

He may be here using a different username and from a different ip subnet which is fine by me as long as no complaints result from the posts made under the new username; the posts you quoted under the wellydeckhand username above are dated from 06-01-2006 to 07-07-2006 unless I'm missing something however.

[antonfourie]

Another ID like westlawn5554X ?

[Figgy]

Thats what I thought, but after pm'ing him a few times, I believe its not. I DO believe they are from the same country though, where ever that is.

[westlawn5554X]

Another ID like westlawn5554X ?

You must personally hated wellydeckhand guy or you simply hate me as a new comer to the design world?

[DanishBagger]

oh, yes, Figgy, but being from the same country is fine by me, ha ha ;-)

[antonfourie]

You must personally hated wellydeckhand guy or you simply hate me as a new comer to the design world?

So who ever said that I hated WDH ? But that kind of response makes me wonder again if you are WDH ......

[Figgy]

You must personally hated wellydeckhand guy or you simply hate me as a new comer to the design world?

I wouldnt say "hated", but some were not fans of his.

[VKRUE]

And this one as late as :


http://boatdesign.net/forums/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 07-07-2006, 03:24 AM
http://boatdesign.net/forums/customavatars/avatar12574_9.gif (http://boatdesign.net/forums/member.php?u=12574)Wellydeckhand (http://boatdesign.net/forums/member.php?u=12574) http://boatdesign.net/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_95882", true);
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Reputation: 36 Posts: 1,413
Location: Indonesia


Anybody out there have an old copy?http://boatdesign.net/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[SeaSpark]

I have the impression our old friend Welly is still among us. And as usual using more than one account. Did not hate Welly but it starts to piss me off a bit that with every question posted by a new user i have to wonder "could this be him again?", "Is someone trying to get his work done by other people?"

Do not mind helping other people out but don't like helping someone trying to mislead me.

[westlawn5554X]

This must be the GHOSTBUSTER forum instead of BOATDESIGN forum by the fact it seem people feel ghostly about newcomer as a general. I dont mind people kick that guy ass, but I dont like out of a sudden my ID is used ok. Thanks I am back into the reading of this beautiful informative forum. My surname is Wei and yes I study in westlawn and thats I think is what I would like to write about myself for for the sake of study. Ok

[marshmat]

I don't think anyone hates you, 5554x, and I don't think anyone wants you gone. We don't hate newcomers so long as they don't cause trouble. I wouldn't be worried about such things so long as you remain a positive contributor to the forum. (Just curious, what's your native language? Your dialect of English looks like that of an Oriental-language speaker who has learned English as an additional language. Nice to have some non-Westerners around!)
What spark and others are ticked about, I think, is that we have in the past had problems with people posting under multiple usernames and using other people's logins. And we have the never-ending issue of "newbies" not searching the forum at all, and instead starting a new thread to ask a question that's been answered 50 times already. (Note to Jeff- does the forum software allow you to make the Search button larger/more obvious/more useful to the end user?) Clues like poor grammar, illogical syntax and the nature of many of these questions certainly does raise suspicion that such people are at it again. So a lot of people just ignore this kind of stuff now, probably to the benefit of most here but in the process likely cutting some legitimate newbies off.
VKRUE- If I recall correctly, early July was when "wellydeckhand" was booted out and as far as I can tell that name is no longer in the members list.

[westlawn5554X]

Sorry, my english is quite rusty, my background study of languages is in Singapore, thus the funny accent. Slingish I presume.

[VKRUE]

Marshmat: It appears that you are correct... July 10th to be exact. I (for what ever reason) was thinking that Welly was banned in the later part of June (several weeks earlier).... my mistake. But, I never associated Westlawn5554x with being Welly... that was someone elses doing.

I have though, suspected other posts / replies as being Welly in disguise strickly because of the "accent" and nature of speaking. As I first stated, I was not trying to stir up trouble. Honestly :!:

[westlawn5554X]

VKRUE,

I would be amaze that all American can sound very American with some Hispanish could be non-American?

I mean if we can seperate people by langugae and native accent then there would be no escape from genocide in Europe yes?

You look like an Asian are you an American or wellydeckhand in disgues?

[Willallison]

Bloody Hell! Haven't you blokes got anything better to do than worry about where Welly is?:confused:
And leave poor old 5554X alone - so what if he is Welly - I certainly haven't seen anything he's written that's upset me.

[Figgy]

so what if he is Welly - I certainly haven't seen anything he's written that's upset me.
There it is..I think that sums it all up nicely.
5554X is good people, I know he's been more than generous helping me and I appricate it too. No one is worrying where Welly is, it's just come up with a few members and now it's come out in the open. I dont think anybody has meant any disrespect towards 5554X, but the fact that we aired our concerns can maby help us to move on from the whole fiasco.

[VKRUE]

Well, I guess that my fingers should have been working on the boat out in the garage instead of typiing on the keyboard in the office....:confused:

Didn't mean to start trouble...............................................

[Figgy]

You didnt start any trouble VKRUE, none at all.

[Frosty]

Would Americans mostly please remember that not every one lives there. There are other countries in the world. When you address ca, ny,wc, sc what ever,--- I havnt a clue where you are. I would like to know where the people are that I am talking to.

Theres a new guy on the block that just has the address- Yahoo.com

People asking for advice should at least be aware that this is a world wide forum, abreviating things is confusing. You will get a better response.

Theres a little button on the bottom right for 'edit' you can go back and clear up all the mistakes there,-- (without any one Knowing)

Oh by the way what dose 'lol' mean.

[Figgy]

Laugh Out Loud or laughing out loud

[hansp77]

If your serious,

Oh by the way what dose 'lol' mean.

Haa Haa Heh! (that was so funny it made me Laugh Out Loud in front of my computer...)

Seriously, though I have been on computers since the beginning, I never got into forums or chatting until I bought my boat-
so I never knew what the hell people were saying most of the time- lol included.
Try
http://www.netlingo.com/

IMHO a very usefull place...:rolleyes:

edit- beat me to it Figgy...

[Figgy]

Sweet find Hans!! "IMHO" was killing me! Every time I saw it I wondered what it was, but never remembered to look it up. SFETE

[Frosty]

Oh Ok ,---makes sence now then!! Who makes this stuff up? Isnt plain English sufficient?

[hansp77]

SFETE

ROR, you had me with that one, I had to check it.

[marshmat]

Plain English online? You must be joking! ;) I mean, you can save sooooo many keystrokes by just using little acronyms for everything....
(On a related note, what's with the high school kids starting to speak in IM lanuage, in real life? Even five years ago it wasn't like that....)

[hansp77]

EDIT- delete...
computer problems.
%^$^&%$^&%

[Guillermo]

VKRUE,
Out of topic, but thinking about your 'signature':
"The quality of a person's life is in direct proportion to their commitment to excellence" Vince Lombardi :)

I've found I rather prefer the following:
"The quality of a person is in direct proportion to his/her devotion to others" :)

Cheers

[Frosty]

I dont read them,-- well only once then it goes right out of the head, I dont like them and I dont want to know.

What is it for anyway, is it not trying to educate someone, give the peasants some advice, isnt it a bit condescending to assume you can.

They are very clever words ---some times but the poster didnt write them.

Now if they would make them up for themselves then that could be funny.

[Jeff]

Would Americans mostly please remember that not every one lives there. There are other countries in the world. When you address ca, ny,wc, sc what ever,--- I havnt a clue where you are. I would like to know where the people are that I am talking to.
http://www.usps.com/ncsc/lookups/usps_abbreviations.html
I dont read them,-- well only once then it goes right out of the head, I dont like them and I dont want to know.

What is it for anyway, is it not trying to educate someone, give the peasants some advice, isnt it a bit condescending to assume you can.
I have no idea what this is in reference to...

[Frosty]

Well, you have taken a 2 quotes from two different posts.

Taking the first, this says ' When you address ca,ny,wc,sc what ever' I was refering to the address on the top of the post . This I understand is supposed to give the reader some indication as to where they are. Great Lakes is where? we have some Great lakes in Thailand, great for fishing? or great for camping??? What is that?

The second was supposed to be a carry on from the previous post. As the post finished strongly on subject I just picked it up and carried it on. Sorry if that was confusing to you.

This is about the signiture that people add to thier post. I was adding my opinion of them. It would appear however that most posters in most forums have adopted this idea. I feel they are not necessary and are pointless.

Wet chicken never fly at night.

[Ari]

Wet chicken never fly at night.
Well Jack I do agree with you about those accronim for address. After a while I just couldn't be bothered with it anymore. Anyhow I had tried..it is still very hard to remember all those short forms. Not many will know the place if I had just put in P.D or KL.or JB..maybe KK.. eventhough those accronim are well known in Malaysia.
Wet chicken never fly at night Jack..? are you sure..? Seen on TV during news time last night..those chicken running around in trying to avoid the police drag net..! not very sure wether their feathers is already wet at the time..The enforcement agency manage to catch the mother hen and a few cockerel :cool: .

[westlawn5554X]

The acro is useful for shortening address, yes, but international viewer might feel strange, anyway now gonna learn that too... ebay use it all the time.

[Figgy]

Signatures mostly reflect a persons ideology.
Take mine for example, in its entirety;
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution.
"What Life Means to Einstein" in The Saturday Evening Post (26 October 1929)
In my opinion, thats a beautiful statement that reflects me well.
I like to read peoples signatures for the insight it provides me into the mindset of the people posting. (if that makes sense)

[Jeff]

When you address ca,ny,wc,sc what ever' I was refering to the address on the top of the post . This I understand is supposed to give the reader some indication as to where they are. Great Lakes is where? we have some Great lakes in Thailand, great for fishing? or great for camping??? What is that?
Point taken. Of course, in under 5 seconds you can find the answer with a quick google search (the link I posted took one click to find), so I don't see it as a real problem, but you are correct, it's easy to forget that common knowledge in our part of the pond isn't global.

This is about the signiture that people add to thier post. I was adding my opinion of them. It would appear however that most posters in most forums have adopted this idea. I feel they are not necessary and are pointless.

If you don't want to see signatures, click on your User CP (user control panel) and under options uncheck signatures and/or avatars and you will no longer see them.

[Frosty]

Jeff --While I have your attention --and thanks for that info on cancelling the signitures by the way, I would never had guessed that was possible, any way I was going to say how can you see who deducted points from the reputation?

Apparantly I have just had a whacking 7 points reduced from a very modest 20 for apparantly being rude to you!! Do you think I was rude to you?

Do we have to suffer these fools who find rudeness where non was meant, then put themselves up as judge ,jury and executioner.

Or possibly using an entirely different post and or thread to suggest that some one else made the deduction.

Or using this discussion with you the Boss, an ideal time to make a deduction, encouraging me to think that it was you who made the deduction and therfore increasing the 'ouch factor'.

I understand the dilema however, anonimity will be open to manipulation and naming the deductor would cause fights.

The result of this is of course to make me now suspicious of every one. certainly dampening my enthusiasm to participate. I really dont see that this could have possibly been the intention of these points. Shall I retaliate pehaps? ,---at random--deducting from any one who seems suspicious? No one would know it was me !!!

I guess it is pure coincidence that the deductions were made at 4.42 and your reply post was 4.52.

[Jeff]

No, no coincidence at all -- I am sorry I didn't sign it. Short on sleep, I took the post where you replied "Sorry if that was confusing to you" to be a sarcastic jab. Sorry if I misread you. I've removed the - reputation I gave.

[Frosty]

I am learning so much today.

"Sorry if that was confusing to you" was considered by you to be "rude"? so you deducted approx 40% of my points!

Oh Ok.!!! Well this is very enlightening I was never trueley aware of just what reason one would have to deduct from anothers reputation.

So a sarcastic jab should be reason enough for a deduction, -- a massive reduction it would seem!! You might be able to clarify this but I dont think as a normal senior member that I have the ability to deduct such a large ammount --do I?

In that case the Gentleman that told me to get my head out of my ass (his spelling not mine) and that my breath really stinks should have a deduction made you think? I was going to let it go, and I will, as men are men and I would really prefer it that way.

I am not a writer by any sense of the word. I am merley tying to make my point as breifly as possible. Some times I succeed and sometimes I dont.

This post is not meant to contain rudeness or sarcasm, niether implied or suggested.

[Jeff]

"Sorry if that was confusing to you" was considered by you to be "rude"? so Yes, I did not read it as a genuine comment. Again you have my apology - I'm sorry I misread your intentions (and I suppose even if it was not a genuine comment I brought it on myself by giving you a link to the state codes without noticing who I was replying to.)

In that case the Gentleman that told me to get my head out of my ass (his spelling not mine) and that my breath really stinks should have a deduction made you think? I was going to let it go, and I will, as men are men and I would really prefer it that way.
I don't want the forum to become a place where people insult eachother. If I were in your shoes and someone said that to me, yes I would click the reputation button and give them some feedback.

[Guillermo]

Well,
I'm quite surprised too, Jeff, sorry to tell you this.
I didn't imagine the Moderator was supposed to come in and give or take big amounts of points. I thought your mission was advertising people when somebody is threatenig the Forums' rules (either by means of a post or a private message) and banning them, if this becomes necessary. But I think taking big bunchs of points is not the adequate way to handle things, in my opinion.

Of course you can give/take points as anyother if you agree/disagree with what somebody has posted, but not going any further than that, as I think you should be the first one to follow your own rules.

On the other hand I think the reputation points scheme, although maybe subject to some criticism and improvement, has been good for the sake of the Forums. Those annoying 'proffesional' or compulsive offenders are now out of the game, or performing a much quieter language, with has been excellent. It is not important how many points somebody has or has not (In fact I never look at the posters' reputation points) but the effect giving/taking has in his behaviour.

Next thing that would be great is if you try to bring back again to the Forums some good and interesting voices from qualified professionals lost in those crazy months of personal agressions and bad language.

Cheers.

[Jeff]

Remember the "big bunchs of points" was "7."

The original problem as I perceived it was that a group of new people had joined the forum and rapidly changed the tone for the worse with rapid posting of "personal aggressions" (I think is a good way to put it), so the point system was set as:

For every X number of days, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power: 180

For every X number of posts, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power: 500
(images uploaded to the gallery also increment the post count by 1)

For every X points of reputation, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power: 100

How much reputation must a user have before his reputation hits count on others? 10

How many posts must a user have before his reputation hits count on others? 50

Negative votes count 50% of positive to weight the system towards the positive.

Thus my click was weighted 11 points for registering in 2001 when we moved to the vbulletin software from the old boardpower software, 2 points for post count, 1 point for reputation = 14 / 2 = 7 with one negative vote.

[Frosty]

Altering power--hits count--I dont understand a word of that Im sorry. Heres something else I dont understand --If the problem that ecouraged the froum to adopt the reputation points has now gone then why keep them going . Its obvious they are not popular.

For every X number of days user gets one point of reputation? ( understood that bit)

What happened to me then? I have been here since May 2002, this morning I had 13 points,-- Ok I got back the points from Jeff and now I am 20

I have just one deduction only (apart from todays disturbance) Would you say that being here for that amount of time with 20 points makes me look credible?

I am adicted to this forum and I dont have the time to put into it what I do. I thought this morning that by this time today I would be banned. I seem to have escaped this, however After all the time and effort I have put into it ( I have helped some people some times) I feel as though Ive had a bit of a kick in the teeth today for nothing more than daring to have a chat with the boss.

[hansp77]

Jack,
all I can say is
chill out buddy.
Calm down a little and don't worry about the numbers!

Though I don't understand the equations that Jeff posted, basically (I think) it means that the longer you are here, the more you have posted, and the higher your reputation- then the more weight your reputation giving or taking has.

So if a new junior member gives you negative rep- then maybe it will be 1 point deduction.
If a super-senior member (such as Jeff) gives you negative rep then it may amount to 7.

Negative Rep? yeah ok, it does sting a little. I have had a moan or two about it myself.
My main issues are when I get it with no explanation.
What's the point, I think, if you don't even know why or how you have offended someone.
Though I have never been hit with a 7 point deduction- most of us have copped at least a few smaller ones.

But Jack- you have gotten your explanation, and more than that you have gotten TWO apologies from Jeff. (and you got your points back!)
Ok, maybe it might be seen as unusual or innapropriate for the moderator to give out negative reputation- but so what?
In the end, this is Jeff's place, and I think we are all rather gratefull for him providing it, and thus maybe we can be a bit understanding that Jeff is after-all human too.
He felt that you aimed a 'sarcastic jab' at him- and then appologised for such...
Time to move on.
If you don't like the reputation points thing, then just try to ignore it.
I certainly try to ignore it.

I like it that people are generally respectfull and polite here- even when we disagree.
Jeff said:
"I don't want the forum to become a place where people insult eachother"
I couldn't agree more.
If one wants to fight and insult people, there are plenty of places on the internet for that (try the WBF bilge).
If the points system does anything to discourage insults, and it actually seems that it does- then I am all for it.

Thats my bit, and now I will shut up.

I don't mean to insult you at all, or start an argument- I like ya...

I just think that respect should be payed where it is due.
And in my books, Respect is due to Jeff.

Hans.


P.S.
If you want to see what the other option is- that is, free reign on personal insults and arguments in a boat forum- check it out for yourself.
http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/forumdisplay.php?f=5
A rather usefull forum for venting steam or agression- but in my books, rather useless for getting/sharing advice and knowledge on boats(especially if you are not American).

[Frosty]

Thanks Hansp,-- Its Ok Im cool as they say. My words for some reason always seem to carry aggression,--- I dont know why,-- I am the absalute most unaggresive guy in the world.
Hey do you like my new signiture. Its more of a disclaimer really. Just so I dont get into any more trouble.

[Figgy]

you have gotten your explanation, and more than that you have gotten TWO apologies from Jeff. (and you got your points back!)

Seriously, thats HUGE! Very cool of Jeff.
Love the new Sig. Jack!

[westlawn5554X]

Maybe should spend sometime in ebay looking at stuff help you cool down and make your credit card feel heavy with bills of junk... I mean big time junk collection:)

I know i got hit twice but heh i am new and it doesnt stint that much, nothing to lose as long as we gain knowledge.

[Guillermo]

...Of course you can give/take points as anyother if you agree/disagree with what somebody has posted, but not going any further than that, as I think you should be the first one to follow your own rules...
Sorry Jeff, I was wrong with this, as I thought taking off reputation points worked the same for everybody and it was a matter of 1 or 2 points.

I maintain the other opinions in my previous post.

I understand your new system of "power of points" tends to protect long term useful contributors, which is great (I agree with you that newcomers insulting others to make themselves noticeable deserve a quick and strong kick in the ass), but maybe these Forums will tend to become a kind of "Walhalla of Mighty Old Gods" , "Sacred Cows" or the like. I'm not sure if it will be good in the long term for the Forums, as they may lose "freshness" and interest. We'll see.

Cheers.

[Frosty]

I gave someone some points the other day. I only intended to give them a couple as I thought he put in a good post. It turned out I gave him some thing like 8 and he now has more than me. Is there any way of controling how many points you give? I dont normaly bother with then but he was a fairly new guy and he didnt have many so,---- well he's got more than me now!!!

Most people say "Oh dont bother with them, I dont even look any more" well if this is the case of most members what are they for then.

Just exactly what they are for? Surely its not meant as a punishment( oh dear I hope i dont loose a point Oh dear that would be terrible). I understand that all this point thing came as a result of a few being insulting and too argumentative ( some thing like that) So the point system was brought in. 'Wow' they must have been terrified at such Draconian implementation of the point system and left immediately.
The forum itself keeps our annonimity so why care what you say. Nope never understood them,-- I appreciate that at Infant school a 6 year old might be concerened but thats not going to work here.

Am I right in saying that there are no other forums that have this. Ille bet I am!!!

[westlawn5554X]

is the point exchangable for coke and fish fillet in one of the boat yard? If not why seach the forum for point? just label the guy with a title more then senior... and they would be happy like forum GOD?

I seen some forum with non complusiory contribution of money and the range of money will exchange for a title under their ID like platinium or paper member. give a range from US$10 -US$1500 with 10 different title. You would be surprise how many would give the foru the fund to further upgrade. The free member would able still to access the forum without viewing the picture while US$10 charge being a paper member would let him see picture and access attachment.................. Fair and square...

Dont tell me this forum dont need xxtra funds to be better ok. If they pay a bit it would help and they feel a community that care... while the junkies and norm salesmaen would shun the site... US$10 min is nothing compare what we can learn from each other... :D:D:D

[Frosty]

There are many memebers who dont come here for help- but to help. If you start charging them its likely they wont come no more, why pay to help?

If the helpers dont come then the help wanteds wont come -- end of forum.

[westlawn5554X]

You enjoy the facilities lately?... see the hardware needed to run it?...

All member have the choice to help the forum by contribution or just use it without any money taken...

If your're poor but knowledgable, u still can post serious thread and be regard by other member without having the title Platinium member ... However, I do think contributing a bit donation doesnt kill the spirit the forum is intented for the scheme of donation can be such as this below:

1. Paper member........................ US$ 10-25 max ( picture access and other normal stuff)
2. Wood member........................ US$ 26-50 max ( just pure bigger donation label)
3. Bronze member....................... US$ 51-75 max ( Mmmm... still a bigger donation)
4. Silver member........................ US$ 76-99 max ( Wow... big donation)
5. Gold member.......................... US$ 100-199 max (get free T-shirt with forum logo)
6. Platinium member.................... US$ 200-350 max (get Mug and other stuff?)
7. Diamond member.................... US$ 351-499 max ( min for boat or yacht builder)
8. Titanium member.................... US$ 500-750 max
9. PURE GOLD member................ US$ 751-999 max
10. PURE Platinium member.......... US$ 1000-1999 max
11. Forum Guardian member......... US$ 2000-5000 max
12 Ultimate Guardian member....... US$ 5001-9999 max

13. Subsidized member............... US$ Free.............
(can do everything but cannot take picture or see gallery).

I know I wanted to donate and get myself labelled..... do you want to contribute a bit to say thanks? it is not even complusory

P.S. Understand this, this forum doesnt have a lot of advertisement like other forum, so the running may need a bit of kind help from us... what do you think?

[Vega]

I gave someone some points the other day. I only intended to give them a couple as I thought he put in a good post. It turned out I gave him some thing like 8 and he now has more than me. Is there any way of controling how many points you give? I dont normaly bother with then but he was a fairly new guy and he didnt have many so,---- well he's got more than me now!!!


Hey Jack, you can not give 8 points. Only Jeff can do that. The points you give has to do with the points you have. If he got 8 points it means that several guys have given him points.

[Vega]

I do think contributing a bit donation doesnt kill the spirit the forum is intented for the scheme of donation can be such as this below:

1. Paper member........................ US$ 10-25 max ( picture access and other normal stuff)
2. Wood member........................ US$ 26-50 max ( just pure bigger donation label)
3. Bronze member....................... US$ 51-75 max ( Mmmm... still a bigger donation)
4. Silver member........................ US$ 76-99 max ( Wow... big donation)
5. Gold member.......................... US$ 100-199 max (get free T-shirt with forum logo)
6. Platinium member.................... US$ 200-350 max (get Mug and other stuff?)
7. Diamond member.................... US$ 351-499 max ( min for boat or yacht builder)
8. Titanium member.................... US$ 500-750 max
9. PURE GOLD member................ US$ 751-999 max
10. PURE Platinium member.......... US$ 1000-1999 max
11. Forum Guardian member......... US$ 2000-5000 max
12 Ultimate Guardian member....... US$ 5001-9999 max

13. Subsidized member............... US$ Free.............
(can do everything but cannot take picture or see gallery).

?

Are you serious? Or have you a twisted sense of humor?:p

[westlawn5554X]

no... seen this work in a forum for young kid bragging about girlfriends and they all 75% contribute monetary with the poor 25% stay good member and still get respected. Now that is a new thing

[Jeff]

Hey Jack, you can not give 8 points. Only Jeff can do that. The points you give has to do with the points you have. If he got 8 points it means that several guys have given him points.
Actually it depends on how many posts you have, how many reputation points you yourself have been given, and how long you have been a member of the forum (the idea, for better or worse, being that if you've been here for a long time, you are generally a contributor who loves the forum and not a new person wanting to disrupt it without understanding the forum culture.) For every X number of days, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power: 180
For every X number of posts, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power: 500 (images uploaded to the gallery also increment the post count by 1)
For every X points of reputation, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power: 100
How much reputation must a user have before his reputation hits count on others? 10
How many posts must a user have before his reputation hits count on others? 50
Negative votes count 50% of positive to weight the system towards the positive.
The rep system is far from perfect, and I don't think anyone should get overwhelming point-envy any more than post-count envy. But as a small tool to help the community self-police itself, on the whole it does more good than harm. Just as it can be used to give someone an indication that they might be heading in the wrong direction, it can also be used to say "thanks for posting this information" in cases where you wouldn't want to clutter up a thread with just a thank you after thank you.

And if someone clearly breaks a rule (or for blatent spam, fraud, etc. posts) I very much thank everyone who clicks on the "Flag for Moderator" link on the top right to report the post so I can be sure to catch these ASAP.

[marshmat]

Jeff- thanks for explaining that, I've been a bit confused about it too. As much as some people dislike the points, they seem to have found their place now.
5554x- how can I say this... WTF? Make people pay, and they will leave. Voluntary donations, sure, but if we had to pay to access this place I bet at least 80% of us would be gone, and at least one would start a new free forum. Jeff's kept it going quite well so far, indeed, it's thriving.

[Ari]

QUOTE=Jeff;113033]The rep system is far from perfect, and I don't think anyone should get overwhelming point-envy any more than post-count envy. But as a small tool to help the community self-police itself, on the whole it does more good than harm..[/QUOTE]

It's o.k Jeff ,you had set up a system, work on improving it if you had like to.
I believe we had seen the benifits of it.If there is hiccup here and there, it's normal for any new implementation.What's important is that to have a system and make the system live by updating and improving it to suit the situation and condition.A system that is too rigid or dead will become obsolete real fast.

[westlawn5554X]

not make people PAY... but some does want to contribute in form of donation as an option... with a option donation button avaliable? Those who doesnt want to donate still can access the forum and chat boat.....:rolleyes:

[CDBarry]

How many points do you have to have before you can enroll in the dental plan?

[Willallison]

Lol :d :d :d

[westlawn5554X]

good question... it seem all american is crazy of dental care perk within job proposition... very cute.

[Frosty]

Has my reputation point machine -engine -thinghy been disabled or something. I dont seem to get the opportunity to tell the person why I have given them a point (or taken away) any more. Unless something has changed and its all anonimous now?
There was once a time when you had a box that you could say why or why not you liked or did not like a post or thread.

[RHough]

Has my reputation point machine -engine -thinghy been disabled or something. I dont seem to get the opportunity to tell the person why I have given them a point (or taken away) any more. Unless something has changed and its all anonimous now?
There was once a time when you had a box that you could say why or why not you liked or did not like a post or thread.

Have you recently upgraded to IE 7 ?

If so, try right clicking on the "Post Feedback" button and then "Open in New Tab" ... that should get the feedback box to come up in the new tab. Just close that tab when you are done.

[Jeff]

When you click on "post feedback" you should see the option to leave a comment.

[rayk]

Jeff, a bit of even handedness if you are going to moderate the forum.

I gave lazeyjack a tune up last week for being obnoxious to another forum member. lazeyjack went spastic for three days in reply, and not a squeak out of you.

You did not moderate last weeks posts, so why delete mine today?

Jeff, you let that guy sound off last week and have not allowed me the right of reply in kind.

[Jeff]

Two wrongs do not make a right. I do apologize if I missed posts that you feel are totally off-topic, offensive, or a personal attack against yourself or anyone else. If you click the "Flag for Moderator" and enter a short message like 'personal attack' or 'spam' this does help me to catch things and I do appreciate the help in keeping the forums on-topic and an interesting and friendly place for all.

[rayk]

Two wrongs do not make a right. I do apologize if I missed posts that you feel are totally off-topic, offensive, or a personal attack against yourself or anyone else. If you click the "Flag for Moderator" and enter a short message like 'personal attack' or 'spam' this does help me to catch things and I do appreciate the help in keeping the forums on-topic and an interesting and friendly place for all.
Fair enough.
Thank you for responding so quickly.

In future I shall not take the weight of the world on my shoulders.
I will flag messages for moderation and leave it to your good judgement whether the post remains.

Sincerely rayk.

[lazeyjack]

Two wrongs do not make a right. I do apologize if I missed posts that you feel are totally off-topic, offensive, or a personal attack against yourself or anyone else. If you click the "Flag for Moderator" and enter a short message like 'personal attack' or 'spam' this does help me to catch things and I do appreciate the help in keeping the forums on-topic and an interesting and friendly place for all.

i should like to clear up a few points
Firstly the member rayk purports I insulted, was not in fact insulted, I was extemely mild with him, given that he had called me a dumbass, in neg feed and in a thread
Rayk then waded in with a vicious attack upon myself
I retaliated, naturally, since then he has posted in 4 threads attempting to discredit me, and has in fact called me amongst other things, a liar. I did not retaliate But such accusations are in a real world libellous
Anyone who could post such filthy vitriole really should not be here* A LYING TURD* Is one of the things he put in Vegas' forum, still I did not retaliate for there is nothing one to do to win against this sort of depravity
I only ever post the truth, always my posts are based upon knowledge and experience
i can see that Longliner is an intelligent man, we just have totally different views on many things, BUT I think we both have a heart and we can I,m sure forget our differences
With others who have so much hatred in their makeup, there is nothing I can do to help, just feel sorry for them
I have received much backup in IM
I thinkyou should remove the neg feedback thing from this site What purpose can it achieve? We all have different politicall positions, and to post neg feed because one does not agree, is plainly churlish, immature and just plain wrong.All that happens is that SIDES form and these factions then club together to reduce ones feedback Wheras, pos feed should be given to real contribution

[rayk]

and dont EVER wind me up else I will come there and show you my petticoat DIPSTICK!!lazeyjack, you have threatened to visit me three times. What did you intend to do when you get here?
I posted a single post last week reminding you to mind your manners, and had to put up with you following me around the forum with personal attacks. Much the same as longliner45 had to put up with.
Your behaviour is really rather woeful. Here and in other forums where you have posted.
Negative feedback has been a really hard thing for you to handle. Maybe you should stop posting personal attacks on members. You got a taste of your own medicine.
People who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.

There is a common thread to your online presence lazeyjack.
It is not sociable.

[lazeyjack]

lazeyjack, you have threatened to visit me three times. What did you intend to do when you get here?
I posted a single post last week reminding you to mind your manners, and had to put up with you following me around the forum with personal attacks. Much the same as longliner45 had to put up with.
Your behaviour is really rather woeful. Here and in other forums where you have posted.
Negative feedback has been a really hard thing for you to handle. Maybe you should stop posting personal attacks on members. You got a taste of your own medicine.
People who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.

There is a common thread to your online presence lazeyjack.
It is not sociable.

you are truly sick, I FOLLOWED YOU? for Gods sake you posted what can only be described as pure hatred in 4 forums, look I dont give a hoot what you post and i do not read your vitriolic mush, now please do leave me alone eh. I tell you what, do not read mine and I PROMISE I will not post your manical pms, deal?

[Guillermo]

Jeff,
I've been visiting the 'who's on line' facility, and I noticed the annoying presence of Yahoo! Slurp Spider. What is this? Can it be avoided?
Cheers

[Jeff]

This "Yahoo! Slurp Spider" is the Yahoo search engine's crawler. (http://search.yahoo.com) You can see that the spiders put a lot of extra load on the server, but it's quite beneficial for new people to find the threads as they search so we get potential new members and viewpoints finding the forums.

I could probably change the default who's online display to logged-in members only (there is a toggle in dropdown at the bottom to show members, guests, spiders, etc. but it's not saved as a preference to the database at present)

[Frosty]

I still have to seach to get the thread 'Idiot posts"

Is this something I can fix myself or something I have to live with.

Secondly only the other day the forum would not let me post. I had typed out a post and a quotation from another memeber but it refused to accept saying it was too short. It was about 300 words.

Have I got worms? or something.

Other members have made comments suggesting that they too had had small unusuall dificulties.

[Frosty]

'Forum Rules" is apparantly another thread that wont come up on my todays post page.

I hope I havnt broken it!

[Jeff]

Jack - 'Marketplace' and 'Forum Questions and Suggestions' do not appear on the new posts page. The idea was to keep "today's new threads" for threads about boat design; Threads in 'forum questions and suggestions' would be primarily interesting to me as the moderator and to the original poster (who is notified via email when there is a reply anyway); and the marketplace forum, being moderately commercial in nature I didn't think should be forced in everyone's face when 10 new items were posted; I figure if someone were in the market they will visit that forum, so we can keep everyone happy by having a place to post project boats and such, but not forcing it on anyone.

See my previous response at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=141469&postcount=252

As far as the message too short message, either you may have hit it at the moment I was working on the server producing an odd result, or else possibly you had an open quote tag (quotes don't count toward the message length) -- other than that I have not seen this behavior. Let me know if you get it again.

[Frosty]

Ok understood--- thank you.

[Guillermo]

Thanks, Jeff. Default only showing logged members would be fine, in my opinion.
Cheers.

[Frosty]

Jeff is it a big deal to change my name.

Its just that there is a few jacks now. A few people call me frosty.

If I need to re join or anything well it doesnt matter.

If you can do it easily,-- Frosty will do.

[Frosty]

Wow ---that was quick --Frosty I now am --thank you.

[Guillermo]

Wow ---that was quick --Frosty I now am --thank you.
But you keep looking ugly....:D

[lazeyjack]

Jeff is it a big deal to change my name.

Its just that there is a few jacks now. A few people call me frosty.

If I need to re join or anything well it doesnt matter.

If you can do it easily,-- Frosty will do.

does this mean I have to think up another name Frosty:P

[safewalrus]

I just hope that 'frosty' does not indicate that you consider yourself in anyway 'cool' - God I'd hate that;)

[Willallison]

Ah - but better Frosty than Frigid!:D

[Frosty]

I just hope that 'frosty' does not indicate that you consider yourself in anyway 'cool' - God I'd hate that;)

Awww thats great,--I hadnt thought of that--cool N frosty.

Thats me, cool n frosty---


Sounds like tooth paste!


I dont want any one else getting ideas about changing thier names. Jeff has got enough to do.

Youlle all just have to put up with the stupid names that you thought of,--- like - like -walrus---ha ha ha.

Isnt that big fat horrible thing with bad breath and rotten teeth?

[Jeff]

Thanks, Jeff. Default only showing logged members would be fine, in my opinion.
Cheers.Have tweaked the code, and should show members only by default now on the who's online page.
Wow ---that was quick --Frosty I now am --thank you.
We aim to please!

[Frosty]

Is there any one in charge of the forum?

Frosty I understand is no longer welcome on this forum. I have not actually been told in so many words so I am confused at the moment.

Jeff deducted my rep points with a note of anger to my opinion of the point system. Now with the forum being almost unusable, Well I am assuming the worst

Signing on and navigating is so slow. Normall use is impossible.

I have signed up as another person and can navigate perfectly with normal speed.. I have PM jef for an explanation but have not had a reply.

I would like very much to dis able the e mail notification of frosty. I am not sure how to do this, and with the pages taking ages to down load , could some one please help me out.

Firstly If in no longer wanted could I please be told so.

Secondly could you please disable my e mail notification on all threads and post.

Thanks for you help.

[Jeff]

Firstly If in no longer wanted could I please be told so.
Since you have stated:
I have decided to no longer give away free advice of my 40 years of boating and as a profesional engineer.

I shall now continue to talk utter bollocks with a few mates who also I strongly suspect have done the same.
And then gone on to create a new forumID simply to waste other people's time, it appears it is time for you to move on to another forum. I appreciated the time when you were making positive contributions to the forum, but if your only intent is to make noise and disrupt things and waste time rather than talk about anything to do with boats, you are no longer wanted.

Secondly could you please disable my e mail notification on all threads and post.
Done.

[marshmat]

Somehow you exist, Frosty, yet neither "frosty" nor the old "jack frost" appear in the Members List.... are you trapped in some sort of interdimensional time bubble on the fringes of the known universe?

[westlawn5554X]

Hi Jeff, do I need to feed on research everytime I post stuff under open discussion thread? I mean opinion is sometime denial because some think youtube and other stuff couldnt be included...:(

Yes another matter is the overflow of drivel to other thread... is this a serious thing to watch on? just curious... :(

[Figgy]

Is this what it's become?? This is stupid.
Knock my rep points, I never cared anyways. All I ever wanted to do is design/build boats.
-Fig

[Jeff]

Is this what it's become??
Which rules in the first post (http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=81895&postcount=1) do you disagree with Figgy?

[DanishBagger]

What post were you knocked for, Figgy?

[masalai]

Mr Moderator Sir,
Am I lucky and grateful to your polite blindness. I just came upon this thread and realise I must have been a REALLY naughty sod.

I will endeavour to keep my sinful ways to Drivel, Jokes or my own thread. Thanks for your patience. I must applaud you on an excellent forum, and having removed my rant at a "webdesigner from Bangalore?" I hope I outlined my appreciation of your efforts effectively.

Thank you very much & Seasons Salutations

[deepsix]

Apologies if this has been covered before, but I dont have the time to wade through 14 pages.

I have not been around very long, but I have noticed a fair amount of posts by people pushing their own commercial interests, and also employment related posts. Are these posts considered acceptable, or should they be rated negatively?

[DanishBagger]

Deepsix,

It kind of depends where they are, I guess. There's a subforum for that sort of thing.

And to everyone else (my "homies"): I'm back! Had to take a time-out. See you soon in all the usual threads :-)

Edit: I forgot – you don't _have_ to give negative nor positive rep-points. It's your choice.

[marshmat]

Welcome back DB :) Was wondering where you'd vanished to!

Deepsix,

There is a subforum on here for "marketplace", and for "services & employment". If job requests/postings show up in S&E, or if people post unique or unusual stuff for sale in marketplace, that's fine- I think that's what they're for.

Where I will report things to Jeff and/or dock rep points is when a list of 200 used & cheap cellphones pops up, or when some dealer posts his entire inventory of junk outboard parts on five threads at once. I haven't seen as much of this lately as during the summer, so maybe Jeff's anti-spam filters are improving?

Commercial ventures are a bit iffy, it seems. We do have a lot of people coming on here with some new invention or gizmo, obviously looking for buyers and/or investors. I don't mind this, as long as the poster has done their homework and is prepared to prove their claims and defend their new toy against our crowd of critical, well-informed and inquisitive regulars. The ones who come up with some piece of worthless junk and try to pawn it off for a small fortune.... those I have much less patience for. As do most of us, I think.

[Jeff]

Thanks DB and Matt -- exactly my feelings on the matter. The Services & Employment and Marketplace forums are the appropriate places for such threads; the only problems in my mind are when someone signs up to the forum only to post items for sale, non-relevant items for sale, or only to blatantly advertise a commercial venture without being willing to discuss it. The services and employment and marketplace forum are primarily for posting things of interest by community members to the community, or for example, to post a project boat, hardware, etc. that might be interesting to the community. But it's not intended to be a free-for-all ebay replacement.

Also I appreciate using the rep system when appropriate (and the "flag for moderator" button if a thread could use my attention ASAP to move, remove, etc.) but remember that everyone is a real person here too; don't use the rep button to take away points unless you feel the person is really rude, out of line, spammy, or otherwise clearly over the line and you'd like to point this out to them; using it wisely helps keep the forum running and for that I appreciate your help (and more so if you grant positive rep points and/or a comment for really great, helpful posts to just say "thanks for your post" for the best posts), but using it too lightly can hurt feelings and the forum.

[deepsix]

Thanks, I have seen it become a problem on other forums, so I was a little surprised that nobody seems to minds here. It seems that expertise from industry professionals is one of the best aspects of this forum, so it would be silly to risk chasing these valuable contributors away.

[Jeff]

Absolutely agree with you there; though I like to be as tolerant as possible, if you see a post that you feel will chase away current or future other members of the forum though it's self-serving nature, rudeness, off-topic content, or other, please don't hesitate to click the "flag for moderator" link -- you can type a very quick message or just enter anything and I'll have a look ASAP (or a second look if I didn't look closely enough when I saw the thread earlier.) This is always very much appreciated.

[masalai]

Jeff, The "issue" with unsigned negative 'post feedback' has arisin again, and the consensus of respondents leads me to the feeling that the removal of a capacity to post negative feedback would be a good move if it can be done....

A bit of anonymous or poster identified praise by giving points is a good thing. - - Negative responses can be presented by posting a reasoned reply in the same thread as the offending post.... or ticking the alert moderator button against the "offending" post...

Also could you advise of the number of times one can give points praise per month/week of whatever and when can we give to the same person again because of the consistent quality and veracity of their posts..... Basically the rules for posting positive rep?

Thanks...

[Jeff]

Negative responses can be presented by posting a reasoned reply in the same thread as the offending post....
In theory, it would be ideal ("just the facts") In practice I wanted to eliminate the "you idiot" type posts that can derail a thread from the topic at hand and also provide a canary long before ill feelings blow up into something worse. My hope was that a number would provide something noticeable enough so the community could self-police itself, but I do feel bad that the negative feedback can be hurtful too. It should be used for constructive criticism along the lines of "your post isn't helpful" not along the lines of namecalling and if anyone receives a negative feedback that is over-the-top or intentionally mean spirited, send me a PM and I'll look into it and take the necessary action. Reputation comments are subject to the same rules as normal forum posts.
Also could you advise of the number of times one can give points praise per month/week of whatever and when can we give to the same person again because of the consistent quality and veracity of their posts..... Basically the rules for posting positive rep?
It's currently set for:


User Spread: (How many different users must you give reputation to before you can hit the same person again?) 25
(there was a fear early on that the user reputation system would create a problem of cliques so this number was set fairly high to prevent this)

Daily Reputation Clicks Limit: 10

Minimum Post Count: (How many posts must a user have before his reputation hits count on others?) 50
(so new users to the forum can basically send you a note of approval or disapproval (over 5 posts needed for any negative) but only members with at least 50 posts will affect your numerical reputation number at all.)

[masalai]

Thanks Jeff, may I C&P the "rules settings" - Your last para - , into a couple of threads in the "dungeon" for general info?

[Jeff]

Sure. Be warned that the settings could change at a future date if someone abuses them, but I think they're about right at this point in time. I have found myself wanting to be able to give a few posters reputation points more frequently for their excellent posts, but I think it's better if the reputation represents that a lot of people find a member helpful rather than that a few people find a given member very helpful, so I plan to leave the required spread as is for now.

[marshmat]

it's better if the reputation represents that a lot of people find a member helpful rather than that a few people find a given member very helpful
Agreed. And thanks for enlightening us on the matter :)

[masrapido]

So, Jeff, how is that then working when your users like Sean Herron use the forum to start threads insulting other users, starts threads thatg use swearing, and insults just about everyone who disagrees with him.

Mr. Herron's "points" seem to be stable or on a rise, he uses his rude language indiscriminately and when faces opposing opinions hides behind personal insults and attacks.

If I do any of these things, I lose points. When he and many others do these things they gain points.

How is this little despotic site really governed? Obviously not by "standardised" rules that apply equally to all. I imagine that my profile would be blocked if I start a thread calling another user a boffin, or use words such as "fuck" in the title of the thread.

If you do not punish the people like that, then I'll take the hint and do the same. And will demand to gain points on amount of insults I throw at other users. Not that these points mean anything, really. I like my few points. They show that I have an opinion and that there are "democrats" out there who use your non-funcitonal concept to vent their disaproval of an opinion that is not to their liking.

Which leaves me always wondering about all those who "defend" the idea of "democracy" and "freedom of expression" but only as long as it is in agreement with their "view" on the world. As soon as one starts sharing different views, one is a target for those fakes.

And you sadly support their behaviour, while preaching here some kind of moral justification for the principle that doesn't work.

Well, now you have a chance to start practicing your "principles" and "rules of etiquette".

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/masrapido-cracker-24787.html

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/post-up-some-fuck-you-24745.html

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/bull-shit-artists-21896.html

And what is all this about anyway:

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/open-discussion/you-got-nothing-stupid-24643.html

If you really believe in these "rules and etiquette" you would block all (not only threads from Sean Herron) threads of zero value to the core reason for this site to exist: boat design and building, and all things related to boating.

But you let them flourish and with these your own credibility is diminishing by every post in these threads.

Diego

[Jeff]

It is always a balancing act, and I do tend to give more latitude for off-topic posts to those who contribute more on topic content. I think it's important to point out that the positive reputation Sean has built here is likely the result of the interesting posts, sketches, and ideas he has contributed to the commuinity, e.g. http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/page/1/ppuser/3673

[rasorinc]

wiped out my post???? why

[Jeff]

Rasorinc -- which post?

[masrapido]

It is always a balancing act, and I do tend to give more latitude for off-topic posts to those who contribute more on topic content. I think it's important to point out that the positive reputation Sean has built here is likely the result of the interesting posts, sketches, and ideas he has contributed to the commuinity, e.g. http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/page/1/ppuser/3673

So, it is okay to post offensive and personally insulting messages, heck even threads, for as long as you are a "positive" contributor to the "community"?

Sean himself is surprised he didn't get banned from the forum for his posts and his behaviour in recent year or so.

Sorry, but I see that as double standards, not a balancing act. Maybe there is a fine line between the two, but after the moralistic tirade in tis very thread on this very topic, the fine line has disappeared completely. I cannot see the balancing here when a user starts swearing and insulting other users. That too becomes a part of user's portfolio of contributions.

Yes, I know, it is your site and what you want goes. But what you seem to want here is not in line with your own rules.

[ratrace2]

Jeff:
You have no appellate process.

[masalai]

He owns, it and you agreed to the rules, (didnt you tick the little box that said you did agree to abide by the rules?)

[ratrace2]

There are no rules......just personal preference

[Jeff]

The recent situation where two active members were banned because of threats stemming from a single argument is very atypical for our site.

Over the history of the forums here with 28,357 members currently having registered, there are 243 usernames on the banned list. Of those, less than 10 have made more than 20 posts in total. 99% of the 243 banned usernames are one-time signups to spamvertise and an appeals process would not be productive for those. An active member would only be banned because of attacks, threats, illegal activity, or when there is no hope of resolving the situation less drastically. It pains me greatly to have to ban anyone who has contributed to the forum, and as such, I will never do it if I do not believe it is necessary to insure the health of the forum community as a whole. In the rare situation where we have two members who have both contributed to the forum but who are equally explosive when in contact with eachother, very rarely but sometimes you have to cut something loose to not lose everything.

[whoosh]

The recent situation where two active members were banned because of threats stemming from a single argument is very atypical for our site.

Over the history of the forums here with 28,357 members currently having registered, there are 243 usernames on the banned list. Of those, less than 10 have made more than 20 posts in total. 99% of the 243 banned usernames are one-time signups to spamvertise and an appeals process would not be productive for those. An active member would only be banned because of attacks, threats, illegal activity, or when there is no hope of resolving the situation less drastically. It pains me greatly to have to ban anyone who has contributed to the forum, and as such, I will never do it if I do not believe it is necessary to insure the health of the forum community as a whole. In the rare situation where we have two members who have both contributed to the forum but who are equally explosive when in contact with eachother, very rarely but sometimes you have to cut something loose to not lose everything.

i have it from a reliable source that you banned lazey because of not what he said to another, but because he exposed your reading reading pm,s and giving him negative feedback anon, which he exposed
So lets be honest here
Of cousre you have a following of rather spineless people who purported to be friends of mean beanz and lazejack, but when it came to crunch, were too afraid of speaking out
Are you proud of the way YOU ACTED; ESP YOUR NEG FEED ANON?
would it be fair to say that he did this site favour, buy finally driving you to stop the negative feed bit?

[whoosh]

Bloody Hell! Haven't you blokes got anything better to do than worry about where Welly is?:confused:
And leave poor old 5554X alone - so what if he is Welly - I certainly haven't seen anything he's written that's upset me.

second that, god what a pack of whimps, do any of you actually make boats?

[Jeff]

i have it from a reliable source that you banned lazey because of not what he said to another, but because he exposed your reading reading pm,s and giving him negative feedback anon, which he exposed
So lets be honest here
Of cousre you have a following of rather spineless people who purported to be friends of mean beanz and lazejack, but when it came to crunch, were too afraid of speaking out
Are you proud of the way YOU ACTED; ESP YOUR NEG FEED ANON?
would it be fair to say that he did this site favour, buy finally driving you to stop the negative feed bit?
I do not know where your information has come from, but it simply is not correct. When asked, I answered honestly and truthfully what my capabilities and common practices are as moderator. (again, as moderator I do have the capability to scan the private message database if necessary, but this is extremely rare and not something that I want to spend my time doing unless there is a severe problem. It would not be wise to send trade secrets or illegal activity via either PM or regular non-encrypted email using any ISP's email/webmail system IMO) I also stand by the specific feedback I gave him for a post that was way off. I'm not especially happy about losing him, but I felt it had to be done to keep the attacks from becoming a distraction from our core focus.

[ratrace2]

i have it from a reliable source that you banned lazey because of not what he said to another, but because he exposed your reading reading pm,s and giving him negative feedback anon, which he exposed
So lets be honest here
Of cousre you have a following of rather spineless people who purported to be friends of mean beanz and lazejack, but when it came to crunch, were too afraid of speaking out
Are you proud of the way YOU ACTED; ESP YOUR NEG FEED ANON?
would it be fair to say that he did this site favour, buy finally driving you to stop the negative feed bit?

Whoosh,
In my humble opinion, we must be careful when we use the pharase "I have it from reliable sources". This sort of language spacks of innuendo and does a disservice to those accused and those making the accusation.

In all fairness, we must understand Jeff's role as moderator and keep in imparcial eye towards his actions. After, and only after, there is some dispute that we can place in concrete terms with concrete names can we bring forth a dispute on particular actions.

In addition, everyone has to understand that this is a public forum with access to PM's by the moderator and FBI and other governmental agencies. In the event that some issue gets the attention of such an agency then BoatDesign.net forum infomation is subject to subpeona.

With this in mind, it would be irresponsible of Jeff to allow certain types of information to remain, or be furthered by this forum.

Understand, this is not an effort to take sides or dismiss the actions that have taken place over the last several months, it is an effort to help produce a mediation of the disputes.

Regards, Ratrace2

[masalai]

Thank you ratrace, reasonably put.... Sometimes we can agree to agree :D:D:D:D

[ancient kayaker]

Jeff: the forum rules and code of conduct are a miracle of brevity and I hesitate to suggest an addition, but they do not cover the ethical use of quotes.

Quotes are a great tool and some have to be trimmed for focus but it is also possible to add or change text to attribute a statement to another writer falsely.

The text within a quote should be verbatim.