Dinghy tragedy caused by stability fault

[zerogara]

Original story at (http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=16816718&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=dinghy-tragedy-caused-by-stability-fault---report-name_page.html#story_continue)

Could this mean the end of racing dinghies in Europe as we know them?
I have no idea what 4 person dinghy this was, but let's say grandfather and kid buys a fast 2 person skiff and drown themselves. Does that "fast skiff" need to be conforming to stability tests? Most dinghies I like can barely stand upright in 10knots without anyone on them.

Enjoy the story!

Dinghy tragedy caused by stability fault - report

Mar 15 2006

icWales


A DINGHY that capsized causing the death of its owner and his eight-year-old grandson did not meet stability and buoyancy requirements, an accident report said today.

The crew of the sailing dinghy Mollyanna were not aware deteriorating weather conditions had been forecast on the day of the incident, the Marine Accident Investigation Branch (MAIB) report said.

William Tinsley, 64, and his eight-year-old grandson Ben died while Ben�s brother Shaun, 11, and the boys� father Jason were saved after the capsize in force five to six winds off Puffin Island, North Wales, on the afternoon of July 2, 2005.

The MAIB said problems with the boat were not identified during stability and buoyancy tests in 2001. The report added the crew were inexperienced dinghy sailors and that the clothing they wore would have afforded little protection.

The MAIB also said that Mr Tinsley, from Buckley, near Mold, in North Wales, did not have his lifejacket securely fastened.

In addition, the boat manufacturer had failed to provide an owner�s manual and departures from the Recreational Craft Directive regulations were not recognised by the importer of the boat or the dealer who sold the boat.

:P

[JonH]

Could this mean the end of racing dinghies in Europe as we know them?

I would have thought it more likely that it means the end of liability insurance for the vendor without cast iron evidence that the RCD has been complied with:


In addition, the boat manufacturer had failed to provide an owner�s manual and departures from the Recreational Craft Directive regulations were not recognised by the importer of the boat or the dealer who sold the boat.

Perfectly possible for small craft to meet RCD requirements.

[mholguin]

:P

Don't see the point in the smiley in this case.

[Tim B]

Has anyone actually read the RCD for classes C and D (small boats in sheltered waters)? It's not a hard criteria to meet.

However, I'd like to pull out a few points before people go on about the designers not making the boat stable enough...

1. "did not have his lifejacket securely fastened."

2. "in force five to six winds off Puffin Island"

3. "inexperienced dinghy sailors and that the clothing they wore would have afforded little protection"

My apologies if I'm being cold and insensitive, but I know exactly how danerous dinghies can be. I am in no way supporting the designer, or importer, but I feel that some responsibility must be taken by the sailors themselves.

I would say from this map that puffin island was fairly exposed, and it's certainly something I'd have thought carefully about, and I have a lot of hours under my belt. The report says that they were in-experienced, and whilst it is only about half a mile out to the island, it's not, by the looks of it an easy trip all the way.
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=250000&Y=375000&width=500&height=300&gride=260657&gridn=375828&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=&zm=0&scale=500000&multimap.x=365&multimap.y=95

Now back to point 1. Sailing with a lifejacket/boyancy aid that is properly done up is about the first thing we learn. I know yachties can be a bit lax about lifejackets especially as the boat gets bigger. There are a lot of people the lifejacket has saved. Thankfully I've never needed it. There is no excuse for not using a lifejacket or a bouyancy aid. Even in mill-pond conditions.

Point 2. Force 5 to 6 winds don't do nice things to dinghies. It needs good crews to keep them flat and balanced and that's on the assumtion that it isn't dismasted. With a bit of fore-thought, you shouldn't get caught out.

Point 3. Not wearing adequate clothing is a common mistake. T-Shirts and shorts are quite adequate on a hot summer's day, but in all other conditions a wetsuit is a necessity. Often drysuits are preferable in winter. Inadequate clothing is uncomfortable and dangerous, we've all seen it, even in the middle of summer in good conditions.

Tim Brocklehurst.

[solrac]

sorry for posting a dumb question,
in my country, every time you intend to go out from port on any kind of floating device, you MUST fill a form at the port authority, stating all data, ship name & reg number, the ship´s aproval (inspected by authority not more than 2 years back) & the sailing license of the sailor on charge, no way they authorize you to exit the port without that, and of course, the inspections include bouyancy aid & lifejackets.
thought it was an universal rule.

[Oliver Moore]

God no. In the US you don't need anything. I once got yelled at by the harbour master for floating around the harbour on two barrels I had lashed together but there was nothing he he could really do to me.

[Andy P]

The UK ( presumably EC ) RCD regulations specifically exclude stability etc for craft made for racing.
Which is good news for the more interesting types of racing dinghies like the int moth!

but RS and laser ( and other ) boats do comply and have the stickers/info plates regarding weight carrying etc, since they may not always be racing.

[Tim B]

Whilst RCD does not specifically make exception for racing yachts (as I understand it), many of the class rules specify what they expect for stability. It is a difficult subject though, as often the crew weigh more than the boat does.

In the UK, like the US there is very little regulation over who can sail small craft where and when. It is generally expected that you exercise common sense and take advice from local people.

Tim B.

[JonH]

Tim B, I couldn't agree more. Conwy Bay isn't a place for a beginner. I have enough time in small dinghies to feel comfortable in sheltered water, but felt way out of my depth there. It's busy, it's cold, and the waves can get up in no time.

If the restrictions solrac outlines were in force here, my cousin would never have got his free ride in a Sea King (inflatable, Whitby Harbour - well, briefly in the harbour...) Dozy :?: :?: :?: :rolleyes:

[Andy P]

RCD can be found here
http://www.icomia.com/technical-info/docs/Directive%202003-44-EC.pdf

but the relevant bit :

Products Excluded from the scope of the Recreational Craft Directive.

Products are often referred to as being ‘EXEMPT’ from the RCD, however the RCD doesn’t detail any Exemptions but only the following ‘EXCLUSIONS’.
The following are not products for the purposes of these Regulations -
The following lists the products which are outside the scope of the directive.

craft intended solely for racing, including rowing racing boats and training rowing boats, labelled as such by the manufacturer.
canoes and kayaks, gondolas and pedalos.
sailing surfboards.
surfboards, including powered surfboards.
original historical craft and individual replicas thereof designed before 1950, built predominantly with the original materials and labelled as such by the manufacturer.
experimental craft, provided that they are not subsequently placed on the Community market.
craft built for own use, provided that they are not subsequently placed on the Community market during a period of five years.

[jehardiman]

Everyone should read the back ground.

This accident occured in July of 2005. They were offshore when a weather front moved in and caused a capsize which was righted. The loss occured after a second capsize which swamped the boat. They were in the water for 3 hours, they all were wearing lifejackets, and the boat did not sink. The 14 foot, Polish built, boat was just determined by the British Marine Accident Investigation Branch (MAIB) not to meet EU stability requirements and is no longer produced.

Edit: MIAB synopsis http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Mollyanna%5FSynopsis%2Epdf

But still...2 adults and 2 children in a 14 foot sailboat boat 3 miles offshore.

[water addict]

meet stability requirements in a dinghy?
all Moths are now illegal?

[Guillermo]

No, Moths are not illegal, as they are racing dinghies. What is illegal (In Europe) is to sail a Moth (Or any other racing boat not properly CE marked) for other uses than racing.

In the report from the MAIB there are several interesting notes:

- "A Statement of Conformity with the essential requirements of the RCD was issued by a notified body on the basis of the results of the calculations made in 2001, despite no evidence of calculation being produced in respect of the required flotations tests"

- "Problems with the boat, such as its difficulty to right following capsize and water ingress into the flotation spaces between the dinghy's deck and outer hull when swamped, where not identified during the stability and buoyancy tests conducted on the boat in 2001"

The MAIB report states that the manufactured and supplier (With their names) were advised by the authorities about the faults in the boat. Also the owner is blamed for not acting in a seamanship like manner.... But the Notified Body, which seems to have a clear responsibility in all this is not mentioned at all. Mmmmm.....:confused:

More:
I'm also confused by the mention to 'calculations' and 'bouyancy tests' at the same time. If you run physical Stability, Buoyancy and Freeboard Tests as required by ISO 12217-3, then you do not need at all to perform stability and load calculations to verify the compliance with the rules. You only do this when the boat is so big it's not practical or easy to swamp it. You then perform an 'standard' stability test to find displacement and KG position, and afterwards calculate the compliance with requirements.

The flotation spaces are suposed to never get flood (!). If they do not perform a physical swamping test, surveyors are supposed to test the integrity of the flotation spaces by means of other regulated tests within the ISO standards.

[Guillermo]

...but RS and laser ( and other ) boats do comply and have the stickers/info plates regarding weight carrying etc, since they may not always be racing.
C or D design class?
I understand they are D class, so only able to sail in protected waters with winds not stronger than force 4 and waves not higher than 0.5 m

[gggGuest]

No, Moths are not illegal, as they are racing dinghies. What is illegal (In Europe) is to sail a Moth (Or any other racing boat not properly CE marked) for other uses than racing.


Its illegal to *sell* it for uses other than racing. But once you have bought your pure racing craft, advertised and sold as such, you can use it for other things if you so wish - at least in this country.

[Guillermo]

Its illegal to *sell* it for uses other than racing. But once you have bought your pure racing craft, advertised and sold as such, you can use it for other things if you so wish - at least in this country.
Not in Spain. If the 'Guardia Civil del Mar' catchs you sailing a racing dinghy out of the race field, they'll fine you heavily. Not to talk about what'd happen if an accident happens and somebody dies, like it was with the family mentioned in this thread's original post. Captain/owner would be most probably declared guilty of homicide in Court (Unless death him/herself, for sure).
And I would very surprised if this is not so in all EU countries.

[Tim B]

Might be illegal in Spain, not so in the UK and a damn good thing too!

I don't like the idea that I couldn't use my racing boat for cruising, just because somebody legislated against it for being "un-safe".

There are often accidents in dinghies, some caused by genuine error, others, like the one in this thread, by in-experience. There is always a media-type pressure to protect the nation from accidents, and there is a growing tendancy for the politicians to jump on the band wagon to look like they're doing something. However, it is a dangerous precedent to set, because pretty soon someone will realise that people die putting there socks on in the morning. And what then? People die of natural causes. Well, we'll legislate against natural causes of death because they could be fatal.

Clearly, this is ridiculous. It is a risk we all take when we go on the water. Death is not inevitable, by any means. However, it should serve to remind us that attempting things well outside our capabilities is dangerous. There is only one person who can decide where their abilities lie, and that is the person themselves. Not the government, not HM Coastguard, not 'Guardia Civil del Mar'. The Captain/Helmsman has the final say, and it should be a reasoned decision. Now people get it wrong, and other people die because of it, the Fastnet 1979 was a good example of both good and bad decisions leading to life or death, but we still sail the Fastnet race today. And a damn good thing too.

Sailing is a dangerous sport. It always will be, but the main appeal (in my view) is that when I'm sailing I have complete control over my decisions and actions. If that's removed, I'm basically out of a job. If no-one wants to take risks then why bother even designing racing boats?

Tim B.

[Doug Lord]

Guillermo, that sounds so very strange-and unfortunate! How do people practice in their racing sailboat if they can only sail when racing? Most serious racing sailors spend hundreds of hours sailing alone in practice sessions-surely that can't actually be illegal in Spain? That kind of "big brotherism" is government gone way, way over the line.

[Guillermo]

Folks, I'm not defending the thing, just stating it.

To train racing in Spain you have to do it under the umbrella of a recognized Club or the like, and have an official 'sporting license' granting insurance coverage.
Many people here don't care about this and they sail their racing dinghies just for fun....And in my job I have to deal from time to time with people asking me to perform the technical works required under the Spanish laws in order to get their racing dinghies registered, because they have been inspected by the Guardia Civil when sailing. Usually that is not possible, because those dinghies have neither been designed with CE rules in mind, nor the Spanish regulations

A second problem on top of the possibility of being fined, or even sued if a serious accident happens when sailing a not registered dinghy out of the racing field or duly covered training (pure racing dinghies doesn't need to be registered), is that the insurance companies may even refuse to pay.

So, if your son is the captain of such a dinghy, and he invites that pretty girl for a gorgeus day sailing, you'd better pray all saints that nothing happens, because if the girl dies and their family or the authorities sue him (most probably), he takes not only the risk of going to jail or the like, but on top of that you'll have to pay the indemnifications in his name.

I would like to know what happens in other EU countries ralated to this. Anybody has more info?

[solrac]

As Guillermo stated, a very similar situation happens here in Uruguay (and also as I know, in Argentina & Chile). You must have a register certificate for your ship, a sailing license (exam is mandatory) for any kind of floating device, even 2 barrels tied or your funny inflatable duck.
The racing ships are on a different consideration, same as Guillermo said, you must be registered at a Yacht Club, who is responsible for all out port situations, (at regatta time always they provide safeboats & personnel and at training time you must fill at the port authority an authorization form)
For the minor aged sailors, allways, on regatta & training they must exit the port with a backup motor dinghy with an experienced trainer. no way the authorities let you out without this rules (you may escape out, but better don't come back to same port, on the sureness you'll stay overnight in a comfortable jail)
attached is a photo of the minimal documents required for a really little sailboat (3.70m fiberglass monohull, 1 mainsail only, even smaller than a laser...belive or not:cool: )

[zerogara]

The only thing regulations do is raise the cost for human activities and create markets and industries out of nowhere. A practice very common in most industrialized countries. Whether the regulations are meant to protect humans, livestock, the environment, cost of conforming to them is common. In 95% of the cases some may argue that not much changed.
If practice is the same thing as a supervised informal race within a club, now practicing would be safer by paying someone to watch over you, set marks, have an inflatable etc etc. You can still end up in a grave it just cost some more! If you are sailing you have to pay for the infrastructure to meet the requirements.
Safety is an illusion that sells as a commodity. Entertainment has a lack of safety factor in it.

[solrac]

Safety is an illusion that sells as a commodity. Entertainment has a lack of safety factor in it.

Sorry... seems like an ad for introducing a newbie to russian roullette as a sport, "don't worry it's a nice sport, some risks envolved but preety much fun"
don't agree that a sport like sailing has an "acceptable risk level" (what is acceptable? a minor injury a month? loosing a leg twice a year? a 34.9% probability of death on the first 500miles sailing?)
safety is not a comodity, it's a need for all human activities, what would be the figure if driving a car was not a such controlled activity? Why would I need a safety belt on my car if I (still) never had an accident? or better, why to spend money on such sophisticated ABS brake systems on a car when an anchor & a chain can do a similar task much more economically? (remember the flintstones car?)

[Guillermo]

Safety is an illusion that sells as a commodity. Entertainment has a lack of safety factor in it.
I couldn't less agree. Go and tell this to the RNLI and the like.
Attitudes like yours kill people. I find it, in my humble opinion, quite childish. We need a little bit more of sense of responsibility when sating opinions.

[Raggi_Thor]

In Scandinavia small boats where much safer "before CE". Then you would need a DNV certificate to sell a small boat, now all small boats are in category C or D.

I think racing dinghies is a different matter. You should know what you are doing when you use one and wear a suite and floating device.

[Tim B]

I must say that I can see what zerogara is getting at. "Safety" in a media sense is usually the result of a rushed decision by MPs to look like they're doing something. It costs the taxpayer and/or boater money, and hasn't actually made anything safer at all.

Entertainment (boating) is not inherently safe. Now I wouldn't say I did it because it wasn't safe, but I do wonder about jetskiers and the like.

The point is that you can't make boating "safer" as such because of people's tendency to drown occasionally when they fall in the water.

Tim B.

[Guillermo]

Entertainment (boating) is not inherently safe.
Absolutely. Neither is living.

...The point is that you can't make boating "safer" ...
I don't get your point.... What all of us, designers, boaters, boatbuilders, authorities, etc, have been doing all this time? I think increasing safety has been one of the main concerns and I hope you may admit boats and boating are actually much safer than ever, generally speaking. Even jetskiing.

..There is only one person who can decide where their abilities lie, and that is the person themselves. Not the government, not HM Coastguard, not 'Guardia Civil del Mar'. The Captain/Helmsman has the final say...
That's OK, when you are already at sea. But society needs to do something to avoid insconscient (or plain stupid) people going sailing without enough knowledge and without a proper boat. The same reason why the society doesn't allow people to drive cars without a license or to drive cars technically inadecuate, let's say without saftey belts, i.e. Because that 'brave' people not only risk their lives, but also the lives of the ones who have to come to rescue them if something happens. Not to talk about the money the rescue and medical services, etc., cost the tax-payers....

By the way, Do you drive your car without the safety belt? Maybe you can tell the policeman: "...Clearly, this is ridiculous. It is a risk we all take when we go driving. Death is not inevitable..."

Cheers.

[gggGuest]

By the way, Do you drive your car without the safety belt?


I think the roads would be a lot safer for everyone else if driver's side seatbelts were banned and every car had to have a foot long sharp spike projecting from the steering wheel boss...

[Doug Lord]

Jim, that is probably the wierdest post of yours I've ever read-and usually you make a lot of sense....

[RHough]

I think the roads would be a lot safer for everyone else if driver's side seatbelts were banned and every car had to have a foot long sharp spike projecting from the steering wheel boss...

Gasp! You mean people would have to stop hitting things or get skewered? Divers would have to pay attention? The insurance companies would kill that idea in a heartbeat. If people stopped crashing cars they would have no risk to insure against.

It's odd that people that know that ANY "accident" is going to cause them pain tend to be better drivers than those that buy 5 star rated crash-mobiles.

Great Idea, it will never fly.

[sharpii2]

I couldn't less agree. Go and tell this to the RNLI and the like.
Attitudes like yours kill people. I find it, in my humble opinion, quite childish. We need a little bit more of sense of responsibility when sating opinions.

I think the real problem here is how to make sensible rules that are easily understandable instead of relying on all kinds of 'expert enforcers' who's main objective often becomes doing the least work possible by denying approval anything they may have to put some thought (ie: work) into.

This is not easy to do. Building codes (house) that exist in my neck of the woods are a good attempt at this. Anyone who can read the local language reasonably well can follow these codes. Sadly, however, these very same codes are often enforced by people who prefer professional builders to do-it-yourselfers.
And they have been known to be very picky on the work of do-it-yourselfers, yet willing to 'look the other way' on the work of professionals (if they even check their work at all).

Power without any real accountability invites abuse. And that's has nothing to do with government being bad and business being good, or the other way around for that matter. It's just human nature.

Bob

[Guillermo]

Sunsail staff found guilty

By Practical Boat Owner (PBO)

Three Sunsail employees were found guilty today of the manslaughter of an 11-year-old girl. At the trial in Lefkada Town, Greece, Sunsail admitted no rescue knife was used and there was no masthead flotation on the Hobie Cat, which capsized at Club Vounaki in 2003, trapping Laura Morgan by her harness.

Only four of the five staff charged with 'manslaughter by negligence' appeared in court. Three were found guilty. Hotel manager William Hutton (31), watersports manager Rebecca Morgan (30) and assistant manager Kevin Jones (25) were given 18-month jail sentences suspended for three years. The other two employees, Ben Annetts (39) and Colin Bradley (28), were found to be not guilty.

Laura's mother, Lynne Morgan, who was a witness at the trial, said she was "hugely relieved" with the verdict, but did not see it as a victory. "I've lost my beautiful child and nothing's going to bring her back. There are no winners but I feel justice has been done for Laura."

Laura and her two friends were trapezing on the 4.9m (16ft) catamaran when it capsized and Laura became trapped by her harness. The boat did not have masthead buoyancy so inverted and dragged Laura under the trampoline. Despite desperate attempts by the safety boat officers to free Laura, she had drowned by the time they managed to unhook her.

Normally Sunsail's modified Hobie 15s carry masthead flotation, but the ones at Club Vounaki did not. However, for Lynne, the issue was that Laura was allowed to wear a harness. "She should never have been given it," she said. "It was only the third time she'd been out on a Hobie Cat."

RYA national sailing coach David Ritchie published a report on dinghy entrapment last year, and said it was fine for beginners to use harnesses "in the right conditions." Since the accident, Sunsail have made it their policy to ensure parental permission is gained before allowing children under the age of 18 to use a harness.

In February 2005 the RYA made it mandatory for sailing schools to carry a rescue knife which, in the event of a catamaran capsize, is essential for slashing the trampoline. "This allows the casualty to breathe, as there is no air pocket between the trampoline and water," explained Ritchie. "The instructor's instinctive reaction is to dive under the boat to free the casualty but it's better to try to right the boat."

Lynne says she's pleased all the evidence was presented in open court during the six-hour trial. "It's a small consolation but hopefully something like this will never happen again," she said.

Sunsail are disappointed with the verdict and have lodged an appeal on behalf of the three staff. In a statement they said:

"The company recognises this has been an extremely difficult time for Laura's family and wishes to reiterate that the thoughts of everyone in the company remain with them…This is the first time in the company's 30-year history that a tragedy such as this has occurred. The safety of guests is the number 1 priority for Sunsail in everything it does and sailing at its clubs meets, and often exceeds, the very stringent guidelines laid down by the Royal Yachting Association."


(22 March 2006)

[zerogara]

An 11y old on a catamaran!
Should catamarans be banned to "ensure" public safety, should boats with trampolines be banned, should trapeze use be banned? What about righting regulations for windsurfers?
Where does it end?
If one (2 or 3) go out on a high performance skiff to sail (practice) and must have a rescue boat behind them or have the practice be an organized activity by a club (club liability) it will shrink the market to a handfull of clubs around the world and their capacity. If you have been incapacitated with a 49er out in the open sea chances are nobody will rescue your butt. Unless 49ers (and the like) are mandated to have VHFs and other distress signaling equipment.
Should we also wear helmets and other safety gear?

I disagree! I think a little aluminum plate on such fast little boats with safety warnings is adequate. DANGER SEVERE INJURY OR DEATH MAY RESULT ... blah.. blah.. blah....

Those who seat at the table (behind closed doors) and agree on the rules are expressing their own economic interests through those rules. Everyone else has to pay (pay them who were on the table) and abide by their rules.
Give me ONE regulation and I betyou there is a whole bibliography behind the history of its establishment that explains who were the parties at the decision making process and their benefits.

The EEC is created and evolving based on this strategy. Regulate every little thing there is, and can be converted into value, because that creates an economy! If it works for a while everyone will follow suit! But the more regulation there is the more enforcement is needed, if we didn't have enough policing already. Have you guys read 1984? Read it again, if you read it 10-25 years earlier it may have seemed more of science fiction than it seems today.

And don't judge by how things may be done around you, find out what is legal on how to do it and what will happen when those rules will become strictly enforced!

[gggGuest]

So next time they have a masthead float and the boat gets blown off downwind, the crew can't catch it and drown...

[casavecchia]

Saying that laws and regulations are made to create an economy is like saying that boat hulls are made to create a resting place for barnacles.
A short sighted opinion indeed.
Marco.

[messabout]

I do not think we can not legislate, successfuly, against incompetance. Whether it be sailing, rock climbing, skydiving, and a myriad of other "sports", it is not an altogether safe thing to do. Far too many people overestimate their own abilities and judgement. There is very little we can do to legislate against that.

Guillermo has some solid ground from which to speak. I believe that he knows more than most of us about boats. Here in the US we have all kinds of drasticly unqualified people who are infected with the notion that they can design a boat. I'm thinking of a welding and fabrication shop whose people are very good at what they do. What they do well is welding. They built a metal boat "because they could". They had never heard of Archimedes and had no knowledge or concern about stability calculations. Not surprising that the boat turned into a disaster. Well, that is only one case of incompetance leading to a bad result. There are people all over doing similar stuff. We can not really save them from themselves.

A bad boat is just one of the factors involved in tragedy. I don't sail on a local lake anymore because there are too many PWCs and boats with metal flake gel coat. Too many of them have lunatic drivers with an overload of testosterone. I have often wondered why in hell a bass boat needs to be capable of 60 MPH. The people themselves are a major part of the risk equation.

I am not suggesting that we should not care about people who put themselves in harms way. We do care about them or we would not be writing in this forum.

I have sailed some pretty hairy boats like International 10 meter canoes, A- cats, and such. Somebody up there likes me. I never flipped the A-cat because I had enogh sailing experience to respect it genuinely. I held no desire to drown and I knew that that beast of a boat would dunk me with precious little provocation. What to do for the beginner who has little experience and/or fear? People with little experience see sailboats as a languid pass time. Little do they know that dinghys may well require athletic prowess and cerebral processes that surpass thier comprehension. Can we possibly educate them all ? We can try. All you veteran sailors out there, go out and introduce someone to the joys, the intricate details, the thrills, and dangers of sailing. You might just save a few of them from themselves. Davy Jones don't take no prisoners.

[Tim B]

A very interesting article.

A 16 foot boat (especially a cat because of the sail area) can be a handful even for grown men at times, perhaps the problem in this case is not about wearing the harness, but that they were allowed to sail it.

Also, being a catamaran, they are a pain to right, but even if they couldn't right it, there were three of them, so the other two should have been able to help (presumably they were ok). I'm going to take a random guess here, I suspect they panicked. There is very little else (except incapacitating injury to all three) that would cause a death by drowning with two other crew present.

It's not a nice feeling to be trapped under a trampoline (or sail) and it is quite frightening, but it's rarely fatal if you have a little experience behind you.

Tim B.

[Guillermo]

Give me ONE regulation and I betyou there is a whole bibliography behind the history of its establishment that explains who were the parties at the decision making process and their benefits.
IMO rules on stability of ships. Go on.

[solrac]

can't belive.... this kind of fundamentalism only seen on arab tv....
excuse me for a diferent point of view, security (think yet posted before) can not be viewed only as an evil invention of capitalistm for profit purposes !!!
not all what mankind invented all along history can be blamed as useless, evil or unfair, there are a lot of examples of progress as a consequence of that (or you still live on a cave, wearing animal furs?)
Any contribution to progress, science or technology fact a man (or woman) did along history has been congratulated for improving mankind in some aspect, even if the inventor paid with his life, and also blamed by selfish ****** who did not contribute at all.

[echristophe]

I built a 15ft plywood knockabout and am rather inexperienced at sailing, being concerned for what happens if I tip her when out sailing--what does a masthead buoyancy device consist of and how do I install one?

[DanishBagger]

You asked what rules were in play in other countries, so I will say what it is here in Denmark.

Here, you need a "driver's license" in order to drive a speed boat of a certian horse power. It is not necessary if it's a sail boat or motor sailer, a normal motor boat and what have you.

there is an EU-directive comin into effect soon, that, instead of the above (all boats under 20 tons), will make the above true for any boat (except speedboats) under 15 metres.

In essense, you can take anything sailing here if you want - except it might be hard insuring "anything", and we still have to be accountable for "good seamanship".

I have attached a picture, showing when a "speedboat license" is needed. The "HK" mean HP, of course, and the boat is a planing one:

[DanishBagger]

I built a 15ft plywood knockabout and am rather inexperienced at sailing, being concerned for what happens if I tip her when out sailing--what does a masthead buoyancy device consist of and how do I install one?

Usually closed-cell foam, but an inflated "bag" is also sometimes used. And you can even get self-inflating ones, working just like a those life-vest.

[tspeer]

I built a 15ft plywood knockabout and am rather inexperienced at sailing, being concerned for what happens if I tip her when out sailing--what does a masthead buoyancy device consist of and how do I install one?

The best masthead flotation devices I've seen are flotation panels in the sail. There are many possible ways to implement these. A sailmaker could add pockets in the sail between the headboard and first batten into which you slip pieces of closed cell foam. Or you can put the foam into a sleeve that fits over the head of the sail before you raise it. Or you can have a sailmaker put a grommet through the sail to secure clamshell flotation attached to the sail (http://www.mcscow.org/rigging/float.htm).

Flotation panels can be effective on surprisingly large boats. They are mandatory at most clubs on the 28 ft E-scow when racing in high winds. Here's a picture of an E-scow sporting its flotation panels even though the wind is light:
http://mendotayc.org/images/2005/9-5/IMG_1503.jpg

Talk to your sailmaker about adding them for you.

[echristophe]

Thanks for the helpful information - As I said my biggest fear about sailing a lot this summer is that she'll tip and i dont want the mast to go under. Am also genuninely worried because I really made the boat itself too heavy- I was working off a 40 year old plan and was really eager for the woodworking part but when she was all finished I think its weighs about 500 pounds with the 92 pound centerboard - which is a lot bulkier than I expected (i've never actually calculated its weight). I suppose I need an awful lot of flotation foam in the benches so she doesnt sink down if she does tip.

Have any of you had experience with righting a boat this heavy after she flips? How many cubic feet of foam do you reccomend? I figure with 62 pounds buoyancy per cubic foot of foam, i need about 6 cubic feet per side? Any thouhgs would be appreciated.

Picture below of her being test floated w/o mast stepped - 15ft knockabout.

Thanks - i'm New to the forum and am very impressed with advice I'm getting - a very novice sailor/hobby boatbuilder.

[Tim B]

I must disagree about flotation panels in the sail... they do work, sort of, but they also kill the performance. Instead, I have a ball-cock (standard plumbing ball about 100mm dia) with an eye on some studding screwed into it. Just hoist the thing on the main halyard and it works very well. It won't stop the boat inverting, but it will slow it down enough to get to the centre-board. An inflated bag at the masthead would work fine as long as it didn't chafe too much. The size depends on what you want it to do, give you a bit more time, or stay afloat indefinately.

Tim B.

[Herman]

I have sailed a Topper Boss for quite some time. This sailing skiff is equiped with bowsprit, too long a mast, too much sail, 3.5 foot wide racks on the sides, and double trapeze to keep the right side up.

Needless to say, I did swim next to it more than occasionally. However, the mast was sealed completely, with all the halyards outside the mast, and all fittings sealed. I only managed to turtle the boat completely once (Lake Garda, 700 ft deep, so I did not hit anything).
This sealed mast did a great job keeping the boat from turning turtle. Could be used on other boats as well, without looking awkward. (which I think is one of the main reasons not to equip boats with flotation up the mast)

However, a boat that can be considered "safe" is no reason not to rely on your own experiences, and not going on the water because there are circumstances that you don't like, is nothing to be ashamed for.

In other words:

No single regulation can replace common sense

[solrac]

.../I only managed to turtle the boat completely once (Lake Garda, 700 ft deep, so I did not hit anything)/...

made me remember, long time ago, I made an umbrella of a laser at beach... sorry have no photos of that shameless incident, (my kids began calling me Capt Storm) ;)

[Guillermo]

You'll find Mollyanna capsize full report at:
http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Mollyanna.pdf
I recommend a careful reading of it. From there:
"...the inaccuracy and potential incompleteness of the tests conducted in 2001 calls into question the validity of the Statement of Conformity issued by IMCI in 2001. The validity of the Certificate of Conformity issued by the consultant in 2003 is also questionable..."
From PBO mag, May issue:
"The Polish BEZ 2 (Mollyanna) is categorized as RCD category C (coastal waters, wind up to force 6 and waves up to 2m), but a RYA test on a 2005 model BZ 2 showed it did not meet any of the stability and buoyancy requirements for this category. Furthermore, given the dinghy's propensity to invert, its centerplate to retract, and for water to ingress trough the buoyancy spaces, the MAIB also questioned wether the dinghy should qualify for use in sheltered waters (Category D).
The BEZ 2 has now been withdrawn from the market while its documents are modified...."

In my opinion it's quite clear BEZ 2 is a faulty design, unduly CE marked, not able to recover after a capsize. Add the crew's inexperience to this, and we get the recipe for disaster.

[zerogara]

I don't doubt your opinion or anyone else's on how crappy design this vessel is, but I fear of the implications of over regulation.

> " the MAIB also questioned wether the dinghy should qualify for use in
> sheltered waters (Category D)."

Fine boats such as the RS800, Laser 5000, Topper Boss, or any other fast dinghy with wings, can pratically be banned. The joy of sailing can be restricted to tub like sailing tugs with a ton of safety equipment, unless you're engaging in close circuit competition.

Can a 100kg dinghy with 20sq.m of sail underwater (one heck of a dumper to any righting force) and wings be righted by a grandfather and grandkid?

Certificate of Conformity! I wonder when they said the German wall came down which side of the wall was it?

We are evolving into a society where people would rather do nothing and stay alive at their bureaucratic posts than risk having to find a replacement for the BORG! For people working on mines, off shore platforms, cranes, bridges, biochemical factories, etc. there sure isn't that much protectionism going on.

[Guillermo]

...Fine boats such as the RS800, Laser 5000, Topper Boss, or any other fast dinghy with wings, can pratically be banned...
Those are racing dinghies, conceived only with racing in mind, out of the scope of regulations such as the RCD, and should not be used for family sailing or cruising.

The joy of sailing can be restricted to tub like sailing tugs with a ton of safety equipment...
Like the one in the attached image? She's is CE marked....:eek:


..We are evolving into a society where people would rather do nothing and stay alive at their bureaucratic posts than risk having to find a replacement for the BORG! For people working on mines, off shore platforms, cranes, bridges, biochemical factories, etc. there sure isn't that much protectionism going on.
You've stated this kind of nonsense (in my humble opinion) before. I'm still waiting for your response to my previous IMO stability regulations question.

[solrac]

Fine boats such as the RS800, Laser 5000, Topper Boss, or any other fast dinghy with wings, can pratically be banned.

easy man, do not confuse, sailing a dinghy on a calmy summer afternoon on a beach with an around alone... both may have similar adrenaline levels, similar fun, but each activity has it's own risks, it's own limitations & it's own needs for security equipment... (wouldn't you try to cross the Atlantic tied to a wooden log yeah?)
As it sounds crazy & absurde to carry a zodiac tied to your kid's optimist, is alike absurde going on open waters without a lifejackett as it would be signing on a VO70 crew if you haven't learned to swimm... there must be different "grades of control" established for different risk-stated activities, as there are different boats, designed & fitted to suit each of them.

About the report of investigation (a matter particulary I have some experience on) after filtering all, in my humble opinion, can be joined on 3 main questions:
1. Issues related to the crew, the main reason may possibly be charged to the lack of experience of the crew (or the irresponsability of the port authorities who let them out? ) Can't belive there is no any license required to leave a port there, and no any instruction on sailing, not to mention a training on lifejacket use.
2. Issues related to the dinghy design, faults (lack of buyonancy, difficult to right, and so on) The authorities weren't advised on that? have they never checked this or any other twin dinghy before? As it was certified for "C" zone, somebody must have certified it or not?
3. At the launching time, the port authorities usually give you (if you ask for it) an actualized weather forecast for the next hours, and also if any advice comes from Weather Service, they are trained to act in response (have the prerrogative to deny you permission to leave)

[Guillermo]

.. As it was certified for "C" zone, somebody must have certified it or not?..
As I've told before, an Statement of Conformity was issued by IMCI in 2001. :rolleyes:
IMCI is No 0609 notified body within the EU.

[solrac]

.. As it was certified for "C" zone, somebody must have certified it or not?..

As I've told before, an Statement of Conformity was issued by IMCI in 2001. :rolleyes:
IMCI is No 0609 notified body within the EU.

right, it was certified. but no adequate floating, no adequate righting, really, nice guys out there certifying things you have...:D :D :D
tah makes me thinking if can be catalogued as an "accident" or "murder 1":rolleyes:
I do give thanks God for living here down on the 3rd world... christ!!! they say we are indians....:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Guillermo]

...makes me thinking if can be catalogued as an "accident" or "murder 1":rolleyes:
You got it.