Small passagemaking boats

[Greenseas2]

I have had several sailing vessels and have yet to find one that is small, yet long range under power with a sailing capability when the wind is favorable. Recently I have been looking at the British Colvic Watson 23.5 and 26 foot pilot house motorsailers. Great small boats tgthat are double ended, have solid bildge keels and and accomodations that are about like the Fisher Motorsailers, but infinitely less expensive. Does anyone know of a US boat that is similar and could have a 1,000 mile range? Any suggestions. I usually run from Florida to N.J. once a year and spend a lot of time cruising the Bahamas.

[Doug Lord]

I was surprised to find this googling "small motorsailers" :
Motorsailors
http://www.janice142.com/Sailboats.htm
I designed and built a very small motorsailer-LOA 20' that had a 15hp Yanmar and a good rig on it. Looks similar to the Fisher motorsailers that I've always admired except that it has a center cockpit with a wheelhouse aft. You could sit in the cockpit without having the view obstructed and when it got nasty move into the comfortably snug wheelhouse-suitable weekender for a couple with a couple of small kids since the two small "cabins" were separate.. Has a wheel in the cockpit and inside and has a 700 mile range under power. Still in Jacksonville ,Fl.
If I do it again I'd do a 20-25' cat probably with sailing reserved for off the wind. The fuel economy would be extraordinarily high and the comfort nice too.Inside and outside steering ,of course. Strictly for intercoastal cruising.

[Guillermo]

I designed and built a very small motorsailer-LOA 20' that had a 15hp Yanmar and a good rig on it. Looks similar to the Fisher motorsailers that I've always admired except that it has a center cockpit with a wheelhouse aft. You could sit in the cockpit without having the view obstructed and when it got nasty move into the comfortably snug wheelhouse-suitable weekender for a couple with a couple of small kids since the two small "cabins" were separate.. Has a wheel in the cockpit and inside and has a 700 mile range under power. Still in Jacksonville ,Fl.

Do you have some images or drawings from her?

[Doug Lord]

I have numerous pictures but no way to scan them.
The hull was origninaly designed by me as the TS-18-80 were produced by Thompson(T-craft) in Titusville Fl. There is a good picture of the original boat on a trailer sailor website-I'll try to find it.
The motorsailer version uses a swim platform aft to extend the hull length to 20' and evokes the impression of a Fisher. It has lots of teak on the sides and a large teak rubrail. The swing keel from the original TS-18 was removed and a low aspect fin keel was added with the ballast in an endplate configuration fastened to the bottom of the somewhat long and thick fin-which carry's water.

[FAST FRED]

Its not for sale but if you wish to visit , I have a dock in FL , just south of lake O on the Caloosahatchie river.

We have a MS that was custom built for all weather sailing and has served well in winter operations.

She is 33ft and has many unusual simple concepts for long term offshore cruising.

FAST FRED

[SouthSail]

33' Nauticat Motorsailer
Year: 1986
Original Price: US$ 99,500 (09/05)
Current Price: US$ 92,900 (02/06)
Located in Cape Coral, FL
Hull Material: Fiberglass
Engine/Fuel Type: Single Diesel
YW# 12184-1439447

[Guillermo]

....Does anyone know of a US boat that is similar and could have a 1,000 mile range?...
I find it somewhat difficult to get a 1000 miles range under engine alone for a 25 footer, at a realistic speed. ;)
As for a quick estimative, supposing you have the 25' in the WL, medium displacement and ideal conditions, you'd need well over 100 gallons to motor them at 5.5 knots :!:
On the other hand using just sails you can get even more than the 1000 miles and it will be only a matter of design, seamanship and enough provisions......
In the USA I think you may find also the Albin 25 MS & Vicksunds in the second hand market.
If you want to build one yourself, you may try the Coaster 25: http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat2/coaster.html#avail
You may also be interested in Ted Brewer's design Kodiak, from Nimble boats: http://www.nimbleboat.net/boats.asp
Cheers

[Gilbert]

You might find it interesting to take a look at Tim Nolan's HEATHER Just type his name and the boat's name on your search engine and you should be able to find some pictures. Tim told me it weighs about 3000 pounds and 'sails really well'. I have no idea what HEATHER's range under power is, but it is a very remarkable boat.

[Guillermo]

You might find it interesting to take a look at Tim Nolan's HEATHER Just type his name and the boat's name on your search engine and you should be able to find some pictures. Tim told me it weighs about 3000 pounds and 'sails really well'. I have no idea what HEATHER's range under power is, but it is a very remarkable boat.
Very interesting design. I didn't know it. I've posted it in my M&M pages. Thanks Gilbert.

[H2O_BABIES]

Mr. Gillermo, your post on nimble boat works are good stuff. I found it interesting that the size and compact design is superb for trailability and easy to used in River and Ocean-crossing.

Do you know of other design that is better for a passagemaking? This maybe the boat I am looking. I need a bigger design to load more logistic but very compact design to fit the tight area perfectly.
GOODLUCK & THANKS

H2O

[Wellydeckhand]

Check out Moose Island Design.................... nice curve and line, warm classic of wood, roomy and have passagemaking model...............................:) I should get discount for that boat plan:D:D:D

[Guillermo]

....your post on nimble boat works are good stuff. I found it interesting that the size and compact design is superb for trailability and easy to used in River and Ocean-crossing.
Do you know of other design that is better for a passagemaking? This maybe the boat I am looking. I need a bigger design to load more logistic but very compact design to fit the tight area perfectly...
Although an interesting and clever design, I find Nimble boats rather coasters than passagemakers. I'd look for a heavier, long keeled and forgiving type for passagemaking, although anyhow crew punisment when in a storm (always possible when in a crossing longer than four-five days, at least in this part of the world) is always big for a 25 footer or the like, whatever the design.
Have a look at my M&M pages for more motorsailers models.
Cheers.

[Greenseas2]

Guillermo. Thanks for the response, but being a well seasoned ship captain, I wouldn't be caught more than a few huundred feet off shore in either an Albin or Nimble. The Closest would be a Colvic Watson modified to hold 100 gallons of biodiesel. (Currently use biodiesel in my S2 9.2C) As it turns out, Willard puts out a publication that compares speed to range. By reducing speed to 4 1/2 knots on their 30 footer, you can actually go close to 2,000 miles. Remember the S/L and D/L formulas. At this point in time, my company is currently having a 25 foot design drawn up for production to fill the domestic gap. It's not too different than the Colvic Watson 23.5 but longer for fairer lines and better hydrodynamics. Probably also be a twin keel to enable it to stand up on the hard.

[Guillermo]

...but being a well seasoned ship captain, I wouldn't be caught more than a few huundred feet off shore..
Tht's why I'm wondering about the needing of 1000 theoretical miles for a coaster. Probably 300-400 miles is quite enough...:confused:

At this point in time, my company is currently having a 25 foot design drawn up for production to fill the domestic gap. It's not too different than the Colvic Watson 23.5 but longer for fairer lines and better hydrodynamics. Probably also be a twin keel to enable it to stand up on the hard.
I'd like very much to know about your company's design when ready.
Cheers.

[Greenseas2]

If you want to see a neat little motorsailer, look up the Hardy Motorsailers. They were built in the 18 foot and 20 foot lengths in the UK. They're almost small enough to be shipped via air freight. They also appear to be quite seaworthy and would probably be able to cross the Florida Straits to the Bahamas in fair weather. With the twin keels, they should be quite stable. One thing that impressed me with the Hardy 18 and 20 is that, for the short length, they have the appearance of a much larger boat. I believe that the 20 footer is the only model with inclosed head though. Neat little boat, but not too cheap.

[Guillermo]

If you want to see a neat little motorsailer, look up the Hardy Motorsailers...
Thanks for the info, Greenseas2. Nice little motorsailers.

[Greenseas2]

If someone wanted to build a small inexpensive motorsailer, they might ry building the Steve Redmond "Elver" It could be modifies with smaller sail, two steel plate bilge keels and a pilot house. It's already design to take a small 4 stroke outboard or a Hardy Diesel outboard. Without the centerboard, there would be sufficioent room to rearrange the interior with more utility. It would only be for coastwise travel with the possibility of the ICW and Okeechobee waterways. Might be fun.

[Greenseas2]

Might want to take a look at Selway Fisher's Teign River Gravel Barge design. Most Dutch Barges were motorsailers in the beginning. They have the advantage of carrying capability for large amounts of fuel for long distance cruising. These boats don't require a lot of power to move at a decent clip. Best of all are spacious accommodations for 6 passengers in the cabins, a salon/galley and a couple of heads in the space forward of the pilothouse. Behind the pilothouse are crew quartyers. The Dutch barge pilothouse is a greenhouse affair with large windows all around to enjoy the view. It would be quite possible to put a rather short sail on a Dutch Barge to help with the mileage when going downwind. Just thoughts.

[Guillermo]

Interesting idea, although I find barges only good for downwind sailing. More a kind of sails asisted motorboat than a motorsailer.
It has been said that a motorsailer is everything with an engine and sails, and even with oars and an umbrella :) , and the like. Narrowing the definition, I find a proper motorsailer should be able to do both things in an effective way, motor and sail, as posted in another thread.

[Wellydeckhand]

Ever thought of motorsailer in small chinese junk?:)

[Greenseas2]

The idea of motorsailers in any form is one of concessions where efficiency in one form is traded off for efficiency in another. There isn't a motorsailer made that is a really efficent sailer, neither is it a high speed motor boat. The principle idea behind motorsailers is taking your time and going longer distances more economically and enjoying that mode of transportation to the max. Anyone who tries to get the highest efficient out of a combination of sail and motor will never own a motorsailer as he/she will be driving themselves crazy trying to male improvement that are most difficult/impossible to do. The British and Nordics who probably have the most experience in designing and buildiong motorsailers have been successful in only making the deck and deckhouse look streamlined. They don't go any faster or further than those made 30 years ago. Take a look at the MacGregor Fast Sailers and the number of relatively new models already on the market. It's design flop. This speaks of customer dissatifaction with the product.

[Greenseas2]

Fred. I may stop over on the way to Fort Meyers and take a look at the motorsailer.

[Vega]

The British and Nordics who probably have the most experience in designing and buildiong motorsailers have been successful in only making the deck and deckhouse look streamlined. They don't go any faster or further than those made 30 years ago. .

This is not the right thread, but I disagree with you. They go faster motoring (less height and a bigger LWL for the same LOA) and a lot faster sailing, so fast that it is difficult to say if it is a deck house sailing boat or a Motorsailor (you have to look at the size of the engine to know).

On topic now, about small passagemaking boats (and they don’t have to be motorsailors), there are still some (very few) in the market (new boats), but they are heavy for its size (they have to be) and very expensive. So expensive that for the same money you can buy a boat a lot bigger, a boat that is as seaworthy as the small one and much faster, offering more interior space. So, I guess that it is a species in extinction.

[FAST FRED]

"There isn't a motorsailer made that is a really efficent sailer, neither is it a high speed motor boat."

True but a quite efficent DISPLACEMENT motor boat is not very hard to do.

The 90/90 concept means the ONLY sail losses from "pure" sail is the WEIGHT of the engine , fuel , batteries , tools spairs ect carried aboard.

Since there is usually an auxilary of some type on most cruisers to provide electric for lights and creature comforts like a fridge , it is not a big deal.
To reduce the DRAG of a propellor only requires good design or Money.

With "good design" the prop will be a 2 blade of large diameter and with enough surface area to propell the boat in heavy winds.
Hidden behing the deadwood and locked the prop drag is minimal.
"Money" gets an exposed feathering prop that sometimes can have the pitch changed underway.

Either way the only detriment under SAIL is the extra weight.

AS a displacement motor boat , the usual cruise speeds will be lower than the top speed under sail.

Frequently the sq rt of the lwl times 1.15 is the accepted for LRC , and requires only a modest amount of power and low fuel consumption.

Our M/S runs 6K with minimal effort , although we cruise at 6.5 inshore burning 3/4 gph. Thats almost 10mpg , fine enough for any boat, esp considering were spinning 2 alts and a freezer compressor.

Yes, 1000 miles would require almost 100G of fuel, with the associated weight.

We chose 25G as the norm and only fill the bladder tank when gong to a place where fuel is super costly, after all she Does ! sail.

AS a motorboat the only detriment is the area of the mast and rigging that gets pushed thru the air. The sail & rig weight is minimal , and the weight aloft helps ease the ride.

You CAN have a 90/90 ,

You can't have a 100/100 , thats life.

FAST FRED